/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-09-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 21 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <Hixie> anne know if apple is on board with Opus as an audio codec?
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  6. # [00:04] <Hixie> hober: ^
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  9. # [00:12] * jgraham has no idea how to get <input type=file multiple> to expose paths
  10. # [00:12] <jgraham> What am I missing?
  11. # [00:12] <Hixie> it doesn't expose paths
  12. # [00:12] <jgraham> *names* are rather easy
  13. # [00:12] <Hixie> (i suppose a UA could include the path in the name, if so inclined)
  14. # [00:13] <Hixie> oh you mean how _could_ we do it?
  15. # [00:13] <Hixie> it'd be easy
  16. # [00:13] <Hixie> just make the filenames foo/bar/baz.quux
  17. # [00:13] <jgraham> No, no
  18. # [00:13] <Hixie> or C:\foo\bar\baz.quux
  19. # [00:13] <jgraham> "File names may contain partial paths, e.g. in the case that a user has selected an entire directory hierarchy. Path components should be separated from each other using U+005C REVERSE SOLIDUS character (\)."
  20. # [00:13] <Hixie> ah, there you go, the spec even says it already
  21. # [00:13] <Hixie> cool
  22. # [00:13] <jgraham> I don't want it to expose paths
  23. # [00:13] <jgraham> :)
  24. # [00:14] <jgraham> Darin claimed that it already does
  25. # [00:14] <Hixie> whether it does or not is entirely an implementation issue
  26. # [00:14] <jgraham> AFAICT this isn't actually the case
  27. # [00:14] <Hixie> what isn't
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  29. # [00:15] <jgraham> That paths are exposed by this API
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  31. # [00:15] <Hixie> they can be
  32. # [00:15] <Hixie> in theory
  33. # [00:15] <Hixie> whether implementations do so or not is up to them
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  35. # [00:17] <jgraham> How would they expose it if they did?
  36. # [00:17] <Hixie> you just quoted the answer to your question
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  38. # [00:18] <Hixie> i don't understand
  39. # [00:18] <Hixie> is it not clear?
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  41. # [00:20] <jgraham> Not at all :)
  42. # [00:20] <Hixie> what's not clear
  43. # [00:20] <Hixie> i really don't understand the problem
  44. # [00:20] <jgraham> I don't see how the statement "file names may..." is related to the properties of the input element
  45. # [00:21] <Hixie> oh
  46. # [00:21] <Hixie> the file names it refers to are those that form part of hte /selected files/ list
  47. # [00:21] <Hixie> input.files returns a FileList of the /selected files/ list
  48. # [00:21] <Hixie> FileList is a list of File objects, which each have a name
  49. # [00:22] <jgraham> Right, but that explictly doesn't include a path
  50. # [00:22] <Hixie> they explicitly do, here
  51. # [00:22] <Hixie> well
  52. # [00:22] <Hixie> they don't include a path
  53. # [00:22] <Hixie> they just include a filename with backslashes
  54. # [00:22] <jgraham> What? The File API says they don't
  55. # [00:22] <Hixie> but you can interpret that as a path
  56. # [00:22] <Hixie> the HTML spec says they do
  57. # [00:23] <jgraham> "The name of the file; on getting, this must return the name of the file as a string. There are numerous file name variations on different systems; this is merely the name of the file, without path information"
  58. # [00:23] <Hixie> right
  59. # [00:23] <Hixie> hence why the HTML spec changes the name to include the path information
  60. # [00:23] <jgraham> Woah
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  62. # [00:23] <jgraham> That is totally unclear
  63. # [00:23] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  64. # [00:24] <jgraham> Why is there a "may" level wilful violation of another spec that no UA actually violates?
  65. # [00:24] <jgraham> (afaict)
  66. # [00:24] <Hixie> so that people can expose paths
  67. # [00:25] <jgraham> But since no UA actually does that, it seems highly unclear and quite probably undesirable
  68. # [00:25] <Hixie> *shrug*
  69. # [00:25] <Hixie> i don't see why it's unclear
  70. # [00:25] <Hixie> nor undesireable
  71. # [00:26] <jgraham> It's unclear because usually when you are willfully violating other specs a) it says so explicitly and b) there is a compat. reqiurement
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  74. # [00:26] <Hixie> it's not a wilful violation
  75. # [00:27] <Hixie> a wilful workaround maybe :-)
  76. # [00:27] <jgraham> Erm? If spec A says "you must not do X" and you say "you may do X" that sounds like a wilfull violation
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  78. # [00:28] <Hixie> spec A doesn't say "you must not do X". It says "you must return A, and not return B" and HTML says "put B inside A"
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  80. # [00:28] <Hixie> actually even that's not quite accurate
  81. # [00:29] <jgraham> Since "B inside A and return A" is a special case of "return B", that is just the same
  82. # [00:30] <Hixie> i read it differently but whatever
  83. # [00:30] <Hixie> i'm happy to change one or the other to avoid the appearance of disagreement
  84. # [00:31] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  85. # [00:31] <jgraham> OK. Well I should have been asleep some time ago. Seems like a good juncture to fix that.
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  107. # [01:25] <Hixie> can anyone explain the purpose of this change? https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/37b3183567666a226d304c54d6ac5123ba564dcc
  108. # [01:25] <Hixie> hober?
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  133. # [02:28] <Hixie> hah, call for implementations of websockets
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  156. # [04:03] <rniwa> AryehGregor: yt?
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  160. # [04:36] * SamB_MacG5 wonders why he's seeing hyphens inserted before/after single characters on http://hsivonen.iki.fi/cms/te/ ...
  161. # [04:39] * SamB_MacG5 supposes it might help to use the "lang" attribute?
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  166. # [04:59] <SamB_MacG5> gah... if I use the multi-page version, I get lousy back-references; if I use the single-page version, I sit there waiting for my browser...
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  169. # [05:00] * SamB_MacG5 remembers being able to open the multi-page version and have his browser not grind to a halt, wonders what changed
  170. # [05:01] <Hixie> SamB_MacG5: which browser? if you're on a G5 I think I see your problem. :-P
  171. # [05:02] <SamB_MacG5> it has more RAM than any of my other systems...
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  256. # [08:45] <Hixie> why is https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18223 marked invalid?
  257. # [08:45] <Hixie> am i missing something?
  258. # [08:45] <Hixie> it doesn't have any boilerplate from the editors, suggesting it was misfiled or something?
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  271. # [09:19] <zcorpan> Hixie: any advice on translating "flow content" and "phrasing content"? http://forums.whatwg.org/bb3/viewtopic.php?t=5074&p=8102#p8102
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  273. # [09:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: maybe darobin interpreted it as a support forum question?
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  323. # [11:10] <hsivonen> anyone want to guess how many requests for different doctype HTML.next will get?
  324. # [11:12] * Parts: bga_ (znc@69.50.229.69)
  325. # [11:16] <Ms2ger> No, it makes me sad enough without thinking about that
  326. # [11:16] * attiks|away is now known as attiks
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  333. # [11:33] <smaug____> hsivonen: is HTML.next some W3C thing?
  334. # [11:33] <smaug____> and btw, are you planning to go to TPAC?
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  344. # [11:50] <zcorpan> <!doctype html.next>
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  348. # [11:53] <jgraham> <!doctype html.next.next>
  349. # [11:54] <jgraham> gets kind of silly
  350. # [11:54] <Ms2ger> <!doctype html.doublenext>
  351. # [11:55] <jgraham> I would take inspiration from functional programming
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  354. # [11:56] <Ms2ger> next(<!doctype html>)?
  355. # [11:56] <jgraham> <!doctype applyN(html, next, 2)>
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  366. # [12:21] <annevk> for DOMTokenList
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  368. # [12:21] <annevk> do we want DOMTokenList.contains("a", "b") as well?
  369. # [12:22] <Ms2ger> What does it mean?
  370. # [12:22] <annevk> with AND semantics
  371. # [12:23] <annevk> I guess I'll leave that for now
  372. # [12:23] <Ms2ger> If someone wants to implement it, I guess
  373. # [12:23] <Ms2ger> Gecko might even be able to in the near future
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  375. # [12:24] <annevk> I'm adding arity to add() and remove() now
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  377. # [12:24] <annevk> fixing https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13999 as I think that part of ES6 is ready
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  379. # [12:24] <Ms2ger> I believe SM supports the rest thing
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  387. # [12:43] <annevk> http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#domtokenlist
  388. # [12:45] <hsivonen> walmart.ca has a lovely content-type: text/html;UTF-8;charset=UTF-8
  389. # [12:47] <annevk> should work fine no?
  390. # [12:48] <hsivonen> annevk: yes
  391. # [12:52] <annevk> Is there a way to make https://github.com/whatwg list the repository links as well? (Each repository can have a short description and a link, but for some reason they are only displayed on the repository page.)
  392. # [12:53] <miketayl_r> i don't think github offers that
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  400. # [13:15] <annevk> darobin: adding a post-push hook is just as easy
  401. # [13:15] <annevk> darobin: and you get to keep control over the URL, http://url.spec.whatwg.org
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  406. # [13:39] <hsivonen> smaug____: it’s a W3C thing. I have TPAC travel booked.
  407. # [13:40] <smaug____> k
  408. # [13:40] <smaug____> I'll be in Lyon the whole week
  409. # [13:40] <annevk> hmm, now I'm somewhat tempted to visit too
  410. # [13:40] <annevk> but I don't really want to attend any meetings
  411. # [13:41] <smaug____> we can pretend to not see you if you're in the meeting room during webapps wg meeting
  412. # [13:43] <hsivonen> the validator is correct here, isn’t it? http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=943
  413. # [13:44] <annevk> for now
  414. # [13:44] <annevk> I'm going to make that valid
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  417. # [13:52] <odinho> annevk: You can come to TTWF. Or just come down and hang around. Sit in a cafe all day and hang out in breaks and stuff ;P
  418. # [13:53] <zcorpan> annevk: but then we won't be able to use [ and ] to delimit urls!1
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  421. # [13:58] <zcorpan> erratum 3297 for rfc3987 is interesting
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  423. # [13:59] <zcorpan> "it's not cool to fix errors in errata if it wasn't an error by the time we published!"
  424. # [14:00] <annevk> odinho: is that in the same time period?
  425. # [14:00] <annevk> zcorpan: oh you
  426. # [14:02] <odinho> annevk: Nah, it's some days before. But anyway it's a reason to travel down :P
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  428. # [14:10] <darobin> annevk: sorry, were you replying to something? I'm missing context
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  430. # [14:11] <darobin> annevk: there are worse places to visit than Lyon
  431. # [14:11] <darobin> though there are better times of year
  432. # [14:11] <darobin> and TTWF is in Paris right befpre
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  436. # [14:19] <annevk> darobin: I was replying to your tweet about spec hosting
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  438. # [14:21] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah, the errata system is bullshit
  439. # [14:21] <annevk> I wonder why I keep getting disconnected, oh, maybe it's OS X ML
  440. # [14:22] <Ms2ger> Why not OS HT ML?
  441. # [14:23] <annevk> Why not Zoidberg?
  442. # [14:23] <annevk> not here to debate philosophy
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  446. # [14:25] <annevk> it was the OS X update btw
  447. # [14:25] <annevk> on battery power computer sleep was 1h
  448. # [14:25] <annevk> but on adapter it was 15min
  449. # [14:25] <annevk> because Apple
  450. # [14:26] <hsivonen> zcorpan: wow. the IETF is sad.
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  452. # [14:38] <darobin> annevk: ah, that document is from tobie actually
  453. # [14:39] <tobie> what did I do again?
  454. # [14:39] <annevk> oh hey, didn't notice tobie was here
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  456. # [14:40] <darobin> tobie: annevk was providing some cryptic feedback about your specs@gh document
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  458. # [14:40] <annevk> tobie: re your github speccing, all I mentioned was that using a post-push commit hook you can have the same thing, but with control over the URL, e.g. http://url.spec.whatwg.org
  459. # [14:40] * jgraham was sort of expecting to get to the end and it to say "inception"
  460. # [14:40] <darobin> annevk: ah, you mean instead of using gh-pages?
  461. # [14:40] <annevk> yeah
  462. # [14:40] <darobin> yes, that's fine, but it does imply that you have somewhere else to host it at
  463. # [14:41] <darobin> imho both are useful
  464. # [14:41] <jgraham> Also, I don't recommend using RSpec (sorry darobin)
  465. # [14:41] <annevk> WHATWG hands out spec.whatwg.org addresses to anyone who wants to spec :)
  466. # [14:41] <tobie> agreed. Seems like we should have two parts to it then.
  467. # [14:41] <annevk> we also have html5.org available if someone fancies that
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  469. # [14:42] <darobin> jgraham: I wouldn't recommend using RSpec either, unless you want to write Ruby tests that is
  470. # [14:42] <darobin> but for a spec, ReSpec is the rocking rock in town!
  471. # [14:42] <jgraham> er ReSpec
  472. # [14:42] <tobie> Not really interested in the ReSpec vs something else debate, tbh. Turns out ReSpec makes the gh-pages hosting thing trivial, which I think is kind of cool.
  473. # [14:42] <jgraham> Turns out that two technologies that are inexplicably popular have very similar names
  474. # [14:42] <jgraham> :)
  475. # [14:43] <darobin> I blame Ali G
  476. # [14:43] <tobie> Happy to take pull requests, btw.
  477. # [14:43] <tobie> :P
  478. # [14:43] <annevk> yeah, ReSpec has a bunch of issues
  479. # [14:43] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Howto_spec#Legacy_DOM-style in particular
  480. # [14:43] <annevk> I know it's not enforced
  481. # [14:43] <annevk> but it's used all over
  482. # [14:44] <annevk> e.g. in http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Parsing/#extensions-to-the-text-interface
  483. # [14:44] <jgraham> Yeah, it's not ReSpec itself, exactly, but that it seems to encourage bad style
  484. # [14:44] <annevk> the crappy version of http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html
  485. # [14:45] <jgraham> I am happy to believe that ReSpec is super-awesomeness with bad defaults
  486. # [14:45] <jgraham> Unlike RSpec which is just fundamentally wrongheaded
  487. # [14:47] <darobin> as always, I'm happy to take patches :)
  488. # [14:47] <annevk> happy to use Anolis :)
  489. # [14:47] <tobie> I always <3 a good BDD bashing.
  490. # [14:47] <darobin> fwiw the part of ReSpec that implements legacy DOM style is called "webidl-oldschool" — perhaps for a reason :)
  491. # [14:48] <annevk> heh
  492. # [14:48] <darobin> re Anolis it's fine, I just prefer web technology
  493. # [14:50] <jgraham> darobin: That *is* oldskool. The kids these days can't cope unless they have a dedicated app for everything
  494. # [14:50] <darobin> jgraham: I guess it shows my age :)
  495. # [14:51] <jgraham> If Google had a sense of humor they would release an iOS maps app that is just maps.google.com
  496. # [14:53] <annevk> that would actually be better than the situation right now
  497. # [14:53] <tobie> If anyone had a sense of business, they would just wrap maps.google.com with PhoneGap and charge for it.
  498. # [14:53] <annevk> because maps.google.com does not indicate with some flag it can operate independently from Safari
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  500. # [14:55] <annevk> sense of business? hah, I'm unemployed and still work
  501. # [14:55] <tobie> yeah, certainly not one of us.
  502. # [14:56] <tobie> the person with a sense of business, that is, not you annevk
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  504. # [14:58] <annevk> I see
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  507. # [15:01] <tobie> annevk: I'm surprised you were able to make any sense out of my rambling.
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  509. # [15:08] <Ms2ger> jgraham, sorry, Apple wouldn't allow it
  510. # [15:09] <Ms2ger> tobie, so about github making it simpler to contribute tests...
  511. # [15:09] <Ms2ger> Do you have actual examples of outside devs submitting tests?
  512. # [15:10] * Joins: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251)
  513. # [15:10] <tobie> Ms2ger: Isn't that what Test The Web Forward is all about?
  514. # [15:10] <odinho> If it hasn't been done before, all the more reason to try to get it.
  515. # [15:10] <odinho> And yeah TTWF FTW
  516. # [15:10] <odinho> WTF as well. Hmm. Funny.
  517. # [15:11] <annevk> WHAT TF, already been done
  518. # [15:11] <Ms2ger> tobie, ttwf? They've been contributing to HG
  519. # [15:11] <annevk> miketaylr: seems only you and @whatwg are excited about add/remove
  520. # [15:11] <annevk> miketaylr: too little too late? :)
  521. # [15:12] <tobie> Well, yes. Where else would they have contributed?
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  523. # [15:12] <miketaylr> annevk: probably way too early for the US kids to get excited
  524. # [15:12] <miketaylr> let them have some coffee
  525. # [15:12] <annevk> miketaylr: still in line for that phone?
  526. # [15:12] <miketaylr> heh
  527. # [15:13] <annevk> or maybe that's just the folk that work at Starbucks
  528. # [15:13] <Ms2ger> tobie, did I misunderstand? I thought you had something set up on github
  529. # [15:13] <miketaylr> i'm sure paul_irish will alert his fanbase
  530. # [15:13] <annevk> Ms2ger: for writing specs
  531. # [15:14] <annevk> miketaylr: hard to compete with that
  532. # [15:14] <Ms2ger> Oh, I thought they had something for the ringmark thing too
  533. # [15:14] <annevk> whenever that name falls I think of goatse
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  535. # [15:14] <annevk> can't help it
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  537. # [15:18] <odinho> annevk: paul_irish or ringmark?
  538. # [15:18] <annevk> dude hahahahah
  539. # [15:18] <tobie> Ms2ger: Ringmark's a Facebook product with a high barrier to contribution (need a PHP server and a full node install, uses a custom test framework, etc). Really don't think it's relevant in this conversation.
  540. # [15:18] <Ms2ger> Oh
  541. # [15:18] <Ms2ger> Then I guess I misunderstood
  542. # [15:21] <tobie> annevk: thanks for the image.
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  548. # [15:27] <annevk> lol
  549. # [15:27] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11204#c52
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  553. # [15:32] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Equally, though I believe it is now better, you originally had to support the webkit prefix to do well at Ringmark.
  554. # [15:33] <Ms2ger> I saw a check for window.opera and gave up
  555. # [15:34] <gsnedders> Oh, test262 sniffs for Opera too. It used to make us fail tests. We tried to get it fixed to remove browser sniffing, but instead they just changed the Opera codepath.
  556. # [15:34] <gsnedders> Well, at least it now works regardless of whether you expose window.opera…
  557. # [15:35] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what's the status of regression tests for the validator?
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  559. # [15:35] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Did I not see somewhere some meta charset sniffing tests you wrote? Able to release them under the MIT license for html5lib?
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  600. # [16:42] <miketaylr> Chad Rampley is having a rough day, it would appear
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  611. # [17:10] <annevk> hmm
  612. # [17:10] <annevk> thus far the only must statements in the URL Standard are in the API section
  613. # [17:10] <annevk> I guess that works
  614. # [17:10] <annevk> Would it be weird to name the Creating section Parsing and the "parse" bit "tokenize"?
  615. # [17:11] <annevk> it does a bit more than a typical tokenizer, but otherwise it's fairly close, and "Creating" is odd
  616. # [17:12] <Hixie> wow, we have no way to render the shadow in canvas but not the shape
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  618. # [17:13] <Hixie> if you set the shape to transparent, the shadow doesn't render
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  626. # [17:26] <SamB_MacG5> Hixie: Oh, I seem to have missed where you asked me "which browser?" last night. I'm using TenFourFox 15 on this machine.
  627. # [17:27] <annevk> I emailed the list instead
  628. # [17:27] <annevk> lets see if that goes any better
  629. # [17:28] <SamB_MacG5> is rendering the shadow without the shape terribly important?
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  637. # [17:43] <dglazkov> goodd morning, Whatwg!
  638. # [17:52] <jgraham> Can we video fantasai doing her "How to file a perfect bug report" talk?
  639. # [17:52] <jgraham> Or better yet, can we get a two minute video "How to file a bug report that won't be closed as invalid on sight"?
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  686. # [19:56] <MadPig> I still don't get the whole "dropped version number" thing. How is a browser gonna know what to use? Why isn't it <html version="5.0"> or <html version="5.1">? Why can't it make sense?
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  688. # [19:59] * Ms2ger yawns
  689. # [19:59] <Ms2ger> Because a browser always uses the latest version it implements
  690. # [20:00] <dglazkov> the shuttle flyover!
  691. # [20:00] <MadPig> What?
  692. # [20:00] <dglazkov> yay
  693. # [20:00] <MadPig> Please try to make some sense.
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  695. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> Do you know space shuttles?
  696. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> They fly
  697. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> over
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  702. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> The flyover was very cool. ^_^
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  704. # [20:11] <dglazkov> http://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/events/2012/9.20.12_Shuttle_Endeavour.html for context
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  725. # [20:51] <smaug____> is Rick Byers ever here ?
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  728. # [21:11] <Hixie> Ms2ger: if you get questions about the version number thing, i recommend pointing them to the faq
  729. # [21:11] <Hixie> whatwg.org/faq
  730. # [21:14] * abstractj|lunch is now known as abstractj
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  733. # [21:18] <Ms2ger> Yay, a FAQ :)
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  736. # [21:20] <TabAtkins> SamB_MacG5: I haven't finished reading through scrollback, so someone may have gotten back to you, but XBL2 was dropped due to lack of implementor interest. It was too complex.
  737. # [21:21] <TabAtkins> SamB_MacG5: We're doing essentially the same thing, but in a saner way, with Web Components. It has impl interest, too - WebKit is the original implementor, and Firefox is getting into it as well.
  738. # [21:22] * Joins: Martin_L (~Martin_L@81-233-190-9-no212.tbcn.telia.com)
  739. # [21:22] <SamB_MacG5> yeah, annevk said something along those lines
  740. # [21:22] <SamB_MacG5> (rather more tersely, though)
  741. # [21:22] <SamB_MacG5> (and didn't mention the implementation status of web components)
  742. # [21:26] <SamB_MacG5> TabAtkins: is there a good wiki overview of web components?
  743. # [21:28] <Hixie> TabAtkins: web components has the same level of interest in it now as xbl2 did about 10 years ago... we'll see how long it holds!
  744. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> SamB_MacG5: Not wiki, but we have an explainer document: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/explainer/index.html
  745. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Who actually implemented XBL2?
  746. # [21:28] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i have hope, though. dglazkov's approach of splitting it up into smaller problems is solid
  747. # [21:28] <Hixie> TabAtkins: mozilla implemented xbl1, xbl2 is just a recasting of it.
  748. # [21:28] <Hixie> TabAtkins: hyatt had parts of xbl2 implemented in webkit
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  750. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> I'll have to trust you on that - from what I understood, XBL2 was significant different from 1.
  751. # [21:29] <SamB_MacG5> Hixie: yes, but was mozilla interested in either implementing both simultaneously, or trying to migrate AMO (and then some) to XBL2?
  752. # [21:30] <SamB_MacG5> I guess AMO *was* probably smaller then, but still...
  753. # [21:30] <Hixie> TabAtkins: well, 1 never had a real spec. xbl2 was an attempt at speccing it and cleaning it up.
  754. # [21:30] <Hixie> SamB_MacG5: everyone was "interested" at one point or another :-) nothing really went anywhere.
  755. # [21:31] <Hixie> SamB_MacG5: hopefully dglazkov's approach will be more successful
  756. # [21:31] <Hixie> (i expect that it will)
  757. # [21:31] <dglazkov> it's all about proper cheerleading
  758. # [21:31] <SamB_MacG5> well, I guess my point is that both of those approaches sound painful, though at least "implement both simultaneously" might have been possible...
  759. # [21:31] <dglazkov> \o/ web components \o/
  760. # [21:32] <SamB_MacG5> dglazkov: smaller pieces probably also helps?
  761. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> Smaller pieces has been working out extremely well in all our efforts.
  762. # [21:32] <dglazkov> SamB_MacG5: sure. but cheerleading. \o/
  763. # [21:32] <dglazkov> :)
  764. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> It's also much saner for the platform as a whole, because it means you're much more likely to get something that relies on a minimum of magic.
  765. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> Less magic = easier to implement slight variations in libraries, or to tweak details for yourself.
  766. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> Some of the worst additions to the platform are large dumps, because they tend to have too much interconnected stuff, so you can't tweak any details without reimplementing the whole stack yourself.
  767. # [21:34] <dglazkov> Mozilla is trying to ship parts of it pretty soon, afaik
  768. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> See: CSS layout, which desperately needs some lower-level primitives.
  769. # [21:36] <Hixie> i don't know that i'd agree entirely with that philosophy
  770. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> I know you don't. You're wrong. ^_^
  771. # [21:37] <Hixie> i know you are, but what am i? :-P
  772. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> Rubber, apparently.
  773. # [21:40] <Hixie> in general, the reason i don't entirely buy into the philisophy you describe is that it relies on a host of very vague and relative concepts like "magic", "easier", "large", "too much", "lower".
  774. # [21:41] <Hixie> i do agree with many of hte conclusions you draw from this philosophy
  775. # [21:41] <Hixie> but i am not comfortable with it as stated
  776. # [21:41] <SamB_MacG5> Hixie: oh, you think he hand-waves too much?
  777. # [21:41] <jgraham> dglazkov: You need to work on your ascii dance shapes if you want adoption. At least throw in some \o\ and /o/
  778. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> The concepts are vague and arguable, but the philosophy seems to work well in practice, and be useful for arguing with people over what should be native vs libraries vs predefined in terms of native stuff.
  779. # [21:42] <dglazkov> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  780. # [21:42] <dglazkov> ---(ツ)_/¯
  781. # [21:42] <dglazkov> _/¯(ツ)_/¯
  782. # [21:42] <jgraham> Now you're just being silly
  783. # [21:42] <SamB_MacG5> anyway, small pieces makes it easier to get somewhere
  784. # [21:42] <dglazkov> _/¯(ツ)---
  785. # [21:42] <dglazkov> :)
  786. # [21:42] <jgraham> :)
  787. # [21:42] <Hixie> TabAtkins: if it's just meant to be a way to convince people who aren't paying much attention, ok :-)
  788. # [21:42] <dglazkov> if you come to #chromium, you can always as trungl-bot to dance
  789. # [21:43] <Hixie> TabAtkins: but then it's not a philosophy, it's just a... something, there's a word for it, i forget what
  790. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I think it's a reasonable statement of my actual philosophy toward platform additions, but it's also useful as a conversational bludgeon.
  791. # [21:43] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i would be interested in working out what the real philosophy is
  792. # [21:44] <Hixie> "bludgeon" isn't the word i was looking for but it'll do :-P
  793. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> crowbar
  794. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> To pry apart their argument.
  795. # [21:46] <dglazkov> I think slightlyoff's Bedrock post describes the approach pretty well
  796. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> Yes, that's a rather more verbose statement of it.
  797. # [21:47] * SamB_MacG5 wonders how hard it would be to make the HTML spec display like the multi-page version, while still keeping a DOM like that of the single-page version
  798. # [21:47] * SamB_MacG5 also wonders if this would perform better
  799. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> What do you mean by "display like"?
  800. # [21:47] <Hixie> yeah i _definitely_ don't agree with the principles in /bedrock/
  801. # [21:47] <SamB_MacG5> TabAtkins: I mean, showing one chunk at a time
  802. # [21:48] <SamB_MacG5> however the multi-page version is chunked
  803. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> SamB_MacG5: Ah, kk. That would help with some performance issues (less things in the rendering structure at once), but not all.
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  805. # [21:50] <SamB_MacG5> TabAtkins: Yes, that was my thinking
  806. # [21:51] <SamB_MacG5> I mean, at the very least it the browser wouldn't have to look at the hidden parts of the tree during layout, right?
  807. # [21:51] <jgraham> The problem with philosphy is that it sounds good with highfalutin ideas, but when the real world comes along it tends to fall apart rather quickly
  808. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> Correct. display:none things dont' show up in the render tree at all.
  809. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> jgraham: And yet, it seems to be working out well for us.
  810. # [21:52] <Hixie> i think the problem with /bedrock/ is that it has a faulty initial assumption. e.g. I wouldn't describe the JVM as particularly core to what Java is.
  811. # [21:52] <Hixie> there are "platform" concepts that apply above it -- the language apis, e.g.
  812. # [21:52] <jgraham> TabAtkins: What does?
  813. # [21:52] <SamB_MacG5> and, while there's no *guarantee* that source locality corresponds with address-space locality, it seems likely that it often would?
  814. # [21:53] <Hixie> there are "platform" concepts that apply below it -- the chip's number of processors, cache lines, etc, e.g.
  815. # [21:53] <Hixie> and you don't _need_ a jvm for java anyway
  816. # [21:53] <SamB_MacG5> as long as most of the DOM was left pristine?
  817. # [21:53] <Hixie> and you can write non-java to the jvm
  818. # [21:53] <Hixie> and there are things the jvm can do that java can't
  819. # [21:53] <Hixie> anyway
  820. # [21:54] <SamB_MacG5> you don't need a JVM to use JVM code, for that matter ;-)
  821. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> jgraham: The concept of "specify the minimum amount of magic at the bottom, and then define all the author-useful stuff in terms of that, rather than just defining author-useful things directly with larger amounts of magic".
  822. # [21:54] <SamB_MacG5> I can think of two ways to use JVM code without a JVM
  823. # [21:54] <Hixie> TabAtkins: what is "magic"?
  824. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> When people violate that, authors end up having to reimplement the entire thing from the ground up to make small tweaks.
  825. # [21:54] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  826. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Anything you can't do (or can't do performantly) from author-space code.
  827. # [21:54] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Where is that working out for you?
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  829. # [21:55] <jgraham> CSS certainly doesn't seem like an example of taht
  830. # [21:55] <jgraham> And web compoents doesn't exist yet
  831. # [21:55] <SamB_MacG5> TabAtkins: that reminds me of Python
  832. # [21:55] <TabAtkins> jgraham: For example, all of our attempts to expand the web platform as part of the Parkour project.
  833. # [21:55] <Hixie> TabAtkins: so in java, everything is magic?
  834. # [21:55] <TabAtkins> Web Components, MDV, etc.
  835. # [21:55] <Hixie> TabAtkins: indeed, in C++, everything is magic?
  836. # [21:55] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Huh?
  837. # [21:56] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i don't understand your definition of "magic"
  838. # [21:56] <Ms2ger> Huh?
  839. # [21:56] <jgraham> SamB_MacG5: Python has *loads* of magic
  840. # [21:56] * Peter` is now known as beverloo`
  841. # [21:56] <jgraham> TabAtkins's definition sounds like C
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  843. # [21:56] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Hm, not sure how to restate it. Anything you can't polyfill with reasonable performance is probably magic.
  844. # [21:56] <Hixie> TabAtkins: x86 has instructions that perform stuff that you can't do "performantly" using other instructions, are they magic?
  845. # [21:56] <TabAtkins> The amount of magic is proportional to how much of the stack you need to reimplement to tweak details of it.
  846. # [21:57] <SamB_MacG5> jgraham: I was thinking about how much more of the magic is kept in the Lib/ tree than in the core
  847. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yes, the lowest-level things are always magic.
  848. # [21:57] <Hixie> you can build non-magic on top of magic? o_O
  849. # [21:57] <SamB_MacG5> (and isn't really magic at all)
  850. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> By definition, yes.
  851. # [21:57] <Hixie> i think a different term would be more helpful here for me to understand what you're trying to argue
  852. # [21:57] <SamB_MacG5> Hixie: never heard of magitek?
  853. # [21:57] <TabAtkins> Perhaps a better term to help your understanding would be "atomic"?
  854. # [21:57] <jgraham> SamB_MacG5: But all the protocols and stuff in python are built-in magic
  855. # [21:58] <TabAtkins> An indivisible piece of functionality?
  856. # [21:58] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i think the problem is that you seem to be assuming that being able to divide functionality is a good thing
  857. # [21:58] <TabAtkins> Something which acts as if it's a bottom layer, rather than being composed of other things.
  858. # [21:58] <SamB_MacG5> the __methods__ are, yes
  859. # [21:58] <TabAtkins> Being able to divide functionality *is* good. It's not an unrestricted good, of course - it often hurts performance.
  860. # [21:59] <SamB_MacG5> otherwise, the protocols are not part of Python
  861. # [21:59] <jgraham> Anyway to me the "bedrock" post sounds like second system syndrome
  862. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> Which is why precomposed versions of things are good - you can optimize them, even though they're not bottom-level.
  863. # [21:59] <SamB_MacG5> they are just applied late-binding
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  866. # [21:59] <jgraham> On the other hand, I do think the Web Components project is interesting and potentially useful
  867. # [21:59] <Hixie> TabAtkins: nah, i disagree. it's way more subtle than that. you have to balance api usability, security, performance, efficiency -- all these things lead to finding a balance and does not at all lead to always suggesting that the best API is the one that can be ultimately decomposed.
  868. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> Hixie: The funny thing, we'd argue the opposite. This is an attempt to take an elephantine, feature-laden monstrosity and bake it back down into a number of small, elegant systems.
  869. # [22:00] <SamB_MacG5> TabAtkins: you want small but powerful primitives ("system calls"), from which the rest can be built ("userspace code")
  870. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Of course. I wouldn't argue that decomposability is an absolute good that must be preserved at all costs.
  871. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> But it is *a* good, and one which should not be understated.
  872. # [22:00] <jgraham> If it doesn't follow the trajectory of the last three attempts to do the same thing
  873. # [22:00] <Hixie> TabAtkins: sounds like you are arguing exactly that :-)
  874. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Only because you're attempting to distill an absolutist philosophy from what I'm saying. ^_^
  875. # [22:01] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i tend to do that when someone just says "you're wrong" :-P
  876. # [22:01] <SamB_MacG5> TabAtkins: with the goal being to have more user-servicable parts
  877. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> I was able to jump straight to that because I've butted heads with you on similar things in the past, where you've dismissed the value of decomposability in what I felt was far too cavalier a fashion.
  878. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> SamB_MacG5: Yes.
  879. # [22:02] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i think it's fine to argue from use cases, and the uses cases might lead to an API based on small components, or they might lead to an "elephantine" API that wraps lots of "magic" into a simple performant API that isn't particularly flexible
  880. # [22:02] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i think it's a mistake to just assume that small components are better though
  881. # [22:02] * Quits: Benvie (~brandon@cpe-174-097-187-248.nc.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  882. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> Hixie: My first impulse is always to develop what I want the final API to look like, then look for ways to break it down. Occasionally you can't, and need to stay high-level with hidden functionality. But you usually can, and it's usually a good idea.
  883. # [22:02] <jgraham> (It is also kind of funny that you are arguing this point and rniwa and abarth are insisting that WebKit will never allow APIs with JS<->C++ cycles i.e. will block any attempt to add native-backed js-like APIs to the platform)
  884. # [22:03] <abarth> hi
  885. # [22:03] <TabAtkins> jgraham: That's not contradictory. It just means that we have multiple forces pulling on us.
  886. # [22:03] <abarth> i feel like i'm missing context
  887. # [22:04] <jgraham> TabAtkins: That sounds contradictory to me :)
  888. # [22:04] <abarth> jgraham: there might well be a difference between what TabAtkins wants to design and what we're actually able to build
  889. # [22:04] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i think where we disagree is that you're willing to assume that it's a good idea until proved otherwise, whereas i'm more likely to try to keep the API as simple as possible until decomposition is proved necessary.
  890. # [22:04] <jgraham> abarth: Sure
  891. # [22:04] <Hixie> TabAtkins: which is to say, i prioritise simplicity of the API for the use cases over flexibility of the API for unexpected use cases, and you vice versa.
  892. # [22:05] <SamB_MacG5> Hixie: both are important
  893. # [22:05] <Hixie> SamB_MacG5: yes, though they are often at odds
  894. # [22:06] <SamB_MacG5> which is why APIs tend to have layers
  895. # [22:07] <dglazkov> Hixie: I think you understood the difference wrong. The basic tenet of Bedrock post is that for each feature HTML, you should expect a developer to come by and say: "Hey, that's cool! How do I do the same thing, but slightly differently. How do I do that?"
  896. # [22:07] <dglazkov> remember our debates about whether it's useful to have a progress element auto-orients?
  897. # [22:07] <jgraham> (also making this a point about *DOM* specifically is a bit odd. For example if you were building the web from the ground up you might let developers write custom CSS properties in javascript. But I don't think anyone is proposing that)
  898. # [22:08] <SamB_MacG5> jgraham: hmm ... now you've got me imagining use cases ...
  899. # [22:08] <Hixie> dglazkov: sure, that's another aspect of that post. I think the answer to that question should often be "don't", though, which is another way in which i disagree with slightlyoff a lot :-)
  900. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> abarth: It would probably be good to have you review some of the shadow DOM stuff. ^_^
  901. # [22:08] <SamB_MacG5> but the implementation would involve a lot of new API
  902. # [22:08] <astearns> jgraham: aren't some polyfills "custom CSS properties in javascript"?
  903. # [22:09] <jgraham> astearns: In some limited sense I guess
  904. # [22:09] <dglazkov> Hixie: don't is the answer you can't give
  905. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yup, when you say "don't", the usual response is "okay, I'll do it myself in JS and ignore your shitty native stuff".
  906. # [22:09] <SamB_MacG5> hmm, actually, sounds like a nightmare for the CSS WG
  907. # [22:09] <abarth> TabAtkins: happy to look at it
  908. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> abarth: dglazkov would know well what the prickly parts probably are.
  909. # [22:10] <Hixie> dglazkov, TabAtkins: people do bad stuff on the web all the time, but we _certainly_ shouldn't optimise the APIs to help them do so.
  910. # [22:10] <jgraham> But I don't think you can e.g. implement your own display: values in a sensible way that interacts with all the other values
  911. # [22:10] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-58-197.dynamic.qsc.de) (Quit: Leaving)
  912. # [22:10] <SamB_MacG5> maybe some kind of user-use namespace for CSS properties, with no support for complicated grammars?
  913. # [22:11] <jgraham> and if you did want do do that I guess you would need to expose a crazy amount of internal state of the layout engine
  914. # [22:11] <Hixie> darobin: what's the context behind https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18223 ? i'm confused as to why you marked it invalid without even the boilerplate, is it something you know was filed by mistake or something?
  915. # [22:11] <astearns> jgraham: I agree for some value of "sensible" - you can throw a non-sensible amount of javascript towards creating a bespoke layout mode
  916. # [22:11] <jgraham> And you don't want to do that
  917. # [22:11] <jgraham> So we don't support display:function() {}
  918. # [22:11] <dglazkov> Hixie: re: meter/progress <-- I bet you couldn't foresee these scenarios: http://chemicaloliver.net/internet/styling-the-html5-meter-tag-using-the-shadow-dom/
  919. # [22:12] <jgraham> astearns: Yeah, but that's faking it
  920. # [22:12] <TabAtkins> Right. I think we should expose better primitives for layout, but exactly how far down we go is an important question.
  921. # [22:12] <jgraham> I mean you run your script after all the native layout has happened
  922. # [22:12] <SamB_MacG5> jgraham: more to the point, layout engines change ...
  923. # [22:12] <SamB_MacG5> or, well, not more
  924. # [22:12] <Hixie> dglazkov: we absolutely considered that use case. That's exactly what XBL2 was intended to allow, and what Web Components will allow
  925. # [22:12] <TabAtkins> jgraham: For example, I have a sketch of adding constraints to abspos that lets you do a *lot* of layout with minimal script interaction.
  926. # [22:13] <dglazkov> Hixie: not if you had that crazy magic with auto-rotation depending on width/height ratio
  927. # [22:13] <Hixie> dglazkov: yes, even with that.
  928. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> Heh, relevant quote from a few minutes ago, on an unrelated G+ comment:
  929. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> That would certainly be useful -- as it is there's an enormous cliff between "I got something simple working in CSS" and "I had to ditch the whole bloody thing and rewrite it by hand because I couldn't get control over one little thing"...
  930. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> ^^^ Quote from Joel Webber
  931. # [22:13] <Hixie> dglazkov: the rotation is implemented by the default binding, so providing a new binding lets you do whatever rotation you want.
  932. # [22:13] <astearns> heh
  933. # [22:13] <jgraham> TabAtkins: But that isn't really the "bedrock" philosphy. You're not allowing users to inject script into the layout lifecycle, or subclass display schemes
  934. # [22:13] * Quits: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251) (Remote host closed the connection)
  935. # [22:14] <SamB_MacG5> jgraham: you can't provide hooks for *everything*
  936. # [22:14] <jgraham> You're proposing a much more limited set of powers that has the practical advantage of being implemntable
  937. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> jgraham: There's a gradient from "write it in assembly" to "just use this predefined element".
  938. # [22:14] <Hixie> dglazkov: (in fact i would say that's a great example of why the way webkit implemented meter is wrong)
  939. # [22:14] <dglazkov> Hixie: see quote above from Joel. To get rid of auto-rotation, you have _rewrite_the_whole_thing_
  940. # [22:15] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Hence my point about philosophy quickly crumbling against the rigours of reality
  941. # [22:15] <Hixie> dglazkov: no, you only have to rewrite the rendering.
  942. # [22:15] <Hixie> dglazkov: that's the whole point of web components (specifically, css-bound web components)
  943. # [22:15] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  944. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Obviously, the correct answer isn't always "expose the lowest-level thing all the time". However, it *is* correct to seek out the lowest-level thing you can reasonably expose, rather than just stopping once you've created something which solves the use-cases presented.
  945. # [22:16] <Hixie> the lowest-level thing you can _reasonably_ expose _is_ what you're created that solves the use cases presented. :-)
  946. # [22:16] <jgraham> I don't think that's true
  947. # [22:16] <jgraham> Ah, Hixie beat me
  948. # [22:16] <jgraham> It's not like it's *hard* to think of use cases
  949. # [22:16] <TabAtkins> Hixie: That's wrong. There are always use-cases that weren't presented to you. Finding a spanning set of primitives often works better than exactly solving the use-cases you happened to see.
  950. # [22:17] <astearns> I'm with Tab - the use cases presented are almost always the tip of the iceberg
  951. # [22:17] <SamB_MacG5> Hixie: some specs don't expose the thing, though
  952. # [22:17] <Hixie> TabAtkins: as spec editor it is one's job to seek out such use cases
  953. # [22:17] <TabAtkins> *Then* you define things on top of those primitives that exactly solve those use-cases.
  954. # [22:17] <SamB_MacG5> they just use it internally
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  956. # [22:17] <TabAtkins> Hixie: As a spec editor who thinks he does his job well, I always find more use-cases after the fact.
  957. # [22:17] <jgraham> But with e.g. Shadow DOM the problem has *never* been lack of use cases
  958. # [22:18] <jgraham> We have known for more than a decade that there were use cases that needed that sort of capability
  959. # [22:18] <Hixie> TabAtkins: in my experience, when i find use cases after the fact, they would rarely have been solved by my taking a more decomposed approach -- because you can't know how to decompose it if you don't know what the use cases are.
  960. # [22:18] <SamB_MacG5> jgraham: well, yeah; the Mozilla sources are full of them ;-)
  961. # [22:19] <jgraham> The problem has always been finding something that is simple enough to get cross-browser implemntations
  962. # [22:19] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Sometimes, sure. However, small tweaks from the existing use-cases are often easy if you did a decomposed approach (because you can more easily slot in the small change you want), and extending the solution later is often easy as well, for the same reason.
  963. # [22:20] <jgraham> So if you want it to succeed, you should prioritise simplicity of implementation over flexibility, subject to the constraint that you still meet (the most significant) use cases
  964. # [22:20] <TabAtkins> I mean, don't decompose too early or too aggressively, because there are always multiple ways to do it, and it can be hard to tell which way is best. But keep it in mind, and as patterns emerge, break ti down.
  965. # [22:20] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Often, breaking things down aids simplicity of implementation, because each piece is simpler.
  966. # [22:21] <TabAtkins> (Though often the total complexity is somewhat higher.)
  967. # [22:21] <SamB_MacG5> I guess you should try to decompose in a way that simplifies implementation?
  968. # [22:21] <Hixie> TabAtkins: sure, you should definitely design features to fit all the use cases, included use cases taht you come up with that are small tweaks of previous ones.
  969. # [22:21] <jgraham> TabAtkins: That doesn't obviously follow
  970. # [22:21] <jgraham> But my main point stands
  971. # [22:22] <SamB_MacG5> it's simpler to make progress in implementing something that's decomposed:
  972. # [22:22] <jgraham> Which is that if I were designing this feature I would be prepared to compromise on flexibility whereever it aided implementability
  973. # [22:22] <SamB_MacG5> you implement a piece that doesn't depend on any pieces you don't have yet
  974. # [22:22] <TabAtkins> SamB_MacG5: Yes, that's often the right thing to do, I think. If you find the cleave points in the implementation, it's usually better for overall performance when you reuse individual bits.
  975. # [22:22] <Hixie> TabAtkins: my point is that you shouldn't prematurely decompose when doing so is _not_ necessary to address use cases, because (a) that makes the API more complicated, (b) it's not necessary (by definition), and (c) it likely doesn't address the unknown use cases, and in fact, can preclude addressing them due to over-designing (it's easier to shift direction later if you haven't over-decomposed)
  976. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I agree with you. I believe we simply disagree on when it's "premature".
  977. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> Based on the types of APIs that we make in Parkour, and the types of APIs that you make in HTML. ^_^
  978. # [22:23] <Hixie> my definition is easy: you do the minimum necessary to address all the use cases
  979. # [22:23] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Really? e.g. slightlyoff's example of being able to reuse <canvas> to customise drawing of form controls doesn't seem like it would make anything easier or more performant
  980. # [22:23] <SamB_MacG5> Hixie: it could make the API more complicated, sure; but it might make it simpler to understand or implement
  981. # [22:24] <jgraham> (or rahter 2D context, I guess)
  982. # [22:24] <Hixie> SamB_MacG5: ease of implementation is a lower priority than ease of usability (because there's like 4 groups of implementors, and millions of authors.)
  983. # [22:24] <SamB_MacG5> Hixie: but understanding is something the users use
  984. # [22:24] <Hixie> SamB_MacG5: authors
  985. # [22:24] <Hixie> SamB_MacG5: but yes, and simpler APIs tend to be simpler to understand.
  986. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> Hixie: However, implementation often guides you to the correct cleave points for performance.
  987. # [22:25] <Hixie> SamB_MacG5: just compare HTML (high-level composed features) to XBL (very decomposed featureset) :-)
  988. # [22:25] <SamB_MacG5> Hixie: you'll have to excuse me when I say "user" when I mean "programmer"; I hang out in *nix circles ;-)
  989. # [22:25] <Hixie> TabAtkins: decomposition is _definitely_ not the way to get higher performance for hte common case (though it can lead to higher performance for the more unusual cases)
  990. # [22:26] <Hixie> SamB_MacG5: in web circles, user=the reader, author=the programmer, implementor=the browser vendor
  991. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> Yes, I've already stated that. Decomposing can hurt performance, which is why you should also provide precomposed versions that you can black-box optimize.
  992. # [22:26] <SamB_MacG5> anyway, I like legos
  993. # [22:26] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i think we're more or less in agreement, we just tend to apply this all quite differently
  994. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> That's what I've been saying. ^_^
  995. # [22:27] <Hixie> TabAtkins: and somehow i'm happier with what we have overall than you :-P
  996. # [22:27] <Hixie> anyone understand https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17936 ?
  997. # [22:28] <jgraham> Hixie: I understand that it should be resolved INVALID for deviation from the English language as we know it
  998. # [22:29] <Hixie> just a minute, buzz for deviation?
  999. # [22:29] <Ms2ger> ^
  1000. # [22:29] <jgraham> :)
  1001. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> How would you write the gerund of "arc"?
  1002. # [22:29] <Hixie> man i miss that show
  1003. # [22:29] <Ms2ger> It's still on ;)
  1004. # [22:29] <Hixie> yeah, but there's no podcast
  1005. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> "arcing"?
  1006. # [22:29] <jgraham> There is iplayer
  1007. # [22:29] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  1008. # [22:29] <Hixie> really?
  1009. # [22:29] <Hixie> oooh...
  1010. # [22:29] <Hixie> i may have to hook myself up a manual podcast
  1011. # [22:30] <Hixie> they VERY OCCASIONALLY put it on the comedy of the week podcast
  1012. # [22:30] <Ms2ger> "Listen now (3 days left)"
  1013. # [22:30] <Hixie> they put the indian one recently on
  1014. # [22:30] <jgraham> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01mqmsb
  1015. # [22:30] <Ms2ger> When they were in India? That's ages ago! :)
  1016. # [22:30] <Hixie> yeah, that was a while back
  1017. # [22:31] <Hixie> that's the last one they had on though
  1018. # [22:31] <Hixie> ("recently" as in "in the past 2 years")
  1019. # [22:31] <jgraham> It wasn't *that* long ago
  1020. # [22:32] * SamB_MacG5 closes that as NEEDSINFO, on the theory that they could get someone to help them with their english
  1021. # [22:32] * SamB_MacG5 has no idea why he's allowed to do that
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  1023. # [22:33] <jgraham> FWIW I think the point of the bug was that they want HTML to be simple for distributing textual information or something
  1024. # [22:33] <SamB_MacG5> that is certainly a goal
  1025. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> And is luckily already met! RESOLVED WORKSFORME
  1026. # [22:34] <SamB_MacG5> shouldn't do that unless you can actually understand the message ;-)
  1027. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the current resolution is the best one. ^_^
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The end :)