/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-07-04 / end

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  48. # [01:48] <smokeyrat> Do you think that HTTP 2.0 will be released soon in a Windows 95 style commercial jippo with new versions of all major browsers coming out within a week with full support for it and where the protocol supports native and standard and super-safe payments totally free from transaction fees and where any webpage (such as our HTML 5 games) may ask if the user wants to insta-pay $0.1 to play the game,
  49. # [01:48] <smokeyrat> or any other amount, and when they click yes, it's transferred instantly to our bank account? Because that would be a very, very, very welcome addition to HTML 5 + CSS 3 + modern JavaScript.
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  64. # [02:14] <TabAtkins_> ...what the hell?
  65. # [02:15] <smokeyrat> What the hell what?
  66. # [02:16] <TabAtkins_> Your bizarro train-of-thought spew.
  67. # [02:16] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  68. # [02:19] <smokeyrat> Bizarro?
  69. # [02:19] <smokeyrat> It is a very good idea.
  70. # [02:19] <smokeyrat> And something I've wanted for ages.
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  72. # [02:20] <tantek> Is there a REQUEST-PONY header in HTTP 2.0?
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  74. # [02:20] <smokeyrat> Why are you making fun of this?
  75. # [02:21] <smokeyrat> Do you have any idea how this would revolutionize the Internet?
  76. # [02:21] <tantek> is "Windows 95 style commercial jippo" not a humorous reference?
  77. # [02:21] <smokeyrat> I meant that it would be big-scale.
  78. # [02:21] <smokeyrat> Something that everyone hears about.
  79. # [02:21] <tantek> or "all major browsers coming out within a week with full support for"
  80. # [02:21] <tantek> (which has never happened on any spec/feature AFAIK)
  81. # [02:21] <smokeyrat> Yes, "very soon".
  82. # [02:21] <tantek> or "super-safe payments" (what does that mean?)
  83. # [02:21] <smokeyrat> Maybe they have had some kind of secret board meeting and agreed on this and worked behind the scenes.
  84. # [02:22] <smokeyrat> The point is that it would be truly global, instant, no hazzles and one-click.
  85. # [02:22] <tantek> or "totally free from transaction fees" is that a wish? or a requirement in a standard? or an expected market outcome?
  86. # [02:22] <smokeyrat> Or the transaction fee would have to be truly in %, so if the payment is $0.1, the fee truly is just a fraction of that. No minimum charges.
  87. # [02:23] <smokeyrat> This would open so many doors.
  88. # [02:23] <tantek> sounds like you're asking for some kind of micropayment standard
  89. # [02:23] <tantek> searching for that...
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  91. # [02:23] <smokeyrat> I would sure as hell pay $0.1 to support a nice game or article, but I would not bother today to send that amount.
  92. # [02:23] <smokeyrat> No... I mean that it should be right into the HTTP protocol, thus in the native browser UI.
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  95. # [02:24] <tantek> the HTTP protocol is a standard
  96. # [02:24] <tantek> and $0.1 would be a micropayment
  97. # [02:24] <tantek> so I repeat, sounds like you're asking for some kind of micropayment standard
  98. # [02:24] <tantek> looking up micropayment...
  99. # [02:24] <tantek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micropayment#History
  100. # [02:25] <tantek> looks like there is bad news
  101. # [02:25] <tantek> "During the late 1990s, there was a movement to create microtransaction standards,[5] and the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) worked on incorporating micropayments into HTML even going as far as to suggest the embedding of payment-request information in HTTP error codes.[4] The W3C has since stopped its efforts in this area,[4]"
  102. # [02:26] <tantek> If you'd like to propose a micropayment standard e.g. as an extension of HTTP, perhaps consider attempting to start a W3C Community Group on "HTTP micropayments" and see if you can get other people involved: http://www.w3.org/community/
  103. # [02:27] <smokeyrat> I can't propose anything. It will have to come from the big boys who people listen to.
  104. # [02:27] <smokeyrat> That they have not sat down in a conference room years ago is a mystery.
  105. # [02:27] <smokeyrat> There must be some kind of evil conspiracy requiring them to not make it easy for people to pay and charge.
  106. # [02:27] <tantek> most successful standards start from individuals with good ideas, not "big boys"
  107. # [02:28] <tantek> from the Wikipedia article, sounds like they did discuss it (whether in a conference room or not is unknown) and eventually stopped efforts.
  108. # [02:28] <tantek> no evil conspiracy is required for inaction. that's simply inertia.
  109. # [02:29] <tantek> anyway, if you want to make it happen, try starting a community group to see if there is interest from others. if no one else is interested, then it means it's not worth creating a standard for it. if there are others interested, then you have to do the hard work of figuring out how it would work.
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  113. # [02:34] <smokeyrat> :|
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  115. # [02:34] <smokeyrat> It's obvious that it's needed.
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  122. # [02:38] <TabAtkins_> Not necessarily. Micropayments have been attempted in lots of forms, both online and off. They don't work very well. Human psychology makes a huge deal of the difference between "free" and "not free", even if the "not free" is "so cheap it's practically free".
  123. # [02:38] <TabAtkins_> So, asking someone to pay 1 cent is psychologically equivalent to asking them to pay a few bucks, in terms of how willing the average person is willing to do it.
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  125. # [02:39] <TabAtkins_> This might be changeable - it's not clear if this is something built into our psyche, or if it's a result of microtransactions never really being viable in the real world before the last few decades.
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  127. # [02:39] <TabAtkins_> But resistance will be high regardless.
  128. # [02:40] <TabAtkins_> (There were simple experiments with real-world things, like giving people a choice between a 15c truffle and a 1c hershey kiss - 3/4 chose the truffle. But if you drop the kiss to free, 2/3 choose it instead. Most people's brains break when they see "free".)
  129. # [02:43] <tantek> TabAtkins - the positive examples are music downloads (iTunes, Amazon) for < $1, and ringtones as well
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  131. # [02:43] <tantek> as well as all those things people buy on Zynga games Farmville etc.
  132. # [02:43] <tantek> so there is some psychological precedent for it
  133. # [02:43] <tantek> especially in the use-case mentioned of (HTML5) games
  134. # [02:44] <tantek> why should Zynga make (nearly?) all the online/web game micropayment $?
  135. # [02:44] <smokeyrat> TabAtkins_: Well, the price example was just an example.
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  137. # [02:44] <TabAtkins_> tantek: That's true. We do have a lot more microtransactions in today's world.
  138. # [02:44] <smokeyrat> But even paying $1 is ridiculous today. It's eaten up by fees and is not anywhere near instant or hazzle-free.
  139. # [02:45] <smokeyrat> In fact, it's a nightmare of credit card info, codes, bank hardware dongles and fees.
  140. # [02:45] <smokeyrat> Or paying $10.
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  143. # [02:47] <tantek> smokeyrat, Apple, Amazon, Zynga and others have figured out how to make < $1 payments work, perhaps you could research how they've done it and report back your results.
  144. # [02:48] <tantek> oh and please post your research on the web somewhere, preferably at a permalink with a creative commons / public domain license - that helps for work towards a standard
  145. # [02:50] <smokeyrat> For them there isn't anything to figure out. It's a closed system with lots of users.
  146. # [02:50] <smokeyrat> They enter cash and then they have some virtual credits to spend instantly.
  147. # [02:50] <smokeyrat> Couldn't be simpler.
  148. # [02:51] <tantek> smokeyrat - perhaps you could write up your analysis in a blog post
  149. # [02:51] <TabAtkins_> You're thinking of Zynga. Tantek also pointed out Apple and Amazon, which do microtransactions directly off your CC.
  150. # [02:51] <smokeyrat> I was not aware that they do that. But that would require CC entering, etc.
  151. # [02:52] <smokeyrat> So basically they store your CC info. Is that novel?
  152. # [02:52] <TabAtkins_> Storing CC information is trivial - browsers do that already for autocomplete.
  153. # [02:52] <smokeyrat> That went well for Sony...
  154. # [02:52] <TabAtkins_> The difficulty appears to lay elsewhere.
  155. # [02:57] <zewt> TabAtkins_: well, browsers seem to attempt to *not* store CC info
  156. # [02:57] <zewt> (but that's a special case)
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  159. # [03:04] * TabAtkins_ just realized that </figcaption> isn't an implied end tag. :/
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  183. # [04:23] <guzzlefry> should the xml:lang attribute be used in HTML5?
  184. # [04:24] <MikeSmith> guzzlefry: no not in text/html documents
  185. # [04:24] <zewt> just use @lang
  186. # [04:24] <guzzlefry> k, thanks
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  228. # [07:11] <guzzlefry> Does HTML5 have implicit end tags like older versions (pre-XHML)?
  229. # [07:13] <guzzlefry> s/XHML/XHTML
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  244. # [07:34] <daurnimator> do you guys know of some way to test a http client? I wrote one yesterday and what to check it against strange corner cases. connection losses, timeouts, shutdowns; broken ssl handshakes and unexpected re-negotiations. etc
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  251. # [07:51] <MikeSmith> daurnimator: I thought the HTTPbis WG had a test suite
  252. # [07:54] <daurnimator> MikeSmith: not much of one... and definiently not one that really tests the underlying tcp connection
  253. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> I see
  254. # [07:55] <MikeSmith> maybe could use some tests from browser projects
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  288. # [09:51] <zcorpan> TabAtkins_: @import should maybe use the same rules as <link> when it comes to requiring text/css type and quirks mode
  289. # [09:51] <zcorpan> TabAtkins_: opera seems to use the same logic while chrome and firefox allow text/plain also in standards mode
  290. # [09:57] <zcorpan> TabAtkins_: hmm, chrome seems to allow text/html cross-origin @imports which i think is a security problem
  291. # [09:57] <zcorpan> in quirks mode
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  347. # [11:11] <jgraham> The internet is funny. CERN live streams a seminar intended for research scientists at which Higgs boson results are announced. Internet complains that a) research level particle physics is hard to follow and b) they used comic sans in the presentation
  348. # [11:11] <shwetank> they wanted an apple keynote of the whole thing
  349. # [11:13] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@5ade2fae.bb.sky.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  350. # [11:13] <moo-_-> are we confident that Higgs is smaller than pixels in retina display?
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  356. # [11:22] <jgraham> shwetank: I guess. Sadly the real world doesn't work like that
  357. # [11:22] <jgraham> (also I feel great now I got to describe academica as "the real world")
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  363. # [11:29] <Lachy> moo-_-, that depends, how do you define the mass of a pixel in the retina display?
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  365. # [11:32] <Philip`> Lachy: Mass of screen divided by number of pixels?
  366. # [11:34] <Lachy> do you include the mass of the glass covering it, or just the mass of the phosphorus material? Or you could define it as the energy emitted from the pixel when it's on.
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  369. # [11:45] <Ms2ger> var scrollTo = window.scrollTo;
  370. # [11:45] <Ms2ger> w(scrollTo);
  371. # [11:45] <Ms2ger> What should be logged?
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  376. # [11:47] <jgraham> Ohn interesting
  377. # [11:49] <jgraham> Presumably it depends on whether var scrollTo creates a new global given that one already exists
  378. # [11:49] <jgraham> on the window object
  379. # [11:50] <Ms2ger> I, too, would presume that :)
  380. # [11:50] * Ms2ger looks for gsnedders
  381. # [11:52] <ashemedai> ObligatoryVenting: not being able to discern at on-hover whether a link opens a JavaScript window on top of your existing window, loads content in your current window, or if it opens a new window/tab.
  382. # [11:52] <ashemedai> So frustrating and unclear at times.
  383. # [11:52] <Ms2ger> They used Comic Sans MS?!
  384. # [11:52] <ashemedai> Ms2ger: Yes, ultimate troll :)
  385. # [11:52] <Ms2ger> What, me?
  386. # [11:52] <Ms2ger> Thanks :)
  387. # [11:52] <ashemedai> The Comic Cans
  388. # [11:52] <ashemedai> Sans
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  390. # [11:54] <ashemedai> Ultimate Science requires levity in the form of a funny font
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  393. # [11:55] <Philip`> Surely real science should be conveyed with a marker pen and transparency and OHP
  394. # [11:56] <Ms2ger> Chalk, dammit
  395. # [11:56] <jgraham> Using comic sans for presentations is a tradition that dates back for as long as people have been making computer-based slideshows
  396. # [11:57] <Ms2ger> Though, the ultimate troll would be using Comic Sans MS in a LaTeX presentation
  397. # [11:57] <jgraham> In an ideal world each slide is a couple of words plus a graph anyway
  398. # [11:57] <jgraham> Nah, the ultimate troll was the guy that used 12pt Times New Roman
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  403. # [12:11] <Philip`> Nothing beats a graph with red-squiggly-underlined words that's clearly been screenshotted from Excel
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  405. # [12:13] <odinho> annevk: Did you see the svg?
  406. # [12:13] <annevk> odinho: no missed it
  407. # [12:14] <Ms2ger> Nothing beats a maintainer for those canvas tests...
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  410. # [12:15] <annevk> odinho: pointer/
  411. # [12:15] <annevk> ?
  412. # [12:16] <odinho> Computer strugling
  413. # [12:16] <odinho> omfg. some memory leak there!
  414. # [12:17] <Ms2ger> Opera had memory leaks first
  415. # [12:17] <odinho> Ms2ger: You bet'cha
  416. # [12:17] <odinho> Ms2ger: But then Fx came and owned us :-(
  417. # [12:17] <Ms2ger> :D
  418. # [12:18] <odinho> annevk: http://odin.s0.no/tmp/Hodges_odinho-CORS-Diagram-SimpleRequest.svg
  419. # [12:19] <annevk> that looks like the Core-Doxcs t-shirt :)
  420. # [12:19] <odinho> ...
  421. # [12:19] <odinho> Did I save over it :P
  422. # [12:19] <Ms2ger> Zing
  423. # [12:19] <annevk> euh
  424. # [12:20] <annevk> Core-Docxs
  425. # [12:21] <annevk> minor announcement: http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/07/leaving-opera
  426. # [12:21] <odinho> annevk: http://odin.s0.no/tmp/Hodges_odinho-CORS-Diagram-SimpleRequest.svg Tada
  427. # [12:22] <annevk> my IRC client still displays the same picture funnily enough
  428. # [12:22] <odinho> Hm. Although I used Ubuntu font, so maybe I should use something neutral like arial if it messes up other places.
  429. # [12:22] <odinho> annevk: IRC client with pictures? Wat?
  430. # [12:22] <odinho> My lingogi shows the correct one now.
  431. # [12:23] <annevk> LimeChat shows images inline
  432. # [12:23] <annevk> including SVG
  433. # [12:24] <annevk> odinho: instead of .com it should prolly say .example or something
  434. # [12:24] <annevk> odinho: also GET lyrics.com/hello.txt is wrong
  435. # [12:24] <annevk> it's GET /hello.txt
  436. # [12:24] <annevk> Host: lyrics.com
  437. # [12:25] * Philip` thinks using a non-conventional TLD like ".example" would make the diagram harder to understand
  438. # [12:26] <odinho> annevk: It's not supposed to be real. It also misses the HTTP/1.1 stuff
  439. # [12:26] <odinho> I agree with Philip`
  440. # [12:26] <odinho> I'm just trying to make it easy for them newbies :P
  441. # [12:26] <odinho> But, lunch out in the sun!
  442. # [12:26] <Philip`> (since "webapps.com" is clearly a domain name, but "webapps.example" isn't, so it'd have to be written like "http://webapps.example" to make it unambiguous but then it'd still look kind of weird)
  443. # [12:27] <odinho> won't anybody think of the children!!11
  444. # [12:27] <annevk> yeah but there are some unwritten rules against using actual domain names
  445. # [12:27] <smaug____> annevk: Leaving Opera? What will you do?
  446. # [12:28] <annevk> smaug____: nothing much for now :)
  447. # [12:28] <smaug____> oh
  448. # [12:28] <smaug____> that is possibly a good choice
  449. # [12:28] <smaug____> and after that, you'd be welcome to Mozilla ;)
  450. # [12:31] <smaug____> annevk: does this change affect to your role as a spec editor?
  451. # [12:32] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke_
  452. # [12:37] <annevk> smaug____: dunno, hope not too much, I like writing specs
  453. # [12:38] * Quits: gwicke_ (~gabriel@212.255.43.36) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  454. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> annevk: http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Recruitment/#techeditor
  455. # [12:38] * Parts: icaaq (~Adium@c-3fa8e455.68-1076-74657210.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  456. # [12:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: the link makes it sound interesting, but then there's "for HTML Working Group" on the actual page :)
  457. # [12:39] * Areks is now known as Seldon
  458. # [12:39] <smaug____> what... " lead editor for the HTML Working Group"
  459. # [12:39] * Seldon is now known as Areks
  460. # [12:41] <annevk> the HTML WG is the new old HTML WG
  461. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> annevk: trail of broken hearts behind you. First you leave the CSS WG, then the HTML WG, and now this
  462. # [12:43] <annevk> MikeSmith: quit while you're ahead?
  463. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> heh
  464. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> are you ahead?
  465. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> annevk: leave them wanting more
  466. # [12:44] <annevk> dunno really, but soon I'm an unemployed bum and I like that idea
  467. # [12:46] <annevk> CSS WG was too much abuse, HTML WG was too much process abuse and irrelevant anyway given the WHATWG
  468. # [12:47] <annevk> I had no conflicts with Opera though, just felt like trying something else
  469. # [12:47] <Ms2ger> WCSSTWG?
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  471. # [12:50] <annevk> CSS WG was actually also mostly process nonsense, like how to divide WDs rather than how to solve problems
  472. # [12:50] <annevk> combined with a madman in charge that just gives problems
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  474. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> maybe the CSS WG would work better if it were more like the WebApps WG
  475. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> WebApps WG seem to somehow be able to get stuff done without anybody trying to micro-manage it all and layer further process on it
  476. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> anyway, question: Is there really no HTTP test suite anywhere?
  477. # [13:00] <annevk> IETF and testing? mwaha
  478. # [13:00] <zcorpan> is there a HTTP spec that doesn't suck?
  479. # [13:00] <annevk> jreschke has a couple of tests for some features though
  480. # [13:01] <annevk> zcorpan: rhetorical?
  481. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> it seems whacky that IETF culture does not see any need for requiring test suites for RFCs
  482. # [13:02] <Ms2ger> Why would you need tests? They're only requesting comments
  483. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> heh
  484. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> but don't browser projects have HTTP tests?
  485. # [13:03] <annevk> for RFCs it makes sense I guess, but not STDs
  486. # [13:03] <jgraham> We should rename W3C specs RFTs
  487. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> I would think Mozilla would at least have some HTTP tests
  488. # [13:03] <jgraham> I expect everybody has some HTTP tests
  489. # [13:03] <jgraham> Possibly not packaged as a suite
  490. # [13:03] <Ms2ger> Mm
  491. # [13:03] <jgraham> Or easy to reuse
  492. # [13:04] <Ms2ger> And ours run JS on the server
  493. # [13:04] <Ms2ger> So unless everyone wants to run a Gecko server... ;)
  494. # [13:06] <MikeSmith> wonder if it's time to write an HTTP spec
  495. # [13:06] <ashemedai> annevk: Eh? Unemployed? How so?
  496. # [13:07] <ashemedai> MikeSmith: As an update to HTTP or merely a more concise up-to-date spec?
  497. # [13:07] <jgraham> ashemedai: Oslo ran out of bacon cheeseburgers
  498. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> ashemedai: as a real spec to document how it actually works
  499. # [13:08] <ashemedai> jgraham: Noooooes!
  500. # [13:08] <annevk> ashemedai: well you know, when you quit your job and there's no direct follow-up, that's what happens
  501. # [13:08] <annevk> :)
  502. # [13:09] <ashemedai> MikeSmith: I can tell you that I know a bunch of folks who would be Real Happy(tm) if you do that.
  503. # [13:09] <ashemedai> annevk: Ahh ok, it was a choice on your end. :)
  504. # [13:09] <annevk> MikeSmith: gsnedders worked on a part of that a long time ago
  505. # [13:09] <annevk> MikeSmith: but never finished it unfortunately
  506. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> interesting
  507. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> I kind of vaguely remember that now
  508. # [13:10] <annevk> ashemedai: ah yeah, it was, and I'm welcome back ;)
  509. # [13:10] <ashemedai> annevk: Hehe, what kind of work do you want to do though?
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  511. # [13:11] <jgraham> Here's a thing
  512. # [13:12] <jgraham> If I have a document with two framesets, is there a way to set an onload listener and tell *which* frameset loaded
  513. # [13:13] <annevk> jgraham: you mean two <frame>s?
  514. # [13:13] <jgraham> Like <frameset rows="*" onload="something"><frameset></frameset>
  515. # [13:13] <jgraham> I mean two framesets
  516. # [13:13] <jgraham> You can nest framesets
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  518. # [13:13] <annevk> sure, but they do not load anything
  519. # [13:14] <zcorpan> <frameset onload> reflects window.onload
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  521. # [13:14] <zcorpan> right?
  522. # [13:14] <jgraham> Oh wait
  523. # [13:14] <jgraham> I am misunderstanding this test
  524. # [13:14] <annevk> zcorpan: right
  525. # [13:15] <jgraham> I thought it was giving a load event on the frameset when all the subframes had loaded
  526. # [13:15] <jgraham> But it isn't
  527. # [13:15] <jgraham> Ignore me
  528. # [13:16] <jgraham> Right, I now have a less confusing, non-racy test
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  533. # [13:38] <Ms2ger> annevk, so did you leave because Facebook is going to buy Opera? :)
  534. # [13:39] <jgraham> Maybe facebook bought annevk
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  536. # [13:41] <zcorpan> he left. surely that means something.
  537. # [13:42] <icaaq> zcorpan: hehe
  538. # [13:43] <Ms2ger> Is he not yet allowed to disclose that he's going to work for facebook?
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  541. # [13:49] <Ms2ger> matjas, thanks
  542. # [13:49] <matjas> Ms2ger: I’ll leave a comment with some tests results in other browsers
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  548. # [14:19] <annevk> Ms2ger: I think those rumors started after I quit
  549. # [14:23] <Ms2ger> Aha!
  550. # [14:27] <annevk> the plot thickens? lol
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  556. # [14:37] <matjas> jgraham: “eval.apply({}, code) should throw EvalError” → no browser seems to do this; am I testing this incorrectly?
  557. # [14:40] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  558. # [14:40] <zcorpan> isn't EvalError unused?
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  568. # [15:02] <jgraham> matjas: I don't remember. Possibly everyone changed that behaviour?
  569. # [15:02] <matjas> jgraham: that’s good news, then
  570. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> do any engines other than gecko have support for the opus audio codec yet?
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  573. # [15:21] <zcorpan> hsivonen: MikeSmith: http://validator.keegan.st/
  574. # [15:21] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: wow
  575. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> that's pretty nice
  576. # [15:22] <matjas> woah i know this guy
  577. # [15:22] <MikeSmith> we should add this upstream
  578. # [15:24] <Ms2ger> assertThrows(function(){ worker.port.onmessage = 1 }, [], TypeError, {});
  579. # [15:24] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, sounds bogus to me ^
  580. # [15:25] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: it probably matched the spec when i wrote it
  581. # [15:25] <zcorpan> now it should set to null, right?
  582. # [15:25] <Ms2ger> Right
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  585. # [15:36] <matjas> wait, does testharness.js not have an equals() method that compares objects?
  586. # [15:37] <Ms2ger> How would you compare them?
  587. # [15:37] <matjas> iterate over all keys/values in both objects and see if there’s a difference
  588. # [15:37] <matjas> would cover most cases
  589. # [15:39] <matjas> QUnit does it like this: https://github.com/jquery/qunit/blob/b0c3da8d09b1dcbe5dd0877e27386f4b9e8050a1/qunit/qunit.js#L1343-1525
  590. # [15:40] <jgraham> matjas: Because there are a huge number of weird edge cases
  591. # [15:41] <jgraham> e.g. loops in the object graph
  592. # [15:41] <jgraham> and wanting to compare particular keys with something other than assert_equaks
  593. # [15:41] <jgraham> *assert_equals
  594. # [15:41] <matjas> jgraham: why not add a simple method and document that it won’t work for every possible use case?
  595. # [15:42] <jgraham> Because people will be surprised when it doesn't work for their use case
  596. # [15:43] <matjas> fair enough
  597. # [15:43] <jgraham> And because it's hard to get right even in simple cases
  598. # [15:43] <jgraham> and doesn't promote good quality tests (a single assert can only give a single error message)
  599. # [15:44] <jgraham> (what was your use case?)
  600. # [15:45] <matjas> comparing fn.arguments with the arguments object in a function (it should be ===)
  601. # [15:45] <matjas> i just use assert_equals(argumentsProp === argumentsObject, true) now
  602. # [15:45] <matjas> but in other cases that wouldn’t be possible
  603. # [15:45] <jgraham> But if they are === then assert_equals should work
  604. # [15:46] <jgraham> assert_equals(argumentsProp, argumentsObject)
  605. # [15:46] <matjas> oh, right
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  626. # [16:30] <matjas> do any of you know if this is a compatibility measure, or just a bug that all engines appear to have? https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2012-July/023888.html
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  632. # [16:33] <Ms2ger> Heh, people still care about acid2
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  634. # [16:34] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: var scrollTo = window.scrollTo; doesn't create a new variable binding
  635. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> In the meantime, I found https://bugs.ecmascript.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78#c0
  636. # [16:36] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: I believe var self = 1; would mutate Window.prototype.self to equal 1.
  637. # [16:37] <gsnedders> (I could be wrong, I've never been that happy with this stuff)
  638. # [16:38] <Ms2ger> That sounds rather unlikely
  639. # [16:38] <gsnedders> That's what I think.
  640. # [16:38] <jgraham> Huh, how would that work?
  641. # [16:38] <gsnedders> But you get a reference for "scrollTo", which is a reference to Window.prototype.scrollTo, and then put a value on that reference.
  642. # [16:38] <gsnedders> Or am I being stupid?
  643. # [16:39] <zcorpan> that sounds rather likely :-P
  644. # [16:39] <gsnedders> Yes, it does. :P
  645. # [16:39] <Ms2ger> No comment :)
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  648. # [16:48] <matjas> Ms2ger: heh, that’s the link from http://mathias.html5.org/specs/javascript/#top-level-var-statements
  649. # [16:49] <Ms2ger> \o/
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  654. # [16:56] <Ms2ger> matjas, <jorendorff> Ms2ger: if you look at ES5.1 §10.5, arguments object is created in steps 6-7; variables aren't bound until step 8
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  656. # [16:58] <matjas> Ms2ger: cool, filed it here: Thanks for confirming. I filed it here: https://bugs.ecmascript.org/show_bug.cgi?id=440.
  657. # [16:58] <matjas> whoops copypasta
  658. # [17:00] <Ms2ger> So the spec is correct, right?
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  660. # [17:01] <Ms2ger> Also...
  661. # [17:01] <Ms2ger> A test!
  662. # [17:01] <matjas> Ms2ger: the spec text is wrong, but the steps are right
  663. # [17:02] <Ms2ger> Oh, §10.6 disagrees with §10.5?
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  665. # [17:03] <matjas> unless i misread the text
  666. # [17:04] <matjas> “an `arguments` object is created unless […] the identifier `arguments` occurs as […] the Identifier of a VariableDeclaration […] contained in the function code.” seems to conflict with 10.5
  667. # [17:05] <Ms2ger> Looks like we all agree on that point :)
  668. # [17:11] <matjas> so in the case of function fn() { var arguments = undefined; return typeof arguments; }; fn(); // "undefined"
  669. # [17:11] <matjas> the `arguments` object is created in step 7
  670. # [17:11] <matjas> but then overwritten by the variable in step 8, iiuc
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  672. # [17:12] * boaz|away is now known as boaz
  673. # [17:13] <matjas> heh
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  675. # [17:15] <SimonSapin> I’m now passing Acid2 :) http://weasyprint.org/#acid2
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  677. # [17:16] <matjas> SimonSapin: nice work
  678. # [17:17] <SimonSapin> matjas: thanks
  679. # [17:18] <SimonSapin> We’re a bit late to the party but we only started 14 months ago
  680. # [17:21] * Parts: daurnimator (~daurnimat@unaffiliated/daurn)
  681. # [17:25] <Ms2ger> matjas, no, it's not overwritten due to 8.c
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  683. # [17:29] <matjas> Ms2ger: oic. but how is `var arguments;` different from `var arguments = undefined;`, then?
  684. # [17:29] <matjas> aren’t both VariableDeclarations?
  685. # [17:29] <Ms2ger> `var arguments = undefined;` is `var arguments; argument = undefined;`
  686. # [17:29] <Ms2ger> <jorendorff> function fn() { alert(typeof arguments); var arguments = undefined; alert(typeof arguments); }
  687. # [17:29] <Ms2ger> <jorendorff> alerts "object" then "undefined"
  688. # [17:29] <Ms2ger> <jorendorff> All the steps in 10.5 happen before the function body starts running.
  689. # [17:32] <Ms2ger> Is anyone else doing proxies, btw?
  690. # [17:33] * zcorpan awaits an xkcd about higgs
  691. # [17:33] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Not yet afaik
  692. # [17:34] <annevk> zcorpan: me too, I wonder if it'll be about the font :)
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  694. # [17:35] <matjas> Ms2ger: thanks! http://ecma-international.org/ecma-262/5.1/#sec-12.2 VariableDeclaration : Identifier vs. VariableDeclaration : Identifier Initialiser
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  699. # [17:42] <matjas> i guess i was thrown off by this: function fn() { alert(typeof arguments); var arguments; alert(typeof arguments); }; fn(); // alerts "object" twice
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  705. # [17:48] <Ms2ger> That's consistent with what I said, I think :)
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  711. # [18:14] <matjas> sure, it all makes sense in YOUR head!
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  713. # [18:16] <Ms2ger> :D
  714. # [18:19] <matjas> Ms2ger: http://ecma-international.org/ecma-262/5.1/#sec-12.2 says “Variables are initialised to `undefined` when created” — so I expected `var foo;` to set it to undefined upon creation
  715. # [18:19] <Ms2ger> But 8.c means there's no variable
  716. # [18:22] * Quits: raphc (~quassel@153-107-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  717. # [18:22] <matjas> …as varAlreadyDeclared is false, because the `arguments` object is already created at that point
  718. # [18:22] <matjas> so only when you do `[var] arguments = undefined` it overwrites that
  719. # [18:22] <matjas> FINALLY
  720. # [18:23] <matjas> I don’t know why I keep trying to read specs… not even all this Higgs boson talk makes me feel this stupid :)
  721. # [18:24] <matjas> /s/false/true/ a couple of messages back
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  724. # [18:26] <Ms2ger> ES is horrible, I can only do this thanks to a smart guy in another channel :)
  725. # [18:27] <jgraham> ES is just quite complicated
  726. # [18:27] <matjas> the spec is a bit weirder than other specs, too
  727. # [18:28] <jgraham> I'm not sure that any other programming language spec would be simpler
  728. # [18:28] <matjas> e.g. “If experValue is null or undefined, return (normal, empty, empty).” — what the hell is (normal, empty, empty)?
  729. # [18:28] <jgraham> That's defined elsewhere
  730. # [18:28] <matjas> undoubtedly. but in WHATWG/W3C specs you’d get a clickable link to the explanation/definition
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  732. # [18:29] <matjas> stuff like that helps make things a bit more n00b-friendly
  733. # [18:29] <jgraham> http://es5.github.com/#x8.9
  734. # [18:29] <matjas> although i can see how that is not the goal of any spec
  735. # [18:30] <jgraham> One major problem with ECMAScript is that it doesn't use HTML natively so obvious features like hypoerlinks of definitions are missing
  736. # [18:30] <jgraham> e.g. if that was phrased If experValue is null or undefined, return the [completion type] (normal, empty, empty).", with the bit in square brackets being a link it would be a lot easier to work with
  737. # [18:31] <matjas> jgraham: exactly
  738. # [18:31] * matjas ♥ Anolis
  739. # [18:33] <Ms2ger> :)
  740. # [18:35] <gsnedders> matjas: We love you too.
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  753. # [19:14] <matjas> Ms2ger: ask jorendorff to accept https://github.com/jorendorff/es-spec-html/pull/8 please
  754. # [19:14] * matjas wants to delete fork
  755. # [19:17] <Ms2ger> Breaking news: CSSWG is renaming flexbox properties again
  756. # [19:21] <Ms2ger> ... I guess that wasn't a surprise to anybody
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  758. # [19:32] <shepazu> krijnh: hey, when did your IRC logs change? they look like they've lost flagging functionality, or is that just me?
  759. # [19:33] <Ms2ger> Just you
  760. # [19:33] <zewt> been missing for me for a while too
  761. # [19:35] <shepazu> it's weird… and all of the comments by Ms2ger are now rendered in white text on a black background, with little unicode skulls at the end of each line
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  763. # [19:36] <Ms2ger> Oh really ? ☠
  764. # [19:37] <shepazu> took you a while to find that skull, Ms2ger, I'm disappointed :)
  765. # [19:37] * Ms2ger patpats shepazu
  766. # [19:38] <shepazu> srsly, do you have to be one of the in-crowd, or signed in, or has the functionality just be removed or broken?
  767. # [19:39] <gsnedders> WFM, and it doesn't have my nick saved or anything
  768. # [19:40] <zewt> definitely doesn't work for me
  769. # [19:40] <gsnedders> Weird.
  770. # [19:41] <zewt> in ff13 or chrome 19
  771. # [19:41] <shepazu> gsnedders: I'm on FF13
  772. # [19:42] <shepazu> gsnedders: you can flag something, and it persists when you reload? it's not just the highlighted line behavior?
  773. # [19:42] <zewt> it doesn't even give me the UI to do it
  774. # [19:43] <gsnedders> shepazu: I didn\t try reloading.
  775. # [19:43] <gsnedders> Why would I do something so radical?
  776. # [19:44] <shepazu> gsnedders: well, you are an iconoclast, I thought it would be second nature to doubt
  777. # [19:44] <gsnedders> Right, persisted here, at least.
  778. # [19:44] <shepazu> zewt: same here
  779. # [19:44] <gsnedders> You should be using Opera, obviously. :)
  780. # [19:45] <shepazu> I guess sgsnedders is one of the in-crowd :)
  781. # [19:45] <shepazu> zewt: … well, I'm sorry...
  782. # [19:45] <shepazu> you didn't make the cut
  783. # [19:45] <gsnedders> shepazu: I guess not, given krijnh has no way to tell me from anyone else. :)
  784. # [19:48] <zewt> looks like something broken on the php side, since it's just not outputting the span that the script is looking for
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  792. # [20:05] <odinho> I thought we had to use usercss and stuff.
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  822. # [21:12] <jgraham> shepazu: You aren't trying to flag something from not today, are you?
  823. # [21:12] <jgraham> krijnh changed it so that flagging gets disabled after the day is no longer today
  824. # [21:13] <shepazu> ahhhh
  825. # [21:13] <shepazu> why's that?
  826. # [21:13] * The_Kingdutch is now known as Kingdutch
  827. # [21:13] <Philip`> For caching reasons, I thought
  828. # [21:13] <Philip`> (making all archived logs be static HTML instead of running slow PHP each time)
  829. # [21:14] <Philip`> though I may just be imagining remembering that
  830. # [21:14] <jgraham> Oh, I thought it was just so that people living in silicon valley would have to try double hard to get things in yellow
  831. # [21:14] <jgraham> Since the cutoff is halfway through the day there
  832. # [21:14] <shepazu> oh, that's too bad, usually flagging doesn't take place the same day, I'd have thought
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  834. # [21:14] <jgraham> If it was me I would have let things be flagged for a few days
  835. # [21:15] <jgraham> But it's not, and I don't have to pay the bandwidth so...
  836. # [21:16] <shepazu> I'm looking at improving the W3C IRC bot stuff
  837. # [21:17] * Quits: jarib (~jarib@unaffiliated/jarib) (Excess Flood)
  838. # [21:17] <shepazu> including something like krijn's logs
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  841. # [21:30] <Philip`> Is there really no decent off-the-shelf IRC logging software that could be used?
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  843. # [21:36] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
  844. # [21:36] <jgraham> It does sound like a solved problem, doesn't it
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  862. # [22:47] <annevk> jgraham: it's not bandwidth, it's performance
  863. # [22:47] <annevk> jgraham: but maybe krijnh is willing to tweak it to make it possible to change it for the last three days or so
  864. # [22:47] <annevk> jgraham: dunno how flexible the setup is
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  872. # [23:12] <gsnedders> Fairly agressive caching could help without making it immutable.
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  876. # [23:28] <annevk> webkit-dev is amusing
  877. # [23:28] <annevk> Intel guy #1: Look, user timing API implementation!
  878. # [23:28] <annevk> Intel guy #2: Nice feature!
  879. # [23:29] <annevk> </thread>
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  888. # [23:41] <guzzlefry> Is it preferable to set image width and height in CSS or the actual HTML?
  889. # [23:42] <annevk> guzzlefry: if you set them in CSS you might as well not set them
  890. # [23:42] <guzzlefry> Why is that?
  891. # [23:42] <annevk> guzzlefry: because by the time the style sheet is loaded the images are prolly too
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  893. # [23:43] <guzzlefry> ah okay, thanks
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  896. # [23:49] <jgraham> annevk: Could make the highlights a seperate JSON file and applied in client script so that you always serve static files and the only dynamic bits are in response to POSTs that update the highlighting JSON
  897. # [23:49] <annevk> I'm sure krijnh has plenty of free time :)
  898. # [23:50] <annevk> Which reminds me, how is updating pimpmyspec.net going?
  899. # [23:50] <jgraham> Sure, I realise it is work
  900. # [23:51] <jgraham> Not at all. The main missing feature is the xrefs which I don't really know how to implement
  901. # [23:55] <zewt> annevk: there's no way there's a performance problem with toggling highlights in an IRC log, heh
  902. # [23:55] <zewt> unless there's some catastrophically bad code involved
  903. # [23:57] <annevk> it's not about the highlighting itself
  904. # [23:57] <annevk> it's about generating the pages
  905. # [23:58] <zewt> it's not like there are thousands of highlights being toggled a second, heh
  906. # Session Close: Thu Jul 05 00:00:00 2012

The end :)