/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-06-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jun 30 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  38. # [01:24] <gsnedders> jwalden: Any discussion anywhere/bug report about __proto__ in SM, BTW?
  39. # [01:25] <jwalden> gsnedders: not yet, trying to fly under the radar until I have a completed patch
  40. # [01:25] * jwalden has one mostly completed now
  41. # [01:25] <gsnedders> Nice, large clean-up, I guess? :)
  42. # [01:25] <jwalden> not too much, actually
  43. # [01:26] <jwalden> the problem is the current way we do it depends on a lot of incidental side effects
  44. # [01:26] <jwalden> which are not present if we make the stuff proper accessors
  45. # [01:26] <gsnedders> Ah.
  46. # [01:26] <jwalden> also various code that depends on those incidental side effects
  47. # [01:27] <jwalden> brendan is right that it's more work to do it this way, and presents various transition hazards and potential for bugs
  48. # [01:27] <jwalden> doesn't change that it's the right thing to do in the long run, tho
  49. # [01:28] <jwalden> also the current way we're doing it, the current mechanism for properties like that, is quite under-understood, and it's been on my kill list for awhile
  50. # [01:28] <jwalden> although in a longer-term sense, because a lot of stuff used it
  51. # [01:28] <gsnedders> Ah, in our case it wasn't much of a clean-up apart from removing __proto__ special-casing in [[Get]], [[Put]] given we had a single (C++) method that actually did the mutation.
  52. # [01:28] <jwalden> SpiderMonkey is old, and it predates many of the specs
  53. # [01:28] <jwalden> it has a lot of barnacles
  54. # [01:29] <jwalden> far fewer now than six years ago when I first started hacking SpiderMonkey code, but still a bunch
  55. # [01:29] <gsnedders> Yeah, Carakan doesn't really have that disadvantage, given it's only a few years old :)
  56. # [01:29] <jwalden> we have a single method as well
  57. # [01:29] <jwalden> the problem is that single method doesn't also contemplate various access checks needed to safely do/not do the mutation
  58. # [01:30] <gsnedders> Of stuff like circular protos, or?
  59. # [01:31] <gsnedders> (Or stuff like cross-context?)
  60. # [01:32] <jwalden> no, the central method does that
  61. # [01:32] <jwalden> cross-context is the issue
  62. # [01:32] <jwalden> cross-global object more precisely
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  64. # [01:33] <gsnedders> Ah. I believe we allow cross-context stuff, but any access will throw.
  65. # [01:33] <jwalden> with the current magic property mechanism, it executes in the context of the object where the "property"'s being set
  66. # [01:33] <jwalden> with accessors, not the case
  67. # [01:33] <jwalden> also there's extra complexity for things like proxies -- Proxy.create(...).__proto__ will never hit the current mechanism, because it'll hit a getPropertyDescriptor trap or whatever, which can only expose accessors or data properties
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  69. # [01:34] <jwalden> so an accessor has to tiptoe a little more
  70. # [01:34] <gsnedders> Yeah, not having implemented that yet probably helps :)
  71. # [01:34] <jwalden> likely
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  73. # [01:38] <gsnedders> Also: reading up stuff I'd starred on es5-discuss is scary. Stuff like Function.caller not throwing despite being [[Writable]]: false in strict mode in Carakan.
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  92. # [02:41] <jwalden> fun.{caller,length} and various others are other instances of the same magical-data-property sadness, fwiw
  93. # [02:42] <jwalden> there used to be some for various instance properties of RegExps, and Strings, but I converted them into actual data properties awhile back with some effort
  94. # [02:42] <jwalden> much much less pain now from them
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  123. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> Hixie:
  124. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> [[
  125. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> Currently you need a DOCTYPE, a character encoding declaration, a title,
  126. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> and some content.
  127. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> ]]
  128. # [04:23] <MikeSmith> since when has the spec required some content?
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  183. # [09:49] <annevk> MikeSmith: how is content defiend?
  184. # [09:49] <annevk> defined*
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  186. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> annevk: dunno but I guess I assumed it means the body has to have some non-empty content
  187. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> regardless I can't find such a requirement in the spec
  188. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> (the context of me wondering about it is a recent message from Hixie to the whatwg list)
  189. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: in other news, what the hell is dude going on about in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17659
  190. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> "XML lacks native hypermedia affordances, which makes attainment of it's #1 goal impossible"
  191. # [09:54] <annevk> I like it
  192. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> "seven hypermedia "atoms" which can be recombined, six of which are tried and true, the seventh which will hopefully become so"
  193. # [09:55] <annevk> sounds like he wants xml:href, but maybe he's trying to become President of the US instead via an elaborate workaround
  194. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> hahaha
  195. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK I guess I should re-assign that bug to you
  196. # [09:55] <benvie> lord of rings
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  198. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> or I think I'll post a comment "Marking this as invalid because it lacks mention of RDF."
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  201. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> btw I wonder if anybody knows how to get the whatwg mailing-list server to add a Archived-At header
  202. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> for e.g., http://www.w3.org/mid/Pine.LNX.4.64.1206292028360.30734@ps20323.dreamhostps.com
  203. # [10:00] <annevk> MikeSmith: haha
  204. # [10:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: the software is from DreamHost
  205. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> oh
  206. # [10:01] <annevk> or well, they provide it I think
  207. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> it's mailman, right?
  208. # [10:01] <annevk> yup
  209. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> google says mailman v3 apparently has some support for it
  210. # [10:03] <annevk> MikeSmith: found http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Stable+URLs from 2009
  211. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> yeah
  212. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> I think they've since added it
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  215. # [10:07] <annevk> there's some discussion about this every now and then
  216. # [10:07] <annevk> I think Philip` had some notes too
  217. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> ok
  218. # [10:07] <annevk> but I think our main bottleneck is DreamHost
  219. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> could solve that by changing to a VM hosting service where you have root
  220. # [10:10] <annevk> http://wiki.dreamhost.com/Discussion_Lists
  221. # [10:10] <annevk> well they'd prolly allow you to run your own software
  222. # [10:10] <annevk> I just don't think we have anyone who wants to maintain that
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  224. # [10:12] <annevk> anyone here with an account on that wiki? could add the request to the talk page
  225. # [10:13] <Hixie> MikeSmith: there's a should or something somewhere, look for something like "palpable content"
  226. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> ah
  227. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> Hixie: OK, thanks
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  229. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> me finds "Conformance checkers are encouraged to provide a mechanism for authors to find elements that fail to fulfill this requirement, as an authoring aid."
  230. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> will open a validator bug for adding that
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  250. # [11:54] <Ms2ger> Oh look, unprefixed IDB
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  293. # [14:05] <sarspazam> i really do <3 normalise css
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  310. # [15:22] <tomasf> does anyone actually use chunk-extension in chunked transfer encoding for anything? if so, what?
  311. # [15:22] <tomasf> (;key=value;foo=bar after hexadecimal chunk length, before CRLF)
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  413. # [21:24] <Velmont> [14:16] <Ms2ger> jgraham / zcorpan: any of you who feels like explaining http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/file/a38857de5129/Workers/tests/submissions/Opera/constructors/Worker/004.html to me? :)
  414. # [21:24] <Velmont> [14:21] <jgraham> Really, putting "author Odin Hørthe Omdal <odinho@opera.com>" on the display of a file he never touched is just silly
  415. # [21:25] <Velmont> jgraham: Yeah, it's just more Mercurial pecuilar "features". That one just says I was the last to touch the entire repository. So it says odinho at everything...
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  419. # [21:46] <Ms2ger> Velmont, I bet it says Ms2ger now
  420. # [21:50] <Velmont> Ms2ger: Not that link, it never will, because it's not at tip.
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  446. # [23:05] <jgraham> Yeah, I'm going with "bug", although I suppose the hgweb would argue "feature"
  447. # [23:05] <jgraham> +peopel
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  449. # [23:20] <GPHemsley> TabAtkins_: Where is the work you're doing on color? Is it available somewhere?
  450. # [23:22] <annevk> hmm
  451. # [23:22] <annevk> www-style is about a thousand emails a month
  452. # [23:22] <annevk> did they really think discussing Fullscreen there was a great idea?
  453. # [23:23] <annevk> aahhh great
  454. # [23:23] <annevk> the editor's draft suggests whatwg@whatwg.org
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The end :)