/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-05-08 / end

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# Session Start: Tue May 08 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:32] <Hixie> anyone understand https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15645 ?
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# [00:35] <Hixie> lordy, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15704 is going to be fun
# [00:38] <tabatkins_> Hixie: Actually, "o.value = +a.value + +b.value;" is even shorter. ^_^
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# [00:40] <Hixie> yeah but that acts weird if the value is e.g. '0xa'
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# [00:40] <tabatkins_> Okay, true.
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# [00:43] <tabatkins_> So, throwing an idea out before I post it to the list.
# [00:44] <tabatkins_> We discussed in the SVGWG today about pulling SVG further into HTML. Specifically, allowing SVG elements to also work when in the HTML namespace. (Or, equivalently, adding all the SVG elements to HTML with the same meaning and rendering.)
# [00:44] <tabatkins_> SVG is totally down with this. Will it work?
# [00:45] <Hixie> what would it mean?
# [00:45] <Hixie> e.g. what coordinate space would one use?
# [00:46] <Hixie> what's the use case?
# [00:46] <tabatkins_> Baby steps. First, imagine we're still in the current situation where you need an <svg> ancestor to establish your rendering mode.
# [00:47] <tabatkins_> The benefit here is just that you can use createElement() rather than createElementNS.
# [00:47] <Hixie> oh, just moving <Svg> to the html namespaces
# [00:47] <Hixie> sorry, i misunderstood
# [00:47] <tabatkins_> And that three of the four element collisions become meaningless.
# [00:47] <tantek> so we can add xpath to the scrap pile?
# [00:48] <tantek> XPath: because <a href> was too simple.
# [00:48] <Hixie> tabatkins_: sounds like a painful transition, and it would require very close coordination between the groups, which is likely to be hard given that html hasn't really proven to be able to coordinate even within its own groups
# [00:48] <Hixie> tabatkins_: but in principle it seems like what we should have done long ago
# [00:49] <tabatkins_> Okay, so no killer problems besides, you know, actually writing things correctly?
# [00:49] <jamesr> are there any element name collisions?
# [00:49] <tantek> Tabatkins, perhaps you should propose SVG assimilation for the next HTML WG charter.
# [00:49] <tabatkins_> jamesr: style, script, a, font.
# [00:49] <jamesr> some of those may be in use
# [00:49] <tabatkins_> jamesr: style, script, and a are *almost* identical in the two. Merging wouldn't be too painful.
# [00:50] <tabatkins_> font is vastly different. Not sure how best to handle it.
# [00:50] <Hixie> tabatkins_: well i wouldn't expect it to be a smooth transition, certainly
# [00:50] <tabatkins_> Simple way is that createElement('font') just always makes an HTMLFontElement.
# [00:50] <Hixie> tabatkins_: solving the problem of createElementNS() might be done more easily in other ways than this though
# [00:50] <Hixie> tabatkins_: if that's the main problem
# [00:51] <tabatkins_> Nah, it's just one (annoying) problem.
# [00:51] <tabatkins_> Agree that createElementNS itself could just be fixed by letting it take "svg" as a string or something.
# [00:51] <tabatkins_> But it means that <template> and DocumentFragment.innerHTML no longer need to worry about parsing SVG specially.
# [00:52] <Hixie> why do they need to parse SVG specially anyway?
# [00:52] <Hixie> oh right it's this whole parse mode stuff that's being discussed in webapps
# [00:52] <tabatkins_> So that "frag.innerHTML = '<g><rect /></g>';" works the right way.
# [00:52] <Hixie> how do you know what context node to use, etc
# [00:52] <Hixie> well
# [00:52] <Hixie> you'd still have that problem
# [00:53] <tabatkins_> Why?
# [00:53] <Hixie> because you'd still need to go into foreign mode
# [00:53] <tabatkins_> Why?
# [00:53] <Hixie> to handle the /?
# [00:53] <Hixie> the /> i mean
# [00:53] <Hixie> not /?
# [00:53] <tabatkins_> Ah. That's not quite true. Instead just special-case the SVG elements to make /> meaningful.
# [00:54] <Hixie> yikes
# [00:54] <tabatkins_> Meh.
# [00:54] <Hixie> i'm still not sure we've 100% dealt with the fallout of foreign mode
# [00:54] <tabatkins_> The HTML parser contains worse. ^_^
# [00:54] <Hixie> i'm certainly not up for trying to rewrite all that
# [00:54] <tabatkins_> I'm definitely up for trying.
# [00:54] <Hixie> not without a really REALLY big payoff
# [00:55] <Hixie> i guess my feeling here is that overall the cost is likely to be way higher than the benefit, but that might just be because i don't see what the benefits are
# [00:55] <Hixie> but i see very high costs
# [00:55] <tabatkins_> So, the payoff is that this makes it easier to *then* do seamless mixing without the <svg>/<foreignObject> barrier.
# [00:55] <Hixie> i don't really follow why that's a win though
# [00:55] <tabatkins_> The rendering issue is then pretty easy from a CSS angle.
# [00:55] <Hixie> or what it would even really mean
# [00:56] <Hixie> why would you want a <rect> in the middle of a <p>?
# [00:56] <Hixie> or whatever?
# [00:56] <tabatkins_> Why do you want an <svg><rect /></svg> in the middle of a <p>?
# [00:56] <Hixie> same reason you'd want an <img> there
# [00:56] <tabatkins_> Exactly.
# [00:56] <Hixie> because you have an image
# [00:56] <Hixie> that's not the same
# [00:56] <Hixie> an <Svg> introduces a replaced element
# [00:57] <Hixie> <rect> introduces... not sure what exactly
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# [00:57] <tabatkins_> As would a <rect>, once I define the rendering model.
# [00:57] <othermaciej> tabatkins_: might be nice if it had always worked that way, but now it would create a chameleon namespace issue
# [00:57] <Hixie> when would you want _just_ a rect?
# [00:57] <Hixie> that seems very odd
# [00:57] <othermaciej> sucks to have an element that can be in two different namespaces
# [00:57] <othermaciej> see dbaron's well-known comment on the topic
# [00:57] <tabatkins_> Hixie: If you, say, had some <pattern>s defined earlier in the doc, and are painting it with them?
# [00:57] <tantek> like <a> ?
# [00:58] <tabatkins_> othermaciej: I don't recall dbaron's comment.
# [00:58] <othermaciej> <a> is annoying for a different reason (namespace collision if you ignore the namespace)
# [00:58] <Hixie> mixing at that level seems like it would be a huge departure from svg's semantics while simultanesouly being kinda counter to the whole content/presentation split
# [00:58] <Hixie> svg is media-specific, html is not
# [00:58] <Hixie> it's fine to have well-defined places to integrate them
# [00:58] <Hixie> but i don't really see what it means to have a <path> in the middle of a <label>
# [00:58] <tabatkins_> SVG is exactly as media-specific as <img>. I don't understand why you believe <img> is okay but <rect> isn't.
# [00:59] <Hixie> <img> or fine, so is <svg>, the point is that <rect> is like having five of the pixels of a PNG without the rest of it
# [00:59] <othermaciej> tabatkins_: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Feb/0065.html
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# [00:59] <tabatkins_> More important, though, is being able to mix HTML into SVG so you can get better handling of text and stuff, without <foreignObject> pain.
# [00:59] <Hixie> why is <foreignObject> painful?
# [01:02] <tabatkins_> Because it's an extra element that doesn't *do* anything.
# [01:02] <Hixie> it introduces a viewport
# [01:02] <Hixie> that's pretty important :-)
# [01:03] <tabatkins_> Nah, that's already done by nesting <svg> if you need a new viewport, or by the root <svg> if you don't.
# [01:06] <Hixie> it introduces a viewport with the dimensions and position where you want the nested HTML. We could say you could use <svg> instead, sure, but my point is that it does something, not nothing.
# [01:06] <tabatkins_> Looking over dbaron's comment, it looks like his concerns are mostly only a problem if you (a) actually care about namespaces, and (b) don't fully integrate the DOMs of the two languages.
# [01:06] <Hixie> it also does the important job of keeping the visual markup segragated from the media-independent markup, allowing us to have sane conformance criteria
# [01:07] <tabatkins_> I'm still not understanding that objection. A <rect> is visual in the same way an <img> is, so the same conformance criteria apply. A <text> is media-independent in the same way a <p> is, so ditto.
# [01:07] <Hixie> (we could certainly define what happens if we allowed mixing svg and html together, e.g. we could say shapes aren't in flow and so margins collapse between the <p>s in <p><circle/></p>, but that seems like it'd be hugely confusing for no benefit)
# [01:08] <Hixie> <rect> isn't the same as <img>
# [01:08] <Hixie> <rect is the same as the pixels in the PNG in the <img> that happens to form a rectangle
# [01:08] <Hixie> > ^
# [01:08] <shepazu> Hixie: that's a pretty sexist conclusion
# [01:08] <tabatkins_> Not if the <rect> is hosting a <pattern>, for example.
# [01:09] <Hixie> it'd be like putting the 2D canvas on all HTML elements
# [01:09] <tabatkins_> Are you under the impression that <rect> is just for drawing solid-color rectangles?
# [01:09] <shepazu> where by "sexist", I mean "something I don't agree with"
# [01:09] <Hixie> tabatkins_: i am familiar with <rect>
# [01:10] <tabatkins_> Hixie: Then I don't understand why you keep implying that a <rect> (or generally, an SVG drawing element) can't be an "image" by itself.
# [01:10] <shepazu> I wouldn't rather we not have to use <foreignObject>
# [01:10] <shepazu> er… s/wouldn't/would/
# [01:11] <Hixie> tabatkins_: you can certainly form an image from a single <rect>, or a single <rect> with lots of supporting patterns and gradients and colour stops, or indeed a single path, or indeed many other things
# [01:11] <Hixie> tabatkins_: just like you can form a bitmap from a collection of pixels
# [01:11] <Hixie> tabatkins_: but so what?
# [01:11] <Hixie> tabatkins_: just because you can have a <select> with a single <optgroup> doesn't mean we should allow <optgroup> anywhere in the DOM
# [01:12] <shepazu> (you can also make an image using CSS)
# [01:12] <Hixie> tabatkins_: there are many things about SVG that I would change if we were starting over, but getting rid of the clear boundaries of where the image starts and ends isn't one of them
# [01:12] <tabatkins_> Interestingly, we *do* allow display:table-row anywhere in the document.
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# [01:12] <Hixie> if we were talking about putting SVG into CSS 'content' or some such, i would be totally fine with it
# [01:12] <tabatkins_> Because it has a clear meaning, and you can infer the context.
# [01:13] <Hixie> because CSS is not media-independent
# [01:13] <Hixie> it's the presentation layer, like SVG
# [01:13] <Hixie> it makes perfect sense in the CSS layer to talk about having an arrow or a pattern or a line here or there or whatever
# [01:13] <tabatkins_> Dude, quit pulling out that argument. It's *wrong*. HTML has several presentational elements.
# [01:14] <Hixie> i think while you consider that argument to be wrong we are unlikely to make progress in this discussion, since it is the core premise of much of my work :-)
# [01:14] <tabatkins_> So trying to argue that adding variants of them is somehow anti-semantic is simply nonsensical.
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# [01:15] <tabatkins_> If it's ok to refer to SVG in an <img>, it's equally okay to embed SVG in an <svg>, and it's equally okay to embed a <rect> directly (from a semantic perspective).
# [01:15] <Hixie> i've attempted to explain why i disagree
# [01:15] <tabatkins_> Yes, but that particular reason is nonsense, as it's inconsistent with the current (reasonable) state of HTML.
# [01:16] <Hixie> telling me that it's nonsense is not going to convince me
# [01:17] <Hixie> but i respect that that is your opinion
# [01:17] <tabatkins_> othermaciej: As far as I can tell, dbaron's comment hinges on you (a) caring about namespaces in general (rather than importing them for the purpose of *eliminating* them for practical purposes), and (b) not fully integrating the two languages.
# [01:17] <othermaciej> tabatkins_: would support for svg elements in the svg namespace be removed?
# [01:17] <tabatkins_> Hixie: You are asserting that <p>foo <rect/></p> is somehow wrong, but <p>foo <svg><rect /></svg></p> is okay. You can't justify that.
# [01:18] <tabatkins_> othermaciej: That would be cool, but would greatly magnify the transition pain.
# [01:18] <othermaciej> tabatkins_: if not, then I believe dbaron's criticisms apply
# [01:18] <othermaciej> tabatkins_: if yes, it's probably a nonstarter from a compat perspective
# [01:18] <tabatkins_> othermaciej: I agree they apply. I don't think they're as important as when dbaron raised them.
# [01:19] <tabatkins_> (They may not even have actually been important when they were raised. I don't know what dbaron thought about namespaces in general in 2006.)
# [01:19] <Hixie> tabatkins_: i am asserting that <p>foo</p> <line .../><line .../> <p>bar</p> should not be conforming because it is almost certainly going to occur only when authors are intentionally making their HTML files media-specific and that that is counter to the purpose of a semantic markup language.
# [01:20] <othermaciej> I think all of dbaron's criticisms still fully apply to the svg-in-html-namespace proposal
# [01:20] <othermaciej> (unless support for the svg namespace is dropped)
# [01:20] <tabatkins_> Hixie: But that *precise* markup is okay if you wrap the <line>s in an <svg> element?
# [01:20] <othermaciej> implementations will have to support the same element in both namespaces
# [01:21] <othermaciej> svg even has the additional issue of namespace collisions, where svg:a != html:a and svg:font != html:font
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# [01:21] <Hixie> tabatkins_: i think it's fine to have a well-defined short list of ways to embed media-specific material, ideally in a manner that allows for fallback in other media, as that makes it clear where the media-specific content's boundaries lie.
# [01:21] <Hixie> tabatkins_: (i'm not 100% happy that <svg> in HTML doesn't have well-defined fallback)
# [01:21] <tabatkins_> SVG doesn't allow for fallback. (Ninja'd!)
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# [01:23] <tabatkins_> othermaciej: Well, dbaron didn't object along any of those lines when we discussed it over dinner. ^_^
# [01:23] <tabatkins_> He may have forgotten his previous position, of course.
# [01:23] <othermaciej> could be
# [01:23] <Hixie> i think there is a huge qualitative difference between <svg><line .../><line .../></svg> and <div><line .../><line .../></div>. The former clearly indicates to authors where the boundaries of their image lies. The latter makes it way harder to distinguish.
# [01:24] <Hixie> i just don't see the problem with requiring <svg>, frankly
# [01:25] <tabatkins_> Hixie: It's a meaningless wrapper element, morally equivalent to a wrapper <div>. ^_^
# [01:26] <Hixie> well, no, it introduces the coordinate space, defines a viewport, and various other things, but even if it were technically identical, it isn't _morally_ identical, and that's my whole argument
# [01:26] <othermaciej> implementing svg without the <svg> wrapper would be slightly annoying, because of the issues pixie mentions
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# [01:27] <othermaciej> <svg> defines a coordinate space and a viewbox, without which other svg elements are meaningless
# [01:27] <tabatkins_> That's just a CSS issue, actually. Not difficult.
# [01:27] <othermaciej> you'd essentially have to add an "anonymous box" for the svg element
# [01:27] <tabatkins_> You can default to a coordinate space of the containing block.
# [01:27] <othermaciej> like anonymous table rows or the like
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# [01:29] <Hixie> i just don't see the advantage
# [01:29] <Hixie> you'd almost always want the wrapper anyway to give the coordiante space and viewbox and various other things
# [01:30] <othermaciej> anything is technically possible with enough effort
# [01:30] <othermaciej> but I wonder also what the advantage is, beyond saving a few characters for svg start and end tags
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# [01:33] <tabatkins_> Avoiding namespace annoyances for the common case, and mixing HTML into SVG without the decently larger cost of <foreignObject> start and end tags.
# [01:33] <Hixie> just rename <foreignObject> to <html>
# [01:33] <tabatkins_> (Particularly since, in proper SVG, you need to provide the html and body tags.)
# [01:34] <Hixie> and define it as taking "flow content"
# [01:34] <Hixie> (or rename it <body>)
# [01:34] <Hixie> (or <doc>)
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# [01:39] <tabatkins_> Hm. That doesn't fix the annoyance of the *NS functions, or simplify <template> parsing, though.
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# [01:43] <Hixie> we should fix the *NS thing using the new API we figured out but that never went anywhere
# [01:43] <Hixie> <template> parsing is a separate issue that we need to resolve in general
# [01:45] <tabatkins_> <template> parsing is either "manually provide a context element" or "infer a context element, almost certainly in the way that Raf is suggesting".
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# [01:47] <roc> eliding <foreignObject> would be much easier than eliding <svg>
# [01:49] <tabatkins_> roc: I think it requires adding x/y/width/height presentational attributes to every HTML element. Kosher?
# [01:50] <Hixie> and every MathML element
# [01:50] <roc> not necessarily. Use their intrinsic widths and heights only, and use transforms to position them
# [01:50] <tabatkins_> (Well, technically we could do it within @style, once we properly merge all the SVG attributes into CSS properties.)
# [01:50] <Hixie> (and every unknown XML element if anyone wants to embed non-HTML non-MathML CSS-styled XML)
# [01:50] <tabatkins_> Hixie: I'm not sure if it's reasonable to have MathML outside of a <math>.
# [01:50] <roc> you could say it only works for HTML elements.
# [01:51] <tabatkins_> Given that MathML's rendering model is much different than the existing CSS ones.
# [01:51] <tabatkins_> (While SVG's layout model is just a slight variant on abspos.)
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# [01:52] <Hixie> tabatkins_: i think solving the "<foreignObject> problem" is as easy as just renaming it <doc> or introducing a new element <doc> that works like <fO>
# [01:53] <Hixie> no reason to define new CSS stuff
# [01:53] <Hixie> frankly though, who is hand-authoring SVG-embedding-HTML other than me?
# [01:53] <Hixie> i.e. is it really that big a problem?
# [01:54] <tabatkins_> Well, I certainly am.
# [01:54] <tabatkins_> And for a lot of things, it's definitely easy to hand-author.
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# [02:02] <Hixie> if it's just you and me, i think we can punt the issue :-)
# [02:03] <Hixie> if it's not, it may be worth creating a shorter name for that element
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# [02:05] <tabatkins_> It's not just us. ^_^ SVG is gradually actually being used by webdevs, as support finally reaches useful levels and people realize what it can do.
# [02:05] <tabatkins_> CSS is also gradually integrating more into SVG, with properties that let you "plug in" SVG elements for advanced functionality (generally not the sort of thing you'll probably make in an SVG image editor).
# [02:08] <tabatkins_> And a substantial fraction (maybe even a majority? I'd have to count) of the new features accepted for SVG2 are about increasing human-authorability.
# [02:08] <tabatkins_> Adding features that are easy to handle if you're a computer and don't mind repeating yourself, but are difficult to write (and impossible to read) if you're a human.
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# [02:12] <jamesr> Hixie, <foreignObject> is kind of too broken to hand author stuff today
# [02:12] <jamesr> tons of crap is broken with it, so not much content exists using it, so UAs aren't motivated to fix i
# [02:12] <jamesr> t
# [02:14] <Hixie> what's broken?
# [02:15] <tabatkins_> I'm going to run with roc's statement that it seems fine to just elide <foreignObject> for HTML elements.
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# [02:17] <roc> most of the things that are broken in <foreignObject> are just UA bugs
# [02:17] <Hixie> well they're certainly not going to go away if we make it more subtle :-)
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# [02:22] <Hixie> oh jeez, a sudden influx of i18n bugs
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# [03:13] <jamesr> roc, agree re: they are UA bugs. the rest of my statement still applies in that case
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# [04:03] <roc> I think Gecko's foreignObject support is pretty good
# [04:04] <roc> our main limitation is that we don't have accelerated compositing for the contents of <foreignObject> yet but we're working toward it
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# [05:11] <annevk> 'I am sorry that an overt adherence to "process" blinds some people to positive gains made when people come together and talk to each other, rather than assuming nothing but malevolent actions' coming from John Foliot, that's an instant classic
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# [05:30] <annevk> yay, seems my email address transition is more or less working
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# [05:44] <annevk> apart from public-html-testsuite that is
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# [05:53] <annevk> why is there no in:spam has:label in Gmail?
# [05:53] <annevk> or label:*
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# [06:05] <Hixie> 208
# [06:05] <Hixie> er
# [06:10] <annevk> Already Reported?
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# [06:13] <Hixie> line 208
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# [06:33] <annevk> merging SVG with HTML keeps coming up, but each time it's a less just try it and see what breaks rather than thought through
# [06:34] <annevk> merging SVG and CSS is more interesting I think; similarly to how SMIL got in CSS
# [06:39] <Hixie> agreed
# [06:43] <Hixie> jesus the more i have to deal with these frameworks the more i hate them
# [06:44] <Hixie> (io.socket.js being the main culprit here today)
# [06:44] <Hixie> or socket.io or whatever it's called
# [06:52] <annevk> from Asa Dotzler: "not going to block k9o on un-prefixing but if there are full-screen capabilities missing that we need to have a successful app ecosystem, we'll block on those."
# [06:52] <annevk> I guess a proprietary app ecosystem is now fine?
# [06:55] <annevk> Hixie: btw, do you have a POP3 account for ian@hixie.ch that Gmail imports?
# [06:55] <Hixie> no
# [06:55] <Hixie> i just forward all e-mail directly
# [06:55] <Hixie> ian@hixie.ch is just an alias
# [06:55] <rniwa> annevk: moving to new email address?
# [06:55] <annevk> Hixie: how did you setup your native client to be able to email from ian@hixie.ch?
# [06:56] <annevk> rniwa: yeah, annevk@annevk.nl
# [06:56] <Hixie> annevk: why would that be a problem?
# [06:56] <annevk> Hixie: e.g. when trying to do that on my iPhone it asked for a password
# [06:57] <Hixie> password for what?
# [06:57] <annevk> but maybe I'm looking at the wrong thing
# [06:57] <rniwa> annevk: SMTP or POP3 i suppose?
# [06:57] <rniwa> annevk: which SMTP/POP3/IMAP server are you using to send those emails?
# [06:57] <rniwa> annevk: of gmail? or of annevk.nl?
# [06:57] <annevk> rniwa: using Gmail at the moment to email from annevk@annevk.nl
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# [06:58] <Hixie> oh i don't e-mail from gmail
# [06:59] <annevk> ah, I guess I need to setup some kind of SMTP account?
# [06:59] <Hixie> honestly if you just want to use gmail your best bet might just be to get a hosted gmail account
# [07:00] <Hixie> on annevk.nl
# [07:00] <Hixie> so you can just point your mx records at gmail and so on
# [07:01] <annevk> I'd rather not have another Google account
# [07:03] <annevk> Hixie: anyway, if hixie.ch is just an alias, how do you send email from there?
# [07:04] <Hixie> pine doesn't care where you say you send mail from, it just happily puts the from address on there
# [07:04] <Hixie> and the dreamhost smtp servers are fine with it because they know it's one of my dreamhost addresses, i presume
# [07:04] <rniwa> annevk: which mail client do you use?
# [07:05] <Hixie> i occasionally e-mail from gmail, and gmail seems fine with it too, didn't have to do anything special there
# [07:05] <rniwa> annevk: i think you normally setup a separate account with gmail's credential for username/password
# [07:05] <annevk> Hixie: oh, I had to authenticate it there
# [07:05] <annevk> Hixie: are you sure you're not importing a DreamHost POP3 account into Gmail?
# [07:06] <Hixie> there is no dreamhost pop3 account to forward
# [07:06] <Hixie> so yes
# [07:06] <annevk> rniwa: I haven't really decided yet which email client to use; I'm using Opera at the moment; not sure how good it is at handling multiple accounts
# [07:06] <Hixie> ian@hixie.ch is just a forwarding alias
# [07:06] <Hixie> there's no inbox behind it
# [07:06] <Hixie> same as *@spam.hixie.ch
# [07:06] <rniwa> annevk: http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=22370
# [07:07] * rniwa finally found a manual on this :D
# [07:07] * rniwa hates page redesigns that moves URLs around :(
# [07:08] <rniwa> annevk: honestly, the best mail client for gmail is gmail itself. i've tried several mail clients that try to support gmail features
# [07:09] <rniwa> annevk: but none of them support labels well.
# [07:09] <rniwa> annevk: it's fine as long as you have only one label at a time
# [07:09] <rniwa> but as soon as you start adding 2-3 labels, it gets all confused :(
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# [07:09] <annevk> rniwa: ah k
# [07:12] <rniwa> annevk: i highly recommend "preview pane" in labs
# [07:12] <annevk> maybe Gmail is efficient enough
# [07:12] <rniwa> annevk: yeah, i think the only reason you want to use mail clients to see emails offline
# [07:12] <rniwa> i suppose you would do that much more often than i do as a spec. author though...
# [07:13] <annevk> rniwa: does preview pane require a minimum width?
# [07:15] <rniwa> annevk: you can do vertical split as well.
# [07:15] <annevk> Hixie: I guess the problem is that I don't have a DreamHost SMTP setup as far as I know
# [07:15] <rniwa> annevk: (it defaults to horizontal split)
# [07:15] <Hixie> mail.annevk.nl
# [07:15] <Hixie> is your smtp server
# [07:15] <Hixie> i believe
# [07:15] <Hixie> oh i guess if you don't have an account at dreamhost for your mail you wouldn't have an account on it though
# [07:16] <annevk> right :)
# [07:16] <Hixie> can you create a bogus account?
# [07:16] <rniwa> annevk: setup a local SMTP server :D
# [07:16] <Hixie> on his iphone? :-P
# [07:17] <Hixie> as if apple would allow that :-P
# [07:17] <Hixie> if he had an android he could :-)
# Session Close: Tue May 08 07:17:22 2012
#
# Session Start: Tue May 08 07:17:22 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [07:17] * Disconnected
# [07:18] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
# [07:18] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
# [07:18] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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# [07:25] <AryehGregor> jgraham, why, XSS? Does dvcs.w3.org use any browser credentials or have any hidden things or such that would make XSS a problem?
# [07:25] <AryehGregor> I guess it can access cookies for *.w3.org.
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# [07:26] <AryehGregor> Well, then someone should mirror the hg repos to w3c-test.org.
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# [07:30] <AryehGregor> Wait a sec. How can a Google+ e-mail in Gmail allow me to add someone to a circle directly in the e-mail? Do e-mails from Google+ get special privileges in Gmail?
# [07:30] * AryehGregor smells antitrust.
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# [07:33] <annevk> AryehGregor: you can do the same from Google search results, no?
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# [07:33] <AryehGregor> I don't know, maybe. But at least that's dedicated UI. This was part of the e-mail.
# [07:33] <AryehGregor> I wouldn't have remarked on it if it were an extra button at the side of the e-mail or something.
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# [07:41] <roc> I think emails from anyone that Google+ knows about get special Gmail UI
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# [08:12] <annevk> so http://support.google.com/mobile/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=138740 suggests I go to m.google.com/sync on iOS to configure the custom From header, but that page says my device is not supported
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# [08:14] <annevk> oh
# [08:14] <annevk> per help forum it's because the UI language is not English, which I never even set to Dutch to begin with, but I guess that's some IP address sniffing
# [08:14] <annevk> boohoo
# [08:19] * rniwa hates lang. setting per IP address sniffing
# [08:19] <rniwa> every time I go to a foreign country, i need to figure out a way to get back to english website :(
# [08:19] <rniwa> i don't know who decided it's a good idea.
# [08:21] <annevk> anyway, I can now email from my iPhone as annevk@annevk.nl and I don't have a custom/DreamHost SMTP setup yet
# [08:21] <rniwa> nice.
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# [08:52] <Ms2ger> jgraham, yt?
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# [09:14] <annevk> MikeSmith: so public-html-testsuite is still sending emails to my old address and I think that's the last list
# [09:15] <annevk> MikeSmith: I had unsubscribed for a few days now though so something seems broken
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# [09:17] <[tm]> annevk: away from my PC but will check it when i get back
# [09:18] <[tm]> i think the reason is that nobody had sent a message to the list, so the subscriber info had not been updated
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# [09:19] <annevk> I thought so too, but then last night now emails arrived in my annevk@opera.com inbox
# [09:21] <annevk> and I have tried unsubscribing about four times it seems per my sent history
# [09:26] <[tm]> ok
# [09:26] <[tm]> I'll try to get it figured out tonight
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# [09:40] <Ms2ger> annevk, as usual, please don't interpret "Asa Dotzler" as "Mozilla" ;)
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# [10:03] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: woah! let's not change the parser around foreign content to be a radically different design...
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# [10:09] <jgraham> OK, is this a conspiracy? Just when I want to talk to Ms2ger and AryehGregor, they both leave :(
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# [10:14] <zcorpan> also, let's fix <svg>.innerHTML = '<g/>' *first*
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# [11:46] <annevk> while trying to find the Hypertext CG (not a Community) mailing list I found http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-backplane-comments/
# [11:46] <annevk> takes you back
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# [12:01] <zcorpan> [tm]: you know what would be nice? memorable shortlinks to all the specs in http://platform.html5.org/
# [12:03] <kennyluck> That sounds cool indeed.
# [12:05] <zcorpan> [tm]: btw, i don't see a link to selectors4
# [12:05] <annevk> you mean stuff like platform.html5.org/html and such?
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# [12:06] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah, but ideally shorter :)
# [12:07] <kennyluck> we should have reserved tr.org. http://tr.org/html5 and such
# [12:08] <annevk> kennyluck: w3.org is pretty short
# [12:09] <annevk> kennyluck: you could e.g. have w3.org/r/xxx or r.w3.org/xxx
# [12:09] <jgraham> sp.ec/html ?
# [12:09] <zcorpan> jgraham: wfm
# [12:09] <annevk> .ec requires 3 characters I think
# [12:10] <jgraham> Yeah
# [12:10] <annevk> it's also expensive
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# [12:12] <jgraham> Indeed. websp.ec probably isn't worth it then :(
# [12:14] <zcorpan> can we use just html5.org/html etc?
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# [12:16] <annevk> zcorpan: seems like a pain to maintain
# [12:18] <zcorpan> annevk: why?
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# [12:19] <annevk> zcorpan: because it's at the root of the site so I would be the bottleneck
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# [12:21] <zcorpan> hmm. would it be possible to have a script somewhere that [tm] can fiddle with that creates redirect rules for the root, or some such?
# [12:22] <zcorpan> oh selectors is under css
# [12:23] <annevk> not without giving mike access to all of html5.org, which is fine, but currently it's connected to most of my other domains
# [12:35] <annevk> so I'd prefer a new domain or a subdomain
# [12:35] <annevk> but I'm not sure it's really worth it
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# [12:41] <Philip`> I thought nobody was meant to call it HTML5 nowadays anyway
# [12:41] <Philip`> so html5.org is an archaic domain name
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# [12:43] <annevk> Philip`: nostalgic
# [12:43] <annevk> Philip`: also, html.org was way expensive
# [12:50] <zcorpan> html60.org?
# [12:56] <annevk> ah yeah, html.org owners rejected a USD 12.000 offer and will consider everything above 20.000
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# [12:57] <annevk> oh hmm
# [12:57] <annevk> html.org is now in the hands of w3.org
# [12:58] <annevk> so maybe they put some of that Member money into domain buying fun?
# [12:58] <smaug____> that would be odd
# [12:58] <annevk> also appears to be using GoDaddy which is somewhat disappointing
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# [12:59] <annevk> smaug____: http://whois.domaintools.com/html.org shows it's owned by the W3C now
# [12:59] <Ms2ger> jgraham, so
# [12:59] <Ms2ger> There's two things I'd like to do
# [12:59] <annevk> and I have an emailed exchange with the previous owner about the price
# [13:00] <Ms2ger> One is { timeout: Infinity } (hmm, maybe that even works right now)
# [13:00] <Ms2ger> The other is telling a test "I've given up on you, if you get any more results, don't tell me about them, because I don't care"
# [13:01] * gwicke_ is now known as gwicke
# [13:01] <Ms2ger> Because I'm afraid of test results ending up reported for the next test
# [13:01] <Ms2ger> (ISTR that happening with mochitests)
# [13:02] <zcorpan> annevk: you should have bought it and sold it to the w3c :-P
# [13:03] <zcorpan> maybe w3c want to buy html5.org as well?
# [13:03] <zcorpan> for ONE MILLION DOLLARS
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# [13:13] <zcorpan> "first version of Web Sockets" http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2012AprJun/0557.html
# [13:16] <annevk> quick, what's our position?
# [13:16] * annevk throws up a coin
# [13:17] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I think my solution does that
# [13:17] <jgraham> Depending on what you mean by "test"
# [13:18] <jgraham> So in your testharnessreport.js you would set explicit_timeout to true
# [13:18] <jgraham> That would be line timeout:infinity
# [13:18] <jgraham> *like
# [13:18] <jgraham> Then when you want to give up on a test you would call timeout()
# [13:19] <jgraham> That would set the status of any tests without results to "Not Run", and cause the page to try and report its results in the normal way
# [13:19] <jgraham> and prevent anything further happening
# [13:19] <kennyluck> TabAtkins, yt?
# [13:21] <zcorpan> what does <script defer> do if the script is created after window.onload?
# [13:23] <jgraham> zcorpan: From memory, that won't ever get run (per spec)
# [13:23] <jgraham> But my memory is not that good
# [13:23] * jgraham adds it to a list of thinsg to test
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# [13:25] <zcorpan> is that what ie does?
# [13:27] <jgraham> Dunno, I would need to change computers to find out
# [13:29] <zcorpan> me too
# [13:29] <zcorpan> but i'm curious so maybe i'll check :)
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# [13:30] <jgraham> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1513 shows the script running in Gecko and WebKit
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# [13:31] <jgraham> Oh, but that test is wrong
# [13:31] <jgraham> Needs to be parser-inserted
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# [13:52] <tabatkins_> kennyluck: Here.
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# [13:54] <kennyluck> TabAtkins, I am wondering if you can list http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Apr/0152 in the list of CSS3 V&U issue list. I have a patch for Gecko pending working group resolution on this → https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=751805
# [13:55] <zcorpan> jgraham: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=1514 ie9 runs the script
# [13:55] <kennyluck> I noticed that in your Syntax draft, url() can't be escaped, but I guess David wants a working group resolution.
# [13:56] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yeah, because defer only has an effect on parser-inserted scripts
# [13:56] <zcorpan> oh
# [13:56] <jgraham> So the question is whether it is possible to create a parser-inserted script after load fires
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# [13:57] <jgraham> I thought http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1515 might be close, but I haven't checked what document.close actually does
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# [14:05] <Ms2ger> jgraham, a timeout() function? Does that exist in code or only in your mind? :)
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# [14:13] <odinho> In HTML5 spec, is several dt's after another supposed to OR-ed or AND-ed?
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# [14:15] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Only in my mind
# [14:15] <annevk> it's a relationship between <dt> and <dd>, so OR
# [14:15] <annevk> but maybe we should document that somehow
# [14:15] <odinho> annevk: OK, like I thought.
# [14:16] <jgraham> Ms2ger: But it would simply be exposing the internal Tests.prototype.timeout
# [14:16] <annevk> other glenn was confused by this too
# [14:16] <odinho> annevk: Yes, I tried finding it in http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/introduction.html#structure-of-this-specification
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# [14:17] <annevk> at some point I'm going to write "Boilerplate"
# [14:17] <annevk> with Boilerplate Conformance, Terminology, etc.
# [14:17] <annevk> and then other specs just say "See boilerplate"
# [14:17] <annevk> plus changes
# [14:18] <odinho> annevk: Would be A+. Your html5.org in itself (just linking a few links to very relevant stuff) is really useful .
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# [14:21] <annevk> it's getting kind of annoying to copy that stuff all over and then we find something worthy of clarifying and boom, 10 specs need to be updated and kept in sync
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# [14:22] <zcorpan> annevk: or make Anolis insert the boilerplate
# [14:23] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I'm happy to set up shortlinks wherever -- under platform.html5.org if that's where people would like them
# [14:24] <annevk> zcorpan: a) that doesn't make it clear it's boilerplate b) that doesn't make additions to the boilerplate clear
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# [14:25] <zcorpan> annevk: fair enough
# [14:26] <jgraham> hsivonen: AFAICT http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1515 is a bug in gecko
# [14:26] <Niloy> is there any plans to standardise webkit's css reflection?
# [14:27] <annevk> Niloy: best to look through www-style
# [14:27] <Niloy> okay thanks
# [14:28] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: cool. only problem is finding a good way to make the urls short enough to be worthwhile :)
# [14:28] <Ms2ger> Niloy, yes-ish
# [14:28] <Ms2ger> (That's all I know about it, though)
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# [14:32] <Ms2ger> jgraham, I'd much appreciate the code, too ;)
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# [14:32] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: could do what annevk said earlier, about making them html.org/foo urls instead; but I currently don't have perms to do that -- would require some changes from annevk first I guess
# [14:33] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, you mean html5.org?
# [14:34] <MikeSmith> yeah
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# [14:36] <odinho> If it's apache, just having a .htaccess with the redirects there would be enough I guess. Someone at the F2F used that for a "personal shortening service", don't remember who. :P
# [14:36] <jgraham> Oh, W3C owns html.org? Who knew?
# [14:36] <MikeSmith> is node. isEqualNode(foo) supported across browsers?
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# [14:37] <annevk> jgraham: I did since earlier today :p
# [14:37] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I didn't know. Are you sure it does?
# [14:37] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Well whois says that
# [14:37] <MikeSmith> wow
# [14:37] <annevk> I asked Ted about it on www-archive
# [14:37] <annevk> fwiw
# [14:38] <annevk> it's a) registered by GoDaddy which is bad and b) I'm kind of curious if W3C really paid that much
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# [14:38] <MikeSmith> I doubt W3C would pay a bunch of money for it
# [14:39] <annevk> MikeSmith: I think isEqualNode() is supported yes (not sure about all edge cases)
# [14:39] <MikeSmith> OK
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# [14:39] * MikeSmith didn't know
# [14:39] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah, so I tried getting this domain January 2011; guy asked USD 20.000
# [14:39] <MikeSmith> wow
# [14:40] <MikeSmith> that's nuts
# [14:40] <annevk> he said he had an offer for 12.000 but wanted more
# [14:40] <annevk> with a typo lol "We will consider all serious propositions abone $20,000"
# [14:40] <MikeSmith> maybe Ted ended up claiming it through trademark or something
# [14:40] <MikeSmith> heh
# [14:40] <TabAtkins> kennyluck: Sorry, mirc wasn't binging me for mentions.
# [14:41] <annevk> MikeSmith: ah yeah
# [14:41] <kennyluck> TabAtkins, nah, no problem.
# [14:41] <TabAtkins> I intend to resolve that so that it's completely impossible.
# [14:42] <TabAtkins> In other words, so that url() doesn't allow it (because it's all parsed as a URL), and \url() is an unknown function.
# [14:43] <TabAtkins> image() will allow attr(), because it takes a <string> type value (not STRING tokens, like url()).
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# [14:44] <kennyluck> TabAtkins, I am in favor of that for what it's worth. The whole question is whether \url() can be considered a <url>.
# [14:44] <annevk> is \u the same as u?
# [14:44] <annevk> because then yes
# [14:44] <kennyluck> I think WebKit as well as the formal grammar in CSS2.1 disallow this. Gecko allows this, so is a test case in the CSS2.1 test suite. How weird...
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# [14:45] <annevk> kennyluck: sounds like a bug in the grammar
# [14:46] <kennyluck> This has been raised multiple times throughout the history of www-style, but I guess there was never a clear resolution.
# [14:46] <annevk> kennyluck: if the grammar is not {u}{r}{l}'(' ... ')' or something close to that
# [14:47] <annevk> allowing @document-\url ... but not background:\url() seems really weird
# [14:47] <annevk> now removing escapes from what should be literals...
# [14:47] <annevk> I would support that, but it seems a little late
# [14:48] <annevk> especially considering the current dynamics of the CSS WG
# [14:48] <kennyluck> annevk, David is in favor of what you think I guess. I think TabAtkins is against. I am probably against.
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# [14:49] <kennyluck> In any case, I need to fix the grammar or the test suite.
# [14:49] <kennyluck> s/I/We/
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# [14:57] <annevk> kennyluck: dbaron? pointer?
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# [14:58] <annevk> kennyluck: and why would anyone be against removing complexity? compat concerns?
# [14:58] <kennyluck> annevk, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=751805#c3
# [14:58] <annevk> odinho: fwiw, the question in that Origin header bug is about the Origin header not being required by HTML
# [14:59] <annevk> odinho: because HTTP is not required
# [14:59] <annevk> odinho: so you could opt to not include the Origin header and it's not entirely clear to the submitter of the bug what the requirements with respect to CORS are then
# [14:59] <TabAtkins> kennyluck: No, \url() shouldn't be a <url>. It's an unknown function. You only get a <url> from URL tokens, or from the image() function.
# [15:00] <annevk> TabAtkins: why url() not work like any other syntax construct in CSS?
# [15:00] <annevk> would /\
# [15:00] <annevk> either you handle escapes everywhere or you don't
# [15:01] <TabAtkins> Because how does "\url(foo bar ! /* baz */)" work? It definitely *doesn't* act like "url(foo bar ! /* baz */)".
# [15:01] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1516 opera and gecko apply it
# [15:01] <odinho> annevk: If it's never sending CORS requests, then they will always fail I guess. So in No CORS-mode you'll always get taint, in the CORS modes you'll always fail. -- I find the question a bit strange.
# [15:01] <kennyluck> so does IE, but IE is in general just broken concerning CSS escape sequences...
# [15:02] <odinho> s/CORS requests/an Origin header/
# [15:02] <annevk> odinho: HTML CORS requests are not dependent on supporting CORS or something
# [15:02] <annevk> odinho: the dependency chain is somewhat weird
# [15:02] <annevk> it'll be fixed once we have fetch v2
# [15:02] <annevk> but we don't
# [15:04] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: i don't follow what the problem is with "\url(foo bar ! /* baz */)"
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# [15:05] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: If you're not invoking the special URL token parsing, it looks like FUNCTION IDENT IDENT DELIM COMMENT CLOSE-PAREN.
# [15:05] <TabAtkins> And you can lose data there unless you're preserving comments and exact whitespace.
# [15:06] <TabAtkins> Even worse is what happens if you don't close the paren.
# [15:06] <TabAtkins> close the comment, i mean.
# [15:06] <TabAtkins> Then you get different results no matter what, because the URL token doesn't recognize a comment inside of itself.
# [15:06] <TabAtkins> But a FUNCTION token would.
# [15:07] <zcorpan> but url(foo bar ! /* baz */) isn't valid anyway, is it?
# [15:08] <TabAtkins> No, I believe that's valid.
# [15:08] <TabAtkins> and corresponds to the url "foo bar ! /* baz */".
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# [15:09] <TabAtkins> Which isn't a valid url, obviously, but still.
# [15:09] <kennyluck> Well, space isn't valid in unquoted url() for what it's worth.
# [15:09] <TabAtkins> url(foo bar ! /* baz) is invalid, but it's well-defined and guaranteed to end at the ) character.
# [15:09] <zcorpan> browsers don't seem to think it's valid
# [15:09] <TabAtkins> Oh, right, sorry.
# [15:09] <TabAtkins> That's true.
# [15:09] <kennyluck> Seriously, I don't buy any argument here. My patch which changes Gecko to match WebKit has only 10 lines. We just need to agree on something.
# [15:09] <TabAtkins> So url(foo/*baz*/).
# [15:10] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it's simple in any direction.
# [15:11] <TabAtkins> I mean, I suppose I could make the tokenizer look for escaped u, r, and l to invoke the url token parsing. It just doesn't seem necessary.
# [15:11] <annevk> but that's what happens everywhere else
# [15:11] <TabAtkins> Oh, and here's a more realistic example: url(http://example.com/*)
# [15:11] <annevk> it would be highly inconsistent not to look for escapes
# [15:12] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: in opera/gecko, url(image?/**/) and \url(image?/**/) both load the image, while url(image/**/) and \url(image/**/) both don't
# [15:12] <TabAtkins> This is an invalid url token that ends at the ). It's an unclosed comment if it's a function.
# [15:12] <zcorpan> (in live dom viewer)
# [15:12] <annevk> what happens for url(x()x)
# [15:13] <annevk> or url([)])
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# [15:13] <annevk> (whether or not it follows the generic error handling)
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# [15:14] <TabAtkins> Let's see what url([)]) does...
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# [15:15] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1518 gets applied in opera/gecko, so they don't tokenize a comment there
# [15:18] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: i think i'd go with majority and make the tokenizer look for escaped url :-)
# [15:18] <TabAtkins> Putting together a decently comprehensive suite real quick.
# [15:18] <kennyluck> Anyway, we had http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Dec/0215 from annevk, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0499 from Bjoern Hoehrmann, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Apr/0680 from fantasai all about this for whoever is interested...
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# [15:19] <annevk> haven't changed my mind on this in 4+ years it seems
# [15:20] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I'll do whatever's reasonable and common. Just trying to figure out what it is, comprehensively.
# [15:20] <TabAtkins> I did my initial spec from testing in webkit only. ^_^
# [15:21] <kennyluck> TabAtkins, well, what you do is matching CSS 2.1 no there is no blame for you.
# [15:21] <kennyluck> s/no/so/
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# [15:23] <TabAtkins> That's true too. Doesn't excuse sticking with 2.1 if it's clear that reality diverges, though.
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# [15:24] <annevk> I don't think I ever got a reply to that email btw
# [15:24] <TabAtkins> The correct answer is "nobody should ever touch the parser itself ever again".
# [15:24] <annevk> CSS WG violated W3C Process, news at eleven
# [15:24] <annevk> oh, film at eleven, doh
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# [15:26] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, hmm, once you have a decently comprehensive suite, you can unprefix!
# [15:28] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: FINALLY
# [15:29] <annevk> "PREFIX ALL THE FEATURES"
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# [15:37] <TabAtkins> All right, everyone non-webkit agrees.
# [15:38] <TabAtkins> Escaping the u,r, and l characters are kosher, and it still invokes the URL token parsing.
# [15:38] <TabAtkins> So I'll fix that in the spec. Kenny, feel free to patch accordingly.
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# [15:39] <TabAtkins> That still means that \url(attr(foo)) won't do what that thread wanted, because you get the URL token parsing.
# [15:39] <TabAtkins> But like I said, image() handles that fine, because it parses as a FUNCTION instead.
# [15:40] <kennyluck> TabAtkins, which means I need to patch CSS2. (my patch changes Gecko to match WebKit)
# [15:40] <TabAtkins> Well, I'll patch CSS2.1.
# [15:40] <TabAtkins> Don't match Webkit.
# [15:41] <zcorpan> patch webkit! :-P
# [15:41] <TabAtkins> Yes!
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# [15:41] <kennyluck> TabAtkins, please do. I already add my mail to the long list of mails about this I mentioned above.
# [15:41] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, only if you have proposed text and a test case ;)
# [15:43] <kennyluck> Does anyone have an opinion on whether \u+1234 should be accepted as UNICODE-RANGE or not?
# [15:44] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: I'm writing up an email with proposed text now.
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# [15:44] <TabAtkins> kennyluck: What's the support?
# [15:44] <TabAtkins> That's all I really care about. ^_^
# [15:45] <kennyluck> TabAtkins, does any browser support 'unicode-range' already? Otherwise it can't be tested...
# [15:46] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I think that's supported pretty widely in @font-face.
# [15:46] <TabAtkins> I know that at least *some* browsers support it.
# [15:46] <zcorpan> does anyone *use* unicode-range?
# [15:46] <TabAtkins> Can't answer that. ^_^
# [15:47] <zcorpan> it seemed like a misfeature last time i looked at the spec
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# [15:48] <TabAtkins> Not my place to say, within the context of css3-syntax.
# [15:51] <kennyluck> "The CSS code above worked for me in Chrome and Safari on Mac OS X 10.6. but didn’t work in Firefox or Opera. Nor did it work in IE9 on Windows7"
# [15:51] <kennyluck> If that's true, I am pretty sure WebKit follows the CSS 2.1 grammar so there's no support.
# [15:52] <kennyluck> But well, I don't know if people will think that's inconsistent.
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# [15:56] <TabAtkins> kennyluck: You can just use the CSSOM to query the property on the font-face rule, and see if it's been dropped or not.
# [15:57] <TabAtkins> It would be pretty dumb if every single browser was opposite (in different ways) in whether they support escapes in URL and UNICODE-RANGE.
# [15:59] <Ms2ger> It would be appropriate for the web
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# [16:22] <TabAtkins> Oh, heh, we took the escaped-url as editorial, and then just forgot to make the edit.
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# [16:23] <TabAtkins> (It's not editorial, of course. No idea why they thought that.)
# [16:26] <TabAtkins> Ah, yup, and the change was covered by uri-015; it's just that the spec doesn't match the test.
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# [16:33] <TabAtkins> So, annevk, no W3C Process was violated. Just forgetfulness. ^_^
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# [16:35] <zcorpan> ah, so that's how not to violate the process!
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# [16:37] <TabAtkins> 1. Make promises to edit something.
# [16:37] <TabAtkins> 2.
# [16:37] <TabAtkins> 3. Profit!
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# [16:38] <zcorpan> yeah, we'll put in longdesc. promise.
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# [17:29] <jgraham> AryehGregor: https://gist.github.com/2636212
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# [17:59] <annevk> TabAtkins_: mwaha
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# [19:31] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: do you still think we should add .naturalOrientation to <img> to expose a particular facet of the EXIF data?
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# [19:50] <annevk> Hixie: trying to get emails back to 1000?
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# [20:10] <Hixie> annevk: got to hit 0,0,0 sometime this year!
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# [20:11] <annevk> you still want to proof your abandoned timeline?
# [20:12] <annevk> because I think it might have included some assumptions about feature freeze too :)
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# [20:14] <annevk> http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/22659085815 ref?
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# [20:18] <annevk> MikeSmith: is sysreq@w3.org the place to bug with TLS issues?
# [20:18] <MikeSmith> annevk: yup
# [20:19] <annevk> ooh
# [20:19] <annevk> site-comments is public
# [20:19] <annevk> I'll use that
# [20:19] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [20:19] <MikeSmith> that's better
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# [20:36] <MikeSmith> annevk: your old address is removed from the testsuite list now
# [20:36] <MikeSmith> I had you in the list under "Non auto removable"
# [20:37] <jgraham> annevk: You want an example of an example where where no-one remembers whether the example is an example of an in joke or not?
# [20:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: ah thanks
# [20:38] <annevk> jgraham: too much xzibit?
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# [20:39] <annevk> fast ij is fast http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/site-comments/2012May/0004.html
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# [21:14] <Hixie> annevk: not especially, i just want to actually get the feedback to zero because that's _always_ the goal. :-)
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# [21:15] <WeirdAl> yeah, those annoying commenters ;)
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# [22:27] <Hixie> abarth: what's the status of http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Meta_referrer ?
# [22:30] <othermaciej> Hixie: it's in WebKit (though only shipping in Chrome and we might turn it off for Safari) and Mozilla at least at one point allegedly said they'd implement
# [22:30] <Hixie> k, guess i'll wait a bit longer then
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# [22:30] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'm not keen on the existence of the "always" value
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# [22:31] <othermaciej> Hixie: do you have an opinion?
# [22:31] <Hixie> what's the use case for 'always;?
# [22:31] <othermaciej> I do not know
# [22:31] <Hixie> trackback, according to the page
# [22:31] <Hixie> "A blog hosted over HTTPS might wish to link to a blog hosted over HTTP and receive trackback links"
# [22:32] <Hixie> i assume it means "send trackback links"
# [22:32] <Hixie> it is kinda sad that moving to https kills referer
# [22:33] <othermaciej> the reason for it doing so is historical and weird, but it's created an expectation of referer privacy for at least some users
# [22:33] <othermaciej> so for example some people promote using google https search to get better privacy on the search queries used to reach a site
# [22:33] <Hixie> yeah
# [22:34] <othermaciej> use of the "origin" value does not seem to break that assumption, but "always" would
# [22:34] <Hixie> (not sure that actually works btw)
# [22:34] <othermaciej> there may well be back channels for all I know
# [22:35] <annevk> Google Analytics and Google Webmaster tools provide some info in how users get on your site, including search queries
# [22:35] <annevk> and links on search redirects are often redirects
# [22:35] <annevk> search results :)
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# [22:37] <othermaciej> I've heard rumors there is interest in using the "origin" meta referrer value for SSL search but I haven't heard of anyone wanting to use "always"
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# [22:37] <jgraham> I think people at Opera might have had concerns about "always" too. Although it was very informal discussion, and "people at Opera" might have just been "me" or something
# [22:37] <othermaciej> so I would guess search providers care about whatever perceived privacy is gained by not sending the referrer
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# [22:38] <annevk> but they care about origin so they can promote their existence?
# [22:38] <othermaciej> apparently, yes
# [22:39] <othermaciej> or at least, they'd like content providers to know what traffic is being sent by their search engine, even if they don't know the exact query in any given case
# [22:39] <annevk> because other than that (or CORS usage which does not apply here) it seems like a waste of bandwidth
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# [22:40] <othermaciej> the desire to send origin-as-referrer seems reasonable to me, though I'm in no position to explain anyone's business case for it
# [22:40] <annevk> I guess the query is less and less exposed anyway with the search as you type stuff
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# [22:41] <Hixie> personally i'd be fine with not ever sending referer, if we send origin
# [22:41] <Hixie> origin is useful for security
# [22:41] <Hixie> my understanding is that "SEO" people want to know what keywords are used to get to their site
# [22:41] <Hixie> (origin can also be a security/privacy problem itself, of course)
# [22:41] <Hixie> (e.g. leaking intranet host names)
# [22:42] <annevk> not sending Referer will likely break a number of sites unfortunately
# [22:42] <Hixie> jesus, the number of ways that the <object> element's algorithm can be invoked has become ludicrously long
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# [22:42] <annevk> that use it to determine whether or not to display an image and such
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# [22:44] <Hixie> anyone know if <embed> elements that are display:none also get disabled, like <object> elemnets?
# [22:44] <Hixie> oh look at that
# [22:44] <Hixie> the test that roc was using to test <object> actually tests <embed>
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# [22:44] <Hixie> new question...
# [22:45] <Hixie> anyone know if <object> elements that are display:none also get disabled, like <embed> elements? :-)
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# [22:51] <jgraham> Hixie: I seem to recall it matter for compat.
# [22:51] <jgraham> That doesn't help much though :)
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# [23:24] <jamesr> Hixie, in WebKit the behaviors are the same
# [23:24] <Hixie> that's what i went with too
# [23:24] <jamesr> Hixie, for <object> vs <embed> re display:none
# [23:24] <Hixie> more or less
# [23:24] <Hixie> yeah
# [23:24] <jamesr> queue a task, eh?
# [23:25] <jamesr> which task source? some new one?
# [23:25] <Hixie> same one as for other things that trigger the plugin on/off code
# [23:25] <jamesr> (wondering if ordering matters vs other tasks)
# [23:25] <Hixie> the DOM manipulation task source.
# [23:25] <Hixie> i guess that's bad
# [23:25] <Hixie> hm
# [23:26] <jamesr> i'm not sure we are super careful about that (making sure stuff is in the right task source)
# [23:26] <jamesr> not sure anyone is, to be honest. how tested is it?
# [23:26] <Hixie> not
# [23:26] <Hixie> :-)
# [23:27] <jamesr> normally you just toss everything into one queue and it all just works
# [23:27] <jamesr> where did you stick this new text?
# [23:28] <Hixie> for <embed> it's in the "potentially active" definition and there's an open bug on making sure it is triggered on a task and not sync
# [23:28] <jamesr> i may want to jack some of it for a css animations/transitions proposal
# [23:28] <jamesr> what section #?
# [23:28] <Hixie> and for <object> it's before the huge algorithm
# [23:28] <Hixie> uh
# [23:29] <Hixie> 4.8.3 and 4.8.4 apparently
# [23:29] <jamesr> found it (ctrl-f for the win)
# [23:29] <jgraham> No, ctrl-f for find is a horrible key combination
# [23:30] <jgraham> The Opera/Firefox setup is much nicer
# [23:30] <jamesr> actually i don't see this. are your changes on the whatwg.org version yet?
# [23:30] <Hixie> should be
# [23:30] <Hixie> that's the first version that gets regenned
# [23:30] <Hixie> yup
# [23:31] <Hixie> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7099&to=7100 is the diff
# [23:31] <jamesr> aha
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# [23:32] <Hixie> actually i guess using the dom task source is ok, since we're "guaranteed" that the layout will be redone when the event loop next spins [or i guess when the next time you call an attribute that has to do it synchronously], so it's a well-defined time
# [23:32] <jamesr> Hixie, "chnges" in the diff
# [23:32] <Hixie> thanks will fix
# [23:33] <Hixie> oh oops, i missed <embed> in the last checkin
# [23:35] <jamesr> explains that
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# Session Close: Wed May 09 00:00:00 2012

The end :)