/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-06-20 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  132. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> reading message about iterators in WebIDL
  133. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2012AprJun/0239.html
  134. # [04:17] * MikeSmith looks around for heycam
  135. # [04:18] * heycam has replying to that on his todo list for today
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  140. # [04:36] <karlcow> hmmm I was reading the TAG minutes
  141. # [04:36] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/06/13-minutes#item02
  142. # [04:36] <karlcow> it seems there is a good will but completely missing the target on frustrations.
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  149. # [05:01] <tantek> that's some dry reading karlcow
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  160. # [05:18] <nessy> is whatwg.org down?
  161. # [05:21] <miketaylr> seems to be for me, nessy
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  169. # [05:41] <karlcow> tantek: I would say completely humid. It is super hot and humid tonight in Montreal
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  171. # [05:44] <MikeSmith> nessy, miketaylr, whatwg.org working for me
  172. # [05:44] <miketaylr> MikeSmith: yeah wfm now too
  173. # [05:45] <MikeSmith> k
  174. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> karlcow: good that at least there seems to be some clear recognition that "disconnect from community"
  175. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> but as far as "People don't care about architecture" and "Persuading community that arch. matters", I think that's the wrong way of looking at the problem
  176. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> whatwg and everybody working on HTML5 and APis care about architecture
  177. # [05:47] <MikeSmith> difference is that they become overly religious about architectural purity to the degree that it trumps everything else
  178. # [05:47] <karlcow> yes I have the same feeling, just not the same idea of what the architecture should be.
  179. # [05:48] <MikeSmith> I meant, difference is that whatwg et all *don't* become overly religious about architectural purity
  180. # [05:48] <karlcow> with on top of that, bruise and arguments between people which doesn't help.
  181. # [05:48] <karlcow> Not sure about purity. Each community is purist with regards to its own thought framework. :)
  182. # [05:49] <MikeSmith> karlcow: in the minds of some the idea of what good architecture is keeping everything cleanly separated, "modularized", extensible, all those same principles they want to elevate the importance of
  183. # [05:50] <MikeSmith> of course the problem is, the Web platform is not clean
  184. # [05:50] <karlcow> yup different ideas of what the architecture should be. :)
  185. # [05:50] <MikeSmith> it's messy and hard to separate out things neeetly
  186. # [05:50] <MikeSmith> and their are costs to modularization and extensibility, along with whatever benefits they have
  187. # [05:51] <MikeSmith> modularization can actually make it much harder to get good interoperability
  188. # [05:51] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|brb
  189. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> and adding extensibility hooks can make things way more complicated than the actual real-world use cases on the table require
  190. # [05:52] <karlcow> I think what the TAG could try would be in the sake of discussion is look at the vernacular architecture. Aka the shelters, farms, dirt walls, etc. and how it could help define something which encompasses more than one way of doing things. :)
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  192. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> and extensibility itself is not a use case
  193. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> eh?
  194. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> dirt walls?
  195. # [05:52] <karlcow> let me find the right name
  196. # [05:53] <karlcow> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pise
  197. # [05:53] <MikeSmith> Web Sockets protocol is a classic case of architecture/extensibility focus have huge complexity costs
  198. # [05:53] * MikeSmith reads karlcow link
  199. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> karlcow: I see
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  201. # [05:57] <karlcow> [redacted] I had written more non sense about architecture ☺
  202. # [05:57] <karlcow> 23:48 here
  203. # [05:57] <MikeSmith> heh
  204. # [05:57] <MikeSmith> night night
  205. # [05:57] <MikeSmith> you mean you're heading off for the evening?
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  207. # [05:58] <karlcow> in a few minutes. I'm human, I need my share of lullabies and dreams :)
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  222. # [07:04] <MikeSmith> hmm
  223. # [07:04] <MikeSmith> «Wouldn't it be great if the power of CSS3 / JS could enable a designer / developer to customize how a browser window looks? Imagine the freedom of expression allowed for a designer / coder who is not limited to a simple viewport encased within a cumbersome looking "Chrome" based window?»
  224. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> no actually, not sure that would be so great at all
  225. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> http://iwantaneff.in/chromeless/
  226. # [07:11] <zcorpan> wow the people who get those tweets must hate chromeless by now
  227. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> heh
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  229. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> I admire the approach for getting attention
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  231. # [07:18] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1608 chrome doesn't run the w(1) script
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  267. # [08:43] <zcorpan> "because only you jeff aids and you just sixteen are guaranteed city use any" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhVfIyFPWAA (15:28 with captions enabled)
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  275. # [09:02] <Von_Davidicus> I've been wondering if it would be worth it to leave the old Coach Random website alongside the new one... (the old one being the XML-based website)
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  279. # [09:17] <Von_Davidicus> Hello, annevk.
  280. # [09:18] <annevk> mornings
  281. # [09:19] <annevk> "Each community is purist with regards to its own thought framework." is nice :)
  282. # [09:19] <Von_Davidicus> Heh...
  283. # [09:20] <Von_Davidicus> So. Question. Even though XML+XSLT+(XSD+DTD) is a ridiculous setup, is it a bad thing that I'm still kinda proud of pulling it off?
  284. # [09:20] <annevk> not at all
  285. # [09:21] <annevk> it's nice to know the technologies that are out there so you can learn from them
  286. # [09:21] <annevk> at some point in time I thought "generic XML" was the future too
  287. # [09:21] * Von_Davidicus is working on changing the Coach Random website to a PHP/SQL setup.
  288. # [09:22] <Von_Davidicus> I must admit--it made for a very small website in terms of file sizes.
  289. # [09:22] <Von_Davidicus> And, frankly, it was fun to do.
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  291. # [09:30] <annevk> "it's good having putting documents through the Rec process, because you have to identify WGs from which you need feedback" this TAG stuff is kind of sad
  292. # [09:31] <annevk> "we should liaise for example with WHATWG" well that was unexpected :)
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  294. # [09:31] <annevk> although I'm not sure how such a liaison would work...
  295. # [09:31] <zcorpan> maybe they'll join the whatwg list?
  296. # [09:33] * Joins: Kolombiken (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
  297. # [09:33] <annevk> it would be kind of interesting to have a technical discussion on architecture now and then
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  307. # [09:43] <kennyluck> I can't quite imagine how such a liaison would be useful.
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  310. # [09:51] <annevk> kennyluck: try saying "yes" more often for a while and see how it turns out ;)
  311. # [09:53] <kennyluck> annevk, yes man. Though I am just trying to be get inspiration in how such a thing would work.
  312. # [09:53] <kennyluck> Appraently Hixie and some other folks don't like telecoms, so there's only either IRC or mailing list.
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  315. # [09:54] <annevk> I think Hixie has actually had lunch or some such with the TAG once, but it didn't really go anywhere
  316. # [09:56] <annevk> http://xkcd.com/1071/large/ :)
  317. # [09:57] <annevk> we also had lunch with the W3C AB at some point, but I'm not sure that went much anywhere either, but they're a rather slow group so maybe next year or so :)
  318. # [10:02] <annevk> ugh, vacation auto-responders
  319. # [10:02] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@office.oslo.opera.com)
  320. # [10:05] <annevk> Hixie: should we change class=domintro to class=intro so it can be used for other things too? e.g. CSS pseudo-elements...
  321. # [10:08] <volkmar> annevk: you said that we need to reference HTML to define the event handler attributes
  322. # [10:08] <volkmar> but can't we move the related part of the spec to DOM ?
  323. # [10:08] <volkmar> a lot of API might use those event handlers attributes
  324. # [10:09] <annevk> no
  325. # [10:09] <annevk> volkmar: though if you figure out how to work around the issues listed in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16477 maybe we can
  326. # [10:10] <kennyluck> Regular lunch/meetings are even more synchronous then telecons, which I consider unfair.
  327. # [10:11] <annevk> kennyluck: well they're equally synchronous; I was just trying to point out that there is some precedent of that happening
  328. # [10:14] <kennyluck> annevk, kk.
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  332. # [10:26] <jgraham> Hixie is known to not like telecoms - http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1263974578&count=1 right?
  333. # [10:26] <jgraham> (sorry ;)
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  335. # [10:28] <volkmar> annevk: the question might sounds stupid but can't we just move the minimum so APIs can use onfoo handlers, without carring about all those HTML specfic stuff?
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  337. # [10:28] <annevk> volkmar: I haven't found a way
  338. # [10:29] <volkmar> ok :(
  339. # [10:30] <annevk> maybe there can be some kind of split, but I'm not sure if that helps implementors since it should be a logical unit implementation-wise
  340. # [10:30] <annevk> and it does not help developers either trying to understand how they work
  341. # [10:32] <volkmar> it would help specifications to not depend on HTML5 just for event handlers attributes
  342. # [10:33] <annevk> they're the least important when it comes to constituencies
  343. # [10:34] <annevk> besides, most APIs use the event loop, depend on origin, the Window object, Navigator, etc. anyway
  344. # [10:35] <annevk> I'd be interesting to see one that only requires this
  345. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> hey all you Tidy fans and Google Docs fans, I just just pushed some code from Dave Raggett himself that enables you to clean up the unclean HTML that Google Docs exports
  346. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> so now you can do all your HTML authoring in Google Docs!
  347. # [10:39] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@212-226-74-89-nat.elisa-mobile.fi) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  348. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> speaking of the TAG, the TAG would be seriously enriched by the presence of Dave Raggett
  349. # [10:40] <zcorpan> wait, Google Docs needs Word HTML cleanup as well? isn't that just FAIL?
  350. # [10:40] * Parts: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106119.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
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  352. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: dunno man I just push the code
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  355. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> I don't think Dave has ever been on the TAG
  356. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> there's probably a reason for that...
  357. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> Dave gets into architecture astronaut mode sometimes but at the other times he just writes a lot of good code
  358. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> in C
  359. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> and even in Javascript
  360. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> and probably in all kinds of other stuff
  361. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> and he actually likes Web browsers!
  362. # [10:44] <zcorpan> unlike TAG people?
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  364. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> I didn't say that
  365. # [10:45] <abarth> :)
  366. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> spending time with Dave is humbling and even inspiring
  367. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> as it was with DanC
  368. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> and Tim
  369. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> that's one of the really nice things about this job
  370. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> there's old school and then there's old schoo
  371. # [10:47] <annevk> to create this internet thing where you get connected with http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/vb53k/my_17_year_old_exgirlfriend_is_now_dating_my_39/ what is this I don't even know
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  373. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> abarth: hey, was reading http://abarth.github.com/sysapps/drafts/runtime.html today
  374. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> interesting stuff
  375. # [10:48] <abarth> yeah?
  376. # [10:48] <abarth> i've been working on the security model tonight
  377. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> cool
  378. # [10:48] <abarth> http://abarth.github.com/sysapps/drafts/security.html
  379. # [10:48] <abarth> its still very, very rough
  380. # [10:48] <abarth> but taking shape
  381. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> I don't have any feedback but it's great to have those to get a more concrete idea of where you're going with this stuff
  382. # [10:49] * MikeSmith looks at updated security draft
  383. # [10:50] <abarth> i'm hopeful the charter discussion will be over soon so we can start with the technical work
  384. # [10:51] <annevk> hsivonen: you're advising people to go from Nokia to RIM? :)
  385. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> abarth: charter discussion always painful
  386. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> abarth: but seems like after the survey, you all are converging on some agreement about what should be in the phase 1 stuff
  387. # [10:52] <hsivonen> annevk: not advising. I just find it noteworthy that RIM, HP and Canonical are all hiring Qt people right now
  388. # [10:52] <annevk> fair enough
  389. # [10:52] <abarth> MikeSmith: yeah, fingers crossed
  390. # [10:52] <annevk> I guess they want out of Android and Qt is most viable platform?
  391. # [10:52] <annevk> the*
  392. # [10:53] <smaug____> hsivonen: interesting
  393. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: i'm pretty sure that reddit post is from one of my cousins in Iowa or Nebraska
  394. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> annevk: if you're waiting on me for anything, please remind me. I just today plowed through 1800 or so messages in my inbox, and have 300 or something left
  395. # [10:55] <annevk> MikeSmith: I don't think there's anything there from me
  396. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> OK
  397. # [10:55] <annevk> MikeSmith: I had some questions on URLs, but they're more or less resolved now
  398. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> OK
  399. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> I still need to figure out how I muffed up the backrefs in the URL draft
  400. # [10:56] <annevk> just need to find some time to do the work without getting distracted by useless Fullscreen / CORS discussions
  401. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw, any estimate on when we might do the LCWD for Web Notifications?
  402. # [10:56] <annevk> ah, I'll work on that instead
  403. # [10:56] <annevk> MikeSmith: lets publish it next week
  404. # [10:57] * MikeSmith reminds himself that PLH needs to get us a charter extension
  405. # [10:57] <annevk> my vacation starts next week, but I can do that
  406. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK thanks
  407. # [10:57] * Quits: abarth (~abarth@2002:ada4:80d1:0:a130:f9ad:9069:5da8) (Quit: abarth)
  408. # [10:57] <annevk> two month vacation time and I'm not really sure what I'm gonna do with it all so I guess I'll end up working a bit at least
  409. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> oh
  410. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> you could come to Tokyo
  411. # [10:58] <annevk> yeah I want to, but unfortunately the plans I do have kind of make that impossible :(
  412. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> it's not unbearably humid yet, but it should be by the time you'd get here
  413. # [10:59] <annevk> I don't really have a stretch of two-three weeks with nothing to do where I could come to Tokyo
  414. # [11:00] <annevk> I would have otherwise
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  417. # [11:04] <annevk> is
  418. # [11:04] <annevk> "The Web Notifications WG is planning to move Web Notifications to W3C Last Call meaning we don't intend to change it. But we might have missed something and would therefore appreciate your review of http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/notifications/raw-file/tip/Overview.html and any comments you might have at public-web-notification@w3.org."
  419. # [11:04] <annevk> relatively okay English?
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  421. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> annevk: looks great to me
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  427. # [11:11] <Ms2ger> annevk, sounds like good Dutch to me ;)
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  431. # [11:12] <annevk> Ms2ger: je ne compris pas
  432. # [11:12] <kennyluck> doesn't sound like normal annevk-ish :p
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  435. # [11:14] <Ms2ger> Oh hey
  436. # [11:14] <Ms2ger> First bug report about Attr.firstChild
  437. # [11:16] <annevk> kennyluck: hopefully it does not sound too much like an actual Chair either
  438. # [11:17] <annevk> MikeSmith: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-notification/2012Jun/0028.html means we get past the pubteam right?
  439. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> yeah
  440. # [11:20] <annevk> thanks for the reminder
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  442. # [11:20] <annevk> I keep forgetting about notifications, I planned to do this Monday :)
  443. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> heh
  444. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> lot of good stuff going on
  445. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> hey we are likely to get the Encoding spec into i18n WG
  446. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> talkd with Richard and PLH about it yesterday
  447. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> Richard needs to write a new draft charter
  448. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> then we go from there
  449. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> I think he'll have it drafted next week
  450. # [11:24] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p5B326462.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  451. # [11:25] <Ms2ger> Yay, charters
  452. # [11:25] * Quits: silverroots (~silverroo@144.187.148.25) (Remote host closed the connection)
  453. # [11:26] <annevk> MikeSmith: oh interesting
  454. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> annevk: ok, I also just now updated the old cvs link on http://www.w3.org/2010/web-notifications/
  455. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> per dude's mail
  456. # [11:28] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@2a01:e35:2e8d:b5f0:ea9d:87ff:fe22:e221)
  457. # [11:28] <annevk> cool
  458. # [11:28] <annevk> should maybe create a wiki page for the use cases and such that were originally in the spec
  459. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> I'm happy for somebody to do that :)
  460. # [11:29] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
  461. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> right now I only got 14 minutes battery left and trying to get github mirroring thing set up for matjas JS tests
  462. # [11:30] <annevk> I like how instead of the title wrapping it just gives you dots at the end on our home page
  463. # [11:30] <annevk> text-overflow:ellipsis ftw
  464. # [11:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: no worries, I can handle that
  465. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> cool
  466. # [11:33] <Ms2ger> annevk, man, more vacationing? ;)
  467. # [11:33] <annevk> Ms2ger: well I skipped part of university so I have some catching up to do
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  472. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> matjas or Ms2ger : please push something to the web-ecmscript dvcs.w3.org repo and lemme know what happens
  473. # [11:40] <Ms2ger> Do you have something to test? :)
  474. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> within the next 3 minuts, preferable
  475. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: nope
  476. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> add a README maybe?
  477. # [11:40] * Ms2ger looks
  478. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> 1 minute... I will be back on in 90 minutes or so and will check back then
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  483. # [11:49] <matjas> MikeSmith (if you read the logs): this happens http://pastie.org/pastes/4119544/text
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  489. # [11:59] <matjas> any feedback so far on http://mathias.html5.org/specs/web-ecmascript/? I copied the Web ECMAScript wiki page, made some corrections, and added some more things
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  493. # [12:02] <[tm]> ?
  494. # [12:03] <jgraham> matjas: You incorrectly use RFC2119 language in examples
  495. # [12:03] <jgraham> e.g. "For example, var var; must throw a SyntaxError, but e.g. var v\u0061r; should work — even though strictly speaking, the ECMAScript spec disallows it."
  496. # [12:03] <matjas> s/must/should/, then?
  497. # [12:03] <jgraham> Just makes them statements of fact
  498. # [12:03] <matjas> k
  499. # [12:03] <jgraham> i.e. don't use must.should.etc. at all
  500. # [12:04] * Quits: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.189.31) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  501. # [12:04] <matjas> jgraham: as you’re the one who wrote those algorithms, am I doing `EscapeAttributeValue` (and others) right?
  502. # [12:05] <matjas> (I noticed WebKit escapes single quotes too, although that seems unnecessary)
  503. # [12:06] * Joins: graememcc (~chatzilla@host86-150-159-225.range86-150.btcentralplus.com)
  504. # [12:07] <jgraham> I think personally I would make those algorithms have immutable variables
  505. # [12:07] <jgraham> And phrase it like:
  506. # [12:08] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@209.20.29.228) (Remote host closed the connection)
  507. # [12:09] <jgraham> Let /escaped/ be /value/ with each U+0022 QUOTATION MARK characters replaced by the string "&quot;"
  508. # [12:09] <jgraham> Return /escaped/
  509. # [12:09] <jgraham> Or something
  510. # [12:09] <jgraham> But I don't think that is perfect either
  511. # [12:10] <matjas> what else is needed to make it perfect?
  512. # [12:10] <jgraham> I'm not sure
  513. # [12:10] <jgraham> If you were really pedantic, you could make "replaced by" explicit
  514. # [12:11] <jgraham> i.e. loop through the string and examine each character
  515. # [12:11] <matjas> wow
  516. # [12:11] <zcorpan> i thought they shouldn't do any escaping
  517. # [12:11] <jgraham> see what HTML does for similar things
  518. # [12:12] <matjas> jgraham: I did exactly that before writing that up
  519. # [12:12] <jgraham> Maybe I am giving you bad advice then :)
  520. # [12:13] <zcorpan> matjas: opera and firefox don't escape the value. have you tested ie?
  521. # [12:14] <matjas> zcorpan: yeah but shouldn’t they? (haven’t tested IE)
  522. # [12:14] <zcorpan> matjas: see /topic
  523. # [12:15] <matjas> damn
  524. # [12:15] <zcorpan> unless there's a security problem or something, i think we should go with the majority
  525. # [12:18] <zcorpan> matjas: the comment syntax section is pretty vague, and should probably hook in to ES in some way
  526. # [12:19] <matjas> i have some TODOs as HTML comments
  527. # [12:19] <jgraham> Well of course it could be a security problem if someone was doing something dumb
  528. # [12:20] <matjas> IE10 doesn’t escape " and uppercases EVERYTHING
  529. # [12:21] <matjas> same in older IEs
  530. # [12:21] * Joins: acies (acies@nitro.plus.io)
  531. # [12:22] <matjas> would it break backcompat if newer browsers started escaping `"`? are there legitimate scripts out there (i.e. no crazy XSS hacks) that rely on the non-escaped behavior?
  532. # [12:22] <Ms2ger> Probably
  533. # [12:23] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@212-226-74-89-nat.elisa-mobile.fi)
  534. # [12:23] <matjas> hard to imagine, and it doesn’t seem to be a problem for WebKit
  535. # [12:24] <matjas> …but that’s not how this thing works, is it.
  536. # [12:24] <smaug____> annevk: so per notification spec tag isn't bound to an origin?
  537. # [12:24] <smaug____> I think it should be
  538. # [12:28] <zcorpan> matjas: i tried grepping in web200904 but it's hard to tell whether ysf=ysf.fontcolor(ac); has ac already-escaped or not
  539. # [12:28] <matjas> any results for ''.link('"') or similar?
  540. # [12:28] <zcorpan> i included link at first but it included so much jQuery and other link()s that it was mostly noise
  541. # [12:30] <zcorpan> but there's some
  542. # [12:30] <zcorpan> document.write(title.big().bold().link(base + link));
  543. # [12:30] <zcorpan> document.write("View Our Open Positions".link(base));
  544. # [12:30] <zcorpan> <p>For more information please contact <script>document.write(String.fromCharCode(-186-0x60+0x15b,0144,-0324+0501,0373-0222,0156,-0xe2+0x14b,0xba-0107,-0xce+0502,0x3d+065,-47+0220,-83-155+0x162,0157,-95-0256+0577).link(String.fromCharCode(0155,0xd3-0x72,0151,-166+0x112,0x74,56+0xb4-125,072,0x6c,-0x49+0262,040-52+135,0141,0100,-045+0206,0234-40,-0x90+0340+36,0x6f,0162,0151+0x5,-0xf3-0265+0x20d,-0246+255+32,66+49,0x73+0345
  545. # [12:30] <zcorpan> -0xf2+0377,0156,173-0110,105,0x90-213+0263,230+167-298,0x8d+150-0xf5,0x6c-0x9,245-0x86,109)));</script>.</p>
  546. # [12:31] <matjas> holy…
  547. # [12:32] <zcorpan> seems there was less noise in web200904 compared to the newer data set with "top 10,000 sites"
  548. # [12:32] <matjas> hah, even that one didn’t contain " in the attribute value: <a href="mailto:lisa@attorneysneinc.com">Administrator</a>
  549. # [12:33] <matjas> why would anyone expect and *rely on* these functions returning invalid HTML in case the value includes `"`?
  550. # [12:34] <zcorpan> the interesting question isn't "why"
  551. # [12:35] <zcorpan> $ grep -aPh "\.(anchor|fontcolor|fontsize|link)\s*\(\s*'[^']*\"" web200904 produced no results
  552. # [12:35] <hsivonen> annevk, smaug____: RIM and Canonical hiring Qt folks is interesting but not *surprising* but HP hiring Qt folks or *anyone* for the division formerly known as Palm is suprising
  553. # [12:37] <smaug____> hsivonen: RIM hiring anyone is surprising
  554. # [12:38] <matjas> the only reason anyone would rely on this (that I can think of) is XSS
  555. # [12:38] <hsivonen> smaug____: well, RIM is known to try to get itself back together by doing Qt stuff
  556. # [12:38] <matjas> ''.link('"><script>alert("h4x")</script>'); // "<a href=""><script>alert("h4x")</script>"></a>"
  557. # [12:39] <hsivonen> smaug____: meanwhile, it seems the old Java folks from RIM are migrating to Android-related jobs
  558. # [12:39] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
  559. # [12:40] <hsivonen> I wonder how easy it is for HP or RIM to get Norwegian or Finnish ex-Nokia people to relocate to Ontario or California, when the longevity of RIM and the division formerly known as Palm doesn't look so good
  560. # [12:41] <hsivonen> of the companies hiring Qt folks, Canonical has the advantage that they don't require relocation
  561. # [12:41] * hsivonen is quite happy not to be an ex-Nokia person forced to look for a new job
  562. # [12:42] <matjas> data:text/html,<script>document.write(''.link('"><script>alert("h4x")<\/script>'));</script> XSS vector for Opera, Firefox and IE
  563. # [12:42] <annevk> smaug____: agreed
  564. # [12:43] <annevk> matjas: jgraham: saying "replaced by" is fine
  565. # [12:44] <matjas> yay
  566. # [12:45] <annevk> matjas: e.g. Return the result of replacing all occurrences of X in Y by Z
  567. # [12:45] <zcorpan> matjas: i can't find any legitimate uses of " in web200904, and since it's a potential xss problem, it seems OK to require escaping the "
  568. # [12:45] <zcorpan> (or any uses at all)
  569. # [12:45] <matjas> zcorpan: ok, I’ll add a note and an HTML comment linking back to these logs
  570. # [12:50] <matjas> thanks for grepping :)
  571. # [12:51] <annevk> matjas: you should require an explicit HTML escape, not allow all of them
  572. # [12:51] <annevk> matjas: I recommend requiring &quot; as HTML uses that too
  573. # [12:51] <jgraham> (that was the main point I was trying to make with my previous comment, but it got lsot a bit under how to phrase it)
  574. # [12:52] <annevk> matjas: see e.g. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#escapingString
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  576. # [12:53] <annevk> matjas: looks cool btw
  577. # [12:53] <annevk> matjas: note that for Date there's a whole lot more to define; basically new Date(stuff) is not defined for a lot of date formats
  578. # [12:54] <matjas> annevk: thanks, will do
  579. # [12:54] <zcorpan> matjas: nice work
  580. # [12:54] <matjas> oh btw i specced String#substr, in case anyone wants to review that
  581. # [12:54] <zcorpan> isn't substr in ES proper?
  582. # [12:55] <matjas> zcorpan: no
  583. # [12:55] <matjas> i wasn’t sure if min() and max() need to be defined as abstract operations as well
  584. # [12:55] <zcorpan> http://es5.github.com/#B.2.3
  585. # [12:55] <matjas> daaaamn
  586. # [12:56] <zcorpan> seems that whole section is non-normative though
  587. # [12:56] <zcorpan> which is bogus
  588. # [12:58] <zcorpan> but you could reference Annex B and say it must be implemented, or some such
  589. # [12:59] <annevk> "This non-normative annex suggests uniform semantics for such properties without making the properties or their semantics part of this standard." lol
  590. # [13:01] <hsivonen> what's the deal with TC39 refusing to stardardize stuff that needs to be implemented?
  591. # [13:01] <hsivonen> is the necessity of implementation in doubt?
  592. # [13:02] <hsivonen> or do they want non-browser impls without this stuff to be "conforming"?
  593. # [13:02] <annevk> brendan always tell me they have a different approach to standardization and he thinks it is good to have standards bodies compete on strategy
  594. # [13:02] <annevk> I don't necessarily disagree, but I do disagree with the strategy :)
  595. # [13:03] <matjas> they’re working on explicitly forbidding Web ECMAScript identifiers in the spec, too: https://bugs.ecmascript.org/show_bug.cgi?id=277
  596. # [13:03] * Joins: eonl (~laptop@host86-182-193-56.range86-182.btcentralplus.com)
  597. # [13:04] <matjas> (or allowing it, depending on the outcome of their research)
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  602. # [13:11] <hsivonen> Use case for CSS: (unless you are prone to seizures or are not allowed to make noise at your location), go to http://plone.org/ and type "batman " into the search field
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  605. # [13:13] <annevk> matjas: speccing __proto__ sounds cool
  606. # [13:13] <annevk> matjas: and if they actually update the browsers too, then it's cool
  607. # [13:13] <matjas> TIL it’s actually happening in ES6!
  608. # [13:13] <annevk> matjas: but not having the spec match browsers is uncool
  609. # [13:13] <annevk> matjas: yeah, that's what I meant :)
  610. # [13:14] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, heh
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  617. # [13:33] <gsnedders> hsivonen: TC39 basically agreed to public something along the lines of Web ECMAScript (whether as an appendix or what is another question). Some things are likely to make it into the spec, some aren't.
  618. # [13:34] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Library stuff (apart from stuff like Sting.prototype.bold, etc., which is obviously very web-specific) is likely to get into the main spec, esp. if it can't legally be implemented as host objects.
  619. # [13:35] <gsnedders> annevk: Annex B is becoming, "optional, but if you implement an extention with this name, required"
  620. # [13:37] * jgraham wonders if SVG scripts are getting the force-async flag
  621. # [13:37] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106192.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
  622. # [13:38] <annevk> gsnedders: sounds so very political
  623. # [13:44] * jgraham gets a resounding "maybe"
  624. # [13:46] <jgraham> hsivonen: Know anything about the differences bwtween SVG script and HTML script (in gecko?)
  625. # [13:46] * Quits: Guest40502 (~jondong@123.126.22.58) (Remote host closed the connection)
  626. # [13:46] <hsivonen> jgraham: we specifically pretend that async and defer attributes don't exist for SVG scripts, since the SVG WG hasn't blessed them
  627. # [13:47] <Ms2ger> If anybody does, he does :)
  628. # [13:47] <hsivonen> which is kinda silly
  629. # [13:47] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  630. # [13:47] <gsnedders> annevk: There's not really that much in way of politics mostly.
  631. # [13:48] <gsnedders> At least on the public list.
  632. # [13:48] * gsnedders has never been on the private one
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  635. # [13:48] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah, it is. So you also don't have a force-async flag?
  636. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> annevk: I agree with brendan about it being good to have standards bodies compete on strategy. So let's make an actual separate standard, based on the EcmaScript spec, but in line with what browsers actually implement, with the Web EcmaScript parts and other things that should be normative being normative. And call it the JavaScript Standard.
  637. # [13:50] <jgraham> Standards bodies *usually* only compete for new specs, so the idea of better living through competition is rather weak
  638. # [13:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: matjas: I'm totally in favor of calling it "JavaScript"
  639. # [13:50] <jgraham> Obviously HTML is an exception, but the W3C managed to fuck that up so bad it defies belief
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  641. # [13:51] <hsivonen> jgraham: the force-async flag only exists for HTML scripts
  642. # [13:53] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'd be OK with adding the async and defer attributes and the force-async flag to SVG scripts with the exact same semantics as with HTML scripts
  643. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> matjas or Ms2ger : OK please try again a push to the web-ecmascript repo
  644. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> I had forgotten to set something but I think I have it right now
  645. # [13:55] <matjas> MikeSmith:
  646. # [13:55] <matjas> remote: abort: Permission denied: /var/hg/repos/web-ecmascript/.git/objects/40
  647. # [13:55] <matjas> remote: fatal: 'github' does not appear to be a git repository
  648. # [13:55] <matjas> remote: fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly
  649. # [13:55] <matjas> remote: warning: changegroup.github hook exited with status 128
  650. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> oops
  651. # [13:55] <jgraham> It seems like a good idea to me, but it would be running ahead of the spec a bit. I can't imagine the SVG2 process is going to be very fast
  652. # [13:56] <heycam> hsivonen, jgraham, we want script to have the same features in SVG as it does in HTML
  653. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> matjas: OK, just now fixed that. please try again
  654. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> matjas: oh, hang on
  655. # [13:56] <heycam> maybe not a fast process, but we could at least get that in the spec without too much work
  656. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> I have to set the perms
  657. # [13:57] <matjas> MikeSmith:
  658. # [13:57] <matjas> remote: exporting hg objects to git
  659. # [13:57] <matjas> remote: abort: Permission denied: /var/hg/repos/web-ecmascript/.git/objects/40
  660. # [13:57] <matjas> remote: ERROR: Permission to w3c/web-ecmascript.git denied to w3c-bots.
  661. # [13:57] <matjas> remote: fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly
  662. # [13:57] <matjas> ahh sorry
  663. # [13:57] <jgraham> heycam: I want the spec to be a living standard, so that this kind of update doesn't need to wait on multi-year cycles ;)
  664. # [13:57] <heycam> well it will be in th ED, and that spec will be publicly visible
  665. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> matjas: OK fixed the perms now, ready to be tried again
  666. # [13:57] <jgraham> But good to know that there is enthusiasm for the idea
  667. # [13:58] <Ms2ger> Oh hey, it's heycam
  668. # [13:58] <matjas> MikeSmith: same error
  669. # [13:58] <matjas> remote: exporting hg objects to git
  670. # [13:58] <matjas> remote: ERROR: Permission to w3c/web-ecmascript.git denied to w3c-bots.
  671. # [13:58] <matjas> remote: fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly
  672. # [13:58] <matjas> remote: warning: changegroup.github hook exited with status 128
  673. # [13:58] <heycam> hi Ms2ger
  674. # [13:58] <annevk> smaug____: yt?
  675. # [13:58] <heycam> we're rarely on at the same time these days
  676. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> matjas: OK, will fix that now
  677. # [13:58] <annevk> smaug____: would you implement the origin stuff by basically storing the origin on the Notification object?
  678. # [13:58] <annevk> smaug____: would that be logical?
  679. # [13:59] <matjas> http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html (from /topic) seems to 404
  680. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> matjas: OK, ready for another ry
  681. # [13:59] <annevk> matjas: 403 here
  682. # [13:59] <matjas> it worked!
  683. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> sweet
  684. # [14:00] <matjas> annevk: whoops, yeah 403
  685. # [14:00] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  686. # [14:00] <jgraham> matjas: Yeah, it worked the other day for me
  687. # [14:00] <annevk> gavin: gavin_: your irc/whatwg.html 403's...
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  689. # [14:01] <jgraham> matjas: (since you were obviously wondering, no you haven't overtaken annevk on the loser board yet)
  690. # [14:01] <matjas> hah!
  691. # [14:04] <hsivonen> (aside: since SVG scripts can nest, supporting async and defer for them will complicate the HTML parser a bit)
  692. # [14:04] <hsivonen> oh, also: at one point, src="" (empty string value) on HTML and xlink:href="" on SVG had different behavior
  693. # [14:04] <hsivonen> let's see if that's still the case...
  694. # [14:05] <jgraham> Sigh, I didn't mean to end up testing this stuff today
  695. # [14:06] <jgraham> I only meant to do document.write in SVG, and then realised there was a lot more scope
  696. # [14:07] <jgraham> (what is the problem with async and defer in SVG? Does it also apply to XHTML?)
  697. # [14:08] <hsivonen> Hixie's live DOM viewer seems broken
  698. # [14:08] <hsivonen> (or Gecko is very broken)
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  701. # [14:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: looks like both Firefox and Opera have a bug here, but different bugs. WebKit works correctly: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=1613
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  703. # [14:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: but it looks like Firefox now gives the same treatment to empty src in HTML and empty xlink:href in SVG
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  705. # [14:12] <jgraham> Nice bugs you have there
  706. # [14:12] <jgraham> s/have/found/
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  712. # [14:23] <matjas> how can I tell Anolis to use data/references.json? I’m getting “SyntaxError: Specification not found: ECMASCRIPT” although there’s an entry for it
  713. # [14:23] <matjas> /spam gsnedders Ms2ger jgraham
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  715. # [14:24] <Ms2ger> Are you sure? :)
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  718. # [14:24] <matjas> Ms2ger: what am I missing?
  719. # [14:25] * Ms2ger looks
  720. # [14:25] <matjas> is there a command-line flag I need to pass to `anolis` explicitly or smth?
  721. # [14:26] <Ms2ger> So
  722. # [14:26] <Ms2ger> references.json is for the References section
  723. # [14:26] * abstractj|coffee is now known as abstractj
  724. # [14:27] <Ms2ger> That error comes from the cross-references, I think
  725. # [14:27] <matjas> I expect <span data-anolis-spec=ECMASCRIPT>…</span> to create a new entry in the References section, is that correct?
  726. # [14:27] <Ms2ger> No
  727. # [14:27] * Ms2ger looks for the incantation
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  729. # [14:28] <Ms2ger> <span data-anolis-ref class=informative>DOM2TR</span>
  730. # [14:28] <matjas> Ms2ger: Thanks!
  731. # [14:28] <Ms2ger> Np
  732. # [14:28] <Ms2ger> I really really should write more documentation :)
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  734. # [14:29] <matjas> yes please, for n00bs like me :(
  735. # [14:29] <matjas> gsnedders’s example files are very minimal
  736. # [14:33] <zcorpan> matjas: data-anolis-spec= is for cross-spec cross-references
  737. # [14:33] <zcorpan> matjas: e.g. if you want a link directly to ES's ToString
  738. # [14:33] <annevk> Ms2ger: add it to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Howto_spec so we get all specs aligned
  739. # [14:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: also, maybe we should start supporting <span data-spec= and <span data-ref>
  740. # [14:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: because why type -anolis- when we really don't have to
  741. # [14:34] <Ms2ger> Or hey, <span spec> :)
  742. # [14:34] <zcorpan> <spec>!
  743. # [14:34] <Ms2ger> <s>
  744. # [14:34] <annevk> yeah if we strip it out anyway
  745. # [14:34] <Ms2ger> Oh
  746. # [14:35] <matjas> zcorpan: what should that look like then? <span data-anolis-spec=ecmascript-tostring>…</span> and then edit some file in the data/ folder?
  747. # [14:35] <annevk> matjas: yes
  748. # [14:35] <annevk> not sure we have one for ecmascript yet
  749. # [14:35] <Ms2ger> We don't
  750. # [14:35] <annevk> matjas: should look like the data/xref files
  751. # [14:36] <matjas> cool, thanks all
  752. # [14:36] <Ms2ger> And add a line to data/specs.json
  753. # [14:36] <zcorpan> except it'd be <span data-anolis-spec=ecmascript title=tostring>…</span> i think
  754. # [14:36] <Ms2ger> Right
  755. # [14:36] <zcorpan> or <span data-anolis-spec=ecmascript>ToString</span>
  756. # [14:36] <Ms2ger> ^
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  758. # [14:37] <annevk> matjas: ^
  759. # [14:38] <matjas> roger that
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  762. # [14:40] <Ms2ger> matjas, oh, and Mozilla is always hiring... ;)
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  775. # [15:04] <annevk> matjas: http://opera.jobs/
  776. # [15:04] <annevk> Ms2ger: ^
  777. # [15:04] <Ms2ger> annevk, boo :)
  778. # [15:04] <annevk> Ms2ger: also, how can you offer first
  779. # [15:04] <annevk> Ms2ger: Mozilla is sloppy seconds, Opera offers first
  780. # [15:04] <matjas> I like where this is going
  781. # [15:05] <Ms2ger> "Microsoft Wins Congressional Backing For Do-Not-Track Default In IE10"
  782. # [15:10] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: URL?
  783. # [15:11] <hsivonen> Why doesn't the Congress just legislate the default without having to send any bytes then?
  784. # [15:11] <Ms2ger> politics.slashdot.org/story/12/06/20/1231225/microsoft-wins-congressional-backing-for-do-not-track-default-in-ie10
  785. # [15:12] <hsivonen> http:// adding not working when copying, eh?
  786. # [15:12] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: but thanks
  787. # [15:12] <Ms2ger> Heh
  788. # [15:12] <Ms2ger> I blame Firefox
  789. # [15:12] <Ms2ger> Or myself, this is a pretty old build
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  805. # [15:33] <annevk> matjas: if you <dfn title=ToHTMLTag>...</dfn> you can do <code title=toHTMLTag>... later on and it will hyperlink them together
  806. # [15:33] <annevk> matjas: in addition the fragment identifier will be #tohtmltag rather than the longish string it is now
  807. # [15:33] <matjas> annevk: awesome!
  808. # [15:33] <matjas> i was wondering about that
  809. # [15:34] <annevk> matjas: basically it either stringifies the contents of a <dfn> but you can override that by specifying a title=""
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  813. # [15:36] <zcorpan> <dfn title=ToHTMLTag>...</dfn> <code>ToHTMLTag</code> also works
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  816. # [15:42] <annevk> right
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  822. # [15:47] <jacobrask> What is supposed to happen when a browser encounters pattern=""?
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  824. # [15:51] <zcorpan> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-input-element-attributes.html#compiled-pattern-regular-expression
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  827. # [15:51] <annevk> jacobrask: anything in particular you are wondering about?
  828. # [15:52] <jacobrask> yes, I'm reading that, so does an empty string mean the same thing as "has no such attribute"?
  829. # [15:52] <zcorpan> ah. no, the attribute is still present even if the value is the empty string
  830. # [15:53] <jacobrask> annevk: Well we could take it in #staff ;) but Opera seems to fail any value for pattern="" while Chrome accepts any value
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  832. # [15:54] <zcorpan> afaict from the spec it should compile, so only the empty string would be valid for the field
  833. # [15:54] <jacobrask> right, Opera accepts the empty string
  834. # [15:54] <zcorpan> bug in chrome then
  835. # [15:55] <annevk> sitecompat?
  836. # [15:55] <jacobrask> yep. Firefox is same as Opera
  837. # [15:55] <jacobrask> nope, a site I'm working on, wondered where/if I should report a bug..
  838. # [15:56] <annevk> jacobrask: https://bugs.webkit.org/ it is
  839. # [15:56] <odinho> jgraham: So Paul Irish imported the docs from testharness.js to readme.md. -- Don't really like to have to update docs two places. https://github.com/paulirish/testharness.js/commit/7bdd2d76a5afeb2d80b5cd48ce4c403c37f47c18
  840. # [15:57] <odinho> paul_irish: Were you thinking about pushing that to mercurial, or is it mostly to have a github.com-page that's easy to link to etc?
  841. # [15:57] <zcorpan> <label for="i51">Ваше имя:</label><input type="text" maxlength="50" name="answer_5" id="i51" pattern="string" notice="Проверьте, пожалуйста, ответили ли Вы на все вопросы анкеты">
  842. # [15:57] <zcorpan> <label for="i52">Телефон:</label> <input type="text" maxlength="16" name="answer_6" id="i52" pattern="string" notice="Проверьте, пожалуйста, ответили ли Вы на все вопросы анкеты">
  843. # [15:58] <odinho> jacobrask: It has been proposed to rename this channel to #opera :P
  844. # [15:59] <jacobrask> :)
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  847. # [16:01] * zcorpan finds no empty-value pattern attributes in his data
  848. # [16:02] <jacobrask> I create input elements and set some attributes conditionally
  849. # [16:03] <jacobrask> So really I expected/hoped for pattern="" to behave as in WebKit
  850. # [16:04] <jgraham> odinho: Agreed, I think we need to reformat the inline docs in markdown or so and have a script that can automatically extract them on push
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  852. # [16:04] <jgraham> I also think we need w3c-test.org to become a pretty website with all the info about how to write tests for W3C
  853. # [16:05] <odinho> jgraham: Yeah. :D'
  854. # [16:05] <odinho> jgraham: BTW, I deleted my testharness.js-repo that was forked from you, to make one forked from w3c instead, -- but now it won't let me do that. -- I guess GitHub has some old reference lying around crashing it.
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  858. # [16:07] <jgraham> Yeah, seems to be a problem with the forking system
  859. # [16:07] <odinho> jgraham: Oh, tobie did the same as paul_irish :] Common theme that.
  860. # [16:07] <jgraham> (that it is hard to change the upstream)
  861. # [16:08] <odinho> The "docs" on stackoverflow said delete + do it again would be a strategy. Guess it failed :P
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  874. # [16:18] <MikeSmith> hahaha Opera guys trying to do an "Occupy whatwg"
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  876. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> speaking of charters I just finished writing a draft of a new charter for the HTML WG
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  878. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> which is scheduled to be unleashed on the world for review tomorrow
  879. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> good times ahead
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  883. # [16:28] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yeah, W3C team are the 1%, with their private mailing lists and close connections that they use to oppress the masses
  884. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> jgraham: we prefer the term "illuminati"
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  886. # [16:29] <MikeSmith> and we're not oppressing the masses, we're cleverly manipulating and exploiting them
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  901. # [16:43] <matjas> jgraham, odinho, paul_irish: that’s why you need to have the docs in one place, being the source code, and use a tool that automatically generates the Markdown-formatted docs for you
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  903. # [16:44] <odinho> matjas: We have it one place now, - in the testharness.js-file.
  904. # [16:44] <matjas> odinho: yeah, but a “readable” version would be useful, like the one paul_irish created manually
  905. # [16:45] <odinho> matjas: Yeah, so we should get some commit-hook to make stuff like that.
  906. # [16:45] <matjas> a README.md file that is autogenerated from source, and visible in the GitHub repo, would be perfect
  907. # [16:45] <matjas> *cough* http://jonathan.tang.name/code/pyjsdoc *cough*
  908. # [16:45] <odinho> matjas: Yea. Although I like jgraham's proposal of making w3c-test.org a really nice page better. But they don't exclude eachother.
  909. # [16:46] <matjas> exactly
  910. # [16:46] <odinho> http://jonathan.tang.name/files/pyjsdoc/apidocs/ << kinda empty though ;-)
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  912. # [16:49] <matjas> I personally use docdown (PHP; https://github.com/jdalton/docdown) but Ms2ger seemed to prefer Python
  913. # [16:49] <odinho> ...and odinho and jgraham and possibly more ;-)
  914. # [16:50] <odinho> So agree with Ms2ger there, -- but not in dvcs choice :-)
  915. # [16:50] <Ms2ger> YOU'RE WRONG
  916. # [16:50] <Ms2ger> :)
  917. # [16:50] <odinho> ^^
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  920. # [16:52] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, does the new HTMLWG charter give you unlimited power to override any decisions? :)
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  923. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: no, but it does introduce a new role
  924. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> along with editor, chair, team contact
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  926. # [16:54] <Ms2ger> Werewolf?
  927. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> Enforcer
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  930. # [16:56] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: now you might as well just leak the whole thing
  931. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> wanted to call it Punisher but got overruled
  932. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> heh
  933. # [16:57] <Ms2ger> Oh, you mean it wasn't you who put it on wikileaks?
  934. # [16:57] * boaz is now known as boaz|away
  935. # [16:57] <MikeSmith> the butler did it
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  938. # [16:58] <MikeSmith> or rather I should say my gentleman's gentleman
  939. # [16:58] <Ms2ger> Said the actress to the pope
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  942. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> anyway, the clock will soon strike midnight here and I figure I have done my quota of damage for today, so I shall drop from my PC soon
  943. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> if anybody needs anything, ping me at [tm]
  944. # [17:01] <Ms2ger> Good night, then :)
  945. # [17:01] * boaz|away is now known as boaz
  946. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> cheers
  947. # [17:02] <annevk> nn MikeSmith
  948. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> g'night
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  953. # [17:08] <annevk> saying Last Call is imminent is a good way to get comments
  954. # [17:09] <annevk> maybe we should say "Last Call is imminent" about a "random" chosen spec each week (filtering duplicates)
  955. # [17:09] * Quits: Kasey (~kkellydes@75.60.206.57) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  956. # [17:10] <Ms2ger> DOM4? :)
  957. # [17:10] * Ms2ger checks when the charter claims DOM4 will be a rec
  958. # [17:10] <annevk> sh
  959. # [17:10] <AryehGregor> "immediately before the charter expires"
  960. # [17:10] * Joins: Kasey (~kkellydes@75.60.206.57)
  961. # [17:10] <annevk> if they find someone to maintain a branch of DOM4 while the rest of us edit DOM I guess that works
  962. # [17:10] <Ms2ger> Q1 2013
  963. # [17:11] <AryehGregor> When does the charter expire?
  964. # [17:11] <Ms2ger> 31 May 2014
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  966. # [17:11] <AryehGregor> Okay, so I guess I was wrong.
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  977. # [17:32] <gavin> annevk: looking into it
  978. # [17:32] <gavin> I think dreamhost broke something :(
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  992. # [18:09] <odinho> https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js/pull/2
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  1004. # [18:26] <odinho> https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js/pull/3
  1005. # [18:29] <Ms2ger> Can you give a less stupid example too? :)
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  1008. # [18:38] <gavin> matjas: stats fixed
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  1011. # [18:41] <odinho> Ms2ger: {toString:function(){return "hello";}} vs "hello" --- I didn't really hit this myself, it was someone rambling on an Opera channel, I just wrote the patch since I was already in the mood :P
  1012. # [18:41] <odinho> Ms2ger: Not 100% convinced it's really needed.
  1013. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> Mm
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  1016. # [18:46] <Ms2ger> Commented
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  1021. # [18:51] <odinho> Ms2ger: I like it. Did it.
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  1023. # [18:53] <Ms2ger> Hmm
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  1028. # [19:03] <Ms2ger> odinho, string concatenation and ${} things together?
  1029. # [19:03] * Ms2ger isn't entirely convinced
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  1031. # [19:06] <odinho> Ms2ger: Yeah, can't do ${} because it uses format_value which brings in the "'s.
  1032. # [19:06] <odinho> ("number") 1
  1033. # [19:06] <odinho> I did that originally, but it looked ugly. :-)
  1034. # [19:07] <Ms2ger> OK
  1035. # [19:07] <Ms2ger> I was wondering if it did that
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  1052. # [19:38] <Hixie> there's still no way to change [[Class]] in JS, right?
  1053. # [19:39] <Hixie> JS being so dynamic makes it oddly hard to do certain things
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  1055. # [19:40] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|lunch
  1056. # [19:40] <Hixie> (such as in this case, walk a tree of objects and serialise it to a string in such a way that it can be reconstructed later, but in a manner where the serialiser/parser code doesn't need to know about all the possible types of objects involved and what their constructors are)
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  1058. # [19:46] <jsbell> FYI In the ES6 drafts [[Class]] goes away, replaced by [[NativeBrand]]
  1059. # [19:46] <Ms2ger> Are you introducing something else you'll call [[Class]]?
  1060. # [19:47] <jsbell> (if you = me, I'm not part of TC39 I just lurk; but not to my knowledge)
  1061. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> Maybe only the CSSWG is that silly
  1062. # [19:49] <Hixie> jsbell: either way :-)
  1063. # [19:49] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  1064. # [19:50] <Hixie> jsbell: what i really want is a reflection of the object's identity such that i can later resurrect the object
  1065. # [19:51] <Hixie> currently i have each object override a getClass() method and it returns the string which is the member of |window| that can be used as a constructor for that object
  1066. # [19:53] <Hixie> but that's pretty hacky
  1067. # [19:53] <jsbell> What's the motivation? (I care about the "structured clone" algorithm as it relates to IndexedDB)
  1068. # [19:53] <Hixie> the motivation is in a game i'm writing, how to bring back the UI widgets as they were when the user last logged out
  1069. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> Why are you writing games and not specs, sir!
  1070. # [19:54] <Hixie> to test the specs
  1071. # [19:54] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
  1072. # [19:55] <Ms2ger> Acid4: FPS?
  1073. # [19:55] <Hixie> acid tests test the browsers :-)
  1074. # [19:56] <jsbell> Doing this via the JSON API reviver functions, or separately?
  1075. # [19:56] <jsbell> reviver/replacer
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  1078. # [19:57] <Hixie> separately
  1079. # [19:57] <Hixie> it's not a single data structure i'm rebuilding, it's also all the backend network connections, etc
  1080. # [19:57] <Hixie> the whole thing is very async
  1081. # [19:59] <jsbell> Hrm. You could ask each object to serialize itself to a script fragment that reconstructs itself (and dependents), then parsing is just an eval(). ISTM that anything else will require external assumptions about the objects.
  1082. # [20:00] <Hixie> that's even more hacky :-P
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  1101. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> Doesn't Opera have unprefixed border-image?
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  1107. # [20:48] <miketaylr> Ms2ger: i think it did once upon a time, but then went back to prefixed
  1108. # [20:48] <miketaylr> not sure why
  1109. # [20:48] <Ms2ger> Huh
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  1112. # [20:51] <gsnedders> We had all of CSS Background and Borders unprefixed.
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  1115. # [20:57] <Ms2ger> Do continue
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  1117. # [21:00] <hsivonen> Opera could benefit from repainting everything after a Linux box wakes up from hibernation
  1118. # [21:00] <hsivonen> I'm seeing garbage pixels in an iframe
  1119. # [21:00] <hsivonen> I'm not posting a screenshot, since I don't know what private data that memory range contains
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  1123. # [21:08] <hsivonen> Kinda weird that WAI is starting work on intentional events. http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/
  1124. # [21:08] <hsivonen> (as opposed to WebApps WG)
  1125. # [21:11] <Hixie> there's no good way to test if an element is an HTML <section> element other than checking both nodeName/localName/tagName and the namespace or instanceof HTMLElement, right?
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  1127. # [21:12] <hsivonen> sounds about right
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  1129. # [21:13] <Ms2ger> QI to nsIContent and do ->IsHTML(nsGkAtoms::section)
  1130. # [21:13] <hsivonen> Gnome Memes seems to be enjoying the new Angry Linus meme
  1131. # [21:13] <Hixie> yeah i suppose we could add isHTML(tagName), isSVG(tagName), and isMathML(tagName) to Element
  1132. # [21:13] <Hixie> Ms2ger: i'll let you and anne ponder whether it's worth it :-)
  1133. # [21:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: Gecko has that internally
  1134. # [21:14] <Ms2ger> Wontfix
  1135. # [21:14] <Ms2ger> ;)
  1136. # [21:14] <hsivonen> yeah, seems like WONTFIX material for the Web
  1137. # [21:14] * JohnAlbin is now known as JohnAlbin_zzzzzz
  1138. # [21:14] <hsivonen> authors won't dare to use pure sugar like that
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  1140. # [21:14] <Hixie> i would :-P
  1141. # [21:14] <hsivonen> will worry about it not working in IE9 for the next 20 years
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  1143. # [21:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: you aren't under normal compat constraints or under normal unfamiliarity with the platform details constraints
  1144. # [21:15] <Hixie> it is true
  1145. # [21:15] <Ms2ger> In other words, you are abnormal :)
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  1154. # [21:22] <dbaron> Are the contents of the <video> element supposed to be fallback content?
  1155. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> No
  1156. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> Well, fallback for browsers that don't implement <video>
  1157. # [21:23] <dbaron> ok
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  1165. # [21:51] <Ms2ger> annevk, you're wrong :)
  1166. # [21:54] <annevk> Ms2ger: that would be nice, because all my stuff is in Mercurial
  1167. # [21:54] <annevk> Ms2ger: but I think I'm right
  1168. # [21:55] <paul_irish> odinho jgraham: Yeah mostly just finished the markdown port as a POC; just to see how good it'd look. I agree next step is to write a script to output from script to readme. ++ on pyjsdoc or docdown
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  1170. # [22:05] <Ms2ger> http://w3c-test.org/framework/suite/web-storage-dev/ says "NOTICE: Undefined offset: 1"
  1171. # [22:05] <Ms2ger> [tm], ^
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  1200. # [22:44] <jgraham_> pyjsdoc isn't any use since jsdoc isn't any use
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  1219. # [23:22] <bencc> are pointer events for pen and digitizer standard in html5?
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  1221. # [23:22] <Hixie> html5 doesn't even define events for mice...
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  1223. # [23:23] <bencc> Hixie: I'm talking about this: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/09/20/touch-input-for-ie10-and-metro-style-apps.aspx
  1224. # [23:23] <bencc> canvas.addEventListener("MSPointerMove", paint, false);
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  1249. # Session Close: Thu Jun 21 00:00:01 2012

The end :)