/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-08-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Aug 21 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> Feel free. I think it would be workable for the quirks spec to define the set of properties that need quirk handling, and the way in which each is handled.
  5. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> But I'm okay with Syntax just handling the whole thing. My ideal handling of it would just be taking the part I'd want in the quirks spec and putting it in an appendix.
  6. # [00:04] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: there's an </h4> missing (top-level mode)
  7. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> fixed
  8. # [00:06] <zcorpan> v.nu complained about some other errors in the source document also
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  12. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> Ah, yeah, more markup errors. Fixed.
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  23. # [00:43] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: http://simon.html5.org/dump/css3-syntax/ has the original source file (before the fixing of markup errors) and the other file is with quirks added (i didn't add the list of properties though)
  24. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> Ah, so I can just diff it?
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  27. # [00:48] <zcorpan> yeah
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  30. # [00:53] <zcorpan> now i'm gonna sleep. but i'll read the logs tomorrow so just dump comments here if you have any :-)
  31. # [00:53] <zcorpan> nn
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  47. # [01:20] <heycam> TabAtkins, ok thanks (will use <ident>)
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  65. # [02:16] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Since it looks like the quirks only need to be handled at the "top level" of a property, I was able to put together a much simpler version. Just made a small addition to the declaration-value mode, and then defined two variants of "consume a primitive" that do the quirky things.
  66. # [02:16] <TabAtkins> (Your version was slightly wrong anyway - it was written like there was only a single "quirks-function" flag, when you really need a stack to handle nested functions.)
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  74. # [02:35] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
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  76. # [02:41] <smaug____> I bit late for hsivonen, I guess
  77. # [02:45] <Hixie> yeah, but we can always hope :-)
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  118. # [05:39] <kennyluck> hi, WHATWG!
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  127. # [06:18] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: hey man
  128. # [06:18] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: we don't have component-watching support in the version of bugzilla we're running
  129. # [06:19] <MikeSmith> I think it's a bugzilla 4 feature
  130. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> Hixie (or anybody else who's awake): It's possible for a single assertion in the spec to have multiple test cases associated with it, right?
  131. # [06:20] <kennyluck> MikeSmith, hmm… ok. I won't be the person pushing for it.
  132. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: I'd love to have it too but I don't think we are going to be migrating to v4 any time soon
  133. # [06:24] <MikeSmith> about the test-case question, I'm working on a how-to that attempts to explain how to determine what to test in a spec
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  149. # [07:04] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yeah, of course
  150. # [07:04] <Hixie> MikeSmith: e.g. "if the user agent receives a value between 25 and 30, it must show blue" would have at least a dozen tests
  151. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah sorry I was thinking out loud
  152. # [07:05] <Hixie> (-1, 0, 1, 24..31, an arbitrary number above 31, 2**31-1, 2**32, 2**63, not a number...)
  153. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> yeah
  154. # [07:06] <MikeSmith> I'm using "On setting, if the new value is one of “none”, “copy”, “link”, or “move”, then the attribute’s current value must be set to the new value" for dropEffect as an example
  155. # [07:07] <Hixie> that one has many test assertions in one since it applies to many modes, iirc
  156. # [07:08] <MikeSmith> ok
  157. # [07:10] <Hixie> honestly for most assertions one can come up with a near infinite number of tests
  158. # [07:11] <Hixie> the key is to only come up with as many as is required to keep the engineers busy :-)
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  164. # [07:24] <MikeSmith_> Hixie: :-)
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  182. # [09:07] <jgraham> MikeSmith: In HTML lots of the musts are "must run the following steps" followed by a multistep algorithm that invokes several other multistep algorithms
  183. # [09:07] <jgraham> In such cases it doesn't even make sense to say that you are testing the top-level "must:
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  185. # [09:08] <jgraham> You are typically trying to test that a particular set of steps in the algorithm are correctly implemented
  186. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, understood
  187. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> about those
  188. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> plh and I working on a W3C "Testing how-to"
  189. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> current source is at https://github.com/w3c/testing-how-to
  190. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> if you care to take a look and have any comments
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  192. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> I'm going to be working on the rest of it in the next few hours
  193. # [09:11] <jgraham> OK
  194. # [09:14] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I think Hixie tries to write so that "foo is bar" statements are always just factual i.e. they fall out of some other part of the spec
  195. # [09:14] <jgraham> But others are not so careful
  196. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> yeah I know
  197. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> when I see that pattern in the HTML spec, I can be confident it's just stating a fact for which the actual requirements are stated elsewhere
  198. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> but no such confidence for most other specs
  199. # [09:17] <jgraham> Also, it's basically impossible to write tests that just test one thing. I mean as soon as you depend on the parser, or the DOM, or whatever that's making the assumption that many other things work
  200. # [09:17] <jgraham> The trick is to be clear about what is acceptable to assume and what is not
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  204. # [09:19] <jgraham> You can probably assume that the parser works, as long as you are not doing anything funky. But you might have to be careful around less interoperable bits of the spec or bits more closely related to the subject of your test
  205. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> OK
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  208. # [09:20] <jgraham> s/reading the entire spec/reading the spec/
  209. # [09:21] <jgraham> There is *some* modularity, even in something like HTML ;)
  210. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> k :-)
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  212. # [09:23] <jgraham> The testharness.js example with firstElementChild is horrible
  213. # [09:24] <jgraham> assert_true(!!something) is ugly because it's deliberately undermining the test harness
  214. # [09:24] <jgraham> The right tests to use there would be assert_idl_attribute
  215. # [09:25] <jgraham> But people don't like that because the interoperability on where the attributes go on the prototype chain is so poor
  216. # [09:27] <Ms2ger> I don't use assert_idl_attribute because I always forget it exists :)
  217. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I will pass that on to plh
  218. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> he wrote that part
  219. # [09:28] <jgraham> Also the link to the navigation timing tests is not optimal
  220. # [09:28] * Ms2ger blames these tests being manual before
  221. # [09:28] <MikeSmith> why?
  222. # [09:28] <jgraham> Because they add a layer of indirection on top of the testing framework
  223. # [09:28] <jgraham> For some reason
  224. # [09:28] <jgraham> Hardly the most obvious example to lean from
  225. # [09:28] <jgraham> *learn
  226. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  227. # [09:30] <jgraham> I don't know what is the *best* example to use
  228. # [09:35] <Ms2ger> My tests, duh :)
  229. # [09:35] <jgraham> Something like Opera's classList tests or something
  230. # [09:36] <jgraham> Ms2ger: You submitted so many it was hard to find a nice self-contained example with > 1 test per page and not too much extraneous stuff
  231. # [09:36] <jgraham> Well I don't mean extraneous
  232. # [09:37] <jgraham> I mean "extra functions and stuff that are not just direct use of the test harness"
  233. # [09:37] <Ms2ger> And testing something you don't have to read four specs to understand? :)
  234. # [09:39] <jgraham> I wasn't so concerned with whether people would understand the pass condition ;)
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  236. # [09:39] <jgraham> Maybe something from DOM?
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  242. # [10:01] <Ms2ger> Hrm
  243. # [10:01] <Ms2ger> jgraham, is jl someone you can forward questions to?
  244. # [10:02] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Yes, in general. No now in specific (he is on vacation)
  245. # [10:02] <Ms2ger> Hm
  246. # [10:03] <Ms2ger> Then, do you know why new Event("foo").eventPhase is AT_TARGET in Opera?
  247. # [10:03] <Ms2ger> It's NONE in Chrome and Gecko
  248. # [10:03] <Ms2ger> And afaict in the spec
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  250. # [10:03] <jgraham> It could just be a bug
  251. # [10:05] <Ms2ger> Also, I guess I shouldn't use assert_idl_attribute for methods
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  255. # [10:07] <Ms2ger> Oh
  256. # [10:07] <Ms2ger> Opera doesn't have Event.NONE?
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  261. # [10:08] <odinho> Ms2ger: Yeah, seem to remember something like that.
  262. # [10:09] <odinho> Ms2ger: sof just fixed `contains` on Node not Element, btw. Thanks for the heads up. :)
  263. # [10:09] <Ms2ger> Ah, nice
  264. # [10:14] <odinho> Ms2ger: So... Are you writing this test just now?
  265. # [10:15] <Ms2ger> Which?
  266. # [10:15] <Ms2ger> I'm adding a bit to http://localhost/tests/webapps/DOMCore/tests/submissions/Ms2ger/Event-constructors.html
  267. # [10:15] <Ms2ger> (With obvious substitution to get a URL you can access :))
  268. # [10:18] <Ms2ger> odinho, so about those IDB tests...
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  273. # [10:22] <Ms2ger> jgraham, dunno what you were looking at for the example, but maybe http://w3c-test.org/webapps/DOMCore/tests/submissions/Ms2ger/Event-constructors.html ?
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  277. # [10:24] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: We simply never added support for Event.NONE, so no.
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  279. # [10:24] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, do you have a bug?
  280. # [10:25] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p50829CB5.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  281. # [10:27] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: odinho claimed not
  282. # [10:27] <odinho> odinho was thinking about making it when having a test to add to it :P
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  284. # [10:29] <gsnedders> odinho: Work quicker!
  285. # [10:29] <Ms2ger> http://w3c-test.org/webapps/DOMCore/tests/submissions/Ms2ger/Event-constants.html
  286. # [10:29] <odinho> gsnedders: Imma like multitasking, you might steal that task.
  287. # [10:29] <odinho> Ms2ger: What about those?
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  290. # [10:31] <Ms2ger> odinho, are Microsoft's tests completely redundant?
  291. # [10:31] <odinho> Ms2ger: Yeah, -- and they're wrong.
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  294. # [10:35] <Ms2ger> odinho, can we get rid of them?
  295. # [10:36] <jgraham> Microsoft?
  296. # [10:39] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Those tests might be OK, although the pattern of having multiple independent asserts in the same test is mildly troubling
  297. # [10:39] <odinho> (Some places)
  298. # [10:39] <odinho> They get 40% pass on my version of their own tests. While they get 100% on their own.
  299. # [10:39] <odinho> Or they're probably just not as strict. I should investigate why they get such a low score. Sshouldnt be like that.
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  301. # [10:40] <jgraham> I mean it's not bad and I do it too, but it isn't the nicest bit of testharness.js
  302. # [10:41] <odinho> Ms2ger: Hmm. Well, it's Alex that's test facilitator for IDB, -- so guess there'll be hurt feelings etc if you just remove them :P
  303. # [10:42] <odinho> And I guess they're updating them some more behind the scenes.
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  305. # [10:45] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: unitless needs to work in rect(10 10 10 10)
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  309. # [10:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: http://packages.python.org/six/
  310. # [11:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: Still not sure it helps me.
  311. # [11:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: Have looked before, etc
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  363. # [12:53] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, it's only the terms defined in html.json that get into html-generated.json... Would be nice to get them pulled out of the spec somehow
  364. # [12:54] <zcorpan> yeah
  365. # [12:55] <zcorpan> maybe the spec splitter can output a json with all the terms and their urls?
  366. # [12:56] <zcorpan> or i guess the splitter doesn't care about terms
  367. # [12:56] <zcorpan> but anolis itself knows what the terms are when it generates the spec
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  370. # [13:16] <odinho> Ms2ger: Heh, did you actually have AT_TARGET in the test before there? Why? Only tested in Opera ( ;-) ).
  371. # [13:17] <Ms2ger> odinho, I blame annevk / jl
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  374. # [13:20] <odinho> lol, I wonder how that happened
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  376. # [13:21] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, I guess jgraham runs that instance...
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  378. # [13:21] <Ms2ger> odinho, "hey, let's test the initial values of some stuff"
  379. # [13:21] <Ms2ger> odinho, "let's check what Opera returns"
  380. # [13:21] <Ms2ger> (I assume)
  381. # [13:22] <odinho> Ms2ger: Ah, so you say you didn't write it. That makes it clearer :-)
  382. # [13:22] <Ms2ger> Yeah, my name in the URL is a lie
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  435. # [16:22] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18631 was filed on whatwg/html but is now moved to htmlwg/canvas. not that i understand the bug really and i'll be happy to not get emails for the spam he generates, but what's our story with bugs filed on the w3c specs?
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  438. # [16:27] <zcorpan> i guess someone(tm) should keep an eye on the w3c bugs and clone the ones that are relevant
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  440. # [16:29] <zcorpan> also, MikeSmith, can you ask that user to behave in bugzilla (not spam)
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  444. # [16:43] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, fwiw, he also filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=783942
  445. # [16:44] <zewt> [Great Idea]
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  447. # [16:45] <zcorpan> yeah, shows the same behavior
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  451. # [16:48] <zcorpan> i'll just send him an email
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  466. # [17:36] <hober> zcorpan: yeah, things shouldn't get moved from whatwg/html to an htmlwg component; they should be cloned.
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  469. # [17:37] <zcorpan> hober: feel free to move it back and clone it (or say it should be cloned in a comment)
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  471. # [17:38] <zewt> (cloning bugs is a pretty great way to fragment discussion and confuse everyone)
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  473. # [17:40] <jgraham> Well yeah, but so is having two specs developing in parallel that are mostly the same but have subtle differences
  474. # [17:41] <jgraham> The only thing it's better than (in this case) is *not* doing that
  475. # [17:41] <zewt> doing two horrible things is generally considered worse than doing one horrible thing
  476. # [17:42] <jgraham> You have a proposal for how to organise the bugs so taht no cloning is needed but the specs aren't coupled in the way they were before?
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  481. # [17:47] <zewt> you ask that as if cloning bugs is actually a "solution"
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  534. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Ah, you're right, I missed that. I'll add that in.
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  537. # [19:37] <smaug____> abarth: ping
  538. # [19:37] <abarth> smaug____: hi
  539. # [19:37] <smaug____> abarth: just curious, how does webkit handle expandos on DOM nodes
  540. # [19:38] * Joins: dgathright (~dgathrigh@c-67-169-92-165.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  541. # [19:38] <smaug____> element.fooproperty = element; for example
  542. # [19:38] * smaug____ is quite amazed that cycles are so hard for webkit
  543. # [19:39] <abarth> I'm not sure I understand your question
  544. # [19:40] <abarth> expandos are handled inside the javascript engine
  545. # [19:40] <abarth> and are not represented in C++
  546. # [19:40] <smaug____> but C++ object doesn't keep the JS wrapper alive?
  547. # [19:41] <abarth> not directly
  548. # [19:41] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  549. # [19:41] <abarth> we use the C++ object graph to inform the JS engine about connections between the wrappers
  550. # [19:41] <abarth> the JS engine then decides whether those connections mean that the wrappers should be kept alive
  551. # [19:42] <smaug____> ah
  552. # [19:43] <smaug____> so there is mini cycle analyzer somewhere
  553. # [19:43] <smaug____> kind of
  554. # [19:43] <smaug____> cycle or connection analysis ...
  555. # [19:43] <abarth> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1OFG81taxgjOGU43sv9WHvPZkt5--KnM6gSijWN8NMcU/edit?disco=AAAAAECHbXY#slide=id.g16a516bb_1_53
  556. # [19:43] <abarth> see slide 53 and onwards in that presentation
  557. # [19:43] <abarth> the JavaScript garbage collector can deal with cycles
  558. # [19:44] <abarth> because it uses mark-and-sweep
  559. # [19:44] <abarth> however, cycles cause leaks in the C++ heap
  560. # [19:44] <abarth> WebKit has a separate heap for C++ objects and for JavaScript objects
  561. # [19:44] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  562. # [19:44] <smaug____> sure, same with Gecko
  563. # [19:45] <smaug____> but Gecko just can deal with cycle in C++ too
  564. # [19:45] <smaug____> and C++->JS->C++ cycles
  565. # [19:45] <smaug____> and based on the comments, also Opera and IE can deal with C++->JS->C++ cycles easily
  566. # [19:46] <smaug____> so I'm rather reluctant to change APIs because of one engine
  567. # [19:46] <abarth> sadly, WebKit isn't that smart
  568. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> Yet.
  569. # [19:46] <abarth> well, then we won't be able to implement the API
  570. # [19:46] <abarth> its not possible to do without massive changes to the engine
  571. # [19:46] <abarth> or memory leaks
  572. # [19:46] <smaug____> TabAtkins: yeah, I assume webkit will have to be changed to handle cycles
  573. # [19:47] <abarth> that's not going to happen
  574. # [19:47] <smaug____> why not?
  575. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> Kentaro is investigating moving DOM to JS.
  576. # [19:47] <abarth> smaug____: are you volunteering to do the work?
  577. # [19:47] <smaug____> no :)
  578. # [19:47] <abarth> smaug____: because it's quite difficult
  579. # [19:47] <smaug____> I have enough fun with Gecko's cycle collector
  580. # [19:48] <abarth> TabAtkins: kentaro concluded that we shouldn't do it because it would be slower, at least based on current designs
  581. # [19:49] <abarth> smaug____: I don't intend to be a stick in the mud, it's just not something that's possible to implement in a feasible amount of time
  582. # [19:49] <TabAtkins> I don't believe Kentaro is set on that, and others in the thread are more optimistic about experimenting with this.
  583. # [19:49] <abarth> TabAtkins: well, blocking UndoManager on DOM-in-JS basically means UndoManager won't happen anytime soon
  584. # [19:50] <TabAtkins> Ah, I didn't know the context of this discussion.
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  586. # [19:51] <smaug____> abarth: oh, sure, something like CC isn't a trivial task. Has taken ages to get performance to reasonable level in Gecko.
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  589. # [19:53] <smaug____> but still, limiting Web APIs just because one engine hasn't been updated to have such a core memory management functionality would be odd
  590. # [19:54] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|lunch
  591. # [19:55] <abarth> smaug____: You're welcome to have whatever opinion you like on that topic. The facts on the ground are that we cannot implement the API as specified. Therefore, if you'd like WebKit to implement the API, the specification needs to change.
  592. # [19:56] * Joins: SonicX (~quassel@223.196.240.143)
  593. # [19:56] <smaug____> or someone needs to fix webkit to handle cycles and implement undomanager after that
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  596. # [19:57] <abarth> smaug____: right, but the schedule for that is basically "not any time soon", so it's the same as not implementing it
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  598. # [19:58] * smaug____ doesn't agree :)
  599. # [19:58] <abarth> it's not a matter of opinion
  600. # [19:58] <abarth> what part don't you agree with?
  601. # [19:58] <abarth> you think someone is going to change WebKit's memory model sometime soon?
  602. # [19:58] <smaug____> "it's the same as not implementing it"
  603. # [19:59] <smaug____> you can implement UndoManager next year
  604. # [19:59] <abarth> it won't happen
  605. # [19:59] <smaug____> (there must be some huge pressure inside Google to get UndoManager to Chrome)
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  607. # [20:01] <abarth> why do you say that?
  608. # [20:01] <smaug____> just wondering
  609. # [20:01] <smaug____> why you can't implement UndoManager later
  610. # [20:01] <jamesr> if you have to implement a cycle collector to implement UndoManager i can't imagine why we would ever do it
  611. # [20:01] <smaug____> and try to fix memory management first
  612. # [20:01] <abarth> smaug____: later => never
  613. # [20:02] <jamesr> if this is the only thing in the web platform that requires it, why would we do something so complicated and slow?
  614. # [20:02] <abarth> because it's unlikely we'll ever implement this new memory management model
  615. # [20:02] <smaug____> jamesr: I'm pretty sure there will be plenty of web APIs which will cause similar cycle issues
  616. # [20:02] <abarth> not that will be implemented in WebKit
  617. # [20:03] <smaug____> jamesr: cycle collector doesn't need to be slow
  618. # [20:04] <jamesr> but it is
  619. # [20:04] <smaug____> in normal cases it isn't
  620. # [20:04] <smaug____> when optimized
  621. # [20:04] <abarth> smaug____: please feel free to contribute a patch
  622. # [20:04] <abarth> smaug____: without code, I don't believe you
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  624. # [20:05] <abarth> as far as I can tell, it requires at least one extra brach for every Node edge write
  625. # [20:05] <abarth> or at least, we haven't figured out a design that can avoid that branch
  626. # [20:05] <abarth> maybe one exists
  627. # [20:06] <abarth> now, it's possible we can get that speed back by removing an increment operation, but we've optimized out almost all of the increment operations
  628. # [20:08] <othermaciej> smaug____, abarth: I'm skeptical of multiple UndoManagers per document anyway
  629. # [20:08] <smaug____> Oh, that is different thing
  630. # [20:08] <othermaciej> the use case provided (vector graphics editor embedded in a rich text editor) doesn't work the way it's proposed in real apps
  631. # [20:08] <smaug____> we certainly need one UndoManager per input field
  632. # [20:08] <othermaciej> for example, Keynote lets you edit vector graphics and text in the same document
  633. # [20:09] <othermaciej> and it exposes a single undo list per window
  634. # [20:09] <othermaciej> in fact, it's the norm for all Mac apps to have a single undo list per window
  635. # [20:09] <othermaciej> even if the window holds a compound document, or multiple text fields
  636. # [20:09] <othermaciej> I don't know for sure about other platforms
  637. # [20:09] <othermaciej> but at least as proposed, the API would result in web apps violating the Mac HI guidelines
  638. # [20:10] <zewt> (mac UIs make me want to cut myself)
  639. # [20:10] <smaug____> :)
  640. # [20:10] <othermaciej> are there any platforms where native apps really do have separate modal undo lists?
  641. # [20:10] <smaug____> rniwa: you were testing this
  642. # [20:11] <smaug____> and yes, there are such apps
  643. # [20:11] <othermaciej> the use cases document that I looked at didn't seem to list real-world examples (but I may have overlooked it)
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  645. # [20:12] <othermaciej> in any case, even if apps like that are the norm on Windows, you'd want to design the API so that you can have either modal undo lists or a single interleaved undo list depending on local platform conventions
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  647. # [20:19] <rniwa> smaug____: testing what?
  648. # [20:19] <smaug____> native apps and undo handling
  649. # [20:21] <rniwa> othermaciej: even on Mac, each text field has its own undo maanger
  650. # [20:21] <rniwa> othermaciej: because each text field is implemented as a seprate view.
  651. # [20:22] <rniwa> othermaciej: i'm open to amend the spec if you have a concrete proposal.
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  675. # [20:55] <jgraham> rniwa: What's the state of running testharness.js/W3C tests in webkit?
  676. # [20:55] <rniwa> jgraham: it runs :)
  677. # [20:55] <rniwa> jgraham: testharness.js has been imported to WebKit
  678. # [20:55] <rniwa> jgraham: and W3C reftests are supported to some extent.
  679. # [20:55] <rniwa> jgraham: we're still discussing the process by which we import tests
  680. # [20:56] <rniwa> jgraham: we've found that we have to make a bunch of imporvements to our testing infrastrucutre first
  681. # [20:56] <rniwa> jgraham: in order to import more tests.
  682. # [20:56] <jgraham> I see
  683. # [20:56] <rniwa> jgraham: you can see some tests for regions and undo manager written using testharness.js already
  684. # [20:56] <rniwa> jgraham: those can be upstreamed directly to W3C repository
  685. # [21:00] <othermaciej> rniwa: do you mean each text field has its own undo manager in reality, or in your proposal?
  686. # [21:00] <rniwa> othermaciej: yes.
  687. # [21:00] <rniwa> othermaciej: in realitiy on mac
  688. # [21:00] <othermaciej> rniwa: when I open a test document with two <input type=text>, I get a single unified undo list
  689. # [21:00] <rniwa> othermaciej: on native Mac apps
  690. # [21:00] <rniwa> othermaciej: not on WebKit
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  692. # [21:02] <rniwa> othermaciej: if you have text fields on Mac app, undos in each text field aren't usually put int a single undo stack.
  693. # [21:03] <othermaciej> rniwa: ok, I can repro that sort of, but what I actually see is that changing focus from one text field to another (e.g. in Mail prefs) wipes the undo stack
  694. # [21:03] <othermaciej> rniwa: in other words, switching focus back doesn't get you the old undo list
  695. # [21:04] <rniwa> othermaciej: that's a good point.
  696. # [21:05] <othermaciej> I don't know of any app where you truly have multiple independent undo lists in one window
  697. # [21:05] <othermaciej> I think the text field behavior may not be fully intended, I think it is an artifact of the fact that the real editable text field only exists temporarily while you have focus, and gets recycled when you change focus
  698. # [21:06] <othermaciej> WebKit doesn't have that issue which is why actually we let you undo across multiple fields
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  700. # [21:06] <rniwa> othermaciej: possibly.
  701. # [21:06] <rniwa> othermaciej: but we can't have one undo manager per page
  702. # [21:06] <rniwa> othermaciej: that'll lead to the said cross-origin problem
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  704. # [21:06] <rniwa> othermaciej: so we need to have at least one undo manager per document.
  705. # [21:07] <othermaciej> you pointed me to a security bug that said it might be a problem, but it didn't identify an actual problem
  706. # [21:07] <othermaciej> that being said, one per document is much closer to reasonable UI, and much saner to implement
  707. # [21:07] <othermaciej> so it would still be a big improvement
  708. # [21:07] <rniwa> othermaciej: the problem is that you can trigger undo/redo on a cross-origin document
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  710. # [21:08] <rniwa> othermaciej: given that we have seamless iframe
  711. # [21:08] <rniwa> othermaciej: it might be okay.
  712. # [21:08] <othermaciej> right, and that seems bad in theory, but I'm not totally sure what the real danger of that is
  713. # [21:09] <rniwa> othermaciej: restricting undo manager to be per-document will solve a whole bunch of problems we've had.
  714. # [21:09] <othermaciej> security problems? or implementation problems?
  715. # [21:09] <rniwa> othermaciej: what is?
  716. # [21:09] <othermaciej> "restricting undo manager to be per-document will solve a whole bunch of problems we've had"
  717. # [21:09] <othermaciej> what kind of problems?
  718. # [21:10] <rniwa> othermaciej: reference cycle problem
  719. # [21:10] <rniwa> othermaciej: having to "disconnect" undo manager when the node moves from one place to another in the same document
  720. # [21:10] <rniwa> othermaciej: or having to adopt an undo manager from one document to another
  721. # [21:10] <rniwa> othermaciej: undoscope also depends on contenteditable because it doesn't make any sense to have multiple undo managers in the same editable region
  722. # [21:11] <othermaciej> oh, you mean relative to per-node
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  724. # [21:11] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  725. # [21:11] <rniwa> othermaciej: that also adds a lot of complications for us because content-editability is specified by CSS in WebKit
  726. # [21:11] <othermaciej> I thought you meant per-document relative to per-top-level
  727. # [21:11] <rniwa> othermaciej: yeah.
  728. # [21:11] <rniwa> othermaciej: I'm saying that per-document is much better implementation wise
  729. # [21:11] <rniwa> othermaciej: it'll solve all sorts of problems we face
  730. # [21:11] <othermaciej> yeah, it's simpler to implement, and probably better in terms of user experience
  731. # [21:12] <rniwa> othermaciej: potentially.
  732. # [21:22] <rniwa> othermaciej: could you reply to the public-webapps thread we have?
  733. # [21:22] <rniwa> othermaciej: i breifly talked with ojan about this
  734. # [21:22] <rniwa> othermaciej: and we both agreed that we can just get rid of undoscope attribute
  735. # [21:22] <othermaciej> yeah, I can
  736. # [21:22] * othermaciej adds a TODO item
  737. # [21:22] <rniwa> othermaciej: it simplieis a lot of thigns, and it seems like an overall win.
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  742. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> D'oh, I hate responding to a very long well-intentioned suggestion email with "You're wrong in every way. Sorry.".
  743. # [21:44] <Hixie> welcome to my life
  744. # [21:44] <Hixie> you start to get a large portfolio of ways to say "no"
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  746. # [21:47] <Hixie> still no hsivonen about? is he on vacation or something? anyone know?
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  749. # [21:52] <jgraham> Hixie: Pretty sure he is never here at this time even when he is about
  750. # [21:53] <jgraham> (the stats page confirms this)
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  752. # [21:57] <Hixie> he's been idle for four days
  753. # [21:57] <Hixie> so i'm not sure regular hours apply :-)
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  770. # [22:51] <hober> note to self: don't use *scratch* when generating editor boilerplate replies.
  771. # [22:52] <jgraham> You didn't manage to make the editor bilerplate valid elisp?
  772. # [22:53] <jgraham> +o
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  796. # [23:41] <Hixie> TabAtkins: fallback leads to authors not noticing the problem which leads to more network traffic for lower quality results than the ideal result the author wanted
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  800. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but lack of fallback means the user is punished by not having an image when a less-good substitute is available.
  801. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> (I'm for dropping the fallback, but the CSSWG wanted me to pursue requesting a change to HTML first.)
  802. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> These two positions appear to be the fundamental argument.
  803. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> It's what we settled into at the f2f.
  804. # [23:43] <Hixie> if the author sees the problem, they'll likely fix it, so the user will get the high quality image
  805. # [23:43] <Hixie> so no fallback seems net better for the user in the longer term
  806. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> Fallback = better user experience when there's a minor problem, No Fallback = less network traffic and better chance of noticing the problem.
  807. # [23:47] <zewt> are there script-visible effects from srcset that might change asynchronously if a fallback happens? (if so, that would be a significant complication)
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  809. # [23:48] <Hixie> zewt: sure, the image dimensions would change
  810. # [23:48] <Hixie> technically btw the html spec allows fallback today, iirc
  811. # [23:48] <zewt> that would be very bad, I think (since it's one of those rare things that nobody would ever handle, even if we gave them a way)
  812. # [23:48] <Hixie> since you can arbitrarily decide to rerun the algorithm and arbitrarily pick anything from the list
  813. # [23:49] <Hixie> but that's just like technically the spec allows the UA to not show the image inline at all but to project it onto a second monitor with the colours reversed, or whatnot
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The end :)