/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-06-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jun 09 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <annevk> oh I do, it's the idea that CSS is unrelated to everything else and therefore the specifications must be alien of that too
  4. # [00:03] <hober> it's crazy
  5. # [00:04] <annevk> yes
  6. # [00:04] <gsnedders> How long till someone writes a "CSS applied to DOM" spec?
  7. # [00:05] <Hixie> annevk: that's what i don't understand
  8. # [00:06] <annevk> Hixie: it's the mindset of some relatively influential people within the CSS WG
  9. # [00:06] <annevk> Hixie: I don't think it makes sense, but they seem kind of fixed on that
  10. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> Uh, what?
  11. # [00:07] <annevk> Hixie: I gave up arguing on this though
  12. # [00:07] <annevk> (and then later left the WG entirely)
  13. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> CSS defines how :hover works generically. HTML defines a special additional case that causes :hover to match, based on stuff that only exists in HTML.
  14. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> Don't bullshit, anne. ^_^
  15. # [00:09] <annevk> that's exactly what I was just saying...
  16. # [00:09] <annevk> well plus that hit testing is not defined
  17. # [00:09] <annevk> anyway, bedtime
  18. # [00:09] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@80.232.109.46) (Quit: annevk)
  19. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> I'd love to define hit-testing, but I don't know what actually needs to be defined.
  20. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> Like, at what level are we missing stuff?
  21. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> Hixie: The reluctance to put @label-related stuff into Selectors is that CSS applies to more than HTML, so if there are things that are specific to the host language, they should be defined by the host language.
  22. # [00:14] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:f2de:f1ff:fe8f:60c8)
  23. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> And, as long as the host spec is being actively editted, like HTML is, that's fine.
  24. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> If that wasn't true, we'd include it in the CSS spec just to have it defined somewhere.
  25. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> But seriously, if someone can explain to me what's actually needed for hit-testing, I'll write the spec for it.
  26. # [00:17] * Joins: veosotano_ (~veosotano@18.Red-83-44-153.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net)
  27. # [00:20] <rniwa> TabAtkins: the problem with hit-testing is that a lot of it will be necessarily platform dependent
  28. # [00:20] * Joins: mrbkap (~mrbkap@v-1025.fw1.scl3.mozilla.net)
  29. # [00:21] <rniwa> TabAtkins: e.g. hit testing for editing can't be spec'ed one way or other because each platform uses different conventions with respect to bidiretional text for example.
  30. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Is it? I mean, you have a coordinate, and a formatted page. Defining which element that coordinate hits shouldn't be difficult, I would assume.
  31. # [00:21] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i agree with anne that there's no point being generic. selectors should just give up and realise there is only one host language really.
  32. # [00:21] <dglazkov> YO
  33. # [00:21] <rniwa> TabAtkins: it is, unfortunately.
  34. # [00:21] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  35. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Hixie: But there isn't. SVG is a valid second host language.
  36. # [00:21] <Hixie> TabAtkins: it's the same language.
  37. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> rniwa: Okay, then I don't understand. ^_^ I'll need some more details at some point.
  38. # [00:22] <rniwa> TabAtkins: hit-testing on element might work
  39. # [00:22] <Hixie> TabAtkins: "html+svg+math+xml+css+dom+js+..."
  40. # [00:22] <rniwa> TabAtkins: but definitely not when you have text
  41. # [00:22] <rniwa> TabAtkins: presumably, you want to spec hit-testing on text as well right?
  42. # [00:22] <rniwa> it's kind of odd to have a spec that only specifies hit-testing on elements without text :\
  43. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> rniwa: For the purposes of CSS, no. I dunno if it's useful to specify text hit-testing.
  44. # [00:23] <rniwa> TabAtkins: ok.
  45. # [00:23] * shepazu writes all his web pages in MathML with inline HTML and SVG
  46. # [00:23] <rniwa> TabAtkins: how about things like first-lettter?
  47. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> rniwa: ::first-letter is exactly the same as any other element for this purpose.
  48. # [00:24] <rniwa> TabAtkins: and how about inline elements that are intersparsed because of UBA?
  49. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> rniwa: Their boxes still have definite positions given by the layout algorithm already.
  50. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> (iirc, it's somewhat handwavey on that point, though)
  51. # [00:24] <rniwa> TabAtkins: hm... i guess.
  52. # [00:25] <rniwa> TabAtkins: oh yeah, i guess it works as long as you don't define what happens to selection
  53. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> By the time you're doing hit-testing, you've already done layout and positioning, and just have a bunch of elements with geometry.
  54. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> Yeah, doing selection requires specifying it on text instead of elements.
  55. # [00:25] <rniwa> okay, that makes sense :)
  56. # [00:25] <rniwa> when I hear the word hit-testing, I automatically assume it involves text
  57. # [00:26] <rniwa> because that's what browsers do.
  58. # [00:26] <jamesr_> defining hit-testing with transforms would be great
  59. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> The two algorithms are pretty disjoint - you'd first hit-test against geometry to see which element was hit, then do it against text to see where in the element's text was hit.
  60. # [00:26] <jamesr_> that's a non-trivial, non-interoperable thing completely unrelated to text
  61. # [00:26] <rniwa> jamesr: yeah, but that'll be hard to spec & implement :\
  62. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> jamesr_: Interesting that it's non-trivial. The definition is pretty trivial when you work directly with geometry.
  63. # [00:26] <rniwa> TabAtkins: not in webkit but you could create a conceptual boundary like that, yes
  64. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> rniwa: Yeah, I have no idea what sort of division would be most useful for browsers.
  65. # [00:27] * miketaylr is now known as miketaylrawaylol
  66. # [00:27] <rniwa> TabAtkins: i think it's okay as long as the spec isn't algorithmic
  67. # [00:28] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  68. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> rniwa: Surely hit-testing for :hover and mousein/out events and such doesn't care about text?
  69. # [00:28] <Hixie> well, if you have inlines they involve text, right?
  70. # [00:28] <Hixie> their position i mean
  71. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> Hixie: No, they involve the layout boxes generated by the text.
  72. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> The geometry of the text itself is irrelevant.
  73. # [00:28] <Hixie> i guess i don't really understand the question
  74. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Me too, I think.
  75. # [00:29] <Hixie> seems like the geometry of the text is what affects where the inlines will end up, but *shrug*
  76. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> See: "I don't know what actually needs to be defined".
  77. # [00:29] <Hixie> we'll have to ask anne tomorrow :-)
  78. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Geometry of the text is completely UA specific.
  79. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Based on the text layout engine.
  80. # [00:30] <rniwa> define what you all mean by "geometry of text"
  81. # [00:31] <rniwa> anyways, CSSOM appears to expose CaretPosition or something
  82. # [00:31] <rniwa> that is potentially text related
  83. # [00:31] <jamesr_> TabAtkins, intersection! subdivision! not-rectangularity
  84. # [00:31] <Hixie> surely the TrueType spec defines what the text geometry needs to be
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  86. # [00:31] <jamesr_> TabAtkins, 3d transforms are non-interoperable today
  87. # [00:31] <jamesr_> (or last i checked)
  88. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> jamesr_: Bah, that's all efficiency. Conceptually it's: take a bunch of elements, get their hittable geometry, transform as appropriate, sort by descending z-order, then find the first that contains the given point.
  89. # [00:33] <jamesr_> sort what by descending z-order? there is no global sort order for elements
  90. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Tell that to the engines and their slightly non-interop text behavior for bunches of things.
  91. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> Yes there is.
  92. # [00:34] <jamesr_> only if you subdivide
  93. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Oh, with 3d transforms involved, yeah.
  94. # [00:34] <jamesr_> right. http://greggman.com/downloads/examples/intersecting-elements-3d-css.html
  95. # [00:34] <Hixie> TabAtkins: "slightly" doesn't mean there's no interop, it just means interop is defined to be within certain error margins.
  96. # [00:34] <Hixie> TabAtkins: that's pretty common on the web
  97. # [00:35] <jamesr_> without 3d it's pretty simple and probably fairly easy to spec
  98. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I'm not going to be the one to define that, particularly with things like synthetic bolding and the like.
  99. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> I'm willing to say "lay out the text, and give us the bounding box".
  100. # [00:36] <Hixie> TabAtkins: clearly i'm not volunteering for that either :-)
  101. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> jamesr_: Yeah, should be.
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  103. # [00:36] <jamesr_> interestingly, i found out that in IE some invisible elements are invisible to hit-testing
  104. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> Hm? You mean like visibility:hidden?
  105. # [00:36] * Quits: espadrine (~espadrine@nat/mozilla/x-bbwjkwflzvrsvtsp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  106. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> Or like "color:transparent; background:transparent;"?
  107. # [00:36] <jamesr_> setting background-color: grey changed whether an element got clicks or not
  108. # [00:37] <jamesr_> latter
  109. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> lolwut
  110. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> I assume they're optimizing away the draw, and it accidentally skips the "add to hit-test structure" too.
  111. # [00:37] <jamesr_> i was wondering if it was a clickjack defense
  112. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Ooh, maybe.
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  114. # [00:37] <jamesr_> behavior was different for <div> vs <canvas>
  115. # [00:39] <Hixie> IE has done this for ages
  116. # [00:39] <Hixie> i wrote a spec for it once (as best i could)
  117. # [00:39] <Hixie> it was terrifyingly complicated
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  120. # [00:40] <smaug____> yeah, it is IEism from IE4 or so
  121. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> Bleh.
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  147. # [00:45] <smaug____> TabAtkins: FYI, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102695
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  169. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> smaug____: Thanks!
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  179. # [01:12] <jamesr_> Hixie, any idea where that spec you wrote is these days?
  180. # [01:13] <jamesr_> i'm morbidly curious
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  229. # [04:49] <Hixie> jamesr_: no idea. i think hallvord was the last custodian, try asking him.
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  240. # [05:20] <MikeSmith> Hixie: which spec was that?
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  248. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> "An expert is a man who has stopped thinking because he knows."
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  251. # [06:38] <Hixie> MikeSmith: hit testing in IE
  252. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> ah
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  270. # [08:03] <annevk> Latest on hit testing was this http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Aug/0407.html
  271. # [08:03] <annevk> Then tantek was going to add it to CSS3 UI
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  273. # [08:04] <annevk> Then that did not happen and it was going to be CSS4 UI
  274. # [08:04] <annevk> I kind of lost hope. They should just have let Leif do it
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  277. # [08:14] <annevk> jamesr_: Hixie: ^^
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  281. # [08:36] <rniwa> annevk: hit testing is hard :\
  282. # [08:36] <rniwa> annevk: i think one thing we need to do is decide the scope of the spec.
  283. # [08:37] <rniwa> annevk: if you try to spec everything including caret position, selection, etc... then it becomes an impossible task
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  285. # [08:37] <rniwa> annevk: if, however, we restrict ourselves to be focusing on things like just elements, then there might be some hope :)
  286. # [08:38] <annevk> rniwa: I've mostly been thinking about mouse events and :hover, but editing is indeed a problem too
  287. # [08:38] <rniwa> annevk: yeah, just spec'ing mouse events and :hover will be good for most use cases.
  288. # [08:38] <rniwa> annevk: i don't think we can spec hit testing for editing because of different platform conventions
  289. # [08:38] <annevk> e.g. http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#dom-document-caretpositionfrompoint is not defined much at all
  290. # [08:39] <rniwa> annevk: i mean can you imagine having to specify 5-6 different conventions for different caret behaviors around bidi embedding boundaries?
  291. # [08:39] <annevk> rniwa: I can imagine it would be painful :)
  292. # [08:39] <rniwa> annevk: i know at least windows, mac, and linux all have different behaviors when you click around bidi boundary.
  293. # [08:40] <rniwa> annevk: not to mention i think android & chrome os also use different conventions from all the rest :(
  294. # [08:40] <rniwa> annevk: i'm sure there are plenty more on this.
  295. # [08:40] <annevk> yeah maybe once you get to that point it would be okay to let it be platform-dependent with some rough guidelines
  296. # [08:40] <rniwa> yup.
  297. # [08:40] <rniwa> it's not realistic to spec everything at some point.
  298. # [08:41] <annevk> but which text you hit depending on which element it is in would be a great start
  299. # [08:41] <rniwa> annevk: btw, we should really fix click event
  300. # [08:41] <rniwa> annevk: it's insane that we don't fire click event whenever cursor moves across an element boundary :\
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  302. # [08:41] <rniwa> annevk: (the spec currently says we fire click only if mousedown & mouseup happen on the same target)
  303. # [08:41] <rniwa> annevk: (which is very unlikely scenario if you have tiny spans, etc...)
  304. # [08:42] <annevk> is that actually what is implemented?
  305. # [08:42] <rniwa> annevk: yeah, in webkit :(
  306. # [08:42] <rniwa> annevk: i really want to fix it.
  307. # [08:42] <rniwa> annevk: because our current behavior is insanely bad from UX stand point of view.
  308. # [08:42] <rniwa> annevk: i think almost all other browsers do something different, which i don't quite understand.
  309. # [08:42] <annevk> UI Events spec is kind of a mess
  310. # [08:43] <rniwa> annevk: e.g. IE always fires click event
  311. # [08:43] <rniwa> annevk: indeed.
  312. # [08:43] <rniwa> annevk: but that's the most important kind of events!
  313. # [08:43] <rniwa> annevk: i mean... who cares about all those exotic events. UI events are the one developers use the most.
  314. # [08:44] <rniwa> but it's kind of understandable the way it is now. spec'ing UI events is hard :\
  315. # [08:44] <annevk> I guess the problem is that they're hard and that properly defining them is not something many people can do
  316. # [08:44] <annevk> :)
  317. # [08:44] <rniwa> annevk: yup.
  318. # [08:45] <rniwa> annevk: i've seen enough code in webkit to know that much.
  319. # [08:45] <annevk> e.g. focus events are a mess too
  320. # [08:46] <rniwa> annevk: yeah.
  321. # [08:46] <rniwa> annevk: oh my... don't get me started on focusin, focusout, etc...
  322. # [08:46] <rniwa> they're giving me nightmares.
  323. # [08:47] <annevk> better not talk about them now then :p
  324. # [08:47] <rniwa> you can talk about it.
  325. # [08:47] <rniwa> but i might just rant for an hour :P
  326. # [08:48] <rniwa> annevk: i think the biggest headache for me right now is the relationship between selection & focus
  327. # [08:48] <rniwa> annevk: in webkit, focus follows selection
  328. # [08:48] <rniwa> on all other browsers, selection follows focus
  329. # [08:48] <rniwa> meaning that if you type something, the character appears at where selection is in webkit
  330. # [08:48] <rniwa> but at where focus is on all other browsers.
  331. # [08:48] <rniwa> apparently this is Mac-ism
  332. # [08:50] <annevk> how do you reproduce that?
  333. # [08:52] <rniwa> annevk: put focus & selection on different nodes
  334. # [08:52] <rniwa> and type a character
  335. # [08:54] <annevk> oh if you select something via an API focus is not changed?
  336. # [08:54] <rniwa> annevk: yeah something like that
  337. # [08:55] <rniwa> it's a little tricky to do.
  338. # [08:56] <annevk> I need to go get breakfast before they stop serving it
  339. # [08:57] <rniwa> annevk: we'll see if i can come up with an example by the time you come back ;)
  340. # [08:57] <annevk> I've kind of wanted to define UI events for a long time, but the last time I attempted with keyboard events I got stuck
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  343. # [09:02] <rniwa> annevk: https://bug-56271-attachments.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=85623 is a fun demo
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  345. # [09:03] <rniwa> (from https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56271)
  346. # [09:04] <rniwa> Ms2ger: hi Ms2ger! how about some UI events discussion :D
  347. # [09:04] <Ms2ger> How about replaceChild? :)
  348. # [09:05] <rniwa> Ms2ger: LOL. I see what you did there.
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  350. # [09:10] <Velmont> Oh what a beautiful moorning~
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  354. # [09:23] * Ms2ger writes some tests for WebKit to fail
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  367. # [09:58] <asmodai> annevk: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Math/MathJax_testing
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  383. # [10:58] <annevk> Ms2ger: http://jamesmckay.net/2012/06/you-can-no-longer-afford-not-to-take-git-seriously/
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  385. # [11:02] <annevk> uhm http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fhtml5boilerplate.com%2F
  386. # [11:02] <annevk> paul_irish: ^^
  387. # [11:03] <Ms2ger> <!doctype html public "✰"
  388. # [11:03] <Ms2ger> Oh really
  389. # [11:03] <Ms2ger> http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org%2Fissues%2Fdata.html
  390. # [11:03] <annevk> HTML is hard
  391. # [11:04] <Ms2ger> Let's go shopping?
  392. # [11:04] <annevk> it's raining outside
  393. # [11:05] <Ms2ger> Sunny here
  394. # [11:05] <Ms2ger> ... for now
  395. # [11:07] <Velmont> You say I'm leaving sunny southern europe to go up to rainy Norway? :-(
  396. # [11:08] <annevk> Velmont: you could stay :)
  397. # [11:09] <Velmont> annevk: And let y'all get the best places at the new office? Neh, I'll pass :]
  398. # [11:09] <Ms2ger> We have an office in Paris if you're interested in working further south? :)
  399. # [11:10] <Velmont> lol ;D
  400. # [11:12] <Ms2ger> (The same is true for other Operians, of course)
  401. # [11:13] <annevk> Ms2ger: are you actually employed these days or just helping out Mozilla recruiting on your personal time?
  402. # [11:13] <Ms2ger> The latter :)
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  404. # [11:19] <Velmont> Why does everyone try to brain drain Opera all the time?
  405. # [11:19] <Velmont> What about stealing a bit from the others?
  406. # [11:21] <Ms2ger> We want smart people
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  413. # [11:43] <Velmont> MikeSmith: I updated http://w3c-test.org/webappsec/tests/cors/submitted/opera/staging/resources/cors-makeheader.php -- makes it possible to send 2 allow-origin headers in response. For some extra tests for bugs in WebKit and Fx.
  414. # [11:44] <Velmont> MikeSmith: I might update it even more on monday, because I see I'm not checking the case where crossorigin.site.com -> site.com, all the tests are doing site.com -> crossorigin.site.com. Might be some bugs hiding there.
  415. # [11:45] <Ms2ger> Bugs in Gecko? Couldn't be
  416. # [11:45] <annevk> Opera found them first
  417. # [11:45] <Ms2ger> Well played
  418. # [11:48] <Ms2ger> And Opera had the weird throwing-nodes-as-exceptions first? :)
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  428. # [12:50] <Von_Davidicus> Why is it that, in HTML5, the contents of a header attribute MUST refer to the ID of a <th> element in the same table, and what can I do to get around that headache?
  429. # [12:56] <Ms2ger> Don't use that attribute if you're going to misuse it
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  432. # [12:57] <Von_Davidicus> Well, I gotta use SOMETHING to make the JS on my webpage work--I was using the headers attributes to refer to the IDs of <input> elements.
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  435. # [13:08] <Von_Davidicus> I guess I could use the class attribute... *Misses axis, which was another useful info dump attribute*
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  445. # [14:06] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, http://w3c-test.org/framework/ is broken
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  523. # [20:05] <methuselahah> where can I find the most detailed html5 javascript documentation for html5 video?
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  564. # Session Close: Sun Jun 10 00:00:01 2012

The end :)