/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-07-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 11 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  23. # [00:40] <hober> It's that time of year again when I post in some WBS surveys and see if anyone cares enough to fill them out.
  24. # [00:40] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
  25. # [00:40] <hober> Specifically, https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-200-objection-poll/ and https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-189-objection-poll/
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  37. # [00:49] <zewt> TabAtkins_: WS post might have mixed up quotees a little
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  39. # [00:53] <zewt> were there two threads about that same topic? could have sworn I replied to this already
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  41. # [00:54] <zewt> must have been a discard
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  114. # [04:13] <Hixie> zewt: actually scripts _can_ detect the conditions you mention for when the network comes back -- they just need to listen for the 'online' event
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  121. # [04:37] <zewt> Hixie: assuming transient issues (eg. ip changes) ever make it consider itself "offline"
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  123. # [04:38] <zewt> i really don't understand the notion that pages should have to deal with this individually, when so many other web APIs go to efforts to eliminate uncommon error states and make things just work
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  127. # [04:44] <Hixie> zewt: it's possible we need to change the design. so far people have just been saying "we should slightly change this api for this one case", not "we need to rethink the basic design of the api"
  128. # [04:49] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  129. # [04:49] <zewt> simply saying that reconnection behavior, at least for most users, will be done much better if the UA handles it, and that we'll have a lot of buggy and badly-behaved apps if not
  130. # [04:50] <zewt> certainly doesn't seem like a huge change, no
  131. # [04:51] <Hixie> i don't know how big a change it would be since i haven't examined the implications of a fundamental design change
  132. # [04:51] <Hixie> sometimes one can change the basic idea of the feature without actually changing the API at all
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  134. # [04:51] <Hixie> other times, it simply makes no sense to even have a similar API with a change of design philosophy
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  136. # [04:54] <zewt> i havn't looked at it in depth either, but roughly i'd expect it to look equivalent to if it still only retried once, but it just took a long time (eg. it'd sit in CONNECTING for a long time)
  137. # [04:55] <zewt> (don't really know if it'd need to expose more than that)
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  139. # [04:57] <zewt> (i should have said I don't expect it to be a big script-visible change)
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  144. # [05:11] <Hixie> zewt: i don't know, but e.g. maybe the protocol needs other features, maybe there needs to be attributes exposing or controlling it, i dunno
  145. # [05:13] <zewt> yep
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  286. # [11:20] <annevk> matjas: the intention is to allow it
  287. # [11:21] <annevk> matjas: not sure anything defines it as being same-origin though
  288. # [11:21] <annevk> matjas: but UAs are starting to implement it that way
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  306. # [12:23] <annevk> matjas: hmm yeah so we need to make that more explicit somehow
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  308. # [12:24] <matjas> yes please. if it wasn’t for the non-normative “note” i wouldn’t have even mentioned it
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  312. # [12:26] <matjas> annevk: want me to file a CORS spec bug?
  313. # [12:26] <annevk> it's not a bug in CORS
  314. # [12:26] <annevk> it's an XHR bug
  315. # [12:26] <matjas> it doesn’t just apply to XHR though
  316. # [12:26] <matjas> data URL images should be same-origin too
  317. # [12:27] <matjas> or is that case already covered elsewhere?
  318. # [12:27] <annevk> "If the XMLHttpRequest origin and the request URL are same origin" needs to expand to also include request URLs whose scheme is data:
  319. # [12:27] <annevk> matjas: that is covered elsewhere at the moment
  320. # [12:28] <annevk> matjas: maybe we can flip things around and only special case data URLs where allowing them to be same-origin would be harmful, but that would require working through all the same-origin checks in the platform
  321. # [12:28] <annevk> matjas: it's not okay for instance for shared workers
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  324. # [12:30] <annevk> somehow blob URLs are defined to be same origin with the script that created them
  325. # [12:30] <annevk> that prolly works
  326. # [12:31] <annevk> but that cannot work for data URLs
  327. # [12:33] * Quits: volkmar (~volkmar@gentoo/developer/volkmar) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  328. # [12:34] <annevk> matjas: I can fix the XHR bug easily enough sometime later, but maybe we should look at data URLs again in various contexts to see if updating the same-origin definition and special casing shared workers would be enough
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  331. # [12:41] <annevk> hmm so XHR -> cross-origin -> data URL would still need to be cross-origin
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  333. # [12:43] <annevk> so yeah, it would kind of depend on where we special case it how such scenarios would work
  334. # [12:43] <annevk> e.g. with my proposal XHR -> same-origin -> data URL would fail
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  339. # [12:55] <cheron> What is the intention of the "challenge" attribute of the HTML 5 keygen element? Are there any use cases/examples?
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  341. # [12:58] <annevk> cheron: it influences the generated signature
  342. # [12:58] <annevk> cheron: the use case is mainly supporting some legacy sites that use <keygen>
  343. # [12:58] <annevk> cheron: so maybe we should move the element to the "obsolete" section
  344. # [13:02] <cheron> annevk: ty, this helps me much with my bachelor's thesis
  345. # [13:02] <annevk> what's the subject of the thesis?
  346. # [13:03] <cheron> Security in HTML5
  347. # [13:03] <smaug____> uh, we should definitely move keygen to obsolete
  348. # [13:03] <annevk> cheron: cool
  349. # [13:03] <annevk> smaug____: file a bug ;)
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  351. # [13:05] <smaug____> whaat, keygen has got some new properties in HTML spec
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  354. # [13:10] <cheron> smaug__: if you file a bug can you send me the link, pls
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  356. # [13:12] <cheron> annevk: yeah, pretty interesting
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  369. # [13:59] * zcorpan sends an email to site-comments about robots.txt
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  371. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: what's up with robots.txt?
  372. # [14:03] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/site-comments/2012Jul/0007.html
  373. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> I can fix the dvcs.w3.org one myself
  374. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> what should it have?
  375. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> the www.w3.org one I'll leave up to others
  376. # [14:05] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: is don't see any reason to not use `User-agent: *\nAllow: *` but maybe there is
  377. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I know they have had serious problems in the past with bots crawling dev.w3.org
  378. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> creating massive load
  379. # [14:08] <zcorpan> bratell just had issues finding the HTML Editing APIs spec because of this, and i found out yesterday that the quirks mode spec isn't visible in google
  380. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> yeah that's not good
  381. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> I will talk to the systems team about it
  382. # [14:08] <zcorpan> thanks!
  383. # [14:09] <zcorpan> the /Bugs/ thing was someone complaining here in #whatwg the other day
  384. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> OK
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  533. # [18:08] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/bookmarklets/w3c-cg-spec-checker.js
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  545. # [18:26] <ashemedai> Yay, I get to annoy the Opera guys again
  546. # [18:28] <zcorpan> matjas: i have filed a spec bug about CORS-enabled fetch to consider data: to be same-origin
  547. # [18:29] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17461
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  631. # [20:39] <smaug____> rniwa: values from dictionaries are read when the object is passed to some native method
  632. # [20:39] <smaug____> so I don't quite understand your email about the problem
  633. # [20:39] <rniwa> smaug____: well, you can then modify those properties
  634. # [20:39] <smaug____> so?
  635. # [20:39] <rniwa> smaug____: so you can do undoManager.transact({execute: function () { this.undo = ~; }})
  636. # [20:40] <rniwa> smaug____: so my point is that it's not a problem specific to having DOMTransaction interface
  637. # [20:40] <smaug____> this.undo = wouldn't do anything sane
  638. # [20:40] <rniwa> smaug____: what do you mean?
  639. # [20:40] <rniwa> smaug____: it'll do something extremely sane
  640. # [20:40] <smaug____> I mean, it would put .undo property to 'this'
  641. # [20:40] <smaug____> this wouldn't be the dictionary object
  642. # [20:40] <rniwa> smaug____: yeah but "this" is the dictionary object!
  643. # [20:41] <rniwa> smaug____: since execute is supposed to be called on the dictionary object passed into.
  644. # [20:41] <smaug____> no
  645. # [20:41] <rniwa> transact
  646. # [20:41] <smaug____> execute is a property of the dictionary
  647. # [20:41] <rniwa> smaug____: why no?
  648. # [20:42] <smaug____> and stored separately
  649. # [20:42] <rniwa> smaug____: yes.
  650. # [20:42] <smaug____> when passed to native
  651. # [20:42] <rniwa> smaug____: no.
  652. # [20:42] <rniwa> smaug____: that's not how it works
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  654. # [20:42] <rniwa> maybe my spec isn't clear.
  655. # [20:42] <rniwa> smaug____: but the intent is for the dictionary to be kept alive
  656. # [20:42] <rniwa> smaug____: and execute, undo, redo, & executeAutomatic to be called upon on the dictionary object
  657. # [20:42] <smaug____> then you should use some nointerfacecobject interface
  658. # [20:43] <smaug____> not dictionary
  659. # [20:43] <rniwa> smaug____: I'm using that.
  660. # [20:43] <rniwa> smaug____: it's DOMTransaction
  661. # [20:43] <rniwa> smaug____: with [NoInterface]
  662. # [20:43] <smaug____> ok, let's not talk about dictionaries then :)
  663. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> Eh, NoInterfaceObject, you shouldn't use that
  664. # [20:43] <rniwa> smaug____: yeah, that's the confusing part.
  665. # [20:43] <smaug____> ojan_away was talking about dictionaries in his email
  666. # [20:44] <smaug____> so you're probably talking about different things... and I'm not sure what exactly :)
  667. # [20:44] <rniwa> smaug____, Ms2ger: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/undomanager/raw-file/tip/undomanager.html#dom-domtransaction
  668. # [20:45] <rniwa> well... it works like Dictionary to some extent
  669. # [20:45] <rniwa> at least in ES5, you can create one like Dictionary
  670. # [20:45] <rniwa> but yeah... it's not really the same thing
  671. # [20:45] <rniwa> the fact we're talking about this in ES5 is making everything super confusing
  672. # [20:45] <smaug____> Dictionary is pretty well-defined in WebIDL
  673. # [20:45] <rniwa> smaug____: yes, but i don't think ojan_away was talking about that.
  674. # [20:46] <smaug____> I thought he was talking about dictionaries
  675. # [20:46] <rniwa> smaug____: he and everyone else are referring to dictionary was in ordinary programming language term.
  676. # [20:46] <rniwa> s/ was/ as/
  677. # [20:46] <smaug____> huh
  678. # [20:46] <Ms2ger> Interfaces aren't implemented by content scripts
  679. # [20:46] <rniwa> Ms2ger: they could be.
  680. # [20:47] <Ms2ger> No
  681. # [20:47] <rniwa> Ms2ger: but this is EXACTLY why I want to change the interface
  682. # [20:47] <rniwa> because it's so damn foreign to the Web
  683. # [20:47] <smaug____> when talking about WebIDL interfaces 'dictionary' certainly refers to the concept in WebIDL
  684. # [20:48] <Ms2ger> So, what is this DOMTransaction thing?
  685. # [20:48] <rniwa> Ms2ger: http://www.w3.org/TR/WebIDL/#es-user-objects
  686. # [20:48] <rniwa> Ms2ger: it's a user object implementing a callback interface
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  688. # [20:48] <rniwa> but we had never used this semantics in any other API
  689. # [20:48] <Ms2ger> What do you use it for?
  690. # [20:48] <rniwa> Ms2ger: you use it to represent an undo "step"
  691. # [20:49] <rniwa> Ms2ger: a unit of work that can be done, undone, or redone via undo manager
  692. # [20:49] <rniwa> Ms2ger: it represents a "command" in the command design pattern
  693. # [20:51] <smaug____> I don't buy the "foreign to the Web". { handleEvent: function(evt) {} } isn't foreign to the Web
  694. # [20:51] <smaug____> the fact the the object may have some more properties does change anything
  695. # [20:52] <smaug____> s/does/doesn't/
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  699. # [20:53] <rniwa> smaug____: i don't think most authors are aware of the fact an event handler is an object though
  700. # [20:54] <Ms2ger> So, you pass it to transact()?
  701. # [20:54] <rniwa> smaug____: i literally had never seen anyone using that explicit object form
  702. # [20:54] <rniwa> Ms2ger: right.
  703. # [20:54] <Ms2ger> Why doesn't the IDL for transact say that?
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  705. # [20:55] <Ms2ger> Looks like a dictionary would work
  706. # [20:56] <rniwa> Ms2ger: yeah... i should update the spec :\
  707. # [20:56] <smaug____> dictionary doesn't work if rniwa wants the 'this' handling he mentioned above
  708. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> Well, no
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  710. # [20:57] <rniwa> smaug____, Ms2ger: that "this" handling is pretty important.
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  712. # [20:57] <rniwa> otherwise the benefit of using dictionary degrades significantly
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  715. # [20:59] <smaug____> so don't use dictionary but callback interface :)
  716. # [20:59] <rniwa> smaug____, Ms2ger: so are you guys opposed to yuval's proposal?
  717. # [21:00] <Ms2ger> Link?
  718. # [21:00] <smaug____> I'm not sure I understand what is the "final" proposal
  719. # [21:01] <matjas> zcorpan: thanks for the link
  720. # [21:01] <Ms2ger> Anyway, write it up, and we'll complain then :)
  721. # [21:01] <rniwa> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2012JulSep/0058.html
  722. # [21:02] <smaug____> that hybrid form is really odd
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  724. # [21:04] <smaug____> rniwa: just curious, did this all start from the memory management problems, or were you thinking about changing the API even before someone started to implement the API ?
  725. # [21:04] <rniwa> smaug____: i had never liked the API because it seemed very different from other APIs
  726. # [21:04] <rniwa> smaug____: and my intern had been wokring on this patch
  727. # [21:05] <rniwa> and memory management thing motivated me enough to start the thread
  728. # [21:06] * smaug____ can't wait to see cycle collector to be implemented for webkit ;)
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  730. # [21:07] <Ms2ger> Let's try workers first
  731. # [21:08] <rniwa> smaug____: that oddness solves one important weridness
  732. # [21:08] <rniwa> smaug____: which comes with "native" DOMTransactions
  733. # [21:08] <rniwa> smaug____: editing commands add
  734. # [21:08] <Ms2ger> (Hah, XSLT3)
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  736. # [21:10] <rniwa> Ms2ger: how about some sane NodeList & HTMLCollection
  737. # [21:10] <smaug____> rniwa: well, it is odd to have some sorts of callbacks and event listeners
  738. # [21:10] <Ms2ger> rniwa, what about NodeList?
  739. # [21:10] <rniwa> smaug____: no... there will be no callbacks
  740. # [21:10] <rniwa> Ms2ger: WebKit has namedItem or whatever on NodeList
  741. # [21:10] <smaug____> new DOMTransaction(function () { ~ })
  742. # [21:10] <Ms2ger> Kill it
  743. # [21:10] <smaug____> what is that function if not a callback?
  744. # [21:10] <rniwa> smaug____: on but that won't be added as a property
  745. # [21:10] <rniwa> smaug____: it'll be hidden within the object.
  746. # [21:11] <smaug____> so?
  747. # [21:11] <smaug____> it is still a callback
  748. # [21:11] <rniwa> smaug____: yeah... :\
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  750. # [21:11] <rniwa> smaug____: so should we just do
  751. # [21:11] <rniwa> t = new DOMTransaction
  752. # [21:11] <rniwa> t.onexecute = function () {~}
  753. # [21:11] <rniwa> t.onundo = function () {~}
  754. # [21:11] <rniwa> t.onredo = function () {~}
  755. # [21:11] <rniwa> ?
  756. # [21:12] <smaug____> that one looks better
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  758. # [21:15] <smaug____> (but I'm sure the jQuery fans will complain ;) )
  759. # [21:17] <rniwa> smaug____: well, people who like jQuery can wait for jQuery to support it
  760. # [21:17] <Ms2ger> t.onexecute = function () { ~; return this; }
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  807. # [23:10] <Ms2ger> https://twitter.com/dastels/status/223059799699501056
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  809. # [23:15] <jsbell> Not sure if praise or damning praise.
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  836. # Session Close: Thu Jul 12 00:00:00 2012

The end :)