/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-07-27 / end

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  62. # [01:35] <zewt> matjas: heh yeah, the hope of web developers ever getting non-BMP characters right is pretty remote when browsers don't even get it right
  63. # [01:36] <zewt> matjas: ie9 shows a single *, fyi
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  66. # [01:39] <zewt> opera shows two dots but it edits like a single character (better than ff/chrome, anyway)
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  69. # [01:47] <Hixie> i swear, i'm _this_ close to dropping the authorship information in the references section
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  74. # [02:01] <WeirdAl> Hixie - tired of staring at a thousand names?
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  77. # [02:06] <gsnedders> zewt: Opera on what platform? This is probably different between platforms.
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  79. # [02:07] <gsnedders> Well, the impl is. The behaviour might be.
  80. # [02:07] <zewt> win7
  81. # [02:08] <zewt> haha context menu in opera on password inputs has "check spelling"
  82. # [02:08] <zewt> that might possibly be among the most useless context menu items ever
  83. # [02:08] * gsnedders wonders if it does anything
  84. # [02:09] <zewt> it should warn if you *don't* have typos
  85. # [02:10] <gsnedders> Okay, it doesn't do anything.
  86. # [02:11] <zewt> seems strange that browsers still don't allow copying out of password fields
  87. # [02:11] <zewt> even though every browser lets you get at it in inspector tools anyway
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  91. # [02:19] <Hixie> WeirdAl: they keep fricking changing and keeping them up to date is of no value to me whatsoever
  92. # [02:20] <WeirdAl> I'll admit, it probably looks good on a thousand resumes.
  93. # [02:20] <WeirdAl> but other than that...
  94. # [02:21] <Hixie> not the acknowledgements, i mean the references section
  95. # [02:22] <WeirdAl> oh
  96. # [02:22] <Hixie> certainly not going to remove the names from the acknowledgements section, listing those names is the least i can do given how much help everyone has been
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  98. # [02:25] <Hixie> annevk: btw i checked and i'm still sending your script the "typo"/"xref" thing, even when i'm sending the svn repo and e-mails a longer description
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  154. # [08:12] <hsivonen> hober: The OAuth story really calls for "if you take your spec to the IETF, you're going to have a bad time", despite the frequency of the appearance of the super-cool ski instructor.
  155. # [08:13] <hsivonen> hober: I guess that the reason why the super-cool ski instructor appears so frequently is that it's the only advice animal that actually gives advice, and advice is needed when making standards.
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  158. # [08:23] <roc> I believe the Opus IETF group wasn't terrible
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  160. # [08:29] <tantek> that's good to hear
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  163. # [08:33] <annevk> Hixie: cool
  164. # [08:33] <annevk> hober: my meme suggestion was a bad one
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  174. # [08:54] <annevk> http://www.karlgroves.com/2012/07/26/selling-accessibility-negative-factors/ this is pretty how much how accessibility topics are handled in a F2F
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  177. # [08:57] <tantek> annevk - wow
  178. # [08:57] <tantek> "The fact that accessibility is so hard and time consuming is partly because accessibility folks spend a lot of time chasing unicorns – seeking to pile on new requirements, check-points, and validation plans in hopes to make everything perfect. They separate instead of integrate and only show up when it is time to tell people they’ve messed everything up."
  179. # [08:57] <annevk> also the bit about hostility and FUD
  180. # [08:58] <annevk> every time I meet John Foliot he mentions lawsuits, rules of large corporations, new US legislation
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  182. # [08:59] <annevk> not very compelling
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  191. # [09:25] <matjas> zewt: re: astral symbols in <input type=password>, is it a bug to show them as two symbols or not? I’m not sure, with DOM strings being UTF-16 and all
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  198. # [09:39] <annevk> matjas: depends on the UI requirements
  199. # [09:39] <annevk> matjas: it seems like suboptimal UI, but not necessarily a bug
  200. # [09:39] <matjas> annevk: is this stuff in a spec somewhere?
  201. # [09:40] <annevk> matjas: we don't spec UI
  202. # [09:40] <hsivonen> it seems like a bug but not one that's important to fix
  203. # [09:40] <annevk> matjas: you could take a look if the Rendering section says something, but I doubt it
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  205. # [09:41] <annevk> "When the input-password binding applies, to an input element whose type attribute is in the Password state, the element is expected to render as an 'inline-block' box rendered as a text field whose contents are obscured."
  206. # [09:41] <matjas> that’s all I could find too
  207. # [09:42] <kennyluck> Hixie, you mentioned you were asking people about requirements on input mode control. Do you have a mail that summarizes your questions or something?
  208. # [09:42] <hsivonen> rendering two bullets for one character sure counts as obscured!
  209. # [09:42] <annevk> what I want fixed more than this is a "reveal password" thingie
  210. # [09:43] <annevk> kennyluck: we're look for use cases here: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Text_input_keyboard_mode_control
  211. # [09:44] <kennyluck> annevk, yeah, I know that page, though Hixie indicated that he sent some mails out, not sure if those were internal.
  212. # [09:44] <kennyluck> or I might have misinterpreted what he said.
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  224. # [10:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think I should gather some stats about how validator.nu is used. Stuff like HTML5 versus HTML 4 usage numbers.
  225. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> yeah would be useful
  226. # [10:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Any ideas what in particular I should measure?
  227. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> no particular ideas at the moment
  228. # [10:00] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  229. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> will try to think of some
  230. # [10:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm not planning any fancy back end: just an object in RAM that can dump its data to a HTTP, so no disk I/O is needed.
  231. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> OK
  232. # [10:01] <hsivonen> My connectivity to Mozilla's important infrastructure is broken today, so I better take advantage of the validator hacking opportunity.
  233. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> hah
  234. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> yeah please do
  235. # [10:04] <payman> kennyluck: https://plus.google.com/107429617152575897589/posts/WwVmKNjcZ4p
  236. # [10:04] <kennyluck> payman, thanks!
  237. # [10:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think I should try to find out if people actually use custom Schematron
  238. # [10:09] <annevk> hsivonen: just measure all the settings?
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  243. # [10:11] <hsivonen> annevk: it would be inappropriate to give a public dump of that
  244. # [10:12] <hsivonen> and I don't want to develop access-control
  245. # [10:12] <annevk> which would be wrong?
  246. # [10:12] <hsivonen> annevk: dumping the URLs of custom schemas
  247. # [10:14] <annevk> maybe you should hash them so you can at least count frequency?
  248. # [10:14] <annevk> but measuring first whether they're popular at all seems fine
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  250. # [10:15] * tantek just read that OAuth 2.0 and road to hell blog post and came upon Hixie's comment as well: http://hueniverse.com/2012/07/oauth-2-0-and-the-road-to-hell/#comment-42017
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  252. # [10:17] <annevk> uhuh
  253. # [10:18] <annevk> WebSocket :(
  254. # [10:18] <annevk> although it didn't turn out all bad
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  256. # [10:21] <tantek> I knew things about IETF were quirky and odd (e.g. the humming), but I didn't realize it was that broken (and susceptible to enterprise hijacking).
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  258. # [10:25] <ashemedai> So with MathML in HTML5, am I supposed to use &Integral; or just use Unicode and put ∫ ?
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  267. # [10:32] <annevk> up to you
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  269. # [10:44] <ashemedai> annevk: Shouldn't cause any problems that you know of at least? I mean, semantically &Integral; might be passing along some additional info, not sure how UAs deal with this.
  270. # [10:47] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p5082BC81.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  271. # [10:48] <hsivonen> ashemedai: &Integral; doesn't pass any additional semantics
  272. # [10:50] <ashemedai> hsivonen: Brilliant, cheers.
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  277. # [10:52] <ashemedai> Wonder if I should try compiling https://github.com/w3c/tidy-html5 under Windows one of these days.
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  281. # [10:59] <annevk> ashemedai: the way it works is that &Integral; ends up as ∫ in the tree
  282. # [10:59] <annevk> ashemedai: so it's purely a source text affair and the source text is not exposed
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  284. # [11:05] <Stevef_> hsivonen: your focus outline proposal is a crowd pleaser - thanks for filing and ccing me
  285. # [11:05] <ashemedai> annevk: gotcha
  286. # [11:08] <ashemedai> Microsoft's Math Input Panel loves to add a lot of extra <mrow>s in places it need not to.
  287. # [11:11] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.71.130.getinternet.no)
  288. # [11:15] <ashemedai> Heh, even in a function specification like f(u,v) it made , a <mo>
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  291. # [11:17] <ashemedai> Quite interesting how MathML can show the same rendering with quite varied MathML constructs.
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  303. # [11:30] <odinho> I like that accessibility blog post.
  304. # [11:32] <jgraham> I would like it more if my experience wasn't that certain people it praises do all the things it criticises
  305. # [11:32] <odinho> jgraham: lol, you may replace them with "foo" and "bar" whilst reading.
  306. # [11:33] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  307. # [11:36] * abarth is now known as abarth|zZz
  308. # [11:37] <ashemedai> Oh hey
  309. # [11:37] <ashemedai> The Wikipedia code has been updated. That MathJax change is now live on the main servers.
  310. # [11:37] <ashemedai> When logged in, under Appearance in Preferences
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  317. # [11:59] <Stevef_> jgraham: I think you mean a certain person and I think it is important to draw a distinction between how people act in particular contexts (work) or when ineteracting with particular communities
  318. # [12:00] * Joins: Kolombiken (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
  319. # [12:06] <jgraham> Stevef_: Yes, one person.
  320. # [12:07] * Joins: Areks|2 (~Areks@93-80-234-158.broadband.corbina.ru)
  321. # [12:07] <Stevef_> jgraham: John foliot can be a very positive force in web standards and bringing together the different communities open web camp for example http://openwebcamp.org/
  322. # [12:08] <Stevef_> jgraham: and like myself and many other people in the web standards community he can be disruptive at times
  323. # [12:10] <hsivonen> Stevef_: I filed the focus thing out of my personal need--not to please a crowd. I CCed you, because I mentioned it to you earlier.
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  325. # [12:11] <Stevef_> hsivonen: fine, what i meant was it is a good idea and was welcomed
  326. # [12:11] <hsivonen> Stevef_: ok
  327. # [12:12] <Stevef_> hsivonen: my choice of words may not have been the best
  328. # [12:12] <jgraham> Stevef_: He must have done something worthwhile because a number of people seem to respect him. That doesn't change the fact that the attitudes and behaviours that he is quoted as advocatin in the article are not those that I have experienced him employing himself
  329. # [12:12] * abarth is now known as abarth|zZz
  330. # [12:16] <Stevef_> jgraham: yes I understand that, which is why i mentioned the work distinction as I believe he does exhibit the qualities he is quoted as advocating in his professional accessibility work.
  331. # [12:22] <hsivonen> Stevef_: PARSER_XML_EXTERNAL ("Parser set to XML with external entities");
  332. # [12:22] <hsivonen> doh
  333. # [12:22] <hsivonen> Stevef_: is HTML working group work nonprofessional?
  334. # [12:29] <Stevef_> hsivonen: involvement is on a voluntary basis for many of us I think not affiliated with work. is what I meant. Also in my job (professional capacity) the clients I work with are on the whole not from the standards communities, many have no idea it exists, adobe and google being the exceptions
  335. # [12:29] <Stevef_> maybe microsoft, but who knows what they know
  336. # [12:30] <hsivonen> ok
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  338. # [12:34] <jgraham> (I think it seems very strange to say that one behaviour is needed to get positive action for accessibility in a "professional" context and then display quite different behaviour when trying to achieve similar things in a standards context)
  339. # [12:34] <Stevef_> hsivonen: i generally work with web app developers who build interfaces with tables and buttons using links and have little clue as to how to provide a label for a form control
  340. # [12:34] <jgraham> But what I actually wanted to ask is whether there is a good reason to fire beforescriptexecute after getting the source of the script rather than before
  341. # [12:35] <jgraham> In particular for inline scripts where beforescriptexecute changes the script text
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  343. # [12:36] <jgraham> (Gecko gets thins "wrong")
  344. # [12:36] <jgraham> hsivonen: ^
  345. # [12:37] <Stevef_> jgraham: its a 2 way street the different behaviour is often exhibited due to different responses/reactions recieved
  346. # [12:39] <Stevef_> also note that it is not binary standards/professional , its interaction with particular people or particular subgroups that makes a difference for many people
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  349. # [12:42] <jgraham> Stevef_: I still don't understand why you would believe that acting in a certian way will be best at effecting change in one context and acting in a very different way will be the best way to effect the same kinds of change in a very similar context
  350. # [12:43] <hsivonen> jgraham: sicking's design. He would be a better person to answer.
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  352. # [12:44] <hsivonen> jgraham: If Gecko and the specs disagree, then Hixie disagreed with Gecko.
  353. # [12:45] <Stevef_> jgraham: I don't, i am not talking about what is the best strategy for reaching one's goals I am talking about how other peoples behaviour can effects how one behaves, not in a good way
  354. # [12:46] <jgraham> hsivonen: It seems that Gecko complies with the spec in the src case
  355. # [12:46] <jgraham> Which makes sense, sort of
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  365. # [13:29] <Stevef_> on another note, anyone interested in an MSAA/IA2/UIA accessibility object inspection tool for windows, developed specifically for testing web pages, can try out http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2012/07/latest-aviewer-alpha-2012/ feedback welcome
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  367. # [13:44] <smaug____> Stevef_: make sure to file browser bugs about the issues
  368. # [13:45] <Stevef_> smaug____: yeah am in contact with various browser acc engineers on the bugs
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  370. # [13:46] <Stevef_> smaug____: main issue is that chrome does not currently expose API interface to enable the tool to get at innerhtml
  371. # [13:47] * smaug____ knows nothing about chrome
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  373. # [13:47] <smaug____> but you mentioned few Firefox issues
  374. # [13:48] <smaug____> and would be good to have bugs filed
  375. # [13:48] <Stevef_> smaug____: i think the issues are on our/NVDAs side
  376. # [13:48] <smaug____> Stevef_: just curious, how does Opera behave ?
  377. # [13:48] <smaug____> Stevef_: ah
  378. # [13:48] <odinho> Prolly misbehaves :P
  379. # [13:49] <Stevef_> smaug____:last i checked, does not expose anything useful, unfortunately
  380. # [13:50] <smaug____> odinho was right then :)
  381. # [13:52] <Stevef_> bits of the browser chrome, none of the HTML
  382. # [14:00] <odinho> Stevef_: So, if Opera should be better, -- is there a progressive way to get there? I mean, like small feature A making it lots better, and then many more small fixes to make it progressively better. -- Or is it all requiring a big up-front investment?
  383. # [14:00] <odinho> I have no idea over Opera's accesibility, or even what tools expect to extract.
  384. # [14:01] <Stevef_> odinho: i wrote on the subject here: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2012/06/open-letter-to-opera-re-accessibility-support/
  385. # [14:02] <Stevef_> odinho: to be honest, Opera should look at implementing accessibility in its mobile browsers first (where they have marketshare)
  386. # [14:04] <Stevef_> odinho: there was an aborted attempt 5 or so years ago: http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2007/07/27/screen-reader-support
  387. # [14:04] <odinho> Stevef_: Yes, I did see that post actually. But it seems like real tasks to do stuff like that. I am doing spec stuff, tests etc, but I like doing small bug fixes on the side, so I'm always looking for really easy stuff to fix :P
  388. # [14:04] <Stevef_> adinhO; and belive there was some work on mac accessibility
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  390. # [14:06] <Stevef_> odinho: right, so if you want something small scale (relaitively) that would improve access for keyboard users see discussion with hallvord: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2012/07/w3c-html-and-whatwg-html-split-affect-on-html-accessibility/comment-page-1/#comment-19628
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  393. # [14:15] <odinho> Stevef_: Yeah, that one seems a bit chewable. At least after a while :-) Found the bug about it, seems like it's a very old bug (created 2001).
  394. # [14:16] <odinho> Stevef_: chaals made an extension for it as a stop-gap, https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/key-title/ -- has been downloaded 905 times.
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  396. # [14:17] <Stevef_> odinho: yeah I saw chaals extension, its been an issue since forever in all browsers, i have been banging on about it for at least the mid 2000's...
  397. # [14:18] * Stevef_ hope to see issues fixed before retirement...
  398. # [14:19] <odinho> Stevef_: Hehe, when is that?
  399. # [14:19] * Joins: raphc (~quassel@153-107-190-109.dsl.ovh.fr)
  400. # [14:19] <Stevef_> odinho: 20 years or so :-)
  401. # [14:21] <odinho> Stevef_: Hehe, if we haven't fixed at least the tooltip thing in that time, I will sit down and do it.
  402. # [14:21] <Stevef_> odinho: lol will hold you to that
  403. # [14:21] <odinho> ^_^
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  405. # [14:28] <Stevef_> odinho: also Opera could look at improving support for screen magnifiers on the desktop and also look at providing further features for low vision users who don't use AT, there are many of them, opera could corner the market
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  414. # [14:59] <sedovsek> I wrote about CSS Flexbox Layout model, if anyone is interested > http://galjot.si/css-flexbox
  415. # [15:07] <jgraham> sedovsek: *dynamically
  416. # [15:08] <sedovsek> jgraham: Thanks. I fixed it.
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  423. # [15:22] <david_carlisle> ashemedai: The comma should be in an <mo> (if it is explicit at all) or you could use mfenced and make the comma implict. All distinct character tokens in MathML are in some element or other
  424. # [15:22] <jgraham> In other news MathML is rather verbose :p
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  427. # [15:27] <david_carlisle> jgraham: <word><letter>w</letter><letter>e</letter></word><space> </space><word><letter>l</letter><letter>i</letter><letter>k</letter><letter>e</letter></word><space> </space><word><letter>o</letter><letter>u</letter><letter>r</letter></word><space> </space><word><letter>t</letter><letter>a</letter><letter>g</letter><letter>s</letter></word>
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  429. # [15:28] <jgraham> :)
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  443. # [15:55] <payman> sedovsek: "back in in"
  444. # [15:55] <sedovsek> :P
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  447. # [16:02] <payman> sedovsek: s/Another two/Other two
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  449. # [16:03] <sedovsek> payman: Thanks! Fixed it.
  450. # [16:04] <payman> didn't fix the first issue though :)
  451. # [16:05] <sedovsek> Oh, yea.
  452. # [16:05] <sedovsek> Thanks again.
  453. # [16:05] <payman> np
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  468. # [16:27] <zewt> matjas/annevk: definitely a bug--it doesn't matter that the character is represented as a surrogate pair; it's still one character/one codepoint
  469. # [16:28] <matjas> implementation details exposed to the user etc etc
  470. # [16:28] <matjas> either way, not really a very important issue indeed
  471. # [16:28] <zewt> and being able to backspace over half of the surrogate pair (which you can in chrome and FF) is definitely a bug--you should never be able to create a broken surrogate pair (at least not with a simple UI like that--not sure what should happen in more obscure cases, like pasting one in)
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  473. # [16:29] <matjas> so who’s gonna file the bugs? /me ducks
  474. # [16:29] <zewt> the fact that non-BMP characters are so rarely used is the only reason the utf-16 fustercluck is even tolerable :)
  475. # [16:29] <matjas> haha
  476. # [16:30] <matjas> i bet no one actually uses astral symbols in passwords
  477. # [16:30] <zewt> personally I wish we'd just change JS to ucs-4, under the logic that although we'd break some sites ... it'd probably fix far more :)
  478. # [16:30] <matjas> heh
  479. # [16:30] <zewt> (unfortunately, the sites that it would break would be the few that it actually matters for, since after all they spent the time making it work)
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  483. # [16:34] <smus> hey, would like to polyfill a CSS function, but it appears that there's no consistent CSS OM API so the only way this can be done is by parsing CSS via JS (yuck!). can someone point to a relevant spec?
  484. # [16:35] <beverloo> a spec for what?
  485. # [16:35] <paul_irish> (because CSSOM wont reveal anything it cant succesfully parse..)
  486. # [16:35] <beverloo> the CSS OM is specified here: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/
  487. # [16:35] <paul_irish> well.. ideally CSSOM had a UnknownRule definition
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  491. # [16:36] <smus> right. thx paul
  492. # [16:36] <paul_irish> so when it failed we could at least hack up that part with regex
  493. # [16:36] <smus> missing piece!
  494. # [16:36] <paul_irish> aside from that, the browser could expose essentially the stylesheet AST
  495. # [16:36] <SimonSapin> parsing CSS from JS? https://github.com/tabatkins/css-parser
  496. # [16:37] <smus> so if ur like background: -webkit-image("foo.webp", "foo.jpeg"); the parser just ignores that rule entirely. would be nice if it parsed as unknown
  497. # [16:37] <beverloo> the css syntax specifically defines that unknown properties/at rules need to be ignored
  498. # [16:37] <paul_irish> SimonSapin: the goal is a polyfill you'd use in production... and you can't ask folks to parse css in js clientside for real.
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  500. # [16:38] <paul_irish> beverloo: sure, but you can see the problem. we can't polyfill to extend css when unknowns are discarded.
  501. # [16:38] <beverloo> the css syntax (including the rules for ignoring it) is specced here: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-syntax/
  502. # [16:38] <beverloo> well, you'd have to polyfill the hypothetical CSSUnknownRule too :p
  503. # [16:38] <paul_irish> hey now
  504. # [16:39] <paul_irish> i dont need to polyfill try/catch
  505. # [16:39] <smus> http://www.highdots.com/forums/javascript/retrieving-unknown-css-rules-48513.html
  506. # [16:39] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|mtg
  507. # [16:39] <smus> specifically, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2003Oct/0347.html
  508. # [16:40] <smus> why drop unknowns?
  509. # [16:40] <paul_irish> omg. bert.
  510. # [16:40] <beverloo> it sounds like you should take this to www-style
  511. # [16:41] <smus> k, any known reason to drop unknowns?
  512. # [16:41] <smus> (so i can present a balanced case)
  513. # [16:41] <paul_irish> smus: its probably somewhere in this 2003 era archives of www style
  514. # [16:42] <paul_irish> beverloo: yeah certainly. it'd be fun to get UnknownRule back
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  543. # [17:39] <smus> cool, so <img srcset> doesn't seem to work in any browser. is there an existing reference implementation? http://smus.com/m/srcset/
  544. # [17:41] <jreading> iOS 6 mobile safari
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  547. # [17:43] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  549. # [17:43] <SimonSapin> good afternoon, dglazkov
  550. # [17:52] <Wilto> jreading: Any chance you have a link to the commit/some details handy? Curious as to whether it just covers resolution or the whole extended microsyntax.
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  561. # [18:24] <Velmont> smus: ... You have an error in your syntax as well, it's with comma.
  562. # [18:25] <smus> Velmont: thx!
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  571. # [18:40] <jreading> Wilto: http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/111637
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  573. # [18:41] <jreading> and a polyfill: https://github.com/SunboX/-webkit-image-set-polyfill
  574. # [18:41] <jreading> :/
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  577. # [18:47] <miketaylr> sweet README
  578. # [18:47] <miketaylr> accidentally the code
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  580. # [18:48] <jreading> polyfills are the new domain squatting
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  586. # [18:55] <jreading> i misspoke about srcset, it's "image-set", sorry for the confusion. *ducks*
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  590. # [18:58] <Hixie> hsivonen: hey sometimes gecko and the spec disagree just because i made a mistake, or because mozilla people told me they disagree with gecko :-)
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  655. # [20:53] <Hixie> hmmm
  656. # [20:53] <Hixie> i wonder how to spec the autocomplete="" field's grammar and parsing
  657. # [20:54] <Hixie> <empty> | on | off | [section] [subsection] ( generic-field | [contact-type] contact-field )
  658. # [20:54] <Hixie> i guess to parse it i split on spaces then go backwards through the tokens
  659. # [20:57] <Hixie> and to define the conformance criteria for authors, maybe an ordered list of tokens, and i just say what each token has to be or something
  660. # [20:57] <Hixie> ok
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  667. # [21:16] <Wilto> jreading: Man, that’s gonna be a tough one to polyfill.
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  681. # [21:48] <tantek> Hixie, sounds horribly complicated
  682. # [21:49] <Hixie> i'm certainly open to alternatives :-)
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  689. # [22:12] <zewt> okay, the chrome thing where no form of refresh will make it reload css background: url() images is pretty much horrible
  690. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> I think Inspector is gaining some Refresh options soonish, so you can do hard refreshes or even full cache flushes.
  691. # [22:16] <zewt> that's what control-f5 is supposed to do, it just appears to not propagate to css resources
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  693. # [22:17] <TabAtkins> That actually sounds like a bug. File on us?
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  695. # [22:36] <annevk> paul_irish: TabAtkins and I at some point came up with data-* CSS properties that would be exposed in the CSSOM
  696. # [22:36] <annevk> paul_irish: as opposed to exposing every property which would kinda ruin forward compatibility
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  698. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> annevk: That's the CSS Variables spec.
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  700. # [22:46] <annevk> ah yeah, it morphed into that
  701. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> Which we'll finalize for WD and soonafter LC next month at the meeting.
  702. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> But yeah, exposing every property is a non-starter.
  703. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> Like custom elements without an x- prefix or something.
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  721. # [23:18] <jgraham> TimBL!
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The end :)