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# Session Start: Sun Jun 10 00:00:01 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [05:46] <Von_Davidicus> So what, precisely, are the advantages of upgrading a page from HTML 4.01 to HTML 5?
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# [06:24] <Hixie> Von_Davidicus: what do you mean by "upgrading a page from HTML 4.01 to HTML 5"?
# [06:25] <Von_Davidicus> As in changing the Document Type Declaration to <!DOCTYPE html> and implementing the needed changes to make it all valid and--if need be--fixing the JavaScript so that it works with the resultant code.
# [06:26] <Hixie> there's no advantage to changing the doctype line unless you are changing it from something that used to trigger quirks mode
# [06:26] <Hixie> if that is the case, the advantage is slightly saner browser behaviour in weird cases
# [06:27] <Von_Davidicus> I don't think it triggered quirks mode.
# [06:27] <Hixie> if it's not valid contemporary HTML then the advantage to making it so is you avoid whatever problems are the reason for us to make it invalid
# [06:27] <Hixie> but if the page is working fine, there's no reason to do make work
# [06:28] <Von_Davidicus> Well, according to the HTML5 validator, I was abusing the tar out of the headers element.
# [06:28] <Hixie> (most HTML4 docs should still be valid today if they were strict mode docs and didn't do anything problematic)
# [06:28] <Hixie> <headers>?
# [06:28] <Von_Davidicus> er...
# [06:28] <Von_Davidicus> headers attribute.
# [06:28] <Hixie> aah
# [06:28] <Von_Davidicus> They weren't referring to an ID set in the table, but to IDs of input elements.
# [06:28] <Hixie> yeah, the validator is much better now than validators in the html4 days were
# [06:28] <Hixie> hah
# [06:29] <Hixie> that is indeed the kind of thing the modern validators will catch if they're following the spec :-)
# [06:30] <Von_Davidicus> I kinda like the [data-*] attribute--that's what I used to replace what I was using the headers attributes for (I came up with [data-keywords])
# [06:33] <Von_Davidicus> Is there a way to say "this data-* attribute should work like an IDREFS attribute"?
# [06:36] <Von_Davidicus> One thing I liked about using the headers attribute was if I had a keyword that was misspelled or something (which meant the script wouldn't work), it showed up as a warning. The relevant page is http://www.mrinitialman.com/Furcadia/DragonSpeakLines.shtml
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# [06:46] <Hixie> Von_Davidicus: data-* is just useful for scripts, so the way you make it work like an idrefs attribute is to make the script treat it like an idref attribute
# [06:48] <Hixie> Von_Davidicus: if you want warnings, just have your script check that the values are right and call console.warning() if they're not
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# [07:04] <Von_Davidicus> Okay.
# [07:07] <Von_Davidicus> By the way, with the way you phrased your comment, you made it sound like data-* was created mainly for scripts. Is that true? :)
# [07:28] <Hixie> only for scripts, pretty much
# [07:28] <Von_Davidicus> *Nod.*
# [07:46] <Von_Davidicus> I'll admit--I've done some pages where an upgrade from HTML 2.0 wouldn't change much.
# [07:47] <Hixie> i know the feeling :-)
# [07:48] <Von_Davidicus> Oh, and I've figured out something: I've finally discovered that XSLT is great when it's used as a client-side processing language (such as referencing multiple XML files or creating an SVG diagram out of an XHTML document). How does it hold up against, say, a *server*-side processing language? Aaaaaaahm....
# [07:49] <Von_Davidicus> So, it's got advantages over XHTML.
# [07:49] * Hixie is skeptical that XSLT is great anywhere, but ok
# [07:49] <Von_Davidicus> The only Server-Side language XSLT can outperform? Server-side includes. And I'm not certain about that, either.
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# [09:30] <Von_Davidicus> Thanks, Hixie. That script-based solution works well.
# [09:30] <Hixie> np
# [09:31] <Von_Davidicus> I think I've realized why I use XSLT.
# [09:31] <Von_Davidicus> I think I do it to show that I *can* pull it off.
# [09:32] <Hixie> that's a fine reason to solve a rubix cube
# [09:33] <Hixie> not necessarily a good reason to use a programming language :-P
# [09:35] <Von_Davidicus> Maybe not. But I'd hate to let something I learned go comepletely to waste. And I *have* used webhosts before that didn't have server-side capabilities.
# [09:35] <Hixie> heh
# [09:35] <Hixie> i recommend reading up on something called the "sunk cost fallacy"
# [09:35] <Von_Davidicus> *glares at Furnation*
# [09:39] <Von_Davidicus> Furnation is/was (these days, mostly 'was'), a *very* well-known web host within a certain fandom, and it was one of those hosts that ran on donations as well as their own publishing company. The latter was a good idea and might have carried the host better if they hadn't dropped the ball so often they left a permanent dent on the floor.
# [09:39] <Von_Davidicus> But it had no server-side capabilities. Not even includes.
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# [09:40] <Von_Davidicus> So I suppose in *that* situation, it would be either hardcode everything, use XSLT, or use frames.
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# [09:58] <Von_Davidicus> Not sure what would be considered the bigger coding sin these days: XSLT or frames.
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# [10:06] <Ms2ger> XSLT
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# [10:19] <AryehGregor> Von_Davidicus, you could build it all using AJAX!
# [10:20] <AryehGregor> Then at least if someone else needed to take over maintaining it, maybe they would understand your code . . .
# [10:21] <Von_Davidicus> AJAX is based on JavaScript. I'm not sure which would be worse, trying to understand someone else's XSLT or trying to understand someone else's JavaScript.
# [10:21] <AryehGregor> A lot of people actually know JavaScript.
# [10:22] <AryehGregor> Nobody except you and four other people knows XSLT, or indeed has ever heard of it.
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# [10:22] <AryehGregor> The other four people are members of the XSLT WG.
# [10:23] <AryehGregor> (I'm being mean -- I'm sure it's better-known than lots of other niche technologies. In #whatwg we're just bitter about it because it's one of the technologies *we* have to deal with and it just makes our lives more difficult.)
# [10:23] <AryehGregor> (Slightly.)
# [10:24] <Von_Davidicus> why does it make your lives more difficult?
# [10:25] <AryehGregor> Because browsers still support it.
# [10:25] <AryehGregor> And it's fairly large and complicated.
# [10:25] <AryehGregor> The web is complicated enough.
# [10:25] <AryehGregor> We don't need more things that are complicated but that almost no one uses.
# [10:28] <Von_Davidicus> How does that get in the way of HTML5 development?
# [10:28] <AryehGregor> It doesn't get in the way of it, much. But we're trying to define the web platform as a whole, so things that aren't worth the effort to define and implement properly are things we'd prefer just go away.
# [10:29] <Von_Davidicus> Oh, okay.
# [10:29] <AryehGregor> XSLT is marginal and self-contained enough that I don't think we hate it too much, though.
# [10:30] <AryehGregor> Unlike, say, quirks mode.
# [10:30] <Von_Davidicus> I just remembered something: Doesn't AJAX require the *server* to support it? Because I think I tried AJAX on Furnation and it didn't work.
# [10:30] <AryehGregor> No, I'm pretty sure not.
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# [10:30] <AryehGregor> It's just an async HTTP request. (Or sync, as the case may be.)
# [10:31] * Von_Davidicus looks at his Coach Random Website, and wonders if it's worth it to switch it over to HTML5.
# [10:31] <Ms2ger> Don't speak of sync xhr ;)
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# [10:33] <Von_Davidicus> Why not?
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# [10:44] <Von_Davidicus> What would you guys say?
# [10:44] <Von_Davidicus> Currently, it's an XML+XSLT+XSD website.
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# [10:49] <AryehGregor> Sync XHR murders performance. It causes the page to freeze until the request completes.
# [10:49] <AryehGregor> These days we never ever expose sync APIs to regular pages unless they're guaranteed to return very quickly.
# [10:49] <AryehGregor> Anything else is async, like IDB.
# [10:49] <AryehGregor> localStorage is similar.
# [10:50] <AryehGregor> We expose sync APIs to workers, though.
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# [10:58] <Von_Davidicus> Hello, annevk.
# [10:59] <annevk> hey
# [11:00] <Von_Davidicus> Question: should I take an old site of mine that's written in XML+XSLT+XSD and redo it as HTML5?
# [11:04] <annevk> heh, that's kind of hard for me to answer :)
# [11:04] <Philip`> Von_Davidicus: Yes - it might not provide any benefit to the site itself if it's already working fine, but it might cure you of your constant desire to use XSLT
# [11:04] <Von_Davidicus> It *is* online.
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# [11:07] * AryehGregor concurs with Philip`
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# [11:23] <Von_Davidicus> So, Philip? Instead of using XSLT as a client-side language, I should be using COBOL for server-side?
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# [11:34] <Von_Davidicus> Question about HTML5. Is it possible to have one list reference another as being a continuation of that list?
# [11:35] <Ms2ger> No
# [11:35] <Ms2ger> You can use the start attribute to fix up the numbering
# [11:35] <Von_Davidicus> Oh, the start attribute is back?
# [11:36] <Von_Davidicus> I know HTML 4.01 Strict didn't allow it.
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# [11:36] <Ms2ger> It is
# [11:39] <Von_Davidicus> Only time I'd ever used it was to see what Lynx would do with an <ol> that went over the numbering limit.
# [11:41] <Ms2ger> What did it do?
# [11:43] <Von_Davidicus> It went from 2,147,483,647 to -2,147,483,648
# [11:44] <Von_Davidicus> That being said, it's hard to imagine an ordered list so long that it would surpass the limit for the roman numeral styles.
# [11:48] <Von_Davidicus> The highest they can show is MMMCMXCIX or mmmcmxcix (depending on whether you're using upper or lower case). That's 3,999 <li> elements (unless you're playing with the count), which gets into the realm of "can the average computer handle this webpage". :)
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# [17:11] <Ms2ger> "The jQuery forum appears to be completely dysfunctional without JavaScript enabled, which is sad"
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# [18:37] * gsnedders wonders about optional static typing for ES again, and decides it's probably better not to think about
# [18:38] <Ms2ger> Correct
# [18:38] <gsnedders> So, SpiderMonkey is impl ES6 by default, V8 is impl ES6 behind an experimental pref…
# [18:41] * gsnedders wonders
# [18:43] <Ms2ger> We really should have implemented Number.mozIsNaN...
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# [18:46] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Yes, prefixes are definitely better!
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# [18:51] <gsnedders> Heh, broken 10k unread emails on www-style.
# [18:52] <gsnedders> I really should just leave the WG.
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# [19:07] <Hixie> i wish addHitRegion() would be implemented already :-)
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# [19:55] <Hixie> is there a spec for MouseEvent?
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# [19:55] <Hixie> (for UAs firing events using it, that is, not for the interface)
# [19:56] <Hixie> in particular i'm interested in what said spec says to set offsetX to
# [19:56] <Hixie> hm, looks like http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#extensions-to-the-mouseevent-interface does it
# [19:57] <Hixie> wonder how accurate that is
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# [19:59] <Ms2ger> Hixie, only one way to find out... Write tests ;)
# [20:00] <Hixie> kinda am
# [20:00] <Hixie> (i'm writing code that uses it, we'll see if it works!)
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# [20:12] <Hixie> aw man
# [20:12] <Hixie> want. addHitRegion().
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# [20:54] <jgraham> Hixie: If writing code that used something counted as writing tests, the web would be well tested and have great interoperability
# [21:05] <asmodai> I guess most of you saw http://vimeo.com/43380467 ?
# [21:06] <Ms2ger> I've heard of it
# [21:08] <Ms2ger> hsivonen debunked some points at http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Bad_Ideas
# [21:10] <Hixie> people fall into three camps as far as i can see:
# [21:10] <Hixie> 1. people who don't realise the web sucks
# [21:11] <Hixie> 2. people who realise the web sucks but don't understand why it is so wildly successful and so make silly suggestions for improving it that themselves fail
# [21:11] <Hixie> 3. people who write web standards and go home and cry every night
# [21:12] <Hixie> the guy in that video falls very clearly into #2: he doesn't understand what he's criticising
# [21:13] <Hixie> (e.g. he thinks the w3c had anything to do with canvas having .arc(), he doesn't understand html's version history, he doesn't understand how paragraphs are specced, etc)
# [21:13] * asmodai pats Hixie
# [21:13] <asmodai> Hixie: Hope you don't cry too much every night
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# [21:18] <asmodai> I personally think he does have some valid points on weird behaviour and some things not being straightforward.
# [21:19] <Hixie> yes
# [21:19] <Hixie> the web sucks
# [21:19] <asmodai> And in some other areas he really generalises.
# [21:19] <Hixie> nobody argues that
# [21:19] <asmodai> Heh
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# [21:24] <jarek> why there are no b-splines in SVG?
# [21:25] <jarek> were they considered not useful enough? Is there an easy way to emulate them with beziers?
# [21:25] <Ms2ger> Because W3C
# [21:25] * Ms2ger runs
# [21:25] <jarek> Silverlight has b-splines...
# [21:27] <Hixie> you may have better luck getting a real answer from #svg on w3c's irc network
# [21:27] <Hixie> since it looks like none of us know :-)
# [21:27] <Hixie> canvas doesn't have b-splines because apple didn't add them when they invented canvas and nobody has made a convincing argument for them since
# [21:27] <Hixie> but i dunno about svg
# [21:28] <asmodai> Ms2ger: lol
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# [21:32] <spobat> :)
# [21:32] <Ms2ger> Good morning
# [21:32] <Philip`> Canvas should support NURBS, because NURBS is a great acronym
# [21:32] <Ms2ger> Philip`, only after you fix all the canvas test bugs :)
# [21:32] <spobat> non uniform rational b splines?
# [21:32] <Ms2ger> Apparently so
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# [22:56] <gsnedders> Hixie: What's the reason not to have a circle API in canvas, BTW? "API usability" not a good enough reason? :)
# [22:58] <Hixie> what would it do?
# [22:58] <Hixie> add a circle to the path? fill a circle?
# [23:00] <gsnedders> Hixie: The same as drawArc?
# [23:01] <Hixie> assuming you mean the same as "arc()" (there's no drawArc), then what's the point of having two functions that do the same thing
# [23:06] <gsnedders> Hixie: API usability.
# [23:06] <gsnedders> arc() isn't obviously what you want for a circle.
# [23:07] <Hixie> API usability is as much helped by adding convenience functions as it is hurt by having a large surface area
# [23:07] <gsnedders> Sure, there's no *technical* advantage.
# [23:07] <Hixie> is ellipse() obviously what you want for a circle?
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# Session Close: Mon Jun 11 00:00:00 2012
The end :)