/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-05-21 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Mon May 21 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <zewt> incidentally, it's not like regexes are any harder to use in python for lack of a special-case native syntax
  4. # [00:03] <Philip`> jgraham: That's good since it means new Perl programmers start by asking a nice simple question, which can be easily answered by the FAQ or by other Perl programmers, and the power and flexibility and applicability of regexps is thereby demonstrated to the new programmer, giving them the tools they can use for all subsequent questions they might otherwise ask
  5. # [00:03] <zewt> new programmers should never ever touch regexes
  6. # [00:04] <zewt> not until they have enough experience with saner approaches to know when they're appropriate
  7. # [00:04] <Philip`> whereas in Python the answer is "use str.strip()" which is a special case that is useless for most other manipulations
  8. # [00:04] <zewt> what's it useless for?
  9. # [00:04] <zewt> it's a very common operation, and implemented sanely: strip, lstrip, rstrip with an optional parameter to say exactly what to strip
  10. # [00:05] <Philip`> It's useless for e.g. removing multi-character prefixes/suffixes
  11. # [00:06] <Philip`> which is only a minor variant of the problem
  12. # [00:06] <zewt> a rare one
  13. # [00:06] <zewt> rare problems don't belong in the stdlib :)
  14. # [00:07] <zewt> and you're not actually arguing for perl, since python has regexes too, heh (and makes them clean to use)
  15. # [00:07] <Philip`> Rare problems are (in aggregate) pretty common, so it's good to have a common way of solving them :-)
  16. # [00:09] <zewt> (nothing is quite as nasty as regexes in C, with double-escaping)
  17. # [00:10] <tantek> zewt - my favorite quote about regexes is the one from jwz
  18. # [00:11] <jgraham> Alternatively newcomers will try to do something simple, notice that it requires them to enter something that is barely distinguishable from line noise, and delete the perl binary from their harddrive
  19. # [00:11] <jgraham> Thereby causing a number of critical system scripts to fail
  20. # [00:11] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@cpe-98-14-168-178.nyc.res.rr.com) (Quit: hij1nx)
  21. # [00:11] <jgraham> and bricking their machine
  22. # [00:12] <Philip`> When you have to write "baz = re.sub(r'foo', r'bar', baz, flags=re.IGNORECASE)" vs "$baz =~ s/foo/bar/i", the weight of the syntax seems like a not insignificant drawback
  23. # [00:12] <jgraham> (I assume they are not unfortunate enough to be using windows. If they are, the added misfortune of encountering OPerl might require spending time in A&E)
  24. # [00:12] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@FL1-211-135-237-201.tky.mesh.ad.jp)
  25. # [00:13] <zewt> i find i need to use regexes so rarely that having a native syntax just feels like core bloat
  26. # [00:13] * Quits: kolombiken (~Adium@c80-216-10-244.bredband.comhem.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
  27. # [00:13] <zewt> really the only benefit is that (in principle, at least) you can precompile the regex, which python can't do
  28. # [00:14] * Quits: esc_ (~esc_ape@178.115.248.240.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  29. # [00:14] * Philip` uses them rarely in Python because the syntax is painful and he can never remember it
  30. # [00:14] <zewt> eg. if you have a regex in an inner loop, and you want to avoid compiling the regex every time, you have to do it yourself
  31. # [00:15] <zewt> (it probably caches anyway; not sure, since it rarely matters to me)
  32. # [00:15] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@cpe-98-14-168-178.nyc.res.rr.com)
  33. # [00:15] <Philip`> (Perl precompiles them in practice, not just in theory)
  34. # [00:16] <Philip`> (so you never have to worry about it)
  35. # [00:17] <Philip`> (unless you happen to use a variable inside the pattern, in which case you can just add the /o flag to say you're not going to change the variable so it can be cached)
  36. # [00:17] <zewt> you mean it caches; perl doesn't even support precompiling
  37. # [00:17] * Parts: hij1nx (~hij1nx@cpe-98-14-168-178.nyc.res.rr.com)
  38. # [00:17] <zewt> (maybe it does now; I havn't touched it in quite a while :)
  39. # [00:19] <zewt> i find reading any $basic-esque language painful now, too
  40. # [00:19] <zewt> perl and php make me feel like someone's spitting punctuation all over the code
  41. # [00:19] * Joins: esc_ (~esc_ape@178.115.248.240.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  42. # [00:19] <tantek> zewt - how would you compare coffeescript?
  43. # [00:20] <zewt> dunno; don't know what it is
  44. # [00:22] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74)
  45. # [00:24] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@200.123.109.101) (Quit: Leaving...)
  46. # [00:24] <Philip`> zewt: I'm fairly sure it does precompile them - try e.g. perl -MO=Concise -e's/foo/bar/' vs perl -MO=Concise -e'$x="foo"; s/$x/bar/'
  47. # [00:25] <zewt> .pyc = precompiling
  48. # [00:25] <Philip`> where the latter's syntax tree includes regcomp() stuff to handle the regexp at runtime, while the former doesn't since presumably it's doing it all beforehand
  49. # [00:25] <zewt> (minor, yes :)
  50. # [00:25] <Philip`> .pyc = cached bytecode
  51. # [00:25] <tantek> coffeescript is: http://coffeescript.org/
  52. # [00:25] <Philip`> Caching != precompiling
  53. # [00:25] <zewt> pyc = compiled bytecode
  54. # [00:26] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-42-69.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  55. # [00:26] <zewt> tantek: not sure what the goal is, but first impression is unintuitive, overly novel, out of order expressions
  56. # [00:27] <tantek> goal is code that is more easily and quickly readable/writable than JS
  57. # [00:27] <tantek> but just as fast
  58. # [00:27] <tantek> better maintenance
  59. # [00:27] <tantek> less puncuation
  60. # [00:27] <tantek> *punctuation even
  61. # [00:27] <zewt> call me a conservative when it comes to language design, but a language needs to have *serious* advantages to justify deviating from the style that pretty much all major languages today share
  62. # [00:27] <Philip`> Perl and Python both compile into bytecode in RAM; the only difference is that Python caches it on disk afterwards
  63. # [00:27] <tantek> zewt - developer productivity is perhaps the biggest advantage possible
  64. # [00:28] <zewt> tantek: and needlessly deviating in language style reduces that sharply
  65. # [00:28] <tantek> and that's what coffeescript is apparently targetting. I haven't used it - but I've seen others be very productive with it
  66. # [00:28] <tantek> zewt - apparently the language style deviation is of minimal impact - devs pick up coffeescript very quickly
  67. # [00:29] <tantek> but in general I personally agree with the principle you mention of not unnecessarily deviating in language
  68. # [00:29] <tantek> avoiding NIH and all that
  69. # [00:29] <zewt> the style of this is a pretty massive turnoff to me
  70. # [00:29] <tantek> maximizing re-use
  71. # [00:29] <zewt> at least on first impression
  72. # [00:29] <tantek> ok - fair enough - that's a reasonable opinion
  73. # [00:29] <zewt> eg. out-of-order expressions; i really hate "y if x"
  74. # [00:30] <zewt> (Python makes that mistake with "y if x else z", which I strongly dislike)
  75. # [00:30] <zewt> C gets it right with x? y:z
  76. # [00:30] * Joins: anatolbroder (~bro@frnk-4d01cebf.pool.mediaWays.net)
  77. # [00:31] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@2002:55e5:dbde:0:1569:eb40:58f5:2f31) (Quit: tomasf)
  78. # [00:32] <zewt> (i'd call that one of the uglier bits of syntax in python; fortunately it's uncommon and isolated enough to not hurt often)
  79. # [00:32] <tantek> zewt - the ternary operator is quite portable: http://tantek.com/2012/090/t1/javascript-php-c-ruby-cassisproject-cassisjs
  80. # [00:32] * Quits: drollwit (~drollwit@c-67-183-156-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  81. # [00:32] <zewt> yep, lots of languages copy c's syntax (and I don't go far back enough to know if C copied it from something else)
  82. # [00:33] <zewt> which is another reason I don't like Python's, but the bigger one is it's just in a bizarre order--it's not just flipped (like y if x), it's twisted inside out
  83. # [00:35] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@mau49-1-82-245-46-173.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: tzing)
  84. # [00:35] <tantek> the non-standard order confuses me too - but I wonder if that's just because we're used to a standard order for such operations in programming languages
  85. # [00:35] <zewt> that's a pretty good reason to be confused by something :)
  86. # [00:36] <zewt> i can read it, i just have to untwist it mentally
  87. # [00:39] <tantek> right, but I wonder if that's just a short-term discomfort
  88. # [00:39] <tantek> like would we become proficient with a just a week or two of use
  89. # [00:39] <zewt> i'm "proficient" with it (python is my primary language these days); i just dislike it
  90. # [00:40] <tantek> oh I thought you meant coffeescript ok
  91. # [00:40] <tantek> I decided to go the other route and just use a more common subset across languages
  92. # [00:40] <tantek> hence CASSIS
  93. # [00:41] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  94. # [00:43] * Quits: Kasey (~kkellydes@cpe-76-181-198-184.columbus.res.rr.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  95. # [00:43] * Joins: Druide__ (~Druid@p5B135BC4.dip.t-dialin.net)
  96. # [00:44] <zewt> tantek: i think the fundamental error in that language is the idea that typing is the bottleneck in programming
  97. # [00:44] <zewt> which at least for me couldn't be more wrong
  98. # [00:44] <tantek> it's *a* bottleneck for sure
  99. # [00:45] <zewt> not for me
  100. # [00:45] <tantek> I've been much more productive in weakly typed langs vs strongly typed langs
  101. # [00:45] <tantek> ymmv etc.
  102. # [00:45] * Quits: Druide_ (~Druid@p5B1364C8.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  103. # [00:45] <zewt> that's not typing speed, heh
  104. # [00:45] <zewt> afk
  105. # [00:46] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  106. # [00:56] <wycats> anyone around who works on Selectors API 2?
  107. # [00:56] * Joins: Kasey (~kkellydes@cpe-76-181-198-184.columbus.res.rr.com)
  108. # [01:09] * Quits: sarspazam (~sarspazam@78-105-183-7.zone3.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: sarspazam)
  109. # [01:12] * Quits: anatolbroder (~bro@frnk-4d01cebf.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  110. # [01:18] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  111. # [01:24] * Joins: drollwit (~drollwit@c-67-183-156-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  112. # [01:29] * Quits: drollwit (~drollwit@c-67-183-156-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  113. # [01:42] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@76.14.70.183) (Remote host closed the connection)
  114. # [01:43] * Quits: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers) (Excess Flood)
  115. # [01:44] * Quits: eminor (~eminor@p548CF0DB.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: eminor)
  116. # [01:45] * Joins: Delapouite (~Delapouit@dsl-58-6-19-17.wa.westnet.com.au)
  117. # [01:45] * Joins: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers)
  118. # [01:55] * Quits: Kasey (~kkellydes@cpe-76-181-198-184.columbus.res.rr.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  119. # [01:56] * Joins: Kasey (~kkellydes@cpe-76-181-198-184.columbus.res.rr.com)
  120. # [02:00] * Joins: jondong (~jondong@123.126.22.58)
  121. # [02:00] * jondong is now known as Guest14604
  122. # [02:17] * Joins: darcyclarke (~darcyclar@dsl-66-185-212-186.vianet.ca)
  123. # [02:43] * Joins: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  124. # [02:44] * Quits: esc_ (~esc_ape@178.115.248.240.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  125. # [02:49] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@200.125.103.11)
  126. # [02:50] * Joins: esc_ (~esc_ape@178.115.248.240.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  127. # [02:51] * Joins: grantbdev (~grantbdev@ip174-70-100-162.no.no.cox.net)
  128. # [02:58] * Quits: grantbdev (~grantbdev@ip174-70-100-162.no.no.cox.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  129. # [02:58] * Joins: grantbdev (~grantbdev@ip174-70-100-162.no.no.cox.net)
  130. # [03:01] * Joins: teleject (~christoph@cpe-70-112-210-24.austin.res.rr.com)
  131. # [03:06] * Quits: mattgiff_ (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
  132. # [03:11] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106165.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
  133. # [03:19] * Joins: jryans (~jryans@cpe-70-124-81-135.austin.res.rr.com)
  134. # [03:30] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@50-0-92-247.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  135. # [03:44] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-149-162-44.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  136. # [03:59] * Quits: jryans (~jryans@cpe-70-124-81-135.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: Be back later)
  137. # [04:00] * Joins: drdt (~dydz@coffeebar.static.monkeybrains.net)
  138. # [04:01] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@coffeebar.static.monkeybrains.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  139. # [04:02] * Quits: drdt (~dydz@coffeebar.static.monkeybrains.net) (Client Quit)
  140. # [04:03] * Joins: dydx (~dydz@coffeebar.static.monkeybrains.net)
  141. # [04:03] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@coffeebar.static.monkeybrains.net) (Client Quit)
  142. # [04:05] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  143. # [04:06] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  144. # [04:10] * Joins: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-36-34-110.dynamic.hinet.net)
  145. # [04:14] * Joins: vimeo_joe (~vimeo_joe@pool-108-36-124-80.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
  146. # [04:19] * Quits: vimeo_joe (~vimeo_joe@pool-108-36-124-80.phlapa.fios.verizon.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  147. # [04:20] * Quits: yutak (~yutak@2401:fa00:4:1004:baac:6fff:fe99:adfb) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  148. # [04:20] * Quits: hamaji (~hamaji@2401:fa00:4:1004:1aa9:5ff:febf:8c3c) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  149. # [04:21] * Joins: yutak (~yutak@2401:fa00:4:1004:baac:6fff:fe99:adfb)
  150. # [04:21] * Joins: hamaji (~hamaji@2401:fa00:4:1004:1aa9:5ff:febf:8c3c)
  151. # [04:48] * Quits: adamadeane (~adamadean@219-89-86-42.adsl.xtra.co.nz) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  152. # [04:49] * Joins: twisted` (~twisted@p5DDBB986.dip.t-dialin.net)
  153. # [04:50] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@s1106165.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
  154. # [04:52] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106165.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  155. # [04:52] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  156. # [04:59] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  157. # [05:10] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@s1106165.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
  158. # [05:11] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106165.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  159. # [05:11] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  160. # [05:13] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@50-0-92-247.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  161. # [05:13] * Joins: adamadeane (~adamadean@219-89-86-42.adsl.xtra.co.nz)
  162. # [05:14] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  163. # [05:18] * Quits: adamadeane (~adamadean@219-89-86-42.adsl.xtra.co.nz) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  164. # [05:21] * Quits: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers) (Excess Flood)
  165. # [05:22] * Joins: kborchers (~kborchers@unaffiliated/kborchers)
  166. # [05:25] * Joins: adamadeane (~adamadean@219-89-86-42.adsl.xtra.co.nz)
  167. # [05:30] * Quits: grantbdev (~grantbdev@ip174-70-100-162.no.no.cox.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  168. # [05:36] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
  169. # [05:40] * Quits: darcyclarke (~darcyclar@dsl-66-185-212-186.vianet.ca) (Quit: Leaving...)
  170. # [05:42] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@200.125.103.11) (Quit: Leaving...)
  171. # [05:57] * Joins: grantbdev (~grantbdev@ip174-70-100-162.no.no.cox.net)
  172. # [06:01] * Quits: Kasey (~kkellydes@cpe-76-181-198-184.columbus.res.rr.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  173. # [06:02] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
  174. # [06:06] * Quits: grantbdev (~grantbdev@ip174-70-100-162.no.no.cox.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  175. # [06:07] * Joins: grantbdev (~grantbdev@ip174-70-100-162.no.no.cox.net)
  176. # [06:07] * Quits: jzaefferer (~jzaeffere@205.186.165.147) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  177. # [06:07] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  178. # [06:08] * Quits: scott_gonzalez (~gonzasi0@205.186.165.147) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  179. # [06:09] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  180. # [06:10] * Joins: jzaefferer (~jzaeffere@205.186.165.147)
  181. # [06:10] * Joins: scott_gonzalez (~gonzasi0@205.186.165.147)
  182. # [06:15] * Quits: twisted` (~twisted@p5DDBB986.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  183. # [06:16] * Joins: darcyclarke (~darcyclar@dsl-74-51-53-90.vianet.ca)
  184. # [06:28] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  185. # [06:55] * Quits: grantbdev (~grantbdev@ip174-70-100-162.no.no.cox.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  186. # [07:11] * Quits: adamadeane (~adamadean@219-89-86-42.adsl.xtra.co.nz) (Quit: adamadeane)
  187. # [07:15] * Joins: gavin__ (~gavin@76.14.70.183)
  188. # [07:18] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
  189. # [07:30] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.108.107.getinternet.no)
  190. # [07:35] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
  191. # [07:47] * Quits: darcyclarke (~darcyclar@dsl-74-51-53-90.vianet.ca) (Quit: Bye!)
  192. # [07:56] * Joins: Ducki (~Ducki@pD9E3975A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  193. # [08:04] * Quits: Ducki (~Ducki@pD9E3975A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  194. # [08:08] * Joins: Ducki (~Ducki@pD9E3975A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  195. # [08:10] * Joins: kolombiken (~Adium@c80-216-10-244.bredband.comhem.se)
  196. # [08:11] * Quits: kolombiken (~Adium@c80-216-10-244.bredband.comhem.se) (Client Quit)
  197. # [08:11] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  198. # [08:12] * Joins: kolombiken (~Adium@c80-216-10-244.bredband.comhem.se)
  199. # [08:12] * Joins: anatolbroder (~bro@frnk-4d01cebf.pool.mediaWays.net)
  200. # [08:13] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@ip-118-90-120-55.xdsl.xnet.co.nz)
  201. # [08:16] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@216.239.45.130)
  202. # [08:20] * Quits: anatolbroder (~bro@frnk-4d01cebf.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  203. # [08:23] * Quits: hamaji (~hamaji@2401:fa00:4:1004:1aa9:5ff:febf:8c3c) (Remote host closed the connection)
  204. # [08:26] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.108.107.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  205. # [08:29] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
  206. # [08:39] * Quits: kolombiken (~Adium@c80-216-10-244.bredband.comhem.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
  207. # [08:43] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.0.112)
  208. # [08:47] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-919ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  209. # [08:53] * Joins: MattWilcox (~MattWilco@elvendil.plus.com)
  210. # [08:54] * Joins: Von_Davidicus (~IceChat7@173.210.203.196)
  211. # [08:56] <Von_Davidicus> I got an interesting question today, and I thought I'd ask everyone here, since I', having difficulties answering it: "What does XML + XSLT do that XHTML cannot"?
  212. # [08:58] <othermaciej> if the context is displaying something in a web browser, then the correct answer is "nothing"
  213. # [09:01] * Joins: Kolombiken (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
  214. # [09:01] <Ms2ger> Turn you insane
  215. # [09:03] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
  216. # [09:04] <Ms2ger> wycats, anything in particular you wanted to know?
  217. # [09:04] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  218. # [09:04] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  219. # [09:05] * Joins: sarspazam (~sarspazam@78-105-183-7.zone3.bethere.co.uk)
  220. # [09:05] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  221. # [09:05] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
  222. # [09:08] <Von_Davidicus> What other contexts has XSLT been used in, then?
  223. # [09:10] <Ms2ger> Dunno, the Fukushima reactor?
  224. # [09:13] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
  225. # [09:16] <karlcow> Von_Davidicus: it can be used sometimes for displaying an XML document in another form in the browser: RDF file as XHTML or HTML, XML feed, etc. but this is not used a lot.
  226. # [09:16] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net)
  227. # [09:16] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@216.239.45.130) (Quit: rniwa)
  228. # [09:17] <karlcow> The draconian mode of XML has a nice side effect *for me*, which is to check without too much effort if the content is malformed.
  229. # [09:17] * Joins: gwicke (~gabriel@212.255.28.33)
  230. # [09:17] * Quits: hasather (davidh@nat/opera/x-fnuyrzrmpghrpwqr) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  231. # [09:18] * Quits: Ducki (~Ducki@pD9E3975A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: ;))
  232. # [09:18] * Joins: Ducki (~Ducki@pD9E3975A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  233. # [09:21] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
  234. # [09:25] * Joins: bert_ (~bert@178-119-203-34.access.telenet.be)
  235. # [09:26] * Quits: bert_ (~bert@178-119-203-34.access.telenet.be) (Client Quit)
  236. # [09:26] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@202.182.141.88.rev.sfr.net)
  237. # [09:30] <Von_Davidicus> I like that part of it, myself.
  238. # [09:32] <hsivonen> Von_Davidicus: if the context of the question is displaying stuff in the browser, then, as othermaciej said, there's nothing XML+XSLT can display in a browser that XHTML arriving over HTTP cannot.
  239. # [09:32] <hsivonen> Von_Davidicus: so what XML+XSLT allows you to do is to move CPU burn from your server to the user's device
  240. # [09:32] <webben> You can likely get a validator plugin for your browser to tell you whether content is malformed …
  241. # [09:32] <hsivonen> Von_Davidicus: so you get to burn the battery on the user's device
  242. # [09:34] <webben> Although nowadays people are more likely to push JSON to an HTML frontend page that uses JS to convert the JSON to more HTML, rather than XSLT.
  243. # [09:34] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
  244. # [09:35] <hsivonen> webben: yeah. I'm sure phone users who are low on battery appreciate designs that move processing to the edge of the network
  245. # [09:36] <Von_Davidicus> I see. Hm.
  246. # [09:36] <Von_Davidicus> How good are phones at displaying graphics on webpages?
  247. # [09:36] <othermaciej> there's plenty of ways to burn battery
  248. # [09:36] <othermaciej> complex CSS can be compute-intensive too
  249. # [09:36] <othermaciej> and sending more data means having the radio on longer
  250. # [09:37] <othermaciej> but generally, client-side XSLT tends to be a particularly inefficient way of doing things
  251. # [09:37] <tantek> certainly seems to be more CPU intensive
  252. # [09:38] <zcorpan> and delays rendering, doesn't it?
  253. # [09:38] <tantek> incremental rendering? who needs that? ;)
  254. # [09:38] <zcorpan> normal XHTML can be rendered incrementally
  255. # [09:38] <tantek> (zing)
  256. # [09:39] <tantek> well here's a question about what can x do in a browser that y cannot
  257. # [09:39] <tantek> what can XHTML do in a browser that HTML as well-formed XML cannot?
  258. # [09:39] <tantek> (per http://tantek.com/2010/302/b1/xhtml-dead-long-live-xml-valid-html5 )
  259. # [09:40] <othermaciej> it can give you a yellow screen of death
  260. # [09:40] <tantek> oh, like http://www.flickr.com/photos/tantek/5126607972/ ?
  261. # [09:41] * Quits: sarspazam (~sarspazam@78-105-183-7.zone3.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: sarspazam)
  262. # [09:44] <hsivonen> It's nice how "yellow screen" has been abstracted so that a pink box counts as yellow screen
  263. # [09:45] * hsivonen always has to look up the order of the arguments of strcpy :-(
  264. # [09:46] * Joins: Necrathex (~Necrathex@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl)
  265. # [09:46] <jgraham> It allows you to be the subject of browser developer wrath
  266. # [09:47] <jgraham> Although I guess HTML has a number of ways to do that
  267. # [09:47] * Joins: hasather (davidh@nat/opera/x-hiykcbwkcaqaxwqw)
  268. # [09:49] * Quits: MattWilcox (~MattWilco@elvendil.plus.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  269. # [09:49] * Joins: PalleZingmark (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
  270. # [09:52] * Von_Davidicus wishes someone, somewhere, would say XSLT is actually *useful*
  271. # [09:52] <webben> Von_Davidicus: Why?
  272. # [09:53] <Ms2ger> jgraham, document.all("foo")
  273. # [09:53] <jgraham> Von_Davidicus: davidc isn't in the channel at the moment, so he is likely to have missed his cue
  274. # [09:53] <Von_Davidicus> Because I spent so much blasted time experimenting with it!
  275. # [09:53] <webben> Von_Davidicus: Did you find it useful?
  276. # [09:53] <hsivonen> Von_Davidicus: if you know XSLT well and need to convert between two XML vocabularies that are not exactly isomorphic but not completely different, either, XSLT can be very useful
  277. # [09:53] <Von_Davidicus> As a client-side processing language for XML files, yes.
  278. # [09:53] <webben> I guess DocBook is an example.
  279. # [09:54] <webben> Von_Davidicus: Well, then you can say it was useful :)
  280. # [09:54] <karlcow> Von_Davidicus: it is useful, but not necessary in the context of live transformation in the browser
  281. # [09:56] <hsivonen> Opera 12 release process reminds me of Firefox 4. I wonder if Opera will move to rapid release after 12...
  282. # [09:58] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
  283. # [09:58] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
  284. # [10:00] <hsivonen> Whoa. StatCounter says Silk 1.0 exceeds Opera 11.6 usage in the U.S.!
  285. # [10:00] <karlcow> hsivonen: Opera just synchronized again with the year!
  286. # [10:00] <karlcow> the next one will be 13 in 2013
  287. # [10:00] * hsivonen didn't expect to see Silk on the charts
  288. # [10:00] <karlcow> :p
  289. # [10:01] * Quits: Necrathex (~Necrathex@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Leaving)
  290. # [10:03] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  291. # [10:06] <hsivonen> From the outside at least, Opera 12 looks like Firefox 4 in the sense that it has gotten stuck into over-long beta. Presumably there's something holding back release but it means that all the good stuff that's done isn't reaching users.
  292. # [10:07] <hsivonen> the sort of situation rapid release is meant to fix
  293. # [10:08] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@cl-2393.ams-05.nl.sixxs.net)
  294. # [10:41] * Von_Davidicus dances.
  295. # [10:41] * Joins: NimeshNeema (u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wfnersqsupvjmyak)
  296. # [10:42] <odinho> o/-< o\-<
  297. # [10:42] * Joins: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron)
  298. # [10:42] <Von_Davidicus> My assignment is complete.
  299. # [10:43] * Quits: Druide__ (~Druid@p5B135BC4.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  300. # [10:44] <Von_Davidicus> I think I mentioned earlier that I was doing an assignment for an HTML class to build a series of webpages--and instead of doing them in HTML, I've done them in XML + XSLT.
  301. # [10:46] * Joins: raphc (~rc@92.103.77.27)
  302. # [10:51] <Von_Davidicus> Anyways, the assignment is done--hopefully I get my point across. And for your enjoyment, the mess starts here: http://www.mrinitialman.com/Coding/D2Runes/Words/ancients_pledge.xml and http://www.mrinitialman.com/Coding/D2Runes/Runes/runeEl.xml
  303. # [10:58] <zcorpan> Von_Davidicus: http://annevankesteren.nl/2004/01/xml-versus-xhtml
  304. # [11:00] <charlvn> yeah i don't know how this is in any way new, we worked past this like 8 years ago
  305. # [11:00] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f730fcc.pool.mediaWays.net)
  306. # [11:01] <charlvn> afaik the conclusion was that server-side xslt is cool but client-side is a fail, unless anything changed since then?
  307. # [11:02] <Von_Davidicus> This isn't really meant to be new or edgy--but my HTML teacher has thus far refused to believe that I've done this before (I *have* to take an introductory course in HTML at college, dems da rules), so hopefully something overcomplicated like this will get him to reconsider.
  308. # [11:03] <Von_Davidicus> I -have- done a webpage in HTML5; a professional one: http://sheepmaster.zzl.org/ Some of the differences between HTML 4.01 and HTML 5 forced me to quite being so lazy with my JavaScript. :D
  309. # [11:04] <charlvn> to be honest i don't entirely "get" how this is relevant to the whatwg in 2012 but i guess it's cool as an academic exercise
  310. # [11:04] <jgraham> Von_Davidicus: It might make them believe that you need to be retaught the basics
  311. # [11:05] <charlvn> yeah exactly
  312. # [11:06] * Joins: MattWilcox (~MattWilco@elvendil.plus.com)
  313. # [11:07] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@80.231.76.54)
  314. # [11:09] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
  315. # [11:10] <Von_Davidicus> I thought it was fun.
  316. # [11:14] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  317. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> so apparently because of a problem with the way we have the W3C bugzilla instance set up, when you have several bugzilla tabs open, it's possible that a comment you submit for one bug in on tab ends up wrongly getting added to a bug open in another tab
  318. # [11:15] <othermaciej> that sounds extremely bogus
  319. # [11:15] * Joins: steve (~fragile@host86-132-138-217.range86-132.btcentralplus.com)
  320. # [11:16] <annevk> how is that possible?
  321. # [11:16] <annevk> named windows?
  322. # [11:16] * Quits: steve (~fragile@host86-132-138-217.range86-132.btcentralplus.com) (Client Quit)
  323. # [11:16] <odinho> Ahhh. Just like some bank websites. I love that.
  324. # [11:17] <odinho> They keep state using cookies with an ID I think, and keep state server side, -- so when you're suddenly in another place it messes up things pretty badly.
  325. # [11:17] <Ms2ger> Sounds like a browser bug to my neighborhood bugzilla developer
  326. # [11:18] <odinho> (I was not speaking of bugzilla btw, -- but evil ways of doing web services, which has frustrated me to no end before :P)
  327. # [11:18] <Ms2ger> "when you submit the comment, the bug id is fetched from the form, not from some other location"
  328. # [11:19] <MikeSmith> othermaciej, annevk - report came from a user who had observed the problem
  329. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: ok
  330. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> I will let the systems team know
  331. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> I think they had been thinking it had something to do with their mirroring setup
  332. # [11:33] * Joins: nessy1 (~Adium@124.170.221.202)
  333. # [11:33] * Quits: MattWilcox (~MattWilco@elvendil.plus.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  334. # [11:34] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-149-162-44.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  335. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> foolip: systems team is doing a DB migration right now
  336. # [11:37] <foolip> MikeSmith, thanks, that explain it
  337. # [11:37] <foolip> s
  338. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> it'll probably be a couple more hours at least before they're done
  339. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> I'll try to remember to ping you once they are
  340. # [11:37] <foolip> MikeSmith, thanks!
  341. # [11:39] * Quits: nessy1 (~Adium@124.170.221.202) (Quit: Leaving.)
  342. # [11:40] <Philip`> Von_Davidicus: From your page: xsi:schemaLocation="http://www.mrinitialman.com/Coding/D2Runes/RuneWords/ ../DataFiles/Runewords.xsd"
  343. # [11:41] <Philip`> Von_Davidicus: Surely that's broken (and invalid?) because of the space?
  344. # [11:42] <Von_Davidicus> Oh, thanks for the heads-up. I forgot to edit my files after I changed some directory names. Beg pardon.
  345. # [11:43] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p50829F27.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  346. # [11:43] <Philip`> Seems a bit odd having all this unwieldy machinery for validation and then letting through errors like that :-p
  347. # [11:47] * Joins: richt (richt@nat/opera/x-ucbqyjpldamgusio)
  348. # [11:49] <Von_Davidicus> Which validator did you use, that I may recheck my coding?
  349. # [11:49] <Philip`> I used my eyes
  350. # [11:51] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-123-253.dynamic.qsc.de)
  351. # [11:54] <Von_Davidicus> Hmmm.... *Tries to remember how to set up the schema location.*
  352. # [11:55] * jgraham wonders which schema format Philip`'s eyes use
  353. # [11:56] * Joins: nonge (~nonge@p5B3266BD.dip.t-dialin.net)
  354. # [11:56] * Joins: remysharp (u4345@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hakrbokqwkfopgvh)
  355. # [11:57] <charlvn> eye-based validation... i wonder if there is a spec for that :)
  356. # [12:00] <Von_Davidicus> Nope, that space is supposed to be there. But for some reason, it's not validating. I'll have to figure out why.
  357. # [12:00] <webben> the space is supposed to be there?
  358. # [12:00] <webben> seems very odd
  359. # [12:05] * Joins: eminor (~eminor@p548CF0DB.dip.t-dialin.net)
  360. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> Von_Davidicus: maybe you need to make it tab instead
  361. # [12:06] <Von_Davidicus> Yeah, it separates the namespace from the filename of the schema.
  362. # [12:06] <MikeSmith> or maybe it's a non-breaking space
  363. # [12:09] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  364. # [12:10] <charlvn> acording to my understanding it's any whitespace character http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-0/#schemaLocation
  365. # [12:11] <zcorpan> each(im.getAttribute('srcset').split(','), function (def) {
  366. # [12:11] <zcorpan> https://github.com/davidmarkclements/Respondu/blob/master/R.js
  367. # [12:13] <Philip`> Von_Davidicus: Hmm, I guess I'm confused - isn't http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/#xsi.schemaLocation defining that schemaLocation is a single URL (anyURI)?
  368. # [12:14] <Von_Davidicus> Not in any of the examples I've seen.
  369. # [12:15] * Joins: Druide_ (~Druid@p5B135BC4.dip.t-dialin.net)
  370. # [12:15] <webben> Von_Davidicus: Oh i c.
  371. # [12:17] <hsivonen> so many responsive image emails
  372. # [12:17] <hsivonen> every time I feel I have something to say, I feel I have to catch up with the threads first
  373. # [12:17] <hsivonen> and then there's more to catch up with
  374. # [12:17] * Von_Davidicus has even checked to make sure the schema URIs are correct
  375. # [12:20] <charlvn> Philip`: it's not entirely clear to me either but from my understanding it could be a list http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/#variety
  376. # [12:21] <Von_Davidicus> Well, my files follow every example I've seen, so I've no idea what's going on. :(
  377. # [12:22] <charlvn> the example on http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-0/#schemaLocation also shows this
  378. # [12:23] <Von_Davidicus> Oh, I was clicking a box I shouldn't have: "Check As Complete Schema"--the validator was treating my XML file as a schema, which it isn't. *Puts on dunce cap*
  379. # [12:24] <Von_Davidicus> With that box unchecked, things check out fine. :)
  380. # [12:25] <Von_Davidicus> And another validator doesn't do custom schemas. So, all is well.
  381. # [12:28] * Quits: esc_ (~esc_ape@178.115.248.240.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  382. # [12:29] <Von_Davidicus> I have a question about the HTML5 DOM--something I found a pain in HTML 4.01
  383. # [12:30] <Von_Davidicus> In HTML5, if you leave out the <tbody> tags, does that element still exist in the DOM?
  384. # [12:30] <webben> yes.
  385. # [12:30] <Von_Davidicus> What about XHTML5?
  386. # [12:31] <webben> the XML serialization has no implied tags
  387. # [12:31] <Von_Davidicus> Okay.
  388. # [12:31] <Von_Davidicus> Boy, were tables a trick to script for. It took me ages to figure out what was happening. ><
  389. # [12:32] * Joins: esc_ (~esc_ape@178.115.248.103.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  390. # [12:32] * Quits: Kolombiken (~Adium@217.13.228.226) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  391. # [12:34] * Joins: Kolombiken (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
  392. # [12:34] <Von_Davidicus> Ladies and Gents, I am headed out. :)
  393. # [12:34] * Quits: Von_Davidicus (~IceChat7@173.210.203.196) (Quit: Pull the pin and count to what?)
  394. # [12:37] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-211-135-237-201.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  395. # [12:38] * Joins: [[zzz]] (~q@node-4p3.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net)
  396. # [12:40] * Joins: Necrathex (~Necrathex@82-169-245-3.ip.telfort.nl)
  397. # [12:42] * Quits: [[zz]] (~q@node-nbp.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  398. # [12:42] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@FL1-122-130-129-42.tky.mesh.ad.jp)
  399. # [12:44] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  400. # [12:47] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  401. # [12:52] * Quits: raphc (~rc@92.103.77.27) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  402. # [12:52] * Joins: raphc (~rc@92.103.77.27)
  403. # [12:56] * Joins: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.181.133)
  404. # [13:00] * Joins: othree (~othree@li379-129.members.linode.com)
  405. # [13:00] * Quits: othree (~othree@li379-129.members.linode.com) (Client Quit)
  406. # [13:08] * Quits: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.181.133) (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
  407. # [13:12] <odinho> hsivonen: Yes. I participated heavily in the beginning, but felt that it didn't really help, because the ones replying didn't really read and understand it anyway...
  408. # [13:18] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-42-69.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  409. # [13:26] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  410. # [13:34] * Quits: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  411. # [13:38] * Joins: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron)
  412. # [13:53] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-919ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  413. # [13:54] * Joins: jryans (~jryans@office.massrel.com)
  414. # [13:56] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@ip-118-90-120-55.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  415. # [14:03] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
  416. # [14:09] * Joins: Kasey (~kkellydes@cpe-76-181-198-184.columbus.res.rr.com)
  417. # [14:12] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  418. # [14:21] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  419. # [14:25] * Joins: rworth (~rworth@pool-173-66-213-252.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  420. # [14:29] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189)
  421. # [14:30] <david_carlisle> jgraham: Just for you: XSLT is actually *useful*
  422. # [14:31] * Ms2ger sniggers
  423. # [14:34] * Joins: MattWilcox (~MattWilco@elvendil.plus.com)
  424. # [14:35] * jgraham just came acrss an old copy of "Dr Dobbs Journal" from like 2000 or so containing a Microsoft advert featuring someone from Ask Jeeves explaining how XML in visual studio was helping them scale to meet business needs
  425. # [14:35] <jgraham> It was hillarious
  426. # [14:35] <jgraham> No justification of why XML solved any problems
  427. # [14:36] <jgraham> Just the magic letters X M and L were assumed to be a selling point
  428. # [14:37] <david_carlisle> jgraham: well that's always the way. json or html(5) or whatever or sticking "java" at the front of "javascript", people like to have buzzwords
  429. # [14:41] <jgraham> Indeed. I look forward to the future when people laugh at things that talk about "mobile-first responsive HTML5" or whatever today's buzzword bingo entries are
  430. # [14:41] <gsnedders> Web 2.0-enabled HTML5 mobile interface featuring WebGL!
  431. # [14:43] <Philip`> We should fight against the buzzwordification of pragmatic technologies by giving them names that cannot possibly be used with a straight face
  432. # [14:44] <Philip`> Rename HTML5 to something like "SynergML" and then nobody can use it unironically
  433. # [14:44] <jgraham> Like AJAX?
  434. # [14:44] <Philip`> "ECMAScript" was a good one
  435. # [14:44] <gsnedders> W3CML
  436. # [14:44] <gsnedders> WHATML
  437. # [14:45] <jgraham> Really should have gone with the task force in that case
  438. # [14:49] <odinho> I said "responsive" "mobile-first" and a few others at a party, annevk and richt laughed at it IIRC. So given the right people we're already there!
  439. # [14:50] <jgraham> Wait, what?
  440. # [14:50] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@186.18.58.178)
  441. # [14:50] <jgraham> I don't understand
  442. # [14:50] <jgraham> "party"?
  443. # [14:52] * Joins: jdong_bot_ (~jdong_bot@117.79.233.244)
  444. # [14:52] <odinho> jgraham: -> 14:32 < jgraham> Indeed. I look forward to the future when people laugh at things that talk about "mobile-first responsive HTML5" or whatever today's buzzword bingo entries are
  445. # [14:53] <odinho> jgraham: Or is it the party that's hard to understand? :P It's was Lachy's birthday party.
  446. # [14:55] * Quits: MattWilcox (~MattWilco@elvendil.plus.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  447. # [14:57] <Ms2ger> odinho, shh, jgraham wasn't invited
  448. # [14:58] <odinho> oh f...
  449. # [14:58] <gsnedders> I guess that's what he gets for not having FB.
  450. # [14:59] <odinho> I didn't either, but I was in the same office as Lachy, so it was OK. I guess I'll be missing out now though...
  451. # [14:59] * Joins: twisted` (~twisted@p5DDBB986.dip.t-dialin.net)
  452. # [15:03] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  453. # [15:11] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@80.231.76.54) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  454. # [15:11] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@80.231.76.54)
  455. # [15:17] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Quit: tomasf)
  456. # [15:18] * Joins: graememcc (~chatzilla@host86-148-162-136.range86-148.btcentralplus.com)
  457. # [15:26] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-919ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  458. # [15:36] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-919ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  459. # [15:37] * miketaylr is now known as miketaylrawaylol
  460. # [15:37] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-919ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  461. # [15:44] * miketaylrawaylol is now known as miketaylr
  462. # [15:45] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  463. # [15:47] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se)
  464. # [15:48] * Joins: jreading (~Adium@204.56.125.50)
  465. # [15:48] * Joins: brent_ (aa8c6801@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.140.104.1)
  466. # [15:49] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@186.18.58.178) (Quit: Leaving...)
  467. # [15:52] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  468. # [15:53] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se)
  469. # [15:57] * Joins: vimeo_joe (~vimeo_joe@c-68-83-180-136.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
  470. # [16:01] <zcorpan> // Time in seconds within which the media is seekable.
  471. # [16:01] <zcorpan> var seekableEnd = audio.seekable.end();
  472. # [16:01] <zcorpan> http://html5doctor.com/html5-audio-the-state-of-play/
  473. # [16:01] <zcorpan> maybe we should give up and make the argument optional
  474. # [16:04] * Quits: Necrathex (~Necrathex@82-169-245-3.ip.telfort.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  475. # [16:07] * Joins: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.181.133)
  476. # [16:08] * Joins: scor (~scor@static-216-41-81-42.ngn.onecommunications.net)
  477. # [16:08] * Quits: scor (~scor@static-216-41-81-42.ngn.onecommunications.net) (Changing host)
  478. # [16:08] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  479. # [16:11] * Joins: ksweeney (~Kevin_Swe@nyv-exweb.iac.com)
  480. # [16:16] * Joins: tndrH (~Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  481. # [16:16] <zewt> seems wrong that a 5. isn't a "valid floating point number"
  482. # [16:21] * Joins: chippper (~chippper@98.124.166.96)
  483. # [16:21] * Joins: skylamer` (cgskylamer@78.90.213.55)
  484. # [16:22] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@s1106047.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
  485. # [16:23] * Quits: ajpiano (~ajpiano@li98-57.members.linode.com) (Excess Flood)
  486. # [16:24] * Joins: ajpiano (~ajpiano@li98-57.members.linode.com)
  487. # [16:24] * Joins: Necrathex (~Necrathex@82-169-245-3.ip.telfort.nl)
  488. # [16:24] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106165.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  489. # [16:24] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  490. # [16:26] * Quits: Delapouite (~Delapouit@dsl-58-6-19-17.wa.westnet.com.au) (Remote host closed the connection)
  491. # [16:37] * Joins: pranesh (~sol@117.192.18.25)
  492. # [16:37] * Quits: jdong_bot_ (~jdong_bot@117.79.233.244) (Remote host closed the connection)
  493. # [16:40] * Quits: Kolombiken (~Adium@217.13.228.226) (Quit: Leaving.)
  494. # [16:44] * Joins: DNR (~DNR@201.74.188.179)
  495. # [16:45] * Quits: Ducki (~Ducki@pD9E3975A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: ;))
  496. # [16:47] <foolip> MikeSmith, still migrating?
  497. # [16:47] <MikeSmith> foolip: ah!
  498. # [16:47] <MikeSmith> no, should be done now
  499. # [16:47] <foolip> ok, I'll try filing that issue again
  500. # [16:48] <MikeSmith> yup
  501. # [16:48] <foolip> MikeSmith, it works now!
  502. # [16:48] <MikeSmith> super
  503. # [16:49] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@cl-2393.ams-05.nl.sixxs.net) (Quit: leaving)
  504. # [16:49] * Parts: ksweeney (~Kevin_Swe@nyv-exweb.iac.com)
  505. # [16:53] <david_carlisle> Philip`: (schemaLocation is a space separated list of URI (that's one of it's problems) the other one (in general) is that every other URI points at an XSD schema, and in this forum the remaining problem is that the remaining half of the URI are namespaces. Apart from those three minor issues. It's brilliant.
  506. # [16:54] * Quits: eminor (~eminor@p548CF0DB.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  507. # [16:54] <david_carlisle> its
  508. # [17:02] * Joins: snowfox (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  509. # [17:06] <Philip`> david_carlisle: Am I missing some part of the spec where schemaLocation is defined as a space separated list, instead of as a single URI, other than examples and notes?
  510. # [17:07] <Philip`> (Not that it actually matters; I'm just curious about to what extent I'm misunderstanding stuff)
  511. # [17:07] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@80.231.76.54) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  512. # [17:08] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  513. # [17:08] * Parts: Kasey (~kkellydes@cpe-76-181-198-184.columbus.res.rr.com) ("Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/")
  514. # [17:10] <Philip`> Oh, I think see something I didn't see
  515. # [17:12] <Philip`> namely that http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/#xsi.schemaLocation says "{variety} list"
  516. # [17:14] <Philip`> so it's less confusing than I thought
  517. # [17:14] <Philip`> so never mind
  518. # [17:17] * Quits: Necrathex (~Necrathex@82-169-245-3.ip.telfort.nl) (Read error: No route to host)
  519. # [17:19] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-36-34-110.dynamic.hinet.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  520. # [17:20] * Joins: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-36-34-110.dynamic.hinet.net)
  521. # [17:21] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-919ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  522. # [17:22] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  523. # [17:22] * Joins: Necrathex (~Necrathex@82-169-245-3.ip.telfort.nl)
  524. # [17:28] * Joins: scor (~scor@132.183.243.191)
  525. # [17:28] * Quits: scor (~scor@132.183.243.191) (Changing host)
  526. # [17:28] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
  527. # [17:28] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@80.231.76.54)
  528. # [17:30] * Joins: temp02 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  529. # [17:32] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106047.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  530. # [17:32] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  531. # [17:33] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-122-130-129-42.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  532. # [17:34] * Joins: edwardbc (~edward.ba@186.176.193.20)
  533. # [17:35] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@80.231.76.54) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  534. # [17:40] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106047.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
  535. # [17:42] * Quits: PalleZingmark (~Adium@217.13.228.226) (Quit: Leaving.)
  536. # [17:43] * Joins: davatron5000 (~dave@cpe-66-25-175-141.austin.res.rr.com)
  537. # [17:50] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se) (Quit: tomasf)
  538. # [17:51] * Quits: jochen__ (jochen@nat/google/x-pcugdsfxkmuiayht) (Remote host closed the connection)
  539. # [17:51] * Joins: jochen__ (jochen@nat/google/x-rpuffyiqgismzjat)
  540. # [17:56] * Quits: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.181.133) (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
  541. # [18:06] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  542. # [18:07] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@80.231.76.54)
  543. # [18:10] <gsnedders> I wonder what a reimpl of the jQuery API targetting just nightly builds of browsers would look like.
  544. # [18:10] <gsnedders> (wrt the shrinking libraries thread)
  545. # [18:10] * Quits: gnarf (~gnarf@unaffiliated/gnarf) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  546. # [18:10] * Quits: hober (~ted@unaffiliated/hober) (Remote host closed the connection)
  547. # [18:14] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:224:d7ff:fef0:8d90)
  548. # [18:15] * Joins: gnarf (~gnarf@unaffiliated/gnarf)
  549. # [18:17] * Joins: srjosh (~Adium@99-100-33-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
  550. # [18:20] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-oupfssftjjnokywo)
  551. # [18:20] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@c-dedbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  552. # [18:21] * Parts: teleject (~christoph@cpe-70-112-210-24.austin.res.rr.com)
  553. # [18:25] * Joins: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  554. # [18:32] <dglazkov> good morning, WhatWg!
  555. # [18:35] * Joins: drollwit (~drollwit@c-67-183-156-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  556. # [18:35] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-efumwjbduxvzihlj)
  557. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> Good, dglazkov
  558. # [18:40] * Joins: hober (~ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  559. # [18:42] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@202.182.141.88.rev.sfr.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  560. # [18:43] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@67.131.102.78)
  561. # [18:48] * Joins: pablof (~pablof@144.189.101.1)
  562. # [18:49] * Quits: pranesh (~sol@117.192.18.25) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  563. # [18:51] * Joins: Kolombiken (~Adium@c80-216-10-244.bredband.comhem.se)
  564. # [18:54] * Joins: jsbell (jsbell@nat/google/x-dbagathakssnxtov)
  565. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: you around?
  566. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> I can push the mathml3 validator updates any time
  567. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> but I would like to have help with testing it after I do
  568. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> to make sure I get everything pushed
  569. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> the instance I pointed you to before was code straight from my workspace
  570. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> and experience tells me that sometimes I don't manage to get everything pushed that's needed
  571. # [18:58] * Joins: ap_ (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:cd0c:aad3:a74c:4cf6)
  572. # [19:00] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: yes
  573. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> OK
  574. # [19:00] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f730fcc.pool.mediaWays.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  575. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> I will give it try now
  576. # [19:01] * Parts: jreading (~Adium@204.56.125.50)
  577. # [19:01] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f730fcc.pool.mediaWays.net)
  578. # [19:01] <david_carlisle> ooh OK I'll stay here for a bit then:-)
  579. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> I don't have the most efficient system for deploying
  580. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> there are 5 validator hosts and I need to ssh into each an manually do updates
  581. # [19:02] * Joins: pranesh (~sol@117.192.2.93)
  582. # [19:03] * Joins: tgecho1 (~tgecho@66.55.201.102)
  583. # [19:06] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f730fcc.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  584. # [19:06] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  585. # [19:07] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  586. # [19:08] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  587. # [19:10] * Joins: MattWilcox (~MattWilco@elvendil.plus.com)
  588. # [19:10] * Joins: sarspazam (~sarspazam@78-105-183-7.zone3.bethere.co.uk)
  589. # [19:11] * Joins: espadrine (~thaddee_t@nat/mozilla/x-tqrnwjswisjrzmhu)
  590. # [19:13] * Joins: AryehGregor (~Simetrica@mediawiki/simetrical)
  591. # [19:14] * Joins: cullenjennings (~fluffy@nat/cisco/x-hbxmmkvualncsext)
  592. # [19:14] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-4d02964e.pool.mediaWays.net)
  593. # [19:18] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, dvcs.w3.org appears down
  594. # [19:18] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@80.231.76.54) (Remote host closed the connection)
  595. # [19:19] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@80.231.76.54)
  596. # [19:19] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: thanks, checking ow
  597. # [19:19] <MikeSmith> *now
  598. # [19:19] <Ms2ger> Ta
  599. # [19:20] <MikeSmith> "Restarting web server: apache2 ... waiting ............."
  600. # [19:20] <Ms2ger> Reported back
  601. # [19:20] <MikeSmith> workign now
  602. # [19:20] <MikeSmith> yeah
  603. # [19:21] <MikeSmith> if it becomes not available again please ping me
  604. # [19:21] <Ms2ger> Will do, thanks
  605. # [19:23] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@80.231.76.54) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  606. # [19:24] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@s1106071.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
  607. # [19:26] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  608. # [19:26] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@86.188.197.189) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  609. # [19:27] * Quits: moo-_- (miohtama@2001:1bc8:1004::1) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  610. # [19:28] * Quits: AryehGregor (~Simetrica@mediawiki/simetrical) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  611. # [19:28] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106047.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  612. # [19:28] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  613. # [19:31] * Joins: arv (u4269@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-piqhcxzjumunkyro)
  614. # [19:32] <Ms2ger> Philip`, failed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17141 for you
  615. # [19:33] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@50-0-92-247.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  616. # [19:34] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@FL1-122-130-129-42.tky.mesh.ad.jp)
  617. # [19:35] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:149:4:1b01:19f8:dde3:9783:8f41)
  618. # [19:35] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:149:4:1b01:19f8:dde3:9783:8f41) (Client Quit)
  619. # [19:36] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-oupfssftjjnokywo) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  620. # [19:36] * Joins: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@mau49-1-82-245-46-173.fbx.proxad.net)
  621. # [19:37] * Quits: jamesr (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  622. # [19:37] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:149:4:1b01:19f8:dde3:9783:8f41)
  623. # [19:37] * Quits: temp02 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  624. # [19:38] * Parts: srjosh (~Adium@99-100-33-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
  625. # [19:38] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-122-130-129-42.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  626. # [19:39] * Joins: moo-_- (miohtama@lakka.kapsi.fi)
  627. # [19:39] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-xzmmckcxsvsvgknf)
  628. # [19:40] * Quits: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron) (Quit: Leaving.)
  629. # [19:43] * Quits: gwicke (~gabriel@212.255.28.33) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  630. # [19:43] * Joins: AryehGregor (~Simetrica@mediawiki/simetrical)
  631. # [19:48] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  632. # [19:49] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106071.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  633. # [19:54] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  634. # [19:56] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-123-253.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  635. # [19:57] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106071.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
  636. # [19:57] <jgraham> Doesn't allowing min-* and max-* in srcset significantly complicate the processing
  637. # [19:57] <jgraham> ?
  638. # [19:57] <jgraham> For example at the moment it isn't possible to have gaps
  639. # [19:58] <jgraham> I guess you could use the rule that the src image is used if there's no other candidate
  640. # [19:59] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Yeah, it does. I suspect it's worthwhile, though.
  641. # [19:59] * Quits: MattWilcox (~MattWilco@elvendil.plus.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  642. # [20:01] <jgraham> I'm not sure it's not worthwhile, it just takes a conceptually simple model and makes it less simple :)
  643. # [20:01] <jgraham> s/sure/saying/
  644. # [20:02] * Joins: MattWilcox (~MattWilco@elvendil.plus.com)
  645. # [20:03] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-xzmmckcxsvsvgknf) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  646. # [20:03] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-fzjknitbifrzrwuw)
  647. # [20:04] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.108.107.getinternet.no)
  648. # [20:05] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-efumwjbduxvzihlj) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  649. # [20:07] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  650. # [20:08] * Quits: raphc (~rc@92.103.77.27) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  651. # [20:11] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-iouusrknmrtarrpd)
  652. # [20:11] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-dvleeetswonairhs)
  653. # [20:12] * Quits: vimeo_joe (~vimeo_joe@c-68-83-180-136.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  654. # [20:13] * Quits: llrcombs (~llrcombs@64.130.210.214) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  655. # [20:22] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  656. # [20:22] * Joins: rniwa_ (rniwa@nat/google/x-ahyrsdnbalcnbilk)
  657. # [20:23] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@nat/google/x-dvleeetswonairhs) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  658. # [20:23] * rniwa_ is now known as rniwa
  659. # [20:25] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-104-107.dynamic.t-2.net)
  660. # [20:28] * Quits: MattWilcox (~MattWilco@elvendil.plus.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  661. # [20:29] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  662. # [20:29] <david_carlisle> im back:-)
  663. # [20:30] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@80.231.76.54)
  664. # [20:37] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@80.231.76.54) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  665. # [20:41] <TabAtkins> david_carlisle: Yo, I had a question for you a few weeks back.
  666. # [20:42] <TabAtkins> Does MathML have a good definition of "bounding box" of its internal elements? Content: CSS Images 4 has an element() function that lets you use an element as an image. All it needs to be able to do so is the bounding box of the element, so it knows what size the image is.
  667. # [20:42] <TabAtkins> For HTML and SVG this is pretty simple, but I'm not familiar enough with MathML's rendering model to know if it has such a concept.
  668. # [20:44] * Quits: graememcc (~chatzilla@host86-148-162-136.range86-148.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 11.0/20120310193349])
  669. # [20:44] * Quits: cullenjennings (~fluffy@nat/cisco/x-hbxmmkvualncsext) (Quit: cullenjennings)
  670. # [20:49] <david_carlisle> TabAtkins: Probably good enough see perhaps http://www.w3.org/Math/draft-spec/mathml.html#chapter3_presm.mpadded the wording in MathML is a bit wooly as mathml doesn't enforce a css style box model, so eg mathematica or tex or whatever can render it, but you don't care about that in a mathml in html context
  671. # [20:51] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@s1106094.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
  672. # [20:52] <TabAtkins> david_carlisle: Okay, so you do refer to "the bounding box of its content", but that term isnt' linked.
  673. # [20:53] <david_carlisle> TabAtkins: "linking" bit modern for us old timers you know. You should be grateful it's not fixed width plain text ascii:-)
  674. # [20:54] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106071.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  675. # [20:54] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  676. # [20:54] * Joins: llrcombs (~llrcombs@64.130.210.214)
  677. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> Tell that to TimBL twenty years ago. ^_^
  678. # [20:55] <david_carlisle> TabAtkins: Probably the nearest is the pictures in the next section http://www.w3.org/Math/draft-spec/image/mpadded-resize.png but basically mathml assumes every construct _has_ a bounding box but doesn't always specify what that is as there is quite a bit of leeway in how constructs are laid out. But for element() taht should be OK shouldn't it?
  679. # [20:57] <TabAtkins> Not really. :/ It's not really acceptable if browsers define bounding boxes differently for the same markup.
  680. # [20:59] <david_carlisle> TabAtkins: maybe I misunderstood, but don't you just need to access the bounding box of the markup as rendered in the system applying the function. The bounding boxes will differ on different systems anyway for font reasons if nothing else
  681. # [20:59] * Quits: llrcombs (~llrcombs@64.130.210.214) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  682. # [21:00] * Joins: raphc (~rc@ppp-sei21-46-193-160.67.wb.wifirst.net)
  683. # [21:01] <david_carlisle> even something as simple (switching to tex notation) as P_1 will have different bounding boxes on different systems even using the same fonts as different systems will have different ideas about whether to kern the 1 under the P
  684. # [21:01] <TabAtkins> It's fine for them to end up rendering differently, as long as there's a strict definition of what should actually be rendered.
  685. # [21:02] <david_carlisle> TabAtkins: I don't understand.
  686. # [21:03] * Quits: Necrathex (~Necrathex@82-169-245-3.ip.telfort.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  687. # [21:03] <TabAtkins> So, like, for SVG the bounding box is "the smallest axis-aligned rectangle that includes the strokes of all the content within the element".
  688. # [21:04] <TabAtkins> For HTML it's the element's border box, modified by border-iamge.
  689. # [21:09] <david_carlisle> http://www.w3.org/Math/draft-spec/mathml.html#appendixd_dt-blackbox and http://www.w3.org/Math/draft-spec/mathml.html#appendixd_dt-blackbox and #appendixd_dt-boundingbox plus the previously mentioned mpadding description are what you have. That seems as definite as the svg definition you gave. If css does need something more proscriptive here we'd certainly be open tp a clarifying note on...
  690. # [21:09] <david_carlisle> ...mathml/css interaction but hopefully there is enough in the spec
  691. # [21:11] <TabAtkins> The "black box" might work. I'm not sure if it's equivalent to SVG's definition, as the definition of how far a stroke extends is rigorous in SVG (it's part of the geometry used for, e.g. pointer events).
  692. # [21:11] <david_carlisle> Although I guess you're not going to like the paragraph immediately before section 3.2
  693. # [21:12] <TabAtkins> Is the black box what is used for matching :hover, for example?
  694. # [21:14] <david_carlisle> TabAtkins: The only thing MathML says about CSS (so :hover) is that if you have a system supporting mathml and css they may interact. http://www.w3.org/Math/draft-spec/mathml.html#chapter6_world-int-style
  695. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> Yay.
  696. # [21:14] <TabAtkins> ^_^
  697. # [21:14] * Joins: MattWilcox (~MattWilco@elvendil.plus.com)
  698. # [21:18] * Joins: brad_ (~brad@wsip-174-77-7-226.cl.ri.cox.net)
  699. # [21:18] <jgraham> TabAtkins: It's not that surprising that the interaction of CSS and MathML is poorly defined
  700. # [21:18] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Oh, definitely. It's just problematic for me.
  701. # [21:18] * Parts: brad_ (~brad@wsip-174-77-7-226.cl.ri.cox.net)
  702. # [21:18] <jgraham> I mean, the interaction of CSS with itself isn't always that well defined ;)
  703. # [21:19] <jgraham> TabAtkins: The solution is probably to fix MathML :)
  704. # [21:19] * Joins: Brad_ (~brad@wsip-174-77-7-226.cl.ri.cox.net)
  705. # [21:19] * Parts: Brad_ (~brad@wsip-174-77-7-226.cl.ri.cox.net)
  706. # [21:20] <TabAtkins> Yes, here the "right" solution would be for MathML to explicitly say what the bounding box of its elements are, so that other CSS things like :hover and element() could just hook into that.
  707. # [21:20] <jgraham> (I mean it would be surprising if it was the exception to the rule that no spec is good enough)
  708. # [21:21] * Joins: brad_colbow (~brad_colb@wsip-174-77-7-226.cl.ri.cox.net)
  709. # [21:21] * Quits: moo-_- (miohtama@lakka.kapsi.fi) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  710. # [21:21] * Quits: tgecho1 (~tgecho@66.55.201.102) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  711. # [21:22] * Joins: tgecho (~tgecho@66-55-201-102.gwi.net)
  712. # [21:22] <david_carlisle> TabAtkins: I'm not sure that it's possible to say what the bounding box is without first fixing a particular layout model such as css box model. Clearly when MathML is implemented natively in a browser it is rendered using a (possibly extended) version of the css layout rules so you can ask the question but what would an "exact" definition of teh bounding box of P_1 be in a purely mathml context?
  713. # [21:23] <TabAtkins> david_carlisle: I disagree. For example, SVG doesn't use the CSS layout model, but it has a precise definition of the bounding box of any element.
  714. # [21:24] <TabAtkins> You can state the definition in terms of whatever layout model you use, as long it's an answer that will be implementable compatibly across browsers.
  715. # [21:24] <TabAtkins> So that, for example, you dont' end up with one browser doing a tight box around glyphs, but another including the spacing on either side.
  716. # [21:24] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: is there anything I should do to ensure that my comment about Media Queries mostly not defining anything gets addressed by the WG?
  717. # [21:25] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: I heard that there is a bug tracker but the CSS WG Chair will get mad at people who use it
  718. # [21:25] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: >_< >_< >_< I yelled at Ms2ger about saying that.
  719. # [21:25] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: is it actually ok to use it?
  720. # [21:25] <TabAtkins> File bugs freely. We don't want *conversation* on the bug tracker, is all - those should happen on the list.
  721. # [21:26] <othermaciej> since no one responded to my email there seems to be little risk of a conversation
  722. # [21:26] <david_carlisle> TabAtkins: yes but it defines a precise layout as that's it's purpose. <msub> in MathM< means a subscript and if you define teh bounding box of P_1 in terms of teh extent of black pixels then TeX is doomed as it doesn't know which pixels are black. If you define it in terms of font metrics it's possible but may be not what you want either.
  723. # [21:27] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Yeah, it's fine. If discussion is necessary there's the email thread already started, or someone can start a new one. But go ahead and file a bug.
  724. # [21:27] <TabAtkins> david_carlisle: Out of curiosity, why doesn't TeX know that?
  725. # [21:28] <jgraham> david_carlisle: It seems clear that, at the very least, MathML-on-the-web should have a precisely defined layout model
  726. # [21:28] <jgraham> I doubt anyone cares very much about precise layout compatibility with non-web systems
  727. # [21:28] * Joins: moo-_- (miohtama@lakka.kapsi.fi)
  728. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> But yes, what jgraham says. The limitations of things that aren't browsers shouldn't hold back defining useful things for browsers.
  729. # [21:28] <david_carlisle> TabAtkins: TeX knows nothing about glyph shapes, each character is just 4 integers extracted from the font metrics (height depth width and italic correction)
  730. # [21:29] <david_carlisle> jgraham: as I said above if we restrict to mathml-in-acss-based-rendering model there is definitely more that could be said, and if it neess saying we could drum up a WG not eto say it
  731. # [21:30] <jgraham> Please don't make a Note :)
  732. # [21:30] <TabAtkins> david_carlisle: The rendering engine for TeX certainly knows about black pixels, though. But it's irrelevant anyway, as TeX has no :hover or element() or similar.
  733. # [21:30] * Joins: llrcombs (~llrcombs@64.130.210.214)
  734. # [21:30] <jgraham> The most pointless of all publication types
  735. # [21:30] <TabAtkins> david_carlisle: Yes, please don't make a Note. It needs to be normative, and ideally contained within the main spec.
  736. # [21:31] <david_carlisle> TabAtkins: there isn't _a_ rendering engine for TeX. And even if yiou restrict to a particular one the point is that you can't access it from within TeX.
  737. # [21:31] <TabAtkins> david_carlisle: Exactly, so it doesn't matter for TeX what the definition is. ^_^
  738. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> (I wasn't implying a single rendering engine for TeX. It's of course rendered by many engines, just as web content is.)
  739. # [21:32] * Joins: gwicke (~gabriel@212.255.28.33)
  740. # [21:33] <david_carlisle> TabAtkins: well I think formally we are not chartered to do another rec-track thingy at present, but that's just bureaucracy. If the words get written it could presumably be made a normative document by some combination of math/css/htmlWG
  741. # [21:33] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-104-107.dynamic.t-2.net) (Quit: sedovsek)
  742. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> You need a charter for errata?
  743. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> (This qualifies as MathML3 errata, I would think.)
  744. # [21:34] <david_carlisle> TabAtkins: No but errata need an error and this is feature creep:-)
  745. # [21:34] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@FL1-122-130-129-42.tky.mesh.ad.jp)
  746. # [21:35] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-42-69.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  747. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> I disagree. The draft currently defines that MathML can interact with CSS, but it does so incompletely.
  748. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> If you can't even reasonably respond to :hover, that's an error. ^_^
  749. # [21:37] <david_carlisle> TabAtkins: If a document specifies something and does it wrong, that's an error. If a document explictly says that in order to support multiple rendering systems some aspects of rendering are left unspecified, then it is not an _error_ that they are unspecified. Nor is it surprising that users of one particular system decide to specify it for their case.
  750. # [21:37] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-42-69.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  751. # [21:40] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-122-130-129-42.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  752. # [21:40] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-104-107.dynamic.t-2.net)
  753. # [21:43] * Joins: adamadeane (~adamadean@60-234-158-49.bitstream.orcon.net.nz)
  754. # [21:47] <jgraham> It doesn't really matter what the Process is as long as the right text ends up in a document that implementors can use
  755. # [21:47] <david_carlisle> jgraham: yep
  756. # [21:47] <jgraham> Prefereably in a Rec. or something with similar properties
  757. # [21:49] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  758. # [21:49] <david_carlisle> TabAtkins: Out of interest what's the bounding box of <span>hello</span> ? that is can you point me to an exact wording somewhere in html spec (or any spec) that I could see what you want me to say for the bounding box of <mtext>hello</mtext> (which should be the same)
  759. # [21:52] * Quits: snowfox (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: snowfox)
  760. # [21:54] <tantek> david_carlisle - that would be inline layout as defined in CSS2.1
  761. # [21:54] <tantek> (re: the span)
  762. # [21:54] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@17.245.19.81)
  763. # [21:54] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@17.245.19.81) (Remote host closed the connection)
  764. # [21:55] <tantek> and yes, one possible answer is for MathML to simply phrase everything in terms of defined CSS layout terms
  765. # [21:55] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:149:4:304:f111:b710:cb7d:1a1)
  766. # [21:58] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:149:4:304:f111:b710:cb7d:1a1) (Client Quit)
  767. # [21:59] <david_carlisle> tantek: I'm looking at that(and Ive read it before:-) but where for example do I find if the width of the box is based on rendered pixels or on the font metrics so including the left sidebearing of h and right of o for example? (and similarly for height) as that seemed to be level of detail TabAtkins was asking for MathML
  768. # [22:00] <tantek> david_carlisle I believe that is defined where stated (CSS 2.1 inline layout) and used by various things such as painting the background, drawing borders etc.
  769. # [22:00] <tantek> (when such spans have backgrounds and borders)
  770. # [22:00] <tantek> f
  771. # [22:00] <tantek> r
  772. # [22:00] <tantek> om
  773. # [22:00] <tantek> from what I recall, that was quite a bit of work in the last few years of CSS 2.1
  774. # [22:00] * Quits: adamadeane (~adamadean@60-234-158-49.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) (Quit: adamadeane)
  775. # [22:00] <tantek> figuring out inline layout details to get interop background/border rendering
  776. # [22:03] <david_carlisle> "inline layout" doesn't occur in the toc http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/cover.html#minitoc I could read the whole spec, or do you mean somewhere else? (clear;y there is a lot of detail about inline and layout but I don't see that but I'm not sure if I'm looking at the right spec:-)
  777. # [22:04] <david_carlisle> Ah found it.. CSS 2.1 says: The 'height' property does not apply. The height of the content area should be based on the font, but this specification does not specify how.
  778. # [22:04] * Joins: tgecho1 (~tgecho@66-55-201-102.gwi.net)
  779. # [22:04] <david_carlisle> hmmmmmm
  780. # [22:04] * Joins: cgcardona (~cgcardona@unaffiliated/cgcardona)
  781. # [22:06] <david_carlisle> and goes on to say If more than one font is used (this could happen when glyphs are found in different fonts), the height of the content area is not defined by this specification.
  782. # [22:06] * Quits: tgecho (~tgecho@66-55-201-102.gwi.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  783. # [22:07] <david_carlisle> got to go, back later
  784. # [22:12] * Quits: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  785. # [22:17] * Joins: cpearce (~cpearce@ip-118-90-120-55.xdsl.xnet.co.nz)
  786. # [22:18] * Joins: gavinc (~gavin@barad-dur.carothers.name)
  787. # [22:18] * Quits: espadrine (~thaddee_t@nat/mozilla/x-tqrnwjswisjrzmhu) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  788. # [22:24] * Quits: esc_ (~esc_ape@178.115.248.103.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  789. # [22:32] * JohnAlbin is now known as JohnAlbin_zzzzzz
  790. # [22:35] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.108.107.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  791. # [22:41] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@c-dedbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: tomasf)
  792. # [22:41] * Quits: skylamer` (cgskylamer@78.90.213.55) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  793. # [22:41] * Joins: skylamer` (cgskylamer@78.90.213.55)
  794. # [22:48] * Joins: dgathright (~dgathrigh@64.1.211.1.ptr.us.xo.net)
  795. # [22:48] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  796. # [22:48] * Joins: esc_ (~esc_ape@77.116.246.71.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  797. # [22:48] * ap_ is now known as ap
  798. # [22:51] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.9.217)
  799. # [22:57] * Quits: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  800. # [23:02] * Quits: dgathright (~dgathrigh@64.1.211.1.ptr.us.xo.net) (Quit: dgathright)
  801. # [23:05] * Joins: dgathright (~dgathrigh@64.1.211.1.ptr.us.xo.net)
  802. # [23:06] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.9.217) (Quit: othermaciej)
  803. # [23:06] <dglazkov> MikeSmith: it's dead again.
  804. # [23:08] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.9.217)
  805. # [23:09] * Parts: teegee543 (~teegee543@orca.berrypi.com)
  806. # [23:12] * Quits: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.)
  807. # [23:12] <jgraham> {insert Monty Python reference here}
  808. # [23:12] <Ms2ger> I'm not dead yet
  809. # [23:13] <dglazkov> http://downforme.org/is-dvcs.w3.org-down-today-for-everyone
  810. # [23:14] <jgraham> Ms2ger: YOu are an AI not a parrot
  811. # [23:14] <jgraham> Although it seems you are an AI that thinks it is a parrot
  812. # [23:14] <Ms2ger> Excuse me.
  813. # [23:14] <Ms2ger> I would like a fish license.
  814. # [23:16] * Joins: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
  815. # [23:19] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@60.234.54.74)
  816. # [23:19] * Quits: Kolombiken (~Adium@c80-216-10-244.bredband.comhem.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
  817. # [23:20] * Joins: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-42-55-176.dynamic.hinet.net)
  818. # [23:22] * Quits: brad_colbow (~brad_colb@wsip-174-77-7-226.cl.ri.cox.net) (Quit: brad_colbow)
  819. # [23:22] * Quits: JohnAlbin_zzzzzz (~JohnAlbin@114-36-34-110.dynamic.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  820. # [23:27] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
  821. # [23:30] * Quits: brent_ (aa8c6801@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.140.104.1) (Quit: Page closed)
  822. # [23:31] * Joins: anatolbroder (~bro@frnk-4d01cebf.pool.mediaWays.net)
  823. # [23:32] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  824. # [23:35] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@FL1-122-130-129-42.tky.mesh.ad.jp)
  825. # [23:36] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  826. # [23:36] * Joins: grantbdev (~grantbdev@ip174-70-100-162.no.no.cox.net)
  827. # [23:39] * Quits: MattWilcox (~MattWilco@elvendil.plus.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  828. # [23:39] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@FL1-122-130-129-42.tky.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  829. # [23:40] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@mau49-1-82-245-46-173.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: tzing)
  830. # [23:44] * Quits: drollwit (~drollwit@c-67-183-156-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  831. # [23:46] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.0.112) (Quit: nn)
  832. # [23:49] * Quits: skylamer` (cgskylamer@78.90.213.55) (Remote host closed the connection)
  833. # [23:49] * Quits: anatolbroder (~bro@frnk-4d01cebf.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  834. # [23:51] * Joins: mkanat (mkanat@nat/google/x-jfcpxxkqrbufjmri)
  835. # [23:59] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.9.217) (Quit: othermaciej)
  836. # [23:59] * Quits: grantbdev (~grantbdev@ip174-70-100-162.no.no.cox.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  837. # Session Close: Tue May 22 00:00:00 2012

The end :)