/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-06-07 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  55. # [01:59] <zewt> http://www.gotmow.com/Sign-Up-Online i wonder if I'm the first person to even question the fact that http + cc# entry
  56. # [01:59] <TabAtkins> Probably, yes.
  57. # [01:59] <zewt> the whole "only sometimes secure" model is just useless
  58. # [01:59] <zewt> (it's actually an https form, but of course it's still insecure, since you could mitm the form itself)
  59. # [02:00] <zewt> (but I'm not even going to try explaining that to someone who runs a lawn mowing business)
  60. # [02:00] <Hixie> aw, i thought "got mow" was a reference to cats
  61. # [02:00] <Hixie> now i'm sad
  62. # [02:02] * tantek looks for a picture of a cat.
  63. # [02:03] <tantek> http://statigr.am/p/203021528894527247_2975244
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  65. # [02:04] <tantek> and there's much more at http://statigr.am/tag/catsofinstagram/
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  67. # [02:05] <Hixie> i am not lacking in pictures of cats :-P
  68. # [02:10] <astearns> http://mubi.com/films/rent-a-cat
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  170. # [07:21] <annevk> zcorpan, yeah that's what I use too
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  181. # [07:49] <annevk> thanks for filing that bug Ms2ger
  182. # [07:49] <annevk> I forgot about it :(
  183. # [07:50] <annevk> I think I reached the point where people have to file bugs or otherwise it's unlikely to happen
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  185. # [08:03] <annevk> Hixie: if an API needs to be scoped to a certain origin, what terminology should be used?
  186. # [08:03] <annevk> I guess that's an overly broad question...
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  188. # [08:05] <annevk> Hixie: there's one API to that enables a particular origin to make use of the API; the other API is dependent on that
  189. # [08:05] <annevk> Hixie: Notification.requestPermission(callback) -> new Notification()
  190. # [08:07] <annevk> I guess if I talk about the "origin" with that referencing HTML I should probably be okay
  191. # [08:10] <annevk> so does roc's blog post mean https://twitter.com/rocallahan is fake?
  192. # [08:10] <annevk> or is twitter not a social network?
  193. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> I thought I remember roc saying long ago that he didn't use twitter
  194. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> maybe he set up the account but never used it
  195. # [08:18] <Hixie> annevk: i'd have to see more context to answer that
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  197. # [08:21] <annevk> Hixie: k, I checked it in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/notifications/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  198. # [08:22] <annevk> Hixie: search for "origin" and "If notifications are not allowed" (that needs to do the origin/permission check somehow)
  199. # [08:23] <Hixie> "The conceptual "default", but meaning "granted" does not exist." is grammatically bogus, btw. try "There is no equivalent of "default" meaning "granted"." or some such
  200. # [08:23] <Hixie> equivalent to, rather
  201. # [08:23] <annevk> thanks
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  203. # [08:24] <Hixie> the origin stuff there seems right to me
  204. # [08:25] <Hixie> certainly i'd say it's no less tight than what i have for things like storage
  205. # [08:25] <annevk> sweet
  206. # [08:26] <Hixie> that reminds me, i had some question for you
  207. # [08:26] * Hixie tries to recall what it was
  208. # [08:26] <Hixie> something abotu xhr
  209. # [08:27] <Hixie> oh, right
  210. # [08:27] <Hixie> what's the status of "chunked-text" and "chunked-arraybuffer"?
  211. # [08:28] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2012AprJun/0859.html
  212. # [08:29] <Hixie> ah, thanks
  213. # [08:30] <Hixie> oh hey that was like mere days ago
  214. # [08:30] <Hixie> wonder how i missed that
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  218. # [08:44] <annevk> MikeSmith: is there an option for DB-backed plus anyone who subscribes?
  219. # [08:44] <annevk> MikeSmith: I think that would be better for the Web Notifications WG
  220. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> annevk: isn't that the way I already have it set up?
  221. # [08:48] * MikeSmith looks
  222. # [08:49] <annevk> MikeSmith: oh
  223. # [08:50] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@76-220-18-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: dydx)
  224. # [08:50] <hsivonen> annevk: how is the MS thing a "just have" thing compared to chunked-*? Isn't chunked-* much simpler?
  225. # [08:50] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@61.12.96.242) (Remote host closed the connection)
  226. # [08:50] <annevk> another thing that bugs me is that it's public-web-notification / TR/notifications / hg/notifications
  227. # [08:50] <annevk> hsivonen: for whom?
  228. # [08:51] <hsivonen> annevk: for Gecko, WebKit and Presto
  229. # [08:51] <annevk> isn't it about developers?
  230. # [08:51] <annevk> and also, Stream seems likely to happen
  231. # [08:52] <annevk> I have not seen anyone oppose that
  232. # [08:52] <annevk> and having two APIs for the same thing...
  233. # [08:52] <annevk> MikeSmith: https://www.w3.org/services/list-audit/query?queryList=public-web-notification says no
  234. # [08:52] <hsivonen> annevk: doesn't the stream thing need buffering potentially tons of data? the whole point of chunked-* is that it's not buffered up
  235. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> annevk: I guess that naming inconsistency doesn't bug me nearly as much as the many other things that really bug me
  236. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: ok, checking now
  237. # [08:53] <annevk> MikeSmith: true enough
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  239. # [08:53] <hsivonen> annevk: in the steam case, it seems script pulls from the stream. in the chunked-* case, XHR pushes data to the script
  240. # [08:53] <Hixie> is there a unix command line program that will just report a file's last modification time as a unix time_t to the console?
  241. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> cough fullscreen cough
  242. # [08:53] <annevk> haha
  243. # [08:53] <annevk> you mean glazman
  244. # [08:53] <Hixie> (i can do it in perl if necessary, but if there's one already...)
  245. # [08:53] <annevk> hsivonen: that's probably a point worth making on the list
  246. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> Hixie: there is one but I can't remember the name
  247. # [08:54] * MikeSmith tries thinking harder
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  249. # [08:58] <hsivonen> hmm. can the File API block the UI thread on reads?
  250. # [08:59] * hsivonen mumbles about mount points that are actually backed by network shares
  251. # [08:59] <Hixie> i thought the file api was designed to be incredibly non-blocking
  252. # [09:00] <hsivonen> ok. then I'm misunderstanding something
  253. # [09:00] <annevk> hsivonen: are you going to make that point on the list?
  254. # [09:00] <hsivonen> annevk: yes. after breakfast
  255. # [09:00] <annevk> hsivonen: thanks; I guess with that the "other implementor" question still stands
  256. # [09:01] <annevk> but if true it does seem more justified
  257. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> annevk: I don't know why I set the list up to not be DB-backed but if you want I can ask to have it changed
  258. # [09:04] <MikeSmith> I can't change the config myself directly
  259. # [09:05] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@61.12.96.242)
  260. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> Hixie: isn't "stat -f %a FOO" what you want?
  261. # [09:05] <Hixie> aha, thanks!
  262. # [09:05] <Hixie> forgot about stat
  263. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> yeah, me too
  264. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> had to look at info coreutils
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  266. # [09:10] <annevk> MikeSmith: maybe because the WG was not around when the list was setup; but yeah, lets change it
  267. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> OK
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  272. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK, request sent
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  275. # [09:26] <annevk> man
  276. # [09:26] <annevk> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/team-webapps/2012Jun/0022.html is comedy gold
  277. # [09:26] <annevk> too bad nobody but the Team can read it
  278. # [09:27] <hsivonen> annevk: are you CCed or do chairs have Team access?
  279. # [09:27] <annevk> cc'd
  280. # [09:28] <annevk> only the Team has Team access afaik; not even AB
  281. # [09:32] * Quits: sarspazam (~sarspazam@78-105-183-7.zone3.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: sarspazam)
  282. # [09:32] <annevk> the 401 error for that seems bogus btw; suggests all you need is Member access
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  288. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about meta generator, i'm wondering what you think about the idea of minting a new meta name value that generator tools could emit instead, for the explicit purpose of indicating that they're not providing alternative text for images
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  293. # [09:48] <Hixie> annevk: spill the beans man!
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  300. # [10:04] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.64.130)
  301. # [10:04] <Ms2ger> Good morning, #whatwg
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  306. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: bonan posttagmezon
  307. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> wow, is the Tracking WG really saying that UAs can't turn DNT on by default?
  308. # [10:13] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@193-64-20-130-nat.elisa-mobile.fi)
  309. # [10:17] <annevk> that's so silly
  310. # [10:20] <Ms2ger> That makes a lot of sense
  311. # [10:21] <Ms2ger> If you turn it on by default, it's just going to be ignored
  312. # [10:21] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.193.125.getinternet.no)
  313. # [10:21] <annevk> not with the legislation that's behind it
  314. # [10:22] <annevk> and if you don't turn it on by default, it's only 1% of the users that's going to bother
  315. # [10:22] <annevk> the people that prolly already use tor or some such
  316. # [10:22] * Joins: Zauberfisch (~Zauberfis@2a01:4f8:100:73c3::3)
  317. # [10:22] <Ms2ger> I heard a figure of 10% with Firefox users
  318. # [10:26] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@166.137.8.76)
  319. # [10:26] <jgraham> In reality the problem is that the concept is silly
  320. # [10:26] <jgraham> Nobody *wants* to be tracked
  321. # [10:28] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@166.137.8.76) (Client Quit)
  322. # [10:28] <annevk> MikeSmith: could it be that I'm hardcoded to be on the public-web-notification list too?
  323. # [10:28] <annevk> MikeSmith: with annevk@opera.com that is
  324. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> oh
  325. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> yeah man
  326. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> sorry
  327. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> will fix that now
  328. # [10:28] <annevk> no worries
  329. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK, removed you now
  330. # [10:30] <annevk> sweet
  331. # [10:31] <annevk> MikeSmith: so provided other people in the notifications WG agree, there's something we can publish now...
  332. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> yeah
  333. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> thanks for putting the time into
  334. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> *into it
  335. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> it will make it much easier to get the charter extended
  336. # [10:41] <Ms2ger> annevk, np (for the bug)
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  340. # [10:50] <annevk> guess I should fix that now
  341. # [10:52] <Ms2ger> I have to say I was surprised how many bugs these tests caught
  342. # [10:54] * Quits: hasather (davidh@nat/opera/x-cimxsvlhjrmqxfsf) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  343. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> speaking of tests, http://w3c-test.org/html/tests/submission/Opera/microdata/001.html looks great in Firefox Nightly
  344. # [10:54] * Quits: annevk (annevk@nat/opera/x-ldrzanayoeiiavzd) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  345. # [10:55] <Ms2ger> Well, yes, David fixed the test :)
  346. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: oh
  347. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> that makes a lot of them fail in Opera now I guess
  348. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> Opera is now 274 Pass / 63 Fail
  349. # [10:59] * Ms2ger wants the framework to support multiple tests in one file already
  350. # [10:59] <Ms2ger> And preferably without me doing any work for it
  351. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> heh
  352. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> that's the hard part
  353. # [11:01] <jgraham> Ms2ger: The W3C framework?
  354. # [11:01] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  355. # [11:02] <jgraham> Why do you care? (serious question)
  356. # [11:02] * Quits: Kasey (~kkellydes@75.60.187.213) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  357. # [11:04] <hsivonen> bizarre. Windows 8 Consumer Preview gets security updates but not an automatic update to Release Preview
  358. # [11:04] <hsivonen> why do they bother supporting Consumer Preview instead of upgrading it to Release Preview
  359. # [11:04] <hsivonen> ?
  360. # [11:06] * Joins: Kasey (~kkellydes@adsl-75-49-5-235.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net)
  361. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: in standalone context or as used in the the validator backend, if the vnu HTML parser can't otherwise determine a document's character encoding, does it always assume windows-1252 as the default encoding or does it user some other heuristics to try to choose a default?
  362. # [11:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: depends on the heuristic detector setting
  363. # [11:07] * hsivonen looks up the API
  364. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  365. # [11:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I know in the validator backend, it uses both the chardet code and the ICU code
  366. # [11:08] <hsivonen> http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/apidocs/nu/validator/htmlparser/sax/HtmlParser.html#setHeuristics%28nu.validator.htmlparser.common.Heuristics%29
  367. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks
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  375. # [11:20] <annevk> Ms2ger: in our unreviewed spec algorithms? or in browsers?
  376. # [11:21] <Ms2ger> In browsers
  377. # [11:21] <Ms2ger> The spec bugs didn't really surprise me :)
  378. # [11:22] <annevk> I feel somewhat bad about them though
  379. # [11:25] <Ms2ger> Pff
  380. # [11:26] <Ms2ger> Look at parsing/serialization, you won't feel bad after that :)
  381. # [11:27] <annevk> not my work :p
  382. # [11:27] * Quits: izhak (~izhak@31.29.2.23) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  383. # [11:27] <Ms2ger> Exactly :)
  384. # [11:29] <AryehGregor> DNT is completely pointless anyway except from a political perspective. It's a way to pressure websites by saying "See, you're going against the explicit wishes of users!" even though everyone knows perfectly well that the large majority of users want that regardless of whether they say so in their browser preferences.
  385. # [11:30] <AryehGregor> It becomes a much weaker signal if it's opt-out instead of opt-in, because then you have to make the political argument "You should only be doing this if users explicitly consent!"
  386. # [11:30] <AryehGregor> But it's only a political move anyway. I believe someone in this channel once compared it to posting a sign on your car that says "Please do not break the windows." Well, no kidding.
  387. # [11:31] <AryehGregor> If users are asked in the abstract whether they want to be tracked, of course they'll say no. Per se, almost nobody wants to be tracked. The question is whether that cost is worth the benefit of greater ad revenue and therefore better free services.
  388. # [11:32] <AryehGregor> DNT trumpets the cost without paying any attention to the benefit.
  389. # [11:33] <AryehGregor> Very easy for organizations like Microsoft or Mozilla that don't see that benefit directly, and only see it accruing to Google, who's their rival or semi-rival.
  390. # [11:34] <AryehGregor> But from the perspective of the web as a whole, ad revenue is what keeps half of it propped up, and things that increase ad revenue are really important.
  391. # [11:34] <AryehGregor> But anyway.
  392. # [11:34] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, annevk: You should never, ever be surprised at finding mounds of browser bugs when you write tests.
  393. # [11:34] <Ms2ger> Clearly
  394. # [11:34] <AryehGregor> This is why, ideally, you should write tests in conjunction with the spec.
  395. # [11:34] <AryehGregor> Preferably tests that are thorough to the point of being arguably pathological.
  396. # [11:35] <Ms2ger> I'm doing my best :)
  397. # [11:35] <AryehGregor> Link?
  398. # [11:35] <Ms2ger> http://w3c-test.org/webapps/DOMCore/tests/submissions/Ms2ger/Node-replaceChild.html / http://w3c-test.org/webapps/DOMCore/tests/submissions/Ms2ger/Node-insertBefore.html
  399. # [11:35] <jgraham> Given the choice just have the pathological tests and not the ones for other cases :)
  400. # [11:36] <Ms2ger> jgraham, exactly :)
  401. # [11:36] <jgraham> Although of course it is harder to think of pathological cases
  402. # [11:38] <annevk> AryehGregor: when I found out you were able to write much much much more comprehensive tests than I ever dreamed of I sort of gave up writing new tests
  403. # [11:40] <jgraham> So AryehGregor is actually having a negative effect on testing by discouraging others from doing it
  404. # [11:40] <jgraham> :)
  405. # [11:40] <annevk> I wouldn't quite put it that way, but I think that's what happened subconsciously for me
  406. # [11:41] <annevk> There's also enough spec bugs to fix
  407. # [11:47] <jgraham> I wonder if the range tests we unusually easy to automate or if there is something we should learn to make other testsuites more comprehensive
  408. # [11:47] * AryehGregor should write more DOM tests at some point
  409. # [11:47] <AryehGregor> jgraham, there should be no big difference between Range and most other DOM features.
  410. # [11:47] <AryehGregor> There are other classes of features that can't be automated at all the same way, though.
  411. # [11:48] <AryehGregor> I wrote similar types of tests for Selection and HTML attribute reflection, FWIW.
  412. # [11:48] <jgraham> Yeah. I guess at the moment I am mostly not writing tests for DOM features per-se
  413. # [11:48] <AryehGregor> There are lots of requirements that are much harder to test.
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  415. # [11:48] <jgraham> More like script scheduling, navigation, document loading, etc.
  416. # [11:48] <AryehGregor> Like, say, requirements about loading web pages require a basically different approach because the tests can't be self-contained.
  417. # [11:48] <AryehGregor> Yeah, those things are harder.
  418. # [11:49] <jgraham> I don't really know how to do better than "try to think of specific evil cases" there
  419. # [11:49] <AryehGregor> DOM stuff is easy because you can do it all in JS.
  420. # [11:49] <jgraham> Right
  421. # [11:49] <AryehGregor> Likewise, anything involving rendering is automatically harder.
  422. # [11:49] * Quits: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.222.120) (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
  423. # [11:49] <AryehGregor> Although better reftesting frameworks could alleviate that.
  424. # [11:50] <AryehGregor> Mozilla's mochitests (test pages in JS) can do reftesting too.
  425. # [11:55] <annevk> Ms2ger: 1. doctype is or is following child 2. child is doctype or doctype is following child
  426. # [11:55] <annevk> I guess 2
  427. # [11:55] <annevk> verbose requirements are verbose :(
  428. # [11:56] <annevk> hmm
  429. # [11:56] <annevk> the usage of either would not be correct either
  430. # [11:56] <annevk> man...
  431. # [11:56] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@166.137.8.76)
  432. # [11:59] <AryehGregor> "inclusively following"!
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  435. # [12:01] <annevk> AryehGregor: should we add it?
  436. # [12:01] <AryehGregor> Eh.
  437. # [12:01] <AryehGregor> Not sure.
  438. # [12:01] * Quits: hij1nx (~hij1nx@166.137.8.76) (Client Quit)
  439. # [12:01] <annevk> instead I'll add a note about it in the source
  440. # [12:01] <annevk> in case more of this comes up
  441. # [12:02] <AryehGregor> In math, the same kind of thing comes up with "less than". It can mean either "strictly less than" or "less than or equal to". People are usually lazy and don't specify.
  442. # [12:02] <AryehGregor> Because it's such a common phrase and it's awkward to make it longer.
  443. # [12:02] <AryehGregor> The "<" symbol is used ambiguously too.
  444. # [12:03] <AryehGregor> A lot of times people will use ⪇ if they really mean "and not equal to".
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  449. # [12:03] <AryehGregor> (Unicode also has ≨, but I don't think I've seen that used.)
  450. # [12:03] <annevk> :)
  451. # [12:06] <annevk> aah fuck
  452. # [12:06] <annevk> Ms2ger: does this not apply to replace?
  453. # [12:07] <annevk> no because there the child is replaced
  454. # [12:07] <annevk> aah
  455. # [12:07] <annevk> so this was the result of copypasta most likely
  456. # [12:07] <annevk> and I just "fixed" the wrong set of steps
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  463. # [12:31] <AryehGregor> Yay, it looks like sanity is finally prevailing vis-a-vis prefixing: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2012/06/06/moving-the-stable-web-forward-in-ie10-release-preview.aspx
  464. # [12:32] <AryehGregor> That looks a lot like dbaron's recent proposal for Mozilla.
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  469. # [12:40] <jgraham> AryehGregor: What are the requirements you had in mind for "better frameworks for reftesting"
  470. # [12:40] <jgraham> or what does Mochitest do?
  471. # [12:41] <Ms2ger> We have canvas.drawWindow
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  473. # [12:42] <jgraham> That doesn't tell me much :)
  474. # [12:42] <jgraham> (I don't know all the implementation details of your reftest setup)
  475. # [12:43] <AryehGregor> jgraham, basically I just want a page to be able to take multiple snapshots that it can compare, instead of requiring one test per window load.
  476. # [12:43] <AryehGregor> I want one page that can do thousands of reftests per second.
  477. # [12:43] <AryehGregor> That's not doable if each one is a page load.
  478. # [12:46] <jgraham> Generating the ref and the test in realtime? I guess that could work
  479. # [12:48] <jgraham> I think in principle we could do that via watir, but it is a bit evil. And we were going to have a reftest type where the ref and the test were both elements in a single document, but we eventually ditched that idea (which I think was a very good move)
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  488. # [13:12] <hsivonen> "Commercial video" seems to require all the bad things
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  490. # [13:18] <annevk> it's like the fonts debacle, but worse
  491. # [13:19] <AryehGregor> Because normal people actually care about video, unlike fonts.
  492. # [13:21] <jgraham> Isn't that code for "because video is a much more profitable industry than fonts"?
  493. # [13:21] <annevk> prolly because all of their DRM :p
  494. # [13:22] <AryehGregor> jgraham, well, they're related, obviously, but not intrinsically so. There are unprofitable things that people are very concerned about, like privacy; and profitable things people don't care for at all, like lawyers.
  495. # [13:22] <AryehGregor> In this case they coincide, yes.
  496. # [13:25] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@pat-bgp.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  497. # [13:26] <AryehGregor> Why do ranges use PRInt32 instead of PRUint32 for offsets?
  498. # [13:26] <AryehGregor> Argh!
  499. # [13:26] <AryehGregor> Wrong channel again.
  500. # [13:26] * AryehGregor hides from Ms2ger
  501. # [13:26] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: my guess is that this MPEG-2 thing is about old terrestrial to cable relay regulations that prohibit recompression
  502. # [13:27] <Ms2ger> Going to blame hsivonen now?
  503. # [13:27] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, DOM2
  504. # [13:27] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  505. # [13:29] <hsivonen> FWIW, all normal people who are aware of the relay regulations tend to think the regulations are dumb
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  507. # [13:32] <jgraham> AryehGregor: /ignore Ms2ger should solve all your problems :)
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  511. # [13:42] <smaug____> MikeSmith: how can I change my w3 bugzilla email address
  512. # [13:42] <smaug____> "Name and Password" is missing the normal bugzilla email field
  513. # [13:44] <MikeSmith> smaug____: I think you can't but I can
  514. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> if it's normally exposed to users but W3C bugzilla does not expose it, I don't know why it's not
  515. # [13:45] <smaug____> it is other bugzilla instances I use
  516. # [13:45] <smaug____> only W3C doesn't have it
  517. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> lemme see if there's some global admin setting I can flip
  518. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> bugzilla engrievens me
  519. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> smaug____: please try again from you preferences now
  520. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> I found the allowemailchange admin setting
  521. # [13:48] <smaug____> MikeSmith: ah, now it is there
  522. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> cool
  523. # [13:48] <smaug____> thanks
  524. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> np
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  532. # [14:13] <hsivonen> there's clearly a world view difference between browser supporting X, Y and Z and publishers deal with it and publishers already having infrastructure for A, B and C and browser dealing with it
  533. # [14:13] <jgraham> Hmm, how are @defer and @async supposed to interact with createContextualFragment?
  534. # [14:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: IIRC, as if the nodes were created with createElement, but my recollection might fail me
  535. # [14:15] <jgraham> Seems to be waht gecko does, but I haven't found the spec-wise justification quite yet
  536. # [14:15] <jgraham> (haven't looked hard yet either)
  537. # [14:16] <hsivonen> jgraham: that was an area where Firefox had to go ahead of Hixie, so it's possible stuff got forgotten from spec
  538. # [14:17] <hsivonen> jgraham: based on another channel, spec-based justification will appear soon :-)
  539. # [14:17] <jgraham> There are other channels?
  540. # [14:17] <jgraham> ;)
  541. # [14:17] <hsivonen> #developrs on irc.mozilla.org
  542. # [14:17] <hsivonen> #developers even
  543. # [14:18] <jgraham> So I should assume the spec(s) are wrong here?
  544. # [14:18] <hsivonen> yes
  545. # [14:18] <jgraham> 'K
  546. # [14:18] <jgraham> Thanks
  547. # [14:18] <Ms2ger> Appeared
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  549. # [14:19] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: thanks
  550. # [14:19] <Ms2ger> Np
  551. # [14:20] <jgraham> Takk
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  564. # [14:45] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I seem to recall you had some comment about the timout patch for testharness.js, but I don't recall what it eas
  565. # [14:45] <jgraham> *was
  566. # [14:45] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@209.20.29.228)
  567. # [14:45] <Ms2ger> Yes
  568. # [14:46] <Ms2ger> Why you haven't landed it yet :)
  569. # [14:46] <jgraham> I guess landing what I already have works and if you did have another comment we can address it later
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  571. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> If I had another comment, I can't remember what it was
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  575. # [14:59] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Pushed
  576. # [14:59] <Ms2ger> Thanks
  577. # [14:59] <jgraham> Also, who thought that hg's merge conflict ui was acceptable
  578. # [14:59] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@61.12.96.242) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  579. # [15:00] <jgraham> hg resolve -m -> mark file as resolved
  580. # [15:00] <AryehGregor> jgraham, who thought that anything about hg was acceptable?
  581. # [15:00] <jgraham> hg resolve -> undo the merge you just did and go back to the unmerged state
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  589. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/fantasai/status/210595248638922752 ah-hoo-ga
  590. # [15:26] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
  591. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> twitter would be way more fun if you could mod other people's tweets up and down
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  594. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> or if twitter had a poop button to let you poop on tweets
  595. # [15:34] * karlcow read poo on tweets and thought it was already the essence of twitter
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  602. # [15:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: RT is mod up
  603. # [15:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: "up" as in more visible that is
  604. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> yeah
  605. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> but would be great to have a down too
  606. # [15:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: does there exist an hg-compatible visual merge tool for Linux that doesn't depend on the whole of KDE yet?
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  608. # [15:54] <jgraham> hsivonen: No idea, I mostly resolve mege conflicts by hand
  609. # [15:55] <jgraham> I have a feeling that this makes me A Bad Person, but merge tools generally confuse the hell out of me
  610. # [15:55] <jgraham> Whereas emacs + >>>> ==== <<<< is rather simple
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  612. # [15:56] <jgraham> (does meld not work with hg?)
  613. # [15:56] <hsivonen> I don't know what meld is
  614. # [15:57] <jgraham> http://meldmerge.org/
  615. # [15:57] <hsivonen> thanks
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  617. # [15:58] <hsivonen> I have resolved merge conflicts from .rej even since it was discovered that hg pull --rebase corrupted the repo
  618. # [15:58] <hsivonen> before that I used kdiff3
  619. # [15:59] <jgraham> The idea of rebase corrupting the repo is terrifying
  620. # [16:00] <jgraham> (rebasing local work seems like a fundamental operation in a dvcs to me)
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  625. # [16:03] <zewt> i've avoided looking at hg; the sudden fragmentation in versioning tools (git, hg, bzr) makes me unwilling to spend time on it
  626. # [16:04] <zewt> also, that was a fascinating spambug
  627. # [16:04] <annevk> MikeSmith: I like wycats' reply to fantasai
  628. # [16:05] <jgraham> zewt: The situation is rather simple. bzr should be ignored unless you are working on gnome. hg is like git but with an initially shallower, but quite quickly steeper, learning curve.
  629. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah
  630. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> annevk: so can we go straight to LCWD with the Notifications spec, or do you want to just do another normal WD first?
  631. # [16:07] <zewt> git sort of has the feel of cvs, in that it seems like five or ten years down the line there'll be enough experience with it to make something like it that isn't clumsy and annoying (eg. svn)
  632. # [16:08] <annevk> MikeSmith: prefer WD first
  633. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> annevk: are there any remaining issues unresolved now? (it seems like you solved the BIDI one)
  634. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK
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  636. # [16:08] <annevk> MikeSmith: then couple of weeks later a LC unless people suddenly come up with issues (they usually do if something is published after such a long time with changes)
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  638. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  639. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> true that
  640. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> OK
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  642. # [16:09] <jgraham> zewt: If you think svn isn't clumsy and annoying you have bigger problems than I can help you with :)
  643. # [16:09] <zewt> svn is very clean (especially compared to everything else available :)
  644. # [16:10] <jgraham> svn makes me want to kill kittens
  645. # [16:10] <zewt> the best thing about svn is how it killed cvs dead, and cvs needed killing badly
  646. # [16:11] <jgraham> Being an order of magnitude better than cvs doesn't make up for being an order of magnitude worse than any dvcs I have used
  647. # [16:11] <zewt> it's orders of magnitude cleaner than git, that's for sure
  648. # [16:12] <zewt> (i use git because it's what everyone else uses; that doesn't mean I particularly like it)
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  650. # [16:12] <zewt> now if you want headaches, try git-svn :)
  651. # [16:13] <zewt> (which, surprisingly, does work when you need to bridge that gap ... but it's not a whole lot of fun)
  652. # [16:13] <annevk> hsivonen: heh, I think you found the email after which MIME types went to die
  653. # [16:14] <jgraham> I am, on the basis that local commits > impedance mismatch pain
  654. # [16:14] <annevk> hsivonen: back in the days when timbl was not lost to the semantic web
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  665. # [16:39] <annevk> need more memified commit messages
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  667. # [16:46] <hsivonen> annevk: either MS is willing to throw DNT under the bus for short-term feel-good press or they really calculate that Chrome won't ship with DNT defaulting to enabled so that they can really argue that the choice of product is a true proxy for setting the pref
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  669. # [16:48] <jgraham> I though MS backed down on the DNT default
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  671. # [16:50] <annevk> hsivonen: I think it's very strange they're trying this technical solution to a non-technical problem at all. It's false privacy.
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  722. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> OK, HTML WG called completed
  723. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> end of a long day
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  754. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: Why wouldn't <template> work with the XHTML serialization?
  755. # [19:24] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, if you make the children not end up in the DOM?
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  758. # [19:25] <TabAtkins> But XHTML parses into a DOM.
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  761. # [19:30] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Am I missing something?
  762. # [19:30] <Ms2ger> Either you or me
  763. # [19:30] <TabAtkins> Damn, that's unhelpful then.
  764. # [19:30] <TabAtkins> Is the problem that you can't write it in XHTML, that it won't serialize to XHTML, or that it won't parse into an infoset?
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  788. # [20:25] <karlcow> TabAtkins: if a browser keeps the unprefixed version of a CSS property in its engine, we are back to step 1. Some authors will not bother and put the -webkit- version only as it is happening now.
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  792. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> karlcow: ...and those authors' pages won't work on other browsers. That group very quickly becomes an extreme minority.
  793. # [20:32] <karlcow> well, then we respectfully disagree.
  794. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> There's not really anything to disagree about. This is a factual matter, because we've gone through the "add unprefixed version, keep prefixed version" dance several times already. New prefix usage drops to a trickle.
  795. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> I can't cite data showing this, though.
  796. # [20:35] <karlcow> We disagree, because a user doesn't care about minority. The site is working or not working and this is what matters. But you know the factual matter and I know it. We just don't agree on its importance.
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  799. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> The user also doesn't care about politics if the page they visit stops working properly, because it's an unmaintained page written before unprefixing, and uses only the prefixed versions.
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  805. # [20:54] <jgraham> Hmm, the only rule is that if something is needed by the platform everyone should be free to implement it
  806. # [20:54] <jgraham> If content requires -webkit- everyone should implement it until that is no longer the case, perhaps forever
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  808. # [20:57] <hsivonen> jgraham: [citation needed] for MS backing down on DNT default
  809. # [20:58] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: I thought the template spec said XML to DOM mapping won't change
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  814. # [21:08] <jgraham> hsivonen: Oh it seems I misunderstood and thought that something phrased as fact was based in more than speculation
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  817. # [21:12] <jgraham> I'm not sure that there's a huge difference between them setting the default and setting the homepage to read "IE 10: Better privacy controls. [Click here] to tell advertisers not to track you on the internet"
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  827. # [21:24] <TabAtkins> jgraham: I agree. I also think we should engineer the process towards a lesser chance of needing to implement prefixes forever.
  828. # [21:25] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: Pretend I'm dumb (because I am). What's your objection on those grounds?
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  831. # [21:34] <jgraham> TabAtkins: We should realise that prefixes are a failed experiment and eliminate them from the process :)
  832. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> I'm down with dbaron's plan.
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  835. # [21:37] <jgraham> The one where we get two interoperable implementations in testing branches before anything is turned on in stable?
  836. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> That's one of the paths, yes.
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  852. # [22:13] <Hixie> prefixes aren't necessary if the spec editor commits to making sure the spec never specs something incompatible with anything shipped
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  854. # [22:13] <Hixie> if the semantics really need to change, it's just a matter of also changing the names at the same time
  855. # [22:13] <Ms2ger> A spec editor? Where?
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  864. # [22:21] <Hixie> Ms2ger: if there's no spec editor, prefix or no prefix doesn't matter
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  873. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I would think that a minor difference in parsing SVG <script> over time is better than a permanent minor difference in parsing SVG <script> versus HTML <script>.
  874. # [22:52] <shepazu> +1
  875. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> In terms of confusion to authors, at least.
  876. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Especially since I don't even know what the difference between them is.
  877. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Hasn't ever affected any scripts I've written in SVG.
  878. # [22:54] * boaz|away is now known as boaz
  879. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Nor styles, since I presume whatever the problem is is consistent for <style>.
  880. # [22:56] <Hixie> they're different
  881. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> Well that's just dumb.
  882. # [22:56] <Hixie> with <style> i think the only different is <![CDATA[ ]]> blocks
  883. # [22:56] <Hixie> with <script> the differences are more subtle and affect things like document.write()
  884. # [22:56] <Hixie> the model used by SVG <script> in HTML is better than the model used by HTML <script> in HTML
  885. # [22:56] <Hixie> (significantly simpler)
  886. # [22:56] <Hixie> (closer to what XML does)
  887. # [22:57] <shepazu> Hixie: but will HTML script developers know about the differences? will it trip them up to code script for SVG?
  888. # [22:58] <TabAtkins> Heh, then maybe we should just make all scripts inserted by document.parse() be svg scripts. ^_^
  889. # [22:58] <Hixie> there are many disadvantages to the current model, that's why i was against it. but that river was crossed years ago.
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  891. # [22:58] <Hixie> TabAtkins: we just shouldn't have document.parse() :-P
  892. # [22:58] <Hixie> (and certainly shouldn't let <script> blocks get executed by it)
  893. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> That doesn't help <template> with script in it, i suppose.
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  895. # [23:00] <Hixie> <template> shouldn't execute script either
  896. # [23:00] <Hixie> not sure what should happen when you instantiate them
  897. # [23:00] <Hixie> but probably nothing either
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  907. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> Dunno. If scripts dont' run, then it's a non-issue and we can just say they're all html script elements.
  908. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> But <style> is still relevant.
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  914. # [23:31] <Hixie> seems weird to me that we'd want to allow <svg><![CDATA[...]]> but not <svg><style><![CDATA[...]]>
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  916. # [23:31] <Hixie> given that it'd work everywhere else in svg
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  920. # [23:36] <TabAtkins> It also seems weird to me that it actually matters which syntax we choose for <style> elements. Life is weird like that.
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  929. # Session Close: Fri Jun 08 00:00:00 2012

The end :)