/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-09-29 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  206. # [07:09] <synod> Hi, where is the HTML source control repository?
  207. # [07:11] <synod> i did $ svn co http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/ but it seems to be missing lots of things like the build system.
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  219. # [07:26] <synod> spec build system? anyone?
  220. # [07:39] <synod> ok maybe build system for html is too hard... where are the parsing tests?
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  226. # [07:54] <synod> no official html5 to xml tests?
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  228. # [08:02] <[tm]> synod: build script isn't in the repo
  229. # [08:02] <[tm]> not really clear why anybody else would need it
  230. # [08:02] <[tm]> dunno what you mean by html5 to xml tests
  231. # [08:03] <[tm]> there's noththing that would make building something from html any harder than from xml
  232. # [08:04] <synod> [tm]: i would like to see how the spec is built... ?
  233. # [08:04] <synod> [tm]: as i understand it, html5 defines a way to parse invalid html into a valid dom? there is an xml version of each valid dom?
  234. # [08:07] <[tm]> xml version of each valid DOM...
  235. # [08:08] <[tm]> once the parser construcs the DOM it really doesn't matter where the serialized source it came from was text/html or XML
  236. # [08:09] <synod> how do i test my html5 parser? i have to diff the dom from html and the 'correct' dom, no?
  237. # [08:09] <synod> there are lots of xml -> dom parsers. are there html5 and xml test pairs?
  238. # [08:10] <[tm]> synod: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-end.html#coercing-an-html-dom-into-an-infoset might have something you want as far as generating XML from a DOM, I dunno
  239. # [08:10] <[tm]> what is a a "correct" DOM man?
  240. # [08:10] <[tm]> why dod you want "test pairs"?
  241. # [08:10] <[tm]> what are you trying to do?
  242. # [08:11] <[tm]> there are lots of html -> dom parsers of course
  243. # [08:11] <synod> [tm]: i am wanting to write an html5 parser... how do i test it
  244. # [08:12] <[tm]> ah
  245. # [08:12] <[tm]> OK, well, there's a testsuite in the html5lib source repoo
  246. # [08:13] <[tm]> http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/
  247. # [08:13] <[tm]> hg clone https://code.google.com/p/html5lib/
  248. # [08:14] <[tm]> synod: what language you writing your parser in?
  249. # [08:14] <synod> [tm]: ocaml
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  254. # [08:15] <synod> html5lib tests are in some custom format?
  255. # [08:16] <[tm]> python/html5lib/tests subdir
  256. # [08:16] <[tm]> the ones there are in python scripts
  257. # [08:17] <[tm]> there's json test sources in testdata subdir
  258. # [08:17] <synod> and some weird format with #data and ||| stuff
  259. # [08:18] <[tm]> yeah
  260. # [08:19] <synod> is html5lib tests the most complete for parsing? others look like rendering and such
  261. # [08:19] <synod> does html5lib track whatwg or w3c?
  262. # [08:19] <[tm]> none of them are rendering tests
  263. # [08:20] <synod> i mean the other suites linked from the wiki
  264. # [08:20] <[tm]> synod: there is no difference between the parsing algorithm in the whatwg and the w3c specs
  265. # [08:20] <[tm]> html5lib test suite is the most complete
  266. # [08:20] <synod> oh, that's good
  267. # [08:21] <[tm]> browser teams have upstreamed tests back to it
  268. # [08:21] <[tm]> hundreds of tests
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  270. # [08:22] <synod> cool
  271. # [08:22] <synod> thx 4 the info
  272. # [08:23] <[tm]> synod: https://github.com/w3c/html-testsuite/tree/master/tests/submission/Opera/html5lib has a runnable harness that may or not be useful to you
  273. # [08:24] <[tm]> for more answers, hang out here for a while and ping jgraham and zcorpan and annevk when they wake up
  274. # [08:24] <[tm]> (CET time)
  275. # [08:27] <synod> ok
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  277. # [08:49] <annevk> synod: you want to write a spec?
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  280. # [09:22] <synod> annevk: for a different language
  281. # [09:22] <synod> annevk: looks like anolis is what whatwg uses?
  282. # [09:22] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Anolis is what most of our specs use
  283. # [09:23] <annevk> in particular "Setting up Anolis with cross-specification cross-references"
  284. # [09:23] <annevk> HTML uses Anolis, but has several pre-processing steps of its own too
  285. # [09:24] <synod> ok... and html5lib tests are the most complete parsing suite?
  286. # [09:28] <annevk> yup
  287. # [09:34] <synod> thx... ttyl
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  289. # [10:00] <SimonSapin> annevk: I skimmed the state machine in the URL Standard. Do you think that parts of it could be expressed (more tersely) as regular expressions, like RFC 3986 did?
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  291. # [10:03] <annevk> if you do something like that you'd need to explain a whole bunch of other things
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  293. # [10:06] <annevk> in general I don't think using ABNF or regular expressions is a good way to explain how to process complex syntax
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  296. # [10:16] * Ms2ger kicks annevk out of the IETF
  297. # [10:16] <Ms2ger> ... oh wait
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  309. # [10:55] <[tm]> so I'm thinking about http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Sep/0499.html
  310. # [10:56] <[tm]> "we simply ask browser vendors to provide
  311. # [10:56] <[tm]> the results they got when they regression tested the build that we are
  312. # [10:56] <[tm]> considering for conformance purposes"
  313. # [10:56] <[tm]> which sounds worth considering
  314. # [10:56] <[tm]> but would still want to be able to indepedently verify the results if possible
  315. # [10:58] <[tm]> I wonder if all browser teams have test runners that I could set up instances of
  316. # [10:59] <Ms2ger> Can you set up instances of Microsoft employees?
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  319. # [11:22] <[tm]> Ms2ger: :-)
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  389. # [16:54] <jgraham> [tm]: You are quite welcome to verify the results if you like, but I think it will take you a while :) I'm not sure that we would be desperate to go through the effort of releasing our test infrastructure
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  393. # [16:59] <jgraham> Not because I see it as secret sauce, just because it would be quite a lot of work to unleash a mess of code that was designed to run in our particular environment on the world, and very little gain
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  401. # [18:05] <jgraham> Is it just my computer or is clang/llvm roughly the slowest thing in the world to compile
  402. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> Nah
  403. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> Gecko is
  404. # [18:05] <jgraham> (I mean to compile clang itself, not to compile using clang)
  405. # [18:06] <jgraham> Well I think either this computer is more rubbish than I believed or I am doing something seriously wrong because so far this seems to have taken 3 hours
  406. # [18:09] <Ms2ger> bz says 15 minutes at most
  407. # [18:09] <[tm]> jgraham: thanks for comments about test stuff
  408. # [18:10] <Ms2ger> But he's got pretty fast hardware
  409. # [18:10] <smaug____> yeah, I don't think compiling clang is that slow
  410. # [18:10] <zewt> well, unless there's a huge RAM issue, the difference between crappy budget hardware and really fast consumer hardware isn't 15-minutes/3-hours
  411. # [18:11] <smaug____> swapping would make compiling really slow
  412. # [18:11] <zewt> that's a "huge RAM issue" :)
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  414. # [18:14] <jgraham> It could well be. It has certainly swapped everything else out
  415. # [18:16] <jgraham> But is showing free memory so...
  416. # [18:16] <zewt> i don't even use swap on any of my linux systems, heh, but i don't run X on most of them
  417. # [18:16] <jgraham> This is OSX
  418. # [18:17] <jgraham> Which is super-annoying when you want to compile things
  419. # [18:17] <jgraham> Or really install anything
  420. # [18:17] <zewt> osx is super-annoying when you want to ... things
  421. # [18:18] <zewt> (keyboard navigation for menus? hahahaha)
  422. # [18:29] <Ms2ger> Mm, I think there's a clang in homeports or brews or whatever
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  424. # [18:56] <jgraham> zewt: Well it's not like I plan to buy a Mac again. Would be nice if someone else was making comparably good hardware though
  425. # [18:56] <jgraham> Well specifically comparably good ouchpads
  426. # [18:56] <jgraham> *touchpads
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  429. # [18:58] <[tm]> jgraham: I built llvm on my OS X laptop before and I am certain it took less that 3 hours
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  431. # [18:59] <[tm]> from the sources, with defaults -- debug build plus all whatever test stuff and such it also builds
  432. # [19:00] <[tm]> so unless something major has changed in the sources since then, I wouldn't think it should take that long
  433. # [19:00] <[tm]> that said, I'm also sure it took more than 15 minutes
  434. # [19:00] <[tm]> it wasn't fast
  435. # [19:00] <[tm]> I'd guess it was probably 30 minutes or definitely less than hour
  436. # [19:01] <[tm]> fro llvm+clang
  437. # [19:02] <[tm]> 2.7 GHz dual core
  438. # [19:03] <[tm]> it was faster than building some other stuff -- e.g., boost
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  452. # [19:47] <zewt> random sad hilarity: tabbing to the search box in Steam with the keyboard, instead of clicking, lands you on an input box containing the text "search the store"
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The end :)