/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-06-26 / end

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1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 26 00:00:00 2012
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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277. # [09:41] <asmodai> Have to admit it has some nice ideas: http://blog.brackets.io/
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290. # [09:49] <annevk> cool
291. # [09:50] <Velmont> what is that? irc on phone doesnt make it easy to press hyperlinks :p
292. # [09:50] <asmodai> Web-tech code editor with some nifty ideas
293. # [09:50] <asmodai> open source project by Adobe
294. # [09:52] <Philip`> Velmont: Sounds like you need a better IRC client - even irssi over SSH in ConnectBot lets you follow links :-)
295. # [09:53] <annevk> hmm nobody pointed out this far that iconUrl needs to be resolved
296. # [09:53] <Velmont> Philip`: using fingerterm with a remote irssi. running meego on nokia n9.
297. # [09:53] <Velmont> i'm sure there is a way, just haven't found it yet
298. # [09:54] <Velmont> ooh. found it now. its actually very well made.
299. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> asmodai: I've been messing around with brackets for a few days. indeed pretty nice
300. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> JS editor written in JS
301. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> not unique in that regard I guess but the way they have done is different
302. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> e.g., the fact that it exposes its own source code right in the UI so you can hack on it easily
303. # [09:57] <asmodai> MikeSmith: Some of the ideas are very nice. I like the CSS part editing with the quick edit from HTML
304. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> I didn't even see the CSS stuff yet I guess
305. # [09:57] <asmodai> MikeSmith: Did you see the YouTube vid?
306. # [09:58] <Velmont> oh, yes, looks nice. and livepreview in a real editor ftw.
307. # [09:58] <annevk> also, MIT license
308. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> I looked at parts of several youtube videos from Adobe people involved in the project
309. # [09:58] <annevk> Adobe being awesome
310. # [09:58] <asmodai> annevk: It can happen :)
311. # [09:58] <annevk> I wonder who managed to steer Adobe in the right direction
312. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> Adobe is kicking ass these days for sure
313. # [09:59] <Velmont> so need to get that runn7ng in opera :]
314. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> annevk: several people I bet, at the same time
315. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> Mike Chambers for one
316. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> Arno and Vincent Hardy for sure, and whatever manager they report to
317. # [10:00] <annevk> but Vincent was hired after the fact
318. # [10:00] <asmodai> annevk: Nice video that, I think, also touches on software usability: http://vimeo.com/25058185 :)
319. # [10:00] <asmodai> (Dutch language)
320. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah but Arno's been there for a while I think
321. # [10:01] <annevk> asmodai: nooit van "cow paths" gehoord zeker
322. # [10:01] <asmodai> annevk: Ik kende alleen de Nederlandse term. :)
323. # [10:02] <annevk> asmodai: olifantenpaadjes is echt een ding?
324. # [10:03] <annevk> asmodai: had er niet eerder van gehoord
325. # [10:03] <asmodai> annevk: Yep. :)
326. # [10:03] <annevk> asmodai: wel van http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/#pave-the-cowpaths natuurlijk...
327. # [10:03] <annevk> geinig wel
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329. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> annevk: I'm really glad you and Maciej took the time to put that doc together and get it published when you did
330. # [10:05] <asmodai> annevk: Absolutely. But cool to see so many parallels. :)
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332. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> it is hard to imagine that document ever getting published as-is in the current group
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334. # [10:09] <asmodai> Too many discussions?
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339. # [10:11] <asmodai> Personally I always like background and guideline documents
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344. # [10:14] <annevk> MikeSmith: heh yeah
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346. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> we managed to get a lot of stuff done back in the day
347. # [10:15] <annevk> MikeSmith: with the current regime you'd have to resort to undercover outfits like the WHATWG
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374. # [10:38] <zcorpan> Hixie: should we move document.domain to the obsolete section?
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376. # [10:43] * jgraham is apparently behind the times, since he thought "IRC on phone" must be some kind of text<->speech bridge so you could listen to the conversations
377. # [10:44] <jgraham> On the other hand I am so out of touch that I read "deprecated" when Hixie specs say "obsolete"
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379. # [10:47] <Philip`> Speech on a phone? You mean like the Skype app?
380. # [10:48] <Philip`> It'll never catch on
381. # [10:49] <annevk> using Skype all the time actually since the Phone app is broken again
382. # [10:49] <Ms2ger> asmodai, elephants?
383. # [10:49] <annevk> I have no idea why my iPhone keeps doing bullshit like that
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385. # [10:49] <annevk> but I'm out of warranty now
386. # [10:52] <Ms2ger> Get a B2G phone ;)
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388. # [10:53] <annevk> I'm locked in the Apple ecosystem, need my iTunes
389. # [10:59] <asmodai> Ms2ger: elephant paths, aka cowpaths
390. # [10:59] <asmodai> Ewww, iTunes
391. # [11:00] <annevk> actually small elephant paths
392. # [11:00] <annevk> which makes no sense
393. # [11:00] <annevk> because Dutch
394. # [11:00] <asmodai> It does make sense in a way
395. # [11:00] <asmodai> Elephants travel single file
396. # [11:01] <annevk> they take down trees and everything
397. # [11:02] <asmodai> Maybe we should unleash elephants on W3C meetings?
398. # [11:02] <Philip`> Elephants are scared of mice, but mice are scared of snakes, so elephants travel in single file to make themselves look like an enormous snake
399. # [11:03] <annevk> asmodai: in a Dutch way, just like Python :)
400. # [11:03] <asmodai> I wonder why Adobe Air keeps insisting it needs to be installed when trying to install/update Balsamiq on Chrome. Firefox works as it should. Must be some plugin weirdness going on I guess.
401. # [11:04] <asmodai> annevk: Heh
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419. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> does anybody know of particular sites that use keygen?
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431. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> Philip`: have you ever run a report on keygen?
432. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> from your corpus of sites I mean
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438. # [12:02] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I vaguely remember looking and not finding anything interesting, though I'd expect anything interesting to be on e.g. bank login pages so I wouldn't see those anyway
439. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> hmm true that I guess
440. # [12:04] <annevk> there's a few banks, I think that's it
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449. # [12:12] <Stevef_> grepped top 10,000 home pages did not find keygen element
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451. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> Stevef_: thanks man
452. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> I guess that's to be expected
453. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/ has turned out to be a nice way to look up history of stuff
454. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> can use http://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/advanced_search?type-index=public-whatwg-archive&index-type=t&resultsperpage=20&page=1&sortby=date and choose "Oldest message first" for the "Sort by" field
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459. # [12:46] <zcorpan> no keygens in web200904 either
460. # [12:48] <kennyluck> wow
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462. # [12:50] <zcorpan> but i recall safari implemented keygen (and hence it was added to the spec) because some banks required either keygen or ActiveX
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464. # [13:01] <AryehGregor> It's amazing how much faster and less boring it is to annotate reftests if I don't also have to change all the style attributes to <style> elements.
465. # [13:02] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, BTW, it turns out that Peter is okay with me submitting preexisting tests that aren't formatted per guidelines, it was someone else who marked them Needs Work for stylistic reasons.
466. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> oh really?
467. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> so do I still need to talk with plh about it?
468. # [13:02] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, no, I don't think so.
469. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> OK
470. # [13:02] <AryehGregor> Thanks, though.
471. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> OK
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473. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> thanks for letting me know
474. # [13:03] <AryehGregor> Thanks for offering to help.
475. # [13:03] <AryehGregor> Yeah, keygen is only used by a few sites, but they're important. Maciej once said that WebKit implemented it because it was either that or a whole array of MS-specific technologies, such as (IIRC) the Win32 API.
476. # [13:04] <AryehGregor> Because it's not enough to support ActiveX, you have to support the binaries that are delivered using it . . .
477. # [13:04] <AryehGregor> Too bad keygen is awful.
478. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> yeah
479. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> the problem is that, now that it's in the spec, people who don't know the history behind it now come across it and think that's it some shiny to do new things with
480. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> (btw, I did actually already talk with plh about the CSS test requirements, and we were planning to talk about it on our weekly Interaction Domain call today. So I'll ask him to drop it from the agenda and hopefully we can actually end the meeting earlier.)
481. # [13:11] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: yeah, i should have said ActiveX+win32
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491. # [14:04] <zcorpan> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=248239#c49 what behavior do we want here?
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498. # [14:16] <Ms2ger> jgraham / zcorpan: any of you who feels like explaining http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/file/a38857de5129/Workers/tests/submissions/Opera/constructors/Worker/004.html to me? :)
499. # [14:17] <jgraham> Well zcorpan wrote is so…
500. # [14:17] <jgraham> Wait, what?
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502. # [14:18] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: sure. cross-origin URLs (except data: ) should throw
503. # [14:18] <jgraham> Well it says that Velmont / odinho wrote it (whichever secret identity he is using today), so maybe I'm wrong
504. # [14:19] <jgraham> Argh
505. # [14:19] <zcorpan> uh, i'm pretty sure i wrote that test :-)
506. # [14:19] <jgraham> No I just don't follow the hg output
507. # [14:19] <Ms2ger> So 'unsupported:' is resolvable?
508. # [14:19] <jgraham> I *was* quite sure that you wrote it too :p
509. # [14:19] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: ask annevk :-)
510. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> He's not here, dammit
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512. # [14:21] <jgraham> Really, putting "author Odin Hørthe Omdal <odinho@opera.com>" on the display of a file he never touched is just silly
513. # [14:23] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1619 opera and firefox seem to resolve it (the space turns into %20) but chrome leaves the space (which maybe means it fails to resolve)
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515. # [14:24] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: but, depending on what the URL spec ends up saying, that might need to change to expect SyntaxError instead
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519. # [14:27] <Ms2ger> annevk!
520. # [14:27] <annevk> hey man
521. # [14:28] <Ms2ger> So, URLs :)
522. # [14:28] <annevk> that is the plan
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526. # [14:28] <Ms2ger> And in particular, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/file/a38857de5129/Workers/tests/submissions/Opera/constructors/Worker/004.html
527. # [14:28] <annevk> but it's vacation and somehow I managed to stress myself already
528. # [14:28] * annevk looks
529. # [14:29] <annevk> why would "http://www.example.invalid/" throw?
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533. # [14:29] <annevk> I'm not entirely familiar with new Worker() I guess
534. # [14:30] <Ms2ger> Resolve the scriptURL argument relative to the entry script's base URL, when the method is invoked.
535. # [14:30] <Ms2ger> If this fails, throw a SyntaxError exception.
536. # [14:30] <Ms2ger> If the origin of the resulting absolute URL is not the same as the origin of the entry script, then throw a SecurityError exception.
537. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> that test doesn't actually display anything
538. # [14:31] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, it uses an Opera-internal test harness
539. # [14:31] <Ms2ger> Which I'm fixing
540. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> ah OK
541. # [14:31] <annevk> a origin checks
542. # [14:31] <annevk> that makes sense
543. # [14:32] <annevk> so I guess we haven't decided yet whether resolving can actually fail
544. # [14:32] <annevk> I'm leaning towards yes
545. # [14:32] <annevk> most browsers have a concept of invalid URLs
546. # [14:32] <Ms2ger> Hmm, Gecko doesn't seem to throw much
547. # [14:32] <annevk> all those exceptions for new Worker are origin-related no?
548. # [14:32] <annevk> SecurityError is 18
549. # [14:33] <annevk> so not really about URLs
550. # [14:33] <Ms2ger> Yeah
551. # [14:33] <Ms2ger> Well, the question is if the resolving should already have failed before the origin check
552. # [14:35] <zcorpan> annevk: the unclear case was "unsupported:" since it's not clear if that should resolve to begin with
553. # [14:36] <zcorpan> annevk: if it doesn't resolve, it should throw SyntaxError; if it does resolve, it should throw SecurityError
554. # [14:38] <annevk> I think it should resolve
555. # [14:38] <annevk> it's a valid scheme so it's not a relative reference
556. # [14:39] <zcorpan> ok. wfm! make sure the URL spec agrees :-)
557. # [14:41] <Ms2ger> Now, the data: url
558. # [14:43] <annevk> that becomes a sniffed text/plain resource I guess
559. # [14:44] <annevk> we have made data URLs same-origin for XMLHttpRequest
560. # [14:44] <annevk> not sure why Workers should be an exception
561. # [14:44] <annevk> zcorpan: that's the plan
562. # [14:44] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
563. # [14:45] <Ms2ger> So the spec is wrong?
564. # [14:45] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: we gave spec feedback asking data: to be supported for workers. hixie said it seemed reasonable, but the spec hasn't changed, iirc
565. # [14:45] <AryehGregor> How about we make them both throw the same so we don't have to care why it failed? :)
566. # [14:46] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: we don't support data: for shared workers because it turned out different-origin pages suddenly could communicate if they both open the same data: shared worker, however that is fixable by remembering which origin opened the shared data: url
567. # [14:46] <Ms2ger> Let's kill DOMException and only throw Error :)
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569. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, sounds like I'll have the test expect an exception, then :)
570. # [14:47] <zcorpan> yeah i'm fine with making the test match what the spec currently says
571. # [14:48] <zcorpan> but i still think we should change the spec, since data: urls can be useful :-)
572. # [14:48] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: thanks for doing this btw
573. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> Np
574. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> It's more useful than arguing about signed / unsigned integers over in #developers :)
575. # [14:49] <zcorpan> heh
576. # [14:49] <niloy> can someone please tell me how the browser decides the encoding of responses over ajax ?
577. # [14:50] <Ms2ger> Black magic
578. # [14:50] <niloy> :(
579. # [14:50] <annevk> niloy: do you mean XMLHttpRequest?
580. # [14:50] <niloy> yes
581. # [14:50] <annevk> niloy: what kind of attribute are you accessing?
582. # [14:51] <niloy> JSON data
583. # [14:51] <annevk> niloy: do you set responseType to "json"?
584. # [14:51] <Ms2ger> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/file/a38857de5129/Workers/tests/submissions/Opera/constructors/Worker/005.html
585. # [14:51] <niloy> No, text data later parsed with JSON.parse
586. # [14:51] <annevk> niloy: and then use response? or do you parse responseText?
587. # [14:51] <annevk> k
588. # [14:51] <annevk> niloy: it's described here: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#text-response-entity-body
589. # [14:51] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, any particular reason to make that test both "#" as a URL and the properties of the global?
590. # [14:52] <niloy> annevk, thanks
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592. # [14:55] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: "#" as the URL is the standard way of loading the worker script in this testsuite, ugly hack to make the worker script be in the same file
593. # [14:55] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: it should work per spec!
594. # [14:56] <Ms2ger> So should document.all ;)
595. # [14:56] <zcorpan> i don't see how that's relevant here :-P
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597. # [14:57] <Ms2ger> This standard way hurts my eyes :)
598. # [14:57] <zcorpan> sorry about that
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602. # [15:00] <Ms2ger> Actually...
603. # [15:00] <Ms2ger> Should <!-- in JS work per spec? :)
604. # [15:00] <Ms2ger> (ECMA spec, that is)
605. # [15:00] <zcorpan> should work per http://mathias.html5.org/specs/web-ecmascript/ !
606. # [15:01] <matjas> not per ES
607. # [15:02] <Ms2ger> Then why do you use //-->? :)
608. # [15:03] <zcorpan> the interop with --> was not as good as with <!--. but probably not necessary
609. # [15:03] <zcorpan> feel free to drop it :-)
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617. # [15:17] <annevk> smaug____: did you reach dougt?
618. # [15:17] <annevk> MikeSmith: do you feel like waiting another week or should we just publish it next Thursday?
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620. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> annevk: I guess let's wait a week and have plenty of time to get it ready
621. # [15:20] <annevk> cool cool cool
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625. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> kind of surprised there have not been any responses to the HTTP WG call for expressions of interest for HTTP2
626. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/wiki/Http2CfI
627. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2012AprJun/0718.html
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629. # [15:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: any reason the key "script's base URL" would not work?
630. # [15:34] <annevk> found it
631. # [15:34] <annevk> lowercase yadayadayada
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634. # [15:38] <smaug____> annevk: not yet
635. # [15:38] <smaug____> I did send email
636. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> smaug____: wonder if Doug hangs out on #mobile
637. # [15:45] <MikeSmith> on mozilla irc I mean
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642. # [15:47] <smaug____> MikeSmith: yes. I just ping'ed him
643. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> k
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670. # [16:31] <jgraham> So, does anyone want to write me a browser extension that does inline find just on idl blocks?
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676. # [16:40] <Philip`> jgraham: How about one that lets you type in an XPath query to search for?
677. # [16:40] <jgraham> Philip`: You so funny
678. # [16:41] <Ms2ger> Funnier than you :)
679. # [16:41] <Philip`> Something like https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/xpather/ with a suitable query looks like it should work
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681. # [16:41] <jgraham> Ms2ger: You've heard the expression "damned by faint praise"?
682. # [16:42] <Ms2ger> :D
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713. # [17:15] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1621 http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1622
714. # [17:15] * gsnedder1 is now known as gsnedders
715. # [17:16] <Ms2ger> WorkerGlobalScope.ononline / WorkerGlobalScope.onoffline
716. # [17:16] <Ms2ger> New?
717. # [17:17] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: ononline and onoffline was added to the spec at some point
718. # [17:18] <Ms2ger> Well, presumably it was :)
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720. # [17:18] <zcorpan> which was after the events were added to the spec
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723. # [17:21] <Ms2ger> Also, Chrome doesn't do btoa
724. # [17:22] * boaz|away is now known as boaz
725. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> http://html9responsiveboilerstrapjs.com/ fun stuff
726. # [17:24] <Ms2ger> \o/
727. # [17:24] <Hixie> zcorpan: data: for workers is on my todo list
728. # [17:25] <zcorpan> Hixie: ah, ok
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730. # [17:27] <Ms2ger> Is the set of todo list entries before that uncountable?
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732. # [17:27] <Hixie> no
733. # [17:27] <Hixie> but it's not small
734. # [17:28] <Hixie> re keygen, iirc the bulk of the usage was on intranet sites when i last looked into it
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739. # [17:32] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: you ok with introducing a new quirk here? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=248239#c56
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760. # [17:59] <Ms2ger> No
761. # [17:59] * Ms2ger goes and reads
762. # [18:00] <Ms2ger> Talk to dbaron, please?
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772. # [18:11] <annevk> someone should figure out tables first
773. # [18:12] <annevk> almost never makes sense in my experience to fix bits and pieces without understanding the complete picture
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855. # [19:36] <zewt> bleh, bit by unnecessary setTimeout delays again
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858. # [19:38] <zewt> now i have to try to remember if there were any hacks around that...
859. # [19:39] <jsbell> ms2ger: thanks for the bug link re: "null" dicts.
860. # [19:40] <Ms2ger> Np
861. # [19:40] <Ms2ger> It's been that way all of a day, why didn't you know? ;)
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863. # [19:44] <jsbell> I swear I was looking at the "red" version of the spec when I typed my message; I blame caching. :)
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865. # [19:45] <[tm]> Hixie: thanks for info about keygen
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867. # [19:49] <Ms2ger> [tm], is there some way to get notified about changes to the WebIDL ED?
868. # [19:50] <[tm]> Hixie: but the spec rightly should have a big disclaimer saying "don't actually use this for anything"
869. # [19:51] <[tm]> Ms2ger: no but you can roll one yourself
870. # [19:51] <[tm]> or i guess i can set something up for you
871. # [19:52] <Ms2ger> I don't care, it's for bz :)
872. # [19:52] <[tm]> if you big me enough about it
873. # [19:52] <[tm]> ah
874. # [19:53] <[tm]> well then i will definitely make something then :)
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877. # [19:53] <[tm]> bz deserves it for sure
878. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> I need to remember that line ;)
879. # [19:54] <[tm]> heh
880. # [19:56] * [tm] bows to the force for goodness in the universe that bz is
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885. # [20:01] <[tm]> Ms2ger: you are a similar force for goodness btw
886. # [20:01] <Ms2ger> Me? Naah
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889. # [20:05] <jwalden> gsnedders: I have mail written, fwiw, doing a couple things first before I send it -- probably later this week
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891. # [20:07] <Ms2ger> /month/year/century
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914. # [20:37] <[tm]> Ms2ger: you fully deserve the love
915. # [20:37] * Ms2ger wonders how much [tm] had to drink
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917. # [20:38] * Joins: n00lk0w (~j@64.71.131.74)
918. # [20:38] <n00lk0w> why on earth is theh global draggable attribute enumerated?
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922. # [20:41] <gsnedders> jwalden: k, then I won't subvert you :P
923. # [20:41] <[tm]> n00lk0w: no
924. # [20:42] <jwalden> gsnedders: :-) it was suggested to me that it's harder to stop-energy a patch, so I'll probably do that
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926. # [20:42] <[tm]> maybe in order to match how it's actually implemented, maybe
927. # [20:42] <jwalden> and maybe send mail after
928. # [20:42] <Ms2ger> [tm], is draggable implemented?
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930. # [20:43] <Hixie> [tm]: that applies to a lot in the spec...
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932. # [20:44] <gsnedders> jwalden: Right, I'll almost certainly push change to Carakan this week regardless of what happens. Only possible change will be poisioning it so you can't get the setter.
933. # [20:45] * gsnedders had to back it out when he tried before, because he screwed up, and hasn't got around to fixing it till now
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936. # [20:51] <n00lk0w> Hixie: do you know why it's enumerated?
937. # [20:51] <n00lk0w> <a href=/page draggable>alsdkfj</a> seems pretty intuitive to me
938. # [20:51] <Hixie> hm?
939. # [20:52] <n00lk0w> gramattically, it's indentical to the term "hidden"
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941. # [20:52] <Hixie> what is the question?
942. # [20:52] <n00lk0w> it's an adjective describing an aspect of the element.
943. # [20:52] <n00lk0w> ...why isn't the global @draggable attribute boolean?
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945. # [20:52] <n00lk0w> why does it require an explicitly declared value?
946. # [20:52] * Hixie looks
947. # [20:52] <n00lk0w> seems entirely illogical to me.
948. # [20:53] <Hixie> oh because it has three states
949. # [20:53] <n00lk0w> http://developers.whatwg.org/dnd.html#the-draggable-attribute
950. # [20:53] <Hixie> if it was a boolean there'd be no way to turn off dragging an image using the attribute, e.g.
951. # [20:53] <Hixie> bbiab, lunch
952. # [20:54] <n00lk0w> Hixie: right, but the auto statecould be declared indicated by the absence of that attribute.
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955. # [20:54] <n00lk0w> Hixie: can you elaborate a bit on the image scenario, please?
956. # [20:55] <Ms2ger> <img>
957. # [20:55] <Ms2ger> ^ you can drag that
958. # [20:55] <n00lk0w> Ms2ger: and...?
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973. # [21:23] <n00lk0w> is there a way to declare the default "auto" value of draggable on a per-document basis?
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978. # [21:29] <Hixie> n00lk0w: it varies on a per-element basis
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986. # [21:44] <Hixie> heycam|away: is there some special phrasing i should use to invoke a callback object that might be null?
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994. # [22:04] <n00lk0w> Hixie: then what is the point of the auto value?
995. # [22:04] <n00lk0w> Hixie: also, can you explain your earlier image dragging scenario?
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999. # [22:06] <Hixie> n00lk0w: on a page that doesn't have any script or anything, you can drag an image and a link, but you can't drag a div.
1000. # [22:06] <Hixie> n00lk0w: right?
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1008. # [22:17] <jgraham> HTML pop quiz: <script>var a = window; document.open(); document.close(); setTimeout(function() {alert(a === window)}, x)</script> - what happens and does it depend on the value of x?
1009. # [22:17] * Joins: n00lk0w (~j@64.71.131.75)
1010. # [22:17] <n00lk0w> Hixie: right.
1011. # [22:17] <jgraham> Where by "pop quiz" I mean "I know what some browsers do but I'm not sure I understand what's going on"
1012. # [22:20] <eighty4> jgraham: it gives me "true". Am I right on that at least?
1013. # [22:21] <jgraham> eighty4: Yes.
1014. # [22:22] <eighty4> jgraham: and what would be wrong with that? So not following :/
1015. # [22:22] <Hixie> jgraham: Window gets replaced, but the WindowProxy does not, so it always alerts true.
1016. # [22:22] * Quits: Timz (~Adium@86.89.174.199) (Quit: Leaving.)
1017. # [22:22] <jgraham> Hixie: Right, I think my example doesn't quite demonstrate the issue clearly
1018. # [22:23] <Hixie> n00lk0w: ok so that means the default value of "draggable" needs to be something that makes <img> be draggable and <div> not be draggable
1019. # [22:23] <Hixie> n00lk0w: so it can't be either "true" or "false"
1020. # [22:23] <jgraham> The question is, why does the timeout run at all? It is called on the *old* window object
1021. # [22:25] <Hixie> oh, interesting question
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1025. # [22:27] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
1026. # [22:27] <Hixie> jgraham: it should not fire
1027. # [22:27] <Hixie> jgraham: document.open() clears the timeouts list
1028. # [22:27] <Hixie> jgraham: so my original answer was wrong. it should not alert.
1029. # [22:28] <jgraham> Hixie: The timeout is set *after* document.open
1030. # [22:28] <jgraham> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1624
1031. # [22:28] <Hixie> oh
1032. # [22:28] <Hixie> well then where's the question?
1033. # [22:28] <jgraham> It seems the timeout is a function on the old window object but is called in the context of the new window object
1034. # [22:28] <Hixie> no no
1035. # [22:29] <Hixie> it's on the new Window object
1036. # [22:29] <jgraham> How?
1037. # [22:29] <eighty4> I'm so not following at all :/ Why would it not run? in what way is the settimeout related to you opening/closing a document?
1038. # [22:30] <jgraham> eighty4: opening/closing a document changes the window object for a new one, but doesn't change the global scope of the current script
1039. # [22:30] <Hixie> jgraham: "this" is the WindowProxy
1040. # [22:30] <Hixie> jgraham: not the Window
1041. # [22:30] <jgraham> So in general foo != window.foo
1042. # [22:30] <Hixie> foo === window.foo always
1043. # [22:30] <Hixie> unless "this" is something other than the WindowProxy of course
1044. # [22:31] <Hixie> or you're in a with()...
1045. # [22:31] <Hixie> because this.window === window === this
1046. # [22:31] <jgraham> When you say "always" what do you mean? If I set a property "a" on window window.a !== a
1047. # [22:31] <Hixie> ?
1048. # [22:32] <Hixie> assuming you're in the global scope, window.a === a
1049. # [22:32] <Hixie> unless you have variables i guess
1050. # [22:32] <Hixie> window.a === this.a
1051. # [22:32] <jgraham> Right, that's what I meant
1052. # [22:32] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@ma42036d0.tmodns.net)
1053. # [22:32] <Hixie> other than in a long set of complicated cases, my statement is always true.
1054. # [22:32] <Hixie> :-P
1055. # [22:32] <Hixie> "i'll come in a gain"
1056. # [22:33] <Hixie> again, even
1057. # [22:33] <Hixie> man i can't even type memes right
1058. # [22:33] <jgraham> Heh
1059. # [22:33] <Hixie> anyway my point is that "this" is the WindowProxy in your example
1060. # [22:33] <jgraham> OK, so you have a function setTimeout on the original Window object
1061. # [22:33] <jgraham> and you replace window
1062. # [22:33] <jgraham> and call the original function
1063. # [22:34] <eighty4> so you're saying that b = window; document.open(); b === window should return false?
1064. # [22:34] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@166.137.10.85)
1065. # [22:34] <Hixie> what?
1066. # [22:34] <Hixie> is the name setTimeout() relevant to the question?
1067. # [22:34] <Hixie> i.e. is this a question about JS or about setTimeout
1068. # [22:34] <jgraham> Not really
1069. # [22:35] <n00lk0w> Hixie: got it. thanks :P
1070. # [22:35] <Hixie> jgraham: i don't understand your question
1071. # [22:35] <Hixie> jgraham: but "window" and "this" at the global scope are both the same object, namely, the magic WindowProxy object.
1072. # [22:36] <jgraham> Well I guess setTimeout is relevant because it lets you run code later, after the current script
1073. # [22:37] <Hixie> try asking a new question
1074. # [22:37] <jgraham> Hixie: The point was that after document.open I would expect window.setTimeout !== setTimeout
1075. # [22:37] <Hixie> ah ok
1076. # [22:38] <Hixie> well that point is wrong
1077. # [22:38] <jgraham> Which seems to be true
1078. # [22:38] <Hixie> window.setTimeout === this.setTimeout because window === this.
1079. # [22:38] <jgraham> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1625 says true in Gecko at least
1080. # [22:38] <jgraham> Yeah but this is not the global scope at that point
1081. # [22:38] <Hixie> what does "a" have to do with anything in that test?
1082. # [22:39] <Hixie> the setTimeout() callback's |this| is also the WindowProxy
1083. # [22:39] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1626
1084. # [22:39] <Hixie> the correct answers are "true" and "true"
1085. # [22:39] <jgraham> a is irrelevant, I should have deleted it
1086. # [22:40] <Hixie> k
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1089. # [22:40] <jgraham> I don't see how the first is supposed to be "true"
1090. # [22:41] <jgraham> I assume the global scope isn't supposed to change under the unning script
1091. # [22:41] <Hixie> do you agree that "foo" is equivalent to "this.foo" in a function with no arguments, no variables, and no with statement?
1092. # [22:41] <jgraham> *running
1093. # [22:42] <jgraham> In pure ECMAScript I think that is true. A browser is not pure
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1095. # [22:43] <Hixie> well if (foo !== this.foo) in a function with no arguments, no variables, and no with statement, i've no idea what it would be then
1096. # [22:44] <Hixie> if that statement is not true then my assumptions are flawed and i cannot draw any conclusions
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1098. # [22:44] <jgraham> Well it's not true in Gecko at least
1099. # [22:44] <jgraham> According to your test
1100. # [22:44] <Hixie> gecko is buggy.
1101. # [22:45] <jgraham> Perhaps
1102. # [22:46] <smaug____> jgraham: in which case foo !== this.foo ?
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1104. # [22:46] <smaug____> ah, I see
1105. # [22:46] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1628
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1107. # [22:46] <Hixie> <script>onload = function() { document.open(); document.close(); foo = {}; w(this.foo === foo); }</script>
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1109. # [22:46] <smaug____> I wonder if the spec is buggy
1110. # [22:47] <Hixie> i don't understand how foo = {}; w(this.foo === foo); can print false.
1111. # [22:47] <smaug____> this points to the old window
1112. # [22:47] <Hixie> this points to the WindowProxy
1113. # [22:48] <smaug____> it points to the this of the load event listener
1114. # [22:48] <jgraham> I should note that WebKit cheats with document.open; it doesn't replace the window object at all
1115. # [22:48] <Hixie> oh, hm, the this of hte load event...
1116. # [22:48] <Hixie> interesting
1117. # [22:48] <Hixie> but still, whether it's the this of the load event or not
1118. # [22:48] <Hixie> i don't understand how foo = {}; w(this.foo === foo); can print false
1119. # [22:49] <Hixie> surely "foo" is equivalent to "this.foo"
1120. # [22:49] <Hixie> in that code
1121. # [22:49] <smaug____> why ?
1122. # [22:49] <smaug____> hmm
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1124. # [22:49] <Hixie> oh wait...
1125. # [22:49] * abarth_ is now known as abarth
1126. # [22:49] <Hixie> this is that thing the ES group refuses to spec
1127. # [22:49] <Hixie> isn't it
1128. # [22:49] <smaug____> foo would be set to the current global, no?
1129. # [22:49] <Hixie> that the global scope doesn't equal the global
1130. # [22:49] <Hixie> er
1131. # [22:49] <Hixie> that the global scope doesn't equal the this
1132. # [22:50] <jgraham> It depends if this is a pointer to the window or the global scope
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1134. # [22:50] <smaug____> in load event listener 'this is pointer to the window
1135. # [22:50] <Hixie> riiiight
1136. # [22:51] <Hixie> "If the script's global object is a Window object, then in JavaScript, the ThisBinding of the global execution context for this script must be the Window object's WindowProxy object, rather than the global object."
1137. # [22:51] <Hixie> that's the problem
1138. # [22:51] <Hixie> ok
1139. # [22:52] <Hixie> jgraham: ok so i agree that you are calling setTimeout on the old Window object. The timeout still runs, because it's callback is associated with the Document, which is still active.
1140. # [22:52] <Hixie> jgraham: and it always alerts true, because "a" and "window" are both the WindowProxy
1141. # [22:52] <jgraham> And when it runs, what does it get as the this object, or the window object?
1142. # [22:52] <Hixie> s/it's/its/
1143. # [22:53] <Hixie> that's defined in the setTimeout() section, it gets the WindowProxy as its "this"
1144. # [22:54] <Hixie> and as its global scope it gets the original Window object
1145. # [22:54] <jgraham> That makes sense I guess
1146. # [22:54] <jgraham> Yes, that has to be true
1147. # [22:54] <jgraham> Changing the ES scope chain under the script would be unusually evil
1148. # [22:54] <jgraham> even for the web
1149. # [22:55] <Hixie> so http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=1626 should print false, and true
1150. # [22:55] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@ma42036d0.tmodns.net)
1151. # [22:55] <Hixie> so webkit is buggy
1152. # [22:55] <Hixie> (as you said above)
1153. # [22:56] <jgraham> Great, that makes more sense now :)
1154. # [22:56] <jgraham> Thanks!
1155. # [22:56] <smaug____> (webkit doesn't really do anything with document.open. no new window, no session history etc)
1156. # [22:58] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
1157. # [22:58] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@66-87-2-32.pools.spcsdns.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1158. # [22:58] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
1159. # [22:59] <jgraham> Time to listen to some Jeeves and Wooster on the radio, I think
1160. # [22:59] <jgraham> Oh except the next episode is not up yet
1161. # [22:59] <jgraham> tears before bedtime
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1166. # [23:05] * cgcardona_ is now known as cgcardona
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1168. # [23:07] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
1169. # [23:12] <zewt> down with hard to read fixed-width-font tracker
1170. # [23:13] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@212.226.58.0) (Remote host closed the connection)
1171. # [23:13] <Hixie> tracker...?
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1175. # [23:14] <zewt> bug tracker?
1176. # [23:16] * Quits: yodasw16 (~dgillhesp@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com) (Quit: yodasw16)
1177. # [23:18] <Hixie> bugzilla?
1178. # [23:18] <Hixie> what's hard to read about bugzilla?
1179. # [23:19] * Hixie uses fixed width text for pretty much everything... irc, email, emacs, bugs...
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1181. # [23:21] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
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1203. # [23:48] <jamesr> i wonder if there's research on the relative reading speed of fixed vs propotional fonts for programmers who stare at fixed-width fonts all day
1204. # [23:48] <jamesr> maybe it's different from genpop
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1206. # [23:49] <Hixie> heh
1207. # [23:49] <Hixie> maybe
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1210. # Session Close: Wed Jun 27 00:00:00 2012

The end :)