/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-07-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jul 10 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <TabAtkins_> It would be nice if we didn't do so yet. ^_^
  4. # [00:03] <Hixie> anyone know if any non-chrome browsers implement seamless="" yet?
  5. # [00:04] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: any suggestions on what i should make the intrinsic width of shrinkwrapping seamless iframes?
  6. # [00:04] <TabAtkins_> I assume you dont' want to expose the min-content width of the contained document.
  7. # [00:04] <TabAtkins_> So... probably 300px.
  8. # [00:05] <Hixie> i think the ideal width to expose would be the canvas shrink-wrap width, but that seems impossible to define in a way that isn't sometimes impossible to calculate
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  10. # [00:06] <TabAtkins_> The canvas doesn't have a shrink-wrap width, unless you mean the document's shrink-wrap width. That's always possible to calculate, but it will expose data about the document.
  11. # [00:06] <Hixie> exposing data is fine, these are always same-origin
  12. # [00:06] <Hixie> we're already exposing the height
  13. # [00:07] <TabAtkins_> Oh, okay. Then yeah, just get the document's own intrinsic width. That's always well-defined.
  14. # [00:07] <Hixie> fair enough
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  16. # [00:08] <Hixie> (what should i reference?)
  17. # [00:08] <TabAtkins_> CSS 2.1.
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  19. # [00:09] <Hixie> i don't see anything in css2.1 about documents having intrinsic dimensions, unless i'm missing something.
  20. # [00:09] <Hixie> there's stuff about the root element, but that depends on the viewport
  21. # [00:09] <Hixie> and it's the viewport i'm trying to size
  22. # [00:10] <TabAtkins_> You want the fit-content size of the root element.
  23. # [00:10] * Joins: gkellogg__ (~gregg@38.127.199.123)
  24. # [00:10] <TabAtkins_> fit-content depends on min-content, max-content, and the available space, none of which are dependent on the viewport size.
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  26. # [00:11] <TabAtkins_> Though, hm, actually the available space would depend on the viewport size naively.
  27. # [00:11] <TabAtkins_> So instead, just use the definition directly - max(min-content, min(max-content, available space for the iframe))
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  30. # [00:12] <Hixie> "available space for the iframe" is undefined in this case, i think (we're talking about out-of-flow or inline-blocks iframes)
  31. # [00:12] <TabAtkins_> No, it's well-defined. It's the width of the iframe's containing block.
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  35. # [00:13] <Hixie> (and fit-content doesn't seem to be in css2.1)
  36. # [00:13] <TabAtkins_> Which, in the worst case, is the width of the iframe's viewport.
  37. # [00:13] <TabAtkins_> No, it's called "shrinkwrap width" or something in 2.1. fit-content is defined in Writing Modes currently.
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  39. # [00:13] <Hixie> oh. css2.1 doesn't define the shrink-wrap width. :-)
  40. # [00:14] <Hixie> that's why i was asking in the first place :-)
  41. # [00:14] <TabAtkins_> (By "iframe's viewport" I mean the viewport of the document the iframe is in, not the viewport it defines for its contained document.)
  42. # [00:14] <Hixie> (sure)
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  45. # [00:15] <TabAtkins_> Okay, then refer to Writing Modes, say that it's the fit-content width of the document's root element, except with the available space of the iframe used in place of the available space in the algorithm.
  46. # [00:15] <Hixie> even if i do use the css2.1 underdefined "shrink-to-fit" width, that still won't really work, i think.
  47. # [00:15] <Hixie> because if the document just consists of positioned elements, the shrink-to-fit width will be 0
  48. # [00:15] <TabAtkins_> Yes.
  49. # [00:15] <TabAtkins_> That's a problem?
  50. # [00:16] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
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  52. # [00:16] <Hixie> well for the height i avoid the problem by fixing the width and using the canvas boundary extents or some such
  53. # [00:16] <TabAtkins_> Why are you going to that much trouble?
  54. # [00:16] <TabAtkins_> Just let it fall down to 0x0.
  55. # [00:17] <Hixie> that seems... less than ideal
  56. # [00:17] <TabAtkins_> They can set width/height on either the iframe, the document's root, or something else in there if they want.
  57. # [00:17] <TabAtkins_> You're trying to be smarter than necessary. ^_^
  58. # [00:18] <Hixie> story of my life :-)
  59. # [00:18] <Hixie> i'm thinking of just punting and making it 300x150 if they're floating/positioning the iframe
  60. # [00:18] <Hixie> or 300xresulting-height
  61. # [00:18] <TabAtkins_> <iframe seamless> is supposed to act like you just transplanted the document's root into the outer document.
  62. # [00:18] <TabAtkins_> So just do that.
  63. # [00:19] <Hixie> yeah, that's fair enough
  64. # [00:19] <TabAtkins_> If the inner document is all positioned, shrug, its root will be 0x0, just like a container element in the same circumstances.
  65. # [00:19] <Hixie> ok
  66. # [00:20] <Velmont> Hehe. Seems easy enough to relate to.
  67. # [00:24] * Joins: isherman (isherman@nat/google/x-zlkwshmlqqnzmpcw)
  68. # [00:26] <ojan> Hixie: i agree with TabAtkins_. i'm pretty sure that's roughly what webkit does
  69. # [00:26] <ojan> Hixie: although i just reviewed the code. eseidel (on #webkit) wrote the code...he might know better.
  70. # [00:27] <ojan> making float do the wrong thing because of the edge case of a document only containing positioned elements would be a shame
  71. # [00:28] <Hixie> webkit seems to do weird things
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  74. # [00:29] <Hixie> e.g. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1655
  75. # [00:29] <Hixie> why scrollbars?
  76. # [00:29] <Velmont> film at 11?
  77. # [00:29] <Hixie> (with overflow:hidden: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1656 )
  78. # [00:30] * Hixie joins a CG that has published some FSA specs to see what the UI looks like when you have published FSA specs
  79. # [00:30] * arunranga is now known as otherarun
  80. # [00:30] <Hixie> (prepare for the linked data community to think i've gone over to their side...)
  81. # [00:30] <ojan> Hixie: lol...it's a bug...there's some crazy hackery w scrollbars and seamless iframes
  82. # [00:30] <Hixie> ojan: k
  83. # [00:30] * Quits: otherarun (~otherarun@pool-71-125-201-161.nycmny.east.verizon.net) (Client Quit)
  84. # [00:31] <Hixie> aw, man, i can't join the damn group without going through my AC rep
  85. # [00:31] <ojan> Hixie: i'll file these. hopefully eseidel will fix them. :)
  86. # [00:31] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  87. # [00:31] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: I know, it's so annoying. >_<
  88. # [00:31] <ojan> Hixie: anyways...the 0x0 behavior is what a regular element would do...so i don't see why it's problematic for a seamless iframe to do that
  89. # [00:32] <Hixie> ojan: k
  90. # [00:32] <hober> Hixie: I'm sure tvr would be thrilled that you've developed an interest in linked data :)
  91. # [00:32] <Hixie> yeah but not if i wanted to leave the group 5 minutes later :-)
  92. # [00:32] <hober> heh
  93. # [00:32] <Hixie> is anyone here either a member of a CG that has published an FSA or an individual member who isn't a member company employee who could do me a favour?
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  95. # [00:33] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: do I qualify?
  96. # [00:33] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: possibly :-)
  97. # [00:33] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: i'm trying to get a screenshot of the page that lets you sign on to the FSA deed
  98. # [00:34] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: once you're a member of teh group, it should be either on this page: http://www.w3.org/community/json-ld/
  99. # [00:34] <Hixie> or this page: http://www.w3.org/community/json-ld/spec/22/commitments
  100. # [00:34] <Hixie> oh i guess i could just create a bogus account for testing purposes
  101. # [00:35] <Hixie> except i bet w3c has a human in that loop
  102. # [00:35] <Hixie> so that wouldn't work either
  103. # [00:36] <JonathanNeal> Sorry.
  104. # [00:36] <JonathanNeal> I saw the "Join this group" button, but if I can't see the agreement without a human approving something, meh.
  105. # [00:36] <Hixie> oh i don't think you need a human to approve joining
  106. # [00:36] <Hixie> unless you don't have an account
  107. # [00:37] <Hixie> in which case don't worry
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  110. # [00:38] <JonathanNeal> I definitely have some kind of account with this site, I used it to join a css group.
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  145. # [01:33] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: For <iframe seamless>, I wonder if it the inner document should use the outer document's information for viewport-related media queries.
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  147. # [01:33] <Velmont> Opera has something in the speeddails there. Never looked at it though.
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  149. # [01:37] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: possibly, yeah. file a bug?
  150. # [01:37] <TabAtkins_> Related: Does inline SVG create a sub-document with its own viewport size?
  151. # [01:38] * TabAtkins_ doesn't want to hunt for the relevant details to try and answer the question himself.
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  157. # [01:49] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: svg always kinda confuses me on this front
  158. # [01:49] <Hixie> it used to be very poorly defined
  159. # [01:49] <Hixie> now it's defined, but i'm not 100% sure where
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  165. # [02:02] <TabAtkins_> Ah, cool, dbaron already filed the bug about seamless and MQ.
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  175. # [02:21] <dbaron> TabAtkins_, actually, Hixie filed it for me (as I noticed after posting to www-style)
  176. # [02:23] <TabAtkins_> Ah, heh.
  177. # [02:24] <TabAtkins_> Well, as long as it's filed, I'm happy.
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  264. # [07:00] <zewt> heh youtube seems to be out to give <video> a boost by switching to hopelessly broken buffering behavior
  265. # [07:00] <zewt> now it won't buffer more than 30 seconds ahead, which means i ... can't watch things
  266. # [07:00] <zewt> (unless i feel like watching it in 30 second chunks)
  267. # [07:12] <Hixie> you can't watch online?
  268. # [07:13] <zewt> it won't stream fast enough to watch it
  269. # [07:14] <zewt> normally i'd just pause it and let it buffer to full in the background ... but now it stops buffering after the buffer is 30s ahead of the play position, which broke that
  270. # [07:16] <Hixie> it doesn't buffer fast enough even if it's playing?
  271. # [07:18] <zewt> wow, the html5 player is doing it too (capping the buffer); wonder if that's something they're doing in script (can you even do that?) or if FF is doing the same thing
  272. # [07:18] <Hixie> i would assume it's the server
  273. # [07:19] <zewt> oh wait, the html5 one kept buffering (eventually)
  274. # [07:19] <zewt> (the flash one stops after 30s read-ahead and stays stopped indefinitely)
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  276. # [07:22] <zewt> (the html5 one working is what I expected--i suppose you could probably jump the hoops to cripple prebuffering like that with <video> if you wanted to badly enough, though)
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  304. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> has anybody written tests for CSS animations?
  305. # [08:59] * MikeSmith finds http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/microsoft/incoming/CSS3/animations/
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  327. # [09:59] <matjas> lol @ XHTML 1.0 Strict
  328. # [10:00] <odinho> Yes, could do that once every day.
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  391. # [12:39] <SimonSapin> border-collapse with colspan/rowspan is "funny" ... http://dabblet.com/gist/3082417 (compare webkit and gecko)
  392. # [12:40] <zcorpan> firefox 16 will be the unprefixing release, huh?
  393. # [12:41] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  394. # [12:41] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: opera has a third rendering :-)
  395. # [12:41] * Ms2ger looks for other things to unprefix
  396. # [12:41] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: yes, I just checked
  397. # [12:42] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: what's correct per spec? does it say?
  398. # [12:42] <SimonSapin> the spec doesn’t say anything …
  399. # [12:42] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, Ha. Ha. Ha.
  400. # [12:43] <SimonSapin> I’ll just do whatever is more convenient in WeasyPrint
  401. # [12:43] <zcorpan> anyone have ie to check?
  402. # [12:43] <zcorpan> i bet it has its own take on it
  403. # [12:44] <SimonSapin> I don’t even what to bother reporting this to www-style, nothing’s gonna happen until someone makes css3-tables in a few decades
  404. # [12:45] <zcorpan> would be nice to have issues documented somewhere though when that someone wants to take it
  405. # [12:46] <zcorpan> maybe a wiki page is better than emails to www-style
  406. # [12:48] <SimonSapin> I think that CSSWG has both a wiki and a bugzilla for tracking issues
  407. # [12:49] <zcorpan> heycam|away: shouldn't webidl drop the "must have a length" if ES already requires length to be present?
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  409. # [12:58] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, and Tracker
  410. # [12:59] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: indeed
  411. # [13:00] <Ms2ger> Might be useful to ask MikeSmith to create a bugzilla component for tabkes
  412. # [13:00] <Ms2ger> tables*
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  414. # [13:03] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: wrote about this to www-style, I’ll leave the rest to the WG
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  432. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: CSS tables?
  433. # [14:05] <MikeSmith> btw, I added a bunch of CSS features to http://platform.html5.org/
  434. # [14:05] <MikeSmith> lots more green flags there now
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  437. # [14:13] <zcorpan> i love how http://html5please.com/#WebSockets recommends disabling websocket for safari but at the same time using Flash Sockets
  438. # [14:13] <AryehGregor> Is there really no Array.remove() or something in JS?
  439. # [14:14] <AryehGregor> arr.splice(i, 1) seems a bit abstruse compared to arr.remove(i) or such.
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  474. # [15:30] <kennyluck> CSS Undefined Module
  475. # [15:30] <Ms2ger> Do you mean CSS 2.1?
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  482. # [15:43] <kennyluck> yeah :)
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  516. # [16:44] <zcorpan> what's the procedure of publishing a Final Specification?
  517. # [16:45] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se) (Quit: tomasf)
  518. # [16:46] <Ms2ger> Sacrifice a goat
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  520. # [16:47] <zcorpan> :-(
  521. # [16:47] <zewt> declare the spec dead?
  522. # [16:48] <zcorpan> i thought it was possible to publish Final Specifications several times
  523. # [16:49] <zewt> i thought that was just Final Fantasy
  524. # [16:49] <Ms2ger> I think that's the idea
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  526. # [16:49] <Ms2ger> Maybe AryehGregor knows
  527. # [16:49] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's my understanding.
  528. # [16:49] <AryehGregor> A Final Specification is a frozen snapshot.
  529. # [16:49] <AryehGregor> But a CG can publish however many it wants.
  530. # [16:50] <AryehGregor> And/or continue work on the specs after forking them.
  531. # [16:50] <AryehGregor> I imagine the procedure for publishing a Final Specification is "Talk to Ian Jacobs, he'll be very excited because no one's done it yet".
  532. # [16:50] <zcorpan> should whatcg publish FSs for all the drafts (and one for html)?
  533. # [16:51] <zcorpan> i see whatcg doesn't list html under current drafts
  534. # [16:51] <zcorpan> but i thought the purpose was to publish html as FS at some point
  535. # [16:52] <Ms2ger> The purpose was the patent policy
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  537. # [16:52] <Ms2ger> And I thought that happened earlier than FS
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  539. # [16:55] <zcorpan> well we haven't published a draft either so i guess the CLA doesn't apply for html yet
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  541. # [16:56] <zcorpan> i haven't read the CLA and FSA in detail yet
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  548. # [17:02] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/community/reports/reqs/ copyright boilerplate for FS says to link to https://www.w3.org/community/about/agreements/fsa/ but that redirects to fsa-deed, i guess final/ was intended
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  550. # [17:04] <zcorpan> also uses https on some links but they seem to redirect to http
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  565. # [17:32] <zcorpan> fast ij is fast
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  570. # [17:45] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, the patent policy before FS only applies to contributors, I think. At FS, everyone is invited to agree to license their patents on the subject matter, although it's optional. (I think.)
  571. # [17:45] <AryehGregor> I guess I should publish a FS of the editing spec.
  572. # [17:45] <AryehGregor> But if the WHATCG wants to test the waters first, please be my guest. :)
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  653. # [19:56] <matjas> annevk: re: HTTP & data URLs & same-origin: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#data:-urls-and-http seems to allow it
  654. # [19:56] <matjas> annevk: couldn’t find it in the HTML spec
  655. # [19:57] <matjas> annevk: or did I misunderstand that section ^?
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  658. # [20:02] <quinnirill> hey everyone, I have a question about the XHR2
  659. # [20:02] <quinnirill> is Anne here?
  660. # [20:02] <zewt> that's an easy question, nope
  661. # [20:02] <quinnirill> hehe
  662. # [20:03] <quinnirill> ok, I'll try again later then, thanks
  663. # [20:03] <TabAtkins_> Anne's on vacation, except when he checks in.
  664. # [20:03] <quinnirill> ahh
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  666. # [20:03] <quinnirill> hmm, I'll just drop this in to boil now then
  667. # [20:04] <quinnirill> it looks to me like the current spec doesn't have any support for streaming, am I correct? has this been discussed?
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  669. # [20:08] <quinnirill> the thing is, we're building these JS audio decoders and *not* streaming would be horrible UX as potential use cases can include 1h+ songs and even for 3m+ songs downloading the whole song before starting playback is usually unacceptable
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  672. # [20:09] <quinnirill> so for now, we're using partial requests, but that's hogging bandwidth like a... well, hog.
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  674. # [20:09] <quinnirill> I was wondering if there's a better solution cooking and whether we could maybe contribute ideas
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  676. # [20:10] <zewt> iirc you can access arraybuffer while loading to get the data so far (never tried it/don't know if it's implemented/might be wrong)
  677. # [20:10] <zewt> don't think that lets you actually stream (eg. discard data as you read to read an unbounded stream)
  678. # [20:12] <quinnirill> zewt: ok, I'll try that and see if it would be good enough, thanks!
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  692. # [20:29] <Hixie> i don't suppose we can just drop xslt support from the platform?
  693. # [20:29] <TabAtkins_> I'm cool with this.
  694. # [20:29] * Hixie stares at hsivonen's scary-looking feedback regarding how readyState should work with xslt
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  696. # [20:32] <Hixie> oh hey, i already have a section that basically says "i give up on xslt, but in the absence of xslt defining this stuff, here's some handwaving suggestions"
  697. # [20:32] * Hixie adds more to it
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  725. # [21:39] <zewt> gar does google really not index w3 tickets
  726. # [21:39] <zewt> site:https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/ 1 result
  727. # [21:43] <TabAtkins_> view-source:https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/robots.txt
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  729. # [21:43] <TabAtkins_> So, no.
  730. # [21:44] <zewt> (obviously, the real question was "why does w3's tracker have a completely BS robots.txt")
  731. # [21:45] <zewt> that's beyond absurd ... even for the w3c
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  735. # [21:50] <gsnedders> jwalden: __proto__ is in Carakan!
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  737. # [21:56] <jwalden> yay!
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  740. # [21:57] <Hixie> zewt: bugzilla in general disables robots because of load, iirc
  741. # [21:58] <Hixie> also the real robots.txt that matters is https://www.w3.org/robots.txt
  742. # [21:58] <Velmont> They should learn it some caching :-)
  743. # [21:58] <Hixie> (a robots.txt in a subdirectory doesn't work)
  744. # [21:58] <Velmont> Do some varnish magic.
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  749. # [22:06] <jarek> which spec should I be looking at to get the list of all possible color names?
  750. # [22:06] <gsnedders> css3-color
  751. # [22:06] <jarek> SVG? CSS2.1? CSS3 Color module?
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  754. # [22:06] <jarek> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-iccprof
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  756. # [22:06] <jarek> but it's from 2001 :/
  757. # [22:07] <gsnedders> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/ is a REC from last year
  758. # [22:07] <jarek> cool, thanks
  759. # [22:07] <TabAtkins_> jarek: If you want to use the list for something, I have a few versions of the list in JSON.
  760. # [22:08] <jarek> TabAtkins_: I need a list of all color names that could be used with "fill" SVG property
  761. # [22:08] <jarek> TabAtkins_: how many colors are on your list? 147?
  762. # [22:09] <TabAtkins_> In browsers, 'fill' takes every single CSS color, including ones that SVG doesn't officially define.
  763. # [22:09] <TabAtkins_> All of which are defined in css3-color, that gsnedders linked to.
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  765. # [22:11] <jarek> TabAtkins_: css3-color seems to contains exactly the same colors as SVG 1.1
  766. # [22:11] <TabAtkins_> Yes.
  767. # [22:12] <TabAtkins_> The colors haven't changed for a decade.
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  770. # [22:14] <jarek> there is gray and gray which are basically the same color :/
  771. # [22:15] <jarek> I mean gray and grey
  772. # [22:16] <TabAtkins_> Yes, they're identical. The named colors list is *retarded*.
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  774. # [22:17] <jarek> I assume that decision to include both gray and grey on the list was purely political?
  775. # [22:17] <Hixie> probably dates back to X11
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  779. # [22:21] <jarek> I didn't know that X11 was designed by a committee
  780. # [22:21] <jarek> it looks more like addition from W3C
  781. # [22:21] <gsnedders> Totally backwards compatible, most of it never used.
  782. # [22:22] <TabAtkins_> Not political. The X11 list was copied from an old rgb.txt file that someone had.
  783. # [22:22] <TabAtkins_> Someone on that Linux distro decided that that particular list was worthwhile.
  784. # [22:22] <TabAtkins_> I respectfully submit that that distro maintainer was stupid.
  785. # [22:23] <Hixie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X11_color_names suggests it's even more complicated than i feared
  786. # [22:23] <Hixie> looks like netscape was on the path of blame
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  789. # [22:26] <jarek> "Some browsers like Netscape navigator insisted on an ‘a’ in any ‘Gray’ except for ‘Light Grey’."
  790. # [22:27] <gavinc> I this mess starts in the 19th century :P
  791. # [22:28] <gavinc> http://grammarist.com/spelling/gray-grey/
  792. # [22:29] <gsnedders> There's 50 Shades of Grey, but only 1 Shade of Gray.
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  831. # Session Close: Wed Jul 11 00:00:00 2012

The end :)