/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-05-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 17 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <dtharp> TabAtkins_: sorry for being dense here... when you say "I dont think there's a compat problem", do you mean that if we implment the 'vm' alias for vmin, then at that point we do not have a compatibility issue? or are you saying we *currently* don't have a compat problem, and therefore should NOT implement the 'vm' alias?
  4. # [00:04] <annevk> per spec there is no vm unit
  5. # [00:04] <annevk> I think it would be wrong for a browser to support it
  6. # [00:04] <dtharp> IE10 supports it
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  8. # [00:05] <ShaneHudson> Does anyone know when IE10 is being released yet?
  9. # [00:05] <annevk> dtharp: just saying; if it's somehow required then it should be in the spec...
  10. # [00:05] <annevk> dtharp: cannot have every browser have to figure out on their own what to implement
  11. # [00:07] <dtharp> annevk: i agree. I have seen concessions for "common in the wild" stuff before, so was just trying to get clarification. It sounds like the right path here is to get MS to update thier test
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  17. # [00:18] <TabAtkins_> dtharp: Sorry for the delay. I think that there is no need to implement a vm unit, so we should leav eit alone.
  18. # [00:18] <dtharp> TabAtkins_: sounds good. I'll work with MS to have them update their test per spec. Thanks!
  19. # [00:19] * ojan_away is now known as ojan
  20. # [00:19] <TabAtkins_> I didn't even realize we had a computeLength() function, by the way.
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  22. # [00:21] <dtharp> TabAtkins_: its actually CSSPrimitiveValue::computeLengthDouble() in CSSPrimitiveValue.cpp
  23. # [00:21] <TabAtkins_> Oh, one of our internal functions. Gotcha.
  24. # [00:21] <dtharp> TabAtkins_: its the target fror a bunch of templates
  25. # [00:22] <ShaneHudson> Are any of you from Google?
  26. # [00:24] <TabAtkins_> ShaneHudson: I am. I don't think dtharp is.
  27. # [00:25] <TabAtkins_> (At least, his name doesn't have any matches when I search on our employee database.)
  28. # [00:25] <ShaneHudson> Excellent, is it alright to pm you?
  29. # [00:26] <TabAtkins_> ShaneHudson: Go for it.
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  34. # [00:28] <TabAtkins_> annevk: I doubt there's a compat need to support vm. IE was the only browser to support it, and use of the viewport-relative values wasn't common afaik.
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  39. # [00:31] <annevk> yeah
  40. # [00:31] <annevk> should have a negative test for vm really
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  47. # [00:46] <zewt> annevk: https://www.khronos.org/webgl/public-mailing-list/archives/1205/msg00135.html :|
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  50. # [00:49] <TabAtkins_> zewt: Holy mother of god no.
  51. # [00:50] <zewt> was: re: :|
  52. # [00:50] <TabAtkins_> Why? Why won't people learn? We made mistakes!
  53. # [00:50] <zewt> things not to take inspiration from:
  54. # [00:50] <zewt> java
  55. # [00:50] <zewt> xml
  56. # [00:50] <zewt> note: list not exhaustive.
  57. # [00:50] <zewt> (several times i've seen webgl people go "we can't do it that way. java did it and it sucked!" because clearly if java can't do something well, it can't be done, right?)
  58. # [00:50] * Philip` recently found that OpenGL and OpenGL ES have incompatible extensions with exactly the same name, which is fun, especially since some desktop GL drivers implement both GL and GLES extensions
  59. # [00:51] <TabAtkins_> I mean, for chrissakes, the XML people themselves finally admit that namespaces were a mistake.
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  61. # [00:52] <zewt> call me cynical, but it smells a lot more like "i want my name in the webgl spec, implement this random thing i thought of for a bunch of contrived reasons"
  62. # [00:52] <zewt> maybe i've just been doing the open source thing too long, heh
  63. # [00:53] <gsnedders> WebGL is a clusterfuck. Is this not obvious?
  64. # [00:53] <gsnedders> (News at 10, move on.)
  65. # [00:53] <zewt> it's not XML-level clusterfuck
  66. # [00:53] <zewt> that's more like clusterbomb-fuck
  67. # [00:53] <zewt> (is that a thing?)
  68. # [00:54] <gsnedders> clusterbomb-clusterfuck.
  69. # [00:55] <gavinc> at least XML got unicode and utf-8 by default right? ... than it added letting you set your own encoding which sort of lets it down a bit...
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  71. # [00:55] <zewt> we could go in circles for hours about what xml got wrong :)
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  73. # [00:57] <gsnedders> gavinc: Look at the EDBIC stuff in it, like dfn of space characters in 1.1 (there again, nobody gives a shit about 1.1)
  74. # [00:57] <gavinc> Speaking of which... if anyone here would like to point out everything we got wrong http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html# BEFORE going to last call. Other than it's RDF and is killing the web.
  75. # [00:58] <gavinc> Last call next week and all that
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  78. # [00:59] <zewt> does "i have no clue what this is for after reading the introduction" count?
  79. # [00:59] <gavinc> Yes.
  80. # [00:59] <zewt> (i have no idea what RDF is; a paragraph summarizing this in isolation, assuming no knowledge of whatever that is, might be useful--if that's possible)
  81. # [01:00] <gsnedders> gavinc: Have a N-Triple example in the Intro too.
  82. # [01:00] <gsnedders> (Ideally semantically identical to the Turtle one)
  83. # [01:00] <zewt> ("turtle" makes me think it has something to do with Logo. heh)
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  85. # [01:00] <gavinc> gsnedders: good point
  86. # [01:01] <gsnedders> gavinc: Don't recommend CDATA sections for embedding in XHTML (as then people will fail to handle the case where ]]> appears in a string)
  87. # [01:01] <gavinc> gsnedders: if you can show any other way of embedding in XHTML I'm all for it
  88. # [01:01] <gsnedders> "THe HTML lang attribute" has an obvious typo
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  90. # [01:02] <gsnedders> gavinc: Escape everything, as painful as it is.
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  92. # [01:02] <gsnedders> gavinc: But otherwise people are unlikely to handle ]]> correctly.
  93. # [01:02] <gavinc> gsnedders: mmm... does that work in polyglut documents?
  94. # [01:02] <TabAtkins_> I agree with gsnedders, since ]]> is a vital part of ascii fishes.
  95. # [01:02] <gsnedders> At least note "]]>" cannot be represented within a CDATA section.
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  99. # [01:03] <gsnedders> gavinc: CDATA doesn't, escaping everything does.
  100. # [01:03] <gavinc> Perfect.
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  102. # [01:03] <gavinc> also, don't use XHTML... but hey ;)
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  104. # [01:03] <gsnedders> gavinc: 12.3 uses what BNF form?
  105. # [01:04] <gavinc> ah, yes W3C EBNF...
  106. # [01:04] <gsnedders> gavinc: That seems to be noted in 5.4 but not 12.3
  107. # [01:04] * gavinc nods
  108. # [01:04] <gsnedders> gavinc: Why does it cite XML 1.0 3rd Edition and not 4th?
  109. # [01:04] <gsnedders> (Or, perhaps contravercially, 5th?)
  110. # [01:04] <gavinc> should be 5th...
  111. # [01:05] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  112. # [01:05] <gavinc> the link is to 5th...
  113. # [01:05] <gsnedders> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#sec-notation is the URL given, and it explicitly states an edition, which is obviously nonsense
  114. # [01:05] <gavinc> Yes.
  115. # [01:05] <gavinc> remove words Thrid Edition ;)
  116. # [01:06] <gsnedders> gavinc: Can you aggregate everything I've said and pass it along?
  117. # [01:06] <gavinc> faster, I can edit it ;)
  118. # [01:08] * gsnedders moves to #swig
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  165. # [02:12] <Bevan> picture++
  166. # [02:13] <Bevan> img set--
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  187. # [02:51] <zewt> Bevan: not helpful
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  193. # [03:08] <Bevan> zewt. Acknowledged.
  194. # [03:08] <Bevan> :)
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  245. # [05:55] <inclement_bore> ’twas two nights after srcset, and all through the chat
  246. # [05:55] <inclement_bore> not a creature was stirring, not even a... sig cat
  247. # [05:56] <inclement_bore> the use cases were hung on anything near
  248. # [05:56] <inclement_bore> in hopes that efficient scalable image delivery over the web ...
  249. # [05:56] <inclement_bore> ... would soon be here
  250. # [05:56] <inclement_bore> developers were nestled, all snug in their beds
  251. # [05:56] <inclement_bore> visions of media queries still danced in their heads
  252. # [05:56] <inclement_bore> implementers too, not impressed
  253. # [05:56] <inclement_bore> had just settled down for a long spring rest ...
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  272. # [06:53] <paul_irish> gy
  273. # [06:54] <paul_irish> (whoops. IRC doesnt start gyazo. ignore.)
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  292. # [08:00] <heycam> what's the reason appendix sections in CSS specs aren't numbered (like A.1, A.2, etc.)?
  293. # [08:01] <heycam> is is that the numbering scheme is ugly?
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  308. # [09:03] <hsivonen> heycam: at least some CSS appendix naming forms a joke, but maybe that was only for CSS 2 and 2.1
  309. # [09:03] <heycam> hsivonen, ah yes, for the appendix letters
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  311. # [09:05] <heycam> hsivonen, though notice how if you jump to the bottom of http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/cover.html that appendix sections get numbers while those in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#contents don't
  312. # [09:08] <hsivonen> maybe the letter thing is for CSS 2/2.1 only
  313. # [09:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: I've successfully browsed the Web with 1rem == 18px for years
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  325. # [09:46] <webben> What is the current pipeline for turning http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/source into http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#What_are_the_various_versions_of_the_spec.3F ?
  326. # [09:53] * Quits: richw (560acfe2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.10.207.226) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  327. # [09:54] * webben spots http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/Makefile
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  329. # [10:05] <jgraham> webben: Brown paper and glue. And magic.
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  331. # [10:06] <webben> jgraham: So I can see.
  332. # [10:06] <jgraham> Hixie has a highly-custom pipeline that is mostly calling various services that others are providing e.g. anolis, the (HTML-specific) spec spliter
  333. # [10:06] <webben> it looks like the w3c bits have makefiles
  334. # [10:06] <webben> is there a makefile for the whatwg "complete" version somewhere?
  335. # [10:07] <jgraham> No
  336. # [10:07] <webben> k
  337. # [10:07] <jgraham> Most of Hixie's pipeline is closed source because it is very environment specific
  338. # [10:08] <jgraham> But the complete version of the spec might be relatively easy to make since it is the most, well, complete
  339. # [10:09] <jgraham> http://pimpmyspec.net/ + the right options might get you a lot of the way there
  340. # [10:09] <jgraham> Of course, the output is conveniently provided, so I wonder what the motivation is ;)
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  354. # [10:46] * smaug____ doesn't always understand what people mean with 'polyfill'
  355. # [10:47] <smaug____> ahaa
  356. # [10:47] <smaug____> , silly word
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  369. # [11:26] <smaug____> We should decide at some point what to do with FileSystem API
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  371. # [11:33] <smaug____> hmm, webapps is the right place for that
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  388. # [11:49] <AryehGregor> Is there a command-line HTML5 validator that's easy to install and use?
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  394. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: I put https://bitbucket.org/sideshowbarker/vnu together experimentally
  395. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> can download from https://bitbucket.org/sideshowbarker/vnu/get/2759dcb15031.zip
  396. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> or just clone the reop
  397. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> *repo
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  399. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> see the "How to use the pre-built jars" part at https://bitbucket.org/sideshowbarker/vnu
  400. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> you can feed it a list of filenames
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  437. # [13:28] <Ms2ger> <TabAtkins_> othermaciej: Heh, I can't believe we didn't actually define when MQs are true. ^_^
  438. # [13:28] <Ms2ger> Really, you couldn't believe that?
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  441. # [13:40] <Ms2ger> Yeah, another respimg thread, why not
  442. # [13:41] <annevk> so Gecko/WebKit did not implement the binding pushState/replaceState correctly
  443. # [13:41] <annevk> and Opera can of course pick up the pieces
  444. # [13:41] <annevk> bah
  445. # [13:41] <Ms2ger> We didn't?
  446. # [13:42] <annevk> if you pass null as third argument it does not stringify to null but instead makes the argument ignored
  447. # [13:42] <annevk> or maybe Gecko uses ""
  448. # [13:43] <Ms2ger> We probably do use "", yes
  449. # [13:43] <Ms2ger> Our new bindings get that right
  450. # [13:43] <annevk> so we don't and that breaks YUI
  451. # [13:44] <annevk> WebKit does the same for undefined
  452. # [13:44] <Ms2ger> :/
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  457. # [13:49] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17087
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  459. # [13:49] <Ms2ger> Thanks
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  466. # [14:15] <annevk> Ms2ger: the 13 or so threads makes me think we should have more seemingly easy problems to solve
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  479. # [14:38] <annevk> in an async algorithm, are all observable changes queued tasks?
  480. # [14:39] <annevk> e.g. manipulation of the fullscreen elemetn stack
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  482. # [14:43] * annevk has the feeling nobody really cares about task queues
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  508. # [15:49] <zewt> well, task queues are really just partial order guarantees, right?
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  511. # [15:49] <zewt> (so if an implementation orders *all* queued events, they mostly don't have to care about them)
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  518. # [16:07] <EyePulp> 'morning. [to whom it applies]
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  589. # [18:28] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  590. # [18:28] <dglazkov> I think I need to start a Good Morning CG.
  591. # [18:29] * Ms2ger strangles dglazkov
  592. # [18:29] <Ms2ger> Good morning to you too
  593. # [18:29] <dglazkov> :)
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  598. # [18:41] <annevk> hsivonen: curious (re twitter), what should the EU have used instead?
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  602. # [18:42] <companyhen> Morning all. :D
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  606. # [18:46] * ChrisWilson mumbles something incoherent and goes and gets another cup of coffee
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  616. # [18:58] <Philip`> dglazkov: You ought to start a wiki page listing the use cases for having a good morning, before anyone will take you seriously
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  620. # [19:03] <EyePulp> heh - I just got that.
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  622. # [19:04] <jreading> hee
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  629. # [19:15] <dglazkov> Philip`: let's not forget the support forum, er.. mailing list.
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  633. # [19:17] <hsivonen> annevk: E for example
  634. # [19:18] <hsivonen> annevk: you know, like FF and DM were plain ASCII before euro
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  637. # [19:21] <annevk> heh
  638. # [19:22] <annevk> apparently our former currency didn't have a code point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florin_sign
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  640. # [19:23] <Philip`> On (at least) UK keyboard layouts, the € symbol is stuffed pretty inelegantly into a spare corner of the 4/$ key, which doesn't seem like great design
  641. # [19:24] <Philip`> (The ¬`| key is the only other one that typically follows that pattern)
  642. # [19:25] <annevk> hsivonen: the French had U+20A3 ₣ but also used F/FF indeed
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  645. # [19:28] <annevk> some more browsing reveals that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijani_manat does not have a Unicode symbol while they do have a distinct sign
  646. # [19:28] <annevk> weird
  647. # [19:29] <Philip`> http://www.tcmb.gov.tr/yeni/iletisimgm/TurkishLira.php - "The upward pointing parallel lines symbolize the "steadily rising value" of the Turkish lira and the Turkish economy." - does that mean they'll redesign the currency symbol if their economy collapses?
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  651. # [19:30] <annevk> heh, they got this one because it devalued so much
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  653. # [19:31] <hsivonen> before euro, Finland use an ASCII-only currency abbreviation "mk" and it worked great
  654. # [19:32] * gsnedders finds £ annoying with just ASCII — going for GBP as a suffix just seems weird
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  656. # [19:32] <Philip`> gsnedders: Use "lb" instead
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  658. # [19:33] <annevk> hsivonen: I typically use the three-letter code because that works great in Google :)
  659. # [19:33] <annevk> 1000 pen in eur please
  660. # [19:35] <hsivonen> in other news, it's terribly inconvenient that Ubuntu 12.04 ships Wine64 and the wine binary that ships with CrossOver (which looks like 32-bit Windows even on 64-bit host) is incompatible with winetricks
  661. # [19:36] <hsivonen> of course, CrossOver is supposed to make winetricks unnecessary, but CrossOver is broken
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  756. # [20:53] * tantek scrolls up and reads about currency symbols.
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  758. # [20:53] <tantek> There's definitely quite a variety of ways that folks publish currency amounts on the web.
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  760. # [20:54] <tantek> The three-letter code as annevk suggests is probably the easiest to both publish and search for.
  761. # [20:54] <tantek> But not what every locality is used to seeing - so...
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  763. # [20:56] <tantek> anwyay - if anyone is interested in either reading more on currency publishing practices on the web or has further real world examples to add, please take a look at: http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-examples
  764. # [20:58] <tantek> and currency related formats respectively: http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-formats
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  784. # [21:07] <gavinc> RDF HTML datatype in terms of DOM4 and HTML5 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-html
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  805. # [21:55] <annevk> gavin: why do you use <code> for what are <var>s?
  806. # [21:55] <annevk> euh gavinc
  807. # [21:55] <annevk> sorry gavin
  808. # [21:57] <annevk> gavinc: you don't need to invoke normalize()
  809. # [21:57] <annevk> gavinc: and if you don't pass a context element you'll get <html> and <body> etc. implied and you might get quirks mode parsing even...
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  815. # [22:09] <gavinc> annevk: isn't normalize needed before using isEqualNode?
  816. # [22:11] <gavinc> annevk: What should the context node be in that case?
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  827. # [22:29] <annevk> gavinc: normalizing already happens during parsing afaict
  828. # [22:29] <annevk> gavinc: dunno, kind of depends on what you want I guess
  829. # [22:30] <gavinc> annevk: A floating document fragment
  830. # [22:30] <gavinc> Something that came from, and be put back in a complete HTML document
  831. # [22:32] <annevk> hmm see discussion on public-webapps
  832. # [22:32] <annevk> we don't have a generic thing for that which works
  833. # [22:32] <gavinc> :(
  834. # [22:33] <gavinc> which discussion?
  835. # [22:33] <gavinc> all of it is going to take a good deal of reading... somewhere to start?
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  839. # [22:37] <annevk> i guess you could go with what you have now or wait until contextless parsing is defined
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The end :)