/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-06-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 06 00:00:02 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:12] <Hixie> anyone know if anyone other than chrome is interested in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2011Nov/0086.html ?
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  17. # [00:19] <hober> Hixie: i don't see the point of the file system api as such, much less this specific proposal
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  19. # [00:21] <Hixie> k
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  23. # [00:30] <zewt> hober: have you not been following it? (it's pretty obvious, I think...)
  24. # [00:30] <zewt> (both of those)
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  30. # [00:45] <hober> zewt: storing and retreiving named chunks of data in the client is already solved by websqldatabase or indexeddb
  31. # [00:46] <hober> zewt: there's no point in adding yet another api to do the same thing
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  33. # [00:48] <zewt> i doubt indexeddb would be suitable for large data (eg. 8GB of data for a game); and fs-api for accessing native files (which the above thread is one early attempt at, iirc) has its own big bag of use cases around accessing user native files with web apps
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  35. # [00:50] <zewt> (i know idb can stored blobs; no real idea how that's shaping up for that sort of usage pattern--personally my main interest in fs-api is bridging the native file gap)
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  38. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> Man, why is Opera on a different timezone from everyone else? Frustrating.
  39. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> I want to ask Morten a question about his flexbox impl.
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  63. # [01:33] <Hixie> TabAtkins: they're closer to being on the standard timezone than we are :-P
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  65. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> Clearly the standard is wrong.
  66. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> (Though they are on the 0 point of Swatch Internet Time, which is cool.)
  67. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> (Though Swatch got that wrong.)
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  71. # [01:43] <Hixie> heh
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  103. # [03:08] * tantek actually has a couple of Swatch BEAT watches that show/use Swatch Internet Time.
  104. # [03:09] <tantek> unfortunately they're still stuck with awkward Gregorian dates. I want a watch that displays ordinal ISO dates - if anyone knows of one (especially one that displays it by default on the "home" screen - without having to push any buttons) let me know.
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  115. # [04:08] <zewt> heh another one
  116. # [04:08] <zewt> i try to search for an order i made on amazon for a surge protector
  117. # [04:08] <zewt> No matches for "Title, Department, Recipient...surge".
  118. # [04:09] <zewt> @placeholder go go go
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  209. # [09:15] <annevk> morning
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  217. # [09:27] <annevk> so replaceContents/empty are like textContent/innerHTML for nodes?
  218. # [09:28] <annevk> hmm
  219. # [09:38] <annevk> seems like Hixie replied to a few emails last light :)
  220. # [09:39] <Ms2ger> The graph does seem to suggest that
  221. # [09:41] <annevk> my inbox too
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  224. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: regarding the Maven absurdity, I admire your persistence
  225. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> I think I would have given up already
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  227. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> annevk: góðan dag
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  229. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> annevk: about "Fixing something bad by introducing a document-global switch", I'm wondering did you have any specific examples in mind
  230. # [10:00] * Quits: Charun (~Charun@rrcs-24-97-184-22.nys.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  231. # [10:00] <annevk> quirks mode is one
  232. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> OK
  233. # [10:00] <annevk> ECMAScript had something similar at some point
  234. # [10:00] <annevk> well proposal for it
  235. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> yeah, I remember that
  236. # [10:00] <annevk> twice actually, first for ES versioning, then for Unicode
  237. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> yeah
  238. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> would you consider the currently specced behavior for meta@name=generator to be a document-global switch?
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  240. # [10:06] <annevk> that doesn't seem like an invasive thing
  241. # [10:06] <annevk> but it does seem similar, sure
  242. # [10:08] * Quits: jryans (~jryans@cpe-70-124-81-135.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: Be back later)
  243. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> yeah, it's certainly less heinous than quirks mode switching on doctype
  244. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> but still seems like an anti-pattern that should be avoided
  245. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> Hixie: about http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2011Nov/0086.html ("Drag-and-drop folders/files support with directory structure using DirectoryEntry")
  246. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> looks like Kinuko's planning to implement it
  247. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> http://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2012-June/020952.html
  248. # [10:14] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  249. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> annevk: have you had a chance to ping John Gregg about the Notifications spec?
  250. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> if there's something I can do to help with it lemme know
  251. # [10:15] <annevk> yeah pinged him several times
  252. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> OK
  253. # [10:15] <annevk> he doesn't seem to have the bandwidth
  254. # [10:15] <annevk> I've been looking at fixing it myself, but it's quite messy
  255. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> maybe we can get Velmont interested
  256. # [10:16] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  257. # [10:16] <annevk> nah I can fix it
  258. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> OK
  259. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> I will get us an extension on the charter
  260. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> next week
  261. # [10:17] <annevk> when does it expire?
  262. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> end of this month
  263. # [10:17] <annevk> k
  264. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> hey if anybody's seen Wilhelm we really need his attention for getting a FPWD for WebDriver started
  265. # [10:21] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  266. # [10:22] <annevk> hmm I forgot, is it fine if a queued task does a potentially long running synchronous task?
  267. # [10:22] <annevk> or should that be in a "asynchronous" section
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  294. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> "MS share contracts"?
  295. # [11:20] * Quits: pyrsmk (~pyrsmk@186.212.140.88.rev.sfr.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  296. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/rem/status/210297546134929408
  297. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> oh
  298. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh464906.aspx I guess
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  302. # [11:26] <tantek> MikeSmith - the real question is - what is the concept called in BlackBerryOS - which had such device/app messaging abstractions before Android did.
  303. # [11:29] * Quits: dgathright (~dgathrigh@c-67-169-92-165.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  304. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> tantek: we seem to be on the road here that leads to Web developers needing to write code for several different browser-proprietary ways for addressing the same use cases
  305. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> I guess it's possible some library could provide an abstraction on top of it all
  306. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> but it would be a large missed opportunity if we can't get agreement on some standard way that Web devs can use to do this
  307. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> cross-browser
  308. # [11:37] <jgraham> annevk: Long running synchronous things would block the event loop
  309. # [11:38] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-170-213-52.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  310. # [11:38] <jgraham> (even if they happen in a task that is async with respect to the original DOM method invocation)
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  313. # [11:38] <jgraham> (or whtever else causes the task to be fired)
  314. # [11:39] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.193.125.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  315. # [11:40] <jgraham> MikeSmith: What use cases are you talking about?
  316. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> easily sharing things through whatever particular Web apps you'd like
  317. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> or sending things to particular Web apps you'd like to do something with them
  318. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> without needing to navigate a massive sheet of buttons for every known service in the universe
  319. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> and without being restricted to some set up apps somebody else has decided to restrict you to
  320. # [11:42] <annevk> jgraham: yeah that makes sense
  321. # [11:43] <annevk> jgraham: so it needs to be an asynchronous section
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  333. # [12:08] <hsivonen> Does Maxthon ship a given snapshot of WebKit-Chromium earlier than Chrome?
  334. # [12:08] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
  335. # [12:08] <hsivonen> or: Why does Maxthon score higher than Chrome but lower than upcoming Chromium on html5test.com?
  336. # [12:08] * Ms2ger thought it used trident
  337. # [12:09] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I believe it uses Trident and WebKit-Chromium and has some sort of heuristic for deciding which one to use for which site
  338. # [12:09] <Ms2ger> Fascinating
  339. # [12:09] <hsivonen> or maybe it's based on a curated list of sites rather than a heuristic
  340. # [12:14] <AryehGregor> So how does that work with, say, respecting user preferences cross-site?
  341. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> html5test.com would seem to be a lot more useful if it documented the criteria and provided the actual tests it uses
  342. # [12:22] <Ms2ger> And if it had useful tests
  343. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> yeah
  344. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> instead of arbitrary tests created by one single dude based on personal whims
  345. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> god the fascination that grown-up men in Japan have with the pseudo-drama around AKB48 members is really nauseating. This TV commercial keeps showing a clip of one the "graduated" ones crying and saying "You can hate me but please don't hate AKB48". And it's for real and I guess supposed to be emotionally moving but it just makes me want to really pummel whoever the intended audience is
  346. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> and for anybody who doesn't know what AKB48 is, count yourself lucky. seriously
  347. # [12:27] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  348. # [12:31] * Ms2ger doesn't look it up, then
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  356. # [13:02] <roc> I looked it up, but Google didn't work
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  359. # [13:07] <hsivonen> What SSH client is one supposed to use on Windows these days? Putty still?
  360. # [13:07] <Ms2ger> I think so
  361. # [13:07] <hsivonen> ok. thanks
  362. # [13:08] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-104-107.dynamic.t-2.net)
  363. # [13:08] <roc> I just use msys ssh
  364. # [13:11] <hsivonen> So msys ssh is plain OpenSSH running under cmd?
  365. # [13:11] <roc> it looks like it
  366. # [13:12] <hsivonen> does cmd support the sort of curses irssi and screen use?
  367. # [13:15] <roc> oh, I'm running under mintty.exe actually
  368. # [13:15] * Joins: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@host-89-241-111-249.as13285.net)
  369. # [13:16] <hsivonen> yay. getting crypto software from a http: site
  370. # [13:20] <hsivonen> yay. 16-color icons.
  371. # [13:25] <tantek> MikeSmith - re: developers needing to write code for several different browser-proprietary ways for addressing the same use cases - there hasn't been enough experimentation to come up with even a good minimal solution - that's part of the problem.
  372. # [13:26] <tantek> As I noted in the WebApps WG f2f in MSFT SVC - Google's Web Intents seem to have an even bigger (apparently ever growing?) scope that I had thought was already far bigger than use-cases have shown a need for.
  373. # [13:27] <MikeSmith> tantek: but in the mean time as with other cases, there's a vacuum the OS+browser vendors are going to fill one way or another
  374. # [13:27] <tantek> As far as fearing developers writing code for such technologies - most of the approaches to date are overdesigned and don't take into account developer (and publisher!) motivations.
  375. # [13:27] <tantek> MikeSmith, historically browsers have experimented with numerous things like this - most of which get ignored by developers
  376. # [13:28] <tantek> and some of which is eventually abandoned by browsers as well
  377. # [13:28] <tantek> I've been quite surprised at all the experiments that IE/Windows has abandoned for example, despite having a large marketshare etc., and potentially numerous developers using such experiments
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  379. # [13:29] <tantek> (all the stuff they recently - a few months ago? - noted in a blog post were being dropped)
  380. # [13:29] <annevk> hsivonen: Windows -> cygwin?
  381. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> tantek: I think Webkit experimental features that have mobile use cases as a priority target perhaps have a lot less potential to get dropped
  382. # [13:32] <tantek> MikeSmith - except those Webkit features were never shipped as "experimental" - from the day Apple announced and demo'd them - they were intended to be a solid part of the web platform
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  384. # [13:32] <tantek> plus no one shipped any alternatives, and they were put on a standards track (albeit far too slowly)
  385. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> fair enough
  386. # [13:33] <tantek> also - to be fair to Apple, the design of animations, transitions, transformations (just to name a few) was quite good
  387. # [13:33] * Joins: Charun (~Charun@rrcs-24-97-184-22.nys.biz.rr.com)
  388. # [13:33] <tantek> and I'm not sure the time cost of the revisions/improvements in the CSSWG have been worth it. others may have different opinions.
  389. # [13:33] <hsivonen> The UI of PuTTY is confusing. I'm going to try mintty later in order to get a familiar ssh binary.
  390. # [13:34] <tantek> nonetheless - there's some forward progress there with standardization, especially unprefixing, so I have some hope there.
  391. # [13:35] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@nat/opera/x-jcoqrtuckohwyauz)
  392. # [13:36] <hsivonen> annevk: cygwin just for running ssh seems like an overkill
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  394. # [13:41] <annevk> tantek: there's some forward progress indeed, there's also tremendous damage which requires vendors to waste time on copying each others prefixes
  395. # [13:42] <tantek> annevk - or at least waste time studying and arguing if we have to or not
  396. # [13:42] <tantek> no doubt the progress is too slow, no matter how fast it is at this point.
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  398. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: how much longer before I can get today's Firefox Nightly
  399. # [13:59] <Ms2ger> What OS? The Linux one seems finished
  400. # [14:02] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  401. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: OSX
  402. # [14:06] <Ms2ger> Looks like that finished right when you asked
  403. # [14:06] <Ms2ger> Not sure how long it takes to get to you from there, though
  404. # [14:08] <AryehGregor> tantek, my opinion is that the design of transforms was overall very good, especially 2D transforms, and not much was gained by revisions in the CSSWG (which anyway more or less didn't occur).
  405. # [14:09] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@host-89-241-111-249.as13285.net) (Quit: barnabywalters)
  406. # [14:09] <AryehGregor> I'm still a bit ambivalent about 3D transforms, namely the whole question of the transform-style/perspective/perspective-origin properties, but I wasn't able to come up with anything better.
  407. # [14:09] <AryehGregor> Gradients, however, wound up being much nicer after work by the CSSWG, AIUI.
  408. # [14:11] <tantek> AryehGregor - what you're saying sounds about right from my experience watching the revisions (or attempts) in the CSSWG
  409. # [14:11] <tantek> I suppose the challenge is not knowing when (if?) such attempts at iteration will make any improvements
  410. # [14:12] <hsivonen> Is it just a coincidence that the syntax changes at the CSS WG if TabAtkins edits? (Gradients, Flexbox)
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  416. # [14:18] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, well, it's not a coincidence that the syntax doesn't change if no one edits (transforms, transitions, animations).
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  418. # [14:23] <roc> heh
  419. # [14:24] <roc> gradients syntax had to change, because Webkit gradients really sucked
  420. # [14:24] <roc> it didn't have to change more than once though
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  426. # [14:50] <annevk> does HTML have some hook for supported image format?
  427. # [14:52] <annevk> not really it seems
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  441. # [15:30] <tantek> annevk - what do you mean by "hook for supported image format?"
  442. # [15:30] <tantek> there's object fallback
  443. # [15:31] <tantek> <object type="image/svg+xml" href="…"><object type="image/png" href="…">alt text</object></object>
  444. # [15:32] <tantek> btw annevk - I'm fine with using public-webapps list for Fullscreen. Any existing related list is better than creating yet another list.
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  462. # [16:09] <annevk> tantek: the term "supported image format"
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  467. # [16:20] <AryehGregor> annevk, I thought it made the list of supported image formats totally undefined?
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  470. # [16:32] <annevk> sure, but that's not relevant
  471. # [16:32] <annevk> an image format is still either supported or not supported
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  483. # [16:42] <annevk> MikeSmith: getting there with cleaning up notifications
  484. # [16:42] <annevk> MikeSmith: the whole permission stuff was not done yet and everything that was done was up for a rewrite of sorts...
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  486. # [16:42] <annevk> still need to do bidi
  487. # [16:42] <annevk> bidi :(
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  492. # [16:52] <[tm]> annevk: progress not perfection
  493. # [16:52] <[tm]> anyway, thanks
  494. # [16:53] <annevk> I doubt I'll get it perfect, but hopefully better :)
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  504. # [17:24] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: I just really, *really* like changing the syntax of things late in development. It makes me happy.
  505. # [17:24] <Ms2ger> I KNEW it
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  579. # [20:11] <deadowl> Concerning the time element, wouldn't it make sense if you could specify default timezone, and possibly year, in the head using a meta tag?
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  582. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> jgraham, this timeout patch....
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  585. # [20:22] <tantek> deadowl - info in meta tags tends to rot and get out of sync. it's fairly well accepted that putting data in meta tags is an anti-pattern.
  586. # [20:23] <tantek> especially something like timezone which changes twice a year for most folks
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  592. # [20:44] <deadowl> It would be easier to use the timezone database and specify America/New_York in a meta tag or a header than to markup -04:00 and -05:00 for changes relative to GMT.
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  594. # [20:44] <deadowl> Especially since people tend to publish for a single timezone.
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  621. # [21:18] <zcorpan> annevk: "so it needs to be an asynchronous section" - the spec has "synchronous section" but not "asynchronous section". for stuff that should run async, it usually just says "return but continue the remaining steps async"
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  758. # [23:33] <matzipan> boo
  759. # [23:33] <matzipan> oh not here
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  776. # Session Close: Thu Jun 07 00:00:00 2012

The end :)