/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-06-08 / end

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1. # Session Start: Fri Jun 08 00:00:00 2012
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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4. # [00:02] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah well you'll notice i don't care much about the specifics, i just don't want the spec to churn :-)
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38. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> Hixie: What's your definition of "churn" here? If it's "change, at all", then I'm sad.
39. # [01:11] <Hixie> by "churn" i mean "change from one workable solution to another workable solution", more than just any change at all
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41. # [01:11] <Hixie> i mean, i wouldn't call a clear bug fix "churn"
42. # [01:12] <Hixie> if you see what i mean
43. # [01:12] <Hixie> there's also the issue of implementations -- how many, how stable, etc
44. # [01:12] <tantek> churn = change without noticeable improvement?
45. # [01:12] <Hixie> "noticeable" is maybe too little an adjective
46. # [01:12] <Hixie> "significant", maybe
47. # [01:12] <Hixie> or "worthy"
48. # [01:13] <Hixie> focusing on the word "churn" is unhelpful to describing my overall motivations here, i used the word maybe too loosely
49. # [01:13] <Hixie> my core point was that change has a cost, and we should make sure to do better than break even
50. # [01:13] <Hixie> (especially considering opportunity cost)
51. # [01:15] <hober> Hixie: thanks for that email :)
52. # [01:15] <Hixie> dude that thread was some level of special
53. # [01:15] <hober> agreed
54. # [01:15] <Hixie> your CP has a diff for kitten's sake
55. # [01:16] * miketaylr is now known as miketaylrawaylol
56. # [01:16] <hober> :)
57. # [01:16] <tantek> Hixie - you still pay attention to CPs? ;)
58. # [01:17] <Hixie> no, i pay attention to hober :-)
59. # [01:17] <Hixie> he cc'ed me
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64. # [01:21] <jwalden> for any Opera folk around: you seem to be implementing |new Date(new String("2012-01-31T00:00:00.000Z")).valueOf()| wrong, it should return 1327968000000 but instead returns NaN
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66. # [01:22] <Hixie> ok i just spent five minutes trying to understand why someone would want <a scoped>
67. # [01:22] <Hixie> only to realise that i misread their e-mail
68. # [01:22] <Hixie> they were saying <link rel=stylesheet scoped>, not "link scoped"
69. # [01:22] <gsnedders> jwalden: Known bug
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71. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Were they asking for <link rel=stylesheet> outside of <head> too?
72. # [01:25] <Hixie> yes
73. # [01:25] <Hixie> though this e-mail is giving me a headhache
74. # [01:25] <Hixie> (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Mar/0002.html)
75. # [01:25] <jwalden> gsnedders: cool; it is also known to Mozilla :-D but that's changing today \o/
76. # [01:25] <jwalden> ("This far and no further!")
77. # [01:26] <Hixie> reading through it for like the fifth time it's starting to make sense
78. # [01:26] <Hixie> (my fault, not theirs, i think)
79. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> Still, that's just <style scoped>@import "foo.css";</style>
80. # [01:26] <Hixie> yeah, you have an e-mail later in the thread on that
81. # [01:26] <gsnedders> jwalden: Also, can we just get date parsing in some spec? >_>
82. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> Heh, kk.
83. # [01:26] <jwalden> gsnedders: :-)
84. # [01:27] <Hixie> btw, the way people refer to attributes as @foo or element[foo] really confuses me
85. # [01:27] <Hixie> e.g. i read element[foo] _as a selector_, not as <element foo>
86. # [01:27] <gsnedders> jwalden: And work out what's happening with __proto__, etc., etc., etc.
87. # [01:27] <TabAtkins> @ is pronounced "at", which is clearly short for "attribute".
88. # [01:27] <Hixie> what is so hard about writing foo="" or <element foo>?
89. # [01:27] <Hixie> @ is the address operator :-P
90. # [01:27] <jwalden> gsnedders: the ISO subset microformat is the current solution to that; it's a longer-termish solution, but I think it's workable enough
91. # [01:27] <TabAtkins> And using selectors as a shorthand for creating elements is common enough.
92. # [01:28] <Hixie> i agree that it's common
93. # [01:28] <jwalden> & is the address operator :-P
94. # [01:28] <gsnedders> jwalden: And drop everything else? That's not web compatible.
95. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> foo="" implies the empty-string value, which isn't always what you want.
96. # [01:28] <Hixie> (@foo comes from xpath)
97. # [01:28] <Hixie> foo="..."
98. # [01:28] <jwalden> gsnedders: not drop everything, just have people stop using the old junk
99. # [01:28] <Hixie> i think 'the foo="" attribute' is clear
100. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> That's like, 5 more characters than @foo
101. # [01:28] <gsnedders> jwalden: If we're not dropping it, we should spec it.
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103. # [01:29] <tantek> yeah Twitter took over "@" as a prefix. XPath loses.
104. # [01:29] <Hixie> TabAtkins: well we wouldn't want to run out of _characters_ :-P
105. # [01:29] <jwalden> gsnedders: disagree; but maybe it could be dropped in the longer term
106. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Exactly.
107. # [01:29] <jwalden> anyway
108. # [01:29] <jwalden> fundamentally I don't think you spec ridiculous blatherskite
109. # [01:29] <jwalden> we probably disagree on this point
110. # [01:29] <tantek> Hixie, I think 'foo' attribute is fine
111. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> The confusing part is when discussion of attributes is mixed with discussion of at-rules.
112. # [01:29] <tantek> as is 'float' property
113. # [01:29] <gsnedders> jwalden: Maybe I'm just tired of reverse-engineering others whenever we have yet another site compat. bug because of some weird date parsing edge-case.
114. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> jwalden: You spec ridiculous blatherskite iff the web depends on it.
115. # [01:30] <jwalden> TabAtkins: yeah, we disagree on this point, at the edges
116. # [01:30] <Hixie> tantek: that works too (though i prefer to use that for css props and values)
117. # [01:30] <tantek> TabAtkins - I had to specifically exclude @import @charset @media @font-face from my plain text auto-linker.
118. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> jwalden: Do you mean that we disagree about how many sites constitute "the web depends on it"? Or something else?
119. # [01:31] <tantek> Hixie, in general, single-quotes for standards terms seems to work pretty well, when followed up by what kind of term it is if not obv from context.
120. # [01:31] <tantek> *single-quoting
121. # [01:31] <Hixie> TabAtkins: in this particular e-mail, the guy uses link[scoped] about 15 lines above an actual attribute selector
122. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Get a better context-aware parser.
123. # [01:31] <tantek> Hixie, it's probably an XML/XPath/Java person I'm guessing
124. # [01:31] <tantek> they've got odd habits
125. # [01:32] <Hixie> TabAtkins: you mean take a break? no way! :-P
126. # [01:33] <Hixie> tantek: nah xpath people don't use css selectors :-P
127. # [01:33] <tantek> Hixie - good point :)
128. # [01:33] <jwalden> TabAtkins: partly that truly awful stuff, if you can not-spec it long enough, can die if only you let it; that may not matter for date parsing, but I am as yet unconvinced that the ISO format is an unworkable way to give a format that will Just Work
129. # [01:33] <jwalden> anyway
130. # [01:33] <jwalden> this is probably not worth arguing about
131. # [01:34] <kennyluck> foo="" is just always confusing. foo="…" might me interpreted as not including the empty string as a value. It itself is too lengthy as compared to @foo anyway.
132. # [01:34] <kennyluck> s/me/be/
133. # [01:37] <Hixie> @foo is just wrong imho because there's no @ anywhere near the attribute either in HTML or the DOM :-)
134. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> Silly CSS 2.1, your grammar has long-standing silly errors.
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136. # [01:39] <kennyluck> TabAtkins, and yet I have no idea why you want to borrow the never used <value> to css3-variables.
137. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> kennyluck: I don't want to, but it's necessary right now. What I want to do is define <value> in Syntax and use that.
138. # [01:39] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
139. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> Or do something similar, like saying that it's literally anything that successfully parses as a property value.
140. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> With Syntax making that unambiguous.
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162. # [02:51] <MikeSmith> have to pipe all of Mark Watson's e-mail public-html messages to "lynx -stdin -force_html" in order to figure out which parts are where he's quoting somebody and which parts he's saying himself
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164. # [02:55] <MikeSmith> well, need to do it for other messages to the list
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166. # [02:55] <MikeSmith> it's just that Mark's messages are ones that I actually want to read
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220. # [05:54] <kennyluck> "In this case, it seems entirely reasonable for other browsers (e.g., Firefox) to want to implement this feature. By putting it on navigator, we invite them to implement it as well."
221. # [05:54] <zewt> netscape navigator? heh
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232. # [06:37] <mrofsucof> Hi... If a page gets opened in a hidden iframe by an anchor getting clicked, does its style become visited?
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258. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> "Zed Shaw out-Crockfords Crockford"
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269. # [09:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that's a good way to put it
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271. # [09:12] <hsivonen> so I generated a public key pair using msys ssh and then copied the .pub file's line to .ssh/authorized_keys on the server
272. # [09:12] <hsivonen> doesn't let me log in
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274. # [09:13] <hsivonen> where do I need to look?
275. # [09:13] <hsivonen> Permission denied (publickey).
276. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you did ssh -v -v on the client?
277. # [09:13] <hsivonen> no
278. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> when I have problems I find that usually gives some worthwhile troubleshooting info
279. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: also, you know it won't work if you don't have the perms set your .ssh directory on the serve
280. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> and files in there
281. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> all need to be 600
282. # [09:16] <hsivonen> the other keys there work
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284. # [09:17] <rniwa> sigh... why are we keep changing microdata API spec :(
285. # [09:17] <Ms2ger> rniwa, because it's bogus :)
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288. # [09:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the troubleshooting info just looks like the server didn't accept the key
289. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> ok
290. # [09:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that, or the client offered the private key as the public key
291. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> eh?
292. # [09:19] <hsivonen> which would be terrible default config
293. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> that would be weird
294. # [09:19] <hsivonen> Offering public key: /home/Henri/.ssh/id_rsa
295. # [09:19] <hsivonen> I hope that means really offering .pub
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299. # [09:26] <hsivonen> ssh-add -l says could not open connection to your authentication agent
300. # [09:27] <hsivonen> the client side seems right
301. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you did eval `ssh-agent` already I guess
302. # [09:27] <hsivonen> do I need to somehow make the server refresh authorized_keys changes? I don't remember having to do that before
303. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> no
304. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> you definitely don't need to do that
305. # [09:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I don't know what to do with the output of ssh-agent
306. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> you need to eval it
307. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> but anyway if you got that wrong you would still be able to ssh to that host
308. # [09:30] <annevk> rniwa: it changed?
309. # [09:30] <rniwa> annevk: yeah, it was clarification
310. # [09:30] <rniwa> annevk: but nonetheless affected us
311. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the agent only affects forwarding once your on the remote host, right?
312. # [09:30] <Ms2ger> I know that bz filed half a dozen bugs on it too
313. # [09:30] <rniwa> annevk: elements with propitem="" should not be listed in the list :(
314. # [09:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: now ssh-add -l says the agent has no identities
315. # [09:30] <rniwa> annevk: anyway, i'm going to ask the contributor who has been implementing microdata API in webkit
316. # [09:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I have no clue what the agent does
317. # [09:31] <rniwa> annevk: to submit our tests to w3c
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319. # [09:31] <rniwa> annevk: since we already have a quite few that are really good :)
320. # [09:31] <annevk> I think Opera has submitted a bunch of tests already
321. # [09:31] <Ms2ger> Yeah
322. # [09:31] <Ms2ger> And David improved them when he implemented it in Gecko
323. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: "eval $(ssh-agent) && ssh-add"
324. # [09:31] <annevk> http://w3c-test.org/html/tests/submission/Opera/microdata/001.html
325. # [09:32] <annevk> oh I see
326. # [09:32] <annevk> Opera fails tests too now :/
327. # [09:32] <rniwa> annevk: oh nice!
328. # [09:32] <rniwa> annevk: we should import those.
329. # [09:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks, but permission still denied
330. # [09:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: and the client debug output suggests it was offering the right key anyway
331. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> ok
332. # [09:34] <Ms2ger> rniwa, review appreciated :)
333. # [09:35] <hsivonen> aargh. why do things that usually just work have to fail mysteriously?
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336. # [09:36] <rniwa> Ms2ger: review which?
337. # [09:36] <Ms2ger> The test
338. # [09:36] <rniwa> Ms2ger: opera's?
339. # [09:36] <rniwa> Ms2ger: I've asked the contributor to import 001.html
340. # [09:36] <Ms2ger> Yeah
341. # [09:36] <rniwa> Ms2ger: so presumably he's going to run it and verify that it works in webkit :)
342. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: does the "ssh -v -v" output ever get to the point of saying "debug2: we sent a publickey packet, wait for reply"
343. # [09:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes
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346. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: but not to "debug1: Server accepts key: ..."
347. # [09:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: no
348. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> that sucks
349. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> so yeah, it seems like the client side is fine
350. # [09:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: next it proceeds to trying id_dsa which doesn't exist
351. # [09:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah
352. # [09:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the server side is OK with keys from Ubuntu's OpenSSH, Mac OS X's OpenSSH and irssiconnectbot
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354. # [09:41] <rniwa> Ms2ger, annevk: arkos is the one who has been implementing microdata API in webkit.
355. # [09:42] <Ms2ger> Hi arkos!
356. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I guess you don't have root on the server? Can't tail /var/log/auth.log ?
357. # [09:42] <rniwa> Ms2ger, annevk: he's from Motorola and has been writing excellent patches :D
358. # [09:42] <arkos> Ms2ger: hi
359. # [09:42] <rniwa> arkos: Ms2ger works on Mozilla
360. # [09:42] <rniwa> arkos: and annevk works on Opera
361. # [09:43] <arkos> rniwa: ok
362. # [09:43] <rniwa> arkos: both them are very active in standard bodies :)
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364. # [09:44] <arkos> rniwa: ok.. gr8
365. # [09:44] <rniwa> Ms2ger, annevk: speaking of which, our microdata API is near completion
366. # [09:45] <rniwa> arkos just submitted one last feature we were missing: propertynodelist
367. # [09:45] <Ms2ger> Opera did it first :)
368. # [09:45] <rniwa> submitted a patch for*
369. # [09:45] <rniwa> Ms2ger: i know!
370. # [09:45] <rniwa> Ms2ger: it's nice to have two implementations, right?
371. # [09:45] <Ms2ger> And we did it second :)
372. # [09:45] <asmodai> annevk et al: would making math on wikipedia a user option also be a step in the right direction?
373. # [09:45] <rniwa> Ms2ger: oh, Mozilla has already implemented it?
374. # [09:45] <Ms2ger> Yes
375. # [09:46] <rniwa> Ms2ger: nice!
376. # [09:46] <Ms2ger> Ever since last week or so
377. # [09:46] <rniwa> Ms2ger: cool. i wasn't aware of this :\
378. # [09:47] <Ms2ger> You can still beat IE ;)
379. # [09:47] <arkos> Ms2ger: you are right :)
380. # [09:47] <rniwa> Ms2ger: oh well, arkos is new to webkit
381. # [09:48] <rniwa> Ms2ger: and he has been single-handedly writing code to support microdata API as his first contribution to webkit
382. # [09:48] <rniwa> Ms2ger: so we can't complain :)
383. # [09:48] <Ms2ger> You're always welcome to join Mozilla too, of course :)
384. # [09:48] <rniwa> Ms2ger: LOL
385. # [09:48] <Ms2ger> We could use people like that :)
386. # [09:49] <annevk> "WebGL generates a WebGLContextEvent event"
387. # [09:49] <annevk> euh
388. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you're sure you're logging in with the right username? I mean, with the username for that host set in your .ssh/config or set with "ssh -l foo" on the command line?
389. # [09:49] <annevk> asmodai: what does that mean?
390. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: because if you don't have the right username, it won't tell you
391. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> I think it will just give you the same unhelpful "Permission denied (publickey)." message
392. # [09:51] <annevk> ooh
393. # [09:51] <annevk> some of the event language in WebGL is quite good
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396. # [09:56] <arkos> Ms2ger, annevk, rniwa nice talking to you guys.. hopefully our implementation gets enabled soon...
397. # [09:56] <annevk> oh Google won the Java fight?
398. # [09:56] <annevk> arkos: yeah, good luck :)
399. # [09:56] <rniwa> annevk: yeah we did :D
400. # [09:57] <annevk> rniwa: missed that, cool
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409. # [10:16] <rniwa> Ms2ger: is PropertyNodeList a live node list?
410. # [10:17] <rniwa> annevk, Ms2ger: it's not vacuously obvious from the spec :\
411. # [10:18] <rniwa> i'd assume it's not live since it doesn't explicitly say it's live
412. # [10:20] <rniwa> Hixie: ?
413. # [10:21] <annevk> "The namedItem(name) method must return a PropertyNodeList object representing a live view of the HTMLPropertiesCollection object"
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415. # [10:22] <rniwa> annevk: does that mean PropertyNodeList itself is live?
416. # [10:22] <annevk> it represents a live view
417. # [10:22] <rniwa> annevk: i thought it just mean that HTMLPropertiesCollection itself is live.
418. # [10:22] <annevk> not sure what else that could possibly mean
419. # [10:23] <rniwa> annevk: oh yeah, i guess i agree with you on my second reading.
420. # [10:23] <rniwa> guess i need more tea :\
421. # [10:24] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@50-0-92-247.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
422. # [10:24] <rniwa> annevk: thanks for the response.
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425. # [10:27] <annevk> http://rogerandmike.com/post/24006177542/html5-the-next-big-thing-for-content "How far will pendulum go????"
426. # [10:27] <annevk> what am I reading?
427. # [10:29] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@vpn26141.itmc.tu-dortmund.de)
428. # [10:30] <Velmont> hahaha, that's hilarious :D
429. # [10:30] <Velmont> HTML 5 represents new life for the world wide web, but it will almost certainly not be a smooth transition from HTML 4.
430. # [10:31] <Velmont> and this one: HTML 5 is still in its infancy. Important functionality – such as that needed for commerce – has not yet been enabled. Even though it is not ready to replace HTML 4 on wired PCs, HTML 5 enables new and wonderful experiences on mobile devices.
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433. # [10:31] <annevk> i am as high as kite
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435. # [10:32] <Velmont> I suspect most content creators will not rush into HTML 5 because it only supports a narrow set of use cases and platforms.
436. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> unlock tantric HyperNet pendulum awareness now! with Roger and Mike!
437. # [10:34] * MikeSmith adds "HyperNet" and "pendulum" to the DB for http://logopoeia.com/wisdom/
438. # [10:35] <annevk> "Adopt the rule of pseudo-atomic instability as your guide."
439. # [10:37] <jgraham> I think you're being unfair. That was much better than most other examples of machine generated spam
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443. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> hahaha "the unarguable rule of bio-pendulum-pseudo-time instability follows directly from vibro-tantric law."
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446. # [10:56] <rafaelw_> hsivonen: yt?
447. # [10:56] <rniwa> "(there is no standard HTML 5 for Android)" !?
448. # [10:57] <rafaelw_> rniwa: holy moly: isn't it 2am there?
449. # [10:57] <rniwa> rafaelw_: yeah.
450. # [10:57] <rafaelw_> yikes =-).
451. # [10:58] <rniwa> rafaelw_: are you in Europe or something?
452. # [10:58] <rafaelw_> Israel.
453. # [10:58] <rafaelw_> PST + 10
454. # [10:58] <rniwa> rafaelw_: ah, that's right.
455. # [10:58] <rniwa> rafaelw_: Tel-Aviv?
456. # [10:58] <rafaelw_> yup. coming up on noon here.
457. # [10:58] <rniwa> cool.
458. # [10:58] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: yes
459. # [10:58] <rafaelw_> hi there.
460. # [10:59] <rafaelw_> curious where you're standing on Document.parse() at the moment.
461. # [10:59] <rafaelw_> Hixie is clearly worried about encouraging innerHTML-like patterns. Do you share that worry?
462. # [11:00] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: I can see Hixie's point. I also see that Document.parse() is polyfillable (by compiling the Validator.nu parser into JS using GWT, for example) while E4H isn't polyfillable
463. # [11:01] <annevk> hsivonen: http://qfox.nl/weblog/247
464. # [11:01] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: so I agree that what Hixie proposes would be better in principle, but I think it has political and practical downsides that will be a problem in terms of time to market and deployability
465. # [11:01] <rafaelw_> Is there any reason to see them as mutually exclusive?
466. # [11:02] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: nothing other than more total implementation work
467. # [11:02] <rafaelw_> Document.parse() strikes me as fixing a practical current problem in a way which is consistent with the oddness of the current HTML parser.
468. # [11:02] <Ms2ger> And bigger API surface, I guess
469. # [11:03] <rafaelw_> E4H strikes me as a longer-term, but potentially larger impact feature -- which is akin to designing a new HTML parser.
470. # [11:03] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: I agree on both counts
471. # [11:03] <rafaelw_> I.e. Has behavior which is very different from the current parser.
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473. # [11:04] <rafaelw_> what about the script exectuability issue?
474. # [11:05] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: does jQuery specifically make them executable or is that an accidental side effect of impl details?
475. # [11:05] <rafaelw_> i don't happen to know the design history, but i'd be surprised if it wasn't intentional.
476. # [11:05] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: I would prefer to make scripts executable but if the jQuery behavior is intentional, it's probably best to go with executability
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478. # [11:06] <hsivonen> *prefer to make *un*executable
479. # [11:06] <rafaelw_> right.
480. # [11:06] <asmodai> annevk: It was something we were discussing on #cldr yesterday
481. # [11:06] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: so yeah, I guess I can live with making them executable
482. # [11:06] <asmodai> annevk: in order to encourage uptake on MathML. I am not sure if I can get wikimedia/wikipedia crazy enough to switch 100% to presentation mathml and ditch the other stuff
483. # [11:06] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: it will be a huge footgun when used with anything other than one HTML script element at a time
484. # [11:06] <rafaelw_> i'll ask Yehuda on the thread to clarify. I strongly suspect it's intentional.
485. # [11:06] <asmodai> annevk: So allowing people to turn on mathml usage might already help a bit
486. # [11:07] <asmodai> annevk: via some user preference thing on the wiki
487. # [11:07] <annevk> asmodai: ah yeah
488. # [11:07] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: ok
489. # [11:07] <asmodai> The Unicode folks are eager to adoptation of mathml as well, since it will allow more use of the math code blocks
490. # [11:07] <rafaelw_> hsivonen: any idea when Document.parse() might land in Gecko?
491. # [11:08] <annevk> Is parse() really the best we can come up? How many parser APIs do we need?
492. # [11:08] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: not in June or July
493. # [11:08] <asmodai> parse all the documents!
494. # [11:08] <annevk> DOMParser / innerHTML / outerHTML / insertAdjacentHTML()
495. # [11:09] <jgraham> annevk: Depends if you count normal document loading as an API :)
496. # [11:09] <Ms2ger> createContextualFragment
497. # [11:09] <jgraham> createContextualFragment
498. # [11:09] <jgraham> dammit
499. # [11:09] <Ms2ger> Yay, Gecko naming stuff
500. # [11:09] <annevk> I'd rather we investigate this a bit more before we start shipping yet another one
501. # [11:10] <annevk> it's already quite the mess
502. # [11:10] <rafaelw_> annevk: Can you clarify what exactly you're objecting to.
503. # [11:10] <rafaelw_> Is it just adding a different API call? New behavior?
504. # [11:11] <annevk> adding a new API of which we are not even sure it's the best solution, but we're doing it for some short-term progress
505. # [11:11] <annevk> at least that's the impression I get
506. # [11:11] <annevk> and it's not even clear to me if we get short-term progress, because it will take a long time for IE to get there
507. # [11:12] <rafaelw_> Well, I think Hixie has confused the issue a bit by raising the prospect of a fairly radical new approach.
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509. # [11:13] <rafaelw_> In my view the basic question is creating the ability for the *existing* html parser to be able to contruct dom from markup without a context element.
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511. # [11:13] <rafaelw_> There are two manifestations of this: (1) Imperative, e.g. Document.parse(), and (2) Declarative. e.g. <template>
512. # [11:14] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@80.231.76.54) (Remote host closed the connection)
513. # [11:14] <jgraham> Ms2ger: (I find whenever you think "WTF were people at Netscape/Mozilla thinking" it helps to reread http://www.mozillazine.org/articles/article177.html Then everything becomes clear)
514. # [11:14] <rafaelw_> Both are patterns that are already widely is in use and very poorly supported, resulting in lots of developer contortions and hacks.
515. # [11:14] <jgraham> (+working on early gecko)
516. # [11:15] <rafaelw_> If we want to essentially design a new HTML parser, I think that'd be grand, but it's a much bigger project whose motivations are fairly different.
517. # [11:15] <Ms2ger> "Design patterns were an important part of our modeling processes."
518. # [11:16] <Ms2ger> That's his fault?
519. # [11:16] <annevk> it's not exactly a new HTML parser; it's a way to represent Node objects in JavaScript
520. # [11:16] <Ms2ger> Where does that guy live?
521. # [11:16] <rafaelw_> i think that's the motivation. i think the design is a new parser.
522. # [11:16] <rafaelw_> in hixie's world, that parser lives in ECMAScript.
523. # [11:17] <rafaelw_> at least conceptually: where parser == "a process for converting a character stream into a DOM structure"
524. # [11:17] <jgraham> annevk: document.write into a DOM-created document
525. # [11:17] <annevk> sure
526. # [11:17] <annevk> jgraham: XMLHttpRequest + data URLs
527. # [11:18] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I think it would be unfair to blame it all on rickg, but as I understand it, the Patterns came to Netscape from Digital Style
528. # [11:18] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: so blame the Digital Style team more broadly
529. # [11:19] <annevk> rafaelw_: I can see your point from the perspective of accomplishing that task; but if you look at the use cases and how they are best addressed it becomes a little less clear I think
530. # [11:20] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: I think this is mainly about getting DOM literals in JS in an expedient way that doesn't involve TC39 changing the language
531. # [11:20] <annevk> rafaelw_: that combined with Document.parse() being unlike anything we have for HTML parsing thus far, I'd rather have some stronger agreement that it is the way to go
532. # [11:21] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@80.231.76.54)
533. # [11:21] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: might be worthwhile to at least ping TC39 before proceeding to rout around them
534. # [11:21] * Joins: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.222.120)
535. # [11:21] <hsivonen> sad things happen when groups route around TC39
536. # [11:21] <hsivonen> see arraybuffer endianness
537. # [11:22] <annevk> TC39 will echo quasi
538. # [11:22] <rafaelw_> annevk, hsivonen: you see adding Document.parse() as routing around TC39?
539. # [11:22] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: yes
540. # [11:22] <jgraham> Alterntaive point of view: sad things happen when we wait too long for TC39 to get their shit together - see arraybuffers
541. # [11:22] <rafaelw_> how so?
542. # [11:23] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: we wouldn't need Document.parse() for its main use case if TC39 gave us E4H
543. # [11:23] <jgraham> (we should have got clueful people making a binary API several years before the web GL people finally needed one)
544. # [11:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: indeed
545. # [11:24] <annevk> othermaciej submitted proposals to no avail
546. # [11:24] <rafaelw_> How bad is it add Document.parse() in a world where we eventually get E4H (or something like it)?
547. # [11:25] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: not too bad, IMO, though it might lessen the chance of E4H happening eventually
548. # [11:25] <jgraham> To me it doesn't seem that bad
549. # [11:25] <rafaelw_> Why would it lessen the chance of E4H?
550. # [11:25] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: less need for a clean solution if as "almost there" solution already exists
551. # [11:25] <jgraham> We already have N ways of doing something nearly the same so N+1, with the 1 designed toi better fit the actual use cases doesn't seem like it can be much worse
552. # [11:25] <annevk> given how we still try to remove cruft from the platform I'd say that redundant APIs are bad
553. # [11:26] <jgraham> Plus I expect E4H to be harder than people expect
554. # [11:26] <hsivonen> annevk: if <template> parsing happens with the same parser states, Document.parse() is super-cheap if <template> happens anyway
555. # [11:26] <annevk> hsivonen: it's not cheap to just throw tons of APIs at developers and let them choose
556. # [11:26] <hsivonen> though I intend to fight <template> happening the way currently proposed with wormholes to other DOMs
557. # [11:27] <rafaelw_> annevk: Document.parse() can still be DocumentFragment.innerHTML (I think mainly Henri's preference that it be Document.parse()).
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559. # [11:27] <rafaelw_> It doesn't strike me as redudant at all. It seems like adding a clearly need missing bit of innerHTML.
560. # [11:27] <jgraham> I also have a strong preference for .parse fwiw
561. # [11:27] <hsivonen> rafaelw_: I indeed prefer Document.parse() over DocumentFragment.innerHTML
562. # [11:27] <rafaelw_> i agree with the Document.parse() decision.
563. # [11:28] <rafaelw_> i'm just pointing out that the new API call is making it look more redudant than it is. The feature really lives in the parser logic. Not in the API call.
564. # [11:28] <annevk> there's a ton of parser logic that is not exposed
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572. # [11:31] <jgraham> I think the anti-cruft argument is pretty silly if platform libraries are having to implement the feature themselves but in a more unpleasant way
573. # [11:31] <jgraham> That seems to be the case here
574. # [11:31] <annevk> because we don't have a sane way to create a Node objects
575. # [11:31] * Jedi__ is now known as Jedi_
576. # [11:31] <rafaelw_> Also, it just seems wrong to me to avoid giving developers something that will clearly help them because we're worried that doing so creates complacence for doing something larger.
577. # [11:32] <rafaelw_> FWIW, I see the valid of E4H or similar as totally orthogonal to parsing without a context element.
578. # [11:32] <rafaelw_> s/valid/value
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581. # [11:33] <annevk> I don't see the problem with taking some time to find out what the actual options are
582. # [11:33] <rafaelw_> do you mean seeing whether TC39 is open to E4H?
583. # [11:34] <jgraham> The TC39 release cycle is so crazy-long that I am very skeptical of solutions that put them on the critical path
584. # [11:35] <annevk> you do realize that it'll take at least two years and probably up to five before developers can use any solution here without a supporting library?
585. # [11:35] <annevk> it's not like a few months will matter
586. # [11:35] <jgraham> But the ES committee works in cycles of a few years
587. # [11:36] <annevk> sure, but if they're behind it (or something else) that can be prototyped and shipped
588. # [11:36] <annevk> just as browsers have always shipped JavaScript stuff before the standard was done
589. # [11:36] <rafaelw_> FWIW, i think we should stop accommodating the slow-update-cycle UAs by thinking in terms of years. The web is going to loose that way.
590. # [11:36] * Joins: jochen___ (jochen@nat/google/x-ottfntkonqmbspne)
591. # [11:37] <jgraham> Usually what happens is that browsers ship one thing then the committee change it and everyone has to implement something else
592. # [11:37] <annevk> rafaelw_: as long as IE has market share that's the reality, no?
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595. # [11:37] * jochen___ is now known as jochen__
596. # [11:38] <annevk> jgraham: yeah we should stop catering to that nonsense...
597. # [11:38] <rafaelw_> IE is moving slowly towards shorter half-life. we should be creating more not less pressure in this direction.
598. # [11:40] <annevk> no disagreement there
599. # [11:41] <annevk> I'd still like us to evaluate our options though before adding more API surface
600. # [11:41] <rafaelw_> Can we find a way to make the "evaluating our options" finite?
601. # [11:42] <rafaelw_> I'm worried that we're stacking a very real helpful proposal up against and huge unknown.
602. # [11:43] <rafaelw_> Do we have any indication that the JS folks will be friendly to something like E4H? Surely this idea has been floated by Brenden or Dave Herman already in some form?
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604. # [11:43] <annevk> Last time they thought quasis were better
605. # [11:44] <rafaelw_> And you think they'll react differently now?
606. # [11:44] <annevk> but quasis don't have compile-time checking or a definition
607. # [11:44] <rafaelw_> or can be convinced?
608. # [11:44] <annevk> I don't know
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610. # [11:46] <annevk> if E4H works for browsers and developers we should just do that imo, irrespective of whether it receives TC39 blessing
611. # [11:47] <annevk> rafaelw_: in one of those threads I pointed to previous discussion I believe; in the thread where Hixie made his proposal
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615. # [11:52] <rniwa> annevk, jgraham, hsivonen, rafaelw_: it appears to me that we should at least continue the discussion on the parsing algorithm for template element regardless of what we decide to do with Document.parse
616. # [11:54] <rafaelw_> rniwa: couldn't agree more =-)
617. # [11:54] <rniwa> From API perspective, template element avoids some of objection from Hixie and others in that it doesn't introduce new string-literal-to-DOM API to scripts.
618. # [11:54] <rniwa> in fact, if we just add template element & avoid adding Document.parse, it'll encourage authors to use declarative model
619. # [11:55] <annevk> yeah the only thing controversial with <template> seems to be what happens to the elements
620. # [11:55] <rniwa> instead of imperative model they're currently stuck with.
621. # [11:55] <rniwa> annevk: yeah. :\
622. # [11:55] <annevk> controversial thing*
623. # [11:55] <rniwa> children vs. fragment.
624. # [11:55] <rafaelw_> annevk: yup.
625. # [11:55] <rafaelw_> henri: any chance you're willing to be challenged on the children vs fragment issue here?
626. # [11:55] <rniwa> annevk: i have increasingly convinced that putting it in fragment makes sense to avoid many problems
627. # [11:56] <rniwa> but then what should template.innerHTML, etc... should do?
628. # [11:56] <rniwa> e.g. what happens if you added children to a temple element?
629. # [11:56] <rafaelw_> if <template> were to land, Document.parse() could be polyfilled in about 5 lines.
630. # [11:57] <rafaelw_> and it doesn't remove any pressure around HTML literals in JS.
631. # [11:57] <rniwa> rafaelw_: how so?
632. # [11:57] <rafaelw_> Document.parse = function(markup) {
633. # [11:57] <rniwa> rafaelw_: will you wrap markup in "<template>"?
634. # [11:57] <rafaelw_> var t = document.createElement('template'):
635. # [11:57] <rafaelw_> t.innerHTML = markup;
636. # [11:57] <annevk> rniwa: fragment makes sense to me too and I think innerHTML and such should just operate on the normal DOM, not the fragment
637. # [11:57] <rafaelw_> return t.cotent; }
638. # [11:57] <rniwa> rafaelw_: there, you're assuming that innerHTML works on fragment.
639. # [11:58] <rafaelw_> nope. i'm assuming innerHTML works on <template>
640. # [11:58] <rniwa> rafaelw_: but as annevk just replied, a saner behavior might be to work on the real children.
641. # [11:58] <rniwa> rafaelw_: oh oops, you're right but you're assming that it'll sync fragment on demand.
642. # [11:58] <jgraham> innerHTML not working in the expected way on template would be insane
643. # [11:58] <annevk> "the expected way" lol
644. # [11:59] <hsivonen> jgraham: isn't that the current spec situation? stuff goes on the other side of the wormhole
645. # [11:59] <rafaelw_> annevk: i'm not clear on what you are suggesting. what would this do?
646. # [11:59] <jgraham> i.e. if <template>foo</template> != template.innerHTML = "foo" there will be rioting on the streets
647. # [11:59] <rniwa> annevk: +1 to that LOL
648. # [11:59] <rafaelw_> document.createElement('div').innerHTML = "<template><div>Hello</div></template>";
649. # [11:59] <rniwa> jgraham: so you think that setting innerHTML should update the fragment as well?
650. # [11:59] <annevk> jgraham: but that's kind of the point of <template>...
651. # [12:00] <annevk> jgraham: that you can't see it's children
652. # [12:00] <rniwa> jgraham: but then it's kind of weird in that
653. # [12:00] <rniwa> jgraham: this innerHTML will replace fragment
654. # [12:00] <jgraham> The invariant should be just what I said
655. # [12:00] <rniwa> and don't insert "real" children :\
656. # [12:00] <annevk> <template>foo</template> you want <template>.firstChild to be null
657. # [12:00] <annevk> if innerHTML is suddenly magic, riot on some other set of streets
658. # [12:01] <rniwa> annevk: i think jgraham is suggesting that we sitll do that but then update fragment.
659. # [12:01] <annevk> rniwa: and getting innerHTML does what?
660. # [12:01] <rniwa> annevk: which seems like a good idea at the beginning 'til we start thinking about appendChild
661. # [12:01] <rniwa> jgraham: consider while (~) t.appendChild(~);
662. # [12:01] <rafaelw_> I see the design goal of <template> is that it's contents are *not* in the document.. for all purposes *except* serialization.
663. # [12:01] <rniwa> jgraham: in this case, every call to appendChild should either replace the fragment or add new child to fragment...
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665. # [12:02] <jgraham> Well I have no idea what should happen if you do appendChild and you are using magic documents
666. # [12:02] <annevk> rafaelw_: why would you serialize it?
667. # [12:02] <jgraham> Breaking that is marginally less surprising than breaking innerHTML though
668. # [12:02] <rniwa> jgraham: agreed.
669. # [12:03] <annevk> jgraham: define "breaking"
670. # [12:03] <rniwa> jgraham: but we need to come up with some sane behavior there as well.
671. # [12:03] <jgraham> annevk: I already did
672. # [12:03] <rniwa> annevk: i.e. replace fragment.
673. # [12:03] <rafaelw_> annevk: it's serialzed in the page which is sent to the client.
674. # [12:03] <rniwa> annevk: or whatever the content template is.
675. # [12:03] <annevk> jgraham: I think what you are suggesting is breaking innerHTML
676. # [12:03] <annevk> jgraham: because it would be a special code path for <template>
677. # [12:03] <rniwa> annevk: it doesn't, if we keep children of template element as real children
678. # [12:04] <rniwa> annevk: so i think jgraham is indirectly pointing at keeping them as real children.
679. # [12:04] <jgraham> annevk: Whether it needs a special codepath is pretty irrelevent
680. # [12:04] <annevk> but that breaks getElementsByTagName() etc. and requires parent chain checks besides Windowness checks for <img>
681. # [12:04] <annevk> rniwa: ^^
682. # [12:04] <rniwa> annevk: right.
683. # [12:04] <rniwa> annevk: the question is which breakage is saner :\
684. # [12:04] <jgraham> It only needs a special codepath if parsing <template> in general needs a special codepath
685. # [12:05] <rniwa> annevk: it's sort of a trade off here.
686. # [12:05] <rafaelw_> annevk: can you define "breaks getElementsByTagName"
687. # [12:05] <annevk> <template><div></div></template> you don't want to see that <div> during normal DOM traversal I think
688. # [12:05] <rniwa> annevk: on one hand, putting template in a fragment will let us get away with problems in getElement(s)by*, querySelector, script loading, etc....
689. # [12:06] <rafaelw_> i think that getElementsByTagName, querySelector, getElementById *have to* not match template contents.
690. # [12:06] <rniwa> annevk: but on the other hand, it breaks innerHTML, appendChild, etc... on template element
691. # [12:06] <Ms2ger> rafaelw_, otoh, that breaks XHTML
692. # [12:06] <rafaelw_> we discussed the XHTML the W3C F2F
693. # [12:06] <annevk> got to go
694. # [12:06] <rniwa> annevk: ttyl/
695. # [12:07] <rafaelw_> the consensus was that we need to leave it to XML to "fix" the breakage if they care to.
696. # [12:07] <rafaelw_> Ms2ger: ^^
697. # [12:08] <rafaelw_> I.e. the goal here is to create behavior which is fundamentally incompatible with the XML parser. If XML wants to add this to the parser, they can do that.
698. # [12:08] <rafaelw_> bye anne. ;-)
699. # [12:08] <jgraham> The goal seems to be to create behaviour that is fondamentally incompatible with the DOM :)
700. # [12:08] <jgraham> *fundamentally
701. # [12:09] <Ms2ger> Another question
702. # [12:09] <Ms2ger> <template><div></div></template>
703. # [12:09] <Ms2ger> What's div.parentNode?
704. # [12:09] <rafaelw_> i know it seems that way, but what's being proposed is formally supporting exactly what *literally* every dynamic webapp is already doing.
705. # [12:10] <Ms2ger> http://xkcd.com/725/
706. # [12:10] <jgraham> I understand that there are use cases here
707. # [12:10] <jgraham> But it seems to be non-trivial to solve them in a clean way at this level
708. # [12:10] <rafaelw_> Ms2ger: ;-). I actually thought about that when i wrote the word "literally" and decided to use it.
709. # [12:11] <rafaelw_> The number of webapps which construct DOM without some form of templating is effectively 0.
710. # [12:13] <jgraham> I even wrote *literally* the worst templating system in the world once
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712. # [12:13] <rniwa> i think we need to decide whether we're putting contents of the template in a fragment or not.
713. # [12:14] <Ms2ger> jgraham, oh, I didn't know you were involved with DOM1?
714. # [12:14] <rniwa> almost everyone agrees that we want template element.
715. # [12:14] <jgraham> Hah
716. # [12:14] * Joins: nonge (~nonge@p5082B419.dip.t-dialin.net)
717. # [12:14] <rniwa> everyone is* agreeing*
718. # [12:14] <rniwa> it's the matter of deciding what exactly template element is.
719. # [12:14] <Ms2ger> Literally everyone? :)
720. # [12:14] <rniwa> Ms2ger: no.
721. # [12:15] <rniwa> Ms2ger: because there is always a non-zero probably that someone would come and disagree with us.
722. # [12:15] <rniwa> Ms2ger: i would not risk myself being wrong by saying "literally" there.
723. # [12:15] <Ms2ger> Smart man :)
724. # [12:15] <rniwa> :)
725. # [12:15] * Parts: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.222.120) ("Linkinus - http://linkinus.com")
726. # [12:15] <rniwa> indeed i'm extremely risk adverse.
727. # [12:16] <rniwa> averse*
728. # [12:16] * Ms2ger would still like an answer to his parentNode question
729. # [12:16] <rniwa> Ms2ger: i think it'll be a document fragment
730. # [12:16] <Ms2ger> ?!
731. # [12:17] <jgraham> Ms2ger: That seems to be the crux of the issue
732. # [12:17] <rniwa> Ms2ger: if we decide to put contents of template element in a fragment
733. # [12:17] <rniwa> Ms2ger: if we don't, and keep them as real children of template element, then it'l be the template element.
734. # [12:17] <rafaelw_> ms2ger: the divs parent node would be the template element's "content" DocumentFragment.
735. # [12:17] <rniwa> rafaelw_: if we decide to go with that route.
736. # [12:17] <Ms2ger> Anyway, I object to anything where node.parentNode.childNodes doesn't include node
737. # [12:18] <rniwa> Ms2ger: that works in both cases.
738. # [12:18] <jgraham> I think that invariant holds
739. # [12:18] <rniwa> Ms2ger: if parentNode is a document fragment, then the document fragment's childNodes will certainly include the node.
740. # [12:18] <Ms2ger> jgraham, not in Gecko, and it's horrible
741. # [12:18] <jgraham> In the fragment case the weirdness is that the <template> element has no children
742. # [12:18] <rniwa> Ms2ger: !?
743. # [12:18] <Ms2ger> XBL
744. # [12:18] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I point, and I laugh
745. # [12:19] * Ms2ger patpats jgraham
746. # [12:19] <rniwa> Ms2ger: i'd just say "scumbag XBL" and stop there.
747. # [12:19] <rafaelw_> Wait. Surely you jest.
748. # [12:19] <Philip`> I like the phrase "Security will be present by the beginning of the year or so." (from http://www.mozillazine.org/articles/article177.html)
749. # [12:20] <Ms2ger> In our implementation? I don't think that'll work :)
750. # [12:20] <rniwa> jgraham: yeah, and what should happen when you assign something to innerHTML
751. # [12:20] <rafaelw_> "node.parentNode.childNodes doesn't include node" isn't true with DF's in gecko>
752. # [12:20] <rafaelw_> ?
753. # [12:20] <rniwa> jgraham: or add or remove children to the template element :\
754. # [12:20] <Velmont> Philip`: Yeah, that was weird, and funny
755. # [12:20] <jgraham> rniwa: One could of course make appendChild and various other methods throw in the case that the parent is a template
756. # [12:20] <Ms2ger> rafaelw_, dunno about DF's, but it can be that way if node is the root of an XBL tree
757. # [12:21] <Ms2ger> Or something
758. # [12:21] <rniwa> jgraham: i guess, that's an acceptable solution.
759. # [12:21] <rniwa> jgraham: but then there are LOTs of APIs that do this :\
760. # [12:22] <rniwa> jgraham: e.g. you can create a Range inside the template (not in its fragment)
761. # [12:22] <jgraham> Well the other option is just to let it work, but be slightly weird
762. # [12:22] <rniwa> jgraham: and call one of those fancy manipulation APIs
763. # [12:22] <jgraham> True
764. # [12:23] <rniwa> jgraham: it's also not entirely clear what should outerHTML should do :(
765. # [12:23] <rafaelw_> What if we made <template> behave kind of like <script> and have it's contents be "refected" by a text node which is it's first child node.
766. # [12:23] <rafaelw_> ?
767. # [12:23] <rniwa> scumbag DOM APIs. we should just kill all of them and start fresh.
768. # [12:23] <Ms2ger> rniwa, dash?
769. # [12:23] <jgraham> rafaelw_: I think I suggested that before and there were problems
770. # [12:24] <jgraham> I'm not sure what they were though
771. # [12:24] <rniwa> Ms2ger: i'd call it CleanDOM 1.0. there is no script and no css. pure semantic HTML. that's it.
772. # [12:24] <rniwa> Ms2ger: in fact, there's not even DOM!
773. # [12:24] <Ms2ger> It's XHTML2? :)
774. # [12:24] <rafaelw_> yeah. you did. i didn't like it at the time, but given the worry about breaking the existing assumptions, it's starting to look more appealing.
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777. # [12:25] <rniwa> rafaelw_: what should happen if someone tried to add non-text node to template?
778. # [12:25] <Ms2ger> Also
779. # [12:25] <rafaelw_> hmm... but then there's the problem of sub-templates.
780. # [12:25] <rafaelw_> <sigh>
781. # [12:25] <rniwa> rafaelw_: yeah, i was about to say that :\
782. # [12:26] <Ms2ger> We've just got replaceChild() and friends specced right, please don't mess with them :)
783. # [12:26] <rniwa> rafaelw_: i think that was one big reason you didn't want the text-based template
784. # [12:26] <rniwa> Ms2ger: are you sure it's spec'ed "right"? i bet there are few bugs, etc... hanging there :P
785. # [12:26] <Ms2ger> rniwa, in WebKit? Yes ;)
786. # [12:26] <rafaelw_> Ms2ger: doesn't lifting template contents into a documentfragment meet that requirement?
787. # [12:26] <rniwa> Ms2ger: LOL
788. # [12:27] <Ms2ger> rniwa, (seriously)
789. # [12:27] <Ms2ger> rafaelw_, haven't thought much about it
790. # [12:27] <rniwa> Ms2ger: i know. i'm painfully aware of that.
791. # [12:27] <rniwa> Ms2ger: haven't gotten cycle to fix them :(
792. # [12:27] <Ms2ger> rafaelw_, it seems weird, but maybe it's the best approach
793. # [12:27] <rniwa> Ms2ger: maybe you can convince ojan to work on it :)
794. # [12:27] <Ms2ger> rniwa, anything my tests don't catch? :)
795. # [12:27] <rafaelw_> the current proposal is that it messes with parsing and serialization, but nothing else.
796. # [12:28] <Ms2ger> That's even worse, I can't even punt that to annevk :(
797. # [12:28] <rniwa> rafaelw_: i think we need to define what innerHTML, appendChild, etc... on template element should do.
798. # [12:29] <rniwa> it appears that there are some tricky issues there.
799. # [12:29] <Ms2ger> Hmm
800. # [12:29] * rniwa wonders if hsivonen is still around.
801. # [12:29] <Ms2ger> el.innerHTML = '<template><div></div></template>'
802. # [12:30] <Ms2ger> el.appendChild(document.createElement('template')).appendChild(document.createElement('div'))
803. # [12:30] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
804. # [12:30] <Velmont> I kinda find it strange that something that is not concrete but an "idea" (a template) is in the HTML at all. It makes for this problem of having to hide it.
805. # [12:30] <rniwa> Ms2ger: if we put the template's content in a fragment, then the latter won't "work".
806. # [12:30] <rniwa> Ms2ger: well, i guess we can make it work if we spec appendChild to work on fragment instead.
807. # [12:30] <rniwa> Ms2ger: but that's kind of weird :\
808. # [12:30] <Velmont> <script>var mytmpl=<div class=whatever></div>;</script> / <template id=mytmpl><div class=whatever></div></template>
809. # [12:31] <Ms2ger> rniwa, I'll murder you slowly and painfully if you do that :)
810. # [12:31] <rafaelw_> i think it's desireable that the latter doesnt' "work".
811. # [12:31] <Ms2ger> Velmont, hmm, I see what you did there :)
812. # [12:31] <rniwa> Ms2ger: i don't think i'll suggest anything as insane as that :)
813. # [12:31] <rniwa> rafaelw_: throws an exception?
814. # [12:31] <Velmont> Ms2ger: .. hmm, what did I do`? :P
815. # [12:32] <Ms2ger> E4H? :)
816. # [12:32] <Velmont> yeah!
817. # [12:32] <rniwa> i've started to think that throwing exceptions as jgraham suggested might be the sanest solution
818. # [12:32] <rniwa> if we go with the fragment approach.
819. # [12:32] * Ms2ger broke something when updating testharness.js
820. # [12:32] <rniwa> rafaelw_, Ms2ger: but then we still have to deal with innerHTML, and innerHTMl and appendChild behaving differently is also kind of weird.
821. # [12:32] <rafaelw_> i'm not sure that makes sense.
822. # [12:32] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Updating in which direction?
823. # [12:32] <rafaelw_> scripts don't throw if you append element children.
824. # [12:32] <jgraham> (push or pull)
825. # [12:33] <Velmont> jgraham: possibly the wrong one...
826. # [12:33] <Ms2ger> jgraham, importing the new version
827. # [12:33] <jgraham> Ms2ger: OK
828. # [12:33] <Ms2ger> pull from w3.org, push to m.o
829. # [12:33] <rniwa> rafaelw_: so what happens when you append children via appendChild to a template element?
830. # [12:33] <rniwa> rafaelw_: will it just silently fail?
831. # [12:33] <Ms2ger> rafaelw_, rniwa, img elements don't throw either
832. # [12:33] <Ms2ger> Just put them in the DOM?
833. # [12:33] <rafaelw_> probably the same thing.
834. # [12:33] <Velmont> Ms2ger: I put big warnings when I updated operas version, -- but noone bugged me about it. So went fine for us, I believe.
835. # [12:34] <rafaelw_> they append and live as children, but that just doesn't accomplish anything very interesting.
836. # [12:34] <Ms2ger> Velmont, might be some of the changes to threport.js I sneaked in
837. # [12:34] <rniwa> Ms2ger, rafaelw_: so document.createElement('template').appendChild(e) will insert e as the "real
838. # [12:34] <rafaelw_> yup
839. # [12:34] <rniwa> " child of the template element?
840. # [12:34] <Ms2ger> .childNodes will be [e]
841. # [12:34] <rafaelw_> yes.
842. # [12:34] <rniwa> ok
843. # [12:35] <rniwa> but then it's weird that innerHTML works on fragment then.
844. # [12:35] <rafaelw_> i think script is the precedent here.
845. # [12:35] <rafaelw_> yes. but again the "weirdness" *is* the design goal.
846. # [12:35] <Ms2ger> innerHTML on fragment?
847. # [12:35] <rniwa> Ms2ger: innerHTMl on template
848. # [12:35] <jgraham> BTW pliniss wants to update testharnessreport.js on the W3C server to extract metadata from tests that you add with syntax like test(function() {}, "My foo test", {help:"http://spec/link"})
849. # [12:36] <jgraham> Does that seem OK to others?
850. # [12:36] <Ms2ger> *Linss
851. # [12:36] <rniwa> i've started to think that if we eventually want Document.parse, etc...
852. # [12:36] <jgraham> Oops
853. # [12:36] <Ms2ger> But that seems correct
854. # [12:36] <rniwa> then template.innerHTML should probably work like tempalte.appendChild as well
855. # [12:36] <jgraham> plinss
856. # [12:36] <Ms2ger> s/correct/sane/
857. # [12:36] <rniwa> meaning that it doesn't do anything interesting.
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859. # [12:36] <rafaelw_> rniwa: what would
860. # [12:36] <rniwa> because if we expose parse on DocumentFragment, for example,
861. # [12:37] <Ms2ger> I think that special-casing template.innerHTML would be weird
862. # [12:37] <rafaelw_> myDiv.innerHTML = "<template><div>Foo</div></template>"
863. # [12:37] <jgraham> Good, doog. Maybe I will put his patch somewhere it can get proper review
864. # [12:37] <rafaelw_> do?
865. # [12:37] <rniwa> then we can just do template.content.parse(~)
866. # [12:37] <jgraham> WTF
867. # [12:37] <Ms2ger> Doog?
868. # [12:37] <jgraham> Did I just type good backwards?
869. # [12:37] <Velmont> jgraham: hmm. yea. Not doing test(function() {}, { desc: 'My foo test', help: 'http://spec' }) though?
870. # [12:37] <Ms2ger> You did
871. # [12:37] <jgraham> That is...
872. # [12:37] <Ms2ger> Velmont, eh, more typing :)
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874. # [12:38] <rniwa> rafaelw_: that should work. it'll create template with content fragment generated with "<div>foo</div">
875. # [12:38] <Velmont> Ms2ger: I'm just asking the question man! :P
876. # [12:38] <rniwa> rafaelw_: i'm talking about document.createElement('template').innerHTML = ~
877. # [12:38] <jgraham> Velmont: Since titles are non-optional (sort of) that doesn't seem like a big win
878. # [12:38] <rniwa> and suggesting that it should behave like document.createElement('template').appendChild(~)
879. # [12:38] <Velmont> jgraham: Yeah.
880. # [12:38] <rniwa> in that it'll just add it to the real DOM, and not to the content fragment it has.
881. # [12:39] <jgraham> (although I have found myself writing things like async_test(undefined, {timeout:4000}) when I wanted to use document.title as the test title
882. # [12:39] <jgraham> )
883. # [12:39] <rafaelw_> hmm... I gotta go, but i'll look forward to hearing why. =-).
884. # [12:39] <rafaelw_> bye all.
885. # [12:39] <jgraham> bye
886. # [12:39] <rniwa> rafaelw_: bye.
887. # [12:39] <Ms2ger> See you
888. # [12:40] <Velmont> jgraham: Exposing all the variables then?
889. # [12:40] <Ms2ger> jgraham, though, how much metadata does he want to put there?
890. # [12:40] <rniwa> Ms2ger, jgraham: i'm increasingly convinced that if we keep innerHTML, appendChild, etc... to be regular DOM API and let them mutate "real" DOM
891. # [12:40] <rniwa> then fragment approach might be quite sane.
892. # [12:40] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I think he wants it to be possible to put all the things that the CSS WG already use
893. # [12:40] <Velmont> (the full object). -- Although that kinda punts the standardization issue to somewhere else.
894. # [12:41] <jgraham> Let me put the patch somewhere
895. # [12:41] * Ms2ger isn't entirely sure what Velmont is saying
896. # [12:41] * jgraham neither
897. # [12:41] <Velmont> oh man
898. # [12:42] <Velmont> Ms2ger: If the full object is exposed to testharnessreport.js you could write test(..., { ohmanfancyproprietarystuff: 'infoz' }) and the report could use that information. But I guess we'd want to have people use the same properties for common stuff that we all really want.
899. # [12:43] <Velmont> And not call it like operas_special_spec_link='http://the-spec/bla'
900. # [12:43] <Velmont> But I guess it's all theorethical, because the web won't use it, mostly us few selected test writers :P
901. # [12:44] <rniwa> good night guys ;)
902. # [12:44] <Ms2ger> gn
903. # [12:44] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@216.239.45.130) (Quit: rniwa)
904. # [12:44] <Velmont> Hm. Doesn't make sense, just ignore my last sentences :P
905. # [12:44] <Ms2ger> OK :)
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909. # [12:54] <jgraham> https://github.com/jgraham/testharness.js/commit/dc0ded17117ac14705a1f9aa0f6466b8aae3c845
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912. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> jgraham: is that something you think is going to be generally useful, or is yet another thing that only the CSS WG is ever likely to actually use?
913. # [13:03] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I have no idea. I mean, my experience is that test metadata sounds like a great idea and actually doesn't work very well
914. # [13:03] <jgraham> But maybe my experience is wrong
915. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> I guess it doesn't hurt to have it as an option for anybody to make use of it
916. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> as long at it doesn't creep into becoming a requirement at least
917. # [13:04] <jgraham> That is basically my feeling
918. # [13:05] <jgraham> I would rather people spend time writing tests than spend time trying to work out what all the required metadata is, and what the right values are
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921. # [13:13] <annevk> <template> is basically XML Data Islands
922. # [13:14] <annevk> but Opera did it first of course
923. # [13:14] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I see you got a open pull request from tobie there to add a readme file
924. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> Opera Awesome Islands
925. # [13:15] <Ms2ger> Duplicating the docs? :/
926. # [13:15] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yeah I guess I should fix that
927. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> would be good to have some kind of readme
928. # [13:16] <jgraham> Going from git to hg is a bit of a pain :(
929. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
930. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: there's docs?
931. # [13:16] <Ms2ger> In testharness.js
932. # [13:16] <Ms2ger> That's what he copied
933. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> oh
934. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> hmm
935. # [13:17] <jgraham> Right, I am not that sure about duplicating the docs
936. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> that's not so good
937. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> I don't think the docs should be duplicating
938. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> the readme can just say "docs are in the source of testharness.js"
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948. # [13:38] <jgraham> Time to add a readme file: 2 minutes. Time to try and work out how to remove the one line change that accidentially made it into the local commit at the same time: 15 minutes. Mercurial: where mistakes should be punished by making you learn an entire new revision control system to fix them.
949. # [13:39] <Ms2ger> hg revert foo/bar
950. # [13:40] <jgraham> That adds an extra commit
951. # [13:40] <Ms2ger> Oh, why'd you commit before checking if it was right?
952. # [13:41] <jgraham> Because in git you only commit the things that you asked to commit. In hg it commits all changes.
953. # [13:41] <Ms2ger> Yeah, that's really annoying in git :)
954. # [13:42] <jgraham> Well you can always use -a
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958. # [13:42] <Ms2ger> Right
959. # [13:42] * Joins: veosotano_ (~veosotano@18.Red-83-44-153.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net)
960. # [13:42] <jgraham> Also, if you make a mistake and want to fix it you can use the same tools as you use for other operations
961. # [13:42] <Ms2ger> Every time I'm forced to use git, I end up doing commit, cursing, and commit -a
962. # [13:43] <Ms2ger> Fortunately that isn't often :)
963. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> jgraham: "asseertions"
964. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> anyway, thanks for adding it
965. # [13:47] <jgraham> They're like assertions but eith more eeeee!
966. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> hah
967. # [13:47] <jgraham> eith is also like with but with more eeeee!
968. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> a-seer-tions
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971. # [13:54] * Ms2ger puts e cowboy hat on MikeeeSmith's head
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976. # [14:14] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I think you can do hg qimport tip tmp; hg qpop; $EDITOR .hg/patches/tmp; hg qpush; hg qfinish tip
977. # [14:14] <AryehGregor> Or something.
978. # [14:14] <AryehGregor> No, that's not right.
979. # [14:14] <AryehGregor> hg qimport tip -n tmp; hg qpop; $EDITOR .hg/patches/tmp; hg qpush; hg qfinish tmp
980. # [14:14] <AryehGregor> Something like that.
981. # [14:14] <AryehGregor> Which, yes, is ludicrous and broken.
982. # [14:14] <AryehGregor> It's hg, what do you expect.
983. # [14:14] <AryehGregor> To be fair, git's commit -a is weird. svn also defaults to it.
984. # [14:15] <AryehGregor> hg rollback works here, too.
985. # [14:15] <AryehGregor> That's probably the most sensible, if you haven't done anything else in between.
986. # [14:16] <jgraham> Yeah, hg rollback would have worked in this case
987. # [14:16] <jgraham> But yeah, I ended up using mq, which is sort of absurd
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1005. # [15:19] <annevk> WebKit has so many CORS bugs...
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1007. # [15:20] <annevk> e.g. http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/loader/CrossOriginAccessControl.cpp#L142 has no checks for duplicate Access-Control-Allow-Origin headers
1008. # [15:20] <annevk> then a little further on it does some kind of origin-based check rather than a string equality check
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1012. # [15:22] <jgraham> annevk: Is there a testsuite?
1013. # [15:24] <annevk> yeah
1014. # [15:26] <jgraham> Sucks if they are ignoring it
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1046. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> "Moving the Stable Web Forward"
1047. # [16:05] <smaug____> Stable o_O
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1049. # [16:10] <karlcow> You need a lot of horses power for these browsers these days
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1055. # [16:24] <Velmont> jgraham: I'm bitten by those hg bugs/annoyances all the time as well.
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1059. # [16:28] <Ms2ger> "features" is the word you're looking for :)
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1061. # [16:31] <jgraham> Hmm, so gecko and webkit don't seem to execute scripts in documents create by DOMImplementation.createHTMLDocument()
1062. # [16:31] <Ms2ger> I'll believe that
1063. # [16:32] <jgraham> Well your spec doesn't seem to agree with your beliefs :)
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1065. # [16:33] <Ms2ger> I'll believe that too :)
1066. # [16:34] <Ms2ger> Actually
1067. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> jgraham, surely this falls under the "no defaultView" condition?
1068. # [16:35] <jgraham> ooh, maybe
1069. # [16:35] <jgraham> Where's that?
1070. # [16:36] <Ms2ger> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/webappapis.html#concept-n-script
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1072. # [16:37] <jgraham> Yes, that makes sense
1073. # [16:37] <jgraham> So this should parse as if scripting is disabled also
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1097. # [18:30] <scott_gonzalez> TabAtkins: I haven't been following <template> too closely. What's the confusion about qSA?
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1099. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> <!doctype html><template><div></div></template>
1100. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> What's document.querySelectorAll("div")?
1101. # [18:32] <scott_gonzalez> empty set
1102. # [18:32] <scott_gonzalez> That is definitely what's expected by developers.
1103. # [18:33] <Ms2ger> By literally all developers?
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1105. # [18:33] <scott_gonzalez> I want to say "yes", but I obviously do not have empirical data on that.
1106. # [18:33] <scott_gonzalez> Everyone uses <script type="x"> or <textarea> or whatever to ensure that behavior today.
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1108. # [18:34] <scott_gonzalez> If it's not expected, then why use <template>?
1109. # [18:34] <scott_gonzalez> <div style="display: none;" id="my-tempalte">
1110. # [18:35] <scott_gonzalez> document.parse( document.getElementById( "my-template" ) )
1111. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> You're parsing an element..?
1112. # [18:37] <scott_gonzalez> sorry, .innerHTML
1113. # [18:37] <scott_gonzalez> Or I gues just clone it.
1114. # [18:38] <scott_gonzalez> The point is that everyone today is making sure their template contents are not actually part of the DOM.
1115. # [18:38] <scott_gonzalez> If anyone has some weird case where they want it to be, why would they use <template>?
1116. # [18:39] <Hixie> TabAtkins: ok, i added the definition of :hover to the HTML spec.
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1118. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> Anyway, I'm probably convinced that it shouldn't match, but I wouldn't say everyone definitely agrees with me :)
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1156. # [19:33] <[tm]> public-html is going to be a historical gem
1157. # [19:34] <[tm]> who was it earlier here taking about abnormal psychology?
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1163. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> rafaelw_: I got bored reading scrollback, so this may have been discussed after I stopped reading, but the goal of the "<template> contents are shoved into a separate document" is solely so that stray queries against the doc don't accidentally return their contents.
1164. # [19:40] <TabAtkins> For all other purposes, ideally they'd be treated like normal contents in the normal DOM.
1165. # [19:41] <TabAtkins> If we gain the correct qSA behavior for free, but have to manually handle a bunch of manipulation APIs like .innerHTML, it may not be worth it, and we should swap and just manually handle qSA and friends.
1166. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> Where "manually" means some form of "generically, for all things that query against the document looking for nodes".
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1172. # [19:50] <Hixie> TabAtkins: the only reason i am aware of for parsing into another doc's docfrag is to neuter the content
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1174. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> What do you mean by "parsing into another doc's docfrag"?
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1176. # [19:53] <Hixie> another Document's DocumentFragment
1177. # [19:53] <TabAtkins> It's the "parsing into" that I'm unclear about. Which APIs are you talking about?
1178. # [19:54] <Hixie> <template> parsing
1179. # [19:54] <Hixie> no api
1180. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> I still don't know what you're talking about. ;_;
1181. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> You're using words in combinations that I'm not quite sure about.
1182. # [19:54] <Hixie> heh
1183. # [19:54] <Hixie> sorry :-)
1184. # [19:54] <Hixie> when you have an HTML doc
1185. # [19:54] <Hixie> with a <template>
1186. # [19:55] <Hixie> the contents of that element are parsed by the HTML parser into a separate document's documentfragment object
1187. # [19:55] <Hixie> instead of into the document of the parser
1188. # [19:55] <Hixie> the goal of this is to neuter the dom
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1190. # [19:55] <Hixie> of the template
1191. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
1192. # [19:56] <Hixie> so not "solely so that stray queries against the doc don't accidentally return their contents" :-)
1193. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> By "neuter" you presumably mean preventing image loads, etc.?
1194. # [19:56] <Hixie> right
1195. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> That doens't require a new doc though, afaict.
1196. # [19:56] <Hixie> well, i mean, we could always spec new magic
1197. # [19:57] <Hixie> but this is pretty magical stuff already so personally i'd rather just reuse what we have already
1198. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> Oh, we already have neutered documents?
1199. # [19:57] <Hixie> sure, e.g. createDocument(), XMLHttpRequest docs
1200. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> Hm, okay.
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1205. # [20:06] <[tm]> if loonie number two says, "loonie number one is not batshit insane, you are", does that cancel out the looniness?
1206. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> No, it squares it.
1207. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> Also, what's the thread with all the looniness?
1208. # [20:06] * jonlee_ is now known as jonlee
1209. # [20:11] <[tm]> TabAtkins: public-html-stridency
1210. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> ...that's not a real email thread.
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1215. # [20:23] <rniwa> Hixie: there was some discussion about what should happen when you call appendChild, removeChild, etc... on the template element itself
1216. # [20:23] <rniwa> (not it's content fragment)
1217. # [20:23] <rniwa> Hixie: or assign/retreive values to/from innerHTML of the template element.
1218. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> Yeah, DOM manipulation on the <template> seems like it should work, particularly .innerHTML.
1219. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> Though I wouldn't be *too* sad if it didn't (and you had to descend into its doc first), it just seems weird.
1220. # [20:30] <jgraham> I would be very upset if innerHTML doesn't work but am pretty unbothered what happens with appendChild and friends
1221. # [20:30] <jgraham> (you can already do things like append children to a void element which makes equally little sense)
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1225. # [20:35] <rniwa> TabAtkins, jgraham: on the other hand, innerHTML and appendChild behaving differently is also confusing
1226. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
1227. # [20:35] <rniwa> i would be personally more annoyed with that than innerHTML not replacing the content fragment.
1228. # [20:36] <rniwa> if we added innerHTML on the content fragment, we can just do
1229. # [20:36] <rniwa> templateElement.content.innerHTML = ~
1230. # [20:36] <rniwa> jgraham: not sure if you're okay with that idea.
1231. # [20:36] <Ms2ger> Are we back there? :)
1232. # [20:36] <rniwa> Ms2ger: all the way!
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1237. # [20:41] <jgraham> I wonder if you could just make <template> an ElementProxy or something that forwarded all method calls to template.content
1238. # [20:42] <jgraham> (with some exceptions of course)
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1241. # [20:42] <TabAtkins> That makes sense to me.
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1243. # [20:44] <hober> sicking: i've attempted to add some signal to the issue-204 thread; if you find the time, I'd be very grateful for a followup to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Jun/0066.html
1244. # [20:46] <sicking> hober: sorry, won't have time for a bit. Last day before vacation today and i have a lot to finish up before heading out :(
1245. # [20:46] <sicking> like packing :)
1246. # [20:46] <Ms2ger> That doesn't make sense to me :)
1247. # [20:47] <Ms2ger> hober, you know, if you have a finite amount of signal and an infinite amount of noise, the s:n ratio remains zero :)
1248. # [20:47] <hober> sicking: that's fine :)
1249. # [20:47] <hober> Ms2ger: indeed.
1250. # [20:49] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
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1257. # [21:11] <Velmont> hober: I liked the summary, made me not feel guilty for only reading the headlines :]
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1262. # [21:25] <TabAtkins> Anyone ever been to the Dublin Web Summit?
1263. # [21:25] <TabAtkins> Got invited to speak there, wondering if it's worth a trip to Europe.
1264. # [21:25] * Quits: riven` (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1265. # [21:26] <TabAtkins> Then again, that'll be my first time to Ireland, which is pretty attractive all by itself.
1266. # [21:26] * Quits: darcyclarke (~darcyclar@71.46.49.251) (Quit: Leaving...)
1267. # [21:29] <jgraham> No idea about the conference, but Ireland is worth a visit (irrespective of your taste for Guinness)
1268. # [21:29] <TabAtkins> Gradually making myself like the taste of stouts.
1269. # [21:29] <TabAtkins> (I have a problem with bitter flavors that I'm training myself out of.)
1270. # [21:30] <Ms2ger> Oh, ojan?
1271. # [21:30] <ojan> i'm here
1272. # [21:30] <ojan> what's up?
1273. # [21:30] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-4d028e4f.pool.mediaWays.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
1274. # [21:30] <Ms2ger> rniwa volunteered you to fix some of his bugs ;)
1275. # [21:30] <ojan> lol...not likely :)
1276. # [21:31] <ojan> Ms2ger: which bugs?
1277. # [21:31] <rniwa> ojan: appendChild, etc....
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1281. # [21:31] <rniwa> ojan: we don't match the spec exactly
1282. # [21:31] * Joins: jreading (~Adium@204.56.125.50)
1283. # [21:32] <ojan> i'm certainly happy to review patches fixing bugs in that area :)
1284. # [21:32] <Ms2ger> Well played
1285. # [21:32] <Ms2ger> You know this game, sir
1286. # [21:34] <rniwa> ojan: LOL.
1287. # [21:34] <rniwa> we've got to find someone who's motivated enough to fix these :\
1288. # [21:34] <rniwa> ojan: maybe we can find some friendly Motorola contributor to do it.
1289. # [21:35] <Ms2ger> Hah
1290. # [21:35] <rniwa> ojan: they're big on fixing compatibility problems :D
1291. # [21:35] <Ms2ger> MD first
1292. # [21:35] <zewt> TabAtkins: i've never cared for beer, and i have a basic issue with the idea of drinks that i have to teach myself to like
1293. # [21:35] <ojan> seriously though...i do want to see us fix these issues
1294. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> zewt: That's a silly position, unless you've never started liking anything at all that you disliked as a child.
1295. # [21:35] <ojan> i just have too much on my plate to fix everythign i want to see fixed :)
1296. # [21:35] <zewt> pretty sure my dislike for beer doesn't come from not liking it as a child :)
1297. # [21:36] <ojan> oh...we have a new eng who might want to do this....
1298. # [21:36] <ojan> Ms2ger, rniwa: are there bugs filed?
1299. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> For example, sharp chedder or a good blue cheese are hard to like initially, but very delicious once you train yourself.
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1301. # [21:36] <rniwa> ojan: maybe.
1302. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> Beer was the last of the alcoholic trinity that I was able to enjoy, though.
1303. # [21:36] <rniwa> ojan: one thing we need to do is to figure out figure out all the bugs in our code first.
1304. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> Once you get over the hump, there are a *lot* of delicious ones.
1305. # [21:37] <rniwa> ojan: i don't think bugs filed for all of them.
1306. # [21:37] <Ms2ger> ojan, I've got tests! ;)
1307. # [21:38] <ojan> Ms2ger, rniwa: well...if you CC me on bugs, i'll run them by the new guy and see if he wants to take a stab
1308. # [21:38] <zewt> ojan: heh, there's no better way to learn the way around a codebase than fixing bugs
1309. # [21:39] <Ms2ger> ojan, and even better, rniwa can make them run on your bots :)
1310. # [21:40] <rniwa> Ms2ger: sounds like a good idea :)
1311. # [21:40] <rniwa> Ms2ger: we're still discussing about how to import W3C tests into our repository
1312. # [21:40] <rniwa> Ms2ger: and we haven't had a good resolution on it :\
1313. # [21:41] * Ms2ger pulls up Chrome
1314. # [21:45] <Ms2ger> Inserting an element before a doctype
1315. # [21:45] <Ms2ger> Known?
1316. # [21:47] <Ms2ger> "Add inputmode attribute support, as per XHTML Basic 1.1"
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1319. # [21:55] <Ms2ger> rniwa, what does Node::inDocument() mean?
1320. # [21:56] <rniwa> Ms2ger: means that the node is still attached to the document.
1321. # [21:56] <rniwa> Ms2ger: Node::document() returns the owner document
1322. # [21:57] <Ms2ger> Mm
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1324. # [21:57] <Ms2ger> And it's always true for documents?
1325. # [21:58] <rniwa> Ms2ger: think so
1326. # [21:58] <rniwa> Ms2ger: see ConstructionType
1327. # [21:58] <rniwa> Ms2ger: in Node.h
1328. # [21:58] <rniwa> Ms2ger: CreateDocument = CreateContainer | InDocumentFlag
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1330. # [22:00] <Ms2ger> Whoa, you have an implementation of Notation
1331. # [22:00] <jgraham> Notation?
1332. # [22:00] <rniwa> Ms2ger: yeah...
1333. # [22:01] <Ms2ger> jgraham, http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html#ID-5431D1B9
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1335. # [22:01] <jgraham> Oh My
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1338. # [22:02] <Ms2ger> The file claims it's never instantiated, though
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1341. # [22:04] <Ms2ger> rniwa, HTML DOM?
1342. # [22:04] <rniwa> jgraham: i know, right?
1343. # [22:05] <rniwa> Ms2ger: i don't even know who added that code.
1344. # [22:05] <rniwa> Ms2ger: it prepares my involvement to webkit
1345. # [22:05] <Ms2ger> No, for the insertBefore bugs
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1347. # [22:08] * boaz is now known as boaz|away
1348. # [22:12] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
1349. # [22:13] <rniwa> JQUERY HAS ANSWERED
1350. # [22:13] <rniwa> SCRIPTING IS INTENTIONAL :D
1351. # [22:13] * boaz|away is now known as boaz
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1353. # [22:16] <hober> Velmont: :)
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1360. # [22:22] <Ms2ger> Heh
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1369. # [22:33] <Ms2ger> ojan, rniwa, enjoy :)
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1395. # [23:27] <Hixie> rniwa: i think it would be exactly the kind of crazy confusing behaviour the Web is famous for for things like appendChild and innerHTML to do the "useful" thing instead of being consistent with what they do everywhere else
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1398. # [23:35] <jgraham> Hixie: No more so than the HTML parser doing the "useful" thing
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1401. # [23:40] <Hixie> except we don't really have an alternative for the parser
1402. # [23:40] <Hixie> plus the parser has plenty of precedent for doing different things for different tags
1403. # [23:41] <rniwa> Hixie: i agree with you too.
1404. # [23:41] <rniwa> Hixie: i think it's probably saner for those APIs not to work on content fragment
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1408. # [23:49] <annevk> so we need at least 3 specifications to define :hover?
1409. # [23:49] <annevk> brilliant
1410. # [23:50] <annevk> no implementor is going to find that out :/
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1412. # [23:51] <zewt> show all three specs on the same page; hover an icon to pick which to see
1413. # [23:52] <annevk> the most important spec of those, hit testing, doesn't exist of course
1414. # [23:52] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
1415. # [23:54] <Hixie> annevk: i don't want to put it in html, but since they won't put it in selectors... (same with :active and the others)
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1419. # [23:57] <annevk> my cynical opinion of non-tree selectors defined by the CSS WG is that it's syntax plus some fluff words to give a rough hint of how things are supposed to work without actually defining how they work
1420. # [23:57] <annevk> which seems rather pointless
1421. # [23:59] <Hixie> yeah i don't really understand the reluctance
1422. # Session Close: Sat Jun 09 00:00:00 2012

The end :)