/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-06-04 / end

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  89. # [06:06] <jwalden> there's no way to -- within a script -- get a reference to its corresponding script element, is there? I can't think of one offhand, but I don't know that there isn't one
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  94. # [06:29] <Hixie> jwalden: if it's a blocking script run from the parser in a document that isn't being silly with its parsing environment, you can just get the last <script> element of the document
  95. # [06:30] <Hixie> jwalden: failing that, you can set a capture listener for afterscriptexecute during the script and then do whatever it is you want to do when it fires
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  97. # [06:30] <jwalden> hmm, I didn't know about the latter
  98. # [06:30] <jwalden> the former I had thought of as a worst-case hack, definitely :-)
  99. # [06:30] <Hixie> might not work reliably everywhere, it's relatively new
  100. # [06:31] <Hixie> if it's an external script, you can do it using the 'load' event instead of 'afterscriptexecute'
  101. # [06:32] <Hixie> if it's an internal script then you can do that too except the event will be queued and i'm not 100% sure you can't have another load fire first
  102. # [06:32] <Hixie> depending on what's going on
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  121. # [07:37] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: is it possible to CC a mailing list automatically for new bugs filed that have a particular string in the summary, or when a bug changes summary and now has that string?
  122. # [07:37] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: concretely, public-texttracks and "<track>"
  123. # [07:38] <MikeSmith> not possible with bugzilla as far as I know
  124. # [07:38] * MikeSmith checks
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  126. # [07:40] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah, no way to do if from bugzilla config
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  128. # [07:41] * zcorpan ponders about possible ways to do it anyway
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  130. # [07:44] <zcorpan> there's a feed: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&component=HTML5%20spec%20%28editor%3A%20Ian%20Hickson%29&component=other%20Hixie%20drafts%20%28editor%3A%20Ian%20Hickson%29&product=HTML%20WG&query_format=advanced&short_desc=%3Ctrack%3E&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&title=Bug%20List:%20track&ctype=atom
  131. # [07:45] <zcorpan> can something hook into that and send email about new items?
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  133. # [07:46] <MikeSmith> wow cool that link crashed my browser
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  135. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> sweet it just did it again
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  137. # [07:48] <zcorpan> nice
  138. # [07:52] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: anyway, yeah, I guess something could hook into that
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  165. # [10:20] * zcorpan wonders what happens with <img srcset="foo.jpg 2x" style="image-resolution:2dppx">
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  169. # [10:29] <odinho> zcorpan: Hmm. I would guess nothing. Because image-resolution would probably be at that already anyway? At least how I understand it.
  170. # [10:30] <odinho> <img srcset="foo.jpg 2x" style="image-resolution:1dppx"> is IMHO more of a braintwister, -- under the same "I haven't looked up how image-resolution is supposed to work" caveat.
  171. # [10:31] <odinho> MikeSmith: How much work is it approving PHP files for w3c-test.org? -- I keep moving stuff, and it's kinda stupid, I have a "staging" directory now and moved some PHP there. If it's approved, I will move it once more to /approved/
  172. # [10:34] * zcorpan doesn't like the fact that tests move
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  174. # [10:36] <odinho> zcorpan: Yeah, I don't really like it either. -- But I don't like them being in submitted/<vendor>/whatever either. And being of different quality and make.
  175. # [10:37] <Ms2ger> And there being too few, and nobody reviewing them ;)
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  177. # [10:38] <annevk> Ms2ger: so should I remove that third point then?
  178. # [10:39] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  179. # [10:39] <Ms2ger> And maybe add a note along the lines of "This implies that parent is a Document, DocumentFragment, or Element node."
  180. # [10:40] <annevk> so why did we end up with that step?
  181. # [10:40] <annevk> because of Attr?
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  183. # [10:41] <zcorpan> should we change the procedure with submitted tests to be closer to various people's liking?
  184. # [10:41] <Ms2ger> Hmm, that seems possible
  185. # [10:42] <annevk> but even if Attr remains a node it will never have children
  186. # [10:42] <annevk> so we can remove that
  187. # [10:43] <zcorpan> it'd be nice to have a review system (something like what we use at opera, called "critic") for tests, and you can look up the review for a test and see the history
  188. # [10:43] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  189. # [10:43] <zcorpan> and not have "accepted" at all, since specs change over time anyway
  190. # [10:44] <jgraham> zcorpan: Spent ages investigating review systems, turns out there aren't any good ones for hg
  191. # [10:44] <zcorpan> can we move to git? :-)
  192. # [10:44] <Ms2ger> No
  193. # [10:44] <odinho> Hmm. Another problem is that some of the tests are kinda OCD.
  194. # [10:44] <odinho> :(
  195. # [10:44] <annevk> if git has all the tooling...
  196. # [10:44] <annevk> git also has the community
  197. # [10:44] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: why?
  198. # [10:45] <jgraham> Actually moving to git would help a lot with the review problem even without open Opera-Critic
  199. # [10:45] <odinho> Some tests are more equal than others, to use Animal Farm terms :]
  200. # [10:45] <jgraham> Since there are a non-zero number os possible review tools
  201. # [10:45] <jgraham> notably gerrit, but - at a push - just github
  202. # [10:46] <jgraham> (of course pliniss is developing some custom thing based around the CSS WG workflow)
  203. # [10:47] <annevk> zcorpan: image-resolution seems like something we should not implement...
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  205. # [10:48] <zcorpan> annevk: why not?
  206. # [10:49] <AryehGregor> jgraham, shepherd supports test review, and has for ages.
  207. # [10:50] <AryehGregor> I doubt it's comparable to gerrit, though.
  208. # [10:50] <annevk> zcorpan: does not seem like a good idea to complicate image math even further
  209. # [10:50] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Yes, I think I said that
  210. # [10:51] * AryehGregor was replying to "(of course pliniss is developing some custom thing based around the CSS WG workflow)", which was phrased in the present participle and therefore implied it was still under development
  211. # [10:51] <jgraham> Or at least that it was being developed. Last I heard it didn't really support > 1 test per file
  212. # [10:51] <AryehGregor> No, it doesn't.
  213. # [10:51] <AryehGregor> AFAIK.
  214. # [10:51] <jgraham> Well then it is either "still being developed" or "useless"
  215. # [10:52] <jgraham> I was giving it the benefit of the doubt
  216. # [10:52] <AryehGregor> It's really meant originally for manual CSS tests, which is logically going to be one test per file.
  217. # [10:52] <jgraham> Yes
  218. # [10:52] <AryehGregor> It has some support for reftests too, although inadequate.
  219. # [10:52] <AryehGregor> I don't think it has reasonable support for JS tests.
  220. # [10:52] <jgraham> I just think tests should be reviewed like code
  221. # [10:52] <AryehGregor> I completely agree for JS tests.
  222. # [10:52] <jgraham> A sequence of commits
  223. # [10:52] <AryehGregor> Since, well, they are code. :)
  224. # [10:53] <jgraham> Yeah, but not everyone thinks that
  225. # [10:53] <AryehGregor> Reftests and such make sense to review as files, since they tend to be very short and simple and logically delineated as-is.
  226. # [10:53] <AryehGregor> I don't think reviewing them as commits makes as much sense.
  227. # [10:54] * Quits: Phae (u455@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ssvdamubbbkpfbfc) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
  228. # [10:54] <jgraham> I think having one system for everything makes a lot of sense
  229. # [10:55] <jgraham> and using a commit-based review system at Opera for tests is working fine
  230. # [10:55] <jgraham> (although I have personally never used it for reviewing reftests, I have reviewed manual tests)
  231. # [11:02] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: i don't see much problem with reviewing reftests as commits. of course you'd want to run the test as well, but that applies to other tests equally i think
  232. # [11:02] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.193.125.getinternet.no)
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  234. # [11:06] <jgraham> So if I have data:text/html,<body onload="location='data:text/html,1'" onunload="'location=data:text/html,2'">3 what should I end up with per spec?
  235. # [11:07] <Ms2ger> COME_ON_ERR
  236. # [11:07] <jgraham> Browsers seem to give 1) which makes sense if the unload navigation is cancelled, but afaict that would happen in step 4) which only applies to different-origin navigations
  237. # [11:07] * Joins: yarco (~yarco_wan@114.94.44.6)
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  239. # [11:08] <zcorpan> jgraham: material for #htmlpubquiz :-P
  240. # [11:12] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@212-226-57-60-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  241. # [11:13] <jgraham> zcorpan: Not useful :p
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  245. # [11:16] <zcorpan> jgraham: you could use the majority answer as the correct answer on the basis that it's what people expect to be right :-)
  246. # [11:17] <zcorpan> jgraham: is a data: navigation considered to be a same-origin navigation?
  247. # [11:23] <odinho> zcorpan: lol, using majority - that's a sneaky method.
  248. # [11:24] * Ms2ger sighs
  249. # [11:24] <odinho> BTW, I'm no big fan of the long names. Anyone care to think about something better than navigator.persistentStorageSettings.queryUsageAndQuota or navigator.storageInfo.queryPersistentUsageAndQuota? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2012AprJun/1044.html
  250. # [11:24] <Ms2ger> And here I thought that Node.replaceChild would be interoperable
  251. # [11:25] <Ms2ger> Should have known better
  252. # [11:25] <zcorpan> odinho: where's the spec for those?
  253. # [11:26] <odinho> zcorpan: Seems to be http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/quota/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  254. # [11:27] * Quits: annevk (annevk@nat/opera/x-iraukohnmmwappjs) (Remote host closed the connection)
  255. # [11:27] <zcorpan> odinho: although maybe it's not so reliable since people may be answering the answer they think is *least* reasonable hoping that it's the correct answer (since it probably has been in the past)
  256. # [11:27] <odinho> zcorpan: Haha
  257. # [11:27] * Joins: annevk (annevk@nat/opera/x-ehmxzmklrwkxnadz)
  258. # [11:27] <odinho> zcorpan: So, phrase the question: "What would be most reasonable? <example>"
  259. # [11:28] <matjas> http://twitter.com/mattur/status/209574686739275776 lolol
  260. # [11:28] <Ms2ger> "Cannot convert 'document.body' to object"
  261. # [11:29] <zcorpan> odinho: but that probably quickly leads to useless bikeshedding and ultimately the Complicator's Gloves
  262. # [11:29] <AryehGregor> jgraham, you probably mean: data:text/html,<body onload="location='data:text/html,1'" onunload="location='data:text/html,2'">3
  263. # [11:29] <AryehGregor> (note location of ' in onunload attribute)
  264. # [11:30] <AryehGregor> This is just a question of what happens if onunload navigates, right?
  265. # [11:31] <AryehGregor> I'd think it would either fail, or succeed and automatically cancel the pending navigation but not trigger the onunload handler again (obviously).
  266. # [11:31] <AryehGregor> I would sure hope that it doesn't succeed *followed by* the original navigation succeeding. That would be kind of silly.
  267. # [11:32] <AryehGregor> zcorpan, reviewing reftests as commits makes sense, but if you're reviewing *only* reftests (and reftest-like manual tests) I think reviewing per-file probably makes more sense. Which is probably why the CSSWG does it.
  268. # [11:33] <AryehGregor> If you're reviewing both reftests and JS tests, I agree that it makes the most sense to do commit-based review for all of them, but the CSSWG is kind of stuck with its existing system, I guess . . .
  269. # [11:35] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.193.125.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  270. # [11:36] <matijsb> good morning, Whatwg!
  271. # [11:38] <krijn> Slijmbal
  272. # [11:41] <Ms2ger> Hah
  273. # [11:41] * Ms2ger whacks krijn
  274. # [11:42] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@50-0-92-247.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  275. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> odinho: it's not much work
  276. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> if you have stuff you want to have approved, let me know
  277. # [11:43] <odinho> MikeSmith: OK webappsec/tests/cors/submitted/opera/staging/resources/cors-makeheader.php << that one. :P
  278. # [11:44] <odinho> If I update it later (same path), is it still approved?
  279. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> no
  280. # [11:44] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Oh, good catch, thanks
  281. # [11:44] <jgraham> Seems to change the behaviour of Opera
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  283. # [11:45] <Kolombiken> good morning, Whatwg!
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  285. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> odinho: done
  286. # [11:50] <Ms2ger> Fail: assert_throws: function "function() { doc.replaceChild(df, doc.documentElement..." Fail: assert_throws: function "function() { a.replaceChild(a, c); }" threw object "DOMException: HIERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR" that is not a DOMException NotFoundError: property "code" is equal to 3, expected 8
  287. # [11:50] <Ms2ger> Pass
  288. # [11:50] <Ms2ger> Fail: assert_throws: function "function() { document.replaceChild(doc, document.docu..." threw Element node <html><head><meta charset="utf-8"> <title>Node.replaceChi... that is not a DOMException HierarchyRequestError: property "code" is equal to undefined, expected 3
  289. # [11:50] <Ms2ger> Fail: assert_throws: function "function() { doc.replaceChild(df, doc.documentElement..." threw Element node <html><head><title>title</title></head><body></body></html> that is not a DOMException HierarchyRequestError: property "code" is equal to undefined, expected 3
  290. # [11:50] <Ms2ger> 1. Why does Opera fail at copying stuff in columns
  291. # [11:51] <Ms2ger> 2. Why would it claim to throw an Element as an exception?
  292. # [11:51] <zcorpan> maybe it does?
  293. # [11:51] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@guest.opera.com)
  294. # [11:52] <Ms2ger> It does appear to
  295. # [11:52] <Ms2ger> Fascinating
  296. # [11:54] <Ms2ger> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1559
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  298. # [11:57] <AryehGregor> nsCOMPtr<nsIContentIterator> iter = do_CreateInstance("@mozilla.org/content/post-content-iterator;1", &rv);
  299. # [11:57] <AryehGregor> How could that possibly fail?
  300. # [11:57] <Ms2ger> Wrong window? :)
  301. # [11:57] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@61.12.96.242)
  302. # [11:57] <AryehGregor> Argh!
  303. # [11:57] <AryehGregor> I get confused when the last person talking is someone like you.
  304. # [11:58] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@5e0844a7.bb.sky.com)
  305. # [11:58] <odinho> lol, someone like you. Sounds ... a bit accusing. :P
  306. # [11:59] <matjas> yeah, why can’t Ms2ger just SHUT UP
  307. # [12:01] <jgraham> I think he means a dirty, good for nothing, Gecko hacker
  308. # [12:02] <jgraham> (uh, does that need a smilie?)
  309. # [12:02] <jgraham> (just in case: ;)
  310. # [12:02] <Ms2ger> )
  311. # [12:03] * Joins: nonge_ (~nonge@p5B326395.dip.t-dialin.net)
  312. # [12:03] <jgraham> hsivonen: I'm not sure I understand the point you were trying to make in bug 17231.
  313. # [12:04] <Ms2ger> "There’s been a big spat over responsive images but WHATWG is unwilling to reverse its decision"
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  315. # [12:04] <Ms2ger> Trolling much, leaverou?
  316. # [12:07] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p50829343.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  317. # [12:25] * Ms2ger grumbles at Opera
  318. # [12:27] <annevk> "Full Screen API" spelling is hard I guess...
  319. # [12:28] <annevk> "The Full Screen API is a joint effort between the WebApps and CSS Working Groups." comedy gold
  320. # [12:28] <annevk> but overall it's super that someone is writing this up
  321. # [12:38] <odinho> Ms2ger: Yeah, storm in a tea cup.
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  336. # [13:13] * Ms2ger is glad that Opera manages to avoid creating cycles, at least...
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  341. # [13:19] <zcorpan> Hixie: is it intentional that cues can have background images?
  342. # [13:24] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@61.12.96.242) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  343. # [13:24] <matjas> annevk: yeah, it’s like the WHATWG weekly, but with a broader scope. Typos or not, I dig it.
  344. # [13:25] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@61.12.96.242)
  345. # [13:30] <Ms2ger> Too few DOM4 tabs open...
  346. # [13:30] * Ms2ger opens a 7th
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  361. # [14:07] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, do you know if Opera has a bug for throwing nodes as exceptions from replaceChild?
  362. # [14:07] * Joins: rworth (~rworth@pool-173-66-213-252.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
  363. # [14:08] <zcorpan> i don't see one
  364. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> http://w3c-test.org/webapps/DOMCore/tests/submissions/Ms2ger/Node-replaceChild.html if you want more of a test case
  365. # [14:11] <zcorpan> thanks! i'll file a bug
  366. # [14:11] <Ms2ger> Np
  367. # [14:15] <annevk> heh, fun bug
  368. # [14:15] <zcorpan> CORE-46726
  369. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> Definitely not a failure mode I'd met before
  370. # [14:15] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, thanks
  371. # [14:18] <annevk> Ms2ger: I've seen it before; don't remember where though
  372. # [14:18] <Ms2ger> Probably in Opera :)
  373. # [14:18] <annevk> in part it's because we don't have bindings
  374. # [14:18] <annevk> Ms2ger: well yeah :)
  375. # [14:19] <Ms2ger> You don't have bindings?
  376. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> I'm rather surprised how well it works out, then :)
  377. # [14:21] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
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  381. # [14:32] <annevk> http://vimeo.com/43380467 is pretty cool
  382. # [14:32] <annevk> bit of standards bashing
  383. # [14:35] * Joins: jryans (~jryans@office.massrel.com)
  384. # [14:36] <moo-_-> annevk: nice :)
  385. # [14:36] <Ms2ger> LaTeX slides?
  386. # [14:37] <annevk> what seems somewhat weird to me is that he tells this at a developer's conference
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  395. # [14:55] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Mozilla don't exactaly have a glorious history of making DOM-via-code-generation (i.e. bindings) work in a standards compliant / performant way :)
  396. # [14:57] <jgraham> (or at least, so http://jstenback.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/history-of-mozillas-dom-bindings/ would have you believe)
  397. # [14:57] <matjas> in case any of you know:
  398. # [14:57] <matjas> “SVG images know their aspect ratio; why don't browsers respect it?” — http://stackoverflow.com/q/10874763/96656
  399. # [14:59] * Joins: krit (~krit@c-24-6-231-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  400. # [14:59] <gsnedders> annevk: XSLT sounds a lot like what he wants from CSS.
  401. # [15:02] <annevk> heh
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  404. # [15:05] <zcorpan> matjas: it seems the question boils down to s/browsers/chrome 19/
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  408. # [15:07] <annevk> matjas: added an answer
  409. # [15:07] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Who cares about anything apart from WebKit?
  410. # [15:08] <matjas> annevk: thanks!
  411. # [15:08] <matjas> gsnedders: wait, is there anything else?
  412. # [15:08] <matzipan> gsnedders: sarcasm ?
  413. # [15:11] <gsnedders> matjas: What's this Gecko thing? Sounds scary!
  414. # [15:11] <matzipan> I don't want lizards in my computer
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  426. # [15:39] <zcorpan> Hixie: the file-spec-bug thingie in the spec dialog saying that the bug was filed (with a link) often doesn't appear for me (maybe because i switch tabs while it's doing its thing and then decides i don't want to see it anymore, or i dunno)
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  428. # [15:40] <zcorpan> Hixie: i think you made it fragile and disappear-for-nothing after i complained that i wanted "enter" to dismiss the dialog instead of filing a new bug
  429. # [15:41] <zcorpan> Hixie: but i'm afraid you didn't fix what i wanted and instead made it worse :-P
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  435. # [15:54] <Ms2ger> jgraham, definitely not
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  437. # [15:56] <Ms2ger> jgraham, but the places where we have to deal with JS values directly tend to end up being rather horrible code
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  443. # [15:59] <smaug____> Ms2ger: you might remember
  444. # [15:59] <smaug____> why would anyone use float in idl
  445. # [15:59] <smaug____> and not double
  446. # [16:00] * smaug____ needs to check how those map to JS Number
  447. # [16:00] <zcorpan> because they write IDL targeting the Java binding?
  448. # [16:00] <smaug____> this is new stuff
  449. # [16:01] <smaug____> certainly for web only
  450. # [16:01] <smaug____> Gamepad
  451. # [16:01] <smaug____> is there *any* reason to use float
  452. # [16:01] <Ms2ger> No idea
  453. # [16:01] <Ms2ger> heycam|away, can we just kill float?
  454. # [16:02] <smaug____> and this happens again...start reviewing a patch by filing spec bugs first
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  456. # [16:03] <zcorpan> the html spec switched all floats to doubles some time (few years maybe?) ago, iirc
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  460. # [16:13] <smaug____> there is no such idl type as string, right?
  461. # [16:13] <smaug____> it is DOMString
  462. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> Right
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  471. # [16:37] <gsnedders> Is there some reason we can't just call it "string"?
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  475. # [16:46] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, objection, I don't want to change all the specs :)
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  477. # [16:49] <odinho> ssh dvcs.w3.org -e sed -Ri 's/DOMString/string/' *
  478. # [16:49] <odinho> :P
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  500. # [17:26] <gsnedders> Can anyone, from spec, justify what Object.getPrototypeOf(crossOriginWindow) should do?
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  503. # [17:28] <Ms2ger> Does the spec for Object.getPrototypeOf no longer deny the existence of crossOriginWindow?
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  506. # [17:39] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: The spec for Object.getPrototypeOf says "return [[Prototype]]", pretty much]
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  508. # [17:40] * gsnedders checks ES6
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  511. # [17:45] <boaz> good morning, Whatwg!
  512. # [17:47] <Ms2ger> Good morning, boaz
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  517. # [17:50] <gsnedders> I think per spec you should return the object and then that should be poisoned.
  518. # [17:50] <gsnedders> That isn't what ourselves or WebKit do.
  519. # [17:50] <gsnedders> Dunno about IE.
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  523. # [18:00] <gsnedders> So much variation in behaviour.
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  526. # [18:01] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  535. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> dglazkov, today, you are not alone
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  537. # [18:06] <dglazkov> yaaaay!
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  547. # [18:18] <timeless> matjas: that /timeless/ stuff is confusing :(
  548. # [18:18] <timeless> odinho: i hope you realize that wouldn't work right at all :)
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  605. # [18:56] <jgraham> Must. Not. Use. Sarcasm. On. Mailing. List.
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  607. # [18:56] <WeirdAl> that's right. IRC is much, much more forgiving.
  608. # [18:57] <WeirdAl> (mainly because we're much, much more forgetting)
  609. # [18:57] <jgraham> But seriously, wtf at the coremob people saying "we're having a meeting, there's no agenda, decisions are binding, if you can't come provide input in advance"
  610. # [18:57] <WeirdAl> coremob?
  611. # [18:58] <jgraham> I mean apart from the fact that they are requiring claivoyance from non-participants, who the fuck still thinks that F2F meetings should have binding decisions
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  613. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> The WG
  614. # [18:59] <jgraham> After all, there's no better way to make a decision than get a small subset of interested parties into a time-constrained situation where they can't digest all the arguments properly and can't change their position on something controversial without losing face.
  615. # [18:59] <Hixie> zcorpan: patches welcome
  616. # [19:00] <Hixie> jgraham: tell them that's not how it's going to happen (assuming you're the editor... if you're not, not much you can do)
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  618. # [19:00] <timeless> Ms2ger: the WG doesn't technically exist yet iirc
  619. # [19:01] <timeless> or does it
  620. # [19:01] * timeless can't remember which WGs have had their charters' approved
  621. # [19:01] <Ms2ger> timeless, I meant CSS
  622. # [19:01] <Hixie> short of not implementing it
  623. # [19:01] <jgraham> Hixie: I'm not and there's not. Which is why I have resorted to ineffectual whining here
  624. # [19:01] <Hixie> heh
  625. # [19:01] <Hixie> which wg is this?
  626. # [19:01] <timeless> coremob
  627. # [19:01] <Hixie> what is "coremob"
  628. # [19:01] <timeless> it's totally unclear what it will do anyway
  629. # [19:02] <Hixie> sounds like a gang or something
  630. # [19:02] <jgraham> timeless: Maybe that's what they will decide
  631. # [19:02] <timeless> i think the best possible outcome is that it writes test cases for other wg's specs
  632. # [19:02] <Ms2ger> "Anti-device-independent-web"
  633. # [19:02] <timeless> jgraham: dunno, i haven't gotten around to asking my manager if i should go
  634. # [19:02] <timeless> at one point i assumed i would go
  635. # [19:02] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I think that mnight be unfair
  636. # [19:02] <Hixie> oh, a mobile-web wg? in that case it's great news that it's dysfunctional :-)
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  638. # [19:03] <timeless> Ms2ger: don't forget the sysapps wg (charter not finalized)
  639. # [19:03] <jgraham> Hixie: I like to think of it as "an interoperability-increaing oppertunity that just happens to be riding on the fashion for the word 'mobile'"
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  641. # [19:03] <timeless> if you want the anti-device-independent-web, i think sysapps is a better place for you :)
  642. # [19:03] <timeless> coremob is more like "let's standardize webkit"
  643. # [19:03] * WeirdAl waves to his old friend
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  645. # [19:04] <Ms2ger> timeless, well, that or my friends at Mozilla
  646. # [19:04] <timeless> hi
  647. # [19:04] <jgraham> Yeah, "let's standardise WebKit" is certianly the dark side of the path it could take
  648. # [19:04] <timeless> technically the path is more like
  649. # [19:04] <timeless> "let's write tests for webkit specific features"
  650. # [19:05] <timeless> ... as an end result, everyone will have to implement them to pass the tests
  651. # [19:05] <timeless> it isn't technically "let's standardize webkit"
  652. # [19:05] <timeless> but the distinction isn't significant
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  654. # [19:05] <Hixie> how frightening
  655. # [19:05] <timeless> Hixie: i'm not sure that coremob is the scariest nascent group out there
  656. # [19:06] <timeless> sysapps could be significantly scarier
  657. # [19:06] <timeless> it's basically asking most UAs to implement a non-web security model
  658. # [19:06] <timeless> and note, it
  659. # [19:06] <timeless> 's possible for coremob to be useful and helpful to the web
  660. # [19:07] <timeless> ... IFF it spends its time writing missing test cases for other w3 specs
  661. # [19:07] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure that the coremob stuff will end up setting some aspirational goals for UAs like "implement spec X before spec Y" and, perhaps, might get some more people writing tests
  662. # [19:07] <Hixie> does sysapps have any UA vendors in it?
  663. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> If so, they're not doing their jobs...
  664. # [19:07] <jgraham> sysapps is Mozilla driven, I think
  665. # [19:07] <timeless> Hixie: oddly, yes
  666. # [19:08] <Hixie> christ
  667. # [19:08] <timeless> it has mozilla and chrome at least
  668. # [19:08] <timeless> that's what makes it scary
  669. # [19:08] * timeless wonders how Hixie has missed it
  670. # [19:09] <Hixie> how would i have known about it? :-)
  671. # [19:09] <timeless> (well, ok, you were being productive instead of spending your time worrying about uncertain doom)
  672. # [19:09] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-xrixvtclajxwidso)
  673. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> timeless: Do you know if it's actually Chrome, or just Google that's on it?
  674. # [19:09] <timeless> TabAtkins: it isn't the Android-Browser if that's what you're asking
  675. # [19:09] <Ms2ger> timeless, productive or on holiday ;)
  676. # [19:09] <timeless> it seems to be either Chrome-OS or Chrome-Android
  677. # [19:10] <timeless> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/2012/05/sysapps-wg-charter.html
  678. # [19:10] <timeless> i'm not sure if that's current
  679. # [19:10] <timeless> they revised it recently
  680. # [19:11] <Hixie> oh
  681. # [19:11] <Hixie> well
  682. # [19:11] <Hixie> that's doomed
  683. # [19:11] <timeless> TabAtkins: and it seems that certain other webkit groups don't object to adjusting the security model of webkit
  684. # [19:11] <timeless> Hixie: i wish i had your confidence in that
  685. # [19:11] * timeless is actually more afraid of B2G than Chrome-OS/Chrome-Android
  686. # [19:11] <Hixie> trying to define a spec that competes with native OS apps is a non-starter
  687. # [19:11] <Ms2ger> Hixie, did you hear about B2G?
  688. # [19:12] <Hixie> b2g is fine so long as it's proprietary
  689. # [19:12] <timeless> Hixie: native-os api's are more or less going out the window
  690. # [19:12] <timeless> Hixie: B2G is one of the groups trying to drive sys-apps
  691. # [19:12] <Hixie> it takes all the worst thins of apps (installation, security nightmare, etc), and combines them with the worst things of the web (slow development, crappy APIs, etc)
  692. # [19:12] <timeless> they don't want to "be proprietary"
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  694. # [19:12] * Joins: veosotano (~anonymous@18.Red-83-44-153.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net)
  695. # [19:12] <timeless> because they want to borrow apps written for other "devices"
  696. # [19:13] <timeless> note: i'm not endorsing this stuff,
  697. # [19:13] <Hixie> a non-proprietary platform will be unable to compete with a proprietary platform so long as it tries to play the same game
  698. # [19:13] <timeless> i'm just more afraid of it being partially successful than you are confident in it not being so
  699. # [19:13] <timeless> Hixie: btw, would you classify Android as proprietary?
  700. # [19:13] <Hixie> i should say, i don't think they'll fail to write specs and waste lots of engineer time implementing it
  701. # [19:13] * timeless really hasn't considered that question in a while
  702. # [19:13] <Hixie> i just think it'll fail in the market
  703. # [19:14] <Hixie> timeless: yeah. i should really say one-vendor-driven, not proprietary. the word is a bit ambiguous in cases like this.
  704. # [19:14] <timeless> Hixie: right
  705. # [19:14] <timeless> so the question is, if it's 2 vendor driven instead of 1 vendor driven
  706. # [19:14] <timeless> does that make things better or worse?
  707. # [19:14] <timeless> (anyone here remember MeeGo?)
  708. # [19:14] <Hixie> it makes them slower
  709. # [19:14] <timeless> (that was 2 vendor driven)
  710. # [19:15] <Hixie> which makes it impossible for it to compete with native OSes
  711. # [19:15] <Hixie> at least while they're playing the same game
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  714. # [19:15] <gsnedders> Hixie: Surely the point is to be cross-platform, so complete in the sense that Qt does?
  715. # [19:16] <gsnedders> Which, sure, isn't exactly rivaling native APIs, but still is significant
  716. # [19:16] <Hixie> Qt is single-vendor, and i would still not characterise it as a success in this space
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  718. # [19:18] <timeless> Qt is an odd duck
  719. # [19:18] <timeless> there was a time when it made a lot of sense and could have done well
  720. # [19:19] <timeless> but at this point it's implementing stuff over a decade late
  721. # [19:19] <timeless> (see VB/Delphi)
  722. # [19:19] <Hixie> ahh, delphi
  723. # [19:19] * Joins: danielfilho (~daniel@187.31.77.7)
  724. # [19:20] * Hixie has recently taken to writing all his server-side code in freepascal, which is a free implementation of a superset of delphi
  725. # [19:20] <Hixie> so nice
  726. # [19:20] <TabAtkins> So weird.
  727. # [19:21] <Hixie> there's only really two things about it that i would say are weird, which is really orders of magnitude better than most other platforms
  728. # [19:21] * Joins: jreading (~Adium@204.56.125.50)
  729. # [19:21] <Hixie> (a) strings are 1-indexed for historical reasons :-/
  730. # [19:21] <Hixie> and (b) the support for generics is a bit wonky in its current implementation, e.g. it fails when combined with structured types with overloaded operators
  731. # [19:22] <Hixie> (i've run into (b) more often than i'd like)
  732. # [19:22] <Hixie> (you get used to (a) pretty quickly and there's language features to hide it anyway)
  733. # [19:22] <timeless> Hixie: does freepascal have the VCL?
  734. # [19:22] <Hixie> yeah, a reimplementation called the FCL
  735. # [19:22] <Hixie> i don't generally use it
  736. # [19:22] <timeless> wow
  737. # [19:22] <Hixie> since i'm making server-side software, not guis
  738. # [19:22] <timeless> yeah, it only makes sense if you're doing desktop gui
  739. # [19:22] <timeless> right
  740. # [19:22] <Hixie> also has a reimplementation of TurboVision
  741. # [19:23] <Hixie> cross-platform, in both cases
  742. # [19:23] <timeless> i've been using CherryPy to write an HTML app
  743. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> Back in my day, I used Borland Pascal
  744. # [19:23] <moo-_-> Turbo Pascal FTW
  745. # [19:23] <timeless> Ms2ger: Borland Pascal or Turbo Pascal?
  746. # [19:23] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-njeepiaxxwhrzhjv) (Quit: Reconnecting…)
  747. # [19:23] <timeless> and have you seen Quick Pascal?
  748. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> Borland, and no
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  750. # [19:24] <timeless> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Pascal
  751. # [19:24] <timeless> how about Turbo Basic? :)
  752. # [19:24] <timeless> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo_Basic
  753. # [19:24] <moo-_-> timeless: microsoft had a Quick Basic which was a commercial version of QBasic
  754. # [19:24] <Ms2ger> (The next year my school moved to JS)
  755. # [19:24] <moo-_-> creating .exes
  756. # [19:24] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:149:4:1b01:9ab:690:5aa0:88fe) (Quit: jernoble)
  757. # [19:24] <timeless> moo-_-: yeah, i used it
  758. # [19:24] <timeless> a friend of mine owned it
  759. # [19:25] <timeless> Ms2ger: i used Turbo Pascal in 10th grade for AP CS
  760. # [19:25] <moo-_-> now, one needs to write qbasic interpreter in JS...
  761. # [19:25] <timeless> the next year they switched to C++ iirc
  762. # [19:25] <Hixie> wow, turbo basic was a compiler, not an interpreter
  763. # [19:26] <timeless> i think i used it when it was powerbasic (much later)
  764. # [19:27] <timeless> Hixie: i'm not sure that's a proper interpretation
  765. # [19:27] <timeless> it /had/ a compiler
  766. # [19:27] <timeless> "The integrated development environment could run a BASIC program internally for traditional BASIC debugging (see sample below),"
  767. # [19:27] * Quits: wodemay (~wodemay@114.244.47.44) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  768. # [19:27] <Hixie> that's what i meant, yes
  769. # [19:27] <Hixie> sorry
  770. # [19:27] <timeless> sorry to be picky :)
  771. # [19:28] <Hixie> hey if one can't be a pedant in #whatwg, where can one be a pedant
  772. # [19:28] <Hixie> this is like the capital of pedant country
  773. # [19:28] <timeless> oh good, i knew there was a reason i felt so at home here :)
  774. # [19:29] <Ms2ger> !summon MikeSmith
  775. # [19:31] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:149:4:1b01:a854:c830:eaba:c3e2)
  776. # [19:31] <annevk> Ms2ger: just talk to [tm]
  777. # [19:31] <Ms2ger> [tm], http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/fullscreen/raw-file/tip/Overview.html has issues
  778. # [19:31] <annevk> whoa what happened there?
  779. # [19:31] <jernoble> the mime type probably changed
  780. # [19:32] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  781. # [19:32] <annevk> weird that it would only affect Fullscreen
  782. # [19:32] <jernoble> Content-Type: application/binary
  783. # [19:32] <annevk> oh it doesn't
  784. # [19:32] <annevk> cannot load the URL spec either
  785. # [19:32] <annevk> or DOM
  786. # [19:32] <annevk> grmbl
  787. # [19:33] <timeless>
  788. # [19:33] <timeless> Content-Type: application/binary
  789. # [19:33] <annevk> shepazu: ^^
  790. # [19:33] <TabAtkins> CSS specs are okay.
  791. # [19:33] <timeless> according to http://web-sniffer.net/
  792. # [19:33] <timeless> oh
  793. # [19:33] <timeless> that's probably a Hg upgrade
  794. # [19:33] * Quits: sarspazam (~sarspazam@95.148.192.149) (Quit: sarspazam)
  795. # [19:33] <shepazu> annevk: sorry, what are you pointing at?
  796. # [19:33] <timeless> there's a risk of hg repos being used to run arbitrary code
  797. # [19:34] <timeless> so you have to tell hg's web server you're ok w/ hosting html
  798. # [19:34] <timeless> otherwise...
  799. # [19:34] <shepazu> I don't know anything about QBasic
  800. # [19:34] <annevk> shepazu: loading http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html or http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/fullscreen/raw-file/tip/Overview.html no longer works
  801. # [19:34] <shepazu> wtf?
  802. # [19:34] <timeless> => annevk
  803. # [19:34] <[tm]> Ms2ger: I'm on a smoke break
  804. # [19:34] <annevk> shepazu: MIME type changed on the server
  805. # [19:34] <shepazu> thanks, annevk, I'll pass that on
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  807. # [19:34] <shepazu> d'oh.
  808. # [19:34] <timeless> annevk: not technically on the server ^^
  809. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> [tm], we've got smart people on it, thanks anyway ;)
  810. # [19:35] * Hixie tries to debug some random web page and finds himself deep in a maze of twisty <div>s, all alike
  811. # [19:35] <annevk> timeless: pedant
  812. # [19:35] <shepazu> Ms2ger: no, I'm handling it
  813. # [19:35] <annevk> lol
  814. # [19:35] <timeless> http://selenic.com/repo/hg/rev/d06b9c55ddab
  815. # [19:35] <timeless> annevk: it matters because it affects where the fix is
  816. # [19:35] <Ms2ger> shepazu, every now and then, I try to be nice to you ;)
  817. # [19:35] <timeless> shepazu: guessmime is what you'll need in /etc/hgrc or whatever
  818. # [19:36] <timeless> [web]
  819. # [19:36] <timeless> guessmime=True
  820. # [19:36] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f731307.pool.mediaWays.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  821. # [19:37] <timeless> shepazu: ^ adding that section+line should fix it
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  823. # [19:39] <shepazu> timeless, annevk, our crack team is dealing with it
  824. # [19:39] <timeless> shepazu: shrug
  825. # [19:39] <timeless> if you pass along what i suggested it'll save them time
  826. # [19:39] <shepazu> so… it might be a while, until they can afford a really primo rock
  827. # [19:39] <timeless> and thanks for pinging someone :)
  828. # [19:40] <shepazu> timeless: I did pass on your suggestion, thanks! :)
  829. # [19:40] <timeless> :)
  830. # [19:40] <shepazu> hopefully that will be quick
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  832. # [19:41] <annevk> thank you!
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  834. # [19:42] <shepazu> annevk, timeless, should be fine now… we updated to mercurial 1.8.something this morning, this used to be the default behavior, says our crack team
  835. # [19:43] <timeless> correct
  836. # [19:43] <timeless> the behavior was changed because it was deemed insecure for groups that weren't aware of it
  837. # [19:43] <annevk> shepazu: fine it is :)
  838. # [19:43] <timeless> for specific groups that wanted the feature, the flag was added
  839. # [19:44] <shepazu> cool, sorry for the inconvenience, and thanks for the help
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  846. # [19:57] <Ms2ger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17302
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  860. # [20:08] <timeless> cute
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  862. # [20:09] <Hixie> TabAtkins: technically we _did_ "merge", twice so far, once with the htmlwg and once with a cg. :-)
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  865. # [20:13] <timeless> heh
  866. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Humor cares nothing for your facts.
  867. # [20:13] <Hixie> hah
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  873. # [20:14] <TabAtkins> Btw, how's the CG thing working? When can I stop telling people that we care about the HTMLWG just because they offer a patent policy?
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  876. # [20:15] <Hixie> i should do a FSA publication soon
  877. # [20:16] <timeless> fsa?
  878. # [20:16] <Hixie> "Final" Specification Agreement
  879. # [20:17] <Hixie> the patent-policy version of CG publication
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  883. # [20:21] * timeless ponders kanji and friends
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  890. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> "My computer is old and slow. I got a message on the internet I should switch to standard HTML version. Please advise."
  891. # [20:30] * Ms2ger closes the bug before TabAtkins humours it
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  893. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> Why you do this, Ms2ger? Why you hate humor?
  894. # [20:35] <Ms2ger> Yes
  895. # [20:35] <Ms2ger> I prefer humour
  896. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> I can Brit up my humor, give the people a u if they want.
  897. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> Make some jokes about the queen.
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  899. # [20:39] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Only if you want to end up in the Tower
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  911. # [21:08] <Velmont> MikeSmith: Yo, there? w3c-test.org doesn't seem to have the latest and greatest /resources/.
  912. # [21:09] <Velmont> MikeSmith: Oh fsck. I didn't commit that yet, no. Stupid. Heh.
  913. # [21:09] * gsnedders slow-claps Velmont
  914. # [21:09] <Velmont> :-S
  915. # [21:09] <Velmont> gsnedders: Can you review then, since you're here and acting all cool and all?
  916. # [21:10] <Velmont> https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js/pull/1
  917. # [21:10] <gsnedders> No.
  918. # [21:10] <Velmont> Hmm. Though, Ms2ger didn't seem to have any more comments. So maybe I can just push it in there... Hmmz.
  919. # [21:10] <Velmont> jgraham: <make noise>
  920. # [21:11] <gsnedders> Mainly because I'm about to head out :)
  921. # [21:11] <Velmont> gsnedders: Tss, life, it's all a lie!
  922. # [21:11] <gsnedders> But I can a fulfill my purpose in life, to impregnate a couple of girls otherwise?
  923. # [21:12] <Velmont> gsnedders: lol, that's so nasty. You shouldn't say stuff like that, boy!
  924. # [21:12] <Ms2ger> Velmont, land it
  925. # [21:12] <Ms2ger> Velmont, he can do that, he's Scottish
  926. # [21:13] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Aye dinnae no wha' yir oon aboot.
  927. # [21:13] * Velmont installing Mercurial and hunts for his W3C-password
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  941. # [21:45] <timeless> annevk: thanks for complaining about that hg issue
  942. # [21:45] <timeless> that explains why my Chrome had a bunch of "index.html" files to save
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  961. # [22:27] <Velmont> 18:09 < timeless> odinho: i hope you realize that wouldn't work right at all :) <--- way to spoil all the fun!!1
  962. # [22:27] <Velmont> But, yes, I know... It was highly pseudoish code :P (16:41 < odinho> ssh dvcs.w3.org -e sed -Ri 's/DOMString/string/' *)
  963. # [22:28] <timeless> Velmont: specifically dvcs repos can easily be corrupted by people doing stupid things like that
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  1025. # Session Close: Tue Jun 05 00:00:00 2012

The end :)