/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-09-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 01 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:12] <Hixie> w
  8. # [00:12] <Hixie> t
  9. # [00:12] <Hixie> f
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  11. # [00:12] <Hixie> having established that NONE of the browsers behave even REMOTELY interoperably, i make some compromises and write a test that assumes them
  12. # [00:12] <Hixie> all the browsers fail, IN THE EXACT SAME WAY
  13. # [00:13] <Hixie> well, except IE
  14. # [00:13] <Hixie> no idea what IE is doing
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  16. # [00:15] <deane> Hang in there, Hixie,
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  18. # [00:19] <Hixie> oh i know what's wrong
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  21. # [00:31] <Hixie> ok with http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/document/open/unload/001.html firefox is close to passing what the spec says now
  22. # [00:32] <Hixie> IE is miles off. Opera has some more fundamental bugs with unload and d.o() so it's not in the running.
  23. # [00:32] <Hixie> webkit doesn't block off d.o() so it gets it wrong but that seems like something that shouldn't be too hard to fix
  24. # [00:33] * GPHemsley finds it interesting that no one ever seems to read the RFC 2119 errata.
  25. # [00:33] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/document/open/unload/002.html in webkit almost passes, it just forgets to fire beforeunload events and load/pagehide events in the current frame
  26. # [00:34] * GPHemsley wonders if that makes it worth replacing RFC 2119 with a new RFC that has the errata fixed.
  27. # [00:34] <Hixie> GPHemsley: no-one reads any rfc's errata (or w3c tr/ page rec errata)
  28. # [00:34] <GPHemsley> :)
  29. # [00:34] <Hixie> that's one of the many reasons snapshot spec dev is bogus :-)
  30. # [00:34] <GPHemsley> Ah! Good argument!
  31. # [00:34] <GPHemsley> But nevertheless, the RFC 2119 errata actually change the requirement for what an RFC 2119-compliant document must say.
  32. # [00:35] <GPHemsley> (due to an accidental omission)
  33. # [00:35] <GPHemsley> as a result, few people use the errata-corrected statement in their specs—living or otherwise
  34. # [00:37] <Hixie> does HTML get it right?
  35. # [00:37] <Hixie> (whatwg.org/html)
  36. # [00:38] <Hixie> gecko gets http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/document/open/unload/002.html almost right, it just doesn't fire unload and pagehide in the current doc for some reason
  37. # [00:38] <Hixie> (though it does fire beforeunload)
  38. # [00:39] <Hixie> opera is again off in the weeds
  39. # [00:39] <zewt> but you can't change the text of a spec once it's etched in concrete! because... because...
  40. # [00:39] <zewt> nothing is quite as painful as reading spec-diffs
  41. # [00:39] <Hixie> IE gets it right except for pagehide not firing because
  42. # [00:40] <Hixie> zewt: how about implementing a diff spec?
  43. # [00:40] <Hixie> zewt: (as wf2 was)
  44. # [00:40] <zewt> every opengl extension is like that
  45. # [00:40] <zewt> big lists of "add this text to this section"
  46. # [00:41] <Hixie> (i wonder why the people who are all up in arms against living standards aren't up in arms against errata)
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  48. # [00:41] <zewt> possibly because many of those people have "because we've always done it this way" mindsets
  49. # [00:42] <Hixie> ah, conservatism
  50. # [00:43] <zewt> conservatism itself isn't necessarily bad; changing how major things are done should be done with care--some people just go well beyond that
  51. # [00:43] <zewt> (as i'm sure you know :)
  52. # [00:44] <Hixie> nah, clearly we should just continually change things!!! :-)
  53. # [00:44] <Hixie> for the sake of it
  54. # [00:44] <zewt> it's fun!
  55. # [00:44] <Hixie> keeps people on their toes
  56. # [00:44] <zewt> so do tacks
  57. # [00:44] <GPHemsley> :)
  58. # [00:44] <Hixie> i'd think tacks keeps people in their shoes
  59. # [00:45] <zewt> also the "we learned this thing through experience 15 years ago, and therefore it applies for all time"
  60. # [00:45] * padenot is now known as padenot|away
  61. # [00:45] <Hixie> yeah well as i'm learning first hand today, things that we learnt through experience years ago can be wrong just because we didn't do a good job learning
  62. # [00:45] <Hixie> e.g. clearly my testing for document.open() and unload was inadequate back whenever i wrote this prose
  63. # [00:45] <zewt> such as new software still pretending that arbitrary encoding support is important--after all, we learned at great pain that it was important years ago, and hey, we might want to change away from utf-8 soon!
  64. # [00:46] <Hixie> yeah, also, it's not like the Web has come up since the IETF was started
  65. # [00:46] <Hixie> so nothing has changed there
  66. # [00:46] <GPHemsley> Hixie: The erratum is the exclusion of the phrase "NOT RECOMMENDED" in the list of RFC 2119 expressions. So no, HTML doesn't get it right. And neither does DOM4.
  67. # [00:46] <zewt> of course, you and I differ on some points I'd place in this category, such as sites requiring javascript :)
  68. # [00:47] <zewt> (but life would be boring if everyone agreed on everything, wouldn't it)
  69. # [00:47] <Hixie> GPHemsley: actually HTML does get _that_ right, it doesn't use the terms RECOMMENDED per RFC2119
  70. # [00:47] <GPHemsley> "The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in the normative parts of this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC2119."
  71. # [00:47] <GPHemsley> section 2.2
  72. # [00:48] <zewt> what the heck
  73. # [00:48] <zewt> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=2119 is this really the official place to get rfc errata
  74. # [00:49] * padenot|away is now known as padenot
  75. # [00:49] <zewt> i searched for "rfc2119 errata", this was the top link, and i closed it because it looked like some cheesy third-party site in order to find the real one
  76. # [00:49] <Hixie> GPHemsley: huh
  77. # [00:49] <zewt> ... but then the rfc itself linked me here
  78. # [00:49] <Hixie> GPHemsley: thanks for finding that
  79. # [00:49] <Hixie> GPHemsley: i need to make sure the spec is fixed there
  80. # [00:49] <zewt> i can see why nobody reads errata; i have to wade through needless typo fixes in order to find anything meaningful
  81. # [00:50] <zewt> can't just filter it; it has typo/grammar fixes marked "technical"
  82. # [00:50] <Hixie> GPHemsley: filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18761
  83. # [00:50] <GPHemsley> zewt: And then there's the fact that the BCP pages don't link to the errata pages of the RFCs that make them up
  84. # [00:51] <GPHemsley> Hixie: K. What should I do about DOM4?
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  86. # [00:52] <zewt> (2012 and reading RFC2119 is still formatted for an 80x60 fixed-width printer)
  87. # [00:52] <Hixie> GPHemsley: file a bug on it i guess :-)
  88. # [00:52] <Hixie> GPHemsley: it should say how to do that somewhere in the spec at the top
  89. # [00:52] <GPHemsley> ah
  90. # [00:52] <GPHemsley> ok
  91. # [00:53] <GPHemsley> Ah, not part of the WHATWG component
  92. # [00:53] <Hixie> well that sucks
  93. # [00:53] <Hixie> once again there is interop on a test i wrote, where the interop is all not matching the spec
  94. # [00:54] <zewt> GPHemsley: bugzilla's component system is pretty nightmarish, heh
  95. # [00:54] <Hixie> but this is after i carefully aligned the spec to match the compromise of everything the browsers did on other tests
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  97. # [00:55] <Hixie> wtf
  98. # [00:55] <Hixie> why are they all obeying document.open() in beforeunload!
  99. # [00:55] <Hixie> that is THE MAKING OF NO SENSE
  100. # [00:56] <Hixie> you can't allow document.open() in beforeunload AND fire beforeunload on document.open()!
  101. # [00:57] <zewt> oh? watch us!
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  103. # [00:58] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Welcome to the Hotel California. :)
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  105. # [00:59] <Hixie> i like how the browsers conveniently don't refire beforeunload in this one case
  106. # [00:59] <Hixie> because, you know, WHY BOTHER BEING CONSISTENT
  107. # [01:00] <GPHemsley> DOM4 bug is here: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18763
  108. # [01:00] <GPHemsley> Hixie: I'm sure they've all thought about this as much as you had right before you started thinking about it. ;)
  109. # [01:00] <Hixie> possible
  110. # [01:01] <zewt> bleh, Object.freeze seems more confusing than useful without strict mode to make sure it causes exceptions to be thrown, and strict mode sounds more dangerous than not with all the "awooga awooga: this causes varying behaviors" warnings around it
  111. # [01:01] <Hixie> c.f. modes considered harmful
  112. # [01:02] * padenot is now known as padenot|away
  113. # [01:02] <zewt> and i guess ie9 doesn't support it
  114. # [01:02] <zewt> so many years until it's viable
  115. # [01:03] <Hixie> ok i guess we can have one counter for onunload and one for onbeforeunload
  116. # [01:03] <Hixie> the onunload one would prevent d.o() from being called from unload
  117. # [01:03] <Hixie> the onbeforeunload would prevent d.o() from calling beforeunload
  118. # [01:03] <Hixie> because WHY NOT
  119. # [01:03] <zewt> i'll take the possibility of having a less-stupid-javascript mode down the road, but until it's universally supported (eg. until it's not *actually* a varying mode that I have to test both sides of), no thanks
  120. # [01:04] <Hixie> the other possibility is that i just say all the browsers are wildly wrong on this one test case and hope the implementors agree
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  122. # [01:04] <Hixie> any implementors around want to try to convince me one way or the other?
  123. # [01:04] <Hixie> more complexity but closer to current browsers; or further from current browsers but simpler?
  124. # [01:05] <Hixie> (there's no serious interop here)
  125. # [01:07] <GPHemsley> I think if the browser implementations vary wildly, it's probably the prime opportunity to bring logic *back* into the conversation
  126. # [01:07] <GPHemsley> just do whatever seems most logical
  127. # [01:08] <GPHemsley> (or does that not make it easier?)
  128. # [01:10] <GPHemsley> since they all do wildly different things, it seems OK to penalize them all for lack of logic and/or interoperability
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  138. # [01:32] <Hixie> GPHemsley: well, in theory i agree, but if that implies a greater delta from existing implementations, it's possible they'll prefer to remain where they are than risk change
  139. # [01:32] <GPHemsley> I'd be surprised if that were the case... but at least plan B isn't terrible :)
  140. # [01:33] <Hixie> i wouldn't at all be surprised one way or the other :-)
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  143. # [01:35] * GPHemsley shrugs
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  147. # [01:42] <GPHemsley> Hixie: I thought vendor prefixes were Bad™?
  148. # [01:42] * padenot is now known as padenot|away
  149. # [01:42] <Hixie> reality is more subtle; what's the specific case we're talking about?
  150. # [01:43] <zewt> "Considered Harmful" Considered Harmful
  151. # [01:43] <GPHemsley> just reading Section 2.2.3
  152. # [01:43] <Hixie> GPHemsley: that's abotu proprietary extensions, no?
  153. # [01:43] <GPHemsley> oh, yeah, maybe
  154. # [01:43] <Hixie> GPHemsley: the "vendor prefixes are bad" thing is usually regarding experiments driven from specs with active editors
  155. # [01:44] <Hixie> the key is just what'll get interop faster, basically
  156. # [01:44] <GPHemsley> I see
  157. # [01:44] <GPHemsley> so if it's already specced, they're bad
  158. # [01:44] <GPHemsley> but if it's not, then s'ok
  159. # [01:44] <GPHemsley> ?
  160. # [01:44] <zewt> not inherently, but they can be used badly (eg. for too long, etc)
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  162. # [01:45] <Hixie> man opera is so far away from the others on this document.open/unload thing that it's just kinda funny testing it
  163. # [01:45] <Hixie> GPHemsley: it's more subtle than that, but to a rough first approximation, ok
  164. # [01:46] <zewt> the prefixing concept is generally under reevaluation, and there isn't yet a consensus, so you'll get different answers depending on who you ask :)
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  166. # [01:47] <Hixie> well that's true about 'most anything
  167. # [01:47] <zewt> well, more so than it was until relatively recently
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  169. # [01:48] <Hixie> don't confuse silent disagreement or undiscovered disagreement for agreement
  170. # [01:48] <Hixie> any more than violent discussion should be confused for disagreement
  171. # [01:48] <Hixie> e.g. my position on prefixes hasn't changed in years
  172. # [01:48] <zewt> private disagreement is different than general community-wide reevaluation, though
  173. # [01:49] <zewt> call it disagreement with more momentum if you like :)
  174. # [01:49] <Hixie> communities don't reevaluate things
  175. # [01:49] <Hixie> people do :-)
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  178. # [01:56] <Hixie> one and a half days' work resolved one bug.
  179. # [01:56] <Hixie> not gonna make my targets at THAT rate!
  180. # [01:56] * padenot|away is now known as padenot
  181. # [01:57] <zewt> you could do what lots of projects do in my experience
  182. # [01:57] <zewt> periodically close all old bugs!
  183. # [01:57] <Hixie> my goal isn't to get to zero bugs
  184. # [01:57] <Hixie> my goal is to resolve all bugs
  185. # [01:57] <Hixie> :-P
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  188. # [01:59] <Hixie> jgraham's idea of putting the bug numbers in the spec, or rather, his actually doing it, is simply genius
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  200. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Is this better (for :read-only) http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors4/#rw-pseudos
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  208. # [03:14] <Hixie> TabAtkins: so all elements match one or the other?
  209. # [03:14] <Hixie> TabAtkins: what should type=radio match? it's neither user-alterable, nor read-only...
  210. # [03:15] <Hixie> TabAtkins: (also if you could make user-alterable some sort of obvious hook, e.g. give it an ID and make it italics or bold or something (<dfn>), that'd be ideal)
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  213. # [03:17] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'm thinking about implementing srcset and I have a question about the spec
  214. # [03:18] <Hixie> othermaciej: shoot
  215. # [03:18] <othermaciej> (since I actually have free time to code this weekend)
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  217. # [03:18] <othermaciej> ok, if an image has both src and srcset set, and src appears first textually
  218. # [03:18] <Hixie> (the order doesn't matter)
  219. # [03:18] <othermaciej> if the parser treats this as the src attribute being added and then the srcset attribute being added
  220. # [03:18] <Hixie> (attribute order never matters)
  221. # [03:19] <othermaciej> then the obvious consequence is that the load for the src resource will be initiated first
  222. # [03:19] <Hixie> the HTML parser is defined as adding all the attributes simultaneously
  223. # [03:19] <othermaciej> is that wrong?
  224. # [03:19] <othermaciej> ok
  225. # [03:20] <Hixie> hence the "or both" in: "A user agent that obtains images immediately must synchronously update the image data of an img element whenever that element is created with a src attribute, a srcset attribute, or both."
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  232. # [03:26] <othermaciej> thanks
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  234. # [03:29] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think WebKit probably has quite a few bugs in cases where that matters
  235. # [03:29] <othermaciej> Hixie: hmm, on second thought, maybe not
  236. # [03:29] <othermaciej> sorry for the noise
  237. # [03:30] <othermaciej> it looks like we set them all, then process one at a time, but each attribute when processed checks if the relevant others have been set
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  252. # [04:49] <othermaciej> man, if building wasn't so slow I'd be done implementing srcset by now (at least the subset handling resolution descriptors only)
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  261. # [05:12] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah, i've actually seen cases of browsers having bugs due to the attribute order mattering in practice
  262. # [05:12] <Hixie> othermaciej: surprisingly few, all things considered
  263. # [05:13] <othermaciej> I think I misinterpreted our code (though I certainly wouldn't promise we are bug-free in this area)
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  269. # [05:20] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yeah, it's either/or. This was based off the HTML definition. ^_^
  270. # [05:21] <TabAtkins> type=radio I'd consider user-alterable. You can alter the checkedness, which is *like* it's content.
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  277. # [05:42] <cabanier1> hixie: ping
  278. # [05:43] <cabanier1> I saw that you replace 'any' with a union in the Canvas spec
  279. # [05:45] <cabanier1> I think that that will change the behavior
  280. # [05:48] <Hixie> TabAtkins: html's was based on css' old one, that's why i asked fantasai to change it :-) there's some bug about it
  281. # [05:48] <Hixie> cabanier1: sounds plausible
  282. # [05:49] <Hixie> cabanier1: which change in particular?
  283. # [05:50] <cabanier1> [e] (0) Clean up some IDLs that use 'any' to specify the exact type instead, and clean up some surrounding markup
  284. # [05:50] <cabanier1> Fixing https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17952
  285. # [05:50] <cabanier1> Affected topics: Canvas, DOM APIs, Microdata
  286. # [05:50] <cabanier1> git-svn-id: http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps@7260 340c8d12-0b0e-0410-8428-c7bf67bfef74
  287. # [05:50] <Hixie> what behaviour would it change?
  288. # [05:51] <cabanier1> if you pass it something that can't be converted to a string, you will get a type error.
  289. # [05:51] <cabanier1> while it should ignore it instead
  290. # [05:51] <Hixie> what can't get converted to string?
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  292. # [05:52] <cabanier1> the argument you pass to strokestyle/fillstyle
  293. # [05:52] <Hixie> do you have a concrete example of some code that would change behaviour?
  294. # [05:52] <Hixie> sorry i'm having trouble understanding
  295. # [05:54] <cabanier1> let's say you pass in an object that implements its own 'tostring' method that returns a csscolor
  296. # [05:54] <cabanier1> with your change, you can pass in that object and it will be accepted
  297. # [05:55] <Hixie> like context.fillStyle = { toString: function () { return 'blue' } }; ?
  298. # [05:55] <cabanier1> yes
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  300. # [05:56] <Hixie> yeah, that would have been ignored before but is now treated properly, right?
  301. # [05:56] <cabanier1> the wording doesn't allow that
  302. # [05:56] <cabanier1> that's true
  303. # [05:56] <cabanier1> I guess the prose should change
  304. # [05:56] <cabanier1> and we should try if it is allowed
  305. # [05:57] <Hixie> what prose? it all looks right to me...
  306. # [05:57] <cabanier1> "The style can be either a string containing a CSS color, or a http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#canvasgradient or http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#canvaspattern object"
  307. # [05:58] <Hixie> oh the non-normative text
  308. # [05:58] <Hixie> yeah i guess the next sentence is wrong, huh
  309. # [05:59] <Hixie> oh, no
  310. # [05:59] <Hixie> it's still true
  311. # [05:59] <Hixie> because strings that don't parse as css colors are still ignored
  312. # [05:59] <cabanier1> I'm still trying to understand the WedIDL stuff...
  313. # [05:59] <cabanier1> yes. That's true
  314. # [05:59] <cabanier1> so, you can set an object. But when you look at the value, you would get a string back
  315. # [06:00] <Hixie> i'm assuming "you" in those two sentences refer to different people
  316. # [06:00] <cabanier1> correct
  317. # [06:00] <Hixie> if you mean that this: context.fillStyle = { toString: function () { return 'blue' } }; ...would result in the function defined in the canvas prose being handed a string, that's my understanding.
  318. # [06:00] <Hixie> (well, setter, not function)
  319. # [06:02] <cabanier1> as long as people don't expect this to work: var mycolor="…"; context.fillStyle = { toString: function () { return mycolor; } }; ...
  320. # [06:02] <cabanier1> canvaspattern and canvasgradient allow that
  321. # [06:02] <Hixie> why would that not work?
  322. # [06:02] <cabanier1> "When set to a http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#canvaspattern or http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#canvasgradient object, the assignment is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#live, meaning that changes made to the object after the assignment do affect subsequent stroking or filling of sha
  323. # [06:02] <Hixie> oh you mean, dynamically
  324. # [06:02] <Hixie> yeah
  325. # [06:03] <Hixie> it'll work, it'll just set the fillStyle to whatever mycolor's value is at setting time
  326. # [06:03] <cabanier1> and it won't be live
  327. # [06:03] <cabanier1> yes
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  329. # [06:04] <cabanier1> do you think that needs to be written down somehow?
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  331. # [06:05] <Hixie> well it's unambiguously required by the webidl spec
  332. # [06:05] <Hixie> and it seems like a really esoteric detail to put in non-normative prose
  333. # [06:06] <cabanier1> I agree
  334. # [06:07] <cabanier1> I tried "ctx.fillStyle={ toString: function () { return 'blue' } };"
  335. # [06:07] <cabanier1> and the fillstyle is black
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  337. # [06:12] <cabanier1> same on FireFox, Safari and Chrome...
  338. # [06:14] <cabanier1> If you have a moment, I think "If x0 = x1 and y0 = y1, then the linear gradient must paint nothing." and "If x0 = x1 and y0 = y1 and r0 = r1, then the radial gradient must paint nothing." in the spec should change.
  339. # [06:14] <cabanier1> The gradient should just become a line or a filled circle...
  340. # [06:15] <cabanier1> same with color stops at the same offsets
  341. # [06:18] <Hixie> file a bug :-)
  342. # [06:18] <Hixie> (or mail the list, either way it ends up on my radar)
  343. # [06:20] <Hixie> (whatwg.org/newbug and whatwg@whatwg.org respectively)
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  356. # [08:02] <cabanier1> OK
  357. # [08:02] <cabanier1> I will file a bug on both issues :-P
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  375. # [10:17] <Calthropstu> hi
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  377. # [10:19] <Calthropstu> I have a question... if I use say html4 or xhtml doc type statements will I still be able to use html5 tags?
  378. # [10:20] * Joins: [[zzz]] (~q@node-1dx0.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net)
  379. # [10:21] <deane> Calthropstu: Hi. Yes you can AFAIK, but, it wont validate.
  380. # [10:23] <deane> Calthropstu: Just use <!DOCTYPE html> Why would you want to use old doctypes?
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  382. # [10:23] <Calthropstu> Im dont
  383. # [10:23] <Calthropstu> *I dont
  384. # [10:24] <matjas> annevk (assuming you read the logs): could you perhaps chime in here? https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17352
  385. # [10:25] <Calthropstu> I'm being considered for a position and when I looked at their work I noticed their website is using a mishmash of xhtml1.0 strict, xhtml 1.1 strict, and html4 transitional
  386. # [10:25] <Calthropstu> and the biggest requirment is html 5
  387. # [10:26] <deane> Calthropstu: OIC. Sorry to jump to the wrong conclusion.
  388. # [10:26] <Ms2ger> Calthropstu, so, doctypes basically don't do anything
  389. # [10:26] <Calthropstu> they do
  390. # [10:26] <Ms2ger> Calthropstu, except for standards/quirks mode
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  392. # [10:27] <Ms2ger> And some more modes in IE
  393. # [10:27] <Ms2ger> To answer your question, yes, you can use new HTML features regardless of doctype
  394. # [10:27] <Calthropstu> well I do know if you dont have 1 at all the whole thing goes nuts
  395. # [10:28] <Ms2ger> Right
  396. # [10:28] <Ms2ger> Only in IE, though; other browsers will still support those features
  397. # [10:29] <Calthropstu> not exactly... because it also starts treating css wrong
  398. # [10:29] <deane> A good resource -> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/
  399. # [10:29] <Calthropstu> Ive had that issue as recently as may
  400. # [10:29] <Ms2ger> Calthropstu, I'd advise to just search&replace their doctypes, it's not going to break anything
  401. # [10:30] <Ms2ger> Unless they rely on quirks-mode differences
  402. # [10:30] <Calthropstu> well I would if I already had the position :-)
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  404. # [10:30] <Ms2ger> Any of the doctypes here: http://www.whatwg.org/html/#obsolete-permitted-doctype-string are fine too, fwiw
  405. # [10:31] <Calthropstu> ok
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  413. # [10:58] <deane> Calthropstu: Good luck with the job.
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  419. # [11:09] <Calthropstu> thx
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  421. # [11:10] <Calthropstu> my first resume submittal did not specify html5 so I have to resubmit it on tuesday
  422. # [11:11] <Calthropstu> I just figured "html" would cover ALL forms of html and CSS would cover all forms of CSS but they specifically demand CSS3 and HTML5
  423. # [11:11] <deane> Yeah, I guess then it's best to be specific.
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  470. # [13:22] <jesusruiz> hi, group
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  588. # [20:21] <gsnedders> Anyone got tests for meta pre-parsing?
  589. # [20:22] <Ms2ger> Not me
  590. # [20:22] <gsnedders> Looks like html5lib has none. And it's totally broken in Py3.
  591. # [20:22] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I think I saw some from you?
  592. # [20:22] <gsnedders> hsivonen: (meta pre-parsing tests)
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  617. # [21:54] <zewt> ... the synchronous nature of javascript is part of the web platform's *use* of javascript, not javascript/ecmascript per se, right?
  618. # [21:55] <zewt> (nothing in the language seems to care one way or the other, but I'm not familiar with the spec itself)
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  625. # [22:34] <gsnedders> zewt: asynchronous you mean?
  626. # [22:34] <gsnedders> Then no, it has nothing to do with JS. It's just how all the host object APIs for the DOM have developed with callbacks.
  627. # [22:35] <gsnedders> Probably in large part because most JS impls (i.e., all but Opera's) block everything, so synchronous APIs would be Rather Bad.
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  629. # [22:40] <zewt> gsnedders: synchronous in the sense of not seeing asynchronous side-effects
  630. # [22:40] <zewt> (but yes, we're talking about the same thing)
  631. # [22:40] <gsnedders> Ah, right.
  632. # [22:41] <gsnedders> That's just a side-effect of impls, really.
  633. # [22:41] <gsnedders> The JS spec doesn't address multiple threads of impl at all.
  634. # [22:43] <zewt> yeah, that's what I've always assumed intuitively, was just looking for a sanity check before it came up in a debate :)
  635. # [22:44] <zewt> is anyone else driven mad by chrome's broken text searching, heh
  636. # [22:45] <zewt> i type "foo" and instead of finding the next "foo" from where I am now, it goes to the first "f" in the document before I can type the rest
  637. # [22:48] <zewt> particularly annoying in the html spec when it makes me lose my place
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  648. # [23:18] <smaug____> is rick waldron ever here?
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  653. # [23:35] <zewt> it's pretty (something) that anyone would seriously suggest this atrocity as a solution to anything: https://github.com/kriskowal/q/blob/master/examples/all.js
  654. # [23:37] * BennyLava` is now known as BennyLava
  655. # [23:50] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.193.125.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  656. # [23:58] * Joins: dydx (~dydz@coffeebar.static.monkeybrains.net)
  657. # [23:59] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@coffeebar.static.monkeybrains.net) (Client Quit)
  658. # Session Close: Sun Sep 02 00:00:00 2012

The end :)