/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-05-23 / end

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# Session Start: Wed May 23 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:46] <gsnedders> Ah, benchmarks. Aren't you wonderful? "ms (slower is better)"
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# [01:38] <tantek> and in this week's episode of needlessly reinvented standards, we bring you rel="logo" http://relogo.org/ - subhead: what was wrong with rel="icon" ?
# [01:39] <tantek> or is this perhaps the result of not understanding that you can have multiple rel="icon" links with different mime/content types including SVG?
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# [02:34] <tantek> yikes - rel-logo was apparently added to the rel-registry 2011-11-24. snuck-in on last year's US Thanksgiving holiday.
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# [02:46] <tantek> I've written up the reasons why rel=logo is unnecessary and moved it to the "rejected" table in existing-rel-values: http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#rejected
# [02:46] <tantek> interesting that the notion of linking to a logo has been *twice* reinvented (pavatar, logo)
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# [03:48] <Druide_> lol
# [03:48] <Druide_> [02:37] <josiah> What is the best way to generate a secret for a SF2 application?
# [03:48] <Druide_> [02:39] <wiistriker> drop face on keyboard
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# [05:40] <MikeSmith> roc: you around? I wanted to ask you about something related to the HTML WG DRM video stuff
# [05:40] <roc> yes
# [05:44] <MikeSmith> roc: the chairs are planning to have a weekly telcon to discuss the DRM proposal and the other for enabling adaptive-streaming use cases
# [05:44] <MikeSmith> what I wanted to know is, would you be interested in calling in
# [05:45] <roc> my immediate reaction is "urk"
# [05:45] <MikeSmith> if so, there's a survey about the call time which I hope can respond to
# [05:46] <roc> I don't feel like I have anything to contribute beyond the policy issues we've already discussed on the list
# [05:46] <MikeSmith> because otherwise, the call time is likely going to be pretty bad for NZ and Australia too
# [05:46] <MikeSmith> heh
# [05:46] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [05:46] <MikeSmith> well, the survey is here: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/html-media/
# [05:46] <MikeSmith> in the current results, Tuesday, 1500 UTC is the time that's leading
# [05:46] <MikeSmith> OK
# [05:47] <roc> it's basically impossible to schedule a telecon that works for both Europe and me
# [05:47] <roc> so if I don't absolutely need to be on it, better that I'm not
# [05:48] <MikeSmith> I see
# [05:49] <MikeSmith> 2100 UTC would work if Europe participants were willing to call in at 11pm
# [05:49] <roc> (it is possible, but it's never fun)
# [05:49] <MikeSmith> the thing is, what always ends up happening if we do have a telcon is that the New Zealand and Australia and Asia people always get the short end of the stick as far as call times
# [05:49] <roc> yep
# [05:49] <MikeSmith> yeah, I hear you
# [05:50] <roc> small price to pay for the privilege of living here, I say :-)
# [05:50] <MikeSmith> indeed
# [05:50] <MikeSmith> I'd love to visit there some time
# [05:51] <roc> if people wonder whether some specific proposal would meet with my approval, of course I can answer that via email or even dial in to a particular meeting if necessary
# [05:52] <MikeSmith> OK
# [05:54] <MikeSmith> I'll make an effort personally to give you a heads-up if there's anything on the calls that seems worth alerting you about
# [05:55] <MikeSmith> also, I guess the call time is likely to end up amenable to hsivonen being able to call in -- though I'm not sure he'll want to
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# [05:56] <MikeSmith> I know I don't want to..
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# [05:58] <roc> heh
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# [08:30] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17151 isn't this something for the encoding standard?
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# [08:39] <othermaciej> zcorpan: maybe - which spec defines other types of UTF-16 encoding errors, such as unpaired surrogates, nulls, etc?
# [08:39] <othermaciej> oh, this is the case of unpaired surrogate
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# [08:46] <zcorpan> seems the encoding standard already does "emit a decoder error" for lone surrogates, which for HTML means U+FFFD
# [08:46] <zcorpan> (and for XML means fatal error)
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# [09:02] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: should css3-syntax U+FFFD surrogates in escapes?
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# [09:34] <annevk> https://twitter.com/awbjs/status/204962858113564672 didn't [tm] do that
# [09:34] <annevk> ?
# [09:34] <annevk> also, cool how twitter now lets you copy permanent URLs and they don't include the hash bang nonsense
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# [09:36] <zcorpan> nice
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# [09:37] <annevk> so the differences is that it's a normative copy http://ecma-international.org/ecma-262/5.1/
# [09:38] <smaug____> rafaelw_: since I don't know how to update chromium on linux, can't test this right now, but does webkit handle mutationobserver correctly when using documentfragments?
# [09:38] <annevk> but apparently has less information on bug reports and such when compared to http://es5.github.com/ which seems logical
# [09:38] <annevk> oh "The PDF version is the definitive specification."
# [09:38] <annevk> meh
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# [09:40] <zcorpan> The D in PDF stands for Definitive
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# [09:42] <smaug____> interesting, I got chromium into a state where it doesn't load anything
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# [09:43] <annevk> http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/23559522267/http-w3cmemes-tumblr-com how is this foul bachelor frog?
# [09:44] <othermaciej> doesn't make sense to me either
# [09:44] <othermaciej> maybe Lazy College Senior but even that does quite fit
# [09:44] <othermaciej> maybe even a Good Guy Greg
# [09:44] <annevk> yeah, GGG would be it I think
# [09:45] <annevk> who doesn't want a more readable spec
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# [09:56] <othermaciej> I guess there is implied laziness to not trying harder to understand it
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# [09:56] <othermaciej> depends on if the rewrite is easier to understand for everyone, or only the author
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# [09:58] <annevk> true
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# [10:10] <annevk> via rniwa http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.219431.12
# [10:10] <annevk> pretty excellent
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# [10:10] <rniwa> annevk: yeah. it's via othermaciej
# [10:10] <annevk> :)
# [10:11] <othermaciej> that pieces is pretty well known, I can't take much credit for knowing about it
# [10:12] <othermaciej> but it is funny
# [10:12] <othermaciej> and explains why DOM2/3 sucks as bad as it does
# [10:12] <rniwa> annevk: and then othermaciej posted http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcode.google.com%2Fp%2Faxis-ssl%2Fsource%2Fbrowse%2Ftrunk%2Fsrc%2Forg%2Fapache%2Faxis%2Fcomponents%2Fnet%2FSocketFactoryFactory.java&h=VAQGMbw_NAQEG5nvKnT2Shq9fjmmeHTHVR7k9nQHoV4gjRA&enc=AZP-XNPofm9WLTtopsES2fGSbWkXS_7jVMv6HKWGt2J3fiOJmWxlBjPCaK_-IvXSrcOVvK1DdqgYPA3peVIltXdEVoL2ATD4W8hLzQfhe1E5og
# [10:12] <rniwa> annevk: ugh... i mean http://code.google.com/p/axis-ssl/source/browse/trunk/src/org/apache/axis/components/net/SocketFactoryFactory.java
# [10:12] <annevk> ah thanks
# [10:12] <othermaciej> if you do a Google search for Java FactoryFactory you will find lots of real cases of factory factory classes
# [10:13] <annevk> I'm afraid of following facebook.com URLs in case they never heard about GET not having side effects
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# [10:13] <annevk> I'm glad we don't have factories
# [10:14] <heycam> the "though you may also have to deploy a few configuration files to make it all work" is the funniest part
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# [10:14] <annevk> the follow up is great too
# [10:14] <annevk> "Luckily, 70% of the workers in the Tool-Oriented Metafactory Union are certified against this version of the spec."
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# [10:15] <heycam> that is why I write all my web apps in bash
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# [10:53] <annevk> kind of sad even new drafts such as http://people.mozilla.org/~bbirtles/web-animations/web-animations.html format everything per the old DOM standards...
# [10:54] <annevk> and thereby define things in a crappy way, e.g. http://people.mozilla.org/~bbirtles/web-animations/web-animations.html#widl-TimedTemplate-animate-TimedItem-Element-target-float-startTime
# [10:55] <annevk> oh, it doesn't even use RFC 2119
# [10:55] <annevk> *sigh*
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# [10:58] <othermaciej> hmmm
# [10:58] <othermaciej> it has "must" in notes
# [10:58] <othermaciej> "must" in at least one conformance requirement
# [10:58] <othermaciej> and then a colored small-caps MUST in another place
# [10:58] <jgraham> Tell this to the people writing the spec, perhaps :)
# [10:58] <othermaciej> so it's actually much worse than not using RFC2119
# [10:59] <othermaciej> so far, the proposed API seems kinda bad too, not just the spec
# [10:59] <othermaciej> so not yet worth investing energy in
# [10:59] <zcorpan> do we have a wiki with guidelines about how to write conformance requirements correctly and how to format specs in a good way?
# [11:00] <zcorpan> s//page/
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# [11:00] <zcorpan> it seems this comes up time and time again with "new" editors
# [11:00] <zcorpan> having new editors is awesome; having specs that suck is not :-)
# [11:01] <othermaciej> this spec has at least a couple of non-new editors
# [11:01] <othermaciej> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/How_to_write_a_spec
# [11:02] <jgraham> We have http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1140242962&count=1 ofc
# [11:03] <othermaciej> oh, that one is also good, too bad it's not in that whatwg wiki page
# [11:05] <annevk> I always wonder why people haven't read existing specs...
# [11:05] <annevk> e.g. if you have read HTML, XMLHttpRequest, DOM, ... you should know the problems
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# [11:06] <annevk> but I guess my expectations don't meet reality, so we should indeed have some kind of wiki or document explaining that
# [11:06] <annevk> and tell everyone "you're awesome, but take a look at <URL>"
# [11:07] * zcorpan expanded a bit on rfc2119 usage
# [11:08] <smaug____> annevk: "haven't read existing specs"? well, depends on which specs
# [11:08] <smaug____> there are tons of different specs
# [11:08] <smaug____> HTML, XHR, DOM use similar style
# [11:08] <smaug____> and have their problems
# [11:08] <annevk> smaug____: everyone writing APIs should be at least familiar with DOM/HTML/IDL imo
# [11:09] <smaug____> DOM/IDL yes,
# [11:09] <smaug____> and some HTML
# [11:09] <smaug____> reading and understanding full HTML...
# [11:09] <smaug____> no one does that :)
# [11:09] <othermaciej> annevk: are you expecting people to just be generally familiar with those technologies, or to understand in depth how they are specced, why they are specced that way, what problems you could run into building on their specs, etc?
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# [11:10] <annevk> othermaciej: I expect them to see that the way they define methods is radically different (and has holes); I expect them to look for patterns in existing methods with respect to exception handling, event dispatching, etc.
# [11:10] <annevk> othermaciej: my expectations however seem unrealistic
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# [11:11] <annevk> e.g. quite some specs that clearly require use of the event loop don't use it
# [11:11] <annevk> (some started using it after it being pointed out)
# [11:12] <zcorpan> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/How_to_write_a_spec doesn't mention the event loop
# [11:12] <othermaciej> many people writing web platform specs are not expects on other web platform specs or necessarily even the other relevant technologies at all
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# [11:19] <roc> or in some cases, not even familiar with what a spec is
# [11:20] <zcorpan> maybe the respec tool should have a "read this before use" sticker
# [11:22] <roc> annevk: email your gripes to Brian, I'm sure he'll take them on board
# [11:22] <annevk> zcorpan: I guess we should expand that wiki page with "Patterns" of some kind; examples of how to do various things
# [11:23] <annevk> zcorpan: including dispatching events asynchronously
# [11:23] <zcorpan> annevk: sounds like a good idea
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# [11:24] <zcorpan> annevk: also explicitly say that the old DOM specs is a bad pattern and why it is
# [11:25] <zcorpan> annevk: it could point to real-world examples in actual specs and discuss what it does
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# [11:52] <roc> hmm, why is the From-Origin spec stalled?
# [11:52] <annevk> roc: I updated it yesterday to include a reason
# [11:53] <annevk> roc: it doesn't mean much though, if people want to implement it, I'll keep updating it and we'll go back to REC-track
# [11:54] <roc> is the reason here? http://www.w3.org/TR/from-origin/ I can't see it
# [11:54] <annevk> roc: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/from-origin/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
# [11:54] <annevk> roc: TR/ is never up-to-date
# [11:55] <roc> sorry, I couldn't find the real version :-)
# [11:55] <roc> I wonder if I can teach google to simply not show me TRs
# [11:55] <annevk> TR/ will be updated next week with http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/from-origin/raw-file/tip/TR.html fwiw
# [11:56] <annevk> I created that yesterday too per request from Art
# [11:58] <othermaciej> are canvas gradients new?
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# [11:59] <othermaciej> I have a hard time remembering which are the new bits
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# [11:59] <annevk> they're not new
# [11:59] <annevk> see http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-March/035239.html for what's new
# [12:01] <othermaciej> thanks!
# [12:02] <jgraham> So, when's Hixie back? (I assume he is away)
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# [12:05] <othermaciej> he's on vacation, I forgot when back
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# [12:06] <jgraham> It is curiosuly unsettling to be trapping ina buggy part of the spec without the Dear Leader around for guidance
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# [12:07] <zcorpan> jgraham: about <script src>, does it await a stable state before fetching src (when setting src), in case the script also sets crossorigin? (like <img>)
# [12:08] <zcorpan> the spec doesn't have crossorigin on script yet, it seems
# [12:08] <annevk> jgraham: would be more fun if Hixie took a three-month break :)
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# [12:09] <zcorpan> OMG WE NEED A NEW EDITOR THAT DOESN'T DO VACATIONS
# [12:09] <annevk> jgraham: I guess we should count our blessings, it used to be so much worse: http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1172653243&count=1
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# [12:10] <jgraham> zcorpan: We should jsut be glad he relocated to the US where no one does vacations (almost :p)
# [12:11] <annevk> so my non-n network seems to perform better outside
# [12:11] <jgraham> annevk: I guess with a three month break you would quickly adjust your expectations
# [12:11] <jgraham> s/you/one/ ^c.
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# [12:25] <annevk> in wiki markup, what's the best way to markup some kind of example?
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# [12:29] <gsnedders> annevk: Woah, that was five years ago.
# [12:29] <othermaciej> is Selectors API level 2 still being worked on?
# [12:29] <othermaciej> last draft looks old
# [12:29] <zcorpan> annevk: <blockquote>? :-)
# [12:31] <zcorpan> or <div class="..."> maybe; are there any classes with default styling?
# [12:32] <annevk> how does http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/How_to_write_a_spec#Patterns look?
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# [12:32] <annevk> gsnedders: you're getting old man
# [12:33] <annevk> the Patterns I wrote down now is a start btw, I plan on adding the exception stuff and such
# [12:33] <zcorpan> <</var>
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# [12:34] <annevk> thanks, though not quite the feedback I was looking for
# [12:34] <zcorpan> heh :-) looks good
# [12:35] <zcorpan> maybe bake in id="" pattern recommendation
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# [12:38] <smaug____> does anyone know where to download chromium for linux
# [12:38] <smaug____> the latest snapshot
# [12:38] <smaug____> (whatever it is called)
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# [12:39] <annevk> smaug____: http://www.chromium.org/getting-involved/dev-channel#TOC-Linux
# [12:40] * smaug____ was hoping .tar.* packages
# [12:40] <smaug____> or .zip
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# [12:44] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: I just pushed the rest of the MathML3 updates to http://validator.w3.org/nu/
# [12:45] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: ohh thanks will try
# [12:46] <MikeSmith> including that openmath fix
# [12:46] <MikeSmith> but really I would rather we just rip out all of the openmath stuff altogether
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# [12:46] <david_carlisle> yo! one valid mathml spec:-) (could you chnage the identification string on the schema Using the schema for HTML5 + SVG 1.1 + MathML 2.0 + to say 3.0
# [12:46] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
# [12:46] <MikeSmith> will change that now
# [12:47] <annevk> is the validator not supporting post-HTML5 things?
# [12:47] <MikeSmith> hmm, I wonder of hsivonen wants it specified or not
# [12:47] <annevk> it seems better to have "valid HTML/SVG/MathML" or just "this content is valid"
# [12:47] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [12:47] <MikeSmith> that's what I meant
# [12:48] <MikeSmith> I think hsivonen might now prefer that we don't specify the versions at all
# [12:48] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: Really I would rather there were not any openmath special cases in the schema. I'd prefer that the attribute value be open as it says in the spec, but if you/heri think that's too risky and just want to allow mathml/svg/html in teh annotations I'll just grumble and not inline the openmath bits in that version of the spec
# [12:48] <MikeSmith> but in the case of SVG, we have it that way to make sure the people realize we're not supporting SVG 1.2
# [12:49] <smaug____> hmm, am I confident enough that MutationObserver is a good API and that the implementation is good enough for un-prefixing...
# [12:49] <david_carlisle> apply usual typo correction, especially to Henri's name
# [12:49] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: yeah, I think it's better not to make it open and I think Henri still thinks so as well. We don't leave anything open anywhere else like that.
# [12:50] <annevk> smaug____: no, but if you don't start unprefixing we'll never get rid of the much worse thing
# [12:50] <smaug____> true
# [12:51] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: I think it;'s a mistake but I'm not going to argue just grumble:-) but as I said either way it shouldn't special case openmath
# [12:52] <MikeSmith> OK
# [12:52] <david_carlisle> because people who want to use ChemML (say) should be able to look what I did for OpenMath and I don't want them to find that what you have to do is mail you and Henri and ask to be whitelisted
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# [12:56] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: ah yeah
# [12:56] <MikeSmith> so I will yank the openmath stuff
# [12:58] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: Thanks for all the work on this, appreciated.
# [12:58] <MikeSmith> no problem
# [12:58] <MikeSmith> sorry for taking so long
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# [13:51] <annevk> rename proposal "Howto_spec"
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# [13:51] <annevk> reasoning: easier to remember and search for
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# [13:59] <zcorpan> what does a Test Facilitator do?
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# [14:00] <annevk> I think the idea is that similar to an editor, it's the person responsible for making sure the test suite is adequate
# [14:00] <annevk> it's kind of lame name though
# [14:00] <annevk> but then so is "editor"
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# [14:01] <zcorpan> Test Suite Adequate Making Surer
# [14:01] <zcorpan> +Is
# [14:02] <gsnedders> And dealing with test case approval etc.
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# [14:10] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Howto_spec#Patterns added attributes
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# [14:18] <jgraham> The way that gecko implements alert is funny
# [14:19] <jgraham> I particularly like the way you can make the background get darker and darker as you layer alerts one on top of the other
# [14:19] <annevk> is "Legacy DOM" a good name for the wiki page describing the problems with respec's default output?
# [14:19] <annevk> or should it be Legacy DOM-style which is kind of annoying to remember and has a dash
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# [14:22] <annevk> mah I'll just make it a separate heading at the end of "howto spec"
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# [14:31] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Howto_spec#Legacy_DOM-style
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# [14:53] <matjas> “ES5 claims the global scope "this" is the same as the global object, which is not always true in HTML5.” — http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_ECMAScript#Global_scope
# [14:53] <matjas> can haz more info on this? ^
# [14:54] <annevk> see Window versus WindowProxy
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# [14:59] <zcorpan> annevk: awesome
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# [15:01] * matjas tries to understand
# [15:01] <matjas> hmm, so when is global this != window?
# [15:02] <annevk> matjas: prolly when navigating
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# [15:03] <matjas> heh
# [15:03] <annevk> ah yeah, the spec says so to
# [15:03] <annevk> o
# [15:04] <annevk> yeah so each Document has a Window
# [15:04] <annevk> but each browsing context (e.g. <iframe>) has a WindowProxy
# [15:05] <jgraham> zcorpan: So, do you want to be Web Workers test facilitator?
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# [15:06] <zcorpan> jgraham: i guess i could
# [15:07] <jgraham> Excellent
# [15:07] <jgraham> I think that makes more sense than me doing it :)
# [15:07] <zcorpan> i just need to find that email again so i can reply to it
# [15:08] <annevk> if you do work you can break the rules
# [15:09] <annevk> I mean, create a new thread :)
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# [15:09] <zcorpan> ""ext James Graham" <jgraham@opera.com>"?
# [15:10] <jgraham> ??
# [15:10] <annevk> some email software inserts "ext"
# [15:10] <annevk> prolly an enterprise feature
# [15:10] <annevk> sorry, "feature"
# [15:10] <zcorpan> i'm as confused as you are. the email i'm replying to has "James Graham" in the To field, but when i was going to reply to it, it became that
# [15:11] <jgraham> Maybe M2 became an enterprise mail client :)
# [15:11] <annevk> or your stored contacts have been garbled by someone else
# [15:12] <zcorpan> oh wait, the email i'm replying to actually had To: "ext James Graham" <jgraham@opera.com>
# [15:12] <annevk> from Art?
# [15:12] <zcorpan> it's just opera's UI uses the contact name rather than what the email header said
# [15:12] <zcorpan> yeah
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# [15:19] <Ms2ger> Yeah, Art's got lots of "ext"s
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# [15:21] <zcorpan> should <label><a href=x> be allowed? it seems to be allowed in the spec currently
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# [16:01] <matjas> annevk: ok, so it’s still safe to rely on global `this === window`, as it will always be the case; be it through a Window or a WindowProxy
# [16:02] <matjas> phew
# [16:03] <zcorpan> this === windows is always true, but window and this don't always refer to the ES global object (instead they both refer to the WindowProxy)
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# [16:05] <gsnedders> zcorpan: When do they refer to different things?
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# [16:06] <annevk> gsnedders: navigation
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# [16:07] <gsnedders> But when do you have a global existing after a navigation?
# [16:07] <annevk> not an ES global, but you can still have a reference to a WindowProxy object
# [16:07] <annevk> it just proxies to a different ES global
# [16:08] <zcorpan> say you have an iframe, the parent saves a reference to its window, then it navigates
# [16:08] <smaug____> hmm, is this===window when doing document.open()
# [16:08] * smaug____ tests
# [16:09] <zcorpan> smaug____: document.open() should reuse the Window per spec, IIRC
# [16:10] <Ms2ger> Parsing scientific notation in CSS is still undefined?
# [16:10] <smaug____> zcorpan: really
# [16:10] <smaug____> hmm
# [16:10] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: see css3-syntax
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# [16:10] <Ms2ger> I don't want to
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# [16:12] <smaug____> window===this is true even in the case I was thinking
# [16:12] <smaug____> ofc
# [16:12] <smaug____> because of outer window
# [16:12] <smaug____> silly me
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# [16:35] <hsivonen> webben: You can follow along the Maven stuff in http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=921 . I landed the OSGi stuff from http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=919 .
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# [17:36] <webben> hsivonen: ta
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# [17:48] <jgraham> Oh look! A new mailing list!
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# [17:50] <Ms2ger> Needs ski instructor meme
# [17:51] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
# [17:52] <Ms2ger> Good, you
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# [17:57] <jgraham> Ms2ger: +God + again?
# [17:57] <Ms2ger> No comment
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# [18:18] <Ms2ger> dglazkov, sure, as long as we decide in favour of Anolis :)
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# [18:32] <jgraham> I propose that we settle it by a fight to the death. rberjon vs gsnedders.
# [18:32] <jgraham> Although rberjon would win
# [18:32] <jgraham> So Ms2ger would be unhappy
# [18:33] <Ms2ger> OTOH, no more gsnedders...
# [18:33] <Ms2ger> That would be doubleplusungood
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# [18:37] * gsnedders wonders what he's done around #whatwg for, well, years
# [18:38] <Ms2ger> py3!
# [18:38] <Workshiva> Talk
# [18:38] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Oh yeah.
# [18:38] <Ms2ger> And accept one of fantasai's patches after like three years :)
# [18:39] <jgraham> dglazkov: Anyway afaict the tradeoff between respec and anolis is that people prefer writing specs using respec, presumably due to the lack of a compile step, but it encourages a worse style of spec writing and has a worse user experience (due to scripts running when the document loads)
# [18:40] <gsnedders> jgraham: You could always set up respec to build for each commit
# [18:40] <gsnedders> Instead of only doing it for TR
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# [18:41] <jgraham> gsnedders: Then it would have a compile step
# [18:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: But eliminating that for actual work before you commit is probably the big gain anyway.
# [18:41] <gsnedders> You can automate it through commit hooks to get all the gain for no effort.
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# [18:43] <jgraham> gsnedders: For what?
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# [19:27] <TabAtkins> Man, zcorpan always disappears just as I come in for the day. It's hard to remember to continue a discussion in the evening with him. :/
# [19:28] <Ms2ger> Get up earlier :)
# [19:28] <TabAtkins> Getting to work at 8am should be early enough for anybody.
# [19:29] <Ms2ger> Relocate
# [19:29] <TabAtkins> Already did. It made the problem worse.
# [19:29] <Ms2ger> Relocate in the right direction
# [19:29] <TabAtkins> Man, nothing makes you happy.
# [19:29] <Ms2ger> No
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# [19:33] <jwalden> TabAtkins: you must be new here :-)
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# [19:38] <nights> TabAtkins: lots of your demos doesnt work.
# [19:38] <nights> and if they do work they only work in Chrome...
# [19:39] <nights> the live image processing is cool though
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# [19:44] <TabAtkins> nights: It's very possible that they might require Chrome, because I was lazy and authored them solely for my own use in a presentation, where I know I'll be using Chrome.
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# [19:51] <nights> I see
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# [19:51] <nights> :)
# [19:51] <TabAtkins> All of the demos on xanthir.com/demos work, though - I jsut tried thema ll.
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# [19:57] <nights> ok cool! :)
# [19:58] <nights> its nasty when things doesnt work in a presentation
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# [20:00] <Ms2ger> I find it fascinating that other glenn claims to have a hybrid spec tool for cssom, yet hasn't actually ever edited cssom
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# [20:05] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: you summoned?
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# [20:11] <tantek> Ms2ger, perhaps you can ask him in irc://irc.w3.org:6665/css - looks like he's even there now.
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# [20:13] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Oh, I was just going to say that your suggestion sounds like a good idea.
# [20:14] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Yes he has. What makes you think otherwise?
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# [20:14] <Ms2ger> Apart from putting his name on it
# [20:15] <nights> TabAtkins: you work at google?
# [20:15] <TabAtkins> I dont' know whether he's commited the relevant changes yet, but I know for a fact that he and Shane are working on it.
# [20:15] <TabAtkins> nights: Yeah.
# [20:15] <nights> TabAtkins: Cool...i actually rejected an offer from them once :)
# [20:15] <TabAtkins> Bad move. ^_^
# [20:15] <Ms2ger> Good move
# [20:16] <nights> now im cofounder of a company making USD -10000 every month
# [20:16] <Ms2ger> Come join us at The Rebellion
# [20:16] <nights> hehe
# [20:16] <Ms2ger> Er, Mozilla
# [20:16] <TabAtkins> I can't make much revenue directly from doing what I love, which is working on standards.
# [20:17] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/ <-- this is cssom. He's never actually edited it
# [20:17] <nights> TabAtkins: i wrote minus 10000 usd
# [20:17] <nights> so im sure you make more than me ;)
# [20:17] <TabAtkins> Oh, hahahaha
# [20:17] <TabAtkins> I read that as a ~
# [20:17] <nights> :)
# [20:18] <nights> that time
# [20:18] <nights> i started working for an another american company
# [20:18] <nights> i regret that move very much :)
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# [20:20] <nights> google was a few floors down
# [20:20] <nights> their office here in tokyo is very cool
# [20:21] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: what suggestion?
# [20:22] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: To make the parser replace escapes of surrogates with U+fffd
# [20:22] <TabAtkins> nights: Agreed! I've been to the tokyo office before.
# [20:22] <zcorpan> ah
# [20:23] <nights> TabAtkins: the entrance looks like a bath house :)
# [20:23] <nights> a few friends of mine work there at the android department
# [20:24] <nights> once my company bleed up all our investment i might give it another shot. hope they have no hard feelings :)
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# [20:24] <TabAtkins> We're generally blind to previous attempts, and encourage people to try again.
# [20:25] <nights> actually i didnt respond
# [20:25] <nights> so maybe the offer is still hot
# [20:25] <nights> :p
# [20:25] <nights> been two years
# [20:25] <TabAtkins> Then there's definitely no hard feelings. Go for it. ^_^
# [20:26] <nights> what do you guys think about still running a business when applying?
# [20:26] <nights> maybe that wouldnt look good?
# [20:26] <TabAtkins> I have no idea what our policies might be about that.
# [20:27] <TabAtkins> I suspect it's problematic to be *working* at another company at the same time. But just working/running one while applying is probably fine?
# [20:27] <nights> its essentially bootstrapped
# [20:28] <smaug____> nights: there are other (less evil ;) ) companies than the big G.
# [20:28] <nights> hehe
# [20:28] <TabAtkins> LIES
# [20:28] <nights> i worked for the most evil company in the world
# [20:28] <nights> so my perception is quite damaged
# [20:29] <Ms2ger> Facebook?
# [20:29] <TabAtkins> Sony?
# [20:29] <nights> actually ive worked for sony
# [20:29] * smaug____ has also background in an evil empire
# [20:29] <nights> but that wasnt the company i had in mind
# [20:29] <nights> an american bank
# [20:29] <Ms2ger> Mordor?
# [20:29] <smaug____> Nah, never visited Mordor, though Morgoth was a nice boss
# [20:30] <nights> mordor
# [20:30] <nights> that must be much nicer than where i went
# [20:30] <smaug____> :)
# [20:30] <nights> :)
# [20:31] <nights> the dark lord at that company basically had a will to dominate all life
# [20:31] <nights> so there was similarities
# [20:32] <nights> over me he poured his cruelty, his malice and a shitty bonus
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# [20:45] <annevk> am I missing something or is http://daringfireball.net/2012/05/bigger_display_iphone_thing_wwdc not discussing landscape mode weird?
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# [20:55] <annevk> about that email problem I had earlier
# [20:55] <annevk> just learned of http://sparrowmailapp.com/mac.php via http://www.metafilter.com/116164/Comin-like-a-ghost-town#4358181
# [20:55] <annevk> apparently it has support for the Gmail label concept
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# [20:57] <smaug____> rafaelw_: hey, does the webkit implementation of MutationObserver support DocumentFragment?
# [20:58] <Ms2ger> A test!
# [20:58] <smaug____> I tested, but only using C19
# [20:59] <smaug____> haven't figured out where to download newer build for Linux (.zip/tar.* package, not rpm)
# [20:59] <smaug____> C19 didn't pass the test
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# [21:06] <smaug____> TabAtkins: do you happen to know if there are .zip builds of chromium available ?
# [21:06] <smaug____> I do have a .zip for C19
# [21:07] <smaug____> but don't remember where I downloaded it
# [21:07] <smaug____> linux builds
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# [21:10] <Wilto> Not gonna lie, guys: I’m pretty pumped about Florian’s compromise proposal.
# [21:10] <Wilto> Also: “Florian’s Compromise” would be a great name for either a bar or a scientific theory.
# [21:10] <Wilto> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-May/036162.html
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# [21:11] <Wilto> Seems like it covers everyone’s bases.
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# [21:19] <sicking> annevk: why aren't we adding the "chunked-text" and "chunked-arraybuffer" responsetypes to XHR?
# [21:20] <annevk> pretty sure I emailed about that
# [21:21] <annevk> so Sparrow does not do bottom posting
# [21:22] <annevk> other than that it's pretty neat... :/
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# [21:35] <TabAtkins> smaug____: No clue.
# [21:36] <TabAtkins> annevk: "Does not", or "does not automatically"?
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# [21:37] <annevk> does not as far as I can tell
# [21:37] <annevk> I could not find an option that inserts the signature at the bottom by default and leaves no space at the top
# [21:38] <TabAtkins> Oh, okay. That counts as "not automatically" as far as I'm concerned. You can always put your signature down there yourself.
# [21:38] <annevk> initially I was afraid plain text was also doomed, but that appears to be a simple setting (which is not accessible via the preferences panel, but whatever)
# [21:38] <TabAtkins> Benefit of having a trivial signature.
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# [21:40] <annevk> yeah sure, I could type the whole response myself including all the quotes, too
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# [21:41] <TabAtkins> That's a silly extrapolation.
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# [21:50] <dglazkov> jgraham, Ms2ger: I actually prefer writing specs in just HTML.
# [21:50] <Ms2ger> So do I
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# [21:53] <TabAtkins> I write my specs in a combination of HTML and Spanish.
# [21:55] <annevk> dglazkov: you don't use any scripts to generate table of contents and such?
# [21:55] <annevk> dglazkov: or cross-specification cross-references?
# [21:56] <annevk> dglazkov: because I prefer HTML too and I use Anolis for some of the boring stuff
# [21:56] <dglazkov> annevk: I wrote some simple scripts for the most annoying stuff.
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# [21:57] <annevk> dglazkov: what language did you use?
# [21:57] <dglazkov> annevk: Jabba Script
# [21:57] <annevk> dglazkov: I might be interested in that, maybe we don't need all of Anolis
# [21:57] <annevk> dglazkov: heh
# [21:58] <dglazkov> :)
# [22:03] <dglazkov> annevk: I need to look at Anolis too. the Pythoney smell took me back at first.
# [22:03] <dglazkov> another thing I've been experimenting with is using c9.io for spec-editing.
# [22:03] <dglazkov> but it's still pretty wonky
# [22:04] <annevk> so currently Shadow DOM is still using the legacy DOM-style
# [22:04] <dglazkov> who is bjoern hoehrmann?
# [22:04] <annevk> I take it that's because of Jabba Script?
# [22:05] <annevk> dglazkov: http://thebjoernhoehrmannproject.org/
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# [22:05] <dglazkov> no, that's because I stole the style from respec
# [22:05] <annevk> dglazkov: student/ex-student? from Germany; not much else is known :)
# [22:06] <annevk> a Ms2ger with an actual name and slightly different location within Europe
# [22:06] <Ms2ger> Also, I don't care for Frisian
# [22:06] <annevk> and when you troll it's never subtle :p
# [22:07] <Ms2ger> Oh, no
# [22:07] <TabAtkins> dglazkov: I don't know, but on CSS issues he's a troll.
# [22:08] <dglazkov> GMail needs a troll hat feature.
# [22:08] <Ms2ger> He's the only person who ever got a W3C spec rescinded, afaik
# [22:08] <TabAtkins> Wow, which one?
# [22:09] <TabAtkins> Also: how?
# [22:09] <Ms2ger> "Spiderman and the XHTML Kindergarten" / http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009May/0029.html
# [22:09] <Ms2ger> They republished anyway soon after, but still
# [22:10] <annevk> he also once submitted 300-500 emails about issues in SVG
# [22:11] <Ms2ger> I also rather enjoyed http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Apr/0072.html
# [22:12] <annevk> oh sweet
# [22:12] <annevk> smaug____ went ahead
# [22:12] <annevk> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/e54a85233701
# [22:12] <annevk> yay smaug____
# [22:12] <TabAtkins> smaug____++
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# [22:12] <dglazkov> smaug____++ indeed
# [22:13] <smaug____> waiting for webkit to unprefix too :)
# [22:14] <annevk> Ms2ger: agreed, updated http://thebjoernhoehrmannproject.org/
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# [22:15] <Ms2ger> \o/
# [22:15] <Ms2ger> Now I really accomplished something :)
# [22:18] <annevk> hmm
# [22:18] <annevk> maybe I should use some prefixes in that XML document
# [22:18] <annevk> Google seems to badly cheat
# [22:18] <gsnedders> Ideally in such a way as to expose browser bugs.
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# [22:19] <annevk> gsnedders: are there still browser bugs with prefixes?
# [22:19] <annevk> gsnedders: other than Opera applying html:class or some such?
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# [22:21] <gsnedders> annevk: I dunno.
# [22:22] <gsnedders> annevk: That Opera bug is the only one I know of off hand, but I know our bugs better than anyone else's.
# [22:22] <annevk> gsnedders: don't you learn anything at uni? :p
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# [22:22] <gsnedders> annevk: Pretty much, no.
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# [22:23] <annevk> btw
# [22:23] <annevk> the stuff about layout
# [22:23] <annevk> that does not actually apply to media queries afaik
# [22:24] <annevk> the whole point about media queries is that they don't depend on layout
# [22:24] <annevk> the font-size preference from the user (defaulting to 16px) is known way before layout
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# [22:24] <annevk> and that's the only font-size 'em' in media queries depends upon
# [22:25] <annevk> same for 'rem'
# [22:25] <annevk> and 'ex', etc.
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# [22:45] <jgraham> dglazkov: I write specs in blood myself
# [22:45] <jgraham> Tony Wilson style
# [22:45] <gsnedders> Next you'll be documenting how to open the chamber of secrets…
# [22:46] <dglazkov> jgraham: that's why they are always called First Public Working Draw
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# [22:51] * Ms2ger hisses "Open"
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# [22:52] <jgraham> Ms2ger is a parselmouth?
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# [22:53] <Ms2ger> There have been precedents of non-parselmouths opening the chamber of secrets
# [22:54] <dglazkov> hey, Harry Potter is a fellow standards wonk! He has specs!
# [22:54] <TabAtkins> Boooooo
# [22:55] <dglazkov> :P
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# [22:55] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Indeed. Notably Ron Weasley.
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# [22:56] <Ms2ger> dglazkov, wow
# [22:56] <Ms2ger> That was pretty bad
# [22:56] <dglazkov> so bad it's good?
# [22:56] <Ms2ger> No
# [22:56] <jgraham> The other kind
# [22:56] <Ms2ger> Afraid not
# [22:56] <dglazkov> :D
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# [23:01] <WeirdAl> oh, Harry Potter. :|
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# [23:01] <dglazkov> speaking of Ron Weasley, how do we define HTML interfaces from JavaScript perspective? For example, what is the distinction between HTMLElement and any object that implements this interface?
# [23:01] <dglazkov> magic hosted objects aside
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# [23:02] <WeirdAl> testability?
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# [23:02] <dglazkov> both document.createElement('div') and window.HTMLDivElement are just objects that have HTMLElement in their prototype chain
# [23:03] <TabAtkins> document.createElement('div') creates an element with HTMLDivElement as its prototype.
# [23:03] <dglazkov> window.HTMLDivElement.prototype that is
# [23:03] <TabAtkins> HTMLDivElement has HTMLElement in its prototype.
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# [23:05] <dglazkov> right. But from JS perspective, they are really not special in any way. There's no such thing as an "interface" in JS. So how do we get around this in DOM specs?
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# [23:05] <Ms2ger> What do you mean, get around this in DOM specs?
# [23:05] <Ms2ger> What are you trying to do?
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# [23:07] <dglazkov> darn it, gotta run
# [23:07] <dglazkov> bbiab
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# [23:14] <TabAtkins> dglazkov: Something is an "interface" if it doesn't have a constructor.
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# Session Close: Thu May 24 00:00:00 2012

The end :)