/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-09-27 / end

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  26. # [01:05] <zewt> why am I being postincremented
  27. # [01:05] <zewt> do I look like an lvalue
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  29. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> ...yes?
  30. # [01:13] <zewt> Hixie: you must know that nothing will stop programmers from offering solutions to problems; it's sort of in our nature :)
  31. # [01:13] <Hixie> and nothing will force me to pay attention to them :-P
  32. # [01:13] <Hixie> (at least not until the problem has been established)
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  42. # [02:04] <annevk> what's the deal with using @w3c.org? my filters use @w3.org :/
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  47. # [02:12] <TabAtkins> What mail is coming from w3c.org?
  48. # [02:12] <annevk> public-webapps email
  49. # [02:13] <annevk> nn
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  55. # [02:29] <tiglionabbit> how can you tell the difference between a user dragging a file or a folder into the browser?
  56. # [02:29] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|brb
  57. # [02:29] <tiglionabbit> in either case, event.dataTransfer.items[0].kind == "file"
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  79. # [03:23] <jamesr> oh wise wizards, consider this test: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1805
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  82. # [03:24] <jamesr> i can write a selector to match the span with id ":foo" by \ escaping, but querySelector("#\:foo") barfs in firefox/chrome/opera. TabAtkins thinks this is just a bug in querySelector which i tend to agree with but does anyone know of a good reason for the current behavior before i file a batch o' bugs?
  83. # [03:24] <jamesr> i get really suspicious when i see a seemingly bizarre behavior that has good interop
  84. # [03:24] <TabAtkins> I'll support myself and say that, no, there's no reason, and it's definitely a bug.
  85. # [03:25] <TabAtkins> Note that this interop is probably on something very bad for authors, since it's an exception rather than being silently ignored, and there's no way around it. (Omitting the escaping slash has the same effect.)
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  87. # [03:26] <jamesr> even ie9 throws here
  88. # [03:26] <TabAtkins> Jeez, it even fails when you do "#\3a foo".
  89. # [03:26] <jamesr> yeah it's damn picky
  90. # [03:26] <jamesr> is http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#grammar supposed to be up to date?
  91. # [03:26] <TabAtkins> I'm guessing there's an eager unescaping phase that runs before the syntax checker.
  92. # [03:26] <jamesr> it's on /TR/ so i suspect no
  93. # [03:26] <TabAtkins> Probably, yes. Worst case, check Selectors 4.
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  100. # [03:38] <Hixie> jamesr: querySelector("#\:foo") is exactly equivalent to querySelector("#:foo")
  101. # [03:38] <TabAtkins> jamesr: There is no grammar-based reason. The escaping thing is part of CSS/Selectors, and I recall there being an example of using a weird character in a selector somewhere, either in 2.1 or in Selectors.
  102. # [03:38] <Hixie> jamesr: try querySelector("#\\:foo")
  103. # [03:38] <TabAtkins> Sigh, I forgot about that. Goddam double escaping.
  104. # [03:38] <jamesr> aha!
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  106. # [03:39] * TabAtkins has memories of \\\\ in a PHP string to escape \\ in a PHP regex to select a \.
  107. # [03:39] <zewt> has any (real) language besides python attempted to solve that? heh
  108. # [03:39] <TabAtkins> You mean with Python's raw strings?
  109. # [03:39] <jamesr> writing code to deal with windows paths in any c-style language is fun
  110. # [03:40] <zewt> jamesr: it's easy. "c:/foo/bar"
  111. # [03:40] <Hixie> matching urls with regexps is fun for a similar reason -- /.../
  112. # [03:40] <TabAtkins> Most path apis accept either direction of slashes, no?
  113. # [03:40] <jamesr> yes, most. :)
  114. # [03:40] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Most decent languages (not JS ;_;) let you use different delimiters for the regex.
  115. # [03:40] <zewt> Hixie: that's why most things ... ^ that
  116. # [03:41] <jamesr> sed -e 's?check/this/out?arbitrary/delimiters/baby?'
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  120. # [03:45] <Hixie> yeah, i usually am using perl so it's no biggie once i realise the pattern is gonna contain a path/url
  121. # [03:45] <Hixie> but i often don't notice until after the first set of syntax errors :-)
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  198. # [08:31] <zcorpan> LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19087
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  200. # [08:34] <Hixie> aw man
  201. # [08:34] <Hixie> i'd better check with ben goodger to see if he agrees that it's offensive
  202. # [08:35] <Hixie> the word appears 12 times in the spec!
  203. # [08:35] * Hixie ponders just reassigning it to the htmlwg :-P
  204. # [08:37] <jgraham> Oh look, W3C are hiring someone to work on tests
  205. # [08:38] <jgraham> Or testing, I guess
  206. # [08:38] <jgraham> Seems like a nice idea, but the requirment for fluent japanese cuts down the potential candidates by a lot :)
  207. # [08:39] <jgraham> (I wonder if it is one of those things where they already know who they want for the job and have written the advert to match)
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  209. # [08:44] <heycam> I think it's more likely that they need to hire someone through Keio for whatever reason
  210. # [08:46] <heycam> I've never heard of a NZer being offended by the term kiwi before
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  212. # [08:56] <doublec> I guess it depends if the term kiwi refers to be peeled and eaten
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  216. # [09:08] <jgraham> doublec: You are saying that "I'm going to eat you like a kiwi, kiwi" is offensive, but "I'm going to eat you like a kiwi-fruit, kiwi" isn't? :p
  217. # [09:09] * Joins: isherman-book (~Adium@173-167-102-230-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  218. # [09:09] <jgraham> (or am I misunderstanding the bug? AFAICT it doesn't claim that New Zealanders are offended by "kiwi", except when it is used to denote a fruit)
  219. # [09:10] <jgraham> (which I agree doesn't make any sense)
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  221. # [09:14] <doublec> I'm not offended but I assume the bug reporter didn't like the "peel the kiwi's skin, then eat the kiwi's flesh"
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  228. # [09:41] <othermaciej> my favorite part is how an Australian is reporting that New Zealanders may be offended by the term "Kiwi"
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  232. # [09:47] <mpt> As a kiwi, I'm not offended when people talk about eating kiwis, I just hope this age of cannibalism will one day come to an end.
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  234. # [09:50] <hsivonen> at least the tag cloud example has context that suggests fruit rather than bird or people
  235. # [09:51] * Joins: nessy (~silviapf@124-168-3-236.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  236. # [09:52] <mpt> Aww, tag clouds, how very oughties
  237. # [09:52] <zcorpan> "we will encourage modularity as a preferred way to approach introducing new features into the 5.1 release."
  238. # [09:52] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@cable-146-255-148-108.dynamic.telemach.ba)
  239. # [09:52] <Ms2ger> Was the TAG involved?
  240. # [09:55] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: rniwa)
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  242. # [09:59] <annevk> no man, modularity is Team-speak for small specs
  243. # [09:59] <annevk> small specs with holes inbetween
  244. # [10:00] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.71.130.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  245. # [10:01] <annevk> I have oft wondered where that modular desire comes from. No young people talk about that stuff
  246. # [10:01] * Joins: ivan\ (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
  247. # [10:02] <Ms2ger> Should get to rec faster
  248. # [10:02] <annevk> Microsoft Program Managers?
  249. # [10:02] <zcorpan> gotta let each feature mature at its own pace and have its own community around it (i.e. 4 new mailing lists)
  250. # [10:02] <annevk> maybe the funding is per mailing list
  251. # [10:02] <zcorpan> that might explain things
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  278. # [10:53] <annevk> hehe, I think I'm about to own wtw.tf
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  283. # [11:02] * jgraham wonders what a wt is
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  291. # [11:42] <annevk> jgraham: I'm helping out dino
  292. # [11:42] <annevk> https://twitter.com/grorg/status/156849367448428545
  293. # [11:46] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  294. # [11:49] <hsivonen> since when has Opera not escaped < and > in attribute values in the innerHTML getter?
  295. # [11:53] * Quits: PalleZingmark (~Adium@217.13.228.226) (Quit: Leaving.)
  296. # [11:56] <zcorpan> hsivonen: about since http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2362&to=2363
  297. # [11:57] <annevk> nice URL there
  298. # [11:59] * attiks is now known as attiks|away
  299. # [12:00] <zcorpan> hsivonen: iirc that page does something unusually stupid like eval()ing the innerHTML of an <a href=javascript:...> or some such, which didn't work when we escaped <> (and nobody else escaped them *for href=javascript:*)
  300. # [12:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan: we have a bug about the UI for a dark-matter Cisco appliance breaking because we stopped escaping <>
  301. # [12:01] <hsivonen> I gather it tries to parse innerHTML output as XML
  302. # [12:01] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok. i guess we're screwed either way :-(
  303. # [12:01] <hsivonen> Don’t worry, your network is safe with Cisco.
  304. # [12:02] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-222.net-80-236-80.issy.rev.numericable.fr) (Quit: Leaving.)
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  306. # [12:08] <hsivonen> by quick black-box testing, it seems the WebKit special case applies if the attribute reflects as URL and the URL has the scheme javascript
  307. # [12:10] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  308. # [12:16] <zcorpan> yeah i recall something along those lines as well. old gecko something similar.
  309. # [12:17] <annevk> I wonder who's going to edit XHR for the W3C
  310. # [12:19] <zcorpan> hsivonen: which attribute does cisco use here?
  311. # [12:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: DOMParser barfs on <operator name="<" value="LESS_THAN"></operator>
  312. # [12:30] <hsivonen> this would be a non-issue if DOMParser did XML5
  313. # [12:32] <hsivonen> they have a massive “XML” island inside <xml>…</xml>
  314. # [12:32] <zcorpan> ok and the other page expected not-escaping for <a href=javascript:> (iirc)
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  316. # [12:35] <jgraham> hsivonen: OOI, what are your travel plans for TPAC?
  317. # [12:40] <hsivonen> jgraham: plane from Helsinki to CDG, TGV from CDG to Lyon Part-Dieu
  318. # [12:41] <hsivonen> arrival on Sunday, leaving on Saturday
  319. # [12:41] <jgraham> OK
  320. # [12:42] * jgraham is doing Test The Web Forward in Paris on the Friday/Saturday and so will also travel by train on the Sunday
  321. # [12:42] <hsivonen> this Cisco thing seems to expect there are three browsers: IE, Firefox and Safari
  322. # [12:42] * smaug____ will be in Lyon also Sun-Sat
  323. # [12:43] <smaug____> hsivonen: fun
  324. # [12:43] <smaug____> hsivonen: thanks for looking the issue
  325. # [12:43] <hsivonen> smaug____: now we need to decide what to do about it
  326. # [12:43] <hsivonen> which is harder
  327. # [12:43] <jgraham> Someone should do a list like http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/ but for web browsers
  328. # [12:43] <annevk> jgraham: how much is the train?
  329. # [12:43] <annevk> I guess I could fly into Paris and then fly back from Lyon
  330. # [12:44] <jgraham> annevk: That probably depends, it's the last bit that I haven't booked
  331. # [12:44] <hsivonen> annevk: depends on time of day
  332. # [12:44] <jgraham> Seems to be somewhere in the range of 35-60 eur
  333. # [12:44] <darobin> the train can be relatively cheap if you book it ahead
  334. # [12:44] <annevk> ah okay
  335. # [12:44] <darobin> it's 2h — prolly shorter than flying to Lyon
  336. # [12:45] <darobin> (all told)
  337. # [12:45] <hsivonen> also, Lyon Part-Dieu has the airport code XYD
  338. # [12:45] <smaug____> hsivonen: I hate special cases
  339. # [12:45] <hsivonen> for plane-train bundle tickets
  340. # [12:45] <smaug____> hsivonen: so I like the current behavior
  341. # [12:45] <hsivonen> but I didn’t know that when I booked
  342. # [12:45] <darobin> hsivonen: you mean Lyon Saint-Exupéry — Part-Dieu is the train station
  343. # [12:45] * darobin bbiab
  344. # [12:46] <hsivonen> smaug____: I like the current behavior, too
  345. # [12:46] <hsivonen> darobin: the airport is LYS
  346. # [12:47] <hsivonen> darobin: that magic code is for use for CDG–XYD train when bought through Air France ticketing
  347. # [12:47] <SimonSapin> Paris-Lyon by plane, you would spend as much time in the airports than in the air. The TGV train is 2h but you just have to get there a few minutes before.
  348. # [12:47] <hsivonen> also, TGV from CDG is cheaper than taxi from Saint-Exupéry to city center
  349. # [12:48] <annevk> "People’s names are all mapped in Unicode code points." is interesting
  350. # [12:48] <annevk> (that statement is false per the link from jgraham, fwiw)
  351. # [12:48] * Joins: PalleZingmark (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
  352. # [12:48] <hsivonen> annevk: cruel parents in this day and age, IMO, in that case
  353. # [12:48] <smaug____> silly me, I have flight from Paris to Lyon. Didn't know the train would be that much better.
  354. # [12:49] <SimonSapin> annevk: does that mean that Unicode needs more characters?
  355. # [12:50] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: no. Then parents who want to be special would invent something new that’s unique on not in Unicode
  356. # [12:50] <annevk> I don't know what it means
  357. # [12:50] * Quits: auchenberg (~auchenber@176.222.239.226) (Remote host closed the connection)
  358. # [12:50] <hsivonen> I’m pretty sure it means Han/Kanji names that are deliberately an unconventional combination of quill strokes to be unique
  359. # [12:51] <annevk> probably that the world is odd and full of unknown things, lots of which is created by us
  360. # [12:51] <smaug____> hsivonen: I wonder which all attributes webkit escapes
  361. # [12:51] <jgraham> Also consider the artist sometimes known as prince
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  363. # [12:59] * Zauberfisch_ is now known as Zauberfisch
  364. # [13:05] <darobin> hsivonen: ah, of course — I obviously never go through AF to get a train ride here :)
  365. # [13:06] <darobin> smaug____: if you're already on a flight and just connecting through Paris, then doing the last leg on a flight is okay
  366. # [13:07] <darobin> it's mostly shorter if you're in Paris, since the train is centre to centre
  367. # [13:07] <hsivonen> darobin: properly ticketed train is CDG to Lyon center
  368. # [13:08] <darobin> hsivonen: I know, but in that case I doubt it comes out shorter than flying to SaintEx (or by much of a diff)
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  370. # [13:09] <hsivonen> shorter might not be the only thing to optimize
  371. # [13:10] * hsivonen traveled from Finland to Switzerland and back without flying this summer
  372. # [13:10] <darobin> having gone from Grenoble to Å on a train, I can't easily disagree
  373. # [13:11] <hsivonen> the only part that was worse than a plane was Baltic buses from the worse company
  374. # [13:11] * Joins: richt_ (~richt@pat-tazdevil.opera.com)
  375. # [13:11] <hsivonen> (Baltic buses from the better company were better than plane)
  376. # [13:12] <darobin> heh
  377. # [13:12] <darobin> in my case we had a problem with the two boats that did the last leg having rammed one another in the port, and so being routed through another boat that went to the north of the Lofoten
  378. # [13:13] <darobin> which in turn went through a massive storm during fish migration period
  379. # [13:13] <hsivonen> Better company: http://www.luxexpress.eu/en Worse company: http://ecolines.net/en/
  380. # [13:13] <darobin> fish migration means that you can use sonar, which can be problematic when there are reefs
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  382. # [13:13] <darobin> so the boat had to make way using spotlights — it took a while
  383. # [13:13] <darobin> I thoroughly enjoyed it though — but I think other passengers would've preferred to fly ;)
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  386. # [13:18] <annevk> hmm, maybe I should finally add chunked to XHR
  387. # [13:18] <annevk> either that or work on that query API
  388. # [13:23] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  389. # [13:23] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1807
  390. # [13:25] <zcorpan> smaug____: ^
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  393. # [13:28] <zcorpan> maybe only a few of those need to be supported, since javascript: doesn't work in most places anyway (at least in opera)
  394. # [13:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan: supports my hypothesis of what the rule is
  395. # [13:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
  396. # [13:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: except <html manifest> doesn't have a reflecting IDL attribute
  397. # [13:29] <hsivonen> oh
  398. # [13:30] <zcorpan> well... per spec... webkit has one
  399. # [13:31] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@173.243.46.194)
  400. # [13:31] <zcorpan> that reflects as a URL
  401. # [13:33] <annevk> why did they add one? :/
  402. # [13:34] <annevk> hmm
  403. # [13:35] <zcorpan> i think innerHTML should use a fixed list instead of hooking in to "reflecting"... like: a href, iframe src, form action, frame src
  404. # [13:36] <zcorpan> or just a href if that's enough for compat
  405. # [13:37] <zcorpan> unfortunately this issue is hard to get compat data on
  406. # [13:41] <smaug____> I think innerHTML shouldn't escape
  407. # [13:41] <smaug____> if IE doesn't escape
  408. # [13:42] <zcorpan> if you evang Cisco, WFM :-)
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  415. # [14:03] <AryehGregor> And everyone with outdated Cisco firmware, too?
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  443. # [15:30] <annevk> seems nobody ever replied to other browsers being interested in chunked
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  446. # [15:41] <annevk> btw
  447. # [15:41] <annevk> I don't like "Creating" for URLs at all
  448. # [15:41] <annevk> I want "Parsing"; what do I call what is named "parse" now?
  449. # [15:41] <annevk> the sweet generic "process"?
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  458. # [16:15] <zewt> "Sorry but it is not late. The spec is still a working draft" ... heh
  459. # [16:17] * attiks|away is now known as attiks
  460. # [16:24] <zewt> annevk: should the "remove any leading and trailing..." step be in create or parse? currently it seems like url = new URL(" http://foo.com "); may have a different result than url.href = " http://foo.com ";
  461. # [16:25] <annevk> I think it should be added to setting .href too
  462. # [16:25] <zewt> annevk: also the URL ctor doesn't define the case where base is a DOMString rather than a URL
  463. # [16:25] <zewt> in what case wouldn't you want it in parse?
  464. # [16:25] <annevk> setting pathname
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  466. # [16:25] <annevk> zewt: I thought it did define that
  467. # [16:26] <zewt> it's probably somewhere else
  468. # [16:26] <zewt> oh yeah creating only deals with URL base so I imagine that's wherever the actual ctor is defined
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  472. # [16:29] <annevk> I'll fix setting .href and rename Create to Parse and Parse to Process
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  475. # [16:31] <zewt> annevk: btw. in encoding's "Unless stated otherwise emitting an encoder error", that might want to say something like "unless stated otherwise by the caller"; i interpreted that as "unless stated otherwise in the place that says emit an encoder error"
  476. # [16:31] <zcorpan> won't that result in more Process discussions?
  477. # [16:31] <annevk> zcorpan: what?
  478. # [16:32] <zewt> i think that was a joke :)
  479. # [16:32] <annevk> oh :)
  480. # [16:32] * annevk is looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parser for a better word
  481. # [16:33] <zewt> (it would be nice for things that affect algorithm flow to be a part of the algorithm, instead of redefining things like "emit an encoder algorithm" externally, so the code paths of the spec are self-contained when possible)
  482. # [16:33] <annevk> maybe "interpret"?
  483. # [16:33] <zewt> annevk: it doesn't look like you'd ever (or very rarely) want to invoke the "parse" url algorithm from outside of the spec (you'd only use create), so that doesn't necessarily need to be short and sweet
  484. # [16:34] <zewt> eg. "update the URL state from the string..." or whatever
  485. # [16:34] <zewt> off to work, later
  486. # [16:35] <annevk> hmm, not sure if longer makes it better, but feel free to do a pull request :)
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  603. # [20:32] <Yuhong> On legacy color parsing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4581362
  604. # [20:32] <Yuhong> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8318911/why-does-html-think-chucknorris-is-a-color
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  607. # [20:34] <annevk> even on stackoverflow and ycombinator people don't bother to read the spec
  608. # [20:34] <miketaylr> s/even/especially/
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  680. # [23:37] <krijn> annevk: y u no in #fronteers ? ;(
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  697. # Session Close: Fri Sep 28 00:00:00 2012

The end :)