/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-06-01 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Jun 01 00:00:01 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:19] <Hixie> TabAtkins: what is a Name?
# [00:20] <TabAtkins> The syntax isn't decided yet, but the functionality is http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:private_names
# [00:20] <TabAtkins> it's a gensym, basically.
# [00:20] <TabAtkins> The way that JS finally gains private properties.
# [00:21] <TabAtkins> Alternately, http://www.xanthir.com/blog/b4FJ0
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# [00:22] <Hixie> ah
# [00:22] <Hixie> weird
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# [00:23] <Hixie> and "..." is an in-place array expansion operator?
# [00:23] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
# [00:23] <Hixie> well this is certainly simpler than i feared
# [00:23] <Hixie> but not as simple as i'd like
# [00:24] <Hixie> :-)
# [00:24] <Hixie> whenever i look at the new JS stuff I feel like it's invented by computer science researchers
# [00:24] <Hixie> rather than being copied from mainstream programming languages
# [00:25] <Hixie> i can't help but wonder how regular authors will deal with it
# [00:25] <TabAtkins> This is largely because it is. Also because the ESWG prefers to add new primitives, and then come along later and see what easy-to-use APIs to standardize on top of them.
# [00:25] <Hixie> seems kinda like the opposite of what we do for the rest of the web
# [00:26] <TabAtkins> Kinda, yeah.
# [00:26] <Hixie> where we try desperately not to innovate
# [00:26] <Hixie> anyway
# [00:26] <TabAtkins> Or, wait.
# [00:26] <TabAtkins> The point is that libraries get to innovate on top of the new primitives, and then we come through and bless the best solution.
# [00:27] <Hixie> what i don't understand is why the primitives and libraries have to be in JS rather than in other languages
# [00:27] <Hixie> as in
# [00:27] <Hixie> why don't we look at existing libraries and languages and copy the already known best solutions
# [00:28] <Hixie> rather than making JS have arcane computer science theory primitives, as well as, later, higher-level solutions to some problems
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# [00:28] <TabAtkins> Because without the primitives, a lot of problems *can't* be solved in a reasonable way?
# [00:29] <Hixie> in the abstract, i find that hard to refute
# [00:31] <Hixie> but for example, why do we need to provide a way for a property to be sealed dynamically, rather than just having statically defined classes with properties that can't be changed dynamically anyway?
# [00:32] <TabAtkins> I can't comment much on the desire for sealing properties.
# [00:32] <TabAtkins> But I suspect that at least some of it is that getting WG agreement on a class syntax is much harder than WG agreement on the ability to seal.
# [00:32] <TabAtkins> (Which is why JS *still* doesn't have a class syntax.)
# [00:33] <Hixie> fricking committee-driven design
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# [00:36] <Hixie> imageSmoothing... should affect patterns, right?
# [00:36] <TabAtkins> I think so.
# [00:37] <TabAtkins> Patterns can be resized and whatnot, right?
# [00:37] <TabAtkins> If so, yes.
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# [00:38] <Hixie> yeah
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# [00:43] <rafaelw_> hixie: reference for H4X?
# [00:43] <Hixie> dunno offhand
# [00:43] <Hixie> it's basically just e4x but for html
# [00:43] <Hixie> i don't think anything formal has been written, since it never gets any traction
# [00:44] <zewt> heh, the worst features of all languages seem to be where they get "creative"
# [00:45] <rafaelw_> ok. that makes it hard for me to respond =-)
# [00:46] <Hixie> just imagine e4x but without namespaces and without comment support.
# [00:46] <Hixie> (and with some of the <svg>/<math> namespace magic, i guess)
# [00:47] <Hixie> if it's something you think we can get traction on amongst implementors of js engines, i'm sure we can come up with an actual proposal that a js person could turn into a real spec
# [00:47] <TabAtkins> Unrelated: all of a sudden, today all the IE people started sending mail in large blue text.
# [00:47] <TabAtkins> Maybe they all got a corporate Outlook upgrade?
# [00:48] <Hixie> rafaelw_: (oh, another change from e4x would be that the elements created using h4x actually be DOM nodes, not a parallel data structure like in e4x)
# [00:49] <smaug____> I don't think that was the idea with e4x. Brendan just never implemented the DOM binding
# [00:50] <rafaelw_> I guess my question is how would it avoid the context element problem?
# [00:51] <Hixie> smaug____: e4x had a kind of implied casting, but there were definitely two different types of objects in play
# [00:51] <Hixie> smaug____: even with that mapping that never got implemented
# [00:51] <tantek> objects are overrated
# [00:51] <Hixie> rafaelw_: just always require end tags and don't do any optional tags
# [00:52] <Hixie> rafaelw_: so there's only one parse mode
# [00:52] <Hixie> rafaelw_: (it doesn't have to match the HTML syntax, it just has to be at least as terse for most purposes)
# [00:52] <rafaelw_> And it wouldn't do any fixup?
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# [00:52] <Hixie> right, any syntax errors would be JS syntax errors
# [00:52] <rafaelw_> So "<option>Foo<option>Bar" throws an error?
# [00:52] <Hixie> and wouldn't compile
# [00:52] <Hixie> it doesn't throw, it just doesn't compile
# [00:53] <Hixie> like "var = foo"
# [00:53] <Hixie> rafaelw_: i think maybe i misrememberd the proposal name. try googling for e4h?
# [00:54] <rafaelw_> The main problem I see with this is it means required page authors to learn another HTML which is different from the HTML they know.
# [00:54] <Hixie> i don't think that's a huge problem, authors dealt fine with JSON e.g.
# [00:54] <smaug____> it wouldn't be that different, at least in most cases
# [00:54] <Hixie> which isn't quite the same as JS
# [00:55] <Hixie> rafaelw_: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2011OctDec/thread.html#msg65
# [00:55] <Hixie> E4H
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# [00:56] <Hixie> quasi-literals is the other thing people have proposed in this space
# [00:56] <Hixie> which i think has a bit more traction over in JS land
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# [00:57] <Hixie> which isn't quite as cool imho but is more generic and, at least in some proposals, still gets you the syntax checking
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# [00:58] <wodemay> what's with these? why are y'all putting presentational elements back into html5? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_tag#Presentation What's the rationale?
# [00:59] <Hixie> wodemay: ?
# [00:59] <Hixie> wodemay: the premise of the question is incorrect, unless you mean <canvas>, i guess
# [00:59] <wodemay> Hixie, <b>/<i>/<u> (i understand u, there's no semantic equivalent. but the other two...?)
# [01:00] <Hixie> wodemay: please read the HTML spec, you'll find none of those are presentational
# [01:00] <TabAtkins> The wikipedia page explains the semantic meaning of those elements.
# [01:00] <TabAtkins> As does the HTML spec.
# [01:01] <wodemay> TabAtkins, I have read both. But I find it a hard sell to believe that those are not presentational.
# [01:01] <Hixie> what's your definition of "presentational"?
# [01:01] <TabAtkins> Okay. Shrug, then. If the part where they say "these have meaning" doesn't mean "not presentational" to you, then I'm not sure what to say.
# [01:01] <wodemay> as with <hr>, since it's explicitly horizontal.
# [01:02] <TabAtkins> Huh?
# [01:02] * wodemay rereads the wiki and spec.
# [01:02] <TabAtkins> <hr> will generate a vertical rule in vertical text.
# [01:03] <rafaelw_> hixie: re: E4X & js quasi literals
# [01:03] <Hixie> the definition of <hr> doesn't even mention the word "horizontal"
# [01:03] <rafaelw_> Conceptually what E4X proposes are two complementary things:
# [01:03] <Hixie> wodemay: make sure you're reading the latest spec, maybe you're looking at an out of date one. http://whatwg.org/html
# [01:03] <rafaelw_> a) HTML literals in JS (so you get parse errors at load time)
# [01:03] <wodemay> Hixie, okay, thanks.
# [01:03] <rafaelw_> b) A new HTML parser
# [01:04] <rafaelw_> Maybe it's worth separating these issues.
# [01:04] <Hixie> rafaelw_: well it's not a new HTML parser, it's just a new set of literals in the JS parser
# [01:04] <rafaelw_> So it wouldn't use any parser?
# [01:04] <Hixie> it's JS
# [01:05] <Hixie> it uses the same parser as parsing "function () { }" or "-35.23"
# [01:05] <Hixie> same as E4X
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# [01:05] <rafaelw_> Would "<div><tr><td>Foo</td><tr></div>" be valid?
# [01:05] <rafaelw_> Would "<div><tr><td>Foo</td></tr></div>" be valid?
# [01:05] <Hixie> what do you mean by "valid" in this context?
# [01:06] <rafaelw_> would it throw a parse error.
# [01:06] <rafaelw_> is it "statically valid"
# [01:06] <Hixie> the script var foo = <div><tr><td>Foo</td></tr></div>; would not throw a parse error, but would generate a DOM tree that is non-conforming to HTML.
# [01:06] <Hixie> and assign it to the variable "foo"
# [01:06] <wodemay> TabAtkins, sorry... I was a little confused and remembered somethiing different as the HTML5 subsections of those elements' sections on the wiki and was basing my memory of the official spec's explanations on that. But still, don't the tagnames derive their etymology from an earlier presentational incarnation? Shouldn't they get new names that are semantic to the core?
# [01:06] <Hixie> or i should say, |foo|
# [01:06] <rafaelw_> i see.
# [01:06] <rafaelw_> what about
# [01:07] <rafaelw_> var foo = <div>Foo</div><div>Bar</div>
# [01:07] <TabAtkins> wodemay: Yes, they were presentational in old versions. But they were often used in a way that had a somewhat consistent meaning, which HTML5 now codifies.
# [01:07] <Hixie> wodemay: the tag names are just opaque strings, where possible we reuse those that are already implemented because it means we get things for free (e.g. the default rendering of the "instance of term" element <i> is already italics in old browsers because those browsers think they mean "italics")
# [01:08] <Hixie> rafaelw_: there's no concrete proposal, so it's hard to say. one could say that two HTML literals side by side result in an implied documentFragment, but personally I would prefer that we say that if you want a DF you have to wrap the elements in <>...</>
# [01:09] <rafaelw_> i see.
# [01:09] <rafaelw_> so it literally becomes a short-hand for equivalent calls to createElement, appendChild, setAttribute, etc...
# [01:09] <Hixie> yeah
# [01:09] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's the easiest way to think of it.
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# [01:10] <smaug____> not so fun part would be that workers shouldn't allow that syntax
# [01:10] <wodemay> Hixie, but isn't part of the html5 concept that webpages coded in the 90s will still work on browser versions released in 2020 anyway? Doesn't said concept cover your scenario? Can't HTML5-thespec name them something diff?
# [01:11] <TabAtkins> wodemay: What's the value in naming them differently, then?
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# [01:11] <zewt> (<i> does mean italics, because that's how it renders and that's what everyone uses it for; you can wave your arms around fiercely trying to say it means something else, but that's what it means :)
# [01:11] <rafaelw_> well. i can tell you that the ship has sailed on new features for ES6.
# [01:11] <rafaelw_> JS quasi's are approved in proposal.
# [01:12] <rafaelw_> presumably you could define that HTML quasis parse this way, but i don't think you'd get load-time parse errors like you want.
# [01:12] <rafaelw_> in any case, you could look at what you're describing as an alternate proposal for the behavior of Document.parse().
# [01:12] <rafaelw_> no?
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# [01:13] <wodemay> TabAtkins, Let's say someone is born 2015 and begins learning to code HTML5 docs in the year 2030. There shouldn't be any remnants of the stone ages of mixing pres and content. They shouldn't ever *think* of tags as having presentational meaning. Naming them differently will prevent them from getting misused.
# [01:13] <rafaelw_> who is parsing doesn't matter to authors.
# [01:13] <Hixie> smaug____: yeah, we'd have to define some solution to that
# [01:13] <TabAtkins> wodemay: That seems gratuitous. There's nothing wrong with the name, and in a lot of cases, the legacy uses of it are consistent with the new semantics.
# [01:14] <Hixie> smaug____: long term we need some solution to the DOM in workers anyway, even if it's just some nerfed versions of the objects
# [01:14] <wodemay> its like the debate about @hidden vs. @irrelevant.
# [01:14] <Hixie> wodemay: well, <i> still works, right? :-)
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# [01:14] <wodemay> Hixie, your point?
# [01:14] <smaug____> I do think DOM will just work in workers
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# [01:15] <Hixie> wodemay: nameing them differently doesn't prevent them from being misused... just look at people using <blockquote> for indentation :-)
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# [01:16] <wodemay> Hixie, but accurate naming does have value (again, i'll cite the @hidden vs. @irrelevant debate)
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# [01:17] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Did you say somewhere that <intent> is okay to be a self-closing tag in the head?
# [01:17] <Hixie> wodemay: certainly, but that value must be balanced against other concerns, e.g. backwards compatibility
# [01:18] <Hixie> TabAtkins: my latest thinking on web intents is in a recent e-mail to the whatwg list, i do not recall my precise statements therein
# [01:18] <Hixie> TabAtkins: though i intend to look at that topic again soon
# [01:18] <TabAtkins> Darn, that means I"ll have to look it up.
# [01:18] <Hixie> heh sorry :-)
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# [01:19] <wodemay> Anyone know when ECMA6 is meant to become widely implemented?
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# [01:20] <TabAtkins> Like HTML, it's implemented in bits and pieces.
# [01:20] <ojan> Hixie: i think at some level the rub is what you svg/mathml magic you do
# [01:20] <wodemay> How about `multi
# [01:20] <wodemay> line
# [01:21] <ojan> Hixie: i think also that lots of people will want <p>, <li>, <td> without a close tag to work
# [01:21] <wodemay> string-literals`?
# [01:21] <ojan> Hixie: other than that, i'm ok with your proposal as an alternative to implied context parsing
# [01:22] <ojan> Hixie: wait are you saying also that things like <img> will require a close tag?
# [01:22] <Hixie> ojan: i would just have the syntax support <foo/>
# [01:22] <gsnedders> wodemay: I'd guess sometime in the next year and a half.
# [01:22] <ojan> Hixie: ok...so it's basically xml?
# [01:22] <Hixie> ojan: we could hardcode some specific tag names if people think that's necessary
# [01:22] <Hixie> ojan: yeah
# [01:23] <wodemay> gsnedders, but it's already in chromium/v8... right?
# [01:23] <Hixie> ojan: like i said, it's very close to e4x
# [01:23] <ojan> Hixie: would you be opposed to <p>, <li>, etc without a close tag?
# [01:23] <Hixie> ojan: not especially, if it helped sell the feature :-)
# [01:23] <gsnedders> wodemay: Not really. Both SM and V8 implement relatively small parts of ES6
# [01:23] <ojan> lol, ok
# [01:23] <Hixie> ojan: wouldn't be my first choice though :-)
# [01:23] <ojan> Hixie: just trying to understand what you're proposing...
# [01:24] <gsnedders> IE10 now supports at least Flash in Metro :(
# [01:24] <wodemay> gsnedders, i was referring specifically to multiline string literal backtick syntax.
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# [01:25] <gsnedders> wodemay: Oh, that I don't know off-hand.
# [01:25] <Hixie> ojan: making omitting an end tag work would be... interesting, because you end up having to hard-code into the JS parser the list of elements that imply the </p>
# [01:25] <gsnedders> Please don't do that.
# [01:25] <roc_> I'm a wee bit frustrated to post to the list saying "we're changing our behavior in Gecko and the spec needs to be updated" and get replies from other implementors saying "oh, we already changed that ages ago"
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# [01:26] <Hixie> roc_: agreed (and my apologies if the reason is that i'm not keeping the spec up to date fast enough)
# [01:26] <roc_> I don't think so in this case :-)
# [01:27] <gsnedders> Nor did jgraham when he mentioned it earlier :(
# [01:28] <wodemay> rafaelw_, BTW, the "ship" isn't ever intended to "sail," so to speak, for new additions or features to HTML5, correct?
# [01:28] <Hixie> wodemay: the ship sails when implementations ship
# [01:28] <Hixie> boy that sentence could be clearer
# [01:28] <smaug____> roc_: which case is this?
# [01:29] <wodemay> Hixie, but that's a very regular sailing. It isn't a singular ship that sails and then never comes back. It's more like a ferry, right?
# [01:29] <Hixie> wodemay: not sure a shipping metaphor is very apt to be honest :-)
# [01:29] <smaug____> ah, some video thing
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# [01:29] <Hixie> wodemay: to put it in non-metaphorical terms, we can change the spec in any way that is compatible with the web
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# [01:29] <wodemay> hahah. but u follow me? Hixie
# [01:29] <Hixie> wodemay: at any time
# [01:29] <wodemay> Hixie, what does that mean?
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# [01:30] <Hixie> wodemay: e.g. we can't rename <p> to <b>, because that would cause zillions of pages to render differnetly than expected
# [01:30] <jamesr_> they'd be upside down
# [01:30] <Hixie> wodemay: but we can introduce a new element <askfjya78e6ads> because there is no page in the world that depends on it being implemented or not
# [01:30] <Hixie> (i assume)
# [01:30] <Hixie> (we'd have to check)
# [01:30] <wodemay> so 20 years from now the current spec will still be some iteration of html5, but it might have some tags deprecated and some added, correct? and then the same will be true as compared to then 30 years from now?
# [01:31] <Hixie> wodemay: well we don't call it "html5", we call it "html", but yes, essentially. until someone comes along with something that makes html obsolete once and for all.
# [01:31] <wodemay> Hixie, hahah, talk about being thorough. ;) somehow i feel like there aren't!
# [01:31] <Hixie> which i'm sure everyone here is hoping will happen as soon as possible
# [01:31] <wodemay> Hixie, hahahahaha. me included!
# [01:32] <wodemay> There should be something like JSON that makes it less redundant. or sthg that draws on HAML syntax.
# [01:32] <wodemay> but why not call it "html5", Hixie ?
# [01:32] <roc_> the thing is, people keep trying to kill HTML and we keep trying to stop them
# [01:33] <Hixie> roc_: whose trying to stop them?
# [01:33] <roc_> generally because the replacement is worse in some important dimension
# [01:34] <roc_> Mozilla, other browser vendors, Web standards people
# [01:34] <Hixie> roc_: people keep trying to kill html and they keep failing, i don't think we're stopping them
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# [01:34] <roc_> we're killing Flash
# [01:34] <Hixie> adobe is killing flash
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# [01:34] <kennyluck> Who are trying to kill HTML?
# [01:35] <roc_> Microsoft and Adobe tried
# [01:35] <Hixie> wodemay: the question is not "why not", the question is "why" :-)
# [01:35] <smaug____> W3C tried
# [01:35] <wodemay> the answer in that case is "b/c it's more specific," Hixie
# [01:35] <Hixie> wodemay: specific how?
# [01:35] <roc_> hehe
# [01:38] <wodemay> Hixie, it specifies the version number ..?
# [01:38] <Hixie> roc_: i think the metaphor that applies here is something like "several people are building towers out of blocks. the people building the tower not labeled 'html' keep knocking down their towers by mistake or poor design. the tower labeled 'html' is a big heap and so doesn't fall."
# [01:38] <wodemay> smaug____, what's the difference between WHATWG and W3C?
# [01:38] <Hixie> roc_: it's not like the people building the html tower keep going over and knocking down the other towers
# [01:38] <roc_> that is a good analogy
# [01:38] <gsnedders> wodemay: But browsers never implement all of one version — they just implement bits and pieces.
# [01:38] <gsnedders> wodemay: Version numbers only make sense if the spec gets implemented in full, but it never does.
# [01:38] <Hixie> wodemay: there is no version. the spec changes daily, the browsers implement different slices of it at any one time and also change daily.
# [01:39] <wodemay> is that why the html5 doctype dec is html and not html5?
# [01:39] <roc_> that's not really what "kill" means in this context. No-one ever kills a competitor's product directly, only by out-competing it. And that's what we've done with HTML.
# [01:41] <ojan> Hixie: what would you say the advantage of E4H is compared to implied context parsing?
# [01:41] <ojan> Hixie: is it just that it's simpler for web developers? faster?
# [01:42] <gsnedders> ojan: Harder to screw up. People notice syntax errors in JS.
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# [01:42] <Hixie> ojan: by "implied context parsing" you mean "runtime parsing of a string"? if so, the main advantage is compile-time syntax checking.
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# [01:43] <Hixie> roc_: i think there's a qualitative difference between out-competing by intentionally addressing a competitor's weaknesses and explicitly having as a goal the competitor's downfall, and out-competing by ignoring the competition and having them fall by the wayside
# [01:43] <Hixie> roc_: and i would strongly suggest that HTML has done only the latter.
# [01:43] <Hixie> ojan, rafaelw_: here's a strawman proposal: http://www.hixie.ch/specs/e4h/strawman
# [01:43] <ojan> Hixie: oic...you wouldn't get syntax erros with the current quasis proposal either :(
# [01:44] <Hixie> ojan, rafaelw_: (doesn't handle SVG yet)
# [01:44] <astearns> <video> completely ignored everyone else, I'm sure :)
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# [01:44] <Hixie> ojan: oh, really? that's sad. i thought brendan said we would, based on the thread i cited earlier.
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# [01:45] <ojan> Hixie: i might be misreading http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=harmony:quasis
# [01:45] <Hixie> astearns: <video> on HTML has basically failed, so i don't think it's a good example if you're trying to support roc's argument :-)
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# [01:45] <Hixie> astearns: (failed due to the codec gridlock; i don't think it's a permanent failure)
# [01:45] <astearns> I hope it's not permanent
# [01:46] <TabAtkins> It won't be.
# [01:46] <Hixie> well worst case it'll resolve itself when the relevant patents expire
# [01:46] <astearns> but whether something has succeeded or failed isn't relevant to whether it's a counterexample to "only the latter"
# [01:46] <roc_> it'll resolve itself at the latest when improvements in video compression reach diminishing returns
# [01:46] <roc_> but who knows? That could be 50 years away
# [01:46] <rafaelw_> hixie: looking
# [01:47] <zewt> roc: don't forget to add twenty years for patents to expire
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# [01:47] <Hixie> astearns: granted, but at least for me, adding <video> was just about filling in HTML's weaknesses, not trying to do something to hurt another platform
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# [01:48] <Hixie> astearns: e.g. if we wanted to hurt Flash we could have done things like make it click-to-play, or made it harder to sandbox, or made it not be able to see the DOM, or any number of things
# [01:48] <Hixie> astearns: instead, alongside work on HTML there has been much work from browser vendors in actually making Flash work better
# [01:49] <Hixie> hardly the sign of trying to damage a competing platform
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# [01:49] <Hixie> even Apple, who arguably did try to damage Flash on iOS, seem to be working to help Flash on MacOS with their sandboxing
# [01:49] <astearns> I agree, but you're moving the goalposts from "ignoring" to "not intending to harm"
# [01:49] <wodemay> Hixie, what does the term "HTML5" specify, then?
# [01:50] <roc_> I think it's fair to say that a number of people have had a goal of enriching HTML to make Flash unnecessary, with the hope it will go away eventually
# [01:50] <Hixie> astearns: "ignoring" was a poor choice of words; true. we do look at existing practices in other platforms.
# [01:50] <roc_> on the grounds that we want authors to target multi-vendor royalty-free standards instead of single-vendor platforms.
# [01:50] <Hixie> roc_: yeah, that's probably fair
# [01:51] <Hixie> roc_: but i don't think that's the main reason flash has done poorly
# [01:52] <zewt> bryan of the screaming caps name posting to a thread about mailing list practices is rather ironic
# [01:54] <Hixie> ojan, rafaelw_: ok, added a strawman way of supporting svg and mathml too (requires that the element names be prefixed if they're in those namespaces)
# [01:55] <Hixie> ojan:, rafaelw_: an alternative would be to only require that for the element that crosses to another namespace, and default the rest to the parent element's namespace
# [01:55] <Hixie> ojan, rafaelw_: but that's a minor detail that could be figured out if this was to go anywhere
# [01:58] <ojan> Hixie: i'm torn here. on the one hand, compile-time errors are nice. on the other, there's a cost in people needing to learn new things and there will perpetually be confusion about parsing that works in E4H, but not HTML or vice versa.
# [01:59] <ojan> Hixie: at some level, how is this different from pushing for XHTML?
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# [02:00] <ojan> Hixie: also, I really like the API for quasis as a way of generating a DOM using javascript variables in an XSS-safe way
# [02:00] <ojan> Hixie: see the safehtml function in the quasi's proposal to see what i mean
# [02:00] <ojan> Hixie: and you don't get that with E4H, unless i'm missing something
# [02:01] <zewt> ojan: compile-time errors aren't very nice; it makes code backwards-compat/polyfill/etc very hard
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# [02:03] <zewt> i don't want to have to serve entirely different scripts for different browser capabilities
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# [02:04] <gsnedders> zewt: That's true of any langauge extention, though
# [02:04] <gsnedders> *language
# [02:04] <Hixie> ojan: the substitution thing lets you sub in the value of expressions in e4h
# [02:04] <zewt> gsnedders: sure, which is why language extensions shouldn't be used unless the justification is very strong
# [02:05] <Hixie> ojan: but in general my argument isn't that we should do e4h, my argument is that hte use case of "make a dom tree" should be solved using a better solution than "parse a string at runtime" and a better solution than "use an excessively verbose api"
# [02:05] <ojan> Hixie: well...the proposal with backing so far has been quasis + safehtml
# [02:05] <Hixie> zewt: no, it's why the language should be designed to make syntax errors block-scopable, imho :-)
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# [02:06] <ojan> Hixie: i suppose you could make safehtml do roughly what e4h does
# [02:06] <ojan> Hixie: while still using quasis
# [02:06] <Hixie> ojan: i'm not very familiar with it, do you have a link? the only proposal i was aware of was "make the html parser even more complicated and add DocumentFragment.innerHTML" (or document.parse(), same idea)
# [02:06] <ojan> Hixie: but you would still get a runtime erro instead of compile error
# [02:06] <ojan> Hixie: i linked above
# [02:07] <Hixie> got it
# [02:08] <Hixie> ojan: so this just gets implemented as a JS lib? not in the browsers?
# [02:08] <Hixie> ojan: the html-specific part, i mean
# [02:09] <ojan> Hixie: it can be, but in the case of the html-specific part, the browser would also provide it builtin
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# [02:09] <ojan> Hixie: so, pages could polyfill w a JS function
# [02:10] <Hixie> (btw, i don't really understand how the filtering is done, seems like it'd be a huge rathole of possible ways things should be escaped)
# [02:10] <Hixie> so how does the HTML parsing happen here?
# [02:10] <ojan> Hixie: for browsers that support quasies, but not the safehtml functio that is.
# [02:10] <Hixie> i don't really see a formal description of what safehtml`` or html`` would be defined as
# [02:11] <Hixie> http://js-quasis-libraries-and-repl.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/index.html doesn't seem to do anything, unless i'm missing something
# [02:12] <Hixie> oh i see, i'm getting security errors
# [02:12] <ojan> Hixie: there isn't a formal description since the implementation of safehtml is orthogonal to quasis
# [02:12] <ojan> Hixie: http://code.google.com/p/js-quasis-libraries-and-repl/source/browse/trunk/js/safehtml.js
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# [02:13] <ojan> Hixie: but the point is that quasis call the safehtml function and that function can grab the string parts and know which parts are from JS and which parts are from the quasi
# [02:13] <ojan> Hixie: you could implement safehtml in a way that gives errors when you do invalid things (e.g. mis-nest html element or quotes)
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# [02:14] <Hixie> well sure
# [02:14] <Hixie> i guess i'm asking what is it you expect browsers to implement
# [02:15] <Hixie> (this implementation of safehtml`` at http://js-quasis-libraries-and-repl.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/index.html seems to have an incomplete understanding of CSS)
# [02:15] <ojan> Hixie: yeah, we'd have to decide how safehtml should work. there's been basically 0 discussion of that
# [02:15] <ojan> Hixie: it could certainly work like your E4H proposal + context-aware escaping
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# [02:16] <ojan> Hixie: or it coudl work like the Document.parse proposal + context-aware escaping
# [02:16] <ojan> the only major difference from E4H is you'd get the error when calling safehtml instead of when parsing the JS
# [02:16] <Hixie> yeah
# [02:17] <Hixie> that seems like sadness
# [02:17] <ojan> whether you do E4H style parsing or implied context parsing is orthogonal
# [02:17] <Hixie> right
# [02:17] <ojan> Hixie: meh. that doesn't really bother me
# [02:17] <Hixie> you've spent too much time with js and not enough with Real Languages. :-P
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# [02:18] <ojan> Hixie: might be true. although, the last four years has been mostly C++ and python
# [02:18] <Hixie> i switch between compiled strongly statically typed languages on the server and JS on the client all the time and the fact that i can typo a variable name in JS and nobody tells me until hours later i hit that codepath drives me utterly batty
# [02:18] <Hixie> where on the other side, the slightest typo gets immediately detected
# [02:19] <Hixie> not to mention more subtle things like assigning radians to degrees and so on
# [02:19] <Hixie> which don't even get caught at runtime in js
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# [02:20] <Hixie> hell i can pass a Document object where I meant to pass a string and JS is like "sure buddy, here ya go"
# [02:20] <Hixie> "i bet you meant to just output the string '[Document object]' buddy"
# [02:20] <Hixie> </rant>
# [02:20] <ojan> :)
# [02:21] <ojan> Hixie: yes, i don't disagree that it's better
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# [02:22] <Hixie> anyway, bbiab :-)
# [02:22] <roc_> and yet, untyped languages keep winning
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# [02:26] <jamesr_> so does charlie sheen
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# [02:32] <wodemay> wtf is e4h?
# [02:33] <roc_> Academic PL researchers keep asking me why untyped languages win, and I have to tell them I have no idea
# [02:34] <roc_> there are lots of theories, and no data
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# [08:46] <Hixie> how has requestAnimationFrame() not been implemented yet?
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# [08:52] <odinho> Hixie: How? Well, by not doing it I believe :P
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# [09:06] <MikeSmith> Hixie: in what UA?
# [09:06] <MikeSmith> it's in Firefox and Chrome and IE at least
# [09:07] <odinho> MikeSmith: I know of one possible culprit at least :P
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# [09:07] <MikeSmith> ah
# [09:07] <odinho> I'm staring it down now.
# [09:07] <MikeSmith> you all need to get to work on that man
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# [09:08] <odinho> MikeSmith: Kinda not really my field. I want it but emoller is swamped.
# [09:08] <odinho> We should clone him or something.
# [09:08] <MikeSmith> oh
# [09:08] <MikeSmith> he's too busy writing that Emberwind stuff
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# [09:09] <MikeSmith> odinho: structured clone?
# [09:09] <odinho> MikeSmith: Would have to be something like that. Luckily we do have *that*.
# [09:10] <MikeSmith> heh
# [09:10] * Ms2ger wonders what golden PNGs are
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# [09:16] <jgraham> Ms2ger: They're the ones that get you into the chocolate factory
# [09:16] <Ms2ger> You can keep them, then :)
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# [09:44] <Ms2ger> "a CSS2.1 compatible browser like IE6"
# [09:44] <Ms2ger> Say what?
# [09:45] * jgraham sees that Hixie spent the night (note to American readers: "day") advocating Haskell in the browser
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# [10:17] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: do you still maintain http://aryeh.name/spec/innertext/innertext.html ? the setter probably needs to convert \n to <br> elements
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# [10:21] <jgraham> Seems likeWebKit preserves the window object across document.open()
# [10:22] <jgraham> Anyone know why?
# [10:23] <annevk> foolip: is there a bug on removing media="" from <source> for audio/video?
# [10:24] <annevk> jgraham: Window/WindowProxy?
# [10:24] <annevk> jgraham: not sure exactly what you mean, but the "Window object" is always preserved to some extent
# [10:25] <zcorpan> annevk: just emails iirc (re media="")
# [10:25] <jgraham> annevk: What I specifically mean is that if you set a variable on window and then document.open() then the varaible will still be set (in Opera/IE/Gecko it isn't)
# [10:27] <annevk> zcorpan: I guess that is enough
# [10:28] <jgraham> And the spec says "Replace the Document's singleton objects with new instances of those objects. (This includes in particular the Window [...] objects)"
# [10:29] <jgraham> So I guess WebKit is Just Wrong here
# [10:33] <annevk> sounds like it
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# [10:50] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, I haven't particularly been, no, but that's useful info.
# [10:50] <AryehGregor> Both setter and getter have to convert <br> <-> \n?
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# [10:52] <zcorpan> yeah
# [10:53] <zcorpan> apparently we broke the setter and people complained
# [10:53] <zcorpan> (i don't think we implemented your spec, we just regressed accidentally)
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# [11:22] <zcorpan> annevk: everything's specified in css
# [11:24] <zcorpan> see http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/cascade.html#specified-value
# [11:27] <zcorpan> annevk: what's content-fit? do you mean object-fit?
# [11:28] * zcorpan replies to teh email instead
# [11:29] <annevk> used to be content-fit
# [11:29] <annevk> CSS renames everything every other month
# [11:30] <zcorpan> it used to be image-fit
# [11:30] <zcorpan> iirc
# [11:30] <zcorpan> maybe content-fit was discussed as well
# [11:32] <zcorpan> also: other browsers, please implement object-fit :-)
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# [11:32] <zcorpan> (opera did it first)
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# [11:34] <annevk> zcorpan: would it work to just add object-fit:contain to :fullscreen?
# [11:35] <zcorpan> i think so, yeah
# [11:35] <odinho> I like object-fit:contain
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# [11:56] <odinho> jgraham, Ms2ger, AryehGregor, other testharness.js people: I kinda want a way to say "WTF don't care" about the exception being thrown in assert_throws().
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# [11:57] <Ms2ger> Why? :)
# [11:57] <odinho> I have the CORS-tests, and what the XHR throws is really not that important.
# [11:57] <odinho> In fact, it hasn't anything to do with CORS.
# [11:57] <odinho> And Mozilla is failing HARD, along with Webkit because of that.
# [11:57] <odinho> Masking other, possibly real bugs.
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# [11:57] <odinho> assert_throws(function() { bla }) should maybe do.
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# [11:58] <Ms2ger> ArtB is going to want that too, when he sees the WebStorage test I added :)
# [11:58] <odinho> and have function assert_throws(func_or_desc, func)
# [11:58] <odinho> func_or_code I mean
# [11:58] <Ms2ger> func_or_code_or_name? :)
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# [11:58] <odinho> Ms2ger: Yeah, _or_object
# [11:58] <Ms2ger> assert_throws(null, fn), maybe?
# [11:58] <odinho> Ms2ger: lemme fix that, func_or_code_or_name_or_object
# [11:59] <odinho> Ms2ger: Yeah, might be more explicit. But we use the pattern of doing them small elsewhere.
# [11:59] * Ms2ger wants typed overloads already
# [12:00] <odinho> I hear you ;]
# [12:00] <jgraham> I need a word for Gecko and WebKit. GeKit? Wecko?
# [12:00] <Ms2ger> FOSS
# [12:00] <odinho> jgraham: Guess both works.
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# [12:01] <odinho> Ms2ger: What about Dillo and links2 then? You're including too much there :]
# [12:01] <Ms2ger> Relevant FOSS? :)
# [12:01] <annevk> SaFC
# [12:01] * odinho love Dillo
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# [12:02] <jgraham> Nothing like giving your product a name that is prone to bad typos
# [12:02] <annevk> :)
# [12:02] <odinho> jgraham: lol
# [12:03] <foolip> annevk, a spec bug or an Opera bug?
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# [12:03] <Ms2ger> odinho, I'd prefer (null, fn), because really I'd rather people don't do it :)
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# [12:04] <odinho> Ms2ger: Okay, fair enough.
# [12:04] <odinho> Ms2ger: Like, you have to, know what you're doing/really want it, if you do it.
# [12:05] <Ms2ger> Right
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# [12:06] <annevk> foolip: I was thinking spec
# [12:06] <odinho> jgraham: You should really update that git repo on github... It's out of date.
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# [12:06] <jgraham> The HTML spec is too big. I keep trying to write tests for one part, and finding that it depends on another part that also doesn't have tests. So eventually I end up with not enough tests of anything
# [12:06] <annevk> foolip: but zcorpan pointed out there's an email thread already on the WHATWG list
# [12:06] <annevk> foolip: that probably works
# [12:06] <jgraham> odinho: I think you want to lookat the one on the W3C account
# [12:06] <odinho> Always thinking about specs :S
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# [12:06] <foolip> annevk, yeah, no bug AFAIK
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# [12:06] <odinho> jgraham: oh. wut :P
# [12:07] <odinho> jgraham: It's oooold as well.
# [12:07] <jgraham> odinho: Oh, I thought MikeSmith set it up to auto-push
# [12:08] <jgraham> But maybe that was just HTML
# [12:08] <jgraham> s/push/sync/
# [12:09] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Any chance of getting that for the resources repo too?
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# [12:12] <annevk> basic description for ::backdrop anyone?
# [12:13] <annevk> Note: In other words, ::backdrop gives you an additional box rendered below the element in the top layer for which it is specified.
# [12:13] <annevk> does that work?
# [12:16] <Ms2ger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012AprJun/0277.html (MO)
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# [12:17] <annevk> lol
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# [12:24] <odinho> OKay! https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js/pull/1
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# [12:24] <odinho> lunch!1
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# [13:01] * AryehGregor actually knows what the first three characters of "日本語は" mean, and what the romaji is
# [13:01] * AryehGregor only vaguely recognizes the fourth character
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# [13:49] <annevk> oh wow
# [13:49] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2011/webrtc/editor/webrtc.html#idl-def-SessionDescription
# [13:50] <annevk> WebRTC certainly became a whole lot worse...
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# [14:03] <zcorpan> -_-
# [14:05] <annevk> what smiley is that?
# [14:05] <annevk> ah
# [14:05] <annevk> sighing
# [14:06] <annevk> I emailed http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webrtc/2012Jun/0002.html
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# [14:22] <Ms2ger> Mmm
# [14:23] <Ms2ger> ctx.fillStyle = { valueOf: function() { return "blue" } }
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# [14:25] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: that should work
# [14:25] <Ms2ger> Does the spec say that? :)
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# [14:26] <zcorpan> webidl says to "convert"
# [14:27] <Ms2ger> attribute any fillStyle;
# [14:27] <zcorpan> oh, sorry
# [14:28] <zcorpan> i thought it was DOMString
# [14:28] <Ms2ger> Yeah, it can take a gradient object too
# [14:28] <Ms2ger> Philip`, thanks again for your tests, btw :)
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# [14:29] <zcorpan> i guess the spec should use (DOMString or GradientObject) instead (or whatever it's called)
# [14:29] <Ms2ger> That sounds better, yes
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# [14:30] <kennyluck> There would never be any "CSS2.1 compatible browser" if "CSS2.1" here means the current thing in /TR/. There is no model for any contradictory theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_%28mathematical_logic%29#Consistency_and_completeness
# [14:30] <kennyluck> But who used that term?
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# [14:31] <Ms2ger> Well, that's the definition of a contradictory theory
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# [14:45] <sandstrom> Anyone with an account to the whatwg-wiki? I'd like to add <meta content='notranslate' name='google'> to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MetaExtensions
# [14:45] <sandstrom> There is more information about this meta tag here: http://support.google.com/translate/#2641276
# [14:47] <odinho> Shouldn't have to litter the internet with meta tags for every single feature Google implements.
# [14:47] <odinho> Must say I dislike that design a lot.
# [14:47] <annevk> Ms2ger: is there a way to use anolis-references without changing everything else?
# [14:47] <odinho> It could maybe go as extension to robots.txt, we have that already.
# [14:47] <annevk> Ms2ger: like sprinkling data-anolis attributes throughout the output
# [14:48] <Ms2ger> How so?
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# [14:52] <annevk> Ms2ger: I prefer that references style
# [14:52] <annevk> Ms2ger: an alternative would be to just make Anolis look for either style
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# [14:52] <annevk> Ms2ger: maybe assuming you're using the separated one first; falling back to the other
# [14:52] * Ms2ger is confused
# [14:52] <Ms2ger> What are you trying to do, exactly?
# [14:53] <annevk> I want to use <div id=anolis-references></div>
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# [14:54] <annevk> and for some weird reason that is tied to --w3c-compat in the Makefile
# [14:54] <Ms2ger> Ah, yes
# [14:54] <Ms2ger> Just laziness on my part
# [14:55] <annevk> so I mentioned doing Fullscreen as a joint deliverable is asking for trouble
# [14:55] <annevk> people said no
# [14:55] <annevk> they were wrong
# [14:56] <Ms2ger> So you want --w3c-compat and just one references section?
# [14:57] <Ms2ger> annevk, ^
# [14:57] <annevk> yes
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# [14:59] <annevk> in general I'd prefer if reduce the amount of Anolis options
# [14:59] <annevk> not sure they are all needed
# [14:59] <annevk> and some of the cleanup you get with --w3c-compat such as removing the data-anolis-* stuff makes sense to just do unconditionally
# [15:00] <Ms2ger> Hmm, that's not even necessary anymore now we can use HTML
# [15:00] <Ms2ger> And hey, options are cheap :)
# [15:00] <annevk> reducing the size of the final document is worth it I think
# [15:01] <annevk> Ms2ger: -_-
# [15:05] <annevk> zcorpan: there's no constructor for MutationEvent
# [15:05] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: did you file a spec bug about fillStyle?
# [15:05] <Ms2ger> Yep
# [15:05] <zcorpan> annevk: right
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# [15:13] <Ms2ger> annevk, pushed
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# [15:15] <annevk> sweet
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# [15:35] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012May/0285.html and the follow-up are fun
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# [16:22] <karlcow> "Magicians don't need exemptions."
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# [16:34] <Philip`> "I grew up on a beach" - surely that's just argument from authority
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# [17:11] <matjas> http://mathias.html5.org/tests/javascript/identifiers/ feedback welcome
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# [17:24] <jgraham> Are there any tests for DOM traversal? i.e. http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#traversal
# [17:26] <Ms2ger> I bet we have a couple
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# [17:29] <Ms2ger> Hmm, I wonder if http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/test/unit/test_treewalker.js is the best we have for TreeWalker
# [17:29] <Ms2ger> http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/traversal/node-iterator/
# [17:30] <Ms2ger> Thank Hixie for writing some 7 years ago :)
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# [17:34] <Hixie> MikeSmith: it seems to be still prefixed in at least chrome
# [17:35] <Ms2ger> And Opera for paying...
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# [17:35] <Hixie> jgraham: it's not the HTML spec that's too big, it's HTML. Splitting the spec up wouldn't solve your problem :-(
# [17:36] <jgraham> Hixie: I know :) Possibly it wasn't obvious that I was deliberately misidentifying the problem
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# [17:48] <Hixie> jgraham: i know you know, just clarifying the record for the lurkers :-P
# [17:50] <odinho> those sneaky lurkers
# [17:50] <Hixie> wow i'm sure glad i'm not on public-tracking
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# [18:24] <Ms2ger> Hixie, you prefer reading Björns emails in the archives? :)
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# [18:25] <Hixie> i had no freaking clue what he was talking about :-P
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# [18:26] <Ms2ger> I find them even more enjoyable to read in that case :)
# [18:37] <smaug____> abarth: just curious, why did you ask about implementing WebApp Manifest spec?
# [18:37] <smaug____> in the mailing list
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# [18:38] <abarth> smaug____: it's a question of prioritization
# [18:38] <Ms2ger> Hixie, http://ian.hixie.ch/career/resume.html, "The preprocessor Mozilla uses": s/uses/used/ ;)
# [18:38] <abarth> smaug____: if there were a critical mass of folks who wanted to implement it
# [18:39] <smaug____> ah
# [18:39] <abarth> smaug____: then I would have tried to make an argument to the team that they should prioritize that work above the other sysapps work
# [18:39] <abarth> smaug____: as it is, i think that we'll get a better result if we tackle some of the core issues first
# [18:39] <abarth> e.g., security model, a handful of APIs
# [18:39] <abarth> then the requirements for the manifest will be clearer
# [18:39] <smaug____> abarth: so somewhat similar question to FileSystemAPI
# [18:40] <Ms2ger> Pff, who needs a security model
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# [18:40] <annevk5> Hixie: so we need some special language to say this is in the context of the root? Re fullscreen
# [18:40] <abarth> smaug____: do you mean as in "who's interested in implementing" or in the sense of "the requirements will be more clear in the future" ?
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# [18:41] <smaug____> both
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# [18:41] <Hixie> Ms2ger: wow, about time :-)
# [18:41] <abarth> yeah, it's a concern for me that there's only really one implementor for file system
# [18:41] <Hixie> annevk5: i dunno if i'd say it was "special" :-)
# [18:41] <Ms2ger> Hixie, it's been removed for all of a year now :)
# [18:42] <abarth> i actually argued against working on it internally when we first started
# [18:42] <smaug____> it isn't an API I'd like to implement
# [18:42] <Hixie> Ms2ger: that's still a sadly long time for that sorry excuse of a preprocessor to have been used :-P
# [18:42] <abarth> smaug____: do you mean the general idea of a file system API, or something about the specific design in the spec?
# [18:42] <Ms2ger> Hixie, oh, we've got enough horrible code that we're actually shipping :)
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# [18:43] <Hixie> Ms2ger: hah
# [18:43] <annevk5> Hixie: any precedents then?
# [18:43] <smaug____> abarth: some kind of API for file management isn't needed, but the current draft isn't the best option
# [18:43] <Hixie> annevk5: not to my knowledge
# [18:43] <annevk5> IR
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# [18:43] <annevk5> Oops
# [18:43] <smaug____> didn't sicking propose something better already
# [18:43] <smaug____> at least to handle certain problematic cases
# [18:43] <Ms2ger> smaug____, s/isn't/is/ for the first?
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# [18:43] <abarth> smaug____: I haven't followed the discussion very closely, so I don't know the answer to that question
# [18:44] <smaug____> Ms2ger: ye
# [18:44] <smaug____> s
# [18:44] <smaug____> (API is needed)
# [18:44] <abarth> do you mean https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI/DeviceStorageAPI ?
# [18:44] <smaug____> no
# [18:44] <abarth> then I'm not sure what you're referring to
# [18:45] * smaug____ needs to find the right proposal
# [18:45] <abarth> in any case, I know this is a controversial topic
# [18:45] <smaug____> yeah
# [18:45] <abarth> I suspect is going to come up in SysApps because there's a need for things related to files and groups of files
# [18:45] <abarth> but i'm hoping to keep it off the agenda for a bit
# [18:45] <abarth> so that the group can start in a happy place
# [18:46] <abarth> rather than in a sad place :)
# [18:46] <Ms2ger> glwt
# [18:46] <smaug____> :)
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# [18:47] <annevk5> Hixie: okay. But if we say it's in context of the root there are no problems I guess...
# [18:47] <Hixie> annevk5: i hope so :-)
# [18:47] <Hixie> annevk5: it's what i thought we were doing already
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# [18:49] <annevk5> Would make for an easy fix :)
# [18:49] <annevk5> Wonder what oyvind says of that
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# [19:23] <smaug____> http://www.net-security.org/secworld.php?id=13022 makes no sense
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# [19:29] <TabAtkins> annevk: I don't understand your comment saying "No because width/height are set as well" in the fullscreen thread.
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# [19:34] <Hixie> smaug____: as far as i can tell, there's three possibilities: 1, they're dumb (unlikely); 2, they realise that DNT threatens their online business' future, so they'd rather kill it now than risk it getting widely implemented (seems a bit cynical of me), or 3, they realise that DNT is a poorly designed technology for what it's trying to do and they want to illustrate this so as to help the industry come up with something that actually works (what i hope is the
# [19:34] <Hixie> case)
# [19:35] <webben> Hixie: Do you reckon DNT is badly designed? Do you have any thoughts as to what would work better?
# [19:36] <Hixie> webben: DNT is like P3P, it tells the good guys who wouldn't do anything bad with tracking anyway that they can't do anything good with tracking, and it's ignored by the bad guys.
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# [19:36] <Hixie> webben: so it gives users a false sense of security and privacy.
# [19:36] <Hixie> webben: while reducing the quality of services they receive
# [19:37] <Hixie> webben: so yeah, it's badly designed.
# [19:37] <Hixie> webben: something that's well-designed for this kind of thing would be something like tor.
# [19:37] <webben> Hixie: I agree some bad guys will ignore it (I think blocking 3rd-party cookies a la Safari might make more sense).
# [19:37] <Hixie> you don't need cookies to track people
# [19:37] <smaug____> the whole point of DNT is to just tell to good guys that don't track, please
# [19:37] <Hixie> fingerprinting is more than adequate
# [19:38] <webben> Sure, but in practice the ad industry is mostly using cookies.
# [19:38] <Hixie> smaug____: what do you mean by "track"?
# [19:38] <webben> I think the idea that "good guys who wouldn't do anything bad with tracking" depends very much on your view of what is bad.
# [19:38] <Hixie> webben: removing cookies by default will do the same as setting DNT by default, it'll just reduce the quality of ads from the good guys and make the bad guys switch to fingerprinting.
# [19:38] <smaug____> webben: very true.
# [19:38] <Hixie> webben: granted
# [19:39] <Hixie> webben: what is bad?
# [19:39] <smaug____> webben: whatever Google and Facebook do is bad, IMO, but not everybody agree with me
# [19:39] <Hixie> smaug____: what do google and facebook do?
# [19:39] <smaug____> track me
# [19:39] <Hixie> smaug____: what does "track" mean?
# [19:39] <smaug____> store cookies when they don't need to, so that they can identify me
# [19:39] <smaug____> but yes, this is all vague
# [19:39] <smaug____> I know
# [19:40] <Hixie> smaug____: i have no idea why that is bad or what it even means
# [19:40] <webben> "bad" is probably not helpful language
# [19:40] <webben> "unwanted" might be better
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# [19:41] <Hixie> i agree entirely that there is "bad" tracking. e.g. someone who wants to figure out who you are, what your interests are, what your bank is, so they can convincingly phish you.
# [19:41] * smaug____ doesn't understand "quality of ads"
# [19:41] <Hixie> but the people who do that aren't going to care if you've disabled cookies, enabled DNT, or even if it's illegal
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# [19:42] <Hixie> smaug____: a good ad is e.g. one that tells you something you didn't know, that it turns out you do want to know.
# [19:42] <smaug____> Hixie: and Google and FB very much try to figure out my interests, at least based on the ads they are showing to me, if I'm logged in to their accounts
# [19:42] <Hixie> smaug____: a bad ad is e.g. one that has nothing to do with anything you care about
# [19:43] <Hixie> smaug____: wait, you're logged in?
# [19:43] <Hixie> smaug____: how the heck is that supposed to work without tracking??
# [19:43] <webben> But that's your personal view of "good" and "bad". That doesn't necessarily accord with what people tend to want.
# [19:43] <Hixie> webben: i'm happy to entertain your definitions if you like
# [19:44] * smaug____ doesn't actually use Google, so, no, not logged in
# [19:44] <webben> I'd avoid the words for the most part.
# [19:44] <webben> it's Do Not Track, not Do No Evil
# [19:44] <Hixie> this conversation seems to have about the same level of rational discourse as most discussions around DNT, which is maybe why i'm skeptical about DNT
# [19:45] <Hixie> i honestly don't think most people who want it have any idea what its implications are or what it is they are worried about
# [19:45] <smaug____> webben: "Evil" is of course very vague.
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# [19:46] <Hixie> smaug____, webben: if there is a specific fear you have, i'm happy to discuss it, but i don't know how to make progress with this level of vagueness
# [19:46] <smaug____> :)
# [19:46] <smaug____> very true
# [19:46] <smaug____> DNT is all about vagueness
# [19:47] <webben> As a future implementor (for my dayjob for a data provider for quality advertising) I think it's useful to have a flag to tell me that a user wouldn't want to have data collected about them and shared with advertisers.
# [19:47] <Hixie> sharing data with advertisers seems like a generally bad idea anyway
# [19:47] <webben> My concerns are more around the specifics of what is allowed, e.g. what logs can we/must we keep for security/auditing purposes.
# [19:47] <Hixie> since you can't control what the advertisers do with it
# [19:48] <webben> Hixie: Well... yeah... that's one of the reasons people might want not be tracked.
# [19:49] <Hixie> webben: how will DNT stop it?
# [19:50] <webben> Hixie: Well, in our case (for example), I suspect we'll end up not tracking requests with DNT: 1.
# [19:50] <Hixie> are you sharing data with advertisers today?
# [19:51] <webben> In the sense of segments in ad platforms like DoubleClick, yeah.
# [19:51] <Hixie> to my knowledge, doubleclick doesn't share data with advertisers
# [19:52] <webben> i guess that depends on what you mean by "share data"
# [19:52] <Hixie> i assumed you meant something like "hey, bob looked at your ad, they're a 12 year old living in norway"
# [19:52] <webben> oh. no.
# [19:52] <Hixie> well i assume nobody is giving anything worse than that!
# [19:53] <Hixie> even that much seems like something nobody should be giving today!
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# [19:55] <webben> No, this is more like: we track some users, we conclude (insert magic) they're male, we insert them in a male segment in doubleclick, an advertiser pays for use of the male segment in doubleclick, they end up getting shown an ad.
# [19:55] <webben> i think it's useful to have a mechanism for user's to opt out of that.
# [19:55] <Hixie> there's no sharing of data with the advertiser there
# [19:56] <Hixie> why?
# [19:56] <webben> because some users want to opt out of it
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# [19:56] <Hixie> why?
# [19:56] <webben> i don't think it matters much
# [19:56] <Hixie> what is the harm here
# [19:56] <Hixie> sure it matters
# [19:57] <Hixie> users and authors want all kinds of crap we don't give them because they say they want it but wouldn't really want it when they get it
# [19:57] <TabAtkins> What users like that want is "no ads", not "shittier ads".
# [19:57] <Hixie> for example users want a way to say "make my packets have priority over everyone else's"
# [19:57] <TabAtkins> If you don't have market segmentation, you are guaranteed to get shittier ads.
# [19:57] <Hixie> pretty much by definition, yeah
# [19:58] <smaug____> there is no such thing as shittier ads
# [19:58] <Hixie> oh my
# [19:58] <Hixie> oh my oh my
# [19:58] <Hixie> yes, there is
# [19:58] * webben has to head to the pub
# [19:58] <TabAtkins> smaug____: You have a short memory. I remember the days before Google got good at serving ads.
# [19:59] * smaug____ doesn't know what "good at serving ads" means
# [19:59] <smaug____> though, I may guess what you mean :)
# [19:59] <Hixie> smaug____: if i get an ad for cheaper subway tickets on the tokyo subway, that's a shittier ad for me than if i get an ad for a good deal on a marklin 37276 Double Diesel Locomotive set
# [20:00] <TabAtkins> You're either being purposely obtuse, or I don't understand how you can possibly say that.
# [20:00] <Hixie> what tab said
# [20:00] <Ms2ger> Hixie, have you unpacked your trains already? :)
# [20:00] <Hixie> ...wow, the 37276 is awesome
# [20:01] <Hixie> now i want one
# [20:01] <Hixie> damnit
# [20:01] * smaug____ hasn't used his Märklins for ages
# [20:01] <TabAtkins> Given the space of all possible ads, with no market segmentation the best you can do is get served an ad uniformly-chosen at random. This is obviously worse than choosing from a smaller set that is more likely to track your demographic segment.
# [20:01] <Hixie> Ms2ger: i have a loop in my bedroom for running the engines every few months so the engines don't seize up, but other than that, no
# [20:02] <smaug____> TabAtkins: for lots of people there is no such thing as good or bad ad. There is just an ad, which the user doesn't care about
# [20:02] <Hixie> dude the 27276 is actually weathered and you can blow it's whistle and it's horn separately
# [20:02] <TabAtkins> smaug____: Okay, then it's the "purposely obtuse" option.
# [20:02] <Hixie> aw man
# [20:03] <Ms2ger> *its
# [20:03] <Ms2ger> You're a real Googler now... Advertising to yourself :)
# [20:03] <Hixie> smaug____: we have data that shows otherwise. the fruits of said data funds much of mozilla, fwiw.
# [20:03] <smaug____> Yeah, googlers speaking about ads... :)
# [20:03] <Philip`> Maybe someone doesn't like being tempted to buy things they were already nearly willing to buy, because they'd like it in the short term (hence they'd acually buy it) but bad in the long term (since they'll have no money left at the end of the month to feed their children), and so they'd much rather be shown irrelevant ads that they can easily ignore
# [20:04] <TabAtkins> Philip`: That's the "no ads" preference.
# [20:04] <Philip`> (and the running costs of the sites they visit will be subsidised by other users who like to buy things from relevant ads)
# [20:05] <TabAtkins> If they want shitty ads because they're easier to ignore, they dont' actually want shitty ads. They just want no ads.
# [20:05] <TabAtkins> Nobody wants ads *and* wants them to be shitty.
# [20:05] <barnabywalters> Philip`: Yep, unless it's happening subconsciously, I can't see anyone actually using that logic
# [20:05] <Philip`> TabAtkins: "No ads" is preferred over "irrelevant ads" which is preferred over "relevant ads", and in practice they'll never be able to get "no ads" because that's too blatantly unprofitable for the people paying the running costs of their sites, and so "irrelevant ads" is the next best thing
# [20:06] <TabAtkins> Philip`: No, that's what AdBlock is for.
# [20:06] <Hixie> smaug____: do you at least agree that an ad can, all other things being equal, be assumed to have been more useful to the user if the user clicks on it than if they don't?
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# [20:08] <smaug____> no, not in general case
# [20:09] <Philip`> Hixie: What about if e.g. you search for "open office" because you want to download it, and get shown an ad like "Download OpenOffice here for free" which you click on because it sounds very useful, and then it installs OpenOffice plus a dozen pieces of other junk (browser toolbars and popup things and trial antiviruses and whatever)?
# [20:09] <Hixie> Philip`: there are certainly exceptions, i agree
# [20:09] <Philip`> Many more people would click on that than on a random irrelevant ad, but it'd far less useful (/more harmful) in practice
# [20:09] <smaug____> "relevant" ads may look like page content and user clicks them although (s)he was going to look for some real content
# [20:09] <Hixie> so could irrelevant ads
# [20:09] <Philip`> (Not a hypothetical example, incidentally)
# [20:11] <Hixie> anyway, if you disagree that a user chosing to click an ad is not a good signal (even if not a 100% reliable signal) that the ad is useful to the user, then i don't see that we have common ground on which to base the conversation
# [20:11] <Philip`> Hixie: Are there ways to measure the effectiveness of ads that can distinguish usefulness from misleadingness?
# [20:11] <smaug____> irrelevant ad is less likely about the same thing what the user was looking for
# [20:11] <smaug____> Philip`: that is interesting question
# [20:11] <Hixie> Philip`: for highly commercial ads you can track conversions (sales)
# [20:11] <Hixie> Philip`: this isn't my area of expertise though
# [20:12] <Philip`> Maybe you could wait a while then send an email to users saying "please give a rating out of 5 for this ad you click on two weeks ago"
# [20:12] <Hixie> smaug____: if a site is its own ad broker, then at a minimum the advertisers will know how to make misleading ads, even without knowing anything about the users
# [20:12] <smaug____> my experience with my parents for example is that they use Google and click easily some ads and then need to go back and look for real search results
# [20:12] <Philip`> like what Amazon often seems to do with reviewing products/suppliers
# [20:12] <Hixie> Philip`: for things like openoffice malware, even that wouldn't work
# [20:13] <Philip`> where they seem to leave enough time for people to recognise any faults with the thing they just bought
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# [20:14] <Hixie> yeah for highly commercial queries/ads/purchases it works much better, because users tend to have a much clearer understanding and memory that a transaction happened
# [20:14] <Philip`> (If you just track number of sales then you can't tell how many people regretted it afterwards)
# [20:15] <Philip`> (If you're the company making the sales, you probably don't care, because a sale is a sale, but if you're a third party then you probably want to take better care of the users)
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# [22:51] <rafaelw_> Hixie: would E4H support different tokenizer modes?
# [22:51] <rafaelw_> e.g. var foo = <><div/><script>var i = 2;</script></>;
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# [23:38] <Hixie> rafaelw_: text is basically parsed as a JS string in my proposal
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# [23:39] <rafaelw_> so presumably the following parses very differently in HTML and E4H...
# [23:39] <rafaelw_> <div><style><div></div></style></div>
# [23:39] <rafaelw_> ?
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# [23:40] <Hixie> it parses more like in xml, yes
# [23:40] <Hixie> it's javascript
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# [23:40] <rafaelw_> i'm less familiar with XML.
# [23:40] <Hixie> and my parsing spec for it is like 20 lines
# [23:40] <Hixie> so it's hardly surprising that it doesn't parse like html, whose spec is some 5000 lines :-)
# [23:41] <rafaelw_> in the above example, in E4H will <style> have one child which is a <div> element?
# [23:41] <rafaelw_> i'm not commenting, just trying to understand.
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# [23:51] <Hixie> rafaelw_: yes
# [23:52] <Hixie> rafaelw_: at least as proposed. i don't really care what the exact syntax is, it could even be something like JSON for all I care, what i care about is (1) that it be simpler than the current DOM API and (2) that it be compile-time checked, like a JS object literal.
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# [23:53] <Hixie> i think the parallel between JS object literals and JSON strings vs HTML DOM literals ("E4H") and HTML strings is the way to think about this proposal
# [23:54] <Hixie> JSON's syntax isn't exactly like JS object literals either
# [23:54] <Hixie> e.g. { foo: 1 } isn't valid (key has to be quoted), nor is { 'foo': '1' } (has to be double quotes, iirc)
# Session Close: Sat Jun 02 00:00:01 2012

The end :)