/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-05-20 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  22. # [01:54] <rniwa> Hixie, abarth: are you guys there?
  23. # [01:54] <rniwa> it appears that there is a slight bug in the spec with respect to parser-inserted flag
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  52. # [05:46] <heycam> jgraham, having SVG scripts firing all the same events as HTML, and having the same attributes -- that's what I'd like to aim for, with SVG2
  53. # [05:46] <heycam> jgraham, what browsers do right now I have no idea :)
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  101. # [10:21] <Ms2ger> "They're not intended to contradict"
  102. # [10:21] <Ms2ger> I'm glad to hear that
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  122. # [12:22] <Von_Davidicus> Evening.
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  127. # [12:31] <Von_Davidicus> XSLT can get information from multiple XML files, right?
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  130. # [12:42] <[tm]> Von_Davidicus: yeah
  131. # [12:51] <Von_Davidicus> Sweet! It works! *Dancedancedance*
  132. # [12:52] <Von_Davidicus> My XSLT file is becoming more and more of a conceptual disaster by the minute! Oh, if only I had a moustache to twirl!
  133. # [12:52] <gsnedders> XSLT seems to often end up like that.
  134. # [12:53] * Von_Davidicus cackles evilly.
  135. # [12:53] <Von_Davidicus> Actually, what I want is a camera--that I might photograph my teacher's face when I show him how I can make the simplest things complicated.
  136. # [12:55] <gsnedders> I'm sure you can find some over-complicated camera.
  137. # [12:55] <jgraham> odinho: Didn't we release our XHR testsuite already?
  138. # [12:55] <Von_Davidicus> Well... no, what I meant is the website I'm making for an assignment.
  139. # [12:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: The XHR/CORS one?
  140. # [12:55] <jgraham> Pretty sure annevk got it released during some spec transition
  141. # [12:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes
  142. # [12:56] * gsnedders has no knowledge of that
  143. # [12:56] <jgraham> http://w3c-test.org/webapps/XMLHttpRequest/tests/submissions/Opera/
  144. # [12:57] <jgraham> Oh it looks like there are more tests that aren't released yet
  145. # [12:57] <jgraham> That sucks
  146. # [12:57] <gsnedders> Is there anyone it doesn't suck to be?
  147. # [12:58] <Von_Davidicus> I'm in a rather silly situation: I must take a basic HTML course, even though I have done website coding professionally (college rules). My most recent assigment was to create a series of webpages on whatever topic--I chose Rune Words from Diablo II: Lord of Destruction. And, well... I am making things complicated.
  148. # [12:58] <jgraham> gsnedders: I'm not sure I understand the question
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  150. # [12:59] <gsnedders> jgraham: http://open.spotify.com/track/1Ns3qh9eOmLZZ8mNbfSPT9
  151. # [13:00] <Von_Davidicus> Why settle for HTML, when you can use XML + XSLT + WTH?
  152. # [13:01] <gsnedders> Von_Davidicus: Because you'll get marked down for needless complexity the teacher doesn't understand?
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  155. # [13:03] <Von_Davidicus> Even if I am, I think I'll have made my point--that I've done this sort of thing before.
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  158. # [13:11] <gsnedders> FAILED (errors=2710, failures=1345)
  159. # [13:11] <Von_Davidicus> ???
  160. # [13:11] <gsnedders> Progress on html5lib on Python 3!
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  162. # [13:15] <Von_Davidicus> Ah./
  163. # [13:33] <gsnedders> UnicodeEncodeError: 'utf-8' codec can't encode character '\ud800' in position 0: surrogates not allowed
  164. # [13:33] <gsnedders> Yay!
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  166. # [13:41] <jgraham> nice
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  168. # [13:45] <gsnedders> Disallowing invalid Unicode strings does seem like a decent change.
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  170. # [14:15] <gsnedders> jgraham: Amazingly, simpletree is the most annoying thing to get working with Py3
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  172. # [14:18] <gsnedders> (the real fun is can I get 2to3 and then 3to2 to produce something working, which should then have all strings as Unicode!)
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  180. # [15:07] <Von_Davidicus> Almost done updating my XSLT file. Just one last trick I have to pull off before I can claim it's complete. :)
  181. # [15:08] <Von_Davidicus> Actually two more tricks, but the second one is getting a bit over-the-top.
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  183. # [15:10] <Von_Davidicus> Question: Would you agree with the statement "XSLT is easier to understand when you think of it as a programming language, rather than a markup language"?
  184. # [15:12] <AryehGregor> I would also agree with the statement "XSLT is easier to understand when you think of it as a programming language, rather than a disposable paper cup".
  185. # [15:12] <AryehGregor> Generally it tends to be easier to understand things when one thinks about them as they are.
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  187. # [15:14] <Von_Davidicus> Well... one guy I know decided that a short essay I wrote about XSLT was full of... erm, leavings... and said that he quit reading after I said that XSLT was a programming language, not really a markup language.
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  189. # [15:16] <Von_Davidicus> My response was that it had "if" statements, it had "loops", it had input (an XML file), it had output (an XML DOM), and it was a pain in the butt to figure out, so it felt like a programming language to me.
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  191. # [15:20] <AryehGregor> It's definitely a programming language.
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  193. # [15:21] <AryehGregor> What's it marking up?
  194. # [15:27] <Von_Davidicus> Well, I'm not sure. I know it's an XML-based language, and the last two letters stand for "Markup Language"
  195. # [15:27] <Philip`> It's much more useful to look at what something is, than at what its name says it is
  196. # [15:27] <Von_Davidicus> Point taken.
  197. # [15:30] <jgraham> Well yeahFor sanity I find it is best not to look at XSLT at all
  198. # [15:30] <jgraham> s/Well yeah//
  199. # [15:30] <Von_Davidicus> How about Schema? do you ever look at XML Schema? :)
  200. # [15:31] <Philip`> Of course not
  201. # [15:31] <Ms2ger> What he said
  202. # [15:31] <jgraham> XML Schema are very important
  203. # [15:31] <Ms2ger> Actually, Philip` might look at XML Schema more often than at his canvas tests
  204. # [15:31] <jgraham> They are the perfect example of why, just because something is in a W3C spec, it doesn't mean it's a good idea
  205. # [15:32] <Von_Davidicus> ... but... but... *Has used schemas several times.*
  206. # [15:33] <Ms2ger> Don't worry
  207. # [15:33] <Ms2ger> You're already lost
  208. # [15:33] <Von_Davidicus> ???
  209. # [15:33] * Philip` sometimes gets the feeling that people write XML Schema schemas out of a sense of obligation ("we're designing an XML-based language and XML-based languages are meant to have Schemas, right?") rather than because they have any use for it
  210. # [15:34] <Von_Davidicus> Personally, I've found Doctypes more useful. I can specify Entities in them.
  211. # [15:34] <jgraham> Happily EmotionML provides those people with a convenient way to express the frustration this presumably causes
  212. # [15:34] <Ms2ger> The way that people write dtds because they want to use <blink> to make a point and they're employed by the W3C?
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  214. # [15:36] <jgraham> Oh actually it turns out that EmotionML doesn't allow yu to express any emotions at all
  215. # [15:36] * Philip` wrote a (internal) DTD because he wanted to use <canvas> in an XHTML 1.0 document without the validator noticing
  216. # [15:37] <jgraham> Because it needs an add on emotion vocabulary
  217. # [15:37] * Philip` subsequently learned the error of his ways
  218. # [15:37] <jgraham> And the WG couldn't agree on a set of emotions to include by default
  219. # [15:37] <jgraham> So instead they published a Note suggesting possible emotions that you might want to express
  220. # [15:38] <jgraham> (using URIs to provide emotion namespacing of course)
  221. # [15:38] <Von_Davidicus> So what do you meant, I'm already lost?
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  226. # [15:41] <Philip`> Von_Davidicus: You have strayed from the path of righteousness (i.e. of general scepticism and cynicism about XML and all related technologies) and there is no hope of recovery
  227. # [15:43] <Von_Davidicus> Yes. Yes, there is. And I have followed that path as well. On that path, there is a signpost, and it reads "<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//EN">"
  228. # [15:43] <Von_Davidicus> :D
  229. # [15:43] <Philip`> (I'm not sure that's true, though - some people have got better)
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  231. # [15:45] <Philip`> The IETF is stuck in a layby just off the path to righteousness, so you don't want to go that way either :-)
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  234. # [15:46] <Von_Davidicus> Yes, I've done pages in HTML 2.0--as a lark.
  235. # [15:47] <Von_Davidicus> To be honest, the *only* times I've done a webpage that *required* XML technologies was when I did a webpage that was XHTML + SVG (and maybe + MathML). The rest, well--HTML does fine.
  236. # [15:51] <webben> jgraham: EmotionalML is one of the funnier projects to come out of web standards works. :)
  237. # [15:53] <Von_Davidicus> So why are you all so cynical about XML?
  238. # [15:54] <webben> Von_Davidicus: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Namespace_confusion would be the start of an answer.
  239. # [15:54] <webben> Von_Davidicus: See also http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Why_no_namespaces
  240. # [15:55] <webben> I think someone produced a similar document for why draconian error parsing is not such a great idea
  241. # [15:55] <AryehGregor> Von_Davidicus, you know HTML5 supports inline SVG/MathML, right?
  242. # [15:55] <AryehGregor> So that doesn't require XML.
  243. # [15:55] <AryehGregor> (anymore)
  244. # [15:56] <Von_Davidicus> I do know that.
  245. # [15:56] <webben> Von_Davidicus: http://annevankesteren.nl/2005/11/draconian ... there have been other examples
  246. # [15:58] <webben> Von_Davidicus: There's little more persuasive than XML experts' content becoming inaccessible thanks to serving XML not text/html.
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  248. # [15:58] <webben> Of course, browsers increasingly give up and apply a HTML parser to broken XML, but then you might as well author HTML in the first place…
  249. # [15:58] <Von_Davidicus> What I hope to pull off sometime is XHTML + SVG + SMIL + MusicML + MathML (if I need the last)--but that project can wait for now.
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  251. # [15:59] <Von_Davidicus> annevk, why does your website say "SVG Sucks"?
  252. # [15:59] <webben> Von_Davidicus: Trying to produce content that can be accessed in zero browsers? ;)
  253. # [16:01] <webben> Von_Davidicus: It's a joke. (The image is SVG: http://annevankesteren.nl/img/daddy )
  254. # [16:03] <Von_Davidicus> Ah, okay.
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  256. # [16:04] <Von_Davidicus> Webben: Oh, I can do that: Just build a webpage whose content *cannot* be stolen, and I'm good. No, I've wanted to see if I could create a game using nothing but markup languages.
  257. # [16:04] <Von_Davidicus> And CSS and JavaScript.
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  289. # [17:45] <Tyson_> Any account creators here?
  290. # [17:45] <Tyson_> I need an account on the wiki
  291. # [17:46] <Tyson_> Please ?
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  297. # [17:57] <Ms2ger> annevk, maybe?
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  308. # [19:20] <jgraham> I'm not sure who the wiki admins are. Perhaps annevk, Hixie, Lachy, AryehGregor?
  309. # [19:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: So, any progress?
  310. # [19:22] <gsnedders> jgraham: 14 errors, 25 failures (8, 13 in Py2), excluding simpletree.
  311. # [19:23] <gsnedders> Video games happened, and not watching Magnolia.
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  313. # [19:23] <jgraham> Also, mercurial is making me a bit sad. I obviously use git too much
  314. # [19:23] <jgraham> It seems like not watching magnolia should have given you more time :)
  315. # [19:24] <gsnedders> *now
  316. # [19:25] <gsnedders> (Also, oh Tom Cruise's role in it…)
  317. # [19:26] <jgraham> Is that who you want to be when you grow up?
  318. # [19:27] <gsnedders> No. Hell no. Just, "really, just really?".
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  320. # [19:34] <jgraham> To be fair "really, just really?" is what I think of Tom Cruise in real life too
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  340. # [20:21] <ShaneHudson> Has there been any discussion of a html element for modal boxes? Currently it has to be done through javascript (or css I suppose) in quite a non semantic way
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  342. # [20:24] <webben> ShaneHudson: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/commands.html#the-dialog-element and http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#modal_dialog
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  359. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> jgraham, would you have time to land https://gist.github.com/2636212 at some point?
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  365. # [21:36] <gsnedders> jgraham: We have some utterly weird bugs under Python 2.
  366. # [21:37] <Ms2ger> s/under Python 2//, surely
  367. # [21:37] <gsnedders> They're not weird under Python 3, they're obvious hard errors.
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  369. # [21:42] <gsnedders> If you'd have told me Simpletree would be the hardest part of html5lib to get working under Python 3, I'd laugh.
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  380. # [22:18] <annevk> I created an account for Tyson
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  391. # [22:27] <jgraham> gsnedders: Such as?
  392. # [22:27] <jgraham> Also, what's the problem with simpletree, specifically?
  393. # [22:28] <annevk> http://images.4chan.org/v/src/1337537248434.png :)
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  412. # [23:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: I eventually realized it was down to __unicode__
  413. # [23:15] <zewt> heh
  414. # [23:15] <zewt> python 3 is one of the biggest botched transitions ever
  415. # [23:15] <zewt> it's like they were thinking: "everyone else needs a sane transition plan, but we're special and different and we don't need that nonsense" and years later everyone is still on 2.x as a result
  416. # [23:16] <zewt> perhaps only notable because python gets most stuff right, making that one really huge screwup stand out more
  417. # [23:17] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@cpe-98-14-168-178.nyc.res.rr.com)
  418. # [23:17] <gsnedders> They had a transition plan, which has mostly worked without too much issue. It's just Python 2.x is "good enough" so people don't bother with it so much.
  419. # [23:17] <gsnedders> 2to3 does genuinely work for most stuff.
  420. # [23:17] <zewt> it's pretty much an insane transition plan, heh
  421. # [23:18] <zewt> until every library is working out of the box with 3, i won't touch it (and since everyone else thinks the same thing, people don't rush to support 3.x)
  422. # [23:19] <gsnedders> And because nobody uses Python 3, libraries won't bother because Python 3 doesn't provide much more.
  423. # [23:20] * Joins: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@host-78-149-33-234.as13285.net)
  424. # [23:21] <zewt> if they were patient and released intermediary versions which always allowed code to be compatible with n-1 and n+1 versions, it would have gone much more smoothly
  425. # [23:21] <gsnedders> Eh, not sure they could have.
  426. # [23:22] <gsnedders> The Unicode change was always going to have to be a hard break.
  427. # [23:22] <gsnedders> And 2.6/2.7 include pretty much everything else.
  428. # [23:23] <zewt> not sure about that; might have taken some imagination
  429. # [23:23] <gsnedders> (Of course, post 3.0 releases have contained stuff not in 2.7)
  430. # [23:24] <zewt> well i should say rather than guaranteeing n-1 and n+1 compatibility, just allowing it--each new version might break code in the old one, but always allowing the code to be updated to work in both, so you never have code that requires the bleeding edge version
  431. # [23:25] <gsnedders> Eh, well, that's doable even with 2.x/3.x, just hard.
  432. # [23:25] <gsnedders> Because of Unicode being the default string type.
  433. # [23:25] <zewt> impractically hard and not designed to be done
  434. # [23:26] * Parts: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@host-78-149-33-234.as13285.net)
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  436. # [23:27] <gsnedders> It is somewhat designed to be done.
  437. # [23:27] <gsnedders> Support for u"" in Py3 is exactly for that reason.
  438. # [23:27] <gsnedders> Likewise b"" in Py2.
  439. # [23:31] <zewt> for example, a smoother transition would have been to make unicode the default without removing the str type; then leave it that way for a while before the str/unicode/bytes switch
  440. # [23:32] <zewt> that would have reduced the amount of incompatible changes done at once, so would probably have had less resistance
  441. # [23:32] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  442. # [23:33] <gsnedders> The *painful* part of the change would be dropping the implicit unicode/str conversion.
  443. # [23:34] <zewt> that never worked worth a damn anyway, heh
  444. # [23:35] <Philip`> It seems like the fundamental problem is that the 2->3 changes introduce more pain than benefit, and if you try to spread the pain over multiple 2.x versions so that people don't notice it, you're not actually making the situation any better - you're just tricking more people into accepting the pain
  445. # [23:35] <zewt> (since it always wants to default to ascii, for some unfathomable reason)
  446. # [23:36] <zewt> Philip`: when you take pain and spread it across a longer time period, there really is less pain :)
  447. # [23:36] <zewt> Philip`: but more importantly is that in practice, you can't have code that works in 2 and 3 (without 2to3, which is evil); a more gradual transition makes that more doable
  448. # [23:37] <zewt> also the fact that as a library developer, I don't want to spend time testing and supporting both 2 and 3, because there's no sign that 2 will go away any time soon; supporting 3.0 and 3.1 is less painful, since it's much more likely that the old version will fade away reasonably soon
  449. # [23:37] <zewt> it feels less like a permanent fragmentation
  450. # [23:38] <Philip`> Perl seems to have had a better approach - tell everyone that Perl 6 is the future and can be massively incompatible, so the language designers experiment with all sorts of crazy ideas in it, but never get around to implementing it properly, so no real user of the language has any difficulty in immediately seeing they should stick with the old stable Perl 5
  451. # [23:38] <zewt> (theoretical 3.0 and 3.1, that is, with 3.1 introducing some incompatible changes but it being entirely reasonable to update my code to work in both)
  452. # [23:38] <Philip`> and then figure out which of the crazy ideas worked and gradually introduce them in the 5.x series
  453. # [23:38] <zewt> heh
  454. # [23:39] <zewt> i never use perl for anything except shell one-liners anymore
  455. # [23:39] <Philip`> until eventually Perl 5 ends up in a nicer state and Perl 6 can remain dead
  456. # [23:39] <zewt> because almost without exception, any time i write anything in perl I end up regretting it a few months later and rewriting it in python
  457. # [23:39] <Philip`> and everyone is happy
  458. # [23:41] * gsnedders still likes Perl for stuff that is purely string manipulation
  459. # [23:41] * Philip` finds that a surprising amount of stuff is string manipulation
  460. # [23:45] <jgraham> zewt: I am told that 3to2 is a better plan than 2to3
  461. # [23:46] * jgraham doesn't like perl, particularly for string manipulation
  462. # [23:46] * Joins: Kasey (~kkellydes@cpe-76-181-198-184.columbus.res.rr.com)
  463. # [23:46] <jgraham> If I wanted to use regexps for basic operations, I would kill myself
  464. # [23:47] * Quits: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers) (Excess Flood)
  465. # [23:47] <zewt> i'm told that sticking with 2 is a better plan than jumping hoops for a lazy transition plan :)
  466. # [23:48] <zewt> regexes are generally great for writing something quickly that you'll never be able to understand again, ever
  467. # [23:48] <jgraham> Also, 3.3 seems like it will be the release that finally has critical mass
  468. # [23:48] <gsnedders> FWIW, my plan for html5lib is to get everything running on Py3, and then use 3to2 in future for Py2.
  469. # [23:48] <gsnedders> Because then we actually have Unicode strings everywhere we should (unlike currently), and we get hard errors when we screw the Unicode/str difference up.
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  472. # [23:51] <jgraham> http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=610450 <- this is pretty much what's wrong with Perl
  473. # [23:52] <jgraham> Well I say that
  474. # [23:53] <jgraham> That is pretty much one of a large number of things that is wrong with perl
  475. # [23:53] * Philip` doesn't see what's wrong with that
  476. # [23:53] <gsnedders> Nor I.
  477. # [23:54] * Philip` can write (and read) a regexp like that in far less time than it takes to look up whether the standard library function is called trim() or strip() and whether it trims all whitespace or just space characters etc
  478. # [23:55] * Quits: silentimp (~silentimp@64-224-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net) (Quit: silentimp)
  479. # [23:55] <zewt> you have to squint much harder at a regex to make sure of exactly what it's doing; it takes a lot more mental bandwidth to interpret
  480. # [23:56] <Philip`> (Oh, looks like it's actually called foo.strip())
  481. # [23:56] <Philip`> ((in Python, I mean))
  482. # [23:57] <jgraham> The fact that about 50% of all sites on the internet are dedicated to the question of how to trim whitespace in perl suggests that it isn't a very satisfactory solution
  483. # [23:59] <jgraham> (OK not 50%, but apparently it was asked so often it made the FAQ)
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  486. # Session Close: Mon May 21 00:00:00 2012

The end :)