/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-07-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jul 16 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  26. # [01:14] <Hixie> how do i work out the size of the viewport in JS?
  27. # [01:15] <Hixie> document.documentElement.clientHeight and clientWindth?
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  31. # [01:27] <espadrine`> Hixie: innerHeight and innerWidth, I think
  32. # [01:28] <Hixie> innerheight and width give the element's content area width or some such
  33. # [01:28] <Hixie> there's no element that's the size of the viewport
  34. # [01:28] <espadrine`> cssom-view defined innerWidth as "the viewport width including the size of a rendered scroll bar (if any)"
  35. # [01:29] <Hixie> oh. on what object then?
  36. # [01:29] <espadrine`> on window
  37. # [01:29] <Hixie> not on an Element i assume
  38. # [01:29] <Hixie> ohhhh
  39. # [01:29] <Hixie> ok
  40. # [01:29] <Hixie> that might work
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  60. # [02:08] <zewt> what the
  61. # [02:08] <zewt> chrome doesn't have modal alert()?
  62. # [02:08] <zewt> wow
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  208. # [10:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: the other day, you were trying to find spec changes "Mozilla" wants. Have you noticed that Mozilla is reviving the inputmode attribute (with different values if I understand correctly)?
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  229. # [11:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: this thing uses the W3C's servers as its back end, right? http://w3clove.com/plans-and-pricing
  230. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah I believe it does
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  232. # [11:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: mildly interesting that the front end talks about priority levels then
  233. # [11:17] <hsivonen> but I guess there are priorities in the front end queue
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  262. # [13:44] <Ms2ger> (CVS $Revision: 87e938c14c3f $)
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  279. # [14:03] <hsivonen> so now I have to figure out what the navigation timing spec says about restoration from the BF cache...
  280. # [14:04] <hsivonen> restore from BF cache isn't supposed to fire a readystatechange, is it?
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  283. # [14:07] <hsivonen> nice. the navigation timing spec doesn't cover BF cache
  284. # [14:07] <hsivonen> sigh.
  285. # [14:07] <hsivonen> let's see if HTML5 does
  286. # [14:07] <hsivonen> or HTML LS rather
  287. # [14:10] <hsivonen> hooray. HTML LS actually covers BF cache and it's pretty clear my assertions found a Gecko bug
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  289. # [14:10] <hsivonen> I hope no one is depending on the bug yet...
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  293. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> \o/
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  299. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> BF cache?
  300. # [14:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: back/forward cache for Document objects
  301. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> OK
  302. # [14:44] <hsivonen> the next time someone gives a gift like readyState, we should be more careful about making sure the gift comes with unit tests
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  305. # [14:54] <hsivonen> } else {
  306. # [14:54] <hsivonen> // XXX: Should fire error event to the document...
  307. # [14:54] <hsivonen> }
  308. # [14:55] <hsivonen> doesn't look exactly compliant there
  309. # [14:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: sorry about the tone of my latest email in the readyState thread. I'm rather frustrated about this not being a bug fix in the past yet.
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  351. # [16:30] <hsivonen> how fun. removing-editable-xslt.html
  352. # [16:30] <hsivonen> because everyone wants to have editable XSLT
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  357. # [16:35] <[tm]> hahaha
  358. # [16:36] <hsivonen> the generated documents for image, video, audio and plug-in URLs (when loaded alone in a browsing context) and XSLT documents are my least favority kind of documents
  359. # [16:36] <hsivonen> after about:blank of course
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  363. # [16:39] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, well, fortunately nobody scripts the those :)
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  367. # [16:43] <[tm]> if browser vendors would just implement xslt 3.0 I'm sure it would solve all those problems
  368. # [16:46] <[tm]> seriously though xpath and xslt are still a better API than the standard DOM
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  406. # [18:09] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  416. # [18:33] <kennyluck> good night, Whatwg!
  417. # [18:34] <espadrine`> kennyluck: are you doing the opposite of what dglazkov is doing every morning?
  418. # [18:35] <kennyluck> espadrine`, sort of, but I am about to go to bed too.
  419. # [18:36] <espadrine`> good night then!
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  444. # [19:25] <annevk> dglazkov: kennyluck: it's WHATWG \o/
  445. # [19:25] <annevk> also happy e-day
  446. # [19:26] <espadrine`> annevk: what's an e-day?
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  450. # [19:35] <annevk> not sure, but I meant it as a timezone neutral greeting
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  454. # [19:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: ah, excellent, just the kind of thing i was looking for. do you have any links to that? there's some bugs asking for inputmode but they're all stuck on people doing some research so we can work out what it actually needs to be
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  456. # [19:44] <Hixie> annevk: try "hi" :-P
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  458. # [19:46] <Hixie> hsivonen: "Firefox, IE10, and Opera" is less than 50% of the market, what are you talking about "rocking the interop boat"?
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  460. # [19:47] <Hixie> especially since in the text you quote you point out firefox isn't doing the same thing either
  461. # [19:48] <gsnedders> jwalden: Yay!
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  469. # [19:53] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yt?
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  480. # [20:05] <bencc> shepazu: you were the one recommending fakesmile?
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  504. # [20:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: Firefox currently fires the event you say shouldn't fire
  505. # [20:58] <hsivonen> the way current Firefox differs from what I want is its omission to transition to "interactive"
  506. # [21:00] <Hixie> firing DOMContentLoaded doesn't make much sense if you're not firing 'load'
  507. # [21:00] <Hixie> and firing DOMContentLoaded when you haven't loaded the DOM content is silly IMHO
  508. # [21:00] <Hixie> i don't see what possible advantage it would be to authors
  509. # [21:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: about inputmode: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=746142
  510. # [21:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: I see no advantage in not firing it
  511. # [21:03] <Hixie> do you plan to fire 'load'?
  512. # [21:03] <hsivonen> no. not because I think it makes sense not to but because everyone refrains from firing it
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  516. # [21:08] <Hixie> hsivonen: refrain from firing DOMContentLoaded and then most people will refrain from firing that, too
  517. # [21:08] <Hixie> s/people/browsers/
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  519. # [21:08] <Hixie> hsivonen: DOMContentLoaded is basically the same event as 'load', just before scripts
  520. # [21:08] <Hixie> hsivonen: it would be silly to fire one and not the other, IMHO
  521. # [21:08] <Hixie> hsivonen: and very confusing to authors
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  542. # [22:07] <annevk> not sure anyone cares, but @WHATWG is nearing 6666
  543. # [22:08] <Hixie> 6666 what?
  544. # [22:08] <Tabatkins> tweets, presumably
  545. # [22:08] <annevk> followers
  546. # [22:09] <annevk> tweets is 3752
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  548. # [22:12] <Hixie> are we still tweeting all the non-editorial changes?
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  550. # [22:12] <annevk> yes
  551. # [22:13] <Hixie> man, that's 6666 crazy people
  552. # [22:13] <annevk> we omit things that say "typo" and "xref"
  553. # [22:13] <annevk> the editorial stuff is quite popular sometimes
  554. # [22:13] <Hixie> heh
  555. # [22:14] <annevk> people retweet things like "fix obsolete non-normative text"
  556. # [22:14] <Hixie> o_O
  557. # [22:14] <annevk> and pay no attention to normative changes
  558. # [22:14] <annevk> I'm not sure how this works
  559. # [22:15] * abstractj|lunch is now known as abstractj
  560. # [22:16] <Hixie> maybe instead of createImageDataHD i should just have a third argument that takes the scale factor
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  562. # [22:17] <Hixie> nah
  563. # [22:17] <Hixie> it's tied to a canvas
  564. # [22:17] <Hixie> ok
  565. # [22:17] <Hixie> createImageDataHD it is
  566. # [22:17] <hober> it's hard to feature detect optional args v. new methodas
  567. # [22:17] <hober> err, methods
  568. # [22:19] <annevk> so there will be a new object ImageDataHD too/
  569. # [22:19] <annevk> ?
  570. # [22:19] <Tabatkins> hober: One reason I'm excited about @supports - makes it easier to feature-detect new values in existing properties.
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  588. # [23:08] <Hixie> hober: doesn't .length return the length of the longer one?
  589. # [23:08] <Hixie> annevk: no
  590. # [23:09] <Hixie> hober: (and yeah, i went back to the HD idea anyway)
  591. # [23:09] <Hixie> hober: what was the attribute you wanted, again, btw?
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  600. # [23:22] <Tabatkins> hsivonen: Some discussion about <template> led to an interesting insight.
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  602. # [23:23] <Tabatkins> hsivonen: Regarding <iframe srcdoc>, it was designed as an attribute to make escaping easier, but ignoring that, it would obviously have been easier to do a <sandbox> element, where you just put in user content directly.
  603. # [23:24] <Tabatkins> hsivonen: In that case, you'd have elements parsed as part of the outer document, but bundled up into a separate document hanging off of the main doc instead.
  604. # [23:24] <Tabatkins> hsivonen: Which is, of course, essentially identical to what <template> does.
  605. # [23:24] <Tabatkins> hsivonen: Do your arguments against <template> apply equally to <sandbox>? Or are there significant differences that I'm not seeing?
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  609. # [23:27] <othermaciej> Tabatkins: the reason a <sandbox> element wouldn't work is that it's too hard to prevent hostile content prematurely closing the <sandbox> tag
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  611. # [23:27] <Tabatkins> Yes, I referred to that above. That's why we used an attribute instead of an element.
  612. # [23:27] <Tabatkins> But disregarding that consideration, @srcdoc is effectively embedding a second document into the content of the first, inline.
  613. # [23:28] <Tabatkins> Basically I'm just probing at hsivonen's internal consistency here, to see if there are good reasons to be against one and not the other.
  614. # [23:28] <Hixie> it's much like what <style> and <script> already do
  615. # [23:28] <Tabatkins> Yeah.
  616. # [23:28] <Hixie> i suppose we could have <template> wrk more like those
  617. # [23:28] <Hixie> have the text be in the outer doc
  618. # [23:28] <Hixie> and then have a parsed dom hang off the side
  619. # [23:29] <othermaciej> since <sandbox> is hypothetical, I'm not sure it's a useful query of hsivonen's views
  620. # [23:29] <Hixie> much like how <style> has a textContent node unparsed, and a CSSOM off the side, post-parse
  621. # [23:29] <othermaciej> since being for or against it has no consequence
  622. # [23:29] <Tabatkins> othermaciej: Just checking. If hsivonen would be okay with <sandbox> (ignoring the security consideration), then I'd be curious why, and how that applies to his arguments against <template>.
  623. # [23:29] <othermaciej> if you made <template> work like that, then presumably in xhtml, you would have to escape its contents as a CDATA section
  624. # [23:30] <Tabatkins> Hixie: No problem with that from me.
  625. # [23:30] <Tabatkins> othermaciej: I guess, yeah.
  626. # [23:30] <Hixie> <template> as specced just doesn't work in xhtml
  627. # [23:30] <Hixie> as proposed, i should say
  628. # [23:30] <othermaciej> if <sandbox> was inline, then it might not want to create a subframe and a separate document
  629. # [23:30] <Tabatkins> If that was the objection, and saying "just escape as CDATA" gets around it, that's not a problem. ^_^
  630. # [23:30] <Hixie> or maybe "as specced" is right, the proposal is pretty detailed :-)
  631. # [23:31] <Tabatkins> othermaciej: I think most of the sandboxing stuff would be very annoying / error-prone to implement if you didn't use a separate document.
  632. # [23:31] <Hixie> othermaciej: we used a subframe for its security properties
  633. # [23:31] <othermaciej> I have to admit I don't really understand the reasons why <template> can't be in the normal DOM
  634. # [23:31] <Hixie> othermaciej: it's similar to sandboxing, actually. you need a way to neuter all the features. forms, images. etc.
  635. # [23:32] <annevk> also selectors
  636. # [23:32] <othermaciej> I don't understand why selectors have to be neutered (that argument somewhat confuses me) and I don't understand how a separate document helps w/ those other aspects
  637. # [23:32] <annevk> you can theoretically do the others by adding conditionals
  638. # [23:32] <Tabatkins> Yeah, just like sandboxing, you *can* do it in the same document, but it's way easier conceptually (and you're less likely to have errors) if you do it as a separate doc.
  639. # [23:33] <Tabatkins> othermaciej: You get them for free! Disconnected documents don't load anything, don't contribute to forms, don't match against selectors from the outer document...
  640. # [23:33] <othermaciej> preventing script execution and subdocument loading and the like is already a conditional in WebKit's DOM, you'd merely need to change the condition
  641. # [23:33] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@212.238.236.229) (Remote host closed the connection)
  642. # [23:33] <othermaciej> er, subresource loading
  643. # [23:33] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@host-89-242-61-195.as13285.net) (Quit: barnabywalters)
  644. # [23:34] <othermaciej> like, there's nothing about how XHR-loaded documents do those things that intrinsically needs to be document-scoped
  645. # [23:34] <othermaciej> selector matching is the only anomaly, and I am not sure why it needs to be one (maybe I would if I read more about it)
  646. # [23:35] <Hixie> othermaciej: you want to neuter everything. appearing in document.images, appearing in an ancestor's form.elements, appearing in an ancestor select.options, form submission, creating of nested browsing contexts, running scripts, etc etc etc
  647. # [23:35] <Hixie> othermaciej: there are so many places we'd have to add checks it would be unmanageable
  648. # [23:35] <othermaciej> I think <template> has a hard problem that it won't be able to offer any of its features as currently designed unless you require some sort of escaping of the content
  649. # [23:35] <othermaciej> er, won't be able to offer them in non-supporting browsers
  650. # [23:35] * Quits: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:a00f:3ea1:7c16:dffc) (Quit: jonlee)
  651. # [23:36] <Hixie> i think the idea is to make <template> work exactly like XHR-loaded documents
  652. # [23:36] <othermaciej> so the more differences it has from normal content, yet without escaping, the harder it is to use
  653. # [23:36] <Hixie> (except inline)
  654. # [23:36] <othermaciej> unless you wait until the hypothetical day when all browsers have it
  655. # [23:36] <Tabatkins> Hixie: I think that's right, yeah.
  656. # [23:36] <othermaciej> or to put it another way, it doesn't degrade gracefully
  657. # [23:36] <Tabatkins> othermaciej: Those hypothetical days come sooner all the time. ^_^
  658. # [23:36] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-xfoczzjckirvliew)
  659. # [23:36] <Hixie> yeah, it definitely doesn't degrade that well as proposed
  660. # [23:37] <Hixie> we've tried a graceful degradation approach before (see web forms 2's repetition model), it wasn't that great
  661. # [23:37] <Tabatkins> We're okay with pushing on a good idea even if it'll be a few years before it's usable in practice. Degrading is great, but you can't always degrade gracefully.
  662. # [23:37] <othermaciej> Tabatkins: I wonder if a version of the feature that has the templates out-of-line or escaped would be viable
  663. # [23:37] * Joins: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:f1a2:7fed:af0a:f865)
  664. # [23:37] <Hixie> certainly if someone can come up with a way to make it degrade, i'd be all for it
  665. # [23:37] <othermaciej> are those options so bad that it's worth the greater transition cost?
  666. # [23:37] <Tabatkins> othermaciej: We're down with out-of-band templates too. If that's the way you ahve to use them until support evolves (parsing on your own in legacy browsers), that's also fine.
  667. # [23:38] <othermaciej> <template src="foo.html#id"></template>, the way to degrade is use XHR
  668. # [23:38] <Hixie> Tabatkins: have they (you? we?) considered doing something like srcdoc="" for <template>?
  669. # [23:38] <othermaciej> that would have an excellent graceful degradation story
  670. # [23:38] <Tabatkins> Hixie: I don't think we have.
  671. # [23:38] <othermaciej> <template srcdoc=""> would also have a good story
  672. # [23:38] <Hixie> might be worth looking at
  673. # [23:38] <othermaciej> if you give up on "inline template as normal markup", all the issues go away
  674. # [23:39] <othermaciej> where "give up" might just mean "don't focus on initially"
  675. # [23:39] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  676. # [23:40] <Tabatkins> It's kinda nasty, but if it's a second inline option alongside proper children, that sounds like it would be palatable.
  677. # [23:42] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:149:4:1b01:695b:1763:9007:e547) (Quit: jernoble)
  678. # [23:44] * Quits: SonicX (~quassel@116.203.28.174) (Remote host closed the connection)
  679. # [23:46] * Quits: thisgeek (~chris@ool-45757782.dyn.optonline.net) (Quit: thisgeek)
  680. # [23:47] <hober> Hixie: (sorry for the delay) a static attr on HTMLCanvasElement, window, or something like that which is "the backingStorePixelRatio that you'll get if you create a new canvas right now."
  681. # [23:47] <Hixie> no preferred name or location though?
  682. # [23:50] * Hixie discovers that toDataURL and toBlob aren't actually required to return the canvas' image at all
  683. # [23:50] <Hixie> oops
  684. # [23:52] <hober> I don't have a particular name or location preference, no, so long as you don't need to instantiate a canvas to get at it
  685. # [23:53] <Hixie> do we have a spec that specs window.screen? maybe that'd be a good place for it
  686. # [23:55] <hober> that's a pretty reasonable place, yeah. AFAIK there's no spec for window.screen though. :(
  687. # [23:55] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#screen !
  688. # [23:55] <Hixie> we do have it!
  689. # [23:55] <Hixie> awesome
  690. # [23:56] <Hixie> man i wish anne was still editing those specs
  691. # [23:56] <Hixie> anyone know who i have to speak to to get things added to that?
  692. # [23:56] <hober> "Editor's Draft 13 March 2012" sadface. they were supposed to update the ED last week...
  693. # [23:56] <Tabatkins> I'm gonna poke the thread again.
  694. # [23:57] <Hixie> oh that's those specs that are in limbo isn't it
  695. # [23:57] <hober> yup
  696. # [23:57] <Tabatkins> Yup. I'll pick them up in September if they stay in limbo.
  697. # [23:57] <Hixie> aren't you, like, already under a pile of specs three miles high
  698. # [23:58] <Tabatkins> Your point?
  699. # [23:58] <Hixie> yeah i guess glass houses and all...
  700. # Session Close: Tue Jul 17 00:00:00 2012

The end :)