/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-08-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Aug 04 00:00:04 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:12] <poop> Is it valid in html5 to have <ns:customel>text</ns:customel>? I know that declaring namespaces in the html element with @xmlns is unsupported, but what about actually using the elements themselves?
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  12. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> No, those are also invalid.
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  14. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> (Because they can't be represented in the XML serialization.)
  15. # [00:13] <poop> TabAtkins: thanks. what do you mean by that?
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  17. # [00:14] <gsnedders> <ns:customel> creates an element whose namespace is "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" and whose local name is "ns:customel".
  18. # [00:15] <gsnedders> Local names cannot contain colons.
  19. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> What I said. ^_^ If you parse as HTML, it knows nothing about namespaces, so it would just set the tagname to "ns:customel". But this can't be exported back into XML - you can't have element names with : in them. So, to maintain the DOM Consistency Principle, we make it invalid in HTML.
  20. # [00:16] <poop> TabAtkins: is there a spec for how this will be handled by UAs despite being invalid?
  21. # [00:16] <gsnedders> poop: Yes, the Parsing HTML Documents section.
  22. # [00:16] <hober> poop: the HTML spec
  23. # [00:16] <gsnedders> (in HTML/HTML5)
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  30. # [00:37] <Hixie> poop: what's your specific use case? (what are you trying to do?)
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  32. # [00:44] <poop> Hixie: oh, hi there. :)
  33. # [00:44] <poop> ummm, well i'm juust exploring possibilities for right now... I mean, I would like to have more semantic markup than what HTML natively provides.
  34. # [00:45] <Hixie> why?
  35. # [00:45] <poop> tags like <x:comment> and <avatar> and stuff, so that i don't get to have such messy </div></div></div>
  36. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Semantics are a contract between you and the consumer. Custom elements thus have zero semantics.
  37. # [00:45] <poop> it's hard to work with.
  38. # [00:45] <Hixie> (what do you mean by "semantic"?)
  39. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Every custom element is semantically equivalent to a <div> or <span>.
  40. # [00:45] <Hixie> <x:comment> has an element in HTML, it's <article>
  41. # [00:46] <poop> Hixie: well one it makes my markup easier and more maintainable and legible.
  42. # [00:46] <Hixie> for <avatar> you mean like a version of <img>?
  43. # [00:46] <poop> Hixie: shouldn't that be reserved for main centerpieces of webpages? I'm talking about for like a comment thread on a blog post
  44. # [00:46] <poop> Hixie: yes, exactly.
  45. # [00:47] <Hixie> poop: the "semantic" of an element is derived from what the spec says the element means, not from the tag name
  46. # [00:47] <Hixie> poop: i recommend reading the spec's section on <article> :-)
  47. # [00:48] <poop> in one sense it is a contract between me and the consumer. on the other hand its a nicer and more elegant one between me and myself. interacting with the dom in js willl be more concise and i could even modify the ua with a browser ext. and recommend thatmy users install it.
  48. # [00:48] <poop> Hixie: okay, but what about <img>?
  49. # [00:48] <poop> and <avatar>?
  50. # [00:48] <Hixie> if you just want something for yourself, I recommend making up your own language, and then having a script that converts it to HTML
  51. # [00:48] <Hixie> that's what i do sometimes
  52. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> If you're worried about code naming, that's not semantics. ^_^ Do what Hixie says - use a preprocessor to convert your private language into vanilla HTML.
  53. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> And paper over the differences in DOM with some helper functions.
  54. # [00:49] <poop> Hixie: oh really? have you ever written about it more extensively than you're likely to do here in IRC anywhere?
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  56. # [00:49] <Hixie> e.g. the HTML spec itself is written in a kind of frankenstein's monster variant of HTML that I pipe through half a dozen scripts
  57. # [00:49] <poop> Hixie: i'm interested in the implementation details... :)
  58. # [00:49] <Hixie> the implementation is embarassingly ugly
  59. # [00:50] <poop> Hixie: ah, ok.
  60. # [00:51] <Hixie> but the principle is sound :-)
  61. # [00:51] <poop> but still, debugging isn't so easy when when you open your page in the browser for rendering the closing tags are a bunch of </div></div></div>s
  62. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Just use Python or something - it's got decent dom-style implementations.
  63. # [00:51] <poop> TabAtkins: I've been reluctant to invest in larning python.
  64. # [00:51] <Hixie> poop: we've mostly removed the need to use <div> these days
  65. # [00:51] <Hixie> poop: i almost didn't include <div> in HTML actually
  66. # [00:51] <Hixie> but people threated to hit me
  67. # [00:51] <poop> Hixie: oh really?
  68. # [00:51] <Hixie> threatened
  69. # [00:51] <poop> thatwould've been awesome.
  70. # [00:52] <Hixie> note that <avatar> vs <img> doesn't involve any </div>s :-P
  71. # [00:52] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  72. # [00:52] <gsnedders> TIL: web developers are sadists, willing to do anything to keep their elements.
  73. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> Reasonable layouts still generally require <div>s. Particularly since there's no <content> element. ^_^
  74. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Masochists, you mean?
  75. # [00:53] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah man, when's css gonna fix that :-P
  76. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> Oh, the hitting of Hixie.
  77. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Man, I don't know. We gotta get this shit together.
  78. # [00:54] <poop> Hixie: no, but it is still more readable.
  79. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> poop: In my experience as a webdev, if your page is broken up into components that are responsible for emitting their own HTML, you rarely have very much nesting in any single chunk of HTML.
  80. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> (Even if the generated output stacks </div>s like they're going out of style.)
  81. # [00:55] <Hixie> poop: i seriously recommend making your own language and having a tool to convert from one to the other
  82. # [00:55] <Hixie> anyway, i gotta run. bbl.
  83. # [00:55] <poop> and i don't have to use <-i-m-g- -c-l-a-s-s-=-"-a-v-a-t-a-r-"- -/-> and i can just say <-a-v-a-t-a-r->
  84. # [00:56] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Yeah, the hitting of Hixie was what I meant.
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  86. # [00:57] * TabAtkins still would find it amusing to have <font> as a holder for @style, and it invalid everywhere else.
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  90. # [01:10] <zewt> TabAtkins: though I'll confess to having considered using a bogus element name just to have a generic inline-block container, heh
  91. # [01:11] <zewt> thus far I've resisted
  92. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> <x-ib>
  93. # [01:14] <zewt> (personally I have no idea how you'd write a webpage without <div>, unless it means using <span> and stuffing display:block on it, and I don't know that that actually improves anything)
  94. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> It doesn't, obviously. ^_^
  95. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> I've done div-less development before. You can get surprisingly far if you're lucky with the kinds of display you want.
  96. # [01:14] <zewt> i've briefly considered only using span (or div) for layout like that, and dismissed it as doing nothing but making me write more css rules
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  98. # [01:15] <zewt> well, most of my pages are the sort that involve an artist handing me a PSD, heh
  99. # [01:16] <zewt> (for work, anyway)
  100. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> Yeah, for that case you're almost certainly going to end up with <div>s immediately.
  101. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> But doing it with the minimum of junk was always a fun challenge to me.
  102. # [01:17] <zewt> special thanks for random hover on gmail saying in big letters: Glenn Maynard (you)
  103. # [01:18] <zewt> apparently google thinks i need the reminder
  104. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> We're not saying you're dumb, but...
  105. # [01:19] <zewt> also gmail dropping the colored name thing is really annoying, since now I can't tell which Ian a post is from, from the message index
  106. # [01:19] <zewt> used to be all Hixies were the same color
  107. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> Man, I know.
  108. # [01:19] <zewt> it's the basic design flaw of web apps: when somebody decides it's time to "upgrade", you don't get any choice in the matter
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  148. # [03:28] <MikeSmith> Hixie, you pinged me yesterday
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  155. # [04:00] <heycam> TabAtkins, do you mean like `new Something.OtherThing(…)?`?
  156. # [04:01] <heycam> TabAtkins, hasn't come up so far. but also I think you can just write a static operation and using new on it will just work.
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  162. # [04:40] <TabAtkins> heycam: Yes, that's it.
  163. # [04:41] <TabAtkins> heycam: I'm not sure how it would work with a static operation. I could certainly define it to work as a constructor, but the definition of the returned type would presumably still have to be an interface, and thus would appear on the window, right?
  164. # [04:42] <heycam> TabAtkins, oh I see, so you want to have the interface object itself under a different object, not just an additional constructor
  165. # [04:42] <TabAtkins> Well, I suppose it's not important to hide the interface object.
  166. # [04:42] <TabAtkins> The point of putting it under another object is to curb verbosity, is all.
  167. # [04:43] <TabAtkins> But if the "real" interface exists and has a long name, that's irrelevant I suppose.
  168. # [04:43] <heycam> TabAtkins, because you get to use a shorter name?
  169. # [04:43] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
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  171. # [04:43] <heycam> new Element.A("blah")
  172. # [04:43] <TabAtkins> Things like the constructors for the css value types in the new om api.
  173. # [04:43] <heycam> that kind of thing?
  174. # [04:43] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  175. # [04:44] <heycam> will all these constructors return an object that inherits from the outer thing on which you're putting the constructor?
  176. # [04:44] <TabAtkins> No.
  177. # [04:44] <TabAtkins> The outer thing will pretty much just be a namespace object.
  178. # [04:45] <TabAtkins> The plan is for a CSS interface, which is like navigator or something - a place to stash CSS-related things so they don't end up on window.
  179. # [04:45] <heycam> I see
  180. # [04:45] <heycam> well if this is a pattern that we want to go forward with I can certainly add something to the spec
  181. # [04:46] <TabAtkins> I guess hold off for now, until we have confirmation that we want to go that way.
  182. # [04:46] <TabAtkins> But provisional acceptance is good.
  183. # [04:46] <heycam> sure. I don't think it's a bad idea.
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  208. # [06:58] <Hixie> MikeSmith: was going to ask if you had input on the alt thread on whatwg, from an implementor's perspective, and if you knew what hsivonen's opinion was
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  216. # [07:25] <MikeSmith> Hixie: haven't caught up on replies on that thread yet
  217. # [07:25] <MikeSmith> will read it and see
  218. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> I think hsivonen is supportive of adding that attribute
  219. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> but we've been having discussions about what the validator behavior for it should be
  220. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> e.g., about whether it should cause a once-per-document warning
  221. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> Henri has explained why that would not be any better than emitting an error each time, so I'm trying to figure out some other creative way to deal with it
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  223. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> anybody know who's running the OAuth 2.0 show at IETF?
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  230. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> so Hixie I read Jukka's message on the alt thread on whatwg and would be happy to reply to any part of that you think I should
  231. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> I don't have anything specific to say in reply to it myself at this poitn
  232. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> *point
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  234. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> I think the reply to him from Nils on that one particular question he asked says pretty much what I would have said
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  237. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> Hixie: replied on the list
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  239. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> if you want me to say more than what I said in that reply, just let me know
  240. # [08:19] <MikeSmith> I expect I can get something implemented in my validator.nu workspace for this over the weekend
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  249. # [09:08] <Hixie> MikeSmith: awesome, thanks. reply looks perfect.
  250. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> ¥OK
  251. # [09:08] <Hixie> will look more closely next week after doing the response images thread
  252. # [09:08] <Hixie> (about 25% through that)
  253. # [09:08] <Hixie> nn
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  355. # [16:17] <Velmont> timeless: Yeah, that's why I said the biggest blocker :P -- But yes, I haven't investigated why it renders wrong, don't know what bug that is.
  356. # [16:18] <Velmont> timeless: And it's a "next" (aka unstable) release, so it (not being totally evil) won't autoupdate you to that ;-)
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The end :)