/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-07-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jul 30 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  23. # [00:44] <heycam> MikeSmith, thanks. I just tried again now and it seems to be pushing fine.
  24. # [00:44] <heycam> MikeSmith, also no apologies needed for being offline all day on the weekend. :)
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  28. # [00:53] <bencc> is it reasonable for a websocket client and server to remember the last message and resend it on reconnect?
  29. # [00:54] <bencc> or are websockets reliable enough that in case of failure something really bad happened and I need to recreate everything
  30. # [00:56] <roc_> the latter
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  32. # [00:57] <bencc> roc: I did some testing. jsonp and xhr-polling fails sometimes and even RTMP flash connection
  33. # [00:58] <bencc> but Websocket doesn't
  34. # [00:58] <bencc> how come?
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  38. # [00:58] <roc> I don't know
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  40. # [00:59] <bencc> thanks
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  70. # [02:26] <MikeSmith> heycam: so I couldn't figure out specifically what might have caused that problem
  71. # [02:27] <MikeSmith> other than the file system just running out of space completely
  72. # [02:27] <heycam> MikeSmith, ok np. I'l l let you know if it comes up again.
  73. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> I think we just don't have enough space on that machine. There isn't a separate mount for /tmp on it. It's on the same mount as the main filesystem, which is only 4.3G and 93% full. So there less than 300MB free on it right now.
  74. # [02:30] <MikeSmith> anyway I'll talk to the systems team about it
  75. # [02:30] <MikeSmith> heycam: I don't mind getting pinged on the weekend, btw. But if you need to ping me and I don't seem to be around on IRC, feel free to e-mail at mike@w3.org
  76. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> If you do I'll get a notification on my mobile right away, and I can actually ssh into that machine from there
  77. # [02:32] <heycam> MikeSmith, righto, thanks
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  85. # [03:03] <bk> hi
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  88. # [03:05] <bk_1> is anyone here
  89. # [03:05] <bk_1> hmm
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  92. # [03:11] <|bk|> anyone knows a good way to start with xhtml
  93. # [03:11] <|bk|> not sure where else to ask
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  98. # [03:18] <zewt> "don't"
  99. # [03:21] <GPHemsley> <audio>/<video> should be able to contain <embed> as a fallback, right?
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  104. # [03:43] <GPHemsley> I'm told that fallback content is only used by browsers that don't actually support <audio>/<video>
  105. # [03:44] <GPHemsley> But if the browser doesn't support the media type of the actual file, shouldn't it be able to treat it as it would <embed>?
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  113. # [04:07] <zewt> GPHemsley: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-February/025028.html
  114. # [04:07] <zewt> nonsense, in my opinion (codec compatibility will *never* become a non-issue, so long as new codecs are being deployed that not everyone has)
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  116. # [04:10] <GPHemsley> zewt: I didn't find the argument particularly convincing, particularly from a user experience point of view
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  120. # [04:28] <Hixie> zewt: new video codecs come out even more rarely than new image formats
  121. # [04:28] <Hixie> (which have changed like, once, in the history of the web)
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  141. # [05:09] <zewt> Hixie: what? they come out far, far more frequently (i'm watching stuff on my htpc right now that I had to buy an htpc to watch, because it's so new none of my set-top stuff can play it)
  142. # [05:10] <zewt> (namely, 10-bit h264, which both requires a lot of CPU and is not decode-compatible with regular h264)
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  144. # [05:12] <zewt> (or whatever lower profile of h264 is widely used; not familiar with the particulars)
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  149. # [05:33] <Hixie> zewt: browser-supported codecs?
  150. # [05:33] <Hixie> zewt: sure, new image formats and video codecs come out all the time, but we're talking specifically about browser-supported ones
  151. # [05:33] <Hixie> (and so far we don't even have one that's uniformly supported)
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  191. # [08:19] <MikeSmith> anybody familiar with geolocation-api implementations, I'm wondering if it's really possible in practice for a Web app to get old position data for a user from the browser position-object cache
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  194. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> I thought I saw something before that suggested browser implementations only allow a Web app to access position information which the user has already authorized that app to access
  195. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> I also found http://www.w3.org/2011/09/07-geolocation-minutes.html#item06
  196. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> where the Geolocation WG discussed this
  197. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> "The wg consensus is that no API change is required to address this, but that UAs should perhaps consider protecting against sites receiving old position data shared with other sites"
  198. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> but I don't understand why they decided the spec should not have some explicit requirement with regard to this
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  230. # [10:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: looks like validator.nu defaults to HTML5 + SVG 1.1 + MathML 3.0 + RDFa Lite 1.1 for text/html with <!DOCTYPE html> but to XHTML5 + SVG 1.1 + MathML 3.0 for application/xhtml+xml with XHTML root namespace
  231. # [10:13] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that can't be intentional, can it?
  232. # [10:13] <hsivonen> looks like there's a bug in the preset file
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  234. # [10:17] <hsivonen> looks like the CML validator has moved and no longer builds on Validator.nu
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  253. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah that bug in the presets is almost certainly my fault
  254. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> sorry
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  258. # [10:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I can fix it later today
  259. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> ok
  260. # [10:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm almost done with the statistics feature
  261. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> excellent
  262. # [10:52] <hsivonen> I'll put it behind a JVM system property
  263. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> once that lands I can enable it in the W3C backend as well, if you think that would be useful
  264. # [10:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. right now, the schema stats don't support the W3C list of presets
  265. # [10:53] <hsivonen> but that could be arranged
  266. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> yeah I could tweak it locally afterward for now if it came to that
  267. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> I mean locally on those server instances
  268. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> I think we currently have 4 hosts behind validator.w3.org/nu
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  277. # [11:37] <matjas> http://whatwg.org/html/webappapis.html#dom-windowbase64-btoa why was btoa specced to not support code points above U+00FF in the input string? was that how UAs had implemented it?
  278. # [11:40] <gsnedders> Yes.
  279. # [11:41] <matjas> gsnedders: thanks
  280. # [11:41] <gsnedders> Not sure if all did, but certainly most.
  281. # [11:41] <AryehGregor> All, IIRC.
  282. # [11:41] * AryehGregor wrote the spec for that
  283. # [11:42] <matjas> Too bad. I’m used to stuff above U+FFFF breaking, but not > U+00FF.
  284. # [11:42] <matjas> what’s the reason UAs had implemented it that way? is there a good one?
  285. # [11:43] <AryehGregor> matjas, basically, btoa() treats its input as a sequence of bytes, not a string.
  286. # [11:43] <AryehGregor> The base64 algorithm acts on bytes, after all, not characters.
  287. # [11:43] <AryehGregor> How would you have said it should work?
  288. # [11:43] <AryehGregor> What would you do with codepoints above U+FF?
  289. # [11:44] <matjas> rebuild http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/cgi/data/data in HTML + JS, for example
  290. # [11:44] <matjas> it’s possible only if you don’t use `btoa` but instead write your own method
  291. # [11:45] <matjas> dev expectation (at least for me, without checking the spec) was that you can just feed any string to btoa() and get the base64-encoded result back, but that’s not true
  292. # [11:45] <AryehGregor> matjas, I mean, how would you modify the btoa() algorithm so that it does something sensible with chars above U+00FF? What should it do with them?
  293. # [11:46] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure there's anything to do with them that makes sense.
  294. # [11:47] <gsnedders> Encode as UTF-8, like Encode() does.
  295. # [11:47] <matjas> encode strings per UTF-8, then base64 encode that?
  296. # [11:47] <matjas> but maybe that’s just me
  297. # [11:47] <AryehGregor> I guess that might have been plausible if it was done from the beginning, but it's not backward-compatible now.
  298. # [11:48] <AryehGregor> At the time the algorithm was designed, UTF-8 by default would have been a lot weirder than now, I think.
  299. # [11:48] <matjas> so instead of e.g. btoa('foo♥bar') you have to use btoa(unescape(encodeURIComponent('foo♥bar')))
  300. # [11:49] <matjas> AryehGregor: Yeah. I was just wondering why browsers never implemented it that way, as it seems to make much more sense IMHO.
  301. # [11:49] <AryehGregor> matjas, does encodeURIComponent actually always use UTF-8?
  302. # [11:50] <matjas> AryehGregor: it does as per ES 5.1; not sure about implementations though
  303. # [11:50] <matjas> http://ecma-international.org/ecma-262/5.1/#sec-15.1.3.4
  304. # [11:50] <gsnedders> All impls do.
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  306. # [12:01] <matjas> function base64encode(string) { return btoa(unescape(encodeURIComponent(string))); } function base64decode(string) { return decodeURIComponent(escape(atob(string))); }
  307. # [12:02] <matjas> there we go.
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  312. # [12:20] <jgraham> Why do you need [un]escape?
  313. # [12:22] <annevk> what's the difference between encodeURI and encodeURIComponent?
  314. # [12:23] <annevk> ah
  315. # [12:23] <annevk> encodeURI does not escape #
  316. # [12:24] <annevk> oh and whatever is uriReserved
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  327. # [12:59] <annevk> welcome to the WHATCG odinho
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  330. # [13:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://validator.nu/stats.html http://html5.validator.nu/stats.html
  331. # [13:00] <hsivonen> in the latter case, the schema is always automatically chosen but is never reported as such
  332. # [13:01] <[tm]> hsivonen: ok
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  334. # [13:02] <hsivonen> there's no server-side persintence
  335. # [13:03] <hsivonen> the stats could be persisted by running wget on stats.html via cron or something
  336. # [13:03] <hsivonen> from my point of view, the time window between validator redeployments should be enough to get interesting numbers
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  339. # [13:04] <hsivonen> already two things surprise me: validations per second < 1
  340. # [13:04] <hsivonen> and the Web service APIs seem more often used than the Web UI
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  343. # [13:07] <hsivonen> [tm]: OK if I fix the bug in w3c-presets.txt, too, even though the bug is latent there (has no effect, AFAICT)?
  344. # [13:08] <hsivonen> (the bug about the default schema for XHTML, that is)
  345. # [13:08] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
  346. # [13:14] <matjas> jgraham: [un]escape is not really needed here (it is only needed if you want to do proper UTF-8 {en,de}coding), but using it results in much smaller base64-encoded strings, and makes it match the output of other base64-encoders
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  348. # [13:17] <jgraham> matjas: Right, that makes sense
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  380. # [14:41] <[tm]> hsivonen: ok by me
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  384. # [14:42] <[tm]> interesting that the Web-services API is used more than the Web UI
  385. # [14:42] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  386. # [14:49] <hsivonen> when going to TPAC, is it a good or a bad idea to take a TGV from CDG to Lyon?
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  388. # [14:51] <AryehGregor> <http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html> is loading slowly.
  389. # [14:52] <AryehGregor> Oh, it seems whatwg.org isn't loading.
  390. # [14:52] <AryehGregor> That's why.
  391. # [14:53] <hsivonen> [tm]: I pushed a fix for w3c-presets.txt
  392. # [14:54] <AryehGregor> This doesn't seem to say that any escaping happens? http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html#concept-serialize-xml
  393. # [14:54] <AryehGregor> (for text nodes)
  394. # [14:55] <AryehGregor> That's surely a bug.
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  396. # [14:58] * AryehGregor files
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  406. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks
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  408. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the fact that 75% of the requests are from the Web-services client makes me wonder if many of those are coming from the same small set of clients
  409. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> in other words, if there are is a small set of users or third-party services that account for most of the requests
  410. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> with users of the "normal" Web-based direct use case being the other 25%
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  412. # [15:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it would be interesting further research to try to figure out how varied the IP addresses for the Web service requests are
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  414. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah
  415. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: incidentally the W3C systems team has deployed a mechanism that when it detects excessive traffic from a particular IP, shows a page that says,
  416. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> Excessive traffic pattern blocked
  417. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> Due to excessive traffic we are temporarily blocking your IP address, please rate limit your use of W3C's Validator.
  418. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> Your IP address will clear automatically.
  419. # [15:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: is this in a load balancer independent of the validator code?
  420. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> yes
  421. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> I don't know the details of the rate-blocking part of that, though
  422. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> nor do I know how long they plan to set the blocking period in production
  423. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> nor how many requests per minute you have to make before it will block you and show that message
  424. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> previously it did not show that message
  425. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> it would just return a 403
  426. # [15:32] <hsivonen> It's annoying that SNCF won't sell train tickets more than three months in advance and the end of TPAC is more than three months away.
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  446. # [16:18] <hsivonen> also very annoying that SNCF sells out some trains that are almost 3 months away
  447. # [16:18] <hsivonen> so I booked the Paris Lyon train now and will book Lyon Paris once available
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  449. # [16:19] <hsivonen> at this rate, the Paris-Lyon tickets would be gone by the time the Lyon-Paris tickets go on sale
  450. # [16:19] <hsivonen> crazy
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  459. # [16:35] <icaaq> Hi, if I have a sentence that someone has to say to make an accomplishment, would it be appropriate to use the q-element then?
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  463. # [16:39] <annevk> <q> is annoying, better use ""
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  466. # [16:39] <icaaq> why is it annoying?
  467. # [16:41] <karlcow> icaaq: It is not annoying.
  468. # [16:42] <annevk> icaaq: because it sometimes and sometimes not renders quotes
  469. # [16:43] <annevk> I guess most browsers do render quotes nowadays, but not always those you want
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  471. # [16:43] <annevk> and since you never want to style it you might as well use ""
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  473. # [16:44] <icaaq> annevk: ok, but that I dont care about :)
  474. # [16:45] <icaaq> I'm more interested in the right semantics
  475. # [16:45] <karlcow> or 「」(lang:ja) or « quote » (lang:fr) depending on the language.
  476. # [16:45] <karlcow> The question was about semantics. So icaaq is asking if it is appropriate to markup the expression of someone with q.
  477. # [16:46] <icaaq> karlcow: a future quote, so to speak, that not has been said yet
  478. # [16:46] <karlcow> icaaq: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/the-q-element.html#the-q-element
  479. # [16:46] <jgraham> karlcow: The author is pretty much the only person who can tell what the right quote character is, so that seems like a disadvantage
  480. # [16:47] <karlcow> icaaq: is more about contexts than content
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  482. # [16:47] <karlcow> does it come from elsewhere with regards to the text you are writing.
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  486. # [16:49] <karlcow> Basically, you are saying: I'm putting this (text) in here (<q></q>) and it's coming from there (cite="<uri>")
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  488. # [16:50] <icaaq> Yes, but it has not been said yet ;)
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  490. # [16:50] <karlcow> icaaq: it's a provenance context, not a type of discourse. :)
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  492. # [16:51] <karlcow> basically it is not about narrative
  493. # [16:52] <icaaq> it's this pull request I'm wondering about. https://github.com/mozilla/bedrock/pull/296
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  496. # [16:54] <karlcow> he is right, no need of q there
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  499. # [16:54] <hsivonen> [tm]: whoa! somebody uses the legacy XHTML+SVG+MathML schema! No one validates SVG, though. http://validator.nu/stats.html
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  510. # [17:13] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: some of them might have been me (but you can discount those:-)
  511. # [17:14] <icaaq> karlcow: ok, thanks!
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  579. # [19:17] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  674. # [22:20] <tantek> wow - in an example of the validator actually *not helping* looks like a lot of folks running wordpress were very confused by rel="category tag" being marked as invalid
  675. # [22:21] <tantek> e.g. http://wordpress.org/support/topic/wordpress-abuses-rel-tag
  676. # [22:25] <tantek> (only discovered today when someone created a placeholder page for rel-category_tag due to someone adding "category tag" as a *single* value to the rel-registry - since corrected)
  677. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> It's a category *and* a tag, right? Not a "category tag"?
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  679. # [22:27] <Hixie> hah, that thread is awesome
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  681. # [22:27] <Hixie> i love it when people say "it's not finalised, so it can change at any time"
  682. # [22:28] <Hixie> as if everything in HTML4 is still in HTML today unchanged, and as if HTML4 not changing itself was a good thing :-)
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  689. # [22:38] <tantek> for more: https://www.google.com/search?q=rel-category+tag
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  697. # [22:45] <tantek> TabAtkins, exactly. And as a result I had to write some text here: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-category_tag
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  757. # [23:53] <Hixie> bah, html sucks.
  758. # [23:53] * Hixie finds himself wanting a non-rectangular cell in a table
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  760. # [23:55] <annevk> sounds like a CSS problem
  761. # [23:55] <edwardbc> tables suck
  762. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> No, it's HTML.
  763. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> He means one that spans rows and columns without spanning the full cross of them.
  764. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> Not a cell that is, by itself, non-rectangular a la CSS Exclusions.
  765. # [23:56] <annevk> still a CSS problem
  766. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> I... don't understand. It's content.
  767. # [23:56] <annevk> HTML does not dictate how to render a cell
  768. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> It's no more a CSS problem than @rowspan is.
  769. # [23:57] <annevk> I guess I misunderstood what Hixie meant by non-rectangular
  770. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> This is just a more complicated form of combining @rowspan and @colspan.
  771. # [23:57] <annevk> sleepy time
  772. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> That's why I tried to explain it. ^_^
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  776. # Session Close: Tue Jul 31 00:00:01 2012

The end :)