/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-07-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 19 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Yuhong> Remember Netscape "Mariner"?
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  7. # [00:05] <annevk_> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=WHATWG&component=HTML&;resolution=--- sweet!
  8. # [00:05] <annevk_> nice work Mike and Hixie!
  9. # [00:05] <Hixie> volkmar: any help on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Text_input_keyboard_mode_control would be awesome, i'm having great trouble learning anything about non-English IMEs and input modes
  10. # [00:05] <Hixie> annevk_: :-)
  11. # [00:05] <Yuhong> WaSP refers to Web Standards Project.
  12. # [00:05] <Yuhong> WaSP refers to Web Standards Project, of course.
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  15. # [00:08] <Yuhong> Also see: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=netscape%20cannot%20win&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mozillazine.org%2Ftalkback.html%3Farticle%3D1708&ei=mzEHUKWZAcelrQHX1r3bCA&usg=AFQjCNGQU0fG-3MvSFWRNwIMn7O4cEkSkQ&cad=rja
  16. # [00:08] <Yuhong> http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=1708
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  18. # [00:08] <Yuhong> Sorry.
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  20. # [00:10] <volkmar> Hixie: do you want me to point to the list we thought about adding?
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  25. # [00:14] <annevk_> volkmar: the use cases for the list
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  27. # [00:17] <volkmar> sure
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  30. # [00:20] <volkmar> annevk, Hixie : can one of you creates me an account on the wiki?
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  32. # [00:20] <annevk> sure
  33. # [00:20] <annevk> email?
  34. # [00:20] <volkmar> mounir@lamouri.fr
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  36. # [00:21] <annevk> done
  37. # [00:22] <Velmont> Bah, I alwas write w3.org/Public/bugs when it' sthe other way around.
  38. # [00:23] <annevk> W3C URLs are confusing
  39. # [00:23] <annevk> but at least they don't change
  40. # [00:23] <Velmont> They're some cool URI's in that way ;-)
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  45. # [00:30] <volkmar> annevk, Hixie: i added something to the wiki
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  48. # [00:31] <volkmar> all of those are implementable on Androd
  49. # [00:31] <volkmar> *Android
  50. # [00:31] <volkmar> actually, I should push the patches...
  51. # [00:33] <annevk> Hixie: closed some bogus bugs
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  93. # [01:42] <Velmont> Was is a good "dagger stop" to use is javascript? someone is using "z", but that's hardly the last letter in the alphabet. I guess I don't want \uffff but rather something not *too* strange (so it doesn't uncover stupid sleeping browser bugs :P)
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  97. # [01:45] <Velmont> Hmmm, \uffff seems to work in Dragonfly at least. Will propose than then. :P Just hoping it isn't best practice ;]
  98. # [01:46] <pablof> Am i misunderstanding something or are the descriptions of setRangeText's selectionModes "select" and "preserve" switched? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#textFieldSelection
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  101. # [01:56] <pablof> Hixie: ^
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  136. # [03:11] <gsnedders> Hmm, is there any good way to mark up verse with using caesura and represent it (using CSS) as a long space?
  137. # [03:13] <gsnedders> *caesurae if I actually decline correctly
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  143. # [03:19] <gsnedders> Most existing things seem to use &nbsp;, which isn't great.
  144. # [03:23] <gsnedders> (esp if you want to line up the half-lines, assuming that's how the caesura is used))
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  151. # [04:09] <Hixie> volkmar: awesome, thanks. interesting that you are not looking at doing script-related inputmode control; is that not needed?
  152. # [04:11] <Hixie> pablof: they seem right, am i missing something?
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  156. # [04:15] <Hixie> gsnedders: <span class="caesura">&#x1D113;</span> and hide the content with CSS? :-)
  157. # [04:15] <Hixie> but that's more a musical caesura
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  159. # [04:22] <gavinc> Wrong place to ask, but does anyone know the best way to contact someone at the W3C about membership issue? (Email to membership unanswered for a while)
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  168. # [04:59] <Hixie> gavinc: your AC rep, if you have one
  169. # [04:59] <Hixie> gavinc: failing that, try ij@ maybe?
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  176. # [05:26] <gavinc> Hixie: Yeah, am the AC rep ;) trying to figure out why our membership didn't start on the first
  177. # [05:27] <Hixie> ah :-)
  178. # [05:27] <Hixie> try ian jacobs (ij@)
  179. # [05:27] <Hixie> when MikeSmith is around he can help too, probably by telling you to contact ij@ :-)
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  181. # [05:28] <MikeSmith> gavinc: what Hixie said :)
  182. # [05:28] <MikeSmith> gavinc: I can check the DB at least
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  188. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie: the script is done right?
  189. # [05:46] <Hixie> yup
  190. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> k
  191. # [05:46] <Hixie> there remains the issues i sent the chairs in the e-mail earlier (you were cc'ed)
  192. # [05:47] <Hixie> but i don't plan on doing anything on those unless they ask me to
  193. # [05:47] <MikeSmith> OK
  194. # [05:48] <MikeSmith> Hixie: you don't want any list Cc'ed on that component?
  195. # [06:18] <Hixie> not particularly
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  208. # [06:29] <volkmar> Hixie: script-related input mode control?
  209. # [06:30] <Hixie> like, chinese simple vs traditional
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  271. # [09:54] <hsivonen> so much "wrong tomorrow" with smart card Web logins
  272. # [09:55] <hsivonen> printed pad of passcodes each of which is used once will always be more compatible than any hardware-based solution
  273. # [09:56] <hsivonen> but even as far as hardware goes, USB connectors are more common now than smartcard slots
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  282. # [10:36] <annevk> Is there a way to combine inputmode and autocompletetype somehow?
  283. # [10:37] <annevk> From the autocompletetype anyway the inputmode is often implied
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  293. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> annevk: so it turns out the HTTP spec does specifically disallow whitespace in media-type parameters
  294. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> though it does allow it in other parameters
  295. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616#section-3.7
  296. # [10:49] <AryehGregor> annevk, I had a comment in that vein at some point, saying that there should be some higher-level attribute along the lines of "what type of input is expected" without specifically tying it to autocomplete or whatever.
  297. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> "Linear white space (LWS) MUST NOT be used between the type and subtype, nor between an attribute and its value."
  298. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> I see now that PhilipJ pointed this out in a list discussion last year
  299. # [10:50] <annevk> what is an attribute in that context?
  300. # [10:50] <annevk> they mean parameter?
  301. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> the first half of the parameter before the equal sign
  302. # [10:50] <annevk> ah okay
  303. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> the define the parameter as an attribute+value pair
  304. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> "Parameters MAY follow the type/subtype in the form of attribute/value pairs"
  305. # [10:50] <annevk> so charset = utf-8 would not work?
  306. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> yeah and it doesn't work actually
  307. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> in most browsers
  308. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> I think it works only in IE
  309. # [10:51] <annevk> really?
  310. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> other browsers ignore the parameter
  311. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> yeah try it
  312. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> you have to make sure you have charset-sniffing turned off in the browser
  313. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> and make sure it's not set to default to UTF-8
  314. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> Julian has a test case
  315. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> lemme get the URL
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  317. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> http://greenbytes.de/tech/tc/httpcontenttype/textplainutf8ws.asis
  318. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> summary of results for various browsers is at http://greenbytes.de/tech/tc/httpcontenttype/#textplainutf8ws
  319. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> though when I try it in Chrome it does seem to use UTF-8 no matter what
  320. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> I can't tell whether it's getting it from the header or not
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  322. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> but Opera and Firefox both ignore it at least
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  326. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: do you think it's worth updating the charset part of the ContentTypeParser code to make it proper error-reporting parser instead of that existing regexp-based one?
  327. # [10:56] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  328. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> if so I think I'll go ahead and do that
  329. # [10:57] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  330. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> it seems good to alert a user with a useful error message for the "text/html; charset = utf-8" case if that's not going to actually work as expected in browsers
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  333. # [11:05] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah, that would be nice
  334. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> ok
  335. # [11:06] <hsivonen> the JS i18n API will suck for non-top-tier locales that won't be supported in all browser from day 1
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  337. # [11:07] <hsivonen> the WHATWG-style notion of interop is rather incompatible with the politics of never closing the door on the set of supported locales
  338. # [11:08] <hsivonen> hmm. that statement wasn't quite right
  339. # [11:08] <hsivonen> the WHATWG-style notion of interop is rather incompatible with the politics of not having a normative list of which locales are in the supported set today
  340. # [11:09] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  341. # [11:10] <hsivonen> eventually, the standard will be "whatever ICU supports" and everyone has to ship ICU as the back end impl
  342. # [11:10] <hsivonen> except Microsoft probably won't an will roll their own
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  348. # [11:19] <annevk> ICU is kind of terrible
  349. # [11:19] <annevk> at least for encodings the architecture is way too complex
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  352. # [11:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: I wonder if other headers with similar parameter-style are parsed in the same way
  353. # [11:35] <MikeSmith_> annevk: I think not
  354. # [11:35] <annevk> MikeSmith: this does not sound like the way e.g. <meta http-equiv=content-type> is parsed
  355. # [11:35] <MikeSmith_> I think Content-Disposition is not, for one
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  358. # [11:35] <annevk> and they call HTML a mess
  359. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> heh
  360. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  377. # [12:33] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: (or anyone) If I want to comment on one of these bugs that's been cloned into HTML WG and WhatWG components, am I supposed to comment on the old one, the new one or both?
  378. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> the new one
  379. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> I suggest
  380. # [12:34] <Ms2ger> Then again, we would say that in this channel
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  383. # [12:43] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: OK thanks, it might be worth posting to html and or wg lists saying what just happened, I got several mails I expect some got a lot more:-)
  384. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> yeah sorry about the bugmail bomb
  385. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> I got a lot more :-)
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  387. # [12:44] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: good:-)
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  397. # [13:18] <annevk> david_carlisle: yeah, the clarifying email will come
  398. # [13:18] <annevk> david_carlisle: prolly end of this week or early next, whenever Hixie gets around to it
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  400. # [13:19] <annevk> david_carlisle: basically, the HTML WG forked development on HTML
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  402. # [13:20] <david_carlisle> annevk: yes but I hoped they ony _say_ they forked not actually have different bugs with different resolutions, which would be ... unfortunate
  403. # [13:20] <Ms2ger> Well
  404. # [13:20] <david_carlisle> only
  405. # [13:20] <Ms2ger> More likely they'll have a lot of bugs without resolutions instead
  406. # [13:21] <david_carlisle> Ms2ger: good plan
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  408. # [13:34] <hsivonen> does the HTML WG have an editor for its fork, yet?
  409. # [13:36] <hsivonen> I wonder if someone has scientifically figured out why the WebApps WG kinda works but the HTML WG doesn't
  410. # [13:44] <odinho> Culture.
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  412. # [13:46] <Ms2ger> Are you a scientist? :)
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  414. # [13:52] <odinho> Òó
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  422. # [14:12] <annevk> hsivonen: chairs that tolerate bullshit?
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  424. # [14:13] <annevk> hsivonen: maybe also because WebApps is more difficult so you get less bullshit to start with
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  426. # [14:13] <annevk> hsivonen: well, HTML is deceptively simple anyway, not actually
  427. # [14:18] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah, I'd prefer the chairs to be more like "can't behave like that here" or "nope, not gonna do that" bouncers as opposed to putting everything to a poll out of fairness
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  429. # [14:24] <odinho> Ms2ger: Absolutely not ;]
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  440. # [14:41] <hsivonen> it's unfortunate that the Security Considerations section of CORS doesn't cover the concern related to authentication by IP address or authentication by being on the right side of a firewall
  441. # [14:44] <odinho> That sections has been a bit back and forth IIUC.
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  443. # [14:46] <hsivonen> time and again there's always someone new who doesn't realize that CORS protects network resources whose authentication relies on the network topology
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  448. # [14:58] <odinho> true dat
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  451. # [14:59] <hsivonen> another repeating thing: Ars writes that new release of browser Foo now implements API Bar without explicitly spelling out that care was taken in making API Bar secure. Reader in the comments freaks out assuming that the security issues related to the subject matter of API Bar haven't been addressed or thought about.
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  455. # [15:10] <hsivonen> I wonder if hober is on track to become the new HTML WG editor considering all the CPs...
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  457. # [15:11] <annevk> the W3C is trying to hire someone for it, in case you missed that
  458. # [15:11] <annevk> as a fulltime job
  459. # [15:11] <annevk> I think it's the first time the W3C offers to pay an editor
  460. # [15:13] <hsivonen> annevk: interesting. I missed that.
  461. # [15:13] <hsivonen> annevk: have you applied for the job now that you are no longer at Opera? :-)
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  463. # [15:15] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, nah, he's going to do XSLT :)
  464. # [15:15] <annevk> hsivonen: not sure why I would put time in what Hixie is already doing quite well
  465. # [15:16] <hsivonen> annevk: speaking of editorships, are you keeping the editorship of the specs you were editing as an Opera employee?
  466. # [15:17] <annevk> hsivonen: yeah, I plan to apply for invited expert status
  467. # [15:18] <hsivonen> annevk: cool. I hope whatever your new business model is allows you to keep editing.
  468. # [15:18] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  469. # [15:19] <annevk> hsivonen: I hope so too :)
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  477. # [15:31] <gsnedders> Hixie: U+1D113 is the musical symbol, which is different to what you want in verse.
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  483. # [15:43] * hsivonen finds http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Recruitment/#techeditor
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  498. # [16:28] <annevk> " I believe the WG already has consensus on this point." (on public-webappsec)
  499. # [16:28] <annevk> not sure why we need to have consensus on facts, but I guess...
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  512. # [16:38] <hsivonen> hooray. not declaring the character encoding is now invalid.
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  514. # [16:38] <hsivonen> so I get to remove some complexity from the HTML parser's Java version
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  532. # [17:01] <odinho> hsivonen: Oh the joys in life!
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  539. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I just finished rewriting the Content-Type parsing
  540. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> testing it now
  541. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> will send you a patch when I think it's ready
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  595. # [18:51] <Ms2ger> Philip`, any chance you could put a warning on http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/ that those tests aren't updated anymore?
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  597. # [18:55] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  605. # [19:07] <Hixie> annevk: where would you suggest i e-mail, and what would you suggest i say in said e-mail?
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  648. # [20:04] <MikeSmith> so I made a patch that adds an error-reporting Content-Type header parser to the validator
  649. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> and pushed it to http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/
  650. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> please test
  651. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> or if anybody has any Content-Type test cases please point me to them
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  685. # [21:00] <Hixie> there's some content-type tests on hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http i think, dunno if they'd help
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  711. # [21:30] <sunshinehappy> te//o
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  713. # [21:34] <sunshinehappy> hello
  714. # [21:34] <sunshinehappy> what is it
  715. # [21:35] <Hixie> what is what
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  718. # [21:36] <Philip`> Ms2ger: Yes, if I still remember by the time I have a proper computer+internet set up, and am not too grossly lazy
  719. # [21:38] <sunshinehappy> whatwg
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  723. # [21:40] <Hixie> sunshinehappy: it's where we write the html standard and some other specs
  724. # [21:40] <sunshinehappy> why do you guys write HTML standard? I thought that's what W3C do
  725. # [21:41] <Hixie> we work with the w3c
  726. # [21:41] <Hixie> they're currently more focused on releasing a snapshot
  727. # [21:41] <sunshinehappy> cool!
  728. # [21:41] <Hixie> we're doing the work on future stuff
  729. # [21:41] <Hixie> (thought right now they are not making any changes, so they're also missing the fixes we're making to the old stuff)
  730. # [21:41] <Hixie> (but they plan on fixing that)
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  732. # [21:42] <sunshinehappy> what's are the ideas for future?
  733. # [21:42] <Hixie> MikeSmith: do you know if r12a is on irc anywhere?
  734. # [21:43] <Hixie> sunshinehappy: right now i'm doing research for an inputmode="" attribute on <input> to help people write web pages for mobile phones
  735. # [21:43] <Hixie> sunshinehappy: so you can say e.g. "this input field should have automatic capitalisation" or "this should default to all lowercase"
  736. # [21:43] <sunshinehappy> cool :)
  737. # [21:43] <Hixie> sunshinehappy: trying to fill in this page: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Text_input_keyboard_mode_control
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  739. # [21:44] <Hixie> unfortunately i'm finding it hard to find any information on how input modalities work in asian markets
  740. # [21:44] <Hixie> in particular, chinese, japanese, and korean
  741. # [21:44] <Hixie> also vietnamese i hear needs something special but i can't find any data on it
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  756. # [22:14] <loincloth> Hixie: that example and a number of HTML5 form features strike me as blurring the line between markup and behaviors.. do i miss the point or is that a legitimate observation?
  757. # [22:15] <loincloth> i'm sure HTML5 wasn't the first to dance around that line, either.. i sometimes think JS and CSS should be one language, too, so i'm just thinking out loud.. curious for reactions
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  774. # [22:45] <Tabatkins> loincloth: We've been blurring that line for forever. It's not a sacrosanct barrier.
  775. # [22:46] <Tabatkins> HTML blends content and behavior in a lot of form stuff, and <details>, etc. It blend content and style in its half-presentational elements. CSS blends style and content with pseudo-elements. It blends style and behavior with :hover/:focus/:active, and Animations. JS blends everything, because it's a fully-powered programming language.
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  781. # [22:53] <loincloth> Tabatkins: indeed.. as i said, i know this musing isn't new.. but a new example was given that sparked further discussion
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  798. # [23:28] <Hixie> loincloth: not sure what the difference is
  799. # [23:29] <loincloth> Hixie: between?
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  801. # Session Close: Thu Jul 19 23:35:02 2012
  802. #
  803. # Session Start: Thu Jul 19 23:35:02 2012
  804. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  805. # [23:35] * Disconnected
  806. # [23:36] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  807. # [23:36] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  808. # [23:36] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  809. # [23:36] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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  817. # [23:44] <Hixie> loincloth: markup and behaviours
  818. # [23:44] <Hixie> loincloth: or rather, they seem to be orthogonal
  819. # [23:44] <Hixie> loincloth: you can use markup to describe behaviours... it's like the difference between "english" and "poetry"
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  823. # [23:53] <annevk> Hixie: whatwg@whatwg.org and maybe public-html@w3.org
  824. # [23:54] <annevk> Hixie: just state that from the perspective of the WHATWG we'll keep updating HTML and do so by paying attention to the WHATWG/HTML Bugzilla component and that for W3C HTML people can contact the W3C
  825. # [23:55] <annevk> Hixie: and maybe elaborate on the scripts you wrote to keep the two parties in sync as far as incoming information goes
  826. # [23:58] <Hixie> well my goal for keeping stuff in sync in the future is just that i'll keep an eye on the w3c side
  827. # [23:59] <Hixie> and the chairs haven't asked me to do anything for their side
  828. # [23:59] <Hixie> so e.g. bugs aren't being automatically filed on both sides
  829. # Session Close: Fri Jul 20 00:00:00 2012

The end :)