/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-09-02 / end

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  190. # [17:02] <ubitux> hi,
  191. # [17:03] <ubitux> how is webvtt supposed to be muxed within webm/mkv?
  192. # [17:03] <ubitux> i'm a bit concerned about the timing line mixed with the payload
  193. # [17:03] <ubitux> timing line mixed with the positionning* sorry
  194. # [17:04] <ubitux> (so what goes in the payload?)
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  196. # [17:07] <zewt> not sure what you're asking
  197. # [17:07] <zewt> (not to say I can necessarily answer, but I'll try if I can :)
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  199. # [17:09] <ubitux> well, if you take a common srt file muxed in mkv, an event such as "01:02:03.04 --> 05:06:07.08\nfoobar" will be stored in mkv such as [pts_start][duration][payload="foobar"]
  200. # [17:09] <ubitux> what happens now when the position information is stored on the timed line, and not as part of the payload
  201. # [17:10] <ubitux> if you put that information in the payload, how do you differenciate it from the classic text content
  202. # [17:12] <zewt> are you asking as a webm developer? i ask because this is a webm/mkv implementation detail--they can do it however they want, it's not something webvtt would define
  203. # [17:12] <zewt> for static (non-streaming) videos i'd be inclined to put the whole webvtt file (perhaps preprocessed in some way) at the start of the file, not to interleave it across the video--that's a strategy that doesn't make sense with files small enough to trivially load into memory
  204. # [17:13] <zewt> but that's entirely up to the file format; they can preparse and store the file however they like, of course
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  206. # [17:14] <ubitux> putting the whole sub content is stupid since the format has capabilities to store subtitles events and an extra header
  207. # [17:15] <ubitux> the thing is, if we want to mux it properly
  208. # [17:15] <zewt> stupid? niiice
  209. # [17:15] <ubitux> it doesn't look like possible
  210. # [17:15] <zewt> "can do" and "should do" are not equivalent :)
  211. # [17:15] <ubitux> except doing the crappy way of dumping the file in it
  212. # [17:16] <zewt> you can dump the whole cue text in it, or preprocess it in some way if you like
  213. # [17:17] <zewt> let's back up a bit
  214. # [17:17] <ubitux> media containers are designed to have the split form (for audio, video or subtitles)
  215. # [17:18] <ubitux> but if we want to split it
  216. # [17:18] <ubitux> how are we supposed to do it?
  217. # [17:18] <zewt> is "start time/duration/payload" the basic format mkv has to work with for subtitles, or is that just how it handles srt?
  218. # [17:18] <ubitux> since if we split the timing line and positionning
  219. # [17:18] <ubitux> the demuxer can't guess if the positionning is part of the text or a positionning info
  220. # [17:18] <zewt> (it doesn't really matter, it just affects how we discuss it)
  221. # [17:18] <ubitux> basis for subtitles
  222. # [17:19] <ubitux> it's used for ASS/SSA too
  223. # [17:19] <ubitux> the start & end are extracted from the dialogue events
  224. # [17:19] <zewt> okay, so start time and duration are straightforward; you'd have to encode the remaining information into the payload
  225. # [17:19] <ubitux> put into the mkv structures, and rest of the dialog line put into the payload
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  227. # [17:20] <zewt> for example--not suggesting this is optimal, just a simple quick way--the first byte of "payload" is the "align" setting (0: start, 1: middle, 2: end), the second byte encodes the size, etc., followed by the cue text
  228. # [17:21] <zewt> (not a very robust or extensible encoding, of course, just illustrating)
  229. # [17:21] <ubitux> having an obvious way of muxing it in most of the container would be way better
  230. # [17:22] <zewt> that is, the "payload" is all of the information in the cue block except the timestamps, not just the cue text
  231. # [17:22] <zewt> or put differently, the payload is the whole cue block, with the *exception* of the timestamps (since you encode those as separate fields)
  232. # [17:24] <zewt> my first more serious inclination if I was defining this would be to change the timestamps in the cue to "0.000 --> 0.000", and then just copy the entire cue block into the payload, so the parsing of the payload is defined by webvtt and no WebM format changes are needed to support new WebVTT features
  233. # [17:24] <zewt> (the reason for blanking the timestamp is to make it clearly not redundant with the timestamp/duration encoded in the separate fields, to ensure that nobody accidentally uses them)
  234. # [17:24] <zewt> (but leaving them in so it still parses in the same way)
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  242. # [17:52] <ubitux> zewt: about your proposition, it's a pain if a new fields is added
  243. # [17:52] <ubitux> (having 1 byte per prop and stuff)
  244. # [17:52] <ubitux> also if formats implement that differently it will be a pain for demuxers
  245. # [17:52] <zewt> ubitux: like I said, that's not an extensible (or even serious) encoding
  246. # [17:52] <ubitux> since we can't factor code for such trivial thing
  247. # [17:52] <zewt> the latter is rather more probable
  248. # [17:53] <zewt> (muxers don't have to know anything at all about new cue features)
  249. # [17:53] <ubitux> well the good thing i see is cutting just after the timing info
  250. # [17:53] <ubitux> and includes the \n in the payload
  251. # [17:54] <zewt> that's more complex
  252. # [17:54] <ubitux> but it sucks a bit
  253. # [17:54] <ubitux> why?
  254. # [17:54] * hendry_ is now known as hendry
  255. # [17:54] <ubitux> we can't have some heuristics on the payload to detect if it's align/size, etc
  256. # [17:54] <zewt> because 1: now you have a cue block without a timestamp, meaning you can't just use webvtt's parser, and 2: don't forget about cue identifiers (whether those are often useful or not, better off not dropping them unnecessarily)
  257. # [17:55] <ubitux> demuxers and decoders are different
  258. # [17:55] <ubitux> you use a decoder to parse the payload stuff
  259. # [17:55] <ubitux> basically the markup and stuff
  260. # [17:55] <ubitux> the timing stuff is extracted by the demuxer, splitting the input into chunk
  261. # [17:55] <zewt> yes, that's what i suggested :)
  262. # [17:56] <ubitux> so in case of a standalone webvtt, the demuxer will split the file into chunk, removing the timing stuff and send the payload to the decoder
  263. # [17:56] <ubitux> in case of a muxed file, it's the same, you construct a packet with the timing info from the format
  264. # [17:56] <ubitux> and send the payload to the webvtt decoder
  265. # [17:56] <zewt> yes, that's what i suggested :)
  266. # [17:57] <ubitux> alright
  267. # [17:57] <ubitux> well then that's not answering the question
  268. # [17:57] <zewt> i don't know what the question is
  269. # [17:57] <ubitux> what happens to the align & size from the timing information?
  270. # [17:57] <zewt> they're not part of the timing information, they just happen to be on the same line
  271. # [17:57] <zewt> let me give an example
  272. # [17:57] <zewt> (one sec)
  273. # [17:59] <zewt> http://pastebin.com/CWA5471e
  274. # [17:59] <ubitux> then you have the timing information two times
  275. # [17:59] <ubitux> that sucks.
  276. # [17:59] <zewt> no you don't
  277. # [18:00] <ubitux> well you have a kind of weird signature
  278. # [18:00] <zewt> there's no timestamp in the payload; just "0 --> 0", which is a dummy
  279. # [18:00] <ubitux> (0.000 --> 0.000 is a valid one no?)
  280. # [18:00] <zewt> it's there only to avoid having to change the parser (since then you'd run into other issues, like how to distinguish a cue id)
  281. # [18:00] <ubitux> and btw why this one?
  282. # [18:00] <ubitux> why a so long signature?
  283. # [18:00] <zewt> that's not the timestamp; the timestamp is 00:10.000 --> 00:15.000
  284. # [18:00] <ubitux> and couldn't that be standardized?
  285. # [18:01] <zewt> it's not a signature, it's just a dummy timestamp so the WebVTT parser can still be used
  286. # [18:02] <zewt> (eg. step 37 in the WebVTT parser)
  287. # [18:02] <ubitux> whatever is decided, it would be *really* important to standardize
  288. # [18:02] <ubitux> or at least a recommendation or something
  289. # [18:02] <ubitux> because this will likely be an issue for various containers
  290. # [18:04] <zewt> not sure it makes sense for webvtt to try to standardize how it's encoded in higher-level formats it knows nothing about, but if the webm/mkv folks want advice on this stuff, they can always come here or post on public-texttracks
  291. # [18:04] <ubitux> well the other way around would be to make obvious how to split that
  292. # [18:04] <zewt> sorry--split what?
  293. # [18:04] <ubitux> basically by separating the align/size stuff from the timing line
  294. # [18:05] <zewt> that's out of webvtt's scope--it doesn't know anything about that (and as I suggested above, I don't even know if that's a good idea)
  295. # [18:05] <ubitux> webvtt will be standardized and massively used
  296. # [18:05] <zewt> webvtt's parser depends heavily on seeing webvtt timestamps to know what it's looking at
  297. # [18:05] <ubitux> it will have the issue of being muxed
  298. # [18:05] <ubitux> so it's something you should consider
  299. # [18:06] <ubitux> zewt: i mean maybe move it do a dedicated line
  300. # [18:06] <zewt> but that would change the format and the parser significantly--the approach I suggested above (dummy timestamps) avoids that complexity
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  303. # [18:07] <zewt> (not to say it's the only way of doing it, though nothing else comes to mind and it seems very simple, without all the ways trying to eliminate it might bite you)
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  306. # [18:11] <ubitux> just found http://wiki.webmproject.org/webm-metadata/temporal-metadata/webvtt-in-webm
  307. # [18:11] <ubitux> seems like webm has another field that can be used for that information
  308. # [18:12] <zewt> i've seen that page before (it's a bit of a mess, hard to separate actual information from brainstorming)
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  311. # [18:13] <zewt> yeah that makes up its own vtt-esque format for storing webvtt, which sort of seems like a bad idea
  312. # [18:14] <ubitux> well if the format isn't good you don't have a choice
  313. # [18:15] <zewt> nothing wrong with the format; i just gave a decent way to do it :)
  314. # [18:16] <zewt> (and if you raise it on texttracks others may well have better ideas--or find issues with mine, for that matter)
  315. # [18:16] <zewt> (though if webm's already made up its mind on how to do it, or if they're not paying attention, it won't help)
  316. # [18:18] <ubitux> meh the specs is missing a lot of examples
  317. # [18:19] <zewt> can file bugs if you have specific examples you want: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/ (product: texttracks)
  318. # [18:19] <ubitux> i would like various timing examples :p
  319. # [18:20] <ubitux> i'll read deeply the text, but not me at first glance it doesn't look obvious if "12:23:45.123" is valid
  320. # [18:20] <ubitux> if "13245.12345" is also
  321. # [18:20] <ubitux> or if "12" is as well
  322. # [18:22] <zewt> see http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/#webvtt-timestamp for the timestamp format (what's "valid") and the parser (http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/#collect-a-webvtt-timestamp) for precisely what happens in a particular case
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  349. # [19:58] <ubitux> zewt: thanks :)
  350. # [19:58] <ubitux> (sorry for the delay)
  351. # [19:58] <ubitux> and yes i was refering to that part of the spec
  352. # [19:58] <ubitux> still a list of valid examples would be nice
  353. # [20:04] <ubitux> the spec really isn't obvious IMO
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  362. # [20:19] <jack_tradez> zewt: i do not use chrome for number of tasks because a number of quirks are not that developer friendly :P
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  366. # [20:28] <zewt> heh, context loss is still an open problem for gpu-accelerated 2d canvas? i don't know why, but i thought that was only a problem with webgl
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  385. # [21:33] <jack_tradez> I'm not sure. I like the vi style incremental search but it certainly doesn't work like vi ;)
  386. # [21:34] <zewt> vi starts searching where you are, chrome keeps going to the top of the page
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  422. # [23:41] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@128-69-102-87.broadband.corbina.ru) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  423. # [23:54] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-86.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  424. # Session Close: Mon Sep 03 00:00:00 2012

The end :)