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- # Session Start: Thu Sep 06 00:00:00 2012
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
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- # [01:12] <heycam> hi Hixie
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- # [01:17] <Hixie> heycam: we have a weird situation with HTMLCollection and its descendants, where they introduce operations that have the same name as in HTMLCollection, with different behaviour
- # [01:17] <Hixie> heycam: how this works in practice probably needs to be tested
- # [01:17] <heycam> hmm yes I remember there was a bug on this
- # [01:17] <Hixie> i looked but couldn't find it
- # [01:18] <heycam> I remember replying on it just recently… because you asked for some IDL way to say "override"
- # [01:18] <heycam> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17201
- # [01:18] <Hixie> aha, wasn't in webidl :-)
- # [01:20] <Hixie> ah, i see your comment
- # [01:20] <Hixie> the answer to all those questions is "i've no idea"
- # [01:20] <Hixie> :-)
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- # [01:20] <heycam> ha
- # [01:23] <heycam> ignoring what happens in practice, it would be good if calling HTMLCollection's namedItem on an HTMLPropertiesCollection object does something consistent with the definition from HTMLCollection
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- # [01:24] <Hixie> i would suspect that the answer is entirely constrained by legacy
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- # [01:24] <heycam> might be, but HTMLPropertiesCollection isn't that new. I guess maybe for the other descendents of HTMLCollection?
- # [01:24] <heycam> er, isn't that old
- # [01:25] <Hixie> HTMLPropertiesCollection should just be consistent with the others, yeah
- # [01:29] <heycam> Hixie, in the green author box for HTMLOptionsCollection it says "element = collection.item(name)". is that right?
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- # [01:29] <Hixie> yeah, there's a legacycaller in the idl
- # [01:30] <heycam> but "item"?
- # [01:30] <Hixie> oh, right. yeah, i just filed a bug on DOM Core for that.
- # [01:30] <Hixie> turns out all browsers support it.
- # [01:31] <heycam> so item takes integers and names
- # [01:31] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18784
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- # [01:48] <zewt> drawing a blank here--is there a term for a node relationship on a rooted tree, where the path from node A to B starts by going to the parent
- # [01:48] <zewt> i guess "nodes that aren't descendants of the current node" is closer
- # [01:49] <say2joe> siblings?
- # [01:49] <zewt> that's just other children of your parent
- # [01:50] <say2joe> not sure i understand what you mean.
- # [01:50] <zewt> parents; grandparents; siblings; aunts, uncles; anything that you'd go up to your parent to reach, rather than down to a child
- # [01:50] <say2joe> i can only think of ancestors or siblings as fitting your question as an answer
- # [01:50] <zewt> i think simply "not a descendant" is good enough
- # [01:51] <say2joe> ancestor
- # [01:51] <zewt> (not a descendant nor yourself)
- # [01:51] <dsheets> and not self
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- # [01:51] <say2joe> but ancestors does not cover lateral nodes (aunt, uncles, etc).
- # [01:51] <zewt> siblings aren't ancestors :)
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- # [01:52] <say2joe> i think you're right… not a descendent.
- # [01:52] <astearns> parents, grandparents but not great-grandparents? or great-uncles?
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- # [01:53] <heycam> and n-th cousins m-times removed
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- # [02:09] <zewt> laughing at my desk at someone calling { image: 'img2.jpg', density: '2x', query: '300w' } "fractal complexity"
- # [02:10] <say2joe> hmmm. last i checked… that's just adaptive images in light of RWD
- # [02:10] <say2joe> i'd be laughing too.
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- # [02:15] <zewt> i dream of gmail undo that doesn't lag behind by ten seconds when I hold ^Z for a second
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- # [02:22] <ubitux> anyone has an example of a webvtt file with one or more "cue identifier"?
- # [02:23] <ubitux> i've a hard time figuring out what it is useful for, and i'm wondering if i'm not misunderstanding the spec
- # [02:24] <zewt> hmm, "not a descendant" isn't right, since that would include nodes in different trees
- # [02:25] <Hixie> ubitux: the cue identifier is the line before the line with the -->
- # [02:25] <Hixie> ubitux: it's not very useful except for styling the cue from CSS
- # [02:26] <ubitux> Hixie: right, so it's to keep compat with the number in the old subrip and first versions of the webvtt?
- # [02:26] <ubitux> oh you can access it from the css? fear.
- # [02:26] <zewt> (and from scripts, but standalones don't care about that)
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- # [02:45] <zewt> anyone recall off-hand where the MessagePort GC issue was explained? (not sure if it was on a list or the BTS)
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- # [06:43] <Hixie> aha, another checkin from the w3c html editors! this one removing the links to the whatwg spec that say where you can find roughly the same text under a more liberal license
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- # [06:44] <deane> Just tell them you want it all back now.
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- # [06:45] <zewt> Hixie: replaced with more /TR/ links, just to avoid confusion
- # [06:46] <Hixie> zewt: ?
- # [06:46] <zewt> jooooke
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- # [06:49] <Hixie> ah
- # [06:49] <Hixie> didn't seem implausible :-)
- # [06:49] <Hixie> i was just confused cos i didn't see it in the diff :-)
- # [06:50] <zewt> the best satire--things that are completely absurd and completely plausible at the same time :)
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- # [09:39] * jgraham wonders what a "Matrix Maker" is, fears it is nothing good
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- # [09:52] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah I wondered about that when I saw it too
- # [09:53] <MikeSmith> but I can't remember where I saw it
- # [09:53] <MikeSmith> bugmail?
- # [09:53] <MikeSmith> e-mail?
- # [09:53] <jgraham> coremob
- # [09:53] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
- # [09:54] <MikeSmith> darobin: so what is Matrix Maker?
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- # [09:57] <Ms2ger> Is it darobin's new job description?
- # [09:58] <darobin> Matrix Maker? where?
- # [09:58] <darobin> oh, in the TF
- # [09:59] <darobin> it's a tool that allows you to list specs vertically, and device types or UAs horizontally, and shows you a pretty report of the passing stuff
- # [10:00] <MikeSmith> darobin: ah ok
- # [10:00] <darobin> ah, I knew it would be fun to select Julian for my first bug
- # [10:00] <jgraham> I don't like it when people start doing that/
- # [10:01] <jgraham> It gives people all the wrong incentives for sontributing tests
- # [10:01] <MikeSmith> darobin: I thought you said "hug" there for a second
- # [10:01] <jgraham> *contributing
- # [10:01] <darobin> rofl
- # [10:01] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: pretty sure his new title is "The Freshmaker"
- # [10:01] <jgraham> Maybe all he needs is a hug
- # [10:02] <MikeSmith> jgraham: what you mean about giving the wrong incentives?
- # [10:02] <darobin> mix me up with some coke!
- # [10:03] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I mean that people tend to start making tests in order to look good rather than in order to find bugs
- # [10:04] <MikeSmith> ah
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- # [10:04] <MikeSmith> yeah
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- # [10:04] <darobin> you only good if your tests catch problems with the other implementations
- # [10:04] <jgraham> Or with your own implementation :)
- # [10:05] <MikeSmith> I thought the goal was to construct your test suites such that your browser passes all the tests but other browsers tank on it
- # [10:05] <darobin> so long as everyone does that, we all win
- # [10:05] <MikeSmith> then you do a blog posting with a nice graphic showing that
- # [10:06] <jgraham> But there is a history of people cherry-picking tests to release based on "we get 100% and other people get 0% due to a single bug"
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- # [10:06] <jgraham> That is, you intentionally find something that breaks in other browsers and make each test depend on it even if it isn't really relevant
- # [10:06] <darobin> speaking of tests and stuff, any suggestions on what would be most useful to cover at Test The Web Forward Paris are welcome
- # [10:07] <jgraham> Ms2ger, annevk Someone (TM) suggested writing DOM4 tests at TTWF. Does that sound sensible?
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- # [10:08] <annevk> http://testsuite.org/
- # [10:08] <jgraham> (actually I have no idea who the someone was)
- # [10:08] <darobin> I thought it was you jgraham :)
- # [10:08] <jgraham> darobin: I thought I just agreed that it might be a good idea
- # [10:08] <darobin> heh
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- # [10:09] <darobin> "It wasn't me"
- # [10:10] <jgraham> annevk: Well yeah, but do you have any feeling for whether it is well tested or not?
- # [10:10] <annevk> jgraham: parts are well tested by tests from Ms2ger and AryehGregor
- # [10:10] <annevk> jgraham: those tests are somewhere in W3C dcvs
- # [10:10] <annevk> dvcs?
- # [10:10] <jgraham> OK, I guess I will need to look in more detail
- # [10:11] <jgraham> dcvs -> like cvs but with more "d"
- # [10:11] <jgraham> darobin: DOM APIs for form elements might also be good
- # [10:12] <jgraham> HTMLOptionCollection and so on
- # [10:12] <darobin> ooh yeah, that's a good one
- # [10:12] <darobin> I might actually take that one for my group
- # [10:12] * darobin bbiab
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- # [10:14] <annevk> Hixie: with seamless there's guaranteed sync access between the two trees right?
- # [10:15] <annevk> Hixie: why does the object need to be duplicated?
- # [10:15] <annevk> Hixie: why can't you just expand the dispatch tree
- # [10:15] <annevk> Hixie: as you've done for Window already
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- # [10:21] <smaug____> annevk: mouseevent coordinates wouldn't make sense
- # [10:22] <smaug____> event retargeting can't be used with seamless, but there needs to be separate events per document
- # [10:22] <annevk> unless they are against the outer document when dispatched on a seamless frame
- # [10:23] <smaug____> (event target chain can be created before dispatching either one)
- # [10:23] <annevk> but I guess now browsers have seamless without this event model it's too late for that
- # [10:23] <smaug____> I don't think seamless is in any way stable thing yet
- # [10:23] <Ms2ger> jgraham, events, maybe
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- # [10:24] <annevk> jgraham: actually not, dvcs.w3.org
- # [10:24] <annevk> jgraham: oh, maybe you were joking :)
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- # [10:25] <Ms2ger> I was thinking about boxes with links to the tests in the spec, btw
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- # [10:31] <jgraham> Little boxes in the margin, little boxes filled with links-to-tests?
- # [10:31] <annevk> I need to download some new Weeds episodes
- # [10:31] <jgraham> Ms2ger: But seriously, please continue. I want something like that too
- # [10:31] <Ms2ger> Yeah, something like that
- # [10:31] <annevk> Ms2ger: we should Hixie to abstract his system
- # [10:32] <annevk> Ms2ger: get*; so we can use it for DOM / Encoding / Fullscreen / ...
- # [10:32] <Ms2ger> I wrote a script to pull out the rel=help links from tests, and put the data into a json file
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- # [10:32] <jgraham> The main problem with links to tests is working out which test should be linked where
- # [10:32] <Ms2ger> Now I just need to coerce someone into doing the frontend :)
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- # [10:34] <jgraham> I don't like rel=help
- # [10:35] <jgraham> For a start it doesn't work
- # [10:35] <jgraham> Because a test is not a file
- # [10:35] <jgraham> e.g. the html5lib tests run in 3 different modes depending on the query string
- # [10:36] <Ms2ger> Let's leave the html5lib tests out of this ;)
- # [10:36] <jgraham> Let's not
- # [10:36] <jgraham> Making tests that depend on the query string isn't exactly uncommon
- # [10:38] <jgraham> Opera seem to have ~4500 tests that require a query string (and ~20 that require a fragment id)
- # [10:39] <Ms2ger> OH: "Do you have a use case that does not involve the vanity of the library's authors?"
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- # [10:40] <Ms2ger> jgraham, do those usually test different features when used with different query strings?
- # [10:42] * Ms2ger goes off for a bit
- # [10:42] <jgraham> No idea
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- # [10:43] <jgraham> In any case my point is that linking tests to files is the wrong data model
- # [10:43] <jgraham> Tests are URIs
- # [10:44] <jgraham> You could of course make each test that can be loaded with > 1 URI has to list that in the test file, or something
- # [10:44] <smaug____> I need chromium nightly. where can I find the .zip or .tar.gz file for linux
- # [10:44] <smaug____> (always difficult to find the nightly chromium build for linux)
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- # [10:49] <smaug____> hmm, now I found it, but it doesn't run on this machine
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- # [10:59] <annevk> Firefox does not allow dynamically setting the base URL?
- # [10:59] <annevk> That makes testing annoying
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- # [11:06] <annevk> fwiw
- # [11:06] <annevk> there is no interop for <base href=about:blank><script src=local.js></script>
- # [11:07] <annevk> most browsers load local.js relative to the current file, Gecko does not
- # [11:08] <annevk> with a twist of course, Firefox view source resolves it relative too
- # [11:08] <annevk> that's some confusing mismatch
- # [11:13] <darobin> does Firefox's view source respect <base> in general?
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- # [11:14] <annevk> not for http://example.org/ either
- # [11:14] <annevk> so yeah, might be a more generic bug
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- # [11:18] <smaug____> annevk: file a bug, please. CC hsivonen
- # [11:18] <smaug____> (although this might be a UI problem)
- # [11:18] <annevk> I suspect this to be filed already
- # [11:21] <smaug____> annevk: ah, perhaps https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=617789
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- # [11:30] <annevk> looks like it
- # [11:30] <annevk> dynamic base is prolly filed too
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- # [11:42] <annevk> heh, hsivonen is on air: http://futuradio.fi
- # [11:47] <jgraham> The volume control on the radio image doesn't actually control the volume :(
- # [11:50] <darobin> that's how the future of radio is!
- # [11:51] <Ms2ger> Clearly we need a volume content attribute
- # [11:53] <jgraham> darobin: Excessively loud?
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- # [11:54] <Ms2ger> jgraham, no, that's the present
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- # [11:54] <darobin> jgraham: yeah, you know, Finnish radio is special
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- # [11:54] <darobin> I think they still have the one and only channel broadcasting in Latin
- # [11:55] <darobin> they are also known for having broadcasted computer programs over FM radio (you could tape it, and then just load the tape)
- # [11:55] <darobin> plus, they have hsivonen talking about browsers and mobile networks
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- # [11:56] <darobin> he's making me all sad about the Android update situation
- # [12:01] <smaug____> darobin: it is not a channel, but just one program in Latin
- # [12:01] <smaug____> basically news in Latin
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- # [12:02] <darobin> smaug____: my version of reality sounds better
- # [12:02] <smaug____> sure
- # [12:02] <smaug____> :)
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- # [12:02] <darobin> next you're going to tell me it's just one program with hsivonen and not a whole 24/7 broadcast of his thoughts
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- # [12:03] <smaug____> no no, hsivonen has his own channel and talking 24/7/365
- # [12:04] <jgraham> Oh, I assumed he had some sort of helmet to read his thoughts in realtime
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- # [12:59] <deane> I wish I had heard all of that interview with hsivonen.
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- # [13:36] <annevk> test
- # [13:37] <Ms2ger> failed
- # [13:37] <annevk> there's red all over the floor
- # [13:37] <annevk> aaaah
- # [13:37] <annevk> you're being eaten by a grue
- # [13:37] * Ms2ger is now known as Ms2ger|waseatenb
- # [13:38] <Ms2ger|waseatenb> Dammit
- # [13:38] <annevk> haha
- # [13:38] * Ms2ger|waseatenb is now known as Ms2ger
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- # [13:40] <jgraham> I wish hsivonen had done the whole interview in LAtin
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- # [14:00] <annevk> Chrome has something weird
- # [14:00] <annevk> about:blank as base with "unknown :test" as link creates "about:unknown%20:test"
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- # [14:01] <annevk> no other browser tries to resolve URLs against about:blank
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- # [14:03] <jgraham> Yeah, resolving against about:blank seems weird
- # [14:07] <annevk> kinda wish URLs were simpler
- # [14:07] <annevk> but then somebody might have defined them already I guess
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- # [14:13] <jgraham> Ms2ger: (I just came up with another test that can run with a fragment ID on the URL)
- # [14:13] <jgraham> (or not, but to test slightly different things)
- # [14:13] <annevk> heh, in Gecko a data URL is only valid if it matches the whole data URL production
- # [14:13] <jgraham> (same part of the spec still)
- # [14:13] <jgraham> (except there is no spec yet)
- # [14:14] <Ms2ger> annevk, that sounds... sane?
- # [14:15] <Ms2ger> Though Julian did something with base64 and ;
- # [14:15] <annevk> Ms2ger: well it means data URL parsing becomes part of URL parsing
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- # [14:15] <annevk> Ms2ger: if you want every URL library to behave the same way anyway
- # [14:15] <Ms2ger> Pff ;)
- # [14:16] <annevk> I mean if you stop caring about the details all of this is very simple
- # [14:16] <annevk> but if you do care about whether "DATA:test" becomes normalized and of which .protocol returns "data:" rather than the empty string (that's for invalid) you suddenly need to define this
- # [14:17] <annevk> well
- # [14:17] <annevk> invalid might also return ":"
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- # [14:17] <darobin> piffle
- # [14:17] <annevk> browsers are in dispute of course
- # [14:17] <darobin> only quiche eaters process URLs with an API
- # [14:17] <Ms2ger> I only care about browsers :)
- # [14:18] <annevk> darobin: just had some quiche
- # [14:18] <darobin> real hackers do it with a twenty page long regex
- # [14:18] <darobin> my point exactly
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- # [14:18] <annevk> and I'm using a 200 line incomplete tokenizer
- # [14:18] <darobin> bah, kids these days
- # [14:20] <annevk> so I take it URLs becomes a "this is implementation-dependent" in "HTML5"?
- # [14:22] <Ms2ger> No
- # [14:22] <Ms2ger> They become IRAs
- # [14:22] <Ms2ger> ARIs?
- # [14:22] <Ms2ger> ARAs?
- # [14:22] <darobin> URX I think
- # [14:23] <annevk> so ™ in the authority part becomes normalized to tm...
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- # [14:23] <annevk> if somebody could explain authority parsing to me that would be awesome
- # [14:24] <darobin> heh, I wonder how well http://search.cpan.org/~gaas/URI-1.60/URI.pm#PARSING_URIs_WITH_REGEXP actually fares in the real world
- # [14:24] <annevk> unfortunately that also seems to differ wildly
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- # [14:25] <annevk> e.g. "http:test test" yields invalid in Gecko/Safari, "http://test%20test/" in Chrome
- # [14:26] <annevk> maybe invalid is okay
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- # [14:26] <darobin> you'd sort of hope so
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- # [14:29] <annevk> well
- # [14:30] <annevk> http:annevankesteren.nl "works"
- # [14:30] <annevk> in most browsers
- # [14:30] <annevk> giving http://annevankesteren.nl/
- # [14:30] <annevk> unless
- # [14:30] <annevk> there's a base URL
- # [14:30] <annevk> in which case it's a relative path and you get something like http://example.org/annevankesteren.nl (scheme has to match)
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- # [14:31] <annevk> but that part I got covered already
- # [14:31] <annevk> I'm wondering more about what characters to allow and to reject in host
- # [14:31] <annevk> well, authority
- # [14:40] <annevk> man
- # [14:41] <annevk> http:test -> http://test/ in Safari, but http:maraña.org is invalid, only works with //
- # [14:41] <annevk> Chrome's URL code is a little better there
- # [14:41] <annevk> Gecko too, but doesn't use punycode
- # [14:41] <annevk> because, why would anything here match each other...
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- # [14:44] <zcorpan> annevk++ for speccing this
- # [14:45] <Ms2ger> annevk++ just because
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- # [14:51] <jgraham> annevk++ to increase hit points agianst attacks from RFC-wonks
- # [14:51] <karlcow> annevk-- for destroying Poney and Rainbow tales ;)
- # [14:53] <darobin> annevk: re the HTML5 thing with MikeSmith, are you only doing it in .nl or are you travelling a bit too?
- # [14:53] <darobin> specifically, to the Paris one
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- # [15:09] <Ms2ger> http://i.imgur.com/jxBZG.jpg
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- # [15:22] <zcorpan> aaah, the browser spec. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14689
- # [15:23] <zcorpan> gotta monkey patch xslt in the browser spec
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- # [15:29] <Ms2ger> There is no scope, dammit
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- # [15:32] <zcorpan> i just find it amusing that the *xml core wg* who refused to have me specify this in the *xml-stylesheet PI spec* think that it is most appropriate to spec it in HTML
- # [15:32] <Ms2ger> "We don't have to deal with it"
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- # [15:37] <zcorpan> (UI requirements for the xml-stylesheet PI is still absent, except i think CSSOM has rules for CSS)
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- # [15:49] <annevk> darobin: I do not know about a Paris one, so presumably just here
- # [15:49] <darobin> annevk: ah, shame, it could have involved beer
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- # [15:50] <annevk> darobin: I also only plan to put travel money into vacation for now
- # [15:50] <darobin> or wine, since they seem to be paying for wine and pizza
- # [15:50] <annevk> does kinda sound like vacation :p
- # [15:50] <darobin> you're going to take even more vacations??? ;-)
- # [15:51] <Ms2ger> Oh dear
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- # [15:59] <annevk> haha, no, unfortunately not
- # [15:59] <annevk> apart from some weekends
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- # [16:02] <annevk> so in Gecko http://\0example.org/ yields http://example.org/
- # [16:02] <annevk> is that safe?
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- # [16:04] <annevk> Safari treats the zero byte as eof
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- # [16:04] <annevk> same for Opera
- # [16:04] <annevk> Chrome converts to %00
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- # [16:09] <zcorpan> %00 or treating the whole url as invalid seem like the sane options
- # [16:10] <annevk> during authority -> invalid otherwise %00 is what I'm going with I guess
- # [16:10] <annevk> in the end
- # [16:11] <zcorpan> sounds good
- # [16:12] <annevk> it seems in the host name you need to unescape %.. too
- # [16:12] <annevk> in the path only Chrome does it
- # [16:12] <annevk> which I think might result in some bugs
- # [16:13] <annevk> some sites expect paths to be pretty much literals
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- # [16:24] <annevk> hsivonen: why does Gecko give the unbalanced tree message if all I write is <br>?
- # [16:24] <darobin> there's behaviour that I can't find to be specified anywhere, I'd appreciate a pointer if any
- # [16:24] <annevk> ask, don't ask to ask
- # [16:25] <darobin> I wasn't asking to ask, I was introducing my question :)
- # [16:25] <darobin> if you serve something as XML containing <foo><p>foo</p></foo>, it consistently gets rendered as a source tree
- # [16:25] <darobin> if however you add the namespace to an inner element no matter how deep, as in <foo><p xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml'>foo</p></foo>
- # [16:25] <darobin> it gets upgraded to an HTML document
- # [16:26] <darobin> (even if the namespace happens after megabytes of useless XML
- # [16:26] <darobin> everyone seems to do the same thing (at least given a cursory look) but I can't find it specified
- # [16:26] <annevk> if http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/history.html#read-xml does not have it, prolly a bug
- # [16:27] <darobin> yeah, that's what I was looking at
- # [16:27] <annevk> or maybe that's more about rendering XML
- # [16:27] <annevk> dunno if we have a section for that
- # [16:28] <darobin> I investigated because of https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15180
- # [16:29] <darobin> I don't believe there's anything about rendering XML
- # [16:29] <darobin> I'll figure something out, cheers
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- # [16:30] <jgraham> Is there a shorter term for "documents without a browsing context"?
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- # [16:32] <annevk> cookie-averse Document object, though that also means something else
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- # [16:38] <annevk> man, IDNA is some vague shit
- # [16:38] <jgraham> I was hoping for "detached documents" or something.
- # [16:40] <zewt> "contextless document" seems accurate, but ... it's sort of a tonguetwister, heh
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- # [16:41] <darobin> it's really funny, <foo><zorglub xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml'>foo</zorglub></foo> and even <foo><x:zorglub xmlns:x='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml'>foo</x:zorglub></foo> work, but the namespace declaration on its own is not enough
- # [16:42] <darobin> jgraham: how about aloof documents
- # [16:43] <annevk> darobin: if you want to define this I would just say that the document needs to be rendered per CSS rules if there's at least one element in the HTML namespace
- # [16:43] <annevk> darobin: and maybe MathML namespace
- # [16:43] <darobin> yeah, that's what I was thinking of
- # [16:43] <darobin> lemme do a few more tests
- # [16:45] <darobin> works for MathML and SVG
- # [16:46] <annevk> I guess SVG gives you a CSS context as well
- # [16:47] <annevk> be careful not to make Rendering and XML Rendering sound exclusive
- # [16:52] <darobin> I'll put it on GitHub, nothing's exclusive there!
- # [16:55] <annevk> this channel did need more non sequitur
- # [16:55] <annevk> or does
- # [16:55] <annevk> hmm
- # [16:58] <smaug____> jgraham: just curious, and I think the answer is that you aren't allowed to say anything... how does Opera handle cycles in C++ objects
- # [16:58] <smaug____> well, C++ -> JS ->C++ cycles
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- # [17:07] <jgraham> smaug____: The answer is honestly that I don't know
- # [17:07] <jgraham> I just asked if that kind of a cycle was a problem for us ans was told by the relevant developers that it wasn't
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- # [17:08] <annevk> zero bytes on the other hand :p
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- # [17:09] <jgraham> Yeah, excuse me while I list the zero websites that affects :p
- # [17:09] <annevk> well I have this file here on my local hard drive...
- # [17:09] <jgraham> Well, sometimes it is annoying
- # [17:09] <jgraham> I wrote a fuzzer once where it truncated the debug output
- # [17:10] <jgraham> But it's not like it makes sense to prioritise fixing it
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- # [17:45] <Hixie> darobin: can you elaborate on your reasoning for https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18067 ? I was thinking about it myself but wasn't convinced it wouldn't be a security problem. Can you elaborate on why you think it's safe?
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- # [17:46] <darobin> Hixie: I looked at the gopher protocol and the sort of content that it supports, and I could find no reason to believe that it would be more unsafe than any of the others
- # [17:47] <darobin> if there are rules for assessing this more systematically, I'd be happy to hear
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- # [17:47] <Hixie> wouldn't it have the same risks as http:?
- # [17:47] * jgraham checks his watch
- # [17:47] <jgraham> No, doesn't seem to be 1992
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- # [17:48] <darobin> you mean highjacking all those gopher clients out there?
- # [17:48] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah, i'm not saying it would be useful in any way in the first place, but...
- # [17:48] <zcorpan> how is one supposed to discover which *.specs.whatwg.org exist?
- # [17:48] <Hixie> zcorpan: one is currently not, sadly
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- # [17:49] <Hixie> darobin: well not just that, but in theory, e.g. in-place mitm in an iframe, or similar
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- # [17:49] <jgraham> Hixie: "i'm not saying it would be useful in any way" no usecases -> not allowed, seems more reasonable
- # [17:49] <Hixie> darobin: to the extent that anyone supports it, it seems bad to support it inline
- # [17:50] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah, that's kinda my thinking
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- # [17:51] <darobin> frankly I couldn't think of any reasonably mitm that would do anything useful — at the same time I can see this as useful for whoever wants to maintain historical gopher connectivity to implement it that way
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- # [17:52] <Hixie> to the extent that it can be useful, it seems like it could be used in an attack.
- # [17:53] <Hixie> to the extent that it's not useful, it seems pointless to support.
- # [17:53] <darobin> the UC that I have in mind is exposing historical document retrieval systems
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- # [17:55] <darobin> that said I can't say I am overwhelmed with desire for gopher, so I won't stand in the way of reversal
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- # [17:55] <Hixie> i think the whatwg spec will be erring on teh side of abundant caution on this one, fwiw
- # [17:56] * darobin has a fleeting image of an "I'll die for gopher" t-shirt
- # [17:57] <annevk> gopher is one of the schemes at least WebKit-based browsers use to trigger their relative URL handling
- # [17:57] <jgraham> If the usecase is "historical curiosity" it doesn't seem like integration with the web is important so you could require urls to be rewritten as web+gopher (and do so automatically where you have access to the URL)
- # [17:57] <Hixie> yeah
- # [17:57] <annevk> gopher implies a hierarchical URL, so to say
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- # [17:58] <darobin> can one of the logbots here give a URL pointer to the logs?
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- # [17:58] <darobin> that's a good point jgraham
- # [17:59] <Ms2ger> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg
- # [17:59] <hober> darobin: see the topic
- # [17:59] <Ms2ger> Also, now I need to review D3E again
- # [17:59] <darobin> no, that much I know, I meant a pointer to the current entry
- # [17:59] <darobin> (but I'll live without)
- # [17:59] <jgraham> At least krijn isn't really a logbot
- # [18:00] <jgraham> It's more like a radiator that also saves IRC conversations
- # [18:00] <darobin> unless you count mIRC as a logbot :)
- # [18:02] <jgraham> In a conversation about gopher mIRC is almost modern
- # [18:03] <Hixie> bbiab
- # [18:03] <Ms2ger> Zing
- # [18:04] <karlcow> Go for ever
- # [18:04] <jgraham> You want Hixie killed?
- # [18:04] <Ms2ger> No, just gone
- # [18:04] <jgraham> Oh, not "gone"
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- # [18:22] <darobin> Hixie: re https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/c953c8da7b2363af2ec119f14c9383f0cee1b13b it confused someone, I could see how "this" may be slightly unclear, I figured that a two word non-normative change that had confused someone wouldn't hurt
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- # [18:27] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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- # [18:42] <say2joe> good morning, Dimitri (and fellow west coaster)
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- # [18:50] <Ms2ger> Hah: https://github.com/apache/httpd/commit/a381ff35fa4d50a5f7b9f64300dfd98859dee8d0
- # [18:50] * darobin thinks you'd have to be mad to steal a cookie from a gopher
- # [18:50] <Hixie> darobin: you'll notice i made the change also :-)
- # [18:50] <darobin> Hixie: yes, I was just reacting to your comment :)
- # [18:51] <Hixie> darobin: there are definitely cases (not this particular one) where people are like "this is confusing" and despite my best efforts at working out why, i end up concluding it's just because they were tired or don't know how to read
- # [18:51] <darobin> yeah, I clearly saw a few of those in the bugs
- # [18:51] <say2joe> lol
- # [18:52] <darobin> in this case, I could see how it may be confusing (if I tilted my head right)
- # [18:52] <darobin> I sometimes wish the comment thing had a name field
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- # [18:54] <say2joe> In Chrome Developer Tools, I'm using the Resources panel on the LATimes.com web site. I've got about 60 cookies from that site (and others) being utilized on LATimes.com — if I select all of them and try to delete them, nothing happens. However, I can remove 1-2 at a time it seems… is anyone here familiar with this being a bug or simply the way it works for some reason?
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- # [19:00] <Hixie> darobin: if they're logged in on the spec, it includes their e-mail address on the line with the IP address
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- # [19:01] <karlcow> Ms2ger this is all insane the apache thing
- # [19:01] <darobin> Hixie: yeah I saw, but the weirder ones aren't the logged in ones ;)
- # [19:01] <Hixie> yeah
- # [19:02] <Ms2ger> karlcow, how about we call it "the IE thing" ;)
- # [19:02] <karlcow> not going into that discussion again :)
- # [19:02] <Ms2ger> Me neither
- # [19:02] <Hixie> darobin: it's a natural trade-off between reducing the barrier to getting feedback, and getting more info
- # [19:02] <Hixie> darobin: the bugs filed on the w3c copy require that they get a login, so you get a name there (but less feedback overall)
- # [19:03] <darobin> I know, I wasn't suggesting requiring logins for all, au contraire
- # [19:03] <darobin> I was just wondering if adding a name field there might make sense — just mulling it over
- # [19:04] <Ms2ger> darobin, hey, shouldn't you be removing references to the WHATWG from HTML5 instead of hanging around here? :)
- # [19:06] <darobin> Ms2ger: nah, that was fun while outside W3C
- # [19:07] <darobin> now that I'm on the inside, I seem to mostly focus on pissing off XML Core WG and I18N
- # [19:07] <Ms2ger> Not a11y?
- # [19:07] <darobin> haven't gotten around to that yet :-)
- # [19:08] * Ms2ger prepares some popcorn
- # [19:08] <othermaciej> I've never seen them in a non-pissed-off state so I'm not sure how you would know the difference
- # [19:09] <Ms2ger> Zing
- # [19:11] <Hixie> ouch
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- # [19:14] <Ms2ger> Hixie, you got your HTMLCollection test wrong, btw
- # [19:14] <Hixie> no surprise there
- # [19:14] <Hixie> what specifically did i get wrong?
- # [19:14] <Ms2ger> ToUint32('test') == 0
- # [19:14] <Ms2ger> So it didn't prove anything
- # [19:15] <Ms2ger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18789
- # [19:15] <Hixie> d'oh
- # [19:16] <Hixie> i want strict typing damnit
- # [19:16] <Hixie> anyway
- # [19:16] <Hixie> bbl again
- # [19:17] <darobin> I find that a spellchecker can help lots with strict typing
- # [19:17] * darobin gets his coat
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- # [19:22] <annevk> miketaylr: fullscreen is a single word
- # [19:22] <annevk> miketaylr: I blame Mozilla for realizing that too late
- # [19:23] <miketaylr> annevk: yeah my intuition says that too
- # [19:23] <annevk> miketaylr: in a couple of years from now people will be thankful not to have to write full-dash-screen
- # [19:23] <miketaylr> too lazy to look it up
- # [19:23] <annevk> well it used to be full screen
- # [19:23] <annevk> then full-screen, and nowish fullscreen
- # [19:23] <annevk> the English language sucks that way, so you better just remove that hyphen right away
- # [19:25] <miketaylr> can't wait to find all the broken sites where people create an analogous requestFullScreen from the prefixed guys
- # [19:25] <miketaylr> (html5test is the first i know of)
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- # [19:25] <paul_irish> miketaylr: got spec link handy?
- # [19:25] <paul_irish> or list discussion?
- # [19:26] <miketaylr> paul_irish: here's a PR w/ a spec link inside https://github.com/NielsLeenheer/html5test/pull/196
- # [19:27] <paul_irish> thx
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- # [19:29] <annevk> paul_irish: spec is hosted here for now: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/fullscreen/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
- # [19:30] <annevk> will prolly be fullscreen.spec.whatwg.org at some point
- # [19:30] <annevk> have to sort all that out still
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- # [19:32] <paul_irish> oh man that's a hot URL. looking forward to it
- # [19:33] <paul_irish> annevk: im going to update the MDN and html5rocks tutorials with their casing and point this out more clearly.
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- # [19:35] <annevk> thanks paul_irish!
- # [19:36] <miketaylr> paul_irish++
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- # [20:36] <annevk> very slowly approaching more followers than commits on @WHATWG
- # [20:36] <Hixie> oh dear
- # [20:36] <Hixie> i'd better commit more
- # [20:36] <annevk> per character commits!
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- # [20:37] <Hixie> actually since i don't have to deal with the htmlwg process any more i've been grouping typo commits again
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- # [20:39] <Hixie> sicking: ping
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- # [21:44] <Hixie> hober: looks like some bugs in the html5 spec component are getting assigned to me?
- # [21:45] <Hixie> not sure why
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- # [22:32] <sicking> Hixie: pong
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- # [23:14] <hober> Hixie: link(s)?
- # [23:15] <hober> Hixie: nvm, i see the mail on p-h-b
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- # [23:44] <zcorpan> Hixie: maybe the live dom viewer bug thing should have its own bugzilla component? also, maybe prompt() for a description?
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- # [23:47] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Why is the "DOM view" link a data:text/plain, when its contents are clearly HTML?
- # [23:48] <TabAtkins> Also: it would be nice to have the data url include the styles that it's normally rendered with.
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- # [23:49] <zcorpan> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. http://www.w3.org/community/texttracks/wiki/608_to_WebVTT
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- # Session Close: Fri Sep 07 00:00:01 2012
The end :)