/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-07-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jul 14 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <annevk> https://twitter.com/rybesh/status/223823857449041921 about teaching Microdata and RDFa
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  7. # [00:04] <Hixie> annevk: he must be biased
  8. # [00:04] <Hixie> :-P
  9. # [00:05] <zewt> hmm, i don't think microtasks are right for autoRevoke, but there are some quirks with stable states too
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  11. # [00:08] <Tabatkins> Ugh, the JS i18n API uses RangeError to mean "doesn't match one of the values in this enum". >_<
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  13. # [00:10] <Hixie> uh
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  35. # [00:38] <tantek> annevk - I've heard similar comparisons of microdata and RDFa, of course even more so I hear that they're both still too much of a bother (e.g. compared to microformats).
  36. # [00:39] <tantek> I was originally more optimistic about microdata, but it turns out it (and RDFa) suffer from the "bolt-on" problem (ala longdesc) - they're just not part of web designers' normal workflow, so they get ignored.
  37. # [00:39] <tantek> in contrast, all web designers spend time in class attributes, so to put in a few microformats classes while they're in there is anywhere from trivial to easy.
  38. # [00:41] <annevk> I find all of them too much of a bother typically :)
  39. # [00:41] <Hixie> aha, tantek!
  40. # [00:41] <annevk> haven't seen much useful stuff done with them
  41. # [00:42] * Hixie agrees with anne :-)
  42. # [00:42] <zewt> as a web developer i have no idea what either of them are, and the drama around both of them makes me not very interested in finding out :)
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  44. # [00:43] <tantek> indeed, if it doesn't seem useful to you, then don't bother is a reasonable short-term prioritization approach
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  46. # [00:44] <tantek> annevk - "too much of a bother" - often true unfortunately, no matter what markup we're talking about (from <section> to <abbr> to RDFa)
  47. # [00:45] <annevk> yeah, I stopped using <abbr> too
  48. # [00:45] <annevk> that's something dictionaries can solve
  49. # [00:45] <tantek> it's pretty clear from years of teach web designers, that one must demonstrate that some semantic markup provides benefits to them that outweighs the "bother" in order for them to do it and keep doing it.
  50. # [00:46] <annevk> <section> I might use if I had more complex sites
  51. # [00:46] <tantek> this can be improved by increasing the benefits received, or lowering the amount of bother, or both.
  52. # [00:46] <annevk> currently using <h2> works for me
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  54. # [00:47] <Hixie> i wish i had <section> available when i started the html spec
  55. # [00:47] <Hixie> that would have made moving stuff around way easier
  56. # [00:47] <Hixie> as it is now i have a horrible tangle of pragmas to bump the hx numbers up and down on output
  57. # [00:47] <tantek> with microformats 2, we're focusing first on lowering the "bother" (since that worked for microformats in the first place, as compared to things like XML data islands etc.).
  58. # [00:47] <annevk> ah yeah, for that it's super useful
  59. # [00:47] <annevk> that would be useful on the WHATWG blog too
  60. # [00:47] <tantek> does anything actually support <section> scoped Hn tags?
  61. # [00:48] <annevk> tantek: microformats though has a lot of nonsense
  62. # [00:48] <annevk> e.g. class=url on <a>
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  64. # [00:48] <annevk> although I think that's being removed now
  65. # [00:49] <tantek> annevk - yeah, we tried just saying let all <a> links mean something, and that resulted in too many false positives. however, the class=url has been removed on simple hyperlinked things.
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  67. # [00:49] <tantek> and I'd say your instinct is in general a good one, if some markup feels like nonsense, then avoid it.
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  69. # [00:50] <tantek> annevk - what's being removed? the section scoped Hn thing?
  70. # [00:50] <annevk> learned it the hard way
  71. # [00:50] <annevk> came from the "it's in the spec so it makes sense" camp
  72. # [00:50] <annevk> tantek: making class=url optional
  73. # [00:54] <annevk> tantek: dunno about <section> scoped <h1>-<h6> apart from that not having to renumber headings would be useful
  74. # [00:54] <tantek> agreed that it would be useful. I just keep wondering if anyone is going to implement it.
  75. # [00:54] <tantek> sorry, not "useful" but rather, "less of a bother"
  76. # [00:54] <annevk> btw zewt, please don't quote in Bugzilla if it's directly in reply to the previous comment
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  78. # [00:55] <annevk> tantek: dunno about that, cost is quite high, benefit not that big
  79. # [00:55] <annevk> controls are where the real benefit is at I think
  80. # [00:56] <annevk> such as <dialog>
  81. # [00:56] <annevk> some way to do a dropdown without lots of scripting would be cool too
  82. # [00:57] <annevk> nn
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  92. # [01:15] <Hixie> should createImageDataHD() also have the imagedata argument variant? It'd be identical to the non-HD version... (/cc hober)
  93. # [01:16] <Tabatkins> For usability, I'd say yes.
  94. # [01:18] <Hixie> that's what i was thinking, but i wonder if it'll confuse people, thinking it's a way to convert a low-res imageData to a high res one or something...
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  100. # [01:39] * hober doesn't have a strong opinion either way
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  193. # [06:20] <Yuhong> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2001Mar/0023.html
  194. # [06:20] <Yuhong> about document.all and document.getElementById
  195. # [06:20] <Yuhong> from 2001 before IE6 was released by Hixie.
  196. # [06:21] <Yuhong> from 2001 before IE6 was released, by Hixie.
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  208. # [06:47] <jackjack> Hello, everyone!
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  210. # [06:47] <jackjack> is there anyone who is familiar with HTML tokenization states?
  211. # [06:48] * Joins: isherman (isherman@nat/google/x-kttuxsqiibgzukfr)
  212. # [06:48] <jackjack> I need a little help
  213. # [06:48] <jackjack> Thanks!
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  216. # [06:53] <espadrine`> jackjack: do you have a question?
  217. # [06:54] <jackjack> Yes, as mentioned by HTML standards: " In some cases, the tokenizer state is also changed by the tree construction stage.
  218. # [06:54] <jackjack> "
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  220. # [06:55] <jackjack> I am wondering what are the "some cases"?
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  224. # [06:58] <jackjack>  "The exact behavior of certain states depends on the insertion mode and the stack of open elements."
  225. # [06:59] <jackjack> What are those "certain states" ?
  226. # [06:59] <jackjack> Anyone can help me ?
  227. # [07:01] <espadrine`> I would assume that this has to do with document.write, but I cannot assert that for sure
  228. # [07:04] <espadrine`> although it's bad to use document.write
  229. # [07:04] <espadrine`> cats die when you do that
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  245. # [08:07] <SimonSapin> Tabatkins: Looking at your new CSS parser now. Do you exepect to have JS tests for it? How would these relate to a test suite for the spec?
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  254. # [08:50] <jwalden> gsnedders: the yak-shaving and the __proto__ patch test out and are posted for review now!
  255. # [08:50] <jwalden> \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/
  256. # [08:51] <jwalden> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=773850 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=770344 if you care
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  258. # [08:53] <espadrine`> yay for __proto__!
  259. # [08:53] <espadrine`> not sure what yak-shaving does though
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  269. # [09:27] <jwalden> boo for __proto__
  270. # [09:27] <jwalden> but yay for its being implemented sanely, if it must be implemented at all
  271. # [09:28] <jwalden> the yak-shaving was some API cleanup/improvement over what we had before, which was thoroughly bizarre and unreadable
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  278. # [09:48] <annevk> jackjack: <plaintext>, <script>, and such cause the tokenizer to change from the parser
  279. # [09:49] <annevk> jackjack: espadrine: document.write() just injects into the character stream, it does not actually change state (although the characters it injects could of course)
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  283. # [10:17] <rniwa> annevk: not sure if you've read my rant about htmlcollection but can we somehow name HTML*Collection::namedItem saner?
  284. # [10:17] <rniwa> annevk: as is, it's implementation/API nightmare.
  285. # [10:17] <rniwa> somehow make*
  286. # [10:21] <Ms2ger> "<Yuhong> from 2001 before IE6 was released by Hixie."
  287. # [10:21] * Ms2ger didn't read that as intended
  288. # [10:21] <annevk> how was that intended?
  289. # [10:21] <Ms2ger> A comma after "released"
  290. # [10:21] <annevk> rniwa: I recommend filing a bug on Gecko and Opera to see if they agree to implement saner behavior
  291. # [10:22] <rniwa> annevk: i don't think neither Gecko nor Opera implements what the spec says.
  292. # [10:22] <Ms2ger> rniwa, and test if we don't do that already :)
  293. # [10:22] <annevk> rniwa: if Hixie disagrees the simplest approach is to convince the other vendors of your right
  294. # [10:22] <rniwa> annevk: hixie mention that there are some comat. issues :\
  295. # [10:22] <rniwa> mentions*
  296. # [10:22] <annevk> rniwa: no he presumes there are
  297. # [10:23] <rniwa> annevk: hm... maybe i should try that then.
  298. # [10:24] <annevk> there might be compat issues and the people that can tell you are the other vendors
  299. # [10:24] <annevk> but sometimes e.g. Gecko is willing to take a small short term hit for long term API improvements
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  303. # [10:34] <rniwa> annevk: yeah, Mozilla is good at that.
  304. # [10:34] <rniwa> annevk: wish we could do the same in WebKit :\
  305. # [10:35] <rniwa> annevk: but we have some constraints :(
  306. # [10:35] <annevk> you can in Chromium ;)
  307. # [10:35] <rniwa> annevk: oh well, we try not to diverse too much between ports
  308. # [10:35] <rniwa> annevk: we don't want to end up with 4-5 different flavors of webkit :)
  309. # [10:36] <rniwa> annevk: arguably, we're more liberal about changing web-facing APIs than other ports but still.
  310. # [10:37] * Quits: ^esc (~esc_ape@178.115.250.58.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  311. # [10:38] <Ms2ger> And here I thought you already had ended up with 4-5 different flavours of webkit :)
  312. # [10:39] <rniwa> Ms2ger: noooo. don't point out the painful fact.
  313. # [10:39] <Ms2ger> :D
  314. # [10:40] <rniwa> Ms2ger: ironically, i use firefox on my android tablet because that's the only browser available on my ICS tablet that reliably lets me review/comment on bugs.webkit.org
  315. # [10:41] <Ms2ger> Yw ;)
  316. # [10:41] <Ms2ger> Now, what do you think about Chrome-on-Gecko? :)
  317. # [10:42] * Joins: ^esc (~esc_ape@178.115.251.223.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  318. # [10:43] <rniwa> Ms2ger: you mean chrome inside BtG?
  319. # [10:43] <rniwa> BtoG*
  320. # [10:43] <rniwa> or was it B2G?
  321. # [10:43] <espadrine> rniwa: Firefox OS now
  322. # [10:43] <rniwa> espadrine: oh, that's right.
  323. # [10:43] <rniwa> espadrine, Ms2ger: so you want Chrome on Firefox OS?
  324. # [10:43] <Ms2ger> No, I want Chrome to get rid of webkit and use Gecko instead :)
  325. # [10:44] <rniwa> Ms2ger: oh... not sure about that.
  326. # [10:44] <rniwa> Ms2ger: you guys don't support multi process model still :\
  327. # [10:44] <rniwa> Ms2ger: and don't support all those webkit extensions.
  328. # [10:44] <rniwa> Ms2ger: anyway, i think it's nice to have competition between different browser engines
  329. # [10:44] <Ms2ger> That's coming soon enough
  330. # [10:45] <rniwa> Ms2ger: maybe we'll consider once you've removed all the comments in your code :)
  331. # [10:45] <Ms2ger> Hah
  332. # [10:45] * Joins: isherman (isherman@nat/google/x-txkvmwqsebkbyobf)
  333. # [10:45] <Ms2ger> To make it look more like webkit? :)
  334. # [10:46] <rniwa> Ms2ger: http://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2012-July/thread.html
  335. # [10:46] * Ms2ger snorts
  336. # [10:47] <Ms2ger> Hey, if you join us, you don't need to write ChangeLog entries ;)
  337. # [10:47] <espadrine> although you will need to struggle with mercurial queues
  338. # [10:48] <rniwa> Ms2ger: no, i love change logs :)
  339. # [10:48] <rniwa> espadrine: must use svn ;)
  340. # [10:48] <Ms2ger> Shrug, MQ is nice
  341. # [10:49] <espadrine> ouch. svn. I thought webkit people all used git as an svn front-end
  342. # [10:49] <rniwa> espadrine: no.
  343. # [10:49] <rniwa> espadrine: i actually prefer svn over git
  344. # [10:49] <rniwa> espadrine: git is way too complicated for my work flow
  345. # [10:50] <rniwa> espadrine, Ms2ger: if i do join mozilla, you'll find out how "unconventional" and how unhip i am :)
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  347. # [10:50] <Ms2ger> rniwa, we hate git too ;)
  348. # [10:51] <Ms2ger> Except the a-team and webdev
  349. # [10:51] <rniwa> Ms2ger: http://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2012-March/019808.html for your enjoyment
  350. # [10:51] <rniwa> or http://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2012-March/thread.html
  351. # [10:51] <Ms2ger> WebKittens?
  352. # [10:51] <rniwa> yeah
  353. # [10:52] <espadrine> one day we'll all have to move to git anyway
  354. # [10:53] <espadrine> Servo is handled by git :)
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  356. # [10:53] <rniwa> espadrine: i'm not convinced.
  357. # [10:53] <espadrine> rniwa: don't worry, I won't make the elevator pitch.
  358. # [10:54] <rniwa> anyway, i have a serious problem with people who advocate for one-fits-all solution.
  359. # [10:56] <rniwa> they irritate me to no end
  360. # [10:56] <rniwa> just like people who jokingly talk about everything would have been easy if we all spoke English, etc...
  361. # [10:57] <Ms2ger> Imagine how many would speak en-AU then
  362. # [11:02] <rniwa> Ms2ger: I had a Scottish English teacher who lied in Ireland for years.
  363. # [11:02] <rniwa> lived*
  364. # [11:02] <Ms2ger> The original was more fascinating
  365. # [11:02] * Ms2ger imagines an obsessive liar in a kilt
  366. # [11:03] <Ms2ger> ... walking through the Irish countryside
  367. # [11:03] <rniwa> hehehe
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  369. # [11:04] <rniwa> Ms2ger: actually, Dublin is the only city in Europe i've been to.
  370. # [11:04] * rniwa is excited about TPAC in Lyon :)
  371. # [11:04] <Ms2ger> For the beer? :)
  372. # [11:04] <rniwa> Ms2ger: i was 17 at the time
  373. # [11:04] <rniwa> Ms2ger: so no beer for me.
  374. # [11:05] <Ms2ger> I see
  375. # [11:05] * Ms2ger is never excited about TPAC
  376. # [11:07] <volkmar> Hixie: for the autocompletetype, my opinion (and bz when we talked) is that it is a very bad idea and we can solve that we current input types
  377. # [11:07] <volkmar> I've never found time to reply though, still in my todo list
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  379. # [11:09] <espadrine> volkmar: you mean, by having a better "name=" de-facto standard?
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  437. # [14:54] <gsnedders> Exciting times in ES land, trying to subvert what some people want…
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  446. # [15:41] <annevk> gsnedders: isn't that what usually happens? :)
  447. # [15:46] <gsnedders> annevk: No, not in ES land.
  448. # [15:47] <annevk> ES4?
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  450. # [15:48] <gsnedders> Well, that wasn't so much subvertion as just outright refusal to implement something they'd never been involved in. But I was really meaning Harmony onwards.
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  452. # [15:55] <annevk> gsnedders: so what's going on?
  453. # [15:55] <gsnedders> __proto__, and whether it should be an accessor property or not.
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  456. # [16:04] <annevk> I should invest time in learning JavaScript again at some point
  457. # [16:08] <annevk> Ms2ger: re the addendum stuff, writing time != publication time
  458. # [16:09] <annevk> e.g. Linköping story was well over a year old
  459. # [16:09] <annevk> the /\
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  548. # [20:34] <zewt> grr no onerror for <link rel=stylesheet> on ios
  549. # [20:36] <zewt> at least <script defer> works
  550. # [20:40] <zewt> no onerror, yet onload works
  551. # [20:40] <zewt> guess i might be able to fudge it with that
  552. # [20:40] <zewt> wait, it doesn't work; oh well
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  582. # [22:00] <Hixie> volkmar: please make sure to reply on the list soon, because right now all the feedback is positive and i'm ready to spec it
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  586. # [22:09] <Yuhong> BTW, it is unfortunate that it took until just after Gecko introduced Almost Standards Mode before the first draft of CSS 2.1 was introduced.
  587. # [22:12] <Yuhong> *published.
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  594. # [22:21] <jackjack> annevk: espadrine': thanks for answering my question.
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  622. # [23:50] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.57.129.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  623. # [23:56] * Quits: sarspazam (~sarspazam@78-105-183-7.zone3.bethere.co.uk) (Quit: sarspazam)
  624. # Session Close: Sun Jul 15 00:00:00 2012

The end :)