/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-08-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 24 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:03] <Hixie> heycam: i got some [AllowAny] DOMString arguments, do I just drop [AllowAny] ?
  6. # [00:04] <heycam> Hixie, yes DOMString arguments should always be preferred when an argument doesn't match the other overload types
  7. # [00:05] <Hixie> ok
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  14. # [00:13] <Hixie> heycam: so there's no difference between an attribute that's "attribute any foo;" and one where it's "attribute (DOMString | SpecialFoo) foo;" except that in the latter case things like coaxing to DOMString if the input is null or { valueOf: ... } etc are handled by Web IDL?
  15. # [00:14] <Hixie> er, "or", not "|"
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  21. # [00:16] <Hixie> heycam: and if so, is there a way for me to define that i want an attribute that on setting always coaxes the input to DOMString but on getting could return "any"?
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  27. # [00:37] <heycam> Hixie, for the first question, yes that's right; for the second, unfortunately there isn't
  28. # [00:37] <Hixie> k
  29. # [00:37] <Hixie> is there an equivalent for [AllowAny] for "long" ?
  30. # [00:38] <heycam> no, but if there is no DOMString argument overloaded with it it will select the long
  31. # [00:38] <Hixie> i have a method where UAs treat integers one way, and everything else 0
  32. # [00:38] <Hixie> do i have to make it take any?
  33. # [00:38] <heycam> I don't think so, let me check though
  34. # [00:39] <Hixie> (HTMLOptionCollection.remove())
  35. # [00:39] <heycam> so you want f("abc") and f(node) to be like f(0)?
  36. # [00:39] <Hixie> yeah
  37. # [00:39] <Hixie> and f(NaN)
  38. # [00:39] <heycam> ok so I *think* it might be like that currently but I'll just confirm]
  39. # [00:39] <Hixie> and f(0.5)
  40. # [00:39] * heycam always forgets what the latest state of all the overload resolution stuff is
  41. # [00:40] <Hixie> but f(60.5) treated as f(60) apparently
  42. # [00:40] <heycam> always truncating?
  43. # [00:40] <Hixie> i've tested four numbers so far
  44. # [00:40] <Hixie> they all seemed to truncate
  45. # [00:40] <Hixie> but what do i know
  46. # [00:40] <heycam> ha
  47. # [00:41] <Hixie> seems like it truncates for all the numbers i care about
  48. # [00:41] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  49. # [00:41] <Hixie> -0.1 and -0.9 => 0
  50. # [00:41] <heycam> ok so that should be right, if you don't have an exact match then it'll prefer a DOMString argument, and if there's no DOMString argument it'll prefer a primitive argument
  51. # [00:41] <heycam> so it's then just down to the normal rules for converting to long
  52. # [00:41] <Hixie> ah cool
  53. # [00:41] <heycam> if they match what you need..
  54. # [00:41] <Hixie> so if i have a method that takes a long it'll never throw TYPE_MISMATCH?
  55. # [00:42] <Hixie> or whatever hte exception is
  56. # [00:42] <heycam> (TypeError)
  57. # [00:42] <heycam> right
  58. # [00:42] <Hixie> how convenient
  59. # [00:42] <Hixie> ok
  60. # [00:42] <Hixie> cool
  61. # [00:42] <Hixie> thanks
  62. # [00:42] <heycam> cool
  63. # [00:45] <Hixie> it astounds me how good a job we are doing of speccing the web platform these days, compared to where we were 13 years ago
  64. # [00:46] <Hixie> (web idl being a huge part of that)
  65. # [00:46] <heycam> hooray
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  69. # [00:54] <Yuhong> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/
  70. # [00:54] <Yuhong> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Evolution
  71. # [00:54] <Yuhong> I wonder what happened
  72. # [00:57] <Hixie> hober: your copy/paste resolutions are cute :-P
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  76. # [01:04] <Hixie> hober: is there any documentation anywhere that tracks which revisions the w3c spec has adopted and which it hasn't?
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  78. # [01:09] <Hixie> hober: also, is there something somewhere i can use to keep track of the decisions that were applied? I'm trying to update the list of ways the specs are forked
  79. # [01:10] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
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  81. # [01:21] <Yuhong> DirectX vs OpenGL again, now against CSS Shaders: http://codeflow.org/entries/2012/aug/22/css-shaders-w3c-microsoft-and-broken-standards/
  82. # [01:23] <jamesr> the rant is strong with this one
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  84. # [01:23] <zewt> yeah i closed the window as soon as i saw every other word bolded with some randomly in weird colors
  85. # [01:25] <zewt> (the distracting animations and mugshot didn't help on the "worth reading" scale, either)
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  95. # [01:36] <Yuhong> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4422022
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  103. # [01:48] <Yuhong> jamesr: But considering it is MS fragmenting the web yet again, I am not surprised.
  104. # [01:49] <jamesr> i think the article is really misinformed
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  167. # [04:47] <roc> in what way?
  168. # [04:53] <jamesr> roc, was that to me?
  169. # [04:53] <roc> yes
  170. # [04:54] <jamesr> it's supposing that microsoft wants to introduce their own shading language. i suspect they simply want to avoid the IPR obligations that requiring glsl would imply
  171. # [04:54] <jamesr> i really doubt they want anything at all
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  173. # [04:56] <roc> IIRC the IPR argument was not raised the first time they objected to specifying GLSL
  174. # [04:56] <roc> I could be wrong.
  175. # [04:57] <jamesr> just because they didn't say it doesn't mean they weren't thinking it
  176. # [04:58] <roc> I suppose you could strike "They prefer their own shading language they call IESL.", but that doesn't affect the thrust of the rant, which is that it's absurd to standardize "CSS Shaders" without a standard common shading language
  177. # [04:58] <jamesr> i don't think they even want to standardize css shaders
  178. # [04:59] <roc> if not, they're not saying it for some reason
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  181. # [05:00] <jamesr> it doesn't really impact them at all if someone goes off and creates a standard unless it triggers IPR for them
  182. # [05:00] <roc> sure it does, because they'll be expected to support it sooner or later.
  183. # [05:01] <roc> it's kinda hard to avoid the conclusion that they don't like GLSL for the same reason they don't like WebGL. The reason for *that* is a bit more speculative, but maybe not much more :-)
  184. # [05:02] <jamesr> it doesn't really matter if they object on IPR grounds, which they definitely do
  185. # [05:02] <jamesr> so making further conspiracy theories just seems like a waste of time
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  187. # [05:05] <othermaciej> Microsoft seems to be asking for GLSL to be a MAY-level rather than SHOULD-level requirement
  188. # [05:05] <othermaciej> at least in that original email
  189. # [05:06] <othermaciej> I think anything less than a MUST does not trigger w3c IPR commitments
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  192. # [05:24] <othermaciej> hmm, Sylvain seems to think SHOULD and RECOMMENDED mean different things in RFC2119 language
  193. # [05:29] <othermaciej> but I guess it does not matter since both appear to trigger the patent policy - optional features are covered as long as they are normative
  194. # [05:29] <othermaciej> however, the patent policy excludes "technology developed elsewhere and merely incorporated by reference in the body of the Recommendation"
  195. # [05:30] <roc> I would have expected GLSL to be excluded by that
  196. # [05:31] <othermaciej> so I think the IPR claim is doubtful
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  198. # [05:31] <othermaciej> it is hard to assess the non-IPR objections, the thread has a poor signal-to-noise ratio
  199. # [05:31] <jamesr> yeah the thread is crap
  200. # [05:31] <jamesr> othermaciej, do you think he's not assessing it in terms of IPR and he's wrong, or that's not his concern?
  201. # [05:32] <jamesr> sorry too many negatives. do you think his assessment of the RFC2119 triggers is wrong, or that's not what he is bothered by?
  202. # [05:32] <othermaciej> his claims about IPR are:
  203. # [05:32] <othermaciej> (1) RECOMMENDED is an RFC2119 keyword that "is not just an optional should"
  204. # [05:33] <othermaciej> (2) therefore the W3C patent policy likely applies to IPR on GLSL
  205. # [05:33] <othermaciej> these statements are false or misleading for the following reasons:
  206. # [05:34] <othermaciej> (A) RECOMMENDED and SHOULD are synonyms in RFC2119, so they have no difference in normative effect (I am puzzled how he could miss this while quoting the RFC_
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  208. # [05:34] <othermaciej> (B) The W3C patent policy covers optional features so long as they are normatively specified, so the fact that recommended is in fact optional does not matter
  209. # [05:35] <othermaciej> C) however the w3c patent policy excludes technologies developed elsewhere and incorporated by reference, so it likely would not apply to GLSL in any case
  210. # [05:35] * Joins: crocket (~crocket@unaffiliated/crocket)
  211. # [05:36] <crocket> What do I use instead of <frame> with HTML5 web pages?
  212. # [05:36] <crocket> <frame> is obsolete.
  213. # [05:36] <jamesr> <iframe> typically
  214. # [05:36] <othermaciej> that depends on what you are trying to do
  215. # [05:36] <othermaciej> if you want an independently browsable area that really needs to hold separate pages, <iframe>
  216. # [05:36] <crocket> hmm....
  217. # [05:37] <othermaciej> if you just want your page to have separate areas that scroll independently, CSS overflow: scroll
  218. # [05:37] <crocket> I know what <iframe> is.
  219. # [05:37] <othermaciej> (that is, make it all one page and use overflow: scroll on the scroll containers)
  220. # [05:37] <crocket> othermaciej, Can you show me an example of how CSS overflow property works?
  221. # [05:38] <othermaciej> crocket: not offhand but if you google or bing it I am sure you will find some good tutorials
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  223. # [05:39] <crocket> othermaciej, ok
  224. # [05:39] <crocket> kennyluck_, Who killed you?
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  227. # [05:43] <jamesr> othermaciej, is that something you can ask the w3c people to convince the microsoft lawyers of? your logic sounds reasonable, but IANAL and if they don't feel comfy here they are quite capable of blocking this for a long time
  228. # [05:43] <jamesr> i doubt replying on that thread could do much good, especially at this point
  229. # [05:44] <othermaciej> I am hesitant to wade into the topic since it is a flame-splosion right now
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  278. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> oh cool an interface index
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  280. # [08:31] <MikeSmith> non-element interfaces
  281. # [08:31] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-index.html#all-interfaces
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  291. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> http://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2012-August/022049.html is interesting
  292. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> Apple going all out on CSS Regions it seems
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  328. # [10:09] <odinho> Aiai, I think I think pipermail should always force linebreaks if there is none. Always have to monkeypatch it in Dragonfly to be able to read pipermail archives :P
  329. # [10:11] * Philip` just does ctrl+F11 (fit to width) in Opera
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  332. # [10:14] <odinho> Philip`: That should teach me to learn all of my browsers hidden features. :S Thanks! :D That's a super cool feature.
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  340. # [10:23] <jgraham> Bug annotations now have titles
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  345. # [10:51] <Ms2ger> jgraham++
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  350. # [11:02] <zcorpan> nice!
  351. # [11:02] <zcorpan> Hixie: it's a bit annoying that the bug links move when you hover. can the section link be moved to the bottom of the box, or so?
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  353. # [11:12] <jgraham> Argh, there was a WHATWG email and a gecko bug and maybe a spec bug about the interaction between loading and session history, and now I can't find any of them
  354. # [11:14] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://whatwg.org/specs/ doesn't list these specs: http://www.w3.org/community/whatwg/
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  361. # [11:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Test_cases might be better if we point people to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing
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  364. # [11:25] <zcorpan> Hixie: "and in five to ten years you'll finally be able to do it!" - it doesn't necessarily have to take 5+ years
  365. # [11:25] <jgraham> zcorpan: You could just edit some of these pages you know :)
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  416. # [13:22] <sedovsek> Just read this tweet:
  417. # [13:22] <sedovsek> https://twitter.com/w3c/status/238652019089485824
  418. # [13:22] <sedovsek> Twitter, Inc. (@TwitterEng) joined W3C http://dlvr.it/22l89w
  419. # [13:22] <sedovsek> Are there any Twitter employees that already contribute to W3C?
  420. # [13:22] <kennyluck> Not I know of.
  421. # [13:22] <sedovsek> If so, on which standards/drafts?
  422. # [13:23] <kennyluck> Tracking related stuff maybe?
  423. # [13:23] <sedovsek> I don't know, but I'm very curious.
  424. # [13:24] <sedovsek> Perhaps @TabAtkins has more insights?
  425. # [13:25] <kennyluck> sedovsek, if you know their corporate email domain, you can do a search here: http://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/search?keywords=
  426. # [13:25] <sedovsek> Thanks.
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  431. # [13:56] <carli2> hi
  432. # [13:56] <carli2> I tried to ask a question in #html, but that was forbidden
  433. # [13:57] <carli2> does this channel has to do with that?
  434. # [13:57] <jgraham> Have to do with HTML?
  435. # [13:58] <carli2> I wanted to ask if/how I can load a static JSON document into a html page
  436. # [13:58] <jgraham> Yes; this is mostly people involved with in the development of specs around the web platform
  437. # [13:58] <carli2> ah
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  439. # [13:59] <jgraham> carli2: If you are generating the while thing server-side you can probably do <script type="text/json">/*json data*/</script>
  440. # [14:00] <jgraham> If you want to pull in an enternal file, use XHR
  441. # [14:00] <carli2> jgraham: but how can I access the JSON object then? the script is executed in the global scope
  442. # [14:01] <jgraham> carli2: You can read the content of the script element and use JSON.parse
  443. # [14:01] <jgraham> Or whatever the method is called
  444. # [14:01] <carli2> ah
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  447. # [14:09] <carli2> jgraham: I cannot read the content from the <script> element
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  449. # [14:10] <jgraham> Internal or external script?
  450. # [14:10] <sedovsek> There's also a #html5 chann, which might be slightly more appropriate.
  451. # [14:10] <jgraham> An internal script should be readable with .textContent
  452. # [14:10] <sedovsek> an*
  453. # [14:10] <carli2> jgraham: should work for both, SO and non-SO
  454. # [14:10] <jgraham> Oh, well if you are trying to read data cross-origin things are harder
  455. # [14:11] <jgraham> Then you probably want to use CORS + XHR
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  563. # [17:25] <jgraham> So, is there an event I can get in the top level browsing context when I navigate the joint session history of a browsing context with nested browsing contexts in such a way that it is one of the child browsing contexts that chnages its document
  564. # [17:25] <jgraham> ?
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  567. # [17:25] <jgraham> i.e. I have a parent document A with an iframe in itially containing B. I navigate the iframe to C and then do history.go(-1)
  568. # [17:26] <jgraham> I want an event that will fire when I am back at B in the iframe
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  574. # [17:48] <Hixie> jgraham: i got method not allowed?
  575. # [17:52] <jgraham> Hixie: I forgot to restart the server. Try again?
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  581. # [17:58] <Hixie> jgraham: awesome
  582. # [17:58] <Hixie> ok i put it at the bottom of file-bug.cgi
  583. # [17:58] <Hixie> hopefully it doesn't break anything :-)
  584. # [17:59] <Hixie> this is awesome stuff
  585. # [17:59] <Hixie> really glad we did this
  586. # [17:59] <jgraham> Me too :)
  587. # [17:59] <Hixie> i also like my new styling for the boxes :-)
  588. # [18:00] <jgraham> Indeed, but see zcorpan's comment; having the bug link move on hover is annoying
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  590. # [18:00] <Hixie> moved it already
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  592. # [18:01] <jgraham> Oh, I didn't reload
  593. # [18:01] <jgraham> It takes a while ;)
  594. # [18:01] <Hixie> ok, afk for a bit
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  597. # [18:06] <jgraham> Hixie: New style is much better, thanks
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  644. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> All right, time to lose a few hours of productivity and get this new workstation set up.
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  672. # [19:46] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  674. # [19:46] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: vroom, vroom
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  731. # [21:20] <Hixie> is there anywhere i can make a note of some tests that should be added to the html test suite?
  732. # [21:21] <Hixie> (i want to note that we need to test that legacycaller isn't supported for all interfaces that have a getter)
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  736. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> Hixie, you can file a bug in the HTMLWG/testsuite product
  737. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> I might even see it there
  738. # [21:23] <Hixie> ah, cool, that's for actual bugs, not just infrastructure?
  739. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> Yep
  740. # [21:25] <Hixie> cool
  741. # [21:25] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18681
  742. # [21:25] <Hixie> that clear enough?
  743. # [21:26] <Ms2ger> Clear enough for me
  744. # [21:26] <Hixie> oooooh, would it help if i added something to the live dom viewer that automatically filed a bug in that component with the current contents?
  745. # [21:26] <Ms2ger> Hmm, would be nice
  746. # [21:27] <Ms2ger> Now all we need is a script to automatically translate it to an automated test :)
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  755. # [21:32] <Hixie> Ms2ger: default assignee, or should i assign to someone in particular?
  756. # [21:32] <Ms2ger> Default is fine
  757. # [21:33] <Hixie> anyone i should put in default cc?
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  759. # [21:36] <Ms2ger> Feel free to put me, but I don't think it's going to make me do anything sooner :)
  760. # [21:36] <Hixie> entirely up to you
  761. # [21:37] <Ms2ger> Don't, then, I get heaps of bugmail already :)
  762. # [21:37] <Hixie> i'd put myself in to monitor for abuse, but i send all w3c bugmail to trash :-)
  763. # [21:40] <jamesr> s/bugmail //
  764. # [21:41] <Hixie> i still monitor public-html in case anyone raises a bug i have to fix
  765. # [21:41] <Hixie> hasn't happened in recent years, but we never know...
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  775. # [22:07] <TabAtkins_> Yesssssss. Now to banish my old self.
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  787. # [22:17] <rubys> hixie: re: "hober: is there any documentation anywhere that tracks which revisions the w3c spec has adopted and which it hasn't? "
  788. # [22:18] <rubys> this is a small part of that (which bugs are still open that have clones):
  789. # [22:18] <rubys> http://intertwingly.net/tmp/clones.html
  790. # [22:18] <rubys> if I can build reports that are helpful, let me know
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  813. # [23:03] <hober> Hixie: you can follow along at https://github.com/w3c/html/commits/master/
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  817. # [23:03] <hober> (with regard to which revisions from the whatwg spec have been applied to the w3c spec)
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  837. # [23:33] <Hixie> hober: that tells me which have been applied, but not which have not :-)
  838. # [23:35] <hober> true
  839. # [23:37] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Any idea why the JSURL development stalled?
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  841. # [23:37] <Hixie> what is JSURL?
  842. # [23:38] <GPHemsley> The JavaScript URL standard
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  846. # [23:41] <GPHemsley> (mentioned in the recent r7265)
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  850. # [23:43] <Hixie> oh the javascript: spec?
  851. # [23:43] <Hixie> no iea
  852. # [23:43] <Hixie> idea
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  861. # Session Close: Sat Aug 25 00:00:01 2012

The end :)