/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-06-03 / end

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  126. # [10:26] <annevk> Hixie: so I'm still not quite sure how to modify http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/fullscreen/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#new-stacking-layer
  127. # [10:26] <annevk> it already has
  128. # [10:27] <annevk> * It generates a new stacking context.
  129. # [10:27] <annevk> * Its containing block is the initial containing block.
  130. # [10:27] <annevk> * It is rendered as an atomic unit as if it were a sibling of the root element.
  131. # [10:30] <annevk> I'll make a suggestion
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  133. # [10:37] <annevk> lol
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  135. # [10:37] <annevk> someone is suggesting a separate mailing list for fullscreen
  136. # [10:38] <annevk> joint WG publications, token editor to please the CSS WG, W3C backflips the shark
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  145. # [11:01] <annevk> <!DOCTYPE html>.<script> document.documentElement.replaceChild(document.head, document.body) </script>
  146. # [11:02] <annevk> results in <html><head/></html>
  147. # [11:02] <annevk> so I try to replace <head> with <body> and end up with <head>
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  149. # [11:04] <annevk> and <body> is returned
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  151. # [11:07] <annevk> oops nm
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  228. # [15:01] <Ms2ger> annevk, yt?
  229. # [15:02] <Ms2ger> Or AryehGregor
  230. # [15:04] <Ms2ger> Looking at http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-node-replace
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  232. # [15:05] <Ms2ger> It seems the 3rd step is redundant, because we already established that /parent/ has a child, so it must be a Document, DocumentFragment, or Element
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  236. # [15:17] <fflorent> Hi,
  237. # [15:17] <fflorent> what is the reason why this proposal has been gave up? http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-October/023702.html
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  240. # [15:29] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, yes, you're right. Looks redundant to me.
  241. # [15:45] <AryehGregor> fflorent, IIRC, because it's too hard and fragile and will never give you the flexibility of AJAX, so it's not clear anyone much would use it..
  242. # [15:45] <AryehGregor> s/\.$//
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  244. # [15:49] <fflorent> AryehGregor: hmm, why hard and fragile ?
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  249. # [16:03] <AryehGregor> fflorent, I don't remember the details. It was two and a half years ago. Basically, it wasn't clear that it was useful enough (relative to emulating it with AJAX) to warrant a new declarative attribute.
  250. # [16:03] <AryehGregor> I still think it was a cool idea, though. :)
  251. # [16:04] <fflorent> AryehGregor: thank you for your answer :)
  252. # [16:05] <fflorent> AryehGregor: I ask this question because I have a similar proposition ... And I want to know what was the matter with that proposition before.
  253. # [16:06] <AryehGregor> fflorent, did you review the whole original thread?
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  255. # [16:08] <fflorent> I read it, but perhaps there are things I have not read
  256. # [16:08] <AryehGregor> fflorent, everything starting with this? http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-October/023661.html
  257. # [16:08] <fflorent> I see that there are previous messages in the thread from here : http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-October/023702.html .
  258. # [16:08] <fflorent> But I do not know how to access
  259. # [16:09] <AryehGregor> There are a few dozen posts, many quite long.
  260. # [16:09] <AryehGregor> Try looking at what I just posted, and all the followups.
  261. # [16:09] <AryehGregor> A lot of possible variants and pitfalls are pointed out.
  262. # [16:09] <fflorent> thank you :)
  263. # [16:10] <AryehGregor> All the variants wind up failing in unpleasant ways if misued.
  264. # [16:10] <AryehGregor> misused.
  265. # [16:10] <fflorent> hmm, ok
  266. # [16:11] <AryehGregor> And it's not straightforward for authors to make sure they use them right.
  267. # [16:11] <AryehGregor> It would be pretty easy to update one page and forget to update another and suddenly things don't work right.
  268. # [16:11] <AryehGregor> So at a certain point it looks like it's not worth the resources. New markup like that is only worthwhile if it would be really useful.
  269. # [16:15] <fflorent> what do you mean by "update one page and forget to update another" ?
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  276. # [16:37] <fflorent> AryehGregor: I read that using query parameters break bookmarking. However, I just bookmarked a result page from google (on Firefox) and it worked great. I do not understand why does it breaks bookmarking ? (sorry for my noob questions ^^ )
  277. # [16:37] <fflorent> AryehGregor: source : http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-October/023686.html
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  324. # [18:30] <tantek> sorry to be "token" for too long annevk
  325. # [18:30] <tantek> now that I've got hg and Anolis setup - hope to make more contributions soon
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  336. # [19:39] <annevk> tantek: no worries
  337. # [19:39] <annevk> although maybe I should start keeping a wiki page on W3C fuckups
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  339. # [19:48] <veosotano> annevk: what would you say is the W3C's biggest problem as an organization?
  340. # [19:51] <veosotano> I wonder if the slowness is something about how it is structured
  341. # [19:54] <annevk> too much rules
  342. # [19:55] <veosotano> but without those rules, wouldn't quality of standards suffer?
  343. # [19:55] <veosotano> (just curious)
  344. # [19:55] <annevk> not in my experience
  345. # [19:55] <veosotano> is there no proposal to improve the efficiency of the w3c or something?
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  347. # [19:55] <annevk> standards can be of extremely high and low quality; both with and without those rules
  348. # [19:56] <annevk> (and have been)
  349. # [19:56] <annevk> veosotano: sure sure, but it's slow as is to be expected of an organization with 400+ stakeholders
  350. # [19:56] <veosotano> I guess it would be difficult to put on paper (sort of like rules), something that ensures the quality
  351. # [19:57] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Howto_spec has a start as far as writing goes
  352. # [19:57] <veosotano> oh, cool
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  355. # [19:58] <veosotano> I'll bookmark his
  356. # [19:58] <veosotano> *this
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  358. # [19:59] <veosotano> thanks!
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  361. # [20:00] <veosotano> annevk: have you ever heard of the AXR Project?
  362. # [20:00] <annevk> nope
  363. # [20:00] <veosotano> if so, what is your opinion?
  364. # [20:00] <veosotano> ok
  365. # [20:00] <veosotano> I'm the founder of that project
  366. # [20:01] <veosotano> I could give you a link to the video of the presentation
  367. # [20:01] <veosotano> it's 50 mins long if you have spare time
  368. # [20:01] <thisgeek> veosotano: it may be instructive, as it was for me today, to read through a summary of how the w3c HTML working group comes to a decision. Here's an example: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Mar/0574.html
  369. # [20:01] <veosotano> if not, I could give you an introduction
  370. # [20:02] <veosotano> thisgeek: thank you very much :)
  371. # [20:02] <veosotano> looks very bureaucratic, btw
  372. # [20:03] <Ms2ger> You may want to read http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2012Jan/0338.html too
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  374. # [20:06] <annevk> Ms2ger: hadn't seen that before
  375. # [20:06] <veosotano> I think he's right
  376. # [20:07] <annevk> yeah, the HTML WG is a joke
  377. # [20:07] <annevk> it's one of the fuckups
  378. # [20:07] <veosotano> so how does it work effectively?
  379. # [20:07] <veosotano> does webkit follow what the whatwg specs?
  380. # [20:08] <thisgeek> veosotano: As I read it, the process not only invites comment and objections, but takes care to address and assess the quality of those objections. I wonder if that's connected to the peer review process that submissions for academic journals are put through.
  381. # [20:08] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith mentioned it in here once, but without a URL
  382. # [20:09] <veosotano> thisgeek: do you think that those objects are effective to remove the bureaucracy that is slowing it down so much?
  383. # [20:09] <annevk> veosotano: yeah they do
  384. # [20:09] <veosotano> what does the HTMLWG do, then?
  385. # [20:10] <thisgeek> But I think there is a good arguement in "there's just too many stakeholders". I think Kris Kowal has some experience deal with this in regard to the growing interest in CommonJS.
  386. # [20:11] <thisgeek> veosotano: Are the objections effective? I honestly don't know yet.
  387. # [20:11] <veosotano> there have been many objections over the years, we're still at the same pace :S
  388. # [20:13] <veosotano> annevk: the axr project is about creating an alternative to current web standards, I'd like to tell you more about it if you want, but I completely understand if you are too busy
  389. # [20:15] <gsnedders> veosotano: Yet you don't know how current web standards come about?
  390. # [20:15] <veosotano> well I do from a designer/developer perspective
  391. # [20:15] <veosotano> I didn't know the exact process used internally
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  393. # [20:16] <gsnedders> veosotano: If you're trying to come up with anything new, remember that for all practical purposes, impls have a veto. You can put what you like in the spec if you get consensus on it, but if impls don't impl it, it's meaningless.
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  395. # [20:17] <annevk> veosotano: I read the site a bit
  396. # [20:17] <Ms2ger> It sounds like XHTML2 to me
  397. # [20:17] <veosotano> it's not
  398. # [20:17] <veosotano> I wonder why so many jump to that conclusion so fast
  399. # [20:18] <annevk> veosotano: looks like a cool project, but I don't think that's gonna work (otherwise I'd be working on something similar :) )
  400. # [20:18] <veosotano> gsnedders: it's not about a spec, but about an actual implementation
  401. # [20:18] <veosotano> the prototype already does most of the new features in the HSS language
  402. # [20:18] <veosotano> annevk: well I invite you to do so :)
  403. # [20:19] <veosotano> please watch the video
  404. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> When I read "replacing the current web technology with something done better, based on XML", I'm afraid "XHTML2" is the first thing to pop into my mind
  405. # [20:19] <veosotano> and think about if I'm saying completely absurd things (which I don't think they are) I sincerely apologize :)
  406. # [20:19] <annevk> veosotano: also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoculture_(computer_science)
  407. # [20:19] <veosotano> Ms2ger: we want to use XML only as a thin data layer
  408. # [20:19] * carbonix is now known as carbonix|away
  409. # [20:20] <thisgeek> veosotano: I suspect your biggest hurtle will be working with browser vendors to get it implemented. Do you think that's correct?
  410. # [20:20] <annevk> veosotano: it's a positive thing we have multiple engines today
  411. # [20:20] <veosotano> thisgeek: the plan is not to have browsers implement it
  412. # [20:20] <veosotano> annevk: but it's a hell for a developer
  413. # [20:20] <veosotano> fragmentation is a big problem
  414. # [20:20] <annevk> hell is IE6
  415. # [20:20] <annevk> or WebKit mobile
  416. # [20:20] <gsnedders> veosotano: IE6 was a monoculture, was that good for developers?
  417. # [20:21] <gsnedders> veosotano: Is WebKit on iOS and Android being so outdated good for developers?
  418. # [20:21] <veosotano> the problem is actually that there is no part of the language that allows for control over how implementations advance
  419. # [20:21] <veosotano> there can be no infinite forwards and backwards compatibility
  420. # [20:21] <veosotano> with zillions of implementations
  421. # [20:21] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  422. # [20:22] <gsnedders> In what sense?
  423. # [20:22] <veosotano> the rendering engines have no knowledge about what the developer meant when he wrote the code
  424. # [20:22] <veosotano> it's just whatever its put out there
  425. # [20:22] * Ms2ger goes back to writing tests
  426. # [20:22] <veosotano> since browsers just implement whatever the heck they want
  427. # [20:23] <gsnedders> How do you get rid of dependence on browsers without impacting performance?
  428. # [20:23] <veosotano> Ms2ger: I don't believe xHTML2 died because of XML
  429. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> Oh, I don't either
  430. # [20:24] <veosotano> gsnedders: wait, do you mean in rendering performance?
  431. # [20:24] <annevk> veosotano: don't let us tell you too much about how your ideas are improbable; that's not the way to success :)
  432. # [20:24] <gsnedders> veosotano: General performance
  433. # [20:24] <gsnedders> veosotano: Including but not limited to rendering perf
  434. # [20:25] <veosotano> gsnedders: you need native speed
  435. # [20:25] <veosotano> if possible with HW acceleration
  436. # [20:25] <gsnedders> veosotano: How do you get that in a secure manner, while having all browsers improving at a constant rate?
  437. # [20:25] <veosotano> the project proposes to create a new rendering engine… which is native code
  438. # [20:25] <veosotano> because it's an open source project
  439. # [20:25] <gsnedders> veosotano: And what makes you think Apple will ship that on iOS, for example?
  440. # [20:25] * Parts: mamund (mamund@dereferenced.nullpointer.net)
  441. # [20:26] <veosotano> security problems can be analyzed and fixed in the community
  442. # [20:26] <veosotano> iOS is actually the hardest nut to crack
  443. # [20:26] <veosotano> but we'll try to create an application
  444. # [20:26] <gsnedders> You won't get it on the App Store if you want JS execution at all.
  445. # [20:27] <veosotano> so there is no way of getting it to work in safari, but it could redirect through the use of custom protocols, like instapaper does
  446. # [20:27] <veosotano> gnsedders: can JavascriptCore not be used?
  447. # [20:27] <veosotano> that would be a problem indeed
  448. # [20:27] <gsnedders> veosotano: But then you'll have differences between engines.
  449. # [20:27] <veosotano> point taken :(
  450. # [20:27] <veosotano> damn rules
  451. # [20:28] <gsnedders> veosotano: Also, how can something be a true standard if there's only one implmenetation of it?
  452. # [20:28] <veosotano> correct me if I'm wrong, but I think interoperability between JS engines (in modern browsers) is way superior to css support, for example
  453. # [20:29] <veosotano> gsnedders: well that depends on how you define the term standard
  454. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> Well
  455. # [20:29] <veosotano> webkit is a de facto standard today
  456. # [20:29] <gsnedders> veosotano: If it's a standard then others will want to try and make a better implementation, in all probability
  457. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> The ECMAScript spec has historically been better than the CSS specifications
  458. # [20:29] <veosotano> why not improving the existing one?
  459. # [20:30] <veosotano> I mean the existing implementation
  460. # [20:30] <gsnedders> veosotano: Why are there multiple impls of HTML/CSS/etc.?
  461. # [20:30] <veosotano> it should benefit the whole platform
  462. # [20:30] <veosotano> because of business interests
  463. # [20:30] <gsnedders> If you think it's just business interests, you're wrong.
  464. # [20:31] <veosotano> then please set me right :)
  465. # [20:31] * Joins: krit (~krit@c-24-6-231-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  466. # [20:31] <gsnedders> It would be a massive financial saving for people not to be developing four browser engines.
  467. # [20:31] <veosotano> I think the only good thing of Flash was that it worked the same everywhere (everything else was horrible)
  468. # [20:33] <thisgeek> Ms2ger: I couldn't resist asking, since I am working on a presentation about this right now, but why do you think XHTML2 failed, if not because of XML.
  469. # [20:33] <thisgeek> ?
  470. # [20:33] <gsnedders> Different browsers have different technical pros and cons, like different trade-offs between performance and memory usage, and differences in whether they handle OOM in all places.
  471. # [20:34] <veosotano> gsnedders: that's precisely what makes webdevelopment so hard
  472. # [20:34] <gsnedders> veosotano: Because performance varies?
  473. # [20:34] <veosotano> for example
  474. # [20:34] <veosotano> there are many presentations out there talking about how to improve performance
  475. # [20:34] <gsnedders> veosotano: Performance on a smartphone will never *ever* be the same as on a desktop computer.
  476. # [20:34] <veosotano> I know that, of course
  477. # [20:35] <gsnedders> And if you're running on a TV with 128MB RAM, you need to be concervative of memory, even if that means being slower.
  478. # [20:35] <veosotano> what is the benefit of having all the differences in those trade offs?
  479. # [20:35] <gsnedders> Being able to run on lower-end devices v. higher performance on more powerful devices.
  480. # [20:36] <veosotano> ok, I get that there are differences in the platforms
  481. # [20:36] <veosotano> and maybe saying the exact same implementation is a bit of an oversimplification
  482. # [20:36] <gsnedders> As soon as you have variation in the impls, you have the same problems as we have now.
  483. # [20:36] <veosotano> of course different tradeoffs will be necessary to make to make it run well everywhere
  484. # [20:36] <veosotano> no
  485. # [20:36] <veosotano> because todays differences are not about that
  486. # [20:36] <veosotano> they are about differences in syntax
  487. # [20:37] <veosotano> differences in decisions that were not specd
  488. # [20:37] <veosotano> legacy compatibility
  489. # [20:37] <gsnedders> HTML5, the quirks mode spec are all about unifying that for legacy compatibility.
  490. # [20:37] <veosotano> there needs to be a concensus about what are the pixels that show up on the screen for a given code
  491. # [20:38] <gsnedders> And this was pretty HTML5's original primary goal.
  492. # [20:38] <veosotano> gsnedders: in no way I'm arguing the whatwg is doing a poor job
  493. # [20:38] <veosotano> what I'm arguing is that HTML is not good for the future
  494. # [20:38] <veosotano> I'd love it if you would watch the presentation and then gave me your opinion again
  495. # [20:39] <gsnedders> veosotano: Why? I'm still not clear. Differences in rendering? But the whole point of most of spec work atm is to have identical rendering.
  496. # [20:39] <veosotano> well it's not translating into reality
  497. # [20:39] * Quits: GlitchMr (~glitchmr@178-36-165-233.adsl.inetia.pl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  498. # [20:40] <veosotano> for example on a desktop, what is the benefit of having multiple ways of doing the same thing?
  499. # [20:40] <Ms2ger> Oh look, a [Hixie-P4] bug from 1998 just got WONTFIXed
  500. # [20:40] <veosotano> why not all together figure out what is the *best* way of doing something?
  501. # [20:41] <gsnedders> veosotano: Give me one example where that has happened?
  502. # [20:41] <veosotano> that experts have joined together and decided the best solution to a problem?
  503. # [20:41] <veosotano> ECMAScript has worked pretty well
  504. # [20:42] <veosotano> I mean ECMA
  505. # [20:42] <gsnedders> Without having one implementation.
  506. # [20:42] <veosotano> I don't follow...
  507. # [20:42] <veosotano> we have an implementation
  508. # [20:42] <gsnedders> There are multiple ECMAScript impls.
  509. # [20:42] <Ms2ger> thisgeek, because browser implementors had no interest in supporting XHTML2
  510. # [20:44] <veosotano> gsnedders: I think it hasn't happened, but that doesn't mean it couldn't
  511. # [20:44] <veosotano> and btw, we have no other thing that is equal to the internet
  512. # [20:44] <veosotano> I think it is for the benefit of the whole internet
  513. # [20:44] <veosotano> I don't want to make money off of it
  514. # [20:45] * Quits: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron) (Quit: Leaving.)
  515. # [20:45] <veosotano> well maybe not internet…
  516. # [20:45] <veosotano> I mean for the web
  517. # [20:45] <veosotano> the application delivery system we have
  518. # [20:45] * Parts: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@host-78-145-141-4.as13285.net)
  519. # [20:46] <veosotano> I agree about the dangers of monoculture
  520. # [20:46] <veosotano> but historically those monocultures were in the hands of private businesses
  521. # [20:46] <veosotano> not in something that is open sourced and meant for the greater good
  522. # [20:47] <gsnedders> veosotano: WebKit is open source and the monoculture on mobile is very much a problem.
  523. # [20:47] <veosotano> what are those problems exactly?
  524. # [20:47] * Quits: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  525. # [20:47] <veosotano> I'm honestly interseted
  526. # [20:47] <veosotano> *interested
  527. # [20:48] <gsnedders> veosotano: Mobile sites relying upon WebKit bugs, mobile sites relying upon -webkit-.
  528. # [20:48] <veosotano> would those be problems if webkit was the only implementation?
  529. # [20:49] <gsnedders> Yes, because the sites would still be relying upon something that differs to the standard.
  530. # [20:49] <gsnedders> Unless the WebKit code base was the standard and hence, by definition, had no bugs.
  531. # [20:49] <veosotano> if the ones that create the standard and the implementations are the same organization
  532. # [20:49] <veosotano> nono
  533. # [20:49] <veosotano> there is no way of having no bugs
  534. # [20:49] <veosotano> bugs will always happen
  535. # [20:49] <veosotano> you need to find a way to manage them
  536. # [20:49] <gsnedders> veosotano: Then there is no way to stop websites from relying upon bugs in the implementation
  537. # [20:50] <annevk> and you need competition to avoid having sites rely on bugs
  538. # [20:50] <veosotano> that's because people don't code to specification
  539. # [20:50] <benvie> it means when you try to make something with different ideas you have to not only get over the normal hurdle of producing something that is good enough quality, but you also have to get over the hurdle of entrenched adherence to proprietary bugs. Proprietary in the sense that it's a specific implementation, even if open source
  540. # [20:50] <veosotano> they code to implementation
  541. # [20:50] <veosotano> they don't differ between bug and feature
  542. # [20:50] <gsnedders> veosotano: How do you get people to code to specs? People tend to hack stuff together till it work, specs be damned.
  543. # [20:50] <veosotano> annevk: I don't think that's the only way
  544. # [20:50] * Quits: krit (~krit@c-24-6-231-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  545. # [20:51] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@guest.opera.com) (Quit: annevk)
  546. # [20:51] <gsnedders> veosotano: Once you have sites relying upon bugs, you have to change the spec to the impl, so the spec may as well be the impl.
  547. # [20:51] <benvie> the webkit on mobile thing is helping to prove beyond a bout that it is in fact true, if we didn't know it already
  548. # [20:51] <gsnedders> veosotano: Equally, if you have a single impl, what do you gain by having a separate spec?
  549. # [20:51] <veosotano> gsnedders: that's only if there is no way of managing that
  550. # [20:51] <gsnedders> veosotano: People management won't work.
  551. # [20:52] <veosotano> what I mean is that the current web is versionless
  552. # [20:52] <veosotano> and then yes, you have no way to manage bugs
  553. # [20:52] <veosotano> and less so in such an hostile environment as todays browsers
  554. # [20:52] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.193.125.getinternet.no)
  555. # [20:52] <benvie> competition still sparks ongoing impetus for improvement between the players in the field
  556. # [20:53] <veosotano> I don't think the community stalls like a business does
  557. # [20:53] <veosotano> think about it
  558. # [20:53] <veosotano> business don't care
  559. # [20:53] <veosotano> if they won with their monoculture
  560. # [20:53] <veosotano> they'll stop spending resources
  561. # [20:53] <gsnedders> You still need buisnesses to ship it, ultimately.
  562. # [20:53] <veosotano> why?
  563. # [20:53] <gsnedders> veosotano: How do you get on iOS?
  564. # [20:54] <veosotano> damn apple rules again
  565. # [20:54] <gsnedders> veosotano: How do you market it to end users
  566. # [20:54] <gsnedders> *?
  567. # [20:54] <veosotano> that's a better question
  568. # [20:54] <veosotano> for the end users it will have many benefits
  569. # [20:54] <veosotano> such as faster and better pages (in average)
  570. # [20:54] <veosotano> because of the productivity increase
  571. # [20:54] <veosotano> more budget can be allocated on polishing the fine details
  572. # [20:55] <gsnedders> What budget?
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  574. # [20:55] * Joins: Funcod (~Miranda@127.172.67.86.rev.sfr.net)
  575. # [20:55] <veosotano> what clients of a web design firm pay them to create a website
  576. # [20:55] <veosotano> or a web application
  577. # [20:56] <gsnedders> Oh, right.
  578. # [20:56] <gsnedders> You mean for that, not for developing the browser.
  579. # [20:56] <gsnedders> veosotano: In reality, clients will pay less.
  580. # [20:56] <Funcod> oh gsnedders
  581. # [20:56] <Funcod> remember me from habari?
  582. # [20:56] <gsnedders> Funcod: Oh you.
  583. # [20:56] <Funcod> :)
  584. # [20:56] <veosotano> I beg to disagree
  585. # [20:56] <gsnedders> Funcod: Vaguely.
  586. # [20:56] <gsnedders> Funcod: It's been too long since I've been around there much. :P
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  590. # [20:57] <Funcod> np mike told me you were involved with the w3
  591. # [20:59] <veosotano> gsnedders: do you think current tools are really great?
  592. # [21:00] <veosotano> I mean I can understand if you believe that we will not succeed… but are you saying that there is no problem?
  593. # [21:00] <gsnedders> veosotano: No. Do I think we're slowly moving towards somewhere better with the WHATWG and others? Yes.
  594. # [21:01] <gsnedders> Do I think a monoculture is a solution? No.
  595. # [21:01] <gsnedders> I'd say a monoculture is actively far worse than what we have today.
  596. # [21:01] <veosotano> even if it is a non-proprietary one?
  597. # [21:01] <gsnedders> Yes.
  598. # [21:01] <veosotano> where the presence of bugs is managed?
  599. # [21:02] <veosotano> I'd agree that a monoculture of one of today's engines is bad
  600. # [21:02] <gsnedders> I don't think such a think *can* viably be managed.
  601. # [21:02] <veosotano> but I believe that there would be value in starting something new, something better, collaborating instead of fighting
  602. # [21:03] <veosotano> gsnedders: I think it can' as long as it's a monoculture :P
  603. # [21:03] <veosotano> (remove that ' )
  604. # [21:03] <veosotano> I think it can
  605. # [21:03] <gsnedders> In reality, your biggest challenge will be getting it anywhere, and getting anything in way of users.
  606. # [21:03] <veosotano> I agree
  607. # [21:03] <veosotano> but I'm going to sell it to devs first
  608. # [21:04] <veosotano> and all of the people I've spoken to have agreed on that it would be a way better language
  609. # [21:04] <gsnedders> I'd say Linux practically has a monoculture on *nix-like operating systems.
  610. # [21:04] <gsnedders> I wouldn't say people follow the POSIX spec as a result.
  611. # [21:04] <veosotano> they follow the implementation
  612. # [21:04] <veosotano> that's what I argue
  613. # [21:05] <veosotano> there is no way to make people to follow a spec
  614. # [21:05] <veosotano> they will hack for the implementation
  615. # [21:05] <veosotano> it's just a fact
  616. # [21:05] <gsnedders> Agreed.
  617. # [21:05] <veosotano> that's why if there is *the* implementation
  618. # [21:05] <veosotano> it can be managed
  619. # [21:05] <veosotano> otherwise we would need to rely on spec
  620. # [21:05] <gsnedders> By making backwards incompatible changes to match the spec?
  621. # [21:05] <veosotano> with versioning it's possible
  622. # [21:05] <gsnedders> Even if major sites rely upon it?
  623. # [21:06] <veosotano> your new Photoshop can open older files just fine
  624. # [21:06] <veosotano> because it knows its version
  625. # [21:06] <gsnedders> Will you update the spec for the previous version to match the impl of the older version?
  626. # [21:06] <veosotano> update both things
  627. # [21:06] <gsnedders> Because the way *really* bad things start happening is when the two diverge.
  628. # [21:06] <veosotano> and provide backwards compatibility modules
  629. # [21:06] <veosotano> so that older documents are rendered as they were meant to
  630. # [21:06] <veosotano> by the older engine
  631. # [21:07] <gsnedders> And how do you stop that from becoming unmanagable with the number of bug-modes?
  632. # [21:07] <veosotano> well because I don't believe in infinite backwards compatibility
  633. # [21:07] <veosotano> I don't expect 1.0 versions to work with engine 25.0
  634. # [21:07] <Funcod> gsnedders : you should our @support
  635. # [21:07] <veosotano> at some point support needs to be dropped
  636. # [21:08] <Funcod> it permits us to be futur proof whatever happens
  637. # [21:08] <gsnedders> Modern browsers *still* support stuff marked as obsolete in the very very first draft HTML specification.
  638. # [21:08] <veosotano> and I *still* don't know why
  639. # [21:08] <gsnedders> Because websites break, and users complain.
  640. # [21:08] <Funcod> because they are millions of legacy pages
  641. # [21:08] <gsnedders> Users want websites to work.
  642. # [21:08] <veosotano> people also want the web to move forward
  643. # [21:08] <veosotano> those two goals are exclusive
  644. # [21:09] <Funcod> yes but angry ppl pester loudly
  645. # [21:09] <veosotano> btw, as I said, we would render the older versions as they rendered when it came out
  646. # [21:09] <gsnedders> veosotano: Are they? I'd argue they aren't. Is HTML5 failing that horrifically at moving the web forward? Is CSS3 failing?
  647. # [21:09] <veosotano> only very very very old stuff would break
  648. # [21:09] <veosotano> I'd say it is
  649. # [21:10] <veosotano> why are native apps so much better?
  650. # [21:10] <Funcod> gsnedders : did you check the recent prefix mess?
  651. # [21:10] <Funcod> opera wanna use -webkit etc
  652. # [21:10] * Quits: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  653. # [21:10] <matzipan> gsnedders: yeah, opera's use of -webkit is the latest and greatest fail of css3
  654. # [21:11] <gsnedders> Funcod: That's one specific failing of the CSS WG. People were saying this would happen years ago. MS implemented WebKit prefixes years ago, and are talking about doing so again; likewise is Mozilla.
  655. # [21:11] <Funcod> (which was introduced by microsoft first)
  656. # [21:11] <matzipan> So not only there is a standard, but there is also something like a unwritten standard of -webkit
  657. # [21:12] * Quits: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba) (Quit: leaving)
  658. # [21:12] <Funcod> ppl checking these properties with JS to detect vertain version of a browser
  659. # [21:12] <Funcod> will be really surprised
  660. # [21:12] <Funcod> *certain
  661. # [21:12] <matzipan> But CSS3 is still a fail. Seriously. What else is there apart for some rgba and transforms eyecandy?
  662. # [21:13] <matzipan> Is it really fixing the problems in CSS2?
  663. # [21:13] <matzipan> You can do your job just fine, agreed. But it isn't really what it should be like
  664. # [21:13] <gsnedders> matzipan: What do you see as the problems?
  665. # [21:13] <Funcod> I like CSS3 columns BUT they didn't implement break
  666. # [21:13] <Funcod> so it's partially good
  667. # [21:13] <matzipan> gsnedders: do you really want me to start this discussion?:D
  668. # [21:14] <veosotano> this could take a while :)
  669. # [21:14] <gsnedders> matzipan: No, I just want a short list to see in what ways CSS3 fails to address them. :)
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  673. # [21:14] <veosotano> I'll give you 7
  674. # [21:14] <Funcod> gsnedders : take wrapping
  675. # [21:14] <gsnedders> (I mean, I can think of plenty of issues with CSS 2.1, but that doesn't mean they're the same of what you think of. :))
  676. # [21:14] <Funcod> you are going back and forth
  677. # [21:15] <Funcod> trying to hack your way to be backward compatible
  678. # [21:15] <Funcod> (text wrapping)
  679. # [21:15] <veosotano> the html is a mixture of structure, presentation and behavior
  680. # [21:15] <matzipan> veosotano: well, let's leave this for a while, and just talk about CSS3
  681. # [21:16] <veosotano> I'd argue that's css's fault
  682. # [21:16] <veosotano> in HSS we will have structure tools
  683. # [21:16] <veosotano> and the behavior is called from the presentation layer
  684. # [21:16] <gsnedders> It's not really CSS's fault when CSS didn't exist when most presentational markup was added to HTML :)
  685. # [21:16] <veosotano> that doesn't make it good
  686. # [21:16] <gsnedders> No, it doesn't make it good.
  687. # [21:17] <veosotano> I know that most of the problems are legacy stuff
  688. # [21:17] <matzipan> gsnedders:so CSS fixes some problems.. but the base problem is still there. How are you supposed to do pure presentation stuff with CSS?
  689. # [21:17] <veosotano> that's exactly why we're proposing to start fresh
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  694. # [21:18] <Ms2ger> document.replaceChild(document.createTextNode("text"), document.documentElement);
  695. # [21:18] <Ms2ger> Enjoy
  696. # [21:18] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Go away.
  697. # [21:19] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: HierarchyError, no?
  698. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> In WebKit, yes
  699. # [21:19] <matzipan> that seems so nasty I'm not even going to run it
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  701. # [21:19] * Parts: Ragnis (543239bf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.50.57.191)
  702. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> In Gecko, document.childNodes == [doctype, text node]
  703. # [21:19] <Funcod> nothing nasty he's using a textNode
  704. # [21:19] <Funcod> that's unusual
  705. # [21:19] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Can we please standardize WebKit's behaviour, then?
  706. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> In Opera? I dunno, DragonFly hates me
  707. # [21:20] * Joins: Ragnis (543239bf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.50.57.191)
  708. # [21:20] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, lucky you, we already did :)
  709. # [21:20] <gsnedders> Who does Dragonfly not hate?
  710. # [21:20] <Funcod> Ms2ger : you are working on webkit?
  711. # [21:20] <Funcod> *are you
  712. # [21:20] <Ms2ger> I work on Gecko
  713. # [21:20] <matzipan> gsnedders: who uses it/
  714. # [21:20] <Funcod> oh nvm then I had a bug for them
  715. # [21:21] <gsnedders> matzipan: The base problem being HTML has presentational stuff? Is that still an issue if you don't use it, and when it does exist, it's behaviour can entirely be described using CSS?
  716. # [21:22] * Philip` finds it odd that http://axr.vg/about/features claims to be "Starting completely from scratch" but seems to end up as basically HTML+XML+CSS plus syntactic sugar
  717. # [21:22] <veosotano> with behavior you mean what it does or how it looks?
  718. # [21:22] <Funcod> there are lot of example of attempts of behaviour in CSS
  719. # [21:22] <Funcod> most failed
  720. # [21:22] <matzipan> Philip`: where did you see any html in axr?
  721. # [21:22] <Ms2ger> IE10 seems to match WebKit
  722. # [21:22] <Ms2ger> Phew
  723. # [21:22] <Philip`> If you're going to go through the pain of migrating the web to an incompatible new platform, surely you should make much more fundamental improvements to it
  724. # [21:22] <veosotano> Philip`: doesn't say trying to take good ideas from current standards?
  725. # [21:22] <gsnedders> veosotano: I mean its behavioural sffects on layout.
  726. # [21:22] <gsnedders> *affects
  727. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> effects?
  728. # [21:23] <veosotano> gsnedders: the problem is that they're not independent layers
  729. # [21:23] <veosotano> the document is deeply linked one to the other
  730. # [21:23] <veosotano> many techniques require adding html tags
  731. # [21:23] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: I will hate you so much soon.
  732. # [21:23] <veosotano> which is completely wrong in my view
  733. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> Soon?
  734. # [21:24] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: By "soon" I mean a year ago.
  735. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> Better :)
  736. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> Huh
  737. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> DragonFly is getting rather confused...
  738. # [21:24] <veosotano> Philip`: what would be those improvements?
  739. # [21:24] <gsnedders> veosotano: Without going for a full templating language, it's hard to avoid that issue.
  740. # [21:25] <fflorent> I have a naive question about CSS, that may be irrelevant, but why isn't there a prefix named "-experimental" for CSS 3 experimental feature, that every vendor would support? And the vendor prefixes are kept, for the case when the user (webmaster) finds differences between browser implementations.
  741. # [21:25] <matzipan> Philip`: well, it's not impossible, and if you start by saying "it's not going to work", where would we be now?
  742. # [21:25] <fflorent> so the problem with "-webkit" would disappear with time
  743. # [21:25] <veosotano> gsnedders: I think the tools in HSS do solve that issue
  744. # [21:26] * Quits: sarspazam (~sarspazam@95.148.192.149) (Quit: sarspazam)
  745. # [21:26] <veosotano> it's not just like a preprocessor like SASS
  746. # [21:26] <matzipan> fflorent: every rule is made to be broken, we would end up with -webkit-experimental :P
  747. # [21:26] <Philip`> matzipan: The syntax in the examples looks different, but it still seems to use the same basic concepts of semantic documents and stylesheets etc, which don't seem like a natural fit for the web apps that everyone wants to do nowadays
  748. # [21:26] <matzipan> fflorent: there would still need stanradizing
  749. # [21:27] <gsnedders> Yeah, what matzipan said.
  750. # [21:27] <Philip`> (It seems hugely closer to HTML than to e.g. Flash)
  751. # [21:27] <gsnedders> X-* elsewhere in the web platform has the same problem.
  752. # [21:27] <veosotano> Philip`: isn't that a good thing?
  753. # [21:28] <Philip`> (Not saying that Flash is better, just that HTML surely can't be the only or best approach)
  754. # [21:28] * Quits: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  755. # [21:28] <fflorent> matzipan: that is sad and dirty :(
  756. # [21:28] <matzipan> Philip`: the only similarity is see is that it uses a text file... that's the end of it
  757. # [21:28] <gsnedders> Something that treated web apps, as, well, apps would likely be better.
  758. # [21:28] <Philip`> I have no idea what would be better in practice - if I did then I'd try to build it :-)
  759. # [21:28] <veosotano> Philip`: our approach is to shift many things from the content to the presentational layer
  760. # [21:28] <veosotano> XML is just a thin data layer
  761. # [21:28] <veosotano> that provides semantics
  762. # [21:28] <gsnedders> XML provides no semantics.
  763. # [21:28] <veosotano> namespaces
  764. # [21:29] <veosotano> but not prefixes
  765. # [21:29] <veosotano> those are ugly
  766. # [21:29] <veosotano> default namespaces
  767. # [21:30] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/4276/dragonfly2.png
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  771. # [21:30] <fflorent> matzipan: why not setting such a solution now, so users migrate step by step to that convenient solution, and vendors avoid to implement "-webkit" prefix
  772. # [21:31] <matzipan> maybe axr is not going to get anywhere, but at least it's something to be noted... you should definetely be aware of it
  773. # [21:31] <veosotano> haha that sounds menacing :P
  774. # [21:31] * Joins: sarro (~sarro@i5E864656.versanet.de)
  775. # [21:31] <veosotano> what I want is better tools
  776. # [21:32] <veosotano> we are proposing an alternative
  777. # [21:32] <veosotano> not to replace the web
  778. # [21:32] <veosotano> but to augment it
  779. # [21:32] <matzipan> _proposing_
  780. # [21:32] <matzipan> fflorent: i remember there being some different syntaxes on radial gradients and stuff
  781. # [21:32] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Yes. So?
  782. # [21:32] <veosotano> I think it will benefit everyone, even if html/css get better as a result
  783. # [21:33] * Parts: Funcod (~Miranda@127.172.67.86.rev.sfr.net)
  784. # [21:35] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, something you may care more about, Number.isNaN should be in the next Nightly
  785. # [21:35] * Joins: riven` (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  786. # [21:35] <Ms2ger> Along with default arguments
  787. # [21:35] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: I don't much.
  788. # [21:35] <gsnedders> :P
  789. # [21:35] <Ms2ger> Do you care for ANYTHING? ;)
  790. # [21:35] <gsnedders> Not really.
  791. # [21:35] <fflorent> matzipan: yes, so we can have : #myid { -experimental-border-radius: /* most common syntax */; -aVendorPrefix-border-radius: /* specific syntax that override the previous property */; ... }
  792. # [21:36] <Ms2ger> -wd-2012-06-01-border-radius
  793. # [21:37] <matzipan> fflorent: oooooooook, so that would get even messier.
  794. # [21:37] * Ms2ger goes and plays with DocumentFragments
  795. # [21:37] * Quits: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  796. # [21:37] <matzipan> But, on the other side, axr proposes a nice way around that :P j/k
  797. # [21:38] <Philip`> Ms2ger: That's great until someone writes a blog post saying "To guarantee forward compatibility for your content for at least the next two years, write { -wd-2012-06-01-border-radius: ...; -wd-2012-06-02-border-radius: ...; [snip]; -wd-2014-01-01-border-radius: ... }"
  798. # [21:39] <Ms2ger> Philip`, pff, let's just make SASS to generate that
  799. # [21:39] <Ms2ger> s/to//
  800. # [21:40] <matzipan> writing bytecode by hand seems a lot nicer at the moment
  801. # [21:40] * Philip` often sees people suggesting to use Opera-prefixed versions of features that Opera hasn't attempted to implement yet, like windows.oRequestAnimationFrame
  802. # [21:40] <Philip`> s/s//
  803. # [21:40] <Ms2ger> 'tis true
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  805. # [21:41] <fflorent> matzipan: what is the axr proposition ?
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  810. # [21:43] <matzipan> fflorent: it's a thing called a support object, we have it in mind, but i see it has not yet been written down : http://spec.axr.vg/specification.html#1.7.1
  811. # [21:44] <matzipan> fflorent: if you want some further info maybe veosotano will take a moment and explain it on pm
  812. # [21:45] <matzipan> oh, there's a github discussion on that
  813. # [21:46] <matzipan> fflorent: pm'd you
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  816. # [21:50] <matzipan> glad to talk to you guys, i hope this project will inspire you. if you don't mind i'm going to lurk around from now on
  817. # [21:50] * Quits: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  818. # [21:51] <fflorent> matzipan: OK, I see. Thank you
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  820. # [21:52] <veosotano> fflorent: what do you think about the @support solution?
  821. # [21:53] <fflorent> veosotano: as said in the github page : complex. But that is clean
  822. # [21:54] <veosotano> oh, you commented? :)
  823. # [21:55] <fflorent> veosotano: oh, not yet. Do you want me to comment ?
  824. # [21:55] <veosotano> no, I misunderstood you
  825. # [21:56] <matzipan> fflorent: we definetely need a lot of input on the project, tho
  826. # [21:56] <veosotano> which one is clean and which one not?
  827. # [21:58] * Quits: riven` (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  828. # [21:59] <veosotano> fflorent: I hope you didn't get me wrong there, I more than welcome your feedback
  829. # [21:59] <fflorent> veosotano: well, I spoke generally. That is cleaner than having a server-side PHP script that generate each vendor prefix :)
  830. # [22:00] <veosotano> I agree :)
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  832. # [22:02] <fflorent> veosotano: so, how would it work ? th
  833. # [22:02] <veosotano> what exactly?
  834. # [22:03] <fflorent> the browser execute the condition, and then the content inside the block is interpreted, anywhere the @support is put ?
  835. # [22:04] <fflorent> (I have not finished my sentence, sorry :s)
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  839. # [22:04] <fflorent> s/have/did
  840. # [22:04] <veosotano> @support is a special object, which means it can be used inside a selector chain
  841. # [22:05] <veosotano> and in HSS something called property filters are written with ( ) after the simple selector
  842. # [22:05] <veosotano> so you do
  843. # [22:05] <veosotano> @support( <property> <operator> <valuetocheckagainst>) { }
  844. # [22:05] <matzipan> veosotano: i think he was asking if you can use it anywhere else outside a selector chain
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  847. # [22:06] <veosotano> anything inside the block would be executed, yes
  848. # [22:06] <fflorent> matzipan: yes :)
  849. # [22:06] <fflorent> veosotano: ok
  850. # [22:06] <veosotano> I think it can't ….
  851. # [22:07] <matzipan> would this work? stuff { isA: button; @support(gradient) { do gradient background here} }
  852. # [22:07] <veosotano> it's sor of like a media query
  853. # [22:07] <fflorent> ah
  854. # [22:07] <veosotano> matzipan: not exactly like that, but yes
  855. # [22:07] <veosotano> in the general sense
  856. # [22:07] <matzipan> but how does it work?
  857. # [22:08] <veosotano> the support object maintains a list of values, which can be accessed by index just like an array
  858. # [22:08] * Quits: riven (~riven@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  859. # [22:08] <veosotano> that's for example with checks for object types
  860. # [22:08] <matzipan> @support.gradient = true then?
  861. # [22:08] <veosotano> oh
  862. # [22:08] <veosotano> the point to understand here
  863. # [22:09] <veosotano> is that the support object inherits the scope where it is in
  864. # [22:09] <veosotano> so what you select inside the block will select the same thing as outside, just conditionally
  865. # [22:09] <matzipan> that's intuitive, that's what i wrote earlier... but how would you rewrite my snippet to work?
  866. # [22:10] <veosotano> oh, that's the concrete syntax of the property filter
  867. # [22:10] <veosotano> so between the () you write the property name, and then you can use [ ] to access as an array
  868. # [22:10] <veosotano> so it would be
  869. # [22:11] <veosotano> @support(object["gradient"]) { @this{ background: myGradient }
  870. # [22:11] <veosotano> }
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  872. # [22:12] <veosotano> because gradient is an index in the property "object" of the support object
  873. # [22:12] <veosotano> and if it returns true the property filter matches
  874. # [22:12] <veosotano> therefore executes what's inside
  875. # [22:12] <matzipan> that's ugly
  876. # [22:12] <matzipan> _and_ unintuitive
  877. # [22:12] <veosotano> we could also maybe make it apply the properties you define inside to the parent
  878. # [22:12] <veosotano> so you'd do
  879. # [22:13] <veosotano> @support(object["gradient"]) { background: myGradient }
  880. # [22:14] <matzipan> but i don't get it, why the objec[] thing
  881. # [22:14] <veosotano> oh because it follows regular property filter syntax
  882. # [22:14] <matzipan> i mean, surely you need some kind of namespacing
  883. # [22:14] <matzipan> but who is "object"? ... that is the question
  884. # [22:15] <veosotano> actually I think the example code in the github issue is not optimal
  885. # [22:15] <veosotano> I'd call it "objects"
  886. # [22:15] <veosotano> @support(objects[ etc
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  888. # [22:15] <matzipan> i'd call it features
  889. # [22:16] <veosotano> but you can check for more things
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  891. # [22:16] <veosotano> combinators
  892. # [22:16] <veosotano> filters
  893. # [22:16] <veosotano> instead of objects
  894. # [22:16] <matzipan> oh, now i get it
  895. # [22:16] <veosotano> well anyway, I don't want to flood the channel ;)
  896. # [22:16] <matzipan> i'd call it properties then
  897. # [22:16] <fflorent> +1
  898. # [22:16] <matzipan> oh right, we should switch back
  899. # [22:16] <veosotano> :)
  900. # [22:16] <matzipan> sorry whatwg guys for spamming
  901. # [22:16] <veosotano> sorry guys
  902. # [22:18] <veosotano> but fflorent, did you get the idea?
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  904. # [22:18] <fflorent> veosotano: yes, I think
  905. # [22:18] <matzipan> maybe this will make it in css4 :D
  906. # [22:19] <veosotano> would you agree it is better than the prefixes?
  907. # [22:19] <matzipan> veosotano: well, that's because hss is fundamentally different. you can't just mix @support in CSS. it doesn't make sense
  908. # [22:20] <matzipan> oh wait. media queries..
  909. # [22:20] <veosotano> right
  910. # [22:20] <veosotano> I think there even is something like that in css
  911. # [22:20] <veosotano> or was it in JS?
  912. # [22:20] <fflorent> veosotano: there are people that use CSS3, and are not technically brilliant. I think it would be interesting to have their opinion.
  913. # [22:20] <fflorent> what do you think ? :p
  914. # [22:20] <matzipan> veosotano: isn't that modernizr? :P
  915. # [22:20] <veosotano> but browsers didn't report accurately what they supported
  916. # [22:20] <veosotano> so people never ended up using it
  917. # [22:22] <veosotano> but I can't remember how it was called :(
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The end :)