/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-08-03 / end

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1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 03 00:00:00 2012
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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21. # [00:38] <Hixie> hober: is image-set() going anywhere?
22. # [00:39] <hober> Hixie: TabAtkins keeps saying he'll add it to CSS4 Images, but I don't know when he'll get to it.
23. # [00:41] <Hixie> is it basically the same as srcset="" is now?
24. # [00:41] <Hixie> but with cssy syntax?
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26. # [00:41] <hober> AFAIK it only handles the resolution case
27. # [00:41] <hober> but that will depend on whatver TabAtkins puts in the draft
28. # [00:42] <Hixie> ah ok
29. # [00:42] <hober> as currently implemented, -webkit-image-set() only supports the resolution case, fwiw
30. # [00:42] <Hixie> right
31. # [00:43] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
32. # [00:43] <hober> on the css side of things, the art direction case is probably best handled with the existing mechanisms (MQs etc0
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34. # [00:43] <Hixie> yeah
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36. # [00:45] <hober> i think the only change i remember TabAtkins planning to make was to add the ability to specify a <color>
37. # [00:45] <hober> (if the ua decides that *none* of the resources are to its liking, it could display the color instead)
38. # [00:46] <Hixie> interesting
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41. # [00:51] <zewt> hober: or image-set(url(...), url(...), rgba(...))?
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43. # [00:52] <Hixie> more like image-set(url(...) 1x, url(...) 2x, rgba(...)) or some such, right?
44. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> hober: I've already got it started, I just need to finish writing it out. Expect it to show up this evening or tomorrow.
45. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> Would have done it Tuesday, but was working on Flexbox and sizing things with fantasai instead.
46. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> But yeah, planning on only doing the resolution stuff, because MQ does the other parts fine.
47. # [00:57] <zewt> Hixie: yeah, I just mean that support for a color shouldn't be a special case
48. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> <img srcset> just doesn't have an easy way to do MQs, so it has to reinvent them in its syntax.
49. # [00:57] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
50. # [00:57] <Hixie> zewt: it's still special :-)
51. # [00:57] <zewt> (note: i know nothing about image-set aside from the last page or so of IRC)
52. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> hober: I'm still not sure what to do about 2x vs <resolution>
53. # [00:57] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah
54. # [00:58] <Hixie> it's amazing how HTML's syntax is constraining us
55. # [00:58] <Hixie> but anyway
56. # [00:58] <hober> TabAtkins: drop <resolution> obviously :)
57. # [00:58] <Hixie> hober++
58. # [00:58] <othermaciej> <resolution> is lame
59. # [00:58] <othermaciej> no one will remember or understand what dppx units mean
60. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> The "x" unit is just a synonym for "dppx".
61. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> I'd prefer to just make it an explicit synonym.
62. # [00:59] <othermaciej> and I think specifying dpi for this use case is not valuable
63. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> ...you're already specifying dpi.
64. # [00:59] <hober> dp{i,cm,px} should just go away entirely; they're crazy
65. # [00:59] <othermaciej> no, you're specifying a scale factor relative to "normal"
66. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> Normal is 96dpi.
67. # [01:00] <othermaciej> but there's no good reason to say 192dpi instead of 2x
68. # [01:00] <othermaciej> and it may make you think you can say things like 200dpi, which will get you ugly blurry output
69. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> It's probably less useful in this case, yeah. But you're still specifying a resolution, so it's weird if you can't use the other resolution types.
70. # [01:01] <othermaciej> or worse yet, it may make you think you should use the actual physical device dpi, which in this case would be utterly wrong
71. # [01:01] <hober> but no one should ever, ever use the otheer resolution types
72. # [01:01] <hober> s/ otheer// even :)
73. # [01:01] <othermaciej> you might think you should say 326dpi instead of 192dpi
74. # [01:02] <hober> exactly
75. # [01:02] <othermaciej> for the iphone
76. # [01:02] <othermaciej> css overloading dpi to mean something unrelated to physical dpi is a bad idea
77. # [01:02] <othermaciej> and should not be propagated
78. # [01:04] <othermaciej> 192dpi is closer to the actual physical dpi of the original iPhone than to the Retina iPhone
79. # [01:04] <Hixie> note that the display resolution is not necessarily just 1x vs 2x; consider browser zoom, or the retina macbook pro resolution setting
80. # [01:04] <hober> right. image-set(foo 1x, bar 2x) just means that bar's resolution is twice that of foo's; it doesn't make any claims to foo or bar's actual resolution. the ua can then pick whichever would be best in the current circumstance
81. # [01:05] <othermaciej> sure, you could have fractional zoom
82. # [01:05] <othermaciej> but describing in in terms of dpi just confuses the issue
83. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> hober: Well, that's no good. That means you can't ever rely on auto sizing.
84. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> "2x" needs to very strictly mean "this is 192dpi".
85. # [01:05] <hober> auto sizing works fine
86. # [01:06] <othermaciej> it doesn't mean "this is 192dpi", it means, "choose this when 2x scale is appropriate and downscale it by 2"
87. # [01:06] <Hixie> othermaciej: 100% agree on dpi being pointlessly confusing here
88. # [01:06] <hober> what othermaciej said
89. # [01:06] <Hixie> like setting font-size in pt or width in cm
90. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> Those two statements are equivalent.
91. # [01:06] <othermaciej> no, because dpi could be taken as a statement about the image's intended true physical resolution
92. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> Because the 1x scale means "this is 96dpi".
93. # [01:07] <hober> no it doesn't
94. # [01:07] <othermaciej> except to people who know the insane CSS definition of DPI
95. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> You can *think* your iamge is something else, but you're wrong. It's 96dpi by definition. ^_^
96. # [01:07] <othermaciej> (and believe it)
97. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> Hixie: You coming to my desk?
98. # [01:07] <othermaciej> it's 96 dots per CSS inch, not 96 dots per inch
99. # [01:08] <othermaciej> a normal person would not think that "dpi" means "multiply by 96"
100. # [01:08] <othermaciej> so calling that unit dpi is bordering on evil
101. # [01:08] <othermaciej> furthermore, there is no particular case where it is helpful or convenient to multiply by 96
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103. # [01:08] <TabAtkins> What are you talking about? There's no multiplication by 96.
104. # [01:08] <othermaciej> and it makes it harder to see which values represent an integral scale factor
105. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> "dots per CSS inch" is approximately the same as "dots per physical inch", and the approximation gets closer as resolutions go up.
106. # [01:09] <othermaciej> it is in no way approximately the same
107. # [01:09] <othermaciej> the iPhone has 192 dots per css inch and 326 dots per physical inch
108. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> At a normal zoom factor it is.
109. # [01:10] <othermaciej> 192 is not approximately the same as 326
110. # [01:12] <hober> If I've done the math right, I think 1 CSS liter is 37,795 cubic pixels.
111. # [01:13] <othermaciej> CSS liter makes about as much sense as CSS dpi :-)
112. # [01:13] <hober> (cubic css pixels, of course.)
113. # [01:13] <hober> yeah, exactly
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120. # [01:24] <zewt> cool, that thread is now totally derailed
121. # [01:24] <zewt> (ugh)
122. # [01:24] <hober> zewt: the lazy blob thread?
123. # [01:25] <zewt> yeah
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178. # [02:27] <MikeSmith> Hixie: here now
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196. # [02:59] <roc> at least I don't have to take responsibility for the CSS "dpi" unit
197. # [03:00] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
198. # [03:00] <TabAtkins> Who *is* responsible for that?
199. # [03:00] <roc> I don't know
200. # [03:01] <roc> can we not implement it and then take it out of the spec?
201. # [03:01] <roc> ddpx is a dumb name but at least it makes some sense
202. # [03:02] <TabAtkins> dppx. ^_^
203. # [03:02] <roc> I reset my case
204. # [03:03] <TabAtkins> I suspect it falls out of the image-resolution property, which is specced because CSS printers implemented it unprefixed.
205. # [03:03] <TabAtkins> I'm just gonna define "x" to be a synonym for "dppx".
206. # [03:03] <TabAtkins> And we'll see who screams.
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209. # [03:05] <TabAtkins> Oh, roc, while you're here, I had a question about your comments on element() to Birtles.
210. # [03:05] <TabAtkins> In particular, what do you see as clashing about the use of element() as <image> and as a more generic element reference?
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213. # [03:06] <roc> mask:url(foo.svg#abc)
214. # [03:07] <roc> er wait
215. # [03:07] <roc> that's not what you were asking about
216. # [03:07] <roc> mask:element(#abc)
217. # [03:08] <roc> and suppose the element with the mask style is not an ancestor of the #abc element
218. # [03:08] <roc> as currently specced I think that matches according to CSS Images and does not match according to the SVG proposal
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221. # [03:09] <TabAtkins> Ah, I see. So it's valid as an <image>, but not as a mask reference.
222. # [03:09] <TabAtkins> Okay, so then we probably do want a separate function for "refer to an element" that doesn't interpret it as an image.
223. # [03:09] <TabAtkins> Like select() or something.
224. # [03:09] <roc> or
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226. # [03:10] <roc> well
227. # [03:10] <roc> yes, that's probably for the best
228. # [03:10] <roc> descendant() might be a better name
229. # [03:10] <roc> maybe we're not talking about the same thing
230. # [03:11] <roc> I think basically you want a version of element() that matches only within the subtree of the styled element. Possibly that could be achieved with extended selector syntax, but a different CSS value is probably better
231. # [03:11] <roc> that could be a CSS image value and then SVG could just use it
232. # [03:12] <TabAtkins> Or, wait, it's actually not a problem I think?
233. # [03:12] <TabAtkins> if element(#abc) points to a non-child, or a child that's not a <mask>, it's an <image>. If it points to a <mask> child, it's a mask reference.
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235. # [03:13] <TabAtkins> The two should be mutually exclusive, since <mask> doesn't provide a paint source.
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241. # [03:15] <roc> that seems fragile
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243. # [03:16] <TabAtkins> Potentially, yeah.
244. # [03:16] <TabAtkins> So, back to select(). If you allow the same fragment thing that document.find() does, it would be easy. "mask: select(> .foo);"
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247. # [03:33] <TabAtkins> hober: Any opinion on what the interaction between image-set("foo" 2x) and 'image-resolution' should be?
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249. # [03:39] <TabAtkins> hober: Right now, I have image-set() defined as setting the "intrinsic resolution" of the image, but that doesn't play well with the current initial value of "image-resolution".
250. # [03:40] <TabAtkins> It might make sense to change the initial value to "auto", which means "1x, unless CSS says otherwise".
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305. # [08:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: pong
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308. # [08:39] <Hixie> hsivonen: your input on this thread would be helpful: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Aug/0004.html
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495. # [16:11] <jgraham> So if window A opens window B opens window C and B closes before any script can run in C, how do I get a reference from C to A?
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507. # [16:28] <smaug____> ugh, "please attach a minimal testcase" -> a zip file containing for example jQuery :/
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509. # [16:29] <zewt> smaug____: to too many people, jQuery is "default" :|
510. # [16:30] <jgraham> smaug____: You know it isn't possible to write js without jQuery, right?
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532. # [17:33] <GPHemsley> Hixie: So... why does the spec use a combination of AmE and BrE?
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534. # [17:35] <Ms2ger> It should be using en-US
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539. # [17:41] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: 'organisation' is not en-US
540. # [17:42] <Ms2ger> -s- seems to be used only for autocomplete, all other occurrences use -z-
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542. # [17:43] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: And that was the precise instance I was looking at :)
543. # [17:43] <Ms2ger> It's the only you could be looking at! ;)
544. # [17:44] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: At least I'm not seeing things!
545. # [17:44] * Ms2ger is glad he svn up'd the repo before claiming there was no such spelling in the spec
546. # [17:44] <GPHemsley> :)
547. # [17:48] <Hixie> GPHemsley: purely an oversight, please file bugs (if it's a keyword to be implemented, mark the bug "blocker")
548. # [17:48] <Hixie> or send mail
549. # [17:48] <GPHemsley> k
550. # [17:49] <Hixie> should all be en-US
551. # [17:49] <Hixie> the problem is that i speak en-GB and keep forgetting which is which
552. # [17:49] <Hixie> due to spending too much time in the US
553. # [17:50] <micheil> Hixie: I thought you spoke en-HIXIE?
554. # [17:50] <micheil> or was that someone else here?
555. # [17:51] <Hixie> en-GB-x-Hixie :-)
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557. # [17:51] <micheil> that's it! A custom dialect of english
558. # [17:51] <Ms2ger> Good morning dglazkov
559. # [17:51] <micheil> ;)
560. # [17:51] <Ms2ger> Sure would be weird if someone else here spoke en-GB-x-Hixie
561. # [17:51] <dglazkov> \o/
562. # [17:52] <GPHemsley> Bug 18482
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567. # [17:55] <niloy> We request data from a servlet using ajax and parse the data as JSON, but when the JSON size is large, the UI hangs, can someone suggest any solution?
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569. # [17:58] <GPHemsley> micheil: 'Tis an idiolect, indeed.
570. # [17:58] <micheil> heh, I remember there being a similar discussion a few months back..
571. # [17:59] <micheil> niloy: you may wish to ask that in, say, ##javascript (pretty sure these guys are doing spec stuff)
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576. # [18:16] <Velmont> timeless: http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2012/08/03/summer-core-update << has updated websocket now. -- So then /that/ blocker for irccloud is removed at least :P
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622. # [19:41] <TabAtkins> Any examples of some popular super-early polyfills damaging out ability to change a feature?
623. # [19:44] <Velmont> Where are you going to use it? :]
624. # [19:45] <Velmont> (I don't know any examples, for the record)
625. # [19:45] <Ms2ger> var indexedbDB = window.indexedDB || window.webkitIndexedDB || window.moz .....?
626. # [19:45] <Velmont> Ms2ger: What about it?
627. # [19:45] <Ms2ger> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=770844
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629. # [19:48] <TabAtkins> Oh, that's a different type of issue.
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1164. # [20:48] <hober> is http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#event-type-resize really the most up-to-date documentation of the resize event?
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1166. # [20:51] <Ms2ger> Probably
1167. # [20:52] <hober> sadface
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1197. # [21:16] <TabAtkins> heycam|away: Is there any particular reason WebIDL doesn't let you nest constructors underneath another object?
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1219. # [22:22] <TabAtkins> hober: How does the spec for image-set() look to you? http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css4-images/#image-set-notation
1220. # [22:24] <hober> syntax nit: I think you mean * where you have +
1221. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> No, that was intentional. There doesn't seem to be any use for an image-set() with only a single argument, is there?
1222. # [22:25] <hober> fair enough
1223. # [22:25] <hober> why [ <url> | <string> ] instead of <image>?
1224. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> I suppose maybe it could be useful if you *only* want to serve a 2x image...
1225. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> Because <image> covers things like gradients.
1226. # [22:26] <hober> image-set(image(......) 1x, image(....) 2x) should be fine, don't you think?
1227. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> Oh, right, yes. Hmm. Let me do some grammar hackery to make that work.
1228. # [22:27] <hober> and of course you know my feelings on <resolution>
1229. # [22:27] <hober> otherwise this all looks fine
1230. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> And the reverse, too. image(image-set(...), image-set(...))
1231. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> kk
1232. # [22:27] <hober> right (the reverse should work)
1233. # [22:27] <zewt> TabAtkins: what benefit is there to restricting to 2+? seems like it'd do nothing but be annoying, heh
1234. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> zewt: The entire point of image-set() is to provide multiple versions of an image.
1235. # [22:28] <hober> is your algorithm always going to pick the same asset that <img srcset=""> would given the same arguments?
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1237. # [22:28] <zewt> TabAtkins: that's not an explanation for *requiring* it, unless there's something inherent to it that would make it not work at all
1238. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> hober: There's no requirement there, but I don't see why it wouldn't. If HTML already defines something that I can hook, I'm willing to.
1239. # [22:29] <zewt> eg. if I'm editing image-set in existing CSS and I want to remove or comment out an entry, why would you force me to rewrite it without image-set?
1240. # [22:29] <zewt> (if it happens to reduce it to one item)
1241. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> zewt: Good point. That tips me over the edge. I'll change to *.
1242. # [22:29] <zewt> sounds sort of like something in Java that aggravated me to no end: unreachable code is a fatal error
1243. # [22:29] <hober> TabAtkins: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-1.html#attr-img-srcset
1244. # [22:30] <hober> sorry, this is the relevant link
1245. # [22:30] <hober> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-1.html#processing-the-image-candidates
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1247. # [22:32] <TabAtkins> hober: Hm, that algorithm seems unnecessarily restrictive.
1248. # [22:32] <TabAtkins> By my reading, it prevents you from ever choosing a low-res image under low-speed connections.
1249. # [22:32] <hober> see step 16
1250. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> Oh, gotcha.
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1253. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> Hm, it appears that my algorithm and HTML's are functionally identical, actually.
1254. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> However, a note that it should match <img srcset> would be appropriate.
1255. # [22:35] <zewt> TabAtkins: not to state the obvious or anything, but it's infinitely better to use the same algorithm than to declare it twice and assert that they're the same :)
1256. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> Ooh, wait - it appears that HTML decides definitely on the candidate before trying to resolve the URL, and doesn't change its mind even if the URL is an invalid image.
1257. # [22:36] <hober> that's what i would expect image-set() to do too
1258. # [22:36] <hober> the whole idea is that asset selection happens without having to fetch any assets
1259. # [22:37] <zewt> personally i'd find it weird if it had magic multi-fetch recovery stuff
1260. # [22:37] <hober> if you want magic multi-fetch fallback stuff, use image()
1261. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> Really? I have it specced to have a similar behavior to image(), where the UA orders the resources as it wants, then gets the first one that successfully decodes as an image.
1262. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> You can't actually use image() here, since your fallback is "use the next-best image".
1263. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> Rather, "your desired fallback".
1264. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> And you can't predict ahead of time how the UA will order the resources.
1265. # [22:39] <hober> each image-set() should only ever result in one http request; if it turns out to be invalid, you get an invalid image
1266. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> That seems quite suboptimal.
1267. # [22:39] <hober> if that doesn't work, image(image-set(), image-set(),...)
1268. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> ...that wont' work. It'll just request the same image again, presumably, unless you want to assume that "I already tried this once" is a factor in the resource selection algorithm.
1269. # [22:40] <zewt> hober: wouldn't that not work since there's no way for the second image-set to say "everything in the first minus whatever was picked first"?
1270. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> Plus it's very verbose.
1271. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> Telling someone to repeat their entire image-set() N times, where N is the number of things in the image-set(), is just user-hostile.
1272. # [22:40] <hober> I woudn't expect those two image-set()s to be the same
1273. # [22:41] <hober> or you can do it with image-set(image() 1x, image() 2x)
1274. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> Again, that's something *different*.
1275. # [22:41] <zewt> personally I find the idea of browsers trying to recover from being given bad urls unusual
1276. # [22:41] <hober> zewt: right
1277. # [22:41] <hober> zewt: it's the purpose of image(), but not of image-set(), so it would surprise me if image-set() was magic in that way
1278. # [22:42] <zewt> (i'd rather see an "X" or something, instead of have it silently "recover", at the expense of extra network requests and presumably a suboptimal image being shown)
1279. # [22:42] <zewt> does that happen with background-image: url(), url(), ...?
1280. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> Multiple bg images are stacked, not fallbacks.
1281. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> (And an invalid image in CSS is just invisible.)
1282. # [22:46] <zewt> unrelatedly, anyone want to give me a reason not to put *[hidden] { display: none !important; } in my stylesheet? heh
1283. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> No, go for it.
1284. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> No need for the *, though.
1285. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> Save a byte for your users. ^_^
1286. # [22:46] <zewt> rather annoying that without it, every display: rule has to be in its own :not([hidden]) rule
1287. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> It's unfortunate that UA !important has become de-facto a more powerful level than author or user !important.
1288. # [22:47] <zewt> (and a bit strange that I need to work around it at all; I wish there was a separate boolean CSS rule to hide things that takes precedence over display)
1289. # [22:47] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-104-107.dynamic.t-2.net)
1290. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> zewt: Yeah, that was clearly a mistake on our part early on.
1291. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> Definitely one of the time-travel fixes in CSS.
1292. # [22:48] <zewt> is there anything preventing adding something like that now?
1293. # [22:48] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-104-107.dynamic.t-2.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1294. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> No, not particularly. Only inertia, plus possibly pushback from impls in the group who don't want to add something "unnecessary" because they have no authoring experience.
1295. # [22:49] <zewt> heh
1296. # [22:49] <zewt> @hidden is a big improvement, but everyone having to learn how it interacts with display is unfortunate
1297. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> But I'm off-and-on working on a 'display' spec, and might as well fit that into the same thing.
1298. # [22:49] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-104-107.dynamic.t-2.net)
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1300. # [22:51] <zewt> also the fact that webkit transitions became pretty much de-facto everywhere is ... annoying
1301. # [22:51] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-104-107.dynamic.t-2.net)
1302. # [22:51] <timeless> Velmont: thanks, why didn't the operaupdater.exe tell me about it?
1303. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> hober: Want to start a thread about the fallback thing? If we don't do any fallback within image-set(), then there's no real reason to include the color, except perhaps just avoiding the verbosity of a wrapping image().
1304. # [22:51] <zewt> still can't figure out any way to synchronously skip transitions
1305. # [22:51] * timeless was running 11.52
1306. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> transition-duration: 0 !important
1307. # [22:51] <hober> TabAtkins: which is fine by me (not including the color)
1308. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> hober: Well, obviously, since you don't want to change your impl. ^_^
1309. # [22:52] <hober> heh
1310. # [22:52] <zewt> i've tried unsetting the transition while i make some change I don't want to transition, then setting it back, but it still does the transition
1311. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> Anyway, start a thread so we can discuss it, now that it's written up.
1312. # [22:52] <hober> i'll probably start two or three threads
1313. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> zewt: Do you flush style in between those?
1314. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> hober: Cool.
1315. # [22:52] <hober> (the fallback thing, the <resolution> thing, the <color> thing)
1316. # [22:53] <zewt> only way i've found is something like clear transition, setTimeout(function() { make the change, restore the transtiion }, 0), which of course isn't synchronous
1317. # [22:53] <zewt> TabAtkins: not sure what that means
1318. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> hober: I think the interesting use-case of providing printer-friendly versions justifies the <resolution>. ^_^
1319. # [22:53] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.71.130.getinternet.no)
1320. # [22:53] <timeless> Velmont: so... the updater gave me 12.01
1321. # [22:53] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-104-107.dynamic.t-2.net) (Client Quit)
1322. # [22:53] <timeless> ... which isn't the same as 12.50
1323. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> zewt: Browsers queue up style changes until they're forced to resolve them (or enough time passes that they need to resolve them for rendering).
1324. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> zewt: So doing an operation that requires accurate style information flushes the style queue, which is required for some hackery around transitions/animations to work properly.
1325. # [22:54] <timeless> oh, 12.50 is a dev preview thing
1326. # [22:55] <zewt> TabAtkins: what's good for triggering that? will getComputedStyle do it?
1327. # [22:55] <jamesr_> yeah
1328. # [22:55] <jamesr_> man i need to revive that proposal
1329. # [22:55] <zewt> (well, I know it'll force a style update, but I don't know if it'll do the job with transitions in the mix)
1330. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I think so. Tony Gentilcore put up a fairly comprehensive list of what works in WebKit, and the list should be pretty similar across browsers.
1331. # [22:55] <jamesr_> i'm not 100% on that in gecko
1332. # [22:55] <jamesr_> in WebKit that'll flush it all out
1333. # [22:56] <zewt> oddly, firefox is the only browser I hit where the setTimeout() hack didn't work (on code that worked in chrome and opera)
1334. # [22:56] <zewt> (the site is pretty mobile safari-centric so I couldn't spend much time poking at it, though)
1335. # [22:57] <hober> TabAtkins: the print case is more reasonably handled with the existing scale factor. image-set(foo.png 1x, bar.png 2x, baz.png 6x)
1336. # [22:57] <timeless> Velmont: so, the irccloud app still renders wrong (it loads at least, which is nice)
1337. # [22:57] <zewt> hober: how? are you just going to provide an arbitrarily blown-up image and hope it's both big enough for printing and not unnecessarily big? heh
1338. # [22:57] <timeless> specifically, the bottom of irccloud is outside the window edge
1339. # [22:58] <zewt> afk a few
1340. # [22:58] <timeless> and that's where the user input field is :(
1341. # [22:58] <TabAtkins> zewt: It's weird that setTimeout() didn't work. I thought everyone flushed style when they returned to the event queue.
1342. # [22:59] <jamesr_> no
1343. # [22:59] <jamesr_> we defer as much as possible
1344. # [22:59] <jamesr_> ideally we don't flush style until somebody asks via CSSOM or we go to paint
1345. # [22:59] <TabAtkins> Huh, okay.
1346. # [22:59] <TabAtkins> I clearly know nothing.
1347. # [22:59] <jamesr_> i've made this gradually more deferred in WebKit over the past year+
1348. # [22:59] <jamesr_> it used to flush after every return from JS
1349. # [23:00] <jamesr_> gecko has a repeated style flush timer, i don't know if they also flush eagerly after returning from JS
1350. # [23:03] <zewt> of course, the problem is that this is script-visible (due to transitionend)
1351. # [23:03] <zewt> when this stuff breaks, i don't get the event and things break
1352. # [23:03] <timeless> hey, anyone here familiar w/ the http portion of websocket initialization?
1353. # [23:04] <timeless> how much of `upgrade: websocket` is case sensitive?
1354. # [23:04] <timeless> and which document(s) specify that?
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1356. # [23:05] <zewt> rfc6455?
1357. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> hober: I've added your two issues to the draft.
1358. # [23:11] <timeless> zewt: 4.2.1 point 3
1359. # [23:11] <timeless> specifically, which is what i needed
1360. # [23:11] <timeless> it's a long document ...
1361. # [23:12] <zewt> welcome to ietf specs
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1369. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> hober: What do you think about the situation where you have image-set(image-set(foo 1x) 2x)?
1370. # [23:20] <hober> what's the problem?
1371. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> Valid? And if so, what does it mean?
1372. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> And if not, is it okay to require impls to recurse down the tree of references to ensure that there's no image-set() anywhere inside of an image-set()?
1373. # [23:20] <hober> foo gets selected for the inner image-set(), and its intrinsic width doesn't get scaled down. then the inner image-set() is selected for the outer image-set(), and its intrinsic size gets scaled by 0.5
1374. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> ...so if they were both 2x, it would get scaled twice? That seems bad.
1375. # [23:21] <hober> i don't think it makes much sense for authors to do this, but i don't think it necessarily has to be made invalid.
1376. # [23:21] <hober> it's like other valid-but-kinda-nonsensical things
1377. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> I'd like to make sure, as much as possible, that valid things are interpreted sanely.
1378. # [23:22] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-fguuvipnqavivkia)
1379. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> In other words, stupid results should be because of stupid actions, not unintentional stupid interactions on our side.
1380. # [23:23] <hober> sure. and in this case, stupid results are as a result of stupid actions; the interpretation on our side is totally reasonable given the input
1381. # [23:23] <hober> gigo
1382. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> I don't particularly see how image-set(image-set('foo' 2x) 2x) meaning the same as image-set('foo' 4x) is reasonable on our part.
1383. # [23:24] <zewt> how isn't it? it seems like the logical result
1384. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Only if you interpret the "2x" as meaning "halve the specified size", rather than "set the intrinsic resolution to 2 dots per px".
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1386. # [23:25] <hober> again, we come back to the <resolution> craziness :)
1387. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> Your interpretation is just stilly, though. ^_^
1388. # [23:25] * Quits: jeff777777 (~root@cust-65-98-141-98.static.o1.com) (Client Quit)
1389. # [23:25] <hober> this is clearly something on which we disagree. :)
1390. # [23:25] * Joins: jeff777777 (~root@cust-65-98-141-98.static.o1.com)
1391. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> Anyway, if the effect is "nonsensically stack the multipliers", I'd rather just make it invalid.
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The end :)