/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-09-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 20 10:33:16 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [10:33] * Now talking in #whatwg
  4. # [10:33] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  5. # [10:33] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
  6. # [10:33] <krijnh> Tee hee
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  31. # [11:54] <smaug____> hsivonen: welcome back
  32. # [11:55] <annevk> so the new Maps.app is terrible, but the new Phone.app lets me call again
  33. # [11:56] <annevk> working Phone.app prolly beats Maps.app
  34. # [11:57] <annevk> krijn: teehee indeed
  35. # [12:03] <jgraham> annevk: My 200SEK Nokia thing lets me make calls, so it seems to me that if you are paying 6000+SEK then that's 5800SEK's for broken mapping
  36. # [12:03] <jgraham> s/SEK's/SEK/
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  38. # [12:04] <annevk> jgraham: if it only were that simple :)
  39. # [12:04] <zcorpan> 5800 for broken Maps.app
  40. # [12:04] <zcorpan> sounds like a fair deal :-)
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  47. # [12:33] <hsivonen> smaug____: thanks
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  65. # [13:42] <annevk> Does http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-url-parse look comprehensible enough?
  66. # [13:42] <annevk> It's quite a bit of work to write it all out, so I rather not complete it only to hear it has to be redone
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  70. # [13:52] <annevk> Ah, no feedbac?
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  72. # [13:57] <odinho> annevk: Well, it takes time to read and understand, -- but that's just because that's how it is. I understand what's happening if that was the question.
  73. # [13:58] <annevk> sounds good enough to me :)
  74. # [13:58] <annevk> and yeah, URLs are annoying :)
  75. # [14:00] <Ms2ger> Maybe a list of the possible states would be useful?
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  77. # [14:10] <annevk> yeah maybe, lets first write the whole thing down
  78. # [14:11] <annevk> then fix a few small things and then maybe start raising some questions as to how people want various interop issues resolved
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  85. # [14:21] <zcorpan> annevk: do you generate the spec from the javascript impl?
  86. # [14:22] <annevk> nah
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  88. # [14:23] <annevk> it's only a couple of hours to write it out, figuring out the conversion code would be more and it would not be good or readable anyway
  89. # [14:23] <annevk> but it's written based on the JavaScript impl
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  91. # [14:24] <zcorpan> annevk: would be good if it said at the top what the algorithm can return (or what it does)
  92. # [14:25] <zcorpan> annevk: e.g. i expected it to return an error instead of just aborting in step 3 in scheme start
  93. # [14:26] <annevk> you can only get in step 3 if you set .protocol
  94. # [14:26] <annevk> override stuff is like innerHTML madness in the HTML parser
  95. # [14:27] <annevk> but yeah, some notes should be added in due course
  96. # [14:27] <annevk> forks encouraged :)
  97. # [14:30] <zcorpan> yay https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=744907
  98. # [14:34] <zcorpan> annevk: should it be possible to pass in a URL object as baseUrl?
  99. # [14:35] <annevk> I'd rather not do that
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  103. # [14:35] <zcorpan> why not?
  104. # [14:35] <zcorpan> what happens if the base url is invalid?
  105. # [14:35] <annevk> we can make it work, but URL objects can be manipulated in weird ways and the parser would then have to account for that
  106. # [14:35] * Ms2ger wonders why this Zynga guy sends email in euc-kr
  107. # [14:35] <annevk> good question
  108. # [14:36] <annevk> zcorpan: should maybe throw for that case
  109. # [14:36] <annevk> zcorpan: also if the base URL hierarchical flag is not set, both are kinda useless
  110. # [14:36] <annevk> zcorpan: I'll add an XXX
  111. # [14:37] <zcorpan> if i have a URL and want to resolve something against it, it seems silly to have to serialize it for it to work
  112. # [14:37] <marcosc_> Anyone here interested in the responsive images stuff?
  113. # [14:37] <Ms2ger> No
  114. # [14:38] <marcosc_> :)
  115. # [14:38] <annevk> zcorpan: e.g. consider if you have a URL and then set its protocol to data
  116. # [14:38] <annevk> zcorpan: it's still a "hierarchical" URL because browsers do weird stuff
  117. # [14:38] <annevk> not sure what result you want out of that
  118. # [14:38] <annevk> I mean if you come with a proposal that solves all the weird shit, mkay
  119. # [14:44] <zcorpan> annevk: can you give a list of weird states i need to cover?
  120. # [14:44] <annevk> prolly once I have looked at it in more detail
  121. # [14:44] <annevk> what we could do btw
  122. # [14:44] <annevk> is that if you pass a URL object in
  123. # [14:44] <annevk> we just parse its URL.href again
  124. # [14:45] <annevk> and if that fails, you fucked up
  125. # [14:45] <zcorpan> annevk: tentatively i'd just check for the weird states and throw INVALID_STATE_ERR
  126. # [14:46] <zcorpan> or have a flag "weird state" that gets set when the url is mutated in weird ways, or whatever
  127. # [14:47] <zcorpan> i guess parsing URL.href could be black-box equivalent
  128. # [14:47] <annevk> it better be :)
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  137. # [15:22] <annevk> Anyone know if it's normal for GitHub to lag behind?
  138. # [15:23] <annevk> Something I committed has not shown up on the site thus far...
  139. # [15:23] <Ms2ger> Hmm, https://github.com/whatwg suddenly looks rather different
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  141. # [15:24] <annevk> today's redesign I guess
  142. # [15:24] <annevk> but I'm more worried about the syncing
  143. # [15:25] <jgraham> Doesn't sound that normal
  144. # [15:25] <jgraham> Did you check if it is actually in the repo?
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  149. # [15:30] <annevk> it seems to be in now
  150. # [15:30] <annevk> but that was at least a delay of several minutes
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  164. # [15:51] <annevk> and again
  165. # [15:51] <annevk> committed 3:40
  166. # [15:52] <annevk> lets see when it shows up
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  175. # [16:07] <annevk> still not
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  181. # [16:14] <annevk> now it is
  182. # [16:14] <annevk> so that's about 20 minutes
  183. # [16:14] <annevk> zcorpan: added the URL argument thingie: http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#api
  184. # [16:14] <odinho> maybe they're going freemium on the time.
  185. # [16:14] <annevk> zcorpan: haven't actually fixed the bugs it might cause
  186. # [16:15] <annevk> I wanted to expose invalid URLs
  187. # [16:15] <annevk> should I make that URLUtils.isInvalid?
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  189. # [16:16] <odinho> Hmm. Just did a small private OTW. Opera is the only one having spaces in its Accept header...
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  192. # [16:21] <annevk> they haven't fixed that yet?
  193. # [16:21] <annevk> ideally Accept is just nuked
  194. # [16:22] <annevk> but that's a compat issue
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  196. # [16:25] <odinho> annevk: I might just do a troll patch for it. Saw the bug now. Really need those spaces out. I just had to fix a compat issue with a website because we have spaces.
  197. # [16:26] <annevk> ideally you also write that down somewhere
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  199. # [16:26] <annevk> odinho: add it to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTTP_Issues please
  200. # [16:27] <annevk> should maybe rename that page to HTTP to make it easier to find
  201. # [16:27] <odinho> annevk: I haz no user.
  202. # [16:28] <annevk> email?
  203. # [16:28] <odinho> annevk: the obvious one I guess :]
  204. # [16:32] <zcorpan> ilovespicegirls@hotmail.com ?
  205. # [16:32] <Ms2ger> I thought that was you, zcorpan?
  206. # [16:33] <zcorpan> wait, maybe that was lachy
  207. # [16:33] <annevk> odinho: moved it to HTTP
  208. # [16:33] <annevk> wait, I've not been chatting with a girl all this time?
  209. # [16:33] <Ms2ger> That's what I thought when I heard "Anne"
  210. # [16:34] <annevk> Belgians
  211. # [16:34] <zcorpan> Ms2ger though is clearly a girl
  212. # [16:34] <annevk> or an unproductive robot
  213. # [16:34] <Ms2ger> You saw through the "Ms."?
  214. # [16:35] <zcorpan> yep
  215. # [16:35] <jgraham> Oooh, like Ms Pacman?
  216. # [16:35] <jgraham> Ms2ger is actually an 80s video game gone sentinent?
  217. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> Beep
  218. # [16:35] * Ms2ger eats the ghost of longdesc
  219. # [16:35] <jgraham> *sentient
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  221. # [16:38] <jgraham> Actually longdesc is quite like the pacman ghosts
  222. # [16:38] <Ms2ger> It always comes back?
  223. # [16:38] <jgraham> Yeah :(
  224. # [16:39] <Ms2ger> http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/31865121758/the-joker-shares-his-approach-on-css2-1-issues also applies to HTML5, I guess
  225. # [16:39] <Ms2ger> "W3C Invites Implementations of The WebSocket API"
  226. # [16:39] <Ms2ger> Oh, why thank you, I'll start implementing right away
  227. # [16:39] <jgraham> The W3C would be rubbish as party planners
  228. # [16:39] <zcorpan> yeah we've been waiting for the w3c invitation!
  229. # [16:40] <jgraham> We'd be half way through trashing their house before they sent out the invites
  230. # [16:40] <Ms2ger> Of only that was all they were rubbish at
  231. # [16:40] <Ms2ger> If, even
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  241. # [17:10] <annevk> TC39 has some complicated way to define percent escaping: http://es5.github.com/#Encode
  242. # [17:10] <annevk> I was hoping for a couple of lines :)
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  259. # [17:55] <annevk> mine are a bit shorter
  260. # [17:55] <annevk> http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#percent-escaped
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  298. # [18:50] * ojan_away is now known as ojan
  299. # [18:50] * SamB_MacG5 wonders why he's supposed to leave his sense of logic at the door
  300. # [18:50] * SamB_MacG5 wonders "What door?"
  301. # [18:51] <SamB_MacG5> So, I was wondering why XBL 2.0 was scrapped. Is this a good place to find out, or do you know a better place?
  302. # [18:52] <annevk> nobody implemented it
  303. # [18:52] <SamB_MacG5> I wish W3C docs would/could mention stuff like that ...
  304. # [18:54] <annevk> you mean like http://www.w3.org/TR/xbl/#status-of-this-document
  305. # [18:55] <SamB_MacG5> Pretty sure I read that, but it wasn't clear that the lack of plans to implement was the reason for abandonment, rather than the other way around
  306. # [18:56] <annevk> anyway
  307. # [18:56] <annevk> search for "web components"
  308. # [18:56] <annevk> or bug dglazkov
  309. # [18:56] <annevk> that's the new hot thing
  310. # [18:56] <annevk> though like XBL vendor interest is scarce
  311. # [18:56] <annevk> with /\
  312. # [18:57] <SamB_MacG5> /\ ?
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  314. # [18:57] <Ms2ger> An arrow
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  316. # [18:57] <SamB_MacG5> ah
  317. # [18:58] * SamB_MacG5 is used to ^ for that, possibly with dashes on one side or the other
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  319. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> ~^~
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  321. # [18:58] <annevk> mustache?
  322. # [18:59] * ap__ is now known as ap
  323. # [18:59] <SamB_MacG5> anyway, who can I bug about clarifying http://www.w3.org/TR/xbl/#status-of-this-document ?
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  328. # [19:04] <marcosc> SamB_MacG5: there should be a mailing list mentioned in the status of this document
  329. # [19:05] <SamB_MacG5> true
  330. # [19:05] <SamB_MacG5> there are actually *two* of them
  331. # [19:06] <SamB_MacG5> I guess public-webapps@w3.org is probably more appropriate for such administrative feedback?
  332. # [19:07] <marcosc> Yeah, hit those guys up... but I would recommend some text to be added... otherwise, I doubt anyone will do anything about it
  333. # [19:08] <SamB_MacG5> you mean, I should suggest a specific piece of text to insert?
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  335. # [19:08] <SamB_MacG5> and possibly replacements for parts I think are unclear?
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  375. # [20:37] <annevk> Ms2ger: so should we move DOM Parsing into DOM?
  376. # [20:37] <Ms2ger> Mm, I dunno
  377. # [20:37] <Ms2ger> It's icky markup ;)
  378. # [20:39] <annevk> you mean the source code or you mean you don't want markup features to spoil the DOM?
  379. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> The latter
  380. # [20:40] <annevk> okay
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  383. # [20:43] <annevk> only a few days left and apart from IPv6 I will be 80% done
  384. # [20:43] <annevk> then of course comes the next 80%
  385. # [20:44] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|lunch
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  389. # [20:45] <Ms2ger> Heh
  390. # [20:46] <annevk> it's not too bad for a couple of weeks of research, although I guess it was closer to one or two months, don't quite remember when I started
  391. # [20:47] <annevk> I wonder what Hixie estimated back in the days for writing the URL part
  392. # [20:48] <annevk> I wonder if he included writing the Encoding Standard so http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#query-percent-escaped would be defined :)
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  397. # [20:53] <matjas> Ms2ger: you magnificent bastard, you https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11204#c46
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  400. # [21:02] <annevk> hey matjas
  401. # [21:02] <annevk> matjas: did you get my feedback the other day?
  402. # [21:02] * Joins: ^esc (~esc_ape@77.116.247.34.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  403. # [21:03] <matjas> annevk: i didn’t get anything
  404. # [21:03] <matjas> annevk: was it here in #whatwg?
  405. # [21:03] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@81-231-170-159-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  406. # [21:04] <annevk> matjas: http://logbot.glob.com.au/?c=freenode%23whatwg&s=18%20Sep%202012&e=18%20Sep%202012#c722062
  407. # [21:04] <annevk> matjas: though in the end I guess all that was valid was the typo, as what should really be done is not entirely clear yet
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  409. # [21:05] <matjas> thanks
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  413. # [21:07] <annevk> matjas: are you using that Punycode in the wild btw?
  414. # [21:07] <annevk> matjas: I was wondering whether we should expose such a thing as native API
  415. # [21:09] <matjas> annevk: Punycode.js ships with Node.js, and some other open-source projects depend on it, so yes I think it’s being used
  416. # [21:09] <annevk> ah yeah, outside of browsers
  417. # [21:09] <matjas> annevk: (Node.js uses it internally for its URL stuff)
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  419. # [21:09] <annevk> yeah, noticed that when looking at their URL impl
  420. # [21:10] <matjas> IMHO it would be a useful API to have built-in
  421. # [21:10] <matjas> in browsers
  422. # [21:11] <matjas> especially since stuff like <input type=email> disallows IDNA
  423. # [21:11] <annevk> maybe we could have static methods on URL
  424. # [21:11] <annevk> URL.toPunycode() / URL.fromPunycode() or some such
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  427. # [21:14] * matjas donates Punycode.js unit tests to browser vendors
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  434. # [21:20] <matjas> annevk: just noticed your last three blog posts too, yay!
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  442. # [21:27] <matjas> “There are other characters that are used as "full stops" that one could consider mapping as label separators, but their use as such has not been investigated thoroughly.” Thanks, RFC 5895
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  450. # [21:46] <humph_> I had a question about the best way to write conformance tests for WebVTT, specifically how and where to capture metadata about the different good/bad .vtt files
  451. # [21:46] <humph_> should we put them in the .vtt file's comment block, in a separate file per test, in a wiki, in one file keyed by test file, etc.
  452. # [21:46] <humph_> what's the right approach?
  453. # [21:46] <jgraham> zcorpan: ^
  454. # [21:47] <jgraham> If it were me and I was writing a parser, I might develop a simple text format to embed the VTT and a desciption in
  455. # [21:47] <zcorpan> humph_: webvtt doesn't currently support comments, so your options are in the cue text or in a separate file
  456. # [21:48] <jgraham> Like we did for the HTML parser tests
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  458. # [21:48] <jgraham> Then have a script to spit out the actual browser-readable tests
  459. # [21:48] <humph_> jgraham: so a file that you'd split the .vtt out of at test time?
  460. # [21:48] <jgraham> Yeah
  461. # [21:48] <zcorpan> humph_: for some of my parser tests i've put json in cue data with expected settings/timings; and a separate json file with expected number of cues or "error"
  462. # [21:48] <humph_> I was afraid of putting it in the cue text and making the tests unnecessarily large
  463. # [21:49] <zcorpan> for my other parser tests i used html5lib style like jgraham suggested
  464. # [21:49] <zcorpan> (i.e. for testing cue text parsing)
  465. # [21:49] <zcorpan> i haven't released these tests but i intend to
  466. # [21:50] <humph_> cool. I'm implementing webvtt in firefox with my class this term, just wanted to figure out the best way to start
  467. # [21:50] <humph_> they are beginning with these tests
  468. # [21:50] <zcorpan> ok
  469. # [21:50] <jgraham> Nice project :)
  470. # [21:51] <jgraham> And testing++
  471. # [21:51] <humph_> http://vocamus.net/dave/?p=1525
  472. # [21:51] <humph_> yeah, should be fun
  473. # [21:51] <jgraham> I hope you will release the results to W3C for inclusion in the official testsuite
  474. # [21:51] <humph_> yeah, sylvia suggested the same
  475. # [21:51] <humph_> I think that's a good plan
  476. # [21:51] <jgraham> sylvia++
  477. # [21:51] <humph_> indeed
  478. # [21:52] <humph_> alright, thanks for the ideas
  479. # [21:52] <jgraham> If you need any help with test harness wrangling or getting the tests submitted feel free to ask me
  480. # [21:52] <humph_> k
  481. # [21:52] <humph_> I started by doing a node module to wrap the js parser
  482. # [21:52] <jgraham> Or there is #testing on the W3C server
  483. # [21:52] <humph_> https://github.com/humphd/node-webvtt
  484. # [21:53] <humph_> so they could at least validate in a test harness
  485. # [21:53] <zcorpan> i used testharness.js for testing the parser and the dom api, and reftests for rendering
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  489. # [21:59] <annevk> matjas: nice find
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  491. # [21:59] <annevk> matjas: so yeah, what we end up with here kinda depends on what browsers are going to implement :(
  492. # [22:00] <annevk> matjas: Opera has some kind of mixture, Gecko is aiming to adopt http://jprs.co.jp/idn/index-e.html
  493. # [22:00] <annevk> matjas: WebKit has no plans
  494. # [22:00] <annevk> dunno about Internet Explorer
  495. # [22:01] <Hixie> annevk: any chance i can get "nodes are inserted" to be defined so as to give me one hook per node that is inserted, in tree order?
  496. # [22:01] <Hixie> annevk: (if not no worries, i can do it on my end)
  497. # [22:01] <jgraham> Hixie: Doing the "which order should scripts run when several are inserted" bug?
  498. # [22:01] <Hixie> good guess
  499. # [22:01] <Hixie> ues
  500. # [22:01] <Hixie> yes, even
  501. # [22:02] <jgraham> :)
  502. # [22:02] * linclark is now known as linclark|afk
  503. # [22:03] <annevk> Hixie: yeah we could rephrase it like that
  504. # [22:03] <annevk> Hixie: file a bug, can fix it tomorrow prolly
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  506. # [22:04] <annevk> I think HTML is the only one that makes use of this right now (SVG should prolly too) so whatever you want works
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  508. # [22:04] <Hixie> annevk: k, thanks
  509. # [22:06] <Hixie> annevk: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18941
  510. # [22:07] <smaug____> annevk: where should I file DOM4 bugs nowadays
  511. # [22:07] <smaug____> is w3c bugzilla still ok?
  512. # [22:07] <annevk> smaug____: yeah works for me
  513. # [22:08] <annevk> I should maybe get a component inside the WHATWG product but so far nobody in the WebApps WG has complained
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  515. # [22:11] <zcorpan> [tm]: ^
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  543. # [23:47] <Hixie> who's in charge of cssom these days, do they have a bugzilla account?
  544. # [23:49] <jgraham> Supposedly Glenn Adams
  545. # [23:50] * Quits: danzik17 (~danzik17@164.55.254.106) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  546. # [23:51] <Hixie> k
  547. # [23:52] <jgraham> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/log/911a391cb16c/cssom/cssom-source suggests that it might even be slightly true
  548. # Session Close: Fri Sep 21 00:00:01 2012

The end :)