/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-09-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Sep 08 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <cabanier1> http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/
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  41. # [01:11] <Hixie> i wonder if there are other platforms where the people designing the APIs have to basically treat authors as the enemy... :-/
  42. # [01:12] * Hixie is trying to work out how to do the text track selection in a way that does what authors want, what users want, what vendors want, and yet is not going to just fall apart when authors start randomly removing track elements or poking at the DOM
  43. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> I, on the other hand, am figuring out the easiest way to automate this railroad-diagram creation. Existing libraries don't do what I want.
  44. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> At least, not in the exact visual style I want.
  45. # [01:13] <Hixie> railroad-diagram? that sounsd like way more fun
  46. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Well, it's SVG. And nothing to do with trains. So, depends on your proclivities.
  47. # [01:14] <Hixie> oh. no trains. sad now.
  48. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> gonna add an informative section to the Syntax module illustrating the syntax of each token with railroad diagrams.
  49. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Easier to read than regex.
  50. # [01:14] <Hixie> oh, those kinds of diagrams
  51. # [01:15] <Hixie> what i consider "pascal-style syntax diagrams", because i first saw them in pascal reference books
  52. # [01:15] <Hixie> i love those, so neat
  53. # [01:15] <Hixie> so hard to represent in text :-P
  54. # [01:15] <zewt> is that the diagrams that sqlite's docs changed to a few years ago, which overnight made the docs totally unreadable :|
  55. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> I consider them "JSON-style syntax diagrams", for the same reason.
  56. # [01:15] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  57. # [01:16] <Hixie> yeah, the json spec uses them too
  58. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> zewt: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-syntax/railroad-diagrams.svg
  59. # [01:16] <Hixie> that's awesome
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  61. # [01:16] <Hixie> TabAtkins++
  62. # [01:16] <zewt> TabAtkins: might make sense for that (no idea), but for SQL it's terrible: http://www.sqlite.org/lang_insert.html
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  64. # [01:17] <Hixie> that looks awesome too, why is it terrible?
  65. # [01:17] <Hixie> surely better than the alternative bnf, let alone regex
  66. # [01:17] <zewt> i find it much harder to read than what it used to be (which I think was closer to postgres's, eg. http://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/static/sql-insert.html)
  67. # [01:17] <zewt> also it's unsearchable
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  71. # [01:18] <Hixie> the postgre alternative syntax style there is not as precise by a long shot
  72. # [01:18] <Hixie> i agree that the searchability is zero
  73. # [01:18] <Hixie> that's what i meant (in part) by "hard to represent in text"
  74. # [01:18] <zewt> (perhaps svg-based ones could fix that particular problem--looks like I can search the text in that svg, but it won't actually highlight in FF or Chrome)
  75. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> zewt: I'm missing the diagram. Is it somewhere on that page I don't see?
  76. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> Oh, I clicked on postgres, duh.
  77. # [01:19] * ojan is now known as ojan_away
  78. # [01:19] <Hixie> TabAtkins: what does your source look like?
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  80. # [01:20] <TabAtkins> Check it? I'm just writing straight SVG right now.
  81. # [01:20] <zewt> TabAtkins: i don't use SVG much--is it possible to make it so search-highlighting works, or is that just a multi-browser bug?
  82. # [01:20] <TabAtkins> Now that I've done two of them, I'm looking into generating them from a simpler source.
  83. # [01:20] <Hixie> TabAtkins: oh, you're doing it by hand?
  84. # [01:20] <zewt> (dunno if that's just coloring being overridden or something)
  85. # [01:20] <Hixie> TabAtkins: aaah
  86. # [01:20] <TabAtkins> zewt: Dunno!
  87. # [01:20] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i'm interested in subscribing to your newsletter, so that i may receive the issue that describes that syntax once you find a good one :-)
  88. # [01:20] <zewt> you're very excited about dunno!
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  90. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> Hixie: It's simple. All I want to do is omit some of the busywork around determining lengths of things. Anyway, when I'm done I'll share.
  91. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> Won't finish today, but it might be my weekend project.
  92. # [01:21] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  93. # [01:21] <Hixie> cool
  94. # [01:22] <Hixie> maybe i can replace the html syntax section with some of these if your solution scales well, and give zewt a fit
  95. # [01:23] <annevk> Hixie: next Monday, I'm gonna need some *.spec.whatwg.org URLs
  96. # [01:23] <Hixie> annevk: good to know
  97. # [01:23] <Hixie> annevk: this is the ones that we have to dance into your account?
  98. # [01:23] <zewt> also, it's weird that <svg hidden> doesn't work
  99. # [01:23] <annevk> either that or make me some weird account
  100. # [01:23] <Hixie> annevk: or shall we just give you an account on my user
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  102. # [01:24] <Hixie> that's probably easier
  103. # [01:24] <annevk> yeah, it's only going to be a simple script that pulls from github anyway
  104. # [01:24] <Hixie> if we don't have to involve dreamhost it's trivial, just say the word
  105. # [01:24] <Hixie> k
  106. # [01:24] <Hixie> guess at some point i should set up the specs/ page to point to these specs, too
  107. # [01:24] <annevk> xhr, encoding, fullscreen, cors maybe
  108. # [01:25] <annevk> and url at some point, but I've some research and writing to do for that one
  109. # [01:25] <Hixie> a mass exodus, no less
  110. # [01:25] <Hixie> i take it the w3c just shot itself in the foot? or did you time out waiting for them to
  111. # [01:25] <annevk> well, the W3C Invited Expert agreement I don't like
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  113. # [01:25] <annevk> it basically prohibits forking these days
  114. # [01:25] <Hixie> yeah
  115. # [01:26] <annevk> and since I'm gonna pay for all development myself, that seems unfair
  116. # [01:26] <Hixie> (only the w3c can fork, don't you know)
  117. # [01:26] <annevk> I rather give it away as long as I still have money
  118. # [01:28] <Hixie> i wonder how many of your specs microsoft will end up forking into webapps :-)
  119. # [01:29] <annevk> if they turn them into respec like with the work of Ms2ger it's all for the worse :/
  120. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Check the source of http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-syntax/railroad-diagrams.svg now. Does the comment at the top look good to you?
  121. # [01:30] <Hixie> hm, not sure xml would be my first choice, but i guess it works
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  125. # [01:32] <Hixie> at least for these examples
  126. # [01:32] <Hixie> there are some more complex things i don't think you'd be able to represent as well
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  128. # [01:32] <Hixie> do you plan to use this for property value syntax too?
  129. # [01:32] <Hixie> or just core syntax?
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  131. # [01:35] <Hixie> TabAtkins: btw, for the hyphen case / <optional>, i think it's convention to put the "normal" case in the straight line, which in this case would mean the hyphen would be on the side branch
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  133. # [01:36] <Hixie> TabAtkins: also, you need an element for "sequence of stuff" so that a <choice> can choose between sequences
  134. # [01:37] <Hixie> consider e.g. http://www.freepascal.org/docs-html/ref/ref79x.png
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  136. # [01:38] <Hixie> TabAtkins: this diagram has an example i don't think you could do with xml easily: http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/greg.ewing/python/paramlist.png
  137. # [01:40] <GPHemsley> so... :active defaults to the whole page if an element isn't specified?
  138. # [01:41] <Hixie> no
  139. # [01:41] <Hixie> :active is equilavent to *:active
  140. # [01:41] <Hixie> *|*:active, if there's no default namespace
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  142. # [01:41] <Hixie> like .active would be
  143. # [01:43] <GPHemsley> ah
  144. # [01:43] <GPHemsley> though isn't that effectively the same thing?
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  146. # [01:45] <Hixie> depends on what exactly you mean by "defaults to the whole page"
  147. # [01:46] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Probably the fact that :active is *:active ;)
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  150. # [01:55] <Hixie> the script that i report bugs with just told me off for not being descriptive enough for me to understand what i meant
  151. # [01:55] <Hixie> -_-
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  160. # [02:12] <heycam> zewt, I'm working on getting text selectable in Firefox, should land in a couple of weeks
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  162. # [02:13] <zewt> looks like it's selectable in chrome, but still doesn't highlight on search
  163. # [02:13] <zewt> (which seems odd--seems like the hard part's done)
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  165. # [02:14] <heycam> (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=655877 if you care)
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  194. # [03:27] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Good point about the normal case being straight line. In that case, <optional> should be a leaf node, and <choice> can put its first option in the straight line position.
  195. # [03:28] <Hixie> fair enough
  196. # [03:28] <TabAtkins> I *think* you can write the def_param_list without repeating yourself. I'll see.
  197. # [03:28] <TabAtkins> And yes, I just haven't needed a <sequence> element yet in those two examples (assuming that there's implicit sequencing at the root).
  198. # [03:29] <TabAtkins> So far, I'm just planning on using this for the CSS token syntax. If it's useful for other stuff in the future, that's cool. ^_^
  199. # [03:30] <Hixie> cool
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  209. # [03:46] <TabAtkins> Ugh, the def_param_list *is* doable in my syntax without repetition, but you have to rewrite it to be less clear (so all the skips are cleanly nested).
  210. # [03:47] <TabAtkins> Oh well, I can always manually generate things that run into that kind of problem.
  211. # [03:47] <TabAtkins> To be fair, this grammar is actually kinda hard to write as a regex or BNF.
  212. # [03:48] <TabAtkins> Or, no, a BNF for it is probably pretty easy.
  213. # [03:48] <TabAtkins> My syntax works well for regex-style things only.
  214. # [03:48] <TabAtkins> But being able to generate *most* of that diagram (everything but the skip line at the bottom) automatically and just hand-filling in the last bit is still pretty good.
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  216. # [03:52] <Hixie> yeah, that's certainly a good start :-)
  217. # [03:52] <Hixie> dunno how often one would see that anyway
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  425. # [21:07] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Does this (really old) bug relate to the unload stuff you were working on the other day? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13701
  426. # [21:07] <GPHemsley> (Oh, you were the QA Contact on it until 2009!)
  427. # [21:10] <GPHemsley> Is there a document describing what "DOM0" actually refers to? Or is it just some arbitrary name for "whatever browsers supported as of XYZ date"?
  428. # [21:11] <GPHemsley> And are the features of DOM0 superseded by other documents? Or do the other DOM documents build orthogonal to each other?
  429. # [21:12] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
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  431. # [21:14] <zewt> DOM0-kun?
  432. # [21:15] <GPHemsley> ?
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  482. # [23:15] <annevk> GPHemsley: DOM0 are the APIs not in the DOM or JavaScript before HTML and related efforts standardized most of them
  483. # [23:15] <annevk> if that makes sense
  484. # [23:16] <annevk> e.g. window, window.history, window.location, XMLHttpRequest, keyboard events
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  492. # Session Close: Sun Sep 09 00:00:01 2012

The end :)