/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-09-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 28 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  33. # [00:53] <Hixie> anyone know if there's an animated gif spec, or something that passes for such a spec, anywhere?
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  37. # [01:02] <Hixie> is http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2818.txt the HTTPS spec?
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  40. # [01:05] <jsbell> hixie: googling for "gif89a" suggests http://www.w3.org/Graphics/GIF/spec-gif89a.txt which seems reasonable (compuserve 1990). No idea if anyone has documented modern browser handling of the beasts, though.
  41. # [01:05] <Yuhong> Anyway, I am on StackOverflow and just posted a link to the spec as an answer.
  42. # [01:05] <Yuhong> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8318911/why-does-html-think-chucknorris-is-a-color/12630675#12630675
  43. # [01:07] <Hixie> jsbell: doesn't look like it specs the animated pars
  44. # [01:07] <Hixie> parts
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  46. # [01:07] <Hixie> jsbell: at least not all the netscape extensions
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  49. # [01:12] <jsbell> Huh; I didn't realize that looping was an extension.
  50. # [01:13] <jsbell> hixie: knowing the term "application extension" leads me to http://www.matthewflickinger.com/lab/whatsinagif/
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  52. # [01:14] <jsbell> which leads to http://odur.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg/gif/netscape.html - a reasonable spec-like description of the NETSCAPE2.0 extension...
  53. # [01:14] <zewt> . o ( still dreaming of a css style to stop gif animation )
  54. # [01:15] <zewt> also horrifying fact of my week: ios safari (seemingly randomly) caches xhr POSTs : |
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  56. # [01:20] <Yuhong> And on document.all, it is unfortunate that DOM1 became a REC just as Netscape "Mariner" was being cancelled.
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  58. # [01:20] <Hixie> jsbell: thanks
  59. # [01:20] <Hixie> jsbell: i guess i'll go with that, it's better than nothing!
  60. # [01:21] <jsbell> worth what you paid for it.
  61. # [01:22] <Hixie> :-)
  62. # [01:22] <Yuhong> Which caused IE to gain market share.
  63. # [01:23] <Yuhong> To the point where other browsers had to implement document.all
  64. # [01:24] <Yuhong> And leaving no browser that supports both document.layers and document.getElementById.
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  187. # [09:07] <zcorpan> sigh. i want to demo incremental rendering and have problems with php flush thing not working :-(
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  190. # [09:12] <hsivonen> <?php ob_flush(); flush(); ob_flush(); sleep(3); ?>
  191. # [09:12] <hsivonen> that works for me
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  194. # [09:25] <zcorpan> doens't appear to work for me. http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/html/incremental-ajax-iframe/slow-load.php
  195. # [09:25] <zcorpan> i get chunked encoding but no incremental rendering
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  199. # [09:31] * zcorpan gives up
  200. # [09:32] <annevk> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/page-loading/incremental/002.cgi?mime=text%2Fhtml&delay=1&repeats=100 doesn't work either for me
  201. # [09:32] <annevk> I wonder if browsers changed their rendering model maybe
  202. # [09:34] <annevk> actually, that one kinda does work
  203. # [09:34] <annevk> just wasn't waiting long enough
  204. # [09:34] <annevk> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/page-loading/incremental/002.cgi?mime=text%2Fhtml&delay=1&repeats=20 makes it easier
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  207. # [09:42] <hsivonen> argh. Opera on Linux is a pain to use with a non-QWERTY keyboard layout
  208. # [09:43] <hsivonen> it triggers keyboard shortcuts based on the hardware keycodes rather than the baked letters
  209. # [09:43] <hsivonen> just opening it for test cases is super-annoying, because ctrl-l and ctrl-v don’t work
  210. # [09:44] <zcorpan> annevk: a script with an alert doesn't run until the end so it's not just rendering
  211. # [09:44] <hsivonen> I guess this is what you get when you bypass the toolkits on Linux
  212. # [09:44] <annevk> I meant that in a broad way, but yeah, I should have said page loading
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  223. # [10:14] <[tm]> hello friends
  224. # [10:15] * Quits: Druide_ (~Druid@p5B05C4F2.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  225. # [10:15] <[tm]> back from my triumphant European tour 2012
  226. # [10:15] <annevk> mike[tm] 2012!!1!!
  227. # [10:16] <[tm]> heh
  228. # [10:16] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@62.249.246.74)
  229. # [10:16] <[tm]> hsivonen: planning to work on some validator bugs
  230. # [10:17] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  231. # [10:17] <hsivonen> [tm]: cool!
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  236. # [10:28] <jgraham> [tm]: Did you sell t-shirts with the venues and dates on the back?
  237. # [10:30] <annevk> which reminds me, is that Docxs t-shirt made yet?
  238. # [10:30] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-222.net-80-236-80.issy.rev.numericable.fr) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  239. # [10:30] <jgraham> Yeah, did you order one?
  240. # [10:31] <annevk> I thought I did
  241. # [10:31] <jgraham> OK, odinho is in charge
  242. # [10:31] <jgraham> Ask him
  243. # [10:31] <odinho> annevk: Yeah, I have one for you at my desk.
  244. # [10:31] <odinho> annevk: But you haven't been visiting me much lately :-(
  245. # [10:32] <odinho> 09:32 < hsivonen> argh. Opera on Linux is a pain to use with a non-QWERTY keyboard layout <---- only next.
  246. # [10:33] <odinho> hsivonen: It's a very well known bug, I'm using dvorak myself, so I get totally tripped up. :]
  247. # [10:34] <odinho> hsivonen: You can use F8 instead of CTRL+L
  248. # [10:34] <odinho> hsivonen: Or if you just want to go to an URL, just middle-click in the middle of a page (not over a textarea), it will go to the url by itself.
  249. # [10:34] <[tm]> jgraham: yeah but I spent all the proceeds on hash in Amsterdam
  250. # [10:40] * Peter` is now known as beverloo`
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  258. # [10:53] <hsivonen> odinho: good to know it’s known. thanks
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  272. # [11:38] * [tm] only just now discovers https://github.com/whatwg
  273. # [11:38] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
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  278. # [12:05] <annevk> [tm]: since all web developers appear to be on github, seemed nice to have the web standards there too
  279. # [12:05] <danbri> might as well move all websites there too
  280. # [12:05] <annevk> some do
  281. # [12:10] <jgraham> google.github.com
  282. # [12:10] <[tm]> annevk: everybody except Ms2ger
  283. # [12:10] <annevk> [tm]: he is too actually, and pushed some stuff to whatwg/dom already
  284. # [12:10] <jgraham> Eventually we should just remove the .github.com suffix and wire browsers to assume that all sites are github subdomains
  285. # [12:10] <[tm]> omg
  286. # [12:10] <annevk> [tm]: with hggit it works fine for him
  287. # [12:11] <annevk> or her
  288. # [12:11] <jgraham> "it"
  289. # [12:11] <[tm]> annevk: hell hath frozen over
  290. # [12:11] <annevk> had anyone confirmed gender yet?
  291. # [12:11] <annevk> "it" works :)
  292. # [12:11] <[tm]> Ms2ger is more of a "phenomenon"
  293. # [12:11] <[tm]> a force of nature
  294. # [12:11] <annevk> danbri: we actually host the specs elsewhere, e.g. http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/
  295. # [12:11] <jgraham> annevk: I have never seen Ms2ger naked if that's what you're asking
  296. # [12:12] <[tm]> 神
  297. # [12:12] <annevk> danbri: so when github goes bankrupt we just have to upload the repository elsewhere
  298. # [12:13] <[tm]> annevk: btw have you been looking at Chris Weber's tests?
  299. # [12:13] <[tm]> URL tests
  300. # [12:13] <annevk> it appears he just converted WebKit's tests to some weird XML format
  301. # [12:13] <annevk> as far as I can tell anyway
  302. # [12:13] <annevk> so I just used those from WebKit
  303. # [12:14] <[tm]> https://github.com/cweb/iri-tests
  304. # [12:14] <[tm]> annevk: I'm pretty sure he has a bunch of tests in addition to the WebKit ones
  305. # [12:14] <annevk> okay
  306. # [12:15] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/URL links to it already
  307. # [12:16] <[tm]> OK
  308. # [12:16] <[tm]> ah yeah some tests from Julian
  309. # [12:16] <[tm]> http://greenbytes.de/tech/tc/uris/ and http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/urldecomp.xml
  310. # [12:16] * Quits: PalleZingmark (~Adium@217.13.228.226) (Quit: Leaving.)
  311. # [12:17] <annevk> so his tests don't include expected results
  312. # [12:17] <[tm]> eh?
  313. # [12:17] <[tm]> wow
  314. # [12:17] <annevk> might as well write tests from scratch then...
  315. # [12:17] <annevk> well, some do, some don't
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  317. # [12:19] <[tm]> yeah lack of expected results makes stuff pretty useless
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  319. # [12:29] <annevk> so for javascript: and data: and basically all non-hierarchical schemes you do not escape <>?# etc.
  320. # [12:29] <annevk> and you can only modify fragment
  321. # [12:29] <annevk> I guess that works
  322. # [12:30] <annevk> and the value of a javascript URL is then path[0] + fragment
  323. # [12:31] <annevk> otherwise javascript:alert('#1') would not work
  324. # [12:31] <annevk> and it does
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  333. # [12:50] <AryehGregor> annevk, props for the easy-to-remember DOM spec URL.
  334. # [12:50] <AryehGregor> (even if I'm worried Microsoft will fork it in the W3C -- couldn't you have gone with a CG?)
  335. # [12:53] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@pool-173-76-135-79.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
  336. # [12:56] <annevk> we can still publish FSA through a CG
  337. # [12:56] <annevk> through the WHATCG
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  341. # [13:03] <annevk> AryehGregor: also, I'm not a member of any CGs at the moment, I've not taken the time yet to read all the legal things around it
  342. # [13:04] <[tm]> annevk: might be worth moving over MIME-sniffing draft from https://github.com/abarth/websec to https://github.com/whatwg too
  343. # [13:04] * Joins: jarib (~jarib@unaffiliated/jarib)
  344. # [13:05] <annevk> I'll let abarth decide on that
  345. # [13:06] <annevk> I guess I can add him to /whatwg as a first step
  346. # [13:07] <annevk> [tm]: you want to be a member too? since you were editing URL at some point?
  347. # [13:08] <annevk> [tm]: also, I was wondering if we could add a box to http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url/raw-file/tip/Overview.html about it not being maintained
  348. # [13:08] <[tm]> annevk: yeah, I can add that
  349. # [13:09] <[tm]> and yeah please add me as a member and I'll copy over the current MIME sniff draft
  350. # [13:09] <[tm]> I am pretty sure abarth is not planning to work on that further
  351. # [13:10] <annevk> done
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  360. # [13:20] <annevk> anyone from Gecko around that can tell me where Gecko's javascript URL code is located?
  361. # [13:25] <[tm]> annevk: gracias
  362. # [13:25] <[tm]> annevk: oh, btw, I rememer a while back on some list that abarth was explaining that
  363. # [13:26] <annevk> bz too I think
  364. # [13:27] <[tm]> annevk: abarth was explaining about some spec not dealing with IRIs but instead with just URIs
  365. # [13:28] <[tm]> because of failure of the RFCs to actually properly define how to get a URI from an IRI
  366. # [13:28] <[tm]> do you remember reading that? if so, which list?
  367. # [13:28] <[tm]> I been looking for it but can't remember where it was
  368. # [13:29] <SimonSapin> [tm]: this? http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3987#section-3.1
  369. # [13:30] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2010Nov/0317.html is the one I was talking about
  370. # [13:30] <annevk> [tm]: dunno, but I know browsers have one URL code path
  371. # [13:31] <annevk> [tm]: and "IRI like" input gets converted to percent escaped stuff when needed
  372. # [13:31] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2010Nov/0317.html is the one where bz explains some weird javascript: URL stuff
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  374. # [13:37] <annevk> hmm
  375. # [13:37] <annevk> but it gets even weirder
  376. # [13:38] <annevk> e.g. javascript:alert('%e2%84') yields some weird character while in utf-8 it's bogus
  377. # [13:38] <annevk> %e2 is the start of a three-byte sequence
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  380. # [13:40] <Ms3ger> Looks like I missed some interesting chatter earlier...
  381. # [13:40] <Ms3ger> Also, annevk, http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/src/jsurl/
  382. # [13:41] * Ms3ger wanders off again
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  385. # [14:01] <[tm]> annevk: thanks
  386. # [14:01] <[tm]> turns out http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webappsec/2012Sep/thread.html#msg5 is what I was forgetting
  387. # [14:02] <[tm]> "Interaction of CSP and IRIs " thread with bz and abarth
  388. # [14:02] <[tm]> [[
  389. # [14:02] <[tm]> Converting IRIs to URIs is a big mess. It's something that needs to
  390. # [14:02] <[tm]> be solved for the whole platform. I tried to solve it a couple years
  391. # [14:02] <[tm]> ago, but gave up.
  392. # [14:02] <[tm]> ]]
  393. # [14:02] <[tm]> et.c
  394. # [14:05] <annevk> ah yeah
  395. # [14:06] <annevk> the IDNA2008 vs IDNA2003 thing
  396. # [14:06] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@89.143.12.238)
  397. # [14:06] <annevk> UTS #46 attempted to solve that
  398. # [14:07] <AryehGregor> Is it testable whether an object's NativeBrand is "NativeError" vs. something else?
  399. # [14:07] <annevk> not looking forward to solving the IDNA problem
  400. # [14:08] <annevk> well, I can solve it, just superset IDNA2003 somehow or say IDNA2008 is the way, either way some group is going to yell
  401. # [14:09] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@119.161.158.96) (Quit: kennyluck)
  402. # [14:09] <annevk> how the fuck the IETF could ever decided to break compatibility in domain names is beyond me
  403. # [14:23] <[tm]> annevk: btw and just FYI, http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/iri/trac/report/6
  404. # [14:27] <AryehGregor> annevk, comments welcome on: http://w3c-test.org/webapps/DOMCore/tests/approved/exceptions.html
  405. # [14:27] <AryehGregor> (which I just committed)
  406. # [14:28] <AryehGregor> I can't think of anything else to test regarding exception-throwing, TBH.
  407. # [14:31] <[tm]> SimonSapin: see abarth comments in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webappsec/2012Sep/0005.html thread
  408. # [14:35] <annevk> [tm]: is that still maintained?
  409. # [14:35] <annevk> [tm]: guess I could check some of those to see if they're addressed or not
  410. # [14:37] <[tm]> annevk: that's why I suggested it
  411. # [14:37] <[tm]> not sure if it's still maintained
  412. # [14:37] <[tm]> will ask Larry
  413. # [14:38] <[tm]> annevk: do you think it would be useful to try to encourage some new discussion on the public-iri list/
  414. # [14:39] <[tm]> e.g., post a link to the current URL draft and ask for feedback?
  415. # [14:39] <annevk> I don't really plan to subscribe
  416. # [14:39] <annevk> and the www-tag discussion was kinda pointless
  417. # [14:40] <annevk> given the experience of interacting with those people for the past six years I'm not too hopeful for novel contributions, but we can try I suppose
  418. # [14:41] <[tm]> annevk: it would be good to find some way if we can
  419. # [14:41] <[tm]> annevk: btw http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/iri/trac/report/1?asc=1&sort=ticket is better view maybe
  420. # [14:41] <[tm]> shows only the open issues
  421. # [14:42] <[tm]> 37 open
  422. # [14:42] <annevk> [tm]: you think there's some gain there?
  423. # [14:42] <annevk> [tm]: I don't mind subscribing and posting if you think we should
  424. # [14:42] <annevk> [tm]: just wonder what the upside is
  425. # [14:43] <[tm]> well I am getting some complaint that we are ignoring use cases
  426. # [14:43] <annevk> jreschke will point out once again how he thinks this should really be on top of the existing specs somehow rather than replacing them
  427. # [14:43] <[tm]> for non-Web considerations
  428. # [14:44] <annevk> that this is really about error handling instead of a better approach to define URLs, etc.
  429. # [14:44] <[tm]> and non-browsers
  430. # [14:44] <[tm]> annevk: yeah
  431. # [14:44] <annevk> we're addressing the problems curl and such have
  432. # [14:44] <[tm]> OK
  433. # [14:45] <annevk> and this should help every consumer of HTML too...
  434. # [14:45] <annevk> or consumer of CSS
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  436. # [14:46] <annevk> back later, tuna steak time
  437. # [14:51] <SimonSapin> We have a CSS issue on the definition of what’s in the url(foo) syntax, and how it should be interpreted
  438. # [14:51] <SimonSapin> (CSS escaping allows any unicode string)
  439. # [14:51] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: what's the issue?
  440. # [14:52] <SimonSapin> the spec previously said URI, it should say IRI or something else
  441. # [14:52] <zcorpan> clearly it should say URL :-)
  442. # [14:53] <SimonSapin> well, the name of the "value type" is <url> and the syntax is url(...)
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  445. # [14:57] <zcorpan> the syntax is defined in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-syntax/
  446. # [14:57] <zcorpan> the value type should be updated to reference http://url.spec.whatwg.org/
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  449. # [15:05] <annevk> [tm]: so hey, I guess you should go out about now ;) but lets look into writing to public-iri next week or so
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  451. # [15:06] <annevk> [tm]: I'm definitely open to all kinds of use cases, but my primary concern is what's important for http://platform.html5.org
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  453. # [15:07] <annevk> SimonSapin: yeah, CSS should reference the URL Standard, it should just pass the string (collection of code points) to the parser and set the base URL appropriately and that's that
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  466. # [15:28] <[tm]> annevk: OK
  467. # [15:28] <[tm]> I been talking to Larry already
  468. # [15:28] <[tm]> will talk to Martin in persdon if I can get him to make some time
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  470. # [15:28] <[tm]> agreed about that use cases
  471. # [15:29] <[tm]> but I can understand others feeling like they're being blown off
  472. # [15:29] <[tm]> those the overstatement is tiresome
  473. # [15:30] <[tm]> sometimes
  474. # [15:32] <zcorpan> annevk: "Otherwise, set state to no scheme and start over (from the first code point in input)." why does this need to start over?
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  477. # [15:37] <[tm]> annevk: wondering now if it might make sense for the URL spec to explicitly define some conformance classes
  478. # [15:37] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
  479. # [15:37] <[tm]> if so I can take a shot at adding some language
  480. # [15:37] <zcorpan> though i guess it would be implemented by checking against /^[0-9a-zA-Z\+\-\.]*$/ so i guess it's fine
  481. # [15:38] <[tm]> e.g., based on subset of classes in the HTML spec
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  486. # [15:54] <SimonSapin> annevk: the URL Standard, this one http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ ?
  487. # [15:55] <Ms2ger> Yep
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  492. # [16:08] <[tm]> annevk: https://github.com/whatwg/mimesniff
  493. # [16:08] <[tm]> annevk: if you can set up http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/ that'd be great
  494. # [16:09] <[tm]> oh
  495. # [16:09] <[tm]> cool
  496. # [16:09] <[tm]> I see it's already there
  497. # [16:09] <[tm]> automatic I guess
  498. # [16:09] <[tm]> nice
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  500. # [16:10] <[tm]> ah no
  501. # [16:10] <[tm]> I guess it was already there before
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  503. # [16:11] <annevk> yeah that was there before
  504. # [16:11] <annevk> [tm]: who is going to maintain whatwg/mimesniff?
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  506. # [16:11] <annevk> [tm]: I can set up some kind of thing to make that work
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  510. # [16:14] <annevk> need to coordinate with Hixie
  511. # [16:15] <annevk> SimonSapin: yup
  512. # [16:16] <SimonSapin> annevk: I wish I had this a few months ago :)
  513. # [16:16] <annevk> zcorpan: because you end up in "hierarchical" which does not reuse buffer
  514. # [16:16] <annevk> zcorpan: which means I need to reset buffer there I think
  515. # [16:18] <annevk> [tm]: the situation is a bit similar with DOM Events; it's easier to just write a better standard than get the people "in charge" to fix theirs
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  519. # [16:22] <annevk> SimonSapin: ah, you are/were implementing a CSS parser?
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  524. # [16:23] <SimonSapin> annevk: Yes. I’m making WeasyPrint (an UA with PDF output) and it’s dependency tinycss (CSS parser)
  525. # [16:24] <annevk> ah, in Python, sweet
  526. # [16:24] <SimonSapin> yes
  527. # [16:24] * attiks is now known as attiks|away
  528. # [16:24] <SimonSapin> but weasyprint still has url-related bugs, so this new spec will be useful to me
  529. # [16:25] <annevk> it's not fully complete, but for http/https at least it should be pretty accurate
  530. # [16:25] <annevk> though I've yet to fully figure out IP addresses and host names, they're nasty
  531. # [16:25] <annevk> and then especially host names are nasty
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  544. # [17:11] <[tm]> annevk: I can be responsible for whatever minimal maintenance it might need for now
  545. # [17:12] <[tm]> there are no open bugs against it as far as I know
  546. # [17:12] <[tm]> and it's fairly mature as far as I can tell
  547. # [17:13] <annevk> okay
  548. # [17:13] <annevk> so currently abarth owns mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org
  549. # [17:13] <annevk> I'll ask Hixie to change that to me so I can set up the syncing script
  550. # [17:16] <annevk> Never thought I would care about boring shit like copyright. I even feel slightly passionate about it
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  552. # [17:17] <karlcow> ideally people would not sign at all their work
  553. # [17:17] <SimonSapin> slightly passionate :)
  554. # [17:18] <karlcow> but I guess it depends on the type of ideals the person has
  555. # [17:18] <karlcow> :)
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  573. # [17:39] <karlcow> annevk: you have a date
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  581. # [18:09] <abarth> annevk: thanks
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  593. # [18:45] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  598. # [18:59] <smaug____> error event handling is special only in onerror event handler, right?
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  600. # [19:02] <smaug____> nm
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  620. # [19:43] <annevk> Hixie: morning enough already?
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  631. # [20:19] <Hixie> annevk: sup
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  633. # [20:20] * Hixie just realised he was working and hadn't yet checked irc and e-mail!
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  638. # [20:28] <annevk> Hixie: can you change the user of mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org to be annevankesteren?
  639. # [20:28] <Hixie> abarth is handing it over to you?
  640. # [20:28] * Hixie pokes abarth for confirmation
  641. # [20:28] <abarth> go for it
  642. # [20:28] <Hixie> thanks
  643. # [20:28] <Hixie> annevk: on it
  644. # [20:29] <Hixie> hm
  645. # [20:29] <abarth> annevk: thanks for taking up the cause
  646. # [20:29] <Hixie> this is going to nuke the directory, is that ok?
  647. # [20:29] <Hixie> or actually, i guess it won't
  648. # [20:29] <Hixie> it'll just move to pointing to an empty one
  649. # [20:29] <annevk> Hixie: (the complete story is that mike is going to do it and I will set up syncing between github and the spec)
  650. # [20:29] <Hixie> the old one is abarth's user will still be there
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  652. # [20:29] <Hixie> annevk: nice
  653. # [20:29] <annevk> Hixie: yeah that's okay, it will be updated shortly
  654. # [20:29] <Hixie> k
  655. # [20:29] <Hixie> Please Stand By...
  656. # [20:30] <annevk> hopefully I can do it in ten minutes, otherwise it'll have to wait an hour
  657. # [20:30] <Hixie> oh sweet, dreamhost actually do support moving the files over
  658. # [20:30] <annevk> yeah I thought so
  659. # [20:30] <Hixie> abarth: you don't have anything secret in the directory, do you?
  660. # [20:30] <Hixie> abarth: if not, i'll just move it over
  661. # [20:31] <Hixie> annevk: ~/mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/ ?
  662. # [20:31] <annevk> Hixie: yeah
  663. # [20:31] <annevk> just defaults
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  665. # [20:32] <Ms2ger> I guess we should get parsing set up there too
  666. # [20:33] <Hixie> annevk: just in case abarth does have secret files there (e.g. svn password or something) I haven't copied the files over
  667. # [20:33] <Hixie> annevk: but it is otherwise done.
  668. # [20:33] <annevk> Hixie: sweet, I'll set up the sync script
  669. # [20:33] <GPHemsley> Is the WHATWG "official" MIME type for WAVE files "audio/wave"? Is this a willful violation of RFC 2361 (which specifies "audio/vnd.wave")? And where does that leave "audio/wav" and "audio/x-wav"?
  670. # [20:34] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-24-130-172-29.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  671. # [20:34] <Hixie> GPHemsley: the WHATWG "official" stance on MIME types in general is "sigh"
  672. # [20:34] <GPHemsley> :)
  673. # [20:34] <GPHemsley> s/official/canonical/
  674. # [20:34] <annevk> yeah, sanse quotes too :)
  675. # [20:34] <annevk> euh, sans*
  676. # [20:34] <Hixie> GPHemsley: the honest answer is we haven't fixed MIME types yet
  677. # [20:35] <Hixie> GPHemsley: it's on the roadmap, but probably not for this year
  678. # [20:35] <GPHemsley> I see
  679. # [20:35] <Hixie> GPHemsley: i expect to revamp the way registrations for everything is done at some point
  680. # [20:35] <Hixie> and that may affect mime types also
  681. # [20:35] <GPHemsley> what do you recommend in the meantime?
  682. # [20:35] <annevk> I have MIME in general as something I'd like to fix at some point
  683. # [20:35] <Hixie> for audio/wave, probably doesnt' matter, i'd assume it all gets sniffed anytway
  684. # [20:36] <annevk> at least define MIME type parsing and MIME type parameter parsing in more detail
  685. # [20:36] <annevk> because that's kind of a mess
  686. # [20:36] <Hixie> that too
  687. # [20:36] <GPHemsley> alright
  688. # [20:37] <annevk> http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/ is up and running again
  689. # [20:37] * Quits: vikash (~vikash@unaffiliated/vikash) (Quit: Leaving)
  690. # [20:38] <annevk> commits to https://github.com/whatwg/mimesniff will be propagated
  691. # [20:38] <annevk> thanks Hixie / abarth
  692. # [20:38] <annevk> and [tm] !
  693. # [20:38] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@89.142.41.25) (Quit: sedovsek)
  694. # [20:39] <Hixie> Ms2ger: let me know if you do want me to set things up for you (or tell anne and have him ask me to set it up for him :-) )
  695. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> Having anne do it for me sounds good ;)
  696. # [20:40] <annevk> Ms2ger: ask Hixie for a URL and have him assign it to the annevankesteren account :p
  697. # [20:40] <Ms2ger> parsing?
  698. # [20:40] <annevk> Ms2ger: and make a github repo
  699. # [20:40] <Hixie> parsing.spec.whatwg.org?
  700. # [20:40] <Ms2ger> annevk, what did you use to convert the repo?
  701. # [20:40] <annevk> gotta catch a train
  702. # [20:41] <Ms2ger> See you, then :)
  703. # [20:41] <annevk> Ms2ger: the hggit stuff, I can do that for you if you want, later
  704. # [20:41] <Hixie> man, anne's getting jeff crashing his town to speak to him
  705. # [20:41] <Hixie> high roller
  706. # [20:41] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@212.238.236.229) (Remote host closed the connection)
  707. # [20:41] <Hixie> domparsing.spec.whatwg.org?
  708. # [20:41] <Hixie> what spec are we talking about here?
  709. # [20:41] * Wilto is now known as Horse_ebooks
  710. # [20:41] * Horse_ebooks is now known as Wilto
  711. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html
  712. # [20:43] <[tm]> annevk: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url/raw-file/default/Overview.html
  713. # [20:43] <Hixie> so domparsing.spec ?
  714. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> That works
  715. # [20:44] <Hixie> [tm]: can you do that with html too? :-P
  716. # [20:44] <[tm]> heh
  717. # [20:44] <Ms2ger> [tm], and DOM4? :)
  718. # [20:44] <[tm]> my hit points are limited
  719. # [20:45] <Hixie> hah
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  722. # [20:46] <Hixie> Ms2ger: please complete this sentence re that spec: "This specification defines "
  723. # [20:47] <Hixie> (for whatwg.org/specs)
  724. # [20:47] <Ms2ger> "DOM APIs related to parsing markup into DOM trees and serializing DOM trees into markup"? :)
  725. # [20:47] <Hixie> thanks
  726. # [20:47] * Ms2ger is happy he wrote an abstract once
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  728. # [20:48] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  729. # [20:49] <Hixie> :-)
  730. # [20:49] <Hixie> up to anne now
  731. # [20:49] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-86.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  732. # [20:50] <[tm]> this looks exciting: https://twitter.com/esdiscuss/
  733. # [20:52] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  734. # [20:59] <Ms2ger> annevk, everything set up
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  739. # [21:07] <Hixie> "If the [script] element does not have a src attribute, and the element has been flagged as "parser-inserted", and [...] the parser that created the script is [...] an HTML parser whose script nesting level is zero [...]"
  740. # [21:07] <Hixie> how can that ever happen?
  741. # [21:07] * Quits: rwaldron (~rwaldron@nat/mozilla/x-sdmdhymokkektsvg) (Quit: Leaving...)
  742. # [21:08] <Hixie> i added that on 2012-08-28
  743. # [21:08] <Hixie> hmm
  744. # [21:08] <Hixie> that's only a month ago
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  747. # [21:10] <Hixie> oh i think i meant "is 1"
  748. # [21:11] <Hixie> not zero
  749. # [21:11] <Hixie> (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Aug/0231.html)
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  755. # [21:26] <Hixie> annevk: re URLs: did you file a bug on updating the HTML spec to point to URL?
  756. # [21:26] <Hixie> annevk: and, is there any chance I can get you to define "URL" as a string, and use a slightly different term for the decomposed+absolute form? maybe "absolute URL"?
  757. # [21:27] <Hixie> annevk: (it would make merging way easier, and be more consistent with how people refer to URLs)
  758. # [21:27] <annevk> that would be kinda confusing with the URL object
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  760. # [21:28] <Hixie> people think the value in href="foo.html" is a URL, I don't think we're going to convince them otherwise
  761. # [21:28] <annevk> you have a point there
  762. # [21:29] <Hixie> having the URL object represent an absolute URL is ok, i think. You can always _create_ a URL object from a relative one, right?
  763. # [21:29] <Hixie> it'll just resolve it first
  764. # [21:29] <annevk> you can if you provide a base URL
  765. # [21:29] <Hixie> oh it doesn't use the the script base URL? interesting
  766. # [21:29] <annevk> maybe it should fallback to that, didn't think of that
  767. # [21:30] <Hixie> didn't we define a Location.resolve() method at some point?
  768. # [21:30] <annevk> I hate the terminology minefield
  769. # [21:30] <annevk> Hixie: we removed it in favor of the URL constructor
  770. # [21:30] <Hixie> ah ok good
  771. # [21:30] <Hixie> i was about to suggest doing that
  772. # [21:31] <Hixie> ok so yeah, i'd say default to the script base URL or something
  773. # [21:31] <Hixie> but either way, i think it makes the name of hte URL object be fine
  774. # [21:31] <Hixie> even if we define URL as the string like in HTML today, and absolute URL as the decomposed thing that the algorithms use
  775. # [21:33] <annevk> Hixie: give it another two weeks or so and I'll file that bug; there's a conference here next week and I'm not sure how much time I have; I also want to try updating XMLHttpRequest first to use the new URL stuff to see how it works out
  776. # [21:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: you're ready to go btw
  777. # [21:34] <Ms2ger> Excellent, thanks :)
  778. # [21:34] <annevk> Ms2ger: do you want a redirect from http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html or should I make it nice page like the one we have for ranges?
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  780. # [21:35] * mp3jeep0_ is now known as mp3jeep01
  781. # [21:35] <Ms2ger> A redirect, I think
  782. # [21:35] <annevk> kk
  783. # [21:35] <Hixie> annevk: lgtm
  784. # [21:37] <annevk> Hixie: if we call all strings URL I think we should reserve absolute URL for the form that is not relative, and use "parsed URL" or some such for the object
  785. # [21:37] <annevk> I'm not a big fan of that terminology personally though
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  787. # [21:37] <annevk> having written a URL spec I can see why they went with relative reference and URI :)
  788. # [21:39] <annevk> Ms2ger: done
  789. # [21:40] <Ms2ger> Thanks
  790. # [21:43] <Hixie> annevk: "parsed URL" works for me. I'd just have to change "resulting absolute URL" throughout
  791. # [21:44] <Hixie> annevk: which is better than changing every instance of URL anywhere. :-)
  792. # [21:44] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
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  794. # [21:44] <Hixie> hsivonen, abarth: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17872
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  797. # [21:48] * dgathright_ is now known as dgathright
  798. # [21:52] <abarth> Hixie: is that a feature request or a compat issue?
  799. # [21:53] <Hixie> feature request
  800. # [21:53] <Hixie> it's asking for <form id=a></form> <fieldset form=a> <input> </fieldset> to associate the input with the form
  801. # [21:53] <annevk> abarth: so to your knowledge WebKit is going to stick with IDNA2003? or are there plans to implement UTS #46?
  802. # [21:54] <annevk> abarth: I'm not too interested in what the IETF thinks, I just want to define what everyone wants to converge towards
  803. # [21:54] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:141d:8e72:5d37:206b)
  804. # [21:54] <abarth> annevk: I believe it's a port specific decision
  805. # [21:54] <annevk> abarth: I saw Gecko might just go to IDNA2008 by adopting some library
  806. # [21:54] <abarth> annevk: Chrome doesn't have any plans to move off IDNA2003
  807. # [21:54] <annevk> abarth: gotta love that
  808. # [21:55] <annevk> abarth: ah okay, I found some Chromium bug where Mark Davies suggested otherwise, but maybe he was wrong; I guess he's not on Chrome to begin with
  809. # [21:55] <annevk> Davis*
  810. # [21:56] <annevk> -- http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=114375
  811. # [21:56] <abarth> (looking)
  812. # [21:58] <abarth> annevk: jshin is the person who will make the final decision
  813. # [21:58] <abarth> you can just ask him directly
  814. # [21:58] <annevk> guess I can try that, haven't had much luck in the past when asking about encoding stuff
  815. # [22:00] <abarth> I would be very surprised if Chrome adopted IDNA2008
  816. # [22:05] <annevk> thus far I know Safari has no immediate plans (and has a list of sites that will break if they do); I know Gecko is waiting for relicensing of some Japanese DNS library they want to adopt that implements IDNA2008; Opera implements IDNA2008 and faces compatibility issues (presumably including those on Safari's private list), Opera's IDNA2008 implementation might not entirely match the spec, they do support IDNA2003 label-separator
  817. # [22:05] <annevk> s for instance; Chrome you just mentioned; no idea about Microsoft
  818. # [22:08] <annevk> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/michkap/archive/2012/09/27/10353657.aspx suggests Microsoft goes with IDNA2008 + UTS #46 for Windows 8
  819. # [22:08] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
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  823. # [22:13] <annevk> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/michkap/archive/2012/02/27/10273315.aspx looks like IDNs are a world of hurt
  824. # [22:13] <annevk> joy
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  827. # [22:19] <[tm]> lovely
  828. # [22:22] <annevk> [tm]: http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/#acknowledgements has an encoding issue
  829. # [22:22] <annevk> [tm]: lacks a comma, too
  830. # [22:26] <[tm]> annevk: thanks will fix it now
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  840. # [22:42] <zewt> annevk: IDNs seem like a pretty broken idea
  841. # [22:43] <zewt> i mean, they simply Don't Work(tm) in plaintext, short of evil heuristics
  842. # [22:43] <hober> zewt: i dunno, poopla is pretty awesome.
  843. # [22:44] <annevk> hober: one of those blogs.msdn.com links above suggests poopla might be breaking the rules
  844. # [22:44] <zewt> <- shocked
  845. # [22:49] <annevk> I'm not really shocked that much, just annoyed that nobody figures it out in full detail
  846. # [22:49] <annevk> IDNA2003 was pretty complete, but still did not cover things such as underscores or semicolons in labels
  847. # [22:50] <annevk> the same thing happened with URL, in theory URLs were pretty restricted, but nobody implemented the restrictions and just looked at the separators
  848. # [22:51] <annevk> and then when that became widespread, nobody updated the definition
  849. # [22:51] <annevk> you'd think with a billion people online or so, there must be more than one person that cares about fixing those things
  850. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> Unrelated to URLs, KLINGON STYLE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CayMeza487M (from what I understand, a pretty close translation from Korean to Klingon).
  851. # [22:54] <annevk> haha
  852. # [22:54] <annevk> has the elevator scene and everything
  853. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> yup! the only major scene i see them missing is the fake-snowstorm
  854. # [22:58] <[tm]> annevk: I see Thomas Ford left Opera
  855. # [23:00] <annevk> [tm]: oh? haven't seen him in ages
  856. # [23:01] <annevk> https://twitter.com/thomasford doesn't say much
  857. # [23:02] <annevk> does say he's working for Soundrop, doh
  858. # [23:02] <[tm]> annevk: linkedin
  859. # [23:02] <[tm]> yah
  860. # [23:02] <[tm]> whatever that is
  861. # [23:02] <[tm]> famous?
  862. # [23:02] <[tm]> Hixie: IANA approved the registration for text/html
  863. # [23:03] <[tm]> but the sent back questions on application/microdata+json
  864. # [23:03] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-pfverlmllwytlxwq) (Quit: tantek)
  865. # [23:04] <danbri_> got a link for that, re application/microdata+json questions?
  866. # [23:04] <[tm]> danbri_: no, private mail unfortunately
  867. # [23:04] * Quits: rworth (~rworth@209-255-211-4.ip.mcleodusa.net) (Quit: Leaving...)
  868. # [23:04] <danbri_> ok, thanks
  869. # [23:04] <[tm]> that seems to be the way they handle these
  870. # [23:05] <[tm]> text/html updates is at http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/text/index.html
  871. # [23:05] <[tm]> http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/text/html
  872. # [23:05] * danbri_ finds http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf-types/current/msg01722.html
  873. # [23:05] <danbri_> the json-ld comparison seems fair; they're in similar territory
  874. # [23:06] <[tm]> dude subsequently posted to whatwg about that
  875. # [23:06] <[tm]> lemme find the thread
  876. # [23:06] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  877. # [23:07] <[tm]> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Aug/thread.html#msg73
  878. # [23:07] * danbri_ was reading http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf-types/current/msg01722.html
  879. # [23:07] <[tm]> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Aug/thread.html#msg80
  880. # [23:08] <annevk> man, can't wait when IANA is fully replaced by wiki.whatwg.org or specs
  881. # [23:08] <annevk> for when, even
  882. # [23:09] <annevk> not like it matters http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/text/html exists now
  883. # [23:09] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.6.198) (Quit: othermaciej)
  884. # [23:10] <annevk> [tm]: so no fucks were given about versioning or the DOCTYPE stuff from the RFC?
  885. # [23:10] <annevk> [tm]: so weird!
  886. # [23:10] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.95.180) (Quit: nn)
  887. # [23:10] <[tm]> matters for me personally because it's one less thing i'm supposed to have got done that I have now got done
  888. # [23:10] <[tm]> level cleared
  889. # [23:11] <[tm]> annevk: I just push the buttons
  890. # [23:11] <annevk> bit hit with the ladies
  891. # [23:11] <annevk> big*; damn it
  892. # [23:12] <[tm]> PSY of web standards
  893. # [23:12] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek)
  894. # [23:12] <[tm]> gangham style
  895. # [23:13] <annevk> still surprised no fucks were given about any of the things fucks were going to be given over
  896. # [23:14] <[tm]> I'm just always happy to slip stuff under the radar whenever I can
  897. # [23:15] <[tm]> and prepare to fly the "Too late now!" flag as needed later
  898. # [23:15] <[tm]> hey, that worked for the IDN WG
  899. # [23:15] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-222.net-80-236-80.issy.rev.numericable.fr) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  900. # [23:16] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-xxfpyafntbsescws)
  901. # [23:16] <annevk> oh hey, sorry, we fucked over the primary means of accessing your site, have a nice day now
  902. # [23:18] <annevk> prolly the same guys that deleted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.yu
  903. # [23:18] <annevk> or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.cs
  904. # [23:19] <[tm]> hmm what's e10s?
  905. # [23:19] <[tm]> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=770778
  906. # [23:19] * Joins: jarek_ (~jarek@bcz76.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  907. # [23:20] <[tm]> also https://twitter.com/kripken/status/251754496361914369 looks like good news
  908. # [23:20] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  909. # [23:20] <[tm]> "Initial support for websockets in emscripten now in incoming branch (i.e., use the C sockets API, and it uses websockets)"
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  912. # [23:22] <annevk> kinda, you'd have to rewrite the server software though
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  915. # [23:24] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.6.198) (Client Quit)
  916. # [23:24] * Quits: drublic_ (~drublic@frbg-5d84f754.pool.mediaWays.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  917. # [23:24] * Joins: drublic_ (~drublic@frbg-5d84f754.pool.mediaWays.net)
  918. # [23:25] <[tm]> oh
  919. # [23:28] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.6.198)
  920. # [23:28] <[tm]> also me finds https://wiki.mozilla.org/Electrolysis ( = e10s(
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  935. # Session Close: Sat Sep 29 00:00:00 2012

The end :)