/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-07-13 / end

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  18. # [00:27] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  19. # [00:27] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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  23. # [00:28] <loincloth> what what
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  49. # [01:16] <zewt> cool, "new" paypal page broke the login form in some weird way
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  51. # [01:17] <zewt> haha and they use a position: absolute block hovering on top of the input form instead of @placeholder, and don't bother turning off pointer-events, so when i click the input, it randomly selects the placeholder instead of the input
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  53. # [01:17] <zewt> it's always amazing when the highest-profile pages on the internet screw up so badly
  54. # [01:19] <TabAtkins_> yay!
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  57. # [01:19] <hober> s/amazing/sadly unsurprising/
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  59. # [01:20] <zewt> i was trying to be a *little* generous
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  61. # [01:20] <zewt> okay I guess I wan't :)
  62. # [01:20] <zewt> also wasn't
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  71. # [01:22] <zewt> (somehow having a simple login form break autocompletion twice and then select the word "address" three times makes me feel ungenerous)
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  226. # [06:37] <kodkod> irc is so oldschool
  227. # [06:37] <zewt> yeah, it's way too functional for today's internet
  228. # [06:39] <kodkod> heh there were times when i use to be an ircop on some servers :)
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  254. # [07:24] <zcorpan> Hixie: turns out "soon" didn't match reality eh? i really don't like this. can fixed bugs be marked in some other way that is possible to search/filter for?
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  262. # [07:52] <zcorpan> role attribute?
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  266. # [07:52] <zcorpan> i thought the PFWG had taken the attribute and defined it completely in the ARIA spec *years* ago, since the role spec was useless
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  350. # [10:15] <annevk> zcorpan: it's that time when everything old is new again
  351. # [10:15] <annevk> see also: HTML WG
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  360. # [10:31] <annevk> yay zewt for following up on the File API mess
  361. # [10:32] <annevk> zewt: maybe it can be some kind of post-URL-parser steps that do this
  362. # [10:32] <annevk> zewt: that way not all specs have to special case Blob URLs
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  371. # [10:52] <sedovsek> Anyone knows whether Page Visibility works on iOS/Androids (hint: it does not :/)? Are there any workarounds?
  372. # [10:53] <sedovsek> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-page-visibility-20110602/
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  380. # [11:02] <annevk> okay, I'm no longer stalking people in Mozilla or WebKit Bugzilla
  381. # [11:02] <annevk> this means that if you cc me there's a somewhat bigger chance I'll take a look
  382. # [11:07] <Ms2ger> Did I spam you too much? :)
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  387. # [11:33] <annevk> I had 80k unread Gecko threads and 30k unread WebKit
  388. # [11:33] <annevk> time to give up the experiment :)
  389. # [11:33] <annevk> now marking everything as read and see how it goes
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  396. # [11:37] <annevk> When is Gmail going to remove the "Invite a friend" box?
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  400. # [11:47] <sedovsek> @annevk : )
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  402. # [11:48] <sedovsek> I've seen you're giving a talk at the fronteers conf.
  403. # [11:48] <sedovsek> Looking forward already.
  404. # [11:50] <annevk> ah yeah, Fronteers will be fun :)
  405. # [11:50] <sedovsek> Yea… go to Amsterdam they said.
  406. # [11:50] <sedovsek> It will be fun they said.
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  409. # [12:05] <annevk> no worries, our http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levee have been safe since the fifties
  410. # [12:05] <annevk> (too many words for one thing in English)
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  412. # [12:11] <SimonSapin> funny how English uses a French word where French has a different word (digue)
  413. # [12:11] <annevk> English has that too
  414. # [12:11] <annevk> dike/dyke
  415. # [12:11] <annevk> dijk in Dutch
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  426. # [12:21] <Lachy> be careful of using the word dike in English. It has an unfortunate slang meaning.
  427. # [12:23] <beverloo> Don't you mean dyke?
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  438. # [12:43] <hsivonen> almost every English word seems to have slang meanings that make you uneasy about using the word if you look it up on urbandictionary :-(
  439. # [12:44] <hsivonen> (not to suggest disagreement with Lachy's warning)
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  441. # [12:47] <annevk> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2012/07/12/ie10-user-agent-string-update.aspx cross-platform :/
  442. # [12:47] <hsivonen> looks like they are bold enough to break the Desktop/Phone/Tablet taxonomy and instead go with a touch / no touch
  443. # [12:48] <hsivonen> unless, of course, they later ship IE10 for phones with yet another UA string anyway
  444. # [12:48] <hsivonen> in which case they could have said Tablet instead of touch for compat with Firefox and Opera
  445. # [12:48] <annevk> it doesn't really seem compatible with Microsoft's platform vision of being able to interact with everything in whatever way you want either
  446. # [12:49] <annevk> if the UA advertises touch and I have a keyboard hooked up there's a fair chance I'm going to be in trouble, which seems kind of contrary to recent Microsoft vision announcements
  447. # [12:49] <hsivonen> fwiw, I expect the strategy of putting touch screens on desktops to flop for ergonomic and aesthetic reasons
  448. # [12:50] <Ms2ger> annevk, maybe you should get yourself hired by MS :)
  449. # [12:50] <annevk> hsivonen: well yeah, me too
  450. # [12:50] <annevk> hsivonen: just pointing out some inconsistency here :)
  451. # [12:51] <hsivonen> annevk: well, Mozilla's platform engineers supposedly prefer capability sniffing, but we still cater to non-top-tier Web authors who want to assume a Desktop/Tablet/Phone taxonomy and UA sniff for it
  452. # [12:52] <annevk> seems bad for fingerprinting, but I guess it's exposed in other ways already
  453. # [12:52] <annevk> (though it does make it easier)
  454. # [12:53] <hsivonen> I should note that Opera's local-Presto products do it, too
  455. # [12:53] <hsivonen> In which light I find it odd that Opera Mini doesn't expose tabletness in the UA string
  456. # [12:54] <hsivonen> even though Mini spews out fingerprinting surface without any concern by exposing the exact device model
  457. # [12:54] <annevk> I have attempted to fix various bits of our UA string, but somehow missed out when we started screwing it up again :/
  458. # [12:55] <hsivonen> I was trying to advocate that Mozilla do it exactly like Opera (with "Mobi" and "Tablet"), but we ended up doing it with "Mobile" and "Tablet"
  459. # [12:55] <hsivonen> which still allows clueful people handle Firefox and Opera form-factor sniffing using the same code
  460. # [12:56] <hsivonen> not sure how much of a lost cause it is to design UA strings to be nicely sniffable by clueful sniffers
  461. # [12:59] <annevk> for a moment there I was hopeful the IE blog used <mark>
  462. # [12:59] <annevk> turns out it's <span style="background-color: yellow;">Touch</span>
  463. # [12:59] <hsivonen> <mark> would have made it so much more Semantic
  464. # [12:59] <annevk> :)
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  466. # [13:01] <annevk> the web needs a new Mark Pilgrim for some level-headed commentary
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  468. # [13:02] <annevk> there's @mattur but he's limited to 140 characters
  469. # [13:03] <niloy> the IE blog is a sad piece of software, no rounded corners, no gradients, looks like 2006
  470. # [13:03] <hsivonen> the AC should be outraged that the W3C's resources have gone into publishing an XHTML2 module, but chances are no one even gets a slap on the wrist for it
  471. # [13:04] <annevk> W3C doesn't know what it's doing; film at eleven
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  473. # [13:07] <hsivonen> it'll be interesting to see what will be put forward as the two interoperable implementations
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  475. # [13:08] <hsivonen> my guess is: two XML editors that don't barf on a DTD that declares an attribute called role
  476. # [13:08] <Ms2ger> My guess is that they won't bother and nobody will complain
  477. # [13:09] <hsivonen> Björn might
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  479. # [13:10] * hsivonen looks forward to another spiderman episode
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  484. # [13:30] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like the email where I proposed Mozilla stop prefixing APIs got Warnocked
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  486. # [13:30] <hsivonen> well, on the positive side, while I was away, various CSS things were unprefixed in Gecko
  487. # [13:32] <smaug____> it is not clear to me when to prefix an API an when not
  488. # [13:32] <smaug____> btw, IDB got unprefix
  489. # [13:32] <smaug____> ed
  490. # [13:32] <hsivonen> I think we should not prefix
  491. # [13:32] <hsivonen> yay for IDB unprefixing
  492. # [13:32] <smaug____> hsivonen: even when implementing highly unstable APIs?
  493. # [13:33] <hsivonen> and I think we shouldn't ship to release channel stuff that we don't expect to be able to live with forever
  494. # [13:33] <hsivonen> smaug____: I think we shouldn't ship those
  495. # [13:33] <smaug____> that is possibly true
  496. # [13:33] <hsivonen> smaug____: or if we ship, we shouldn't pretend they are unstable
  497. # [13:33] <hsivonen> smaug____: I'd expect people who write apps for the first release of Firefox OS to be unhappy if we treated their apps as having been written on top of unstable APIs
  498. # [13:34] <smaug____> but the problem is that we get even less feedback from web devs, if APIs aren't in a release
  499. # [13:34] <smaug____> getting feedback from web devs is always difficult
  500. # [13:34] <hsivonen> smaug____: we get so little feedback even now that I think the delta isn't worth the trouble prefixing causes
  501. # [13:35] <smaug____> could be
  502. # [13:35] <hsivonen> I guess I should go write a couple of patches now
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  508. # [13:39] <hsivonen> speaking of feedback from Web devs, it would be interesting to count the bugzilla items we've got from various Web devs who position themselves as standards advocates
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  515. # [13:48] * hsivonen finds out about http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/07/leaving-opera whoa
  516. # [13:48] <Ms2ger> Did you hear about chaals? :)
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  519. # [13:52] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I heard a claim that he left Opera
  520. # [13:52] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I haven't heard if it was true or where he went yet
  521. # [13:52] <Ms2ger> It's true, and Yandex
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  523. # [13:54] * Ms2ger is fascinated by the addendum at http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/07/interview being older than the post otself
  524. # [13:54] <Ms2ger> *itself
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  536. # [14:20] <karlcow> hsivonen: Chaals left Opera for Yandex.
  537. # [14:23] <hsivonen> interesting destination
  538. # [14:29] <karlcow> Ms2ger: the fascinating thing is that the home page says now, and the article page says July 13th
  539. # [14:29] <karlcow> hsivonen: interesting in which way?
  540. # [14:30] <hsivonen> karlcow: in the way that Yandex is not known as a browser vendor and (AFAICT) not as a particularly active participant at the W3C
  541. # [14:33] <karlcow> hsivonen: there is a life (and businesses) outside of browser vendors ;). For Yandex and W3C, I guess they have indirect influence by their huge market share in Russia.
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  545. # [14:35] <karlcow> indeed participation is subpar for now, at least for people using yandex emails
  546. # [14:35] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/search?keywords=&hdr-1-name=from&hdr-1-query=yandex-team.ru&index-grp=Public_FULL&index-type=g&type-index=
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  548. # [14:36] * jochen___ is now known as jochen__
  549. # [14:36] <karlcow> ah there is also
  550. # [14:36] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/search?keywords=&hdr-1-name=from&hdr-1-query=yandex.ru&index-grp=Public_FULL&index-type=g&type-index=
  551. # [14:37] <karlcow> maybe generic emails yandex.ru
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  553. # [14:38] <zcorpan> chaals@opera.com Results : 2117
  554. # [14:39] * Joins: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@114-42-56-214.dynamic.hinet.net)
  555. # [14:41] <karlcow> Sidar → RMIT → W3C → Opera → Yandex
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  562. # [15:08] <zcorpan> TabAtkins_: does http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Apr/0321.html "a00000" still apply? afaict it's an identifier and would be converted. please file a bug if the spec's wrong
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  564. # [15:09] * zcorpan goes offline now for a few weeks
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  572. # [15:20] <kodkod> hello
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  576. # [15:25] <hsivonen> sigh. Source Maps have a format version identifier
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  583. # [15:37] <hsivonen> Do we have a canned reference for explaining why versioning is an anti-pattern for Web formats?
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  587. # [15:55] <kennyluck> Well Marat Tanalin is pretty active in every mailing list.
  588. # [15:57] <Ms2ger> Is that Marat Tanalin | Advertising?
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  590. # [15:58] <kennyluck> huh
  591. # [15:58] <hsivonen> kennyluck: does he/she work for Yandex or just use their webmail?
  592. # [15:58] <hsivonen> as in: people with @yahoo.com addresses don't necessarily work for Y!
  593. # [15:58] <hsivonen> either
  594. # [15:59] <kennyluck> hsivonen, good question. I don't know.
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  596. # [15:59] * hsivonen wonders how long until )]} prepended to JSON becomes an official part of JSON
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  601. # [16:06] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: prepended how?
  602. # [16:06] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: Characters ")]}" at the start of the file before normal JSON content
  603. # [16:07] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: in order to make sure the file is *not* a valid JS program
  604. # [16:07] <Lachy> hsivonen, isn't the whole point of JSON supposed to be that it is syntactically valid JavaScript?
  605. # [16:08] <Lachy> which sites prepend such characters to their JSON?
  606. # [16:09] <hsivonen> Lachy: well, JSON works independent of eval nowadays (and also in non-JS languages)
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  608. # [16:09] <Lachy> yeah, I know. But JSON.parse() doesn't support prepending )]}, does it?
  609. # [16:10] <hsivonen> Lachy: the point of )]} is to prevent cross-side data theft by overriding JS Array and then loading the file as a script
  610. # [16:10] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: is this for security reasons as described in http://flask.pocoo.org/docs/security/#json-security ?
  611. # [16:10] <hsivonen> Lachy: it doesn't support it to my knowledge, but I haven't tested
  612. # [16:10] <hsivonen> Lachy: presumably Google uses this for source maps
  613. # [16:10] <hsivonen> Lachy: the source maps spec explicitly extends JSON like this
  614. # [16:11] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: yes
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  616. # [16:12] <hsivonen> the source maps spec could use some Hixie-style spec writing. I will have to send some feedback.
  617. # [16:12] <Lachy> I don't know what source maps is.
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  620. # [16:13] <Lachy> found this. Reading. http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/developertools/sourcemaps/
  621. # [16:14] <hsivonen> yeah, that
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  639. # [16:29] <Lachy> so I'm now looking into rewriting the about: URI spec properly (since the IETF has now taken it in the wrong direction).
  640. # [16:30] <Lachy> I need to figure out a term to use, instead of "reserved about URI", which means any URI defined by a specification for use in a defined context, but where it doesn't suggest any kind of exclusivity of that URI for that spec.
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  644. # [16:35] <Lachy> I'm also defining it such that all about: URIs other than about:blank are non-dereferencable, outside of application-specific uses, which avoids any possible conflict of two specs using the same about: URI, and thus removing any need for a normative registry..
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  674. # [17:11] <matjas> TIL about the “octal escapes in regular expression literals” compatibility requirement for JavaScript: http://mathias.html5.org/specs/javascript/#octal-escapes-in-regular-expression-literals
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  682. # [17:25] <Hixie> Lachy: how on earth did the ietf manage to screw up something as simple as about: ???
  683. # [17:25] <Hixie> zcorpan: i'm literally working on a fix to the bug issue today (spent most of yesterday on it too)
  684. # [17:25] <Hixie> zcorpan: (writing a script that will clone the bugs)
  685. # [17:26] <Lachy> well, they define things that just don't match reality. percent-encoding is not supported, for example, and yet is defined in the spec. I would have changed it, but the feedback was handled around the time someone else took over editing.
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  687. # [17:27] <Lachy> they also introduced a silly registry that gives exclusivity of a given about: URI to the first spec that defines it, rather than realising that independent uses of the same token in different specs doesn't conflict in any case.
  688. # [17:27] <Lachy> they also now fail to define how about:blank is handled.
  689. # [17:29] <Ms2ger> In their defense, nobody knows how about:blank needs to be handled
  690. # [17:29] <Lachy> so I think about: URIs, at least for use in specifications, are to be handled as opaque identifiers, rather than real URLs.
  691. # [17:30] <Lachy> Ms2ger, it needs to be handled as an opaque identifier not subject to URL normalisation, and behaves as though it returns an empty UTF-8 encoded HTML document.
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  694. # [17:31] <Lachy> <iframe src="about:blan%6B"> is not the same as <iframe src="about:blank"> in any implementation.
  695. # [17:31] <Ms2ger> But clearly it *should* be!
  696. # [17:33] <Lachy> that depends on the reasons for browsers not applying any normalisation. Boris sent feedback before to the IETF list about this, and the potential for security implications for changing it.
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  698. # [17:35] <Lachy> Ms2ger, also, despite the about: spec being available and saying that for a long time now, not one browser has changed. So I'd rather have a spec that documents reality.
  699. # [17:35] <hsivonen> when in doubt, let bz take precedence over the IETF
  700. # [17:36] <Ms2ger> s/the IETF/everyone else/, pretty much
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  716. # [18:15] <Hixie> Lachy: good times
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  739. # [18:43] <hober> Lachy: TabAtkins_ apparently managed to register about:invalid with the iana folks
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  753. # [18:56] <TabAtkins_> Yup, it was pretty easy.
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  771. # [19:14] <Lachy> hober, yes, I know. I saw that.
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  785. # [19:32] <TabAtkins_> zcorpan: Assuming you read logs when you return for a few weeks, looks like I was wrong. a00000 will indeed be handled correctly by your quirk.
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  788. # [19:38] <annevk> hober: TabAtkins_: fwiw, CSS should use about:blank, just like every other place where we lack a base URL
  789. # [19:39] <annevk> Lachy: Ms2ger: %-normalization does not appear to happen in the browser, so supporting just "about:blank" should be pretty trivial
  790. # [19:40] <annevk> Lachy: Ms2ger: especially once the URL specification is somewhat more in shape, though not sure how much of that I'll do during vacation, other than a bit of planning
  791. # [19:40] <TabAtkins_> annevk: No can do. That's a valid HTML page, which won't do what we want if we, say, de-magicify iframes into CSS.
  792. # [19:40] <annevk> it's not valid and I'm not sure what you mean
  793. # [19:41] <TabAtkins_> Hm? about:blank is a perfectly valid page.
  794. # [19:41] <annevk> not validator valid
  795. # [19:41] <TabAtkins_> Who cares about that?
  796. # [19:41] <annevk> dunno, but I'm not sure what you mean
  797. # [19:42] <scott_gonzalez> Is there a way to prevent a browser from displaying options for <input list> or would you need to remove the list attribute?
  798. # [19:42] <TabAtkins_> I mean that it's a resolveable URL that returns an HTML page.
  799. # [19:42] <annevk> scott_gonzalez: you'd need to remove the attribute
  800. # [19:42] <Lachy> annevk, right, which is why I think percent normalisation should be abandoned. It might be easier to just say that when used by a specification in a specific context, they are non-dereferencable magic tokens that look like URLs, but which aren't really. Except for about:blank, no other about: URI actually needs to refer to any specific resource.
  801. # [19:42] <annevk> TabAtkins_: what you mean with de-magicify iframes
  802. # [19:42] <TabAtkins_> The point of the default value for attr(foo url) is that it shouldn't every be dereferenceable, no matter what context it appears in.
  803. # [19:43] <TabAtkins_> annevk: Like, "content: frame(http://foo);"
  804. # [19:43] <scott_gonzalez> Is there anything documenting how to search against the options or is it up to the UA?
  805. # [19:43] <annevk> TabAtkins_: why not?
  806. # [19:43] <annevk> scott_gonzalez: up to the UA
  807. # [19:43] <TabAtkins_> Because then it's not a very good default value? Also: symmetry.
  808. # [19:44] <annevk> TabAtkins_: symmetry would be following the rest of the platform
  809. # [19:44] <scott_gonzalez> annevk: Do you think in makes sense for @list to be ignored for @autocomplete=off?
  810. # [19:44] <annevk> scott_gonzalez: no, autocomplete is orthogonal
  811. # [19:44] <Hixie> what's about:invalid?
  812. # [19:44] <Lachy> about:invalid in CSS Values spec
  813. # [19:44] <annevk> Hixie: same as about:blank but without the content-type
  814. # [19:44] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: I just got it registered. Guaranteed non-dereferencable url.
  815. # [19:44] <Hixie> ah
  816. # [19:44] <scott_gonzalez> annevk: Really? @list seems to me like a way to build a specific set of autocomplete options.
  817. # [19:45] <Hixie> in other news, i am about to start testing my script for cloning htmlwg bugs into whatwg bugs (the script to do the opposite is next, but the needs are different so i'm doing them in two different steps)
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  819. # [19:45] <annevk> scott_gonzalez: autocomplete relates to UA-autocomplete, not developer-autocomplete
  820. # [19:45] <annevk> Hixie: is the opposite needed?
  821. # [19:46] <Hixie> annevk: well i assume the htmlwg doesn't want to lose all the bugs, i mean, the bugs apply to their spec too
  822. # [19:46] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i'll let you know when i'm ready to just do a batch job, but for now since i'm doing these one bug at a time i think it's ok to leave the bugmail turned on
  823. # [19:46] <annevk> yeah I guess, don't really see the point in having both specs if they're not edited by the same person
  824. # [19:46] <Hixie> incidentally, i am calling this "operation convergence".
  825. # [19:46] <Hixie> annevk: no argument from me there, but that's up to them
  826. # [19:47] <annevk> Hixie: sounds like a name straight from Arrested Development
  827. # [19:47] <Lachy> TabAtkins_, just curious what you think about the %-encoding issue. Should about:invali%64 work in CSS, or would you rather it be just an opaque identifier that must match "about:invalid" to be valid?
  828. # [19:47] <TabAtkins_> Lachy: I have absolutely no opinion on this.
  829. # [19:47] <Lachy> ok
  830. # [19:48] <annevk> Lachy: I think everything after about: should just be treated as a literal
  831. # [19:48] <annevk> Lachy: apart from normalization that is done by the URL parser
  832. # [19:48] <annevk> Lachy: e.g. turning " " into "%20" and such
  833. # [19:48] <Hixie> ok.
  834. # [19:48] * Hixie pushes the button to run the first bug through
  835. # [19:48] * TabAtkins_ is now known as Tabatkins
  836. # [19:49] <annevk> Tabatkins: it's still not really clear to me why about:blank is not okay
  837. # [19:49] <annevk> Tabatkins: it's used e.g. for Document objects created by createDocument or createHTMLDocument
  838. # [19:49] <annevk> it's used by <iframe>s
  839. # [19:49] <annevk> etc.
  840. # [19:49] <Tabatkins> Those are trying to create HTML documents, yes.
  841. # [19:49] <Hixie> ok. this is what my script does for bugs that don't need cloning but don't apply to whatwg bugs: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14028
  842. # [19:49] <annevk> no they're not
  843. # [19:49] <Hixie> that looks ok
  844. # [19:50] * Hixie pushes the button again
  845. # [19:51] <Hixie> this is what bugs look like when they are cloned: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17769
  846. # [19:52] * Hixie makes the lines between comments longer for aesthetic reasons
  847. # [19:53] <annevk> does not look too bad
  848. # [19:53] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@office.oslo.opera.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  849. # [19:53] <Tabatkins> annevk: The problem that I alluded to with my "symmetry" comment is that we have mechanisms in CSS now that have special behavior for "invalid" URLs, that don't dereference to a resource of the expected type (the image() function).
  850. # [19:53] <annevk> but it's going to be confusing when people add comments all over
  851. # [19:54] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  852. # [19:54] <Hixie> annevk: i'm very open to suggestions for making it better
  853. # [19:54] <Tabatkins> annevk: It's reasonable to assume that, in the future, if we have properties that expect to take a URL pointing to an HTML page, that we might have similar functionality.
  854. # [19:55] <Tabatkins> annevk: So, for symmetry, might as well claim a URL up-front that will work for all media types.
  855. # [19:55] <annevk> Tabatkins: why would it ever point to about:blank directly?
  856. # [19:55] <annevk> Tabatkins: could you give an example?
  857. # [19:55] <Tabatkins> Because of attr(foo url), when the element doesn't have a "foo" attribute.
  858. # [19:56] <annevk> Tabatkins: ooh, why wouldn't you fallback to nothing?
  859. # [19:56] <Tabatkins> What is "nothing"?
  860. # [19:56] <annevk> Tabatkins: is this mainly about the computed value?
  861. # [19:56] <Tabatkins> Yeah.
  862. # [19:57] <annevk> Tabatkins: wouldn't the computed value be "foo"?
  863. # [19:57] <Hixie> hm, bug in my script; it didn't properly update the previous bug
  864. # [19:57] <Hixie> why not
  865. # [19:58] <Tabatkins> annevk: No, that would be weird. It would mean that attr(foo url) computes to either a string or a url, depending on whether the attribute exists.
  866. # [19:58] <Tabatkins> We can't do useful type-checking with that.
  867. # [19:58] * Quits: astearns (~astearns@192.150.22.5) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  868. # [19:58] <Tabatkins> And computing to url(foo) is no good either, because that's potentially a valid resource.
  869. # [20:00] <annevk> thanks for explaining
  870. # [20:00] * Joins: isherman (isherman@nat/google/x-kkjztruihevltaak)
  871. # [20:00] <Tabatkins> It makes sense now?
  872. # [20:01] <annevk> not sure whether it was worth a new URL, but the explanation makes sense
  873. # [20:01] <Tabatkins> kk, good enough.
  874. # [20:03] * Quits: abarth_ (~abarth@173-164-128-209-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: abarth_)
  875. # [20:05] * Quits: isherman (isherman@nat/google/x-kkjztruihevltaak) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  876. # [20:07] * Hixie fixes bug and pushes button again
  877. # [20:08] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:6464:1d28:6b28:873d)
  878. # [20:09] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10824 became https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17770
  879. # [20:09] <Hixie> looks like that worked, reassignment of the original and everything
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  881. # [20:14] * abstractj|lunch is now known as abstractj
  882. # [20:14] <Hixie> ok last test: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11004 cloned to https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17771
  883. # [20:15] <Hixie> that one shows some of my attempts to be clever in the cloning
  884. # [20:15] <Hixie> (compare the comments)
  885. # [20:15] <Hixie> ok. this script seems to work. let's work on the script for the other direction now.
  886. # [20:15] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@72-63-130-91.pools.spcsdns.net) (Quit: lolmalarkey)
  887. # [20:16] <Ms2ger> Killing the "EDITOR'S RESPONSE" boilerplate and the "mass-moved component" comments?
  888. # [20:16] <Hixie> and stripping quotations from comments for the form ">lots of quotations from immediately prior comment\ncomment"
  889. # [20:18] <Ms2ger> What's the other direction for?
  890. # [20:20] <Hixie> the bugs that are in the 'other hixie drafts' component because they were filed from the whatwg side, but that apply to the htmlwg deliverables
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  893. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> Is there anyone who's going to look at them?
  894. # [20:25] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  895. # [20:26] <Ms2ger> At the bugs in the htmlwg components
  896. # [20:26] <Hixie> the chairs have said that they are going to find an editor who is going to do what i was doing but with an eye to going to REC, so i presume so
  897. # [20:26] <Hixie> it's what their process requires, no?
  898. # [20:27] <Hixie> it would be pretty disastrous to the htmlwg spec if they just stopped fixing the problems with it, not to mention being a violation of both the wg's process and the w3c's process
  899. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> Well...
  900. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> Yes
  901. # [20:29] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Remote host closed the connection)
  902. # [20:30] <Hixie> anyway, that's their problem
  903. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> Otoh, the W3C just published an XHTML2 module
  904. # [20:30] <Hixie> seriously?
  905. # [20:31] <Ms2ger> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/CR-role-attribute-20120712/
  906. # [20:31] <Hixie> ...
  907. # [20:32] <annevk> well also the HTML Media Capture draft
  908. # [20:33] <annevk> which is really just a new attribute for <input>
  909. # [20:34] <annevk> Tabatkins: I think in the specific case where you want to represent a network error via a URL and not have the URL for base URL purposes something like about:invalid is probably okay
  910. # [20:34] <annevk> Tabatkins: it seems somewhat likely there's a precedent for that somewhere, but maybe not
  911. # [20:34] <Tabatkins> Yeah, that's basically the intent here.
  912. # [20:34] <Ms2ger> Oh, and I hadn't even seen http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/2012/WD-xforms20-20120628/ yet
  913. # [20:35] <annevk> Ms2ger: there was also an XForms module I think
  914. # [20:35] <Ms2ger> Anyway, I don't really care what the W3C does anymore
  915. # [20:36] <Hixie> annevk: btw is anyone implementing capture="" yet? if they are we should just spec it
  916. # [20:36] <annevk> I thought Android had it, but I'm not sure if Chrome Android has it too
  917. # [20:36] <annevk> beverloo?
  918. # [20:37] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.57.129.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  919. # [20:38] <Hixie> if it's just one vendor then it's not so interesting
  920. # [20:39] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.28.113) (Quit: Leaving)
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  923. # [20:40] <Hixie> annevk: btw is this your bug? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10213
  924. # [20:41] * Joins: sarspazam (~sarspazam@78-105-183-7.zone3.bethere.co.uk)
  925. # [20:42] <annevk> it's from simon
  926. # [20:42] <annevk> you can reassign to the URL spec
  927. # [20:42] <annevk> it's going to be solved by the whitelist of hierarchical schemes
  928. # [20:43] <annevk> I can reassign too
  929. # [20:45] <annevk> Hixie: maybe instead of "other Hixie drafts" we should ask for a "WHATWG" or "WHATCG" product?
  930. # [20:45] <annevk> Hixie: and then have HTML / Encoding / Fullscreen / Quirks there
  931. # [20:47] <Hixie> i'd rather not have to fix all my scripts to use the new product/component
  932. # [20:47] <Hixie> but i can certainly see the logic
  933. # [20:47] <Hixie> especially for the other drafts
  934. # [20:47] * Joins: isherman (isherman@nat/google/x-lebdxtgedapapwdf)
  935. # [20:47] <Hixie> i guess it wouldn't be so bad, not that many scripts to update really
  936. # [20:47] <Hixie> sure
  937. # [20:47] <Hixie> let's do that
  938. # [20:48] <Hixie> let's wait til after this migration though
  939. # [20:48] <annevk> sure, I think it'll also help people filing bugs against WHATWG work
  940. # [20:48] * Joins: jryans (~jryans@office.massrel.com)
  941. # [20:48] <Hixie> yeah
  942. # [20:49] <hober> word
  943. # [20:51] <annevk> zewt: are you around?
  944. # [20:51] <Hixie> (incidentally, i'm not changing the qa contact field during this, but i guess after the migration we should change that too)
  945. # [20:52] * Quits: isherman (isherman@nat/google/x-lebdxtgedapapwdf) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  946. # [20:52] <Hixie> ok looks like part 2 is ready too
  947. # [20:52] <Hixie> MikeSmith: ok i'm ready whenever you are
  948. # [20:53] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek) (Quit: jarek)
  949. # [20:54] <Hixie> back in bit, lunch
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  953. # [21:05] <annevk> zewt: added a comment to the bug instead
  954. # [21:05] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-ctsnzmauolxggpeo)
  955. # [21:08] <jtcranmer> is there any sort of spec for txt-to-html conversion or vice versa?
  956. # [21:10] <SimonSapin> jtcranmer: there are many text-based lightweight markup languages that can convert to HTML: markdown, restructuredText, …
  957. # [21:11] <jtcranmer> that doesn't answer my question :-)
  958. # [21:12] <SimonSapin> then, what do you mean by txt-to-html?
  959. # [21:12] <annevk> jtcranmer: there's no standardized way other than lots of de facto standards
  960. # [21:13] <jtcranmer> there are de facto standards at least for things like *bold* /italics/ _underline_ |code|
  961. # [21:14] <SimonSapin> yes, and markdown formalizes them somewhat
  962. # [21:14] <jtcranmer> and I've noticed that things like copying HTML and pasting as plain text tend to do things like turn <ol> into # and <ul> into * or similar ventures
  963. # [21:14] <SimonSapin> there are many variants, like `code` instead of |code|
  964. # [21:15] <SimonSapin> if you pick on precisely, you get something like markdown
  965. # [21:15] <SimonSapin> http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax
  966. # [21:17] <Tabatkins> Yes, Markdown is generally accepted as the "standard" txt-markup language now. There are several incompatible extensions, but the core is stable.
  967. # [21:18] <jtcranmer> how about the other direction?
  968. # [21:18] <SimonSapin> it has been done, but it is always lossy
  969. # [21:19] <jtcranmer> I don't doubt that it is
  970. # [21:22] * gwicke_ is now known as gwicke
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  973. # [21:34] <Tabatkins> It's actually a good bit easier. Just look up what markdown can encode, then reverse it in the obvious way.
  974. # [21:34] <Tabatkins> <h1>foo</h1> becomes "foo\n===", etc.
  975. # [21:34] * Joins: isherman (isherman@nat/google/x-rhypxunjxdkwrmog)
  976. # [21:35] <SimonSapin> Tabatkins: easier because we already have HTML parsers?
  977. # [21:35] <Tabatkins> Yes, it's a simple tree-walk then.
  978. # [21:35] <Tabatkins> I'm assuming this is done in the browser.
  979. # [21:35] <Tabatkins> Outside of it, the HTML parser is harder than the Markdown parser. ^_^
  980. # [21:36] <SimonSapin> okay. I guess md-to-html is alsa just a tree-walk once the Markdown is parsed
  981. # [21:36] <SimonSapin> also*
  982. # [21:37] <Tabatkins> Well, sure.
  983. # [21:38] <annevk> http://softwaremaniacs.org/playground/showdown-highlight/
  984. # [21:38] * Quits: isherman (isherman@nat/google/x-rhypxunjxdkwrmog) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  985. # [21:39] <Hixie> the official way to convert text/plain to HTML is <pre>... :-)
  986. # [21:40] <Tabatkins> <plaintext>, you mean.
  987. # [21:40] <Tabatkins> Also, <xmp> is better for actual text/plain.
  988. # [21:40] <Hixie> that's the unofficial way
  989. # [21:40] <Tabatkins> ;_;
  990. # [21:41] <jtcranmer> Hixie: that's how you should display a text/plain as a DOM
  991. # [21:41] <Tabatkins> annevk: Hrm, the default styling there doesn't do anything special for blockquotes, which looks confusing.
  992. # [21:41] <MacTed> <pre> fails at text/plain conversion to HTML, as there's no line-wrapping within <pre> elements
  993. # [21:41] <jtcranmer> Hixie: for email clients receiving a text/plain, requirements are slightly different
  994. # [21:42] <Tabatkins> MacTed: <pre style="whitespace: pre-wrap;">
  995. # [21:43] <MacTed> Tabatkins - I believe that will work in many (most) browsers. but it's a different way than <pre>.
  996. # [21:43] <Hixie> jtcranmer: an e-mail client receiving text/plain e-mail doesn't have to convert to HTML, it has to convert to pixels.
  997. # [21:43] <Hixie> (typically)
  998. # [21:43] <Hixie> there's no line wrapping in text/plain either :-)
  999. # [21:45] <MacTed> Hixie - what the rendering engine does with text/plain is outside of scope. <pre> mandates no wrapping during render. text/plain does no such thing.
  1000. # [21:45] <Hixie> <pre> doesn't mandate anything on rendering
  1001. # [21:45] <Hixie> you could render <pre> contents to a 3d orange and it wouldn't be non-compliant
  1002. # [21:46] <Hixie> anyway
  1003. # [21:46] * Ms2ger throws a 3d orange at Hixie
  1004. # [21:46] <Hixie> any browser vendors other than chrome looking at this autocompletetype thing?
  1005. # [21:47] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@95-27-167-42.broadband.corbina.ru)
  1006. # [21:47] <Ms2ger> autowhat?
  1007. # [21:47] <Hixie> chrome proposal from a while back about a way to do better autofill
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  1012. # [21:56] <Hixie> anyone from mozilla or opera have an opinion on it?
  1013. # [21:57] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2011Dec/0194.html was the original e-mail
  1014. # [21:57] <Ms2ger> volkmar, ^
  1015. # [21:58] <Ms2ger> I don't care much for it
  1016. # [22:00] <rniwa> sigh... HTMLCollection is such a mess.
  1017. # [22:00] <Ms2ger> s/HTMLCollection/the web/
  1018. # [22:01] <rniwa> why does HTMLAllCollection::namedItem returns another HTMLAllCollection?
  1019. # [22:01] <rniwa> why can't it be HTMLCollection
  1020. # [22:01] <rniwa> or NodeList
  1021. # [22:01] <Ms2ger> I dunno
  1022. # [22:01] * Ms2ger looks what Gecko does
  1023. # [22:01] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  1024. # [22:01] <rniwa> HTMLOptionsCollection::namedItem returns live NodeList
  1025. # [22:01] <rniwa> and HTMLFormCollection::namedItem returns RadioNodeList
  1026. # [22:02] <rniwa> HTMLPropertiesCollection::namedItem returns PropertyNodeList
  1027. # [22:02] * Joins: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  1028. # [22:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: reinventing the RFC WF2 used to reference, eh?
  1029. # [22:05] <hsivonen> (although in fairness, decoupling the autofill semantic from the field name is slightly different)
  1030. # [22:05] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah
  1031. # [22:06] <Ms2ger> rniwa, afaict, Gecko just goes with the usual NodeList-HTMLCollection hybrid
  1032. # [22:06] <rniwa> Ms2ger: we just return static node list LOL
  1033. # [22:06] <Hixie> hsivonen: they had some good reasons for thinking the rfc failed due to design problems and not due to lack of need, can't remember if they told me them in person or talked about it on the list
  1034. # [22:06] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
  1035. # [22:06] <Tabatkins> Should we be prefixing the new path apis on canvas?
  1036. # [22:07] <Hixie> tano
  1037. # [22:07] <Hixie> er
  1038. # [22:07] <Hixie> Tabatkins: no
  1039. # [22:07] <Tabatkins> kk
  1040. # [22:07] <hsivonen> Tabatkins: prefixing in what way?
  1041. # [22:07] <Hixie> i guarantee that any spec i write will not conflict with implementations, either by renaming the things in the spec or aligning with implementations directly
  1042. # [22:07] <Hixie> so there's never any need to prefix stuff i spec
  1043. # [22:07] <Tabatkins> hsivonen: webkitPath(), etc.
  1044. # [22:08] <Ms2ger> Let's rename some more flexbox stuff
  1045. # [22:08] <Tabatkins> VIOLENCE
  1046. # [22:08] <Hixie> lol
  1047. # [22:08] <hsivonen> Tabatkins: I wish by now it was clear that the answer to "should we vendor prefix?" is "NOOOO!" :-(
  1048. # [22:08] <Ms2ger> But order is such a bad name...
  1049. # [22:09] <Ms2ger> Hmm
  1050. # [22:09] <Ms2ger> document.all.item("item")
  1051. # [22:09] <Ms2ger> I bet Gecko doesn't handle that right
  1052. # [22:09] <Ms2ger> Otoh, I don't care
  1053. # [22:09] <annevk> Tabatkins: for some reason that reminds me of http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1063663989&count=1
  1054. # [22:10] <Ms2ger> "Margin collapsing is now well defined."
  1055. # [22:10] <Tabatkins> Oh, the naivete of youth...
  1056. # [22:10] <hsivonen> lol
  1057. # [22:10] <annevk> Ms2ger: where is that from?
  1058. # [22:11] <Ms2ger> annevk, ... guess?
  1059. # [22:11] <Tabatkins> That post you linked.
  1060. # [22:11] <annevk> oh doh
  1061. # [22:11] <annevk> now you reminded me of the one where Hixie is a fan of XHTML 2.0
  1062. # [22:11] <hsivonen> how many Last Calls did CSS 2.1 have?
  1063. # [22:11] <Tabatkins> I consider it just one long 8-year LC.
  1064. # [22:12] <Hixie> hey, margin collapsing at that point _was_ well defined compared to before
  1065. # [22:12] <Hixie> it was defined in like 4 hand-wavy lines before that point
  1066. # [22:12] <Ms2ger> "compared to before" is pretty essential
  1067. # [22:13] <Hixie> it's like html parsing before, and after, the month i spent first speccing it
  1068. # [22:13] <Hixie> sure, it wasn't perfectly "well defined" after either, but compared to before, hell
  1069. # [22:14] <Hixie> ok let's see. i have a bunch of features that are only requested by one vendor but which nobody seems opposed to. if i do one such feature per vendor, that should be considered fair, right?
  1070. # [22:14] <Hixie> apple want getImageDataHD
  1071. # [22:15] <Hixie> chrome want like a zillion things, but let's start with autocompletetype
  1072. # [22:15] <Hixie> mozilla want... data: in web workers was a mozilla request right?
  1073. # [22:15] <Ms2ger> No, Opera
  1074. # [22:15] <espadrine> The autocompletetype effort is very good
  1075. # [22:15] <Ms2ger> At least, I'm going to put it on Opera's bill
  1076. # [22:15] <espadrine> do they want it in the html spec?
  1077. # [22:15] <espadrine> it feels like it doesn't belong
  1078. # [22:15] <Hixie> ok, so what does mozilla want that nobody else wants
  1079. # [22:16] <Ms2ger> The entire output of the WebAPI WG
  1080. # [22:16] <Hixie> espadrine: yeah, it'd be a small subsection in the web forms section
  1081. # [22:16] <Hixie> Ms2ger: i mean, that goes in the whatwg spec
  1082. # [22:16] <Hixie> oh the plugin click-to-play thing
  1083. # [22:16] <Hixie> that's a mozilla thing
  1084. # [22:16] <Hixie> ok
  1085. # [22:16] <Ms2ger> That's a thing by some Mozilla guy ;)
  1086. # [22:17] <Ms2ger> And I think he retracted it
  1087. # [22:17] <Hixie> and what does Microsoft want
  1088. # [22:17] <Hixie> removeHitRegion?
  1089. # [22:17] <espadrine> it looks sort of like scheme.org… but having a subsection in the spec makes it visible
  1090. # [22:18] <Hixie> espadrine: i'd probably put scheme.org in the html spec if they asked :-)
  1091. # [22:18] <Hixie> schema.org?
  1092. # [22:18] <Hixie> whatever it's called
  1093. # [22:18] <Hixie> wait, you mean the microdata thing for search engines right?
  1094. # [22:18] <Ms2ger> Meh
  1095. # [22:18] <espadrine> yep, misspelled ;)
  1096. # [22:18] <Hixie> k
  1097. # [22:18] <Ms2ger> We already implemented your microdata API
  1098. # [22:19] <Hixie> anyway, i'd probably put that in if they wanted it in the html spec, there are other vocabs in there
  1099. # [22:19] <Ms2ger> About which I note there are some outstanding bugs ;)
  1100. # [22:19] <Hixie> i'm stuck on bugs until MikeSmith gets online
  1101. # [22:19] <Hixie> anyway bugs aren't controversial
  1102. # [22:19] <Hixie> everyone wants them fixed, generally
  1103. # [22:20] <annevk> MikeSmith is prolly ~5h away from being online
  1104. # [22:20] <annevk> espadrine: why should it not be in HTML?
  1105. # [22:21] <rniwa> Ms2ger: i've sent an angry email about htmlcollection now.
  1106. # [22:21] <Ms2ger> I noticed :)
  1107. # [22:21] <Ms2ger> Oh, we want window.scrollMax*
  1108. # [22:21] <espadrine> annevk: maybe it should, I'm not sure
  1109. # [22:21] * Joins: isherman (isherman@nat/google/x-yufnpeercopcrjft)
  1110. # [22:22] <annevk> espadrine: that and a wiki page for extensions that get later folded in if successful seems like a rather good model
  1111. # [22:22] <Hixie> scrollMax => CSSOM
  1112. # [22:22] * Joins: izhak (~izhak@188.244.179.234)
  1113. # [22:23] <Ms2ger> Might as well say /dev/null
  1114. # [22:23] <espadrine> annevk: as long as those extensions are not vendor-prefixed
  1115. # [22:23] <annevk> Ms2ger: didn't quite realize it would be this bad :(
  1116. # [22:24] <annevk> espadrine: uhuh :)
  1117. # [22:24] <Tabatkins> I'm annoyed, but I'm giving them til the timeline that Shane gave me expires.
  1118. # [22:24] <Tabatkins> Which is in August.
  1119. # [22:26] <Ms2ger> When did they claim they would edit?
  1120. # [22:26] <Ms2ger> January?
  1121. # [22:26] <Tabatkins> Don't recall.
  1122. # [22:27] * Ms2ger doesn't believe anything useful will happen on that spec
  1123. # [22:27] * Quits: isherman (isherman@nat/google/x-yufnpeercopcrjft) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  1124. # [22:27] <Hixie> ok i can't get hold of josh and the thread on click-to-play does give a plausible alternative that involves no spec changes
  1125. # [22:27] <Tabatkins> If nothing useful happens, I'll take it. But like I said, I'm still waiting for my coworker to exceed his timeline. ^_^
  1126. # [22:27] <Hixie> so... what else do mozilla people want
  1127. # [22:28] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.57.129.getinternet.no)
  1128. # [22:28] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-118-69.dynamic.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  1129. # [22:29] <annevk> Ms2ger: it was very shortly after http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Nov/0782.html
  1130. # [22:29] <annevk> Ms2ger: glazou was so happy with the new editors he tweeted enthusiastically about them before anything was done
  1131. # [22:30] <annevk> Ms2ger: but you know, it's only over half a year later, give them some time
  1132. # [22:30] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-25-243-179.dynamic.hinet.net)
  1133. # [22:31] <Tabatkins> "all the email addresses in the registries have had
  1134. # [22:31] <Tabatkins> their "@" symbols automatically converted into ampersands in order to
  1135. # [22:31] <Tabatkins> thwart harvesting.
  1136. # [22:31] <Tabatkins> wut
  1137. # [22:32] <Ms2ger> Hixie, we'd like you to define table layout? :)
  1138. # [22:32] <annevk> if url contains ietf.org look for "&"
  1139. # [22:32] <annevk> or iana.org
  1140. # [22:32] <annevk> ooh
  1141. # [22:32] <annevk> is that how it works
  1142. # [22:33] <annevk> please define CSS Hixie
  1143. # [22:33] <annevk> I'm soon unemployed, but the people will appreciate it
  1144. # [22:33] <Tabatkins> annevk: What actual job did you end up taking? The page you linked to isn't in English. ^_^
  1145. # [22:34] <Ms2ger> Learn Dutch :)
  1146. # [22:34] <annevk> Tabatkins: http://robbertbroersma.nl/ looks English to me
  1147. # [22:35] <Tabatkins> ...huh. I didn't see the blog posts before.
  1148. # [22:35] * Joins: yodasw16 (~dgillhesp@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com)
  1149. # [22:35] <annevk> Tabatkins: but I'm going to be a co-founder of sorts
  1150. # [22:36] <Ms2ger> Working on XSLT?
  1151. # [22:37] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.193.125.getinternet.no)
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  1154. # [22:42] * pablof_ is now known as pablof
  1155. # [22:42] <annevk> Ms2ger: not planning on it, but maybe, we'll see
  1156. # [22:44] * Quits: jryans (~jryans@office.massrel.com) (Quit: Be back later)
  1157. # [22:44] <annevk> Ms2ger: planning on having fun, writing specs, making our idea successful, and enjoying the freedom of not representing anyone
  1158. # [22:44] <Ms2ger> Join Mozilla, you don't need to represent us either ;)
  1159. # [22:45] * Quits: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1160. # [22:46] <annevk> would've been the same for Google
  1161. # [22:46] <Ms2ger> Yeah, but we're good, and they're evil :)
  1162. # [22:46] <Tabatkins> Hey, fuck you. ^_^
  1163. # [22:46] <Ms2ger> <3 Tabatkins
  1164. # [22:47] <Hixie> Ms2ger: i think you're missing the part where i edit the HTML spec...
  1165. # [22:48] <Ms2ger> Hixie, can't I troll in here? :(
  1166. # [22:48] <Hixie> sure you can troll
  1167. # [22:48] <Hixie> and tab can say fuck you too :-)
  1168. # [22:49] <Ms2ger> I noticed! ;)
  1169. # [22:49] <espadrine> annevk: which idea is that?
  1170. # [22:49] <Hixie> (oh, you meant telling me to spec css was trolling. i thought you were referring to saying google was evil.)
  1171. # [22:49] <Hixie> (my bad)
  1172. # [22:49] <Ms2ger> No, mine :)
  1173. # [22:49] <Hixie> ok well i can't find anything mozilla wants
  1174. # [22:49] <Hixie> so i guess you guys get nothing
  1175. # [22:50] <Ms2ger> I didn't realize you were talking about CSS
  1176. # [22:50] <annevk> espadrine: dunno really how much we're telling, I'm on vacation and we're prolly not properly founded until October or so
  1177. # [22:50] <espadrine> annevk: I see. Good luck in your venture then! :)
  1178. # [22:50] <Hixie> Ms2ger: so basically we have no idea what either of us are saying. sounds like this conversation is going swimmingly. :-P
  1179. # [22:50] <Ms2ger> :D
  1180. # [22:50] * Joins: Kolombiken1 (~Adium@c80-216-10-244.bredband.comhem.se)
  1181. # [22:50] <hober> :)
  1182. # [22:51] <Hixie> anne: wait hold on, hold on
  1183. # [22:51] <Hixie> annevk: that site says XSLT on it
  1184. # [22:51] <Hixie> annevk: twice
  1185. # [22:51] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:6464:1d28:6b28:873d) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  1186. # [22:51] <Hixie> annevk: in big letters
  1187. # [22:51] <hober> Hixie: re: autocompletetype="", we like the overall idea of (long-term) reducing the pain of autofill code
  1188. # [22:51] <annevk> Hixie: :) Robbert is a fan
  1189. # [22:52] <Hixie> ...and you want to cofound something with him? o_O
  1190. # [22:52] <hober> hahahha
  1191. # [22:52] <Ms2ger> Hixie, I didn't miss that you edit the HTML spec, but if you're ever looking for more work to do... CSS is an option :)
  1192. # [22:52] <Hixie> Ms2ger: i'm looking for an HTML feature that mozilla wants because i'm doing the rounds of feature requests and granting one to each vendor that no other vendor is super-eager about
  1193. # [22:52] <espadrine> I wondered how long it would take before some XSLT trolling…
  1194. # [22:52] <Hixie> Ms2ger: (not those that other vendors are against)
  1195. # [22:53] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  1196. # [22:53] * Quits: dgathright (~dgathrigh@c-67-169-92-165.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1197. # [22:53] <annevk> Hixie: looking forward to it even :)
  1198. # [22:53] * Joins: dgathright (~dgathrigh@nat/yahoo/x-eszsctsqxjhxcayt)
  1199. # [22:54] <Ms2ger> Hixie, can we keep that for a future feature request? :)
  1200. # [22:54] <Hixie> Ms2ger: nah :-P
  1201. # [22:54] <Ms2ger> XBL2? :)
  1202. # [22:54] <Hixie> already specced that
  1203. # [22:54] <Ms2ger> And I guess everyone else hates it
  1204. # [22:55] <Hixie> nah only dglazkov hates it :-P
  1205. # [22:56] <Hixie> man, of the four features here, _two_ are canvas-related
  1206. # [22:56] <Hixie> ain't that always the way
  1207. # [22:56] <hsivonen> in case anyone has opinions about http vs. internal declaration precedence for source maps, now is your chance to comment on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=765993
  1208. # [22:56] <Ms2ger> Weren't you going to wait with more canvas stuff until we implemented any of the new stuff? :)
  1209. # [22:56] * Quits: Kolombiken1 (~Adium@c80-216-10-244.bredband.comhem.se) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1210. # [22:56] <Hixie> Ms2ger: i was
  1211. # [22:57] <Hixie> hsivonen: what's a source map?
  1212. # [22:57] * Quits: jsbell (jsbell@nat/google/x-jfcoycpvttftrflk) (Quit: There's no place like home...)
  1213. # [22:57] <espadrine> source map: file that contains data to go from original minified JS to readable JS
  1214. # [22:58] <espadrine> or from coffeescript to JS
  1215. # [22:58] <espadrine> it's useful for devtools, mainly
  1216. # [22:58] <Hixie> oh like symbol maps for compiled binary code?
  1217. # [22:58] <espadrine> exactly
  1218. # [22:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U1RGAehQwRypUTovF1KRlpiOFze0b-_2gc6fAH0KY0k/edit?_escaped_fragment_=
  1219. # [22:59] <Hixie> i had no idea some people used the term "source map" instead of "symbol map", weird
  1220. # [22:59] <Hixie> sounds like a useful feature though!
  1221. # [23:00] <Ms2ger> Want to spec it? :)
  1222. # [23:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: is anyone gonna use the http header? seems like a pointless feature
  1223. # [23:02] <Hixie> hsivonen: internal makes a lot of sense (p.s. i'd still love to see a filename/lineno pragma for validator.nu)
  1224. # [23:02] <espadrine> hsivonen: having the X in X-SourceMap is strange
  1225. # [23:02] <Ms2ger> espadrine, that's what hsivonen said :)
  1226. # [23:02] <Hixie> hober: i assume you want backingStorePixelRatio to return the ratio of device pixels to coordinate space units, not to CSS pixels, right?
  1227. # [23:02] <espadrine> Ms2ger: Oops. Didn't see :)
  1228. # [23:02] * Quits: erichynds (~ehynds@pool-173-76-135-79.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
  1229. # [23:03] <Hixie> er, s/device pixels/backing store pixels/
  1230. # [23:03] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  1231. # [23:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: good point. dunno
  1232. # [23:03] <annevk> hsivonen: why does the header have an X- prefix?
  1233. # [23:03] <annevk> hsivonen: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6648
  1234. # [23:04] <hsivonen> annevk: I don't know, but the usual guess applies
  1235. # [23:04] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.193.125.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  1236. # [23:04] <zewt> annevk: i'm here in case you don't want to spam the bug btw
  1237. # [23:04] <hsivonen> annevk: cool. I didn't realize that one had gotten out of the draft stage
  1238. # [23:05] <annevk> zewt: my idea is that you have a global list of identifiers
  1239. # [23:05] <annevk> zewt: the identifiers have some kind of revoke flag and origin tied to them, and optionally the payload data
  1240. # [23:06] <annevk> zewt: that way blob URLs always map to them and APIs don't need special knowledge about the state of blob URLs
  1241. # [23:06] <zewt> not quite following ... what do you mean by "revoke flag"?
  1242. # [23:06] <annevk> zewt: but if the revoke flag is set for a particular identifier parsing the URL should not work
  1243. # [23:06] <zewt> if a blob URL is revoked, it simply no longer exists
  1244. # [23:06] <annevk> yeah I think we should change that concept
  1245. # [23:06] <Hixie> hober: also, do you want it on canvas of the 2d context? i'm guessing 2d context, since the webgl guys have their own issues on this front
  1246. # [23:06] <annevk> I think it should simply fail to parse
  1247. # [23:06] <Tabatkins> Hixie: Yes, definitely.
  1248. # [23:06] <espadrine> hsivonen: since Chrome's implementation of source maps is not in stable builds yet, maybe we can change this before it's too late?
  1249. # [23:06] <annevk> because otherwise the blob URL can no longer be fetched
  1250. # [23:06] <Tabatkins> Hixie: Sorry, regarding the backingStorePixelRatio.
  1251. # [23:07] <annevk> you'd need a whole bunch of special casing everywhere
  1252. # [23:07] <hober> Hixie: yes to your first question
  1253. # [23:07] <zewt> but you have to free up the URL at some point, or else a loop creating blob URLs would leak forever
  1254. # [23:07] * Quits: SonicX (~quassel@116.203.0.28) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1255. # [23:07] <annevk> zewt: it always uses the same identifier?
  1256. # [23:07] <hsivonen> espadrine: oh. cool
  1257. # [23:07] <zewt> no, it's different each time you create it
  1258. # [23:08] <annevk> zewt: right, so you need to free up the identifier at some point
  1259. # [23:08] <hober> Hixie: re: where it should hang off of, it would be nice if it were available to script before creating a canvas
  1260. # [23:08] * Quits: drollwit (~drollwit@c-67-183-156-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1261. # [23:08] <zewt> i don't follow what all the special casing is about
  1262. # [23:08] <annevk> zewt: and then the URL can succeed to parse, but simply references no existing identifier and therefore still fails
  1263. # [23:09] <zewt> the only possible per-spec thing I think might be needed is saying when the reference to the underlying blob data is released (and even that might not be needed--not sure)
  1264. # [23:09] * Joins: isherman (isherman@nat/google/x-skbjxatazmxgudba)
  1265. # [23:09] <Hixie> hober: how can you know it before knowing which canvas you're asking about? or are you saying there should not be a way for UAs to do it on a per-canvas basis?
  1266. # [23:09] <hober> Hixie: [also, while we're on this, i dislike the *HD names and would be happy with better ones. :)]
  1267. # [23:09] <zewt> see the pseudocode in my last post (to see if we're thinking of what resolve would do in the same way)?
  1268. # [23:09] <annevk> zewt: <img>.src = url; you're saying 1) that if that's a blob URL <img> somehow needs to store its payload data and 2) that when fetching it cannot fetch the blob URL but must fetch that payload data instead
  1269. # [23:09] * Hixie kinds likes the HD names :-P
  1270. # [23:09] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-86.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  1271. # [23:09] <Hixie> kinda, even
  1272. # [23:09] <hober> Hixie: yeah, we suggested them because we couldn't come up with better, but "least bad" != good
  1273. # [23:09] <annevk> zewt: so all APIs need 1) special storage and 2) special fetching
  1274. # [23:10] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.193.125.getinternet.no)
  1275. # [23:10] <zewt> annevk: no, resolve would handle 1) and fetch would handle 2)
  1276. # [23:10] <zewt> img doesn't care
  1277. # [23:10] <annevk> zewt: how does resolve handle it?
  1278. # [23:10] <zewt> see my last post on the bug
  1279. # [23:10] <annevk> zewt: so you're storing the data on the URL object?
  1280. # [23:11] <zewt> yeah, though it's just a string from what I understand
  1281. # [23:11] <annevk> zewt: what is just a string?
  1282. # [23:11] <zewt> (doesn't matter for these purposes)
  1283. # [23:11] <zewt> the result of "resolve a URL"
  1284. # [23:11] <zewt> not intimately familiar with that algorithm
  1285. # [23:11] <annevk> it's going to be an object of some kind
  1286. # [23:12] <annevk> and it's going to be called something with parsing
  1287. # [23:12] <hober> Hixie: re: exposing backingStorePixelRatio in a way that doesn't require you to create a canvas first, see dino's mail here: https://www.khronos.org/webgl/public-mailing-list/archives/1206/msg00193.html
  1288. # [23:12] <zewt> that's fine either way, the point is the blob data is attached to that result (which the caller API would mostly ignore, except that when it hands that URL to fetch, fetch now has access to it)
  1289. # [23:12] <zewt> which encapsulates most of this into those two algorithms
  1290. # [23:12] <hober> Hixie: if you do this naively, you create a huge canvas before you realize you shouldn't :(
  1291. # [23:13] * Quits: izhak (~izhak@188.244.179.234) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  1292. # [23:13] <annevk> zewt: I guess that works, and supposedly it's just a pointer on URL anyway so that can be shared
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  1294. # [23:13] <annevk> zewt: it's kind of ugly, but not more or less than what I came up with
  1295. # [23:13] <zewt> yeah it's a bit of a hack but the best I've thought of
  1296. # [23:13] <annevk> zewt: maybe a little more since it affects both parsing and fetching
  1297. # [23:13] * Quits: davatron5000 (~dave@cpe-66-25-175-141.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: davatron5000)
  1298. # [23:13] <annevk> but then mine changes URLs in weird ways
  1299. # [23:13] <zewt> i don't fully understand your idea
  1300. # [23:14] <Hixie> hober: i don't see how that contradicts the spec
  1301. # [23:14] <Tabatkins> hober: Ah, so it exposes the implicit multiplier, not the final multiplier. Cool. So it's 1 on iOS devices, right?
  1302. # [23:14] <annevk> global list of blob identifiers that can have a revoke flag set
  1303. # [23:14] <zewt> when is that list purged?
  1304. # [23:14] <hober> Tabatkins: right
  1305. # [23:14] <annevk> once a blob URL is parsed that references an identifier whose revoke flag is set, it's turned into about:invalid
  1306. # [23:14] <Hixie> hober: my problem is that if you are creating a canvas every few minutes, and the user is zooming every few minutes, you're going to want a different scale factor each time.
  1307. # [23:14] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.10.11)
  1308. # [23:15] <Hixie> hober: i guess we could say that each <canvas> gets a scale factor assigned at birth and that there's a global attribute that returns the scale factor the UA will use if you create a canvas immediately
  1309. # [23:15] <annevk> zewt: same as when identifiers cease to exist now
  1310. # [23:15] <zewt> "identifiers"?
  1311. # [23:15] <annevk> blob:identifier
  1312. # [23:15] <zewt> you mean blob URLs?
  1313. # [23:15] <zewt> (sorry if I'm being thick, I'm just missing a piece somewhere)
  1314. # [23:15] <annevk> a blob URL is blob: followed by the identifier
  1315. # [23:16] <zewt> but that wouldn't work
  1316. # [23:16] <annevk> but the identifier holds other concepts that are not part of the URL
  1317. # [23:16] <annevk> such as origin
  1318. # [23:16] <zewt> the URL->blob data mapping needs to outlive the blob URL itself
  1319. # [23:16] <annevk> right
  1320. # [23:17] <hober> Hixie: that would work for me
  1321. # [23:17] <annevk> identifier->data mapping outlives the time blob URL can be successfully parsed
  1322. # [23:17] <zewt> but didn't you say that the mappings would be purged when the blob URL (or "identifier"--not sure if you mean some distinction) is revoked
  1323. # [23:18] <annevk> once the revocation happens the identifier's revoke flag is set which causes further parsing of blob URLs using that identifier to fail (turn into about:invalid)
  1324. # [23:18] <zewt> but when are items removed from the mapping entirely?
  1325. # [23:18] <annevk> but if you already have a URL object with that specific blob URL it could still be fetched
  1326. # [23:18] <annevk> zewt: that's the same as your quality of implementation thingie
  1327. # [23:19] <zewt> feels fuzzier, but maybe just because i don't have as much of a mental handle on it
  1328. # [23:19] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@5ade2fae.bb.sky.com)
  1329. # [23:19] <annevk> afaict it's the same model
  1330. # [23:20] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  1331. # [23:20] <annevk> but I'm okay with special casing parsing, the URL object, and fetching
  1332. # [23:20] <zewt> i guess i think of a list/map of stuff that you insert into as needing to remove it explicitly, where attaching data to an object just feels GC-y
  1333. # [23:20] <annevk> need to find a better term for URL object, since there's also window.URL which is somewhat different
  1334. # [23:20] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
  1335. # [23:21] <zewt> guess if you call it a weakmap it makes more sense
  1336. # [23:21] <zewt> well anyway
  1337. # [23:22] <zewt> with the URL-property approach, do you think leaving releasing to QoI is good enough?
  1338. # [23:22] <zewt> one thing is that specs still need to pay attention to it, to make sure it results in the right conclusion
  1339. # [23:22] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.28.113) (Quit: nn)
  1340. # [23:23] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.57.129.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1341. # [23:24] <zewt> eg. that they don't accidentally require keeping blob references around longer than expected
  1342. # [23:24] <annevk> I guess reloading should fail afterwards? e.g. <iframe>.contentWindow.location.reload()
  1343. # [23:24] <zewt> (such as if xhr allowed calling send() multiple times per open(), that would have happened)
  1344. # [23:25] <zewt> hmm
  1345. # [23:25] <zewt> any time you're able to reload the data later it'd force keeping the blob around ... so it's a judgement call
  1346. # [23:26] <annevk> can't fetch just free it up?
  1347. # [23:27] <annevk> after fetch completes, clear it from the URL object?
  1348. # [23:27] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.193.125.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  1349. # [23:27] <annevk> so if the URL object is reused by the API after that, it fails
  1350. # [23:27] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:f47e:611c:4860:b5b9)
  1351. # [23:27] <annevk> and if the API reuses it before the fetch completes, it works
  1352. # [23:27] <zewt> i guess it could, with two caveats: 1: it'd prevent ever using it multiple times (maybe there's never any reason to) and 2: it'd still depend on QoI for freeing (because you might eg. never call xhr.send() at all)
  1353. # [23:28] <annevk> well yeah, unused objects that might be used will use memory
  1354. # [23:28] <annevk> not sure if there's a way around that
  1355. # [23:28] <zewt> i mean, after discarding the xhr object
  1356. # [23:29] <zewt> (if you call open() and then keep the xhr around forever and never send() it, yeah, keeping the blob around forever is what the user is asking for)
  1357. # [23:29] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-222.net-80-236-80.issy.rev.numericable.fr) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  1358. # [23:29] <annevk> yeah the implementation would need to make sure that the objects stored on the XHR object are freed
  1359. # [23:29] <annevk> including the URL object
  1360. # [23:29] <annevk> and everything it has
  1361. # [23:29] <annevk> that seems pretty straightforward though
  1362. # [23:30] <annevk> XHR.collect() -> will collect the associated URL object which will collect itself
  1363. # [23:30] <zewt> yeah
  1364. # [23:30] <annevk> not sure when there would be a multiple times scenario
  1365. # [23:31] <zewt> though you'd also want to release the blob ref when entering DONE, without waiting for GC (but that's also just QoI)
  1366. # [23:31] <annevk> if you enter done fetch has finished and you'd be required to
  1367. # [23:31] <Hixie> hm, i guess we'll need a createImageDataHD() version too
  1368. # [23:32] <zewt> Hixie: webgl decided to ignore how canvas handles pixel ratios, and make everyone do it by hand :(
  1369. # [23:32] <zewt> consistency smash
  1370. # [23:32] * Quits: thisgeek (~chris@ool-45757782.dyn.optonline.net) (Quit: thisgeek)
  1371. # [23:33] <annevk> main problem: fixing the URL spec will take a while
  1372. # [23:33] <annevk> but then File API has been taking a long time
  1373. # [23:33] <zewt> seems like this is doable with the current resolve algorithm as-is
  1374. # [23:33] <zewt> maybe not as cleanly as if it was returning a concrete object
  1375. # [23:34] <annevk> oh sure, some temporary hack could be fabricated
  1376. # [23:34] <annevk> not going to invest much time in that though
  1377. # [23:34] <zewt> i'm just afraid that if this gets held up, the terrible "oneTimeOnly" hack in IE will get a foothold
  1378. # [23:35] <annevk> I think if you add this model as a separate comment to the bug Arun should be able to define how it works in a hacky way
  1379. # [23:35] <annevk> then we'll clean it up once the URL spec is further along
  1380. # [23:36] <zewt> shouldn't this be defined in HTML anyway (since that's where fetch and resolve live)
  1381. # [23:37] <Hixie> zewt: they're screwed, their API has assumptions in it that means they have no choice
  1382. # [23:37] <zewt> Hixie: i gave them a way to do it consistently; they ignored me
  1383. # [23:37] <zewt> (or at least much more consistently than what they landed on)
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The end :)