/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-10-03 / end

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  85. # [02:42] <zewt> heh, that's a bit user-hostile: the default firefox download page is the mobile page, even though that's obviously not what the overwhelming majority of people want
  86. # [02:43] <zewt> <- not very forgiving of sites intentionally giving people something other than what they want due to ulterior motives
  87. # [02:45] <zewt> strange: <script>history = 1; console.log(history);</script> logs the History object in FF, ignoring the assignment entirely; doesn't happen for "URL", though
  88. # [02:45] <zewt> doesn't happen in webkit; i'd think that would break any site that has a "history" global (which doesn't seem improbable)
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  94. # [02:48] <zewt> gripe gripe they totally broke the address bar in ff15 (or maybe 14)
  95. # [02:48] <zewt> this is why i avoid updating firefox--each update means spending time hunting down ways to disable their latest bad ideas in about:config
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  117. # [03:29] <zewt> (address bar fix: toggle browser.urlbar.autoFill off)
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  208. # [08:17] <hsivonen> Firefox has 4 Korean entries in the Character Encoding menu. Chrome has 1.
  209. # [08:17] <hsivonen> Is Chrome’s Korean an autodetect or is one Korean encoding enough for the legacy Web?
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  211. # [08:19] <hsivonen> IE also has just one Korean encoding
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  213. # [08:20] <hsivonen> What does the “User Defined” encoding mean in Firefox and IE?
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  221. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I would think that all browsers should at least have two: for EUC-KR and ISO-2022-KR
  222. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> I can't remember ever seeing those other two anywhere else
  223. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> UHC and JOHAB
  224. # [08:47] * MikeSmith asks somebody
  225. # [08:48] <annevk> the latter two are not part of the Encoding Standard and definitely not in all browsers
  226. # [08:49] <a-ja> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/170557
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  228. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> annevk: Sangwhan says "Johab is a encoding of its own, which in reality probably doesnt have much of a usecase"
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  230. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> a-ja: thanks for the link
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  232. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> but weird that page mentions UHC and JOHAB but not EUC-KR and ISO-2022-KR
  233. # [08:55] * a-ja asked a search engine
  234. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> and whoah whatta they have going on with the font for the page title
  235. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: our friend Sangwhan from Opera suspects those are there maybe just because a Korean contributor contributed a patch
  236. # [08:58] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  237. # [08:59] <a-ja> keep in mind that's a win95-era article
  238. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  239. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> hmm FF mobile has a much simpler character-encoding menu
  240. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> at least nightly does (mobile)
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  242. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> I guess that's to be expected
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  253. # [09:28] <kmbarnhart> Hi
  254. # [09:29] <kmbarnhart> I was reading the WebVTT spec at http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/#webvtt-file-using-only-nested-cues
  255. # [09:29] <kmbarnhart> and the example used to show a only nested cue seems to be wrong
  256. # [09:30] <kmbarnhart> specifically the rule "whose cues all have an end time offset x greater than or equal to the end time offsets of all the cues whose start time offsets are less than x is said to be a WebVTT file using only nested cues"
  257. # [09:30] <Ms2ger> Oh dear
  258. # [09:31] <kmbarnhart> the fifth cue in the following example breaks the rule as far as I can tall, although it is quite late
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  260. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> matjas: I wrote up a patch the htmlparser code to bring error reporting for ambiguous ampersands into line with the current spec (for the validator bug you filed)
  261. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> no in Henri's hands for review
  262. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> *now
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  274. # [09:59] <matjas> MikeSmith: awesome, thank you :)
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  284. # [10:12] <jgraham> I notice that "actualy write tests" is slowly dropping off the Core Mobile radar as they realise it's quite a lot of real work
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  288. # [10:26] <odinho> jgraham: maaan
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  297. # [10:31] <jgraham> odinho: It's not that surprising. For most players writing tests is against their short-term interests (consumes resources, doesn't have short term gains), but in their long term interests (makes the platform better)
  298. # [10:31] <jgraham> So there is way more talking about doing it than there is actually doing it
  299. # [10:31] <jgraham> This is pretty much textbook tragedy of the commons
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  305. # [10:38] <odinho> jgraham: Well, they should employ some remote people to just do tests then. We do a lot of them. It's fun-fun-fun. Sometimes.
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  308. # [10:40] <jgraham> odinho: I think "they should employ" is the problem :)
  309. # [10:42] <jgraham> Traditionally the way you solve problems liek this is via socialism
  310. # [10:42] <hsivonen> at MS they have a tester for each developer, right?
  311. # [10:42] <jgraham> Really?
  312. # [10:42] <jgraham> Doing *what*?
  313. # [10:42] <hsivonen> so goes the legend
  314. # [10:42] <hsivonen> dunno
  315. # [10:42] <jgraham> Checking their canteen food for poison?
  316. # [10:43] <odinho> They have a brag video about all their hardware and big testsuites at least.
  317. # [10:43] <hsivonen> but I think I’d not having to write tests myself and someone doing it for me
  318. # [10:43] <jgraham> hsivonen: There is am important word missing there
  319. # [10:43] <hsivonen> *I’d like not…
  320. # [10:44] <jgraham> It is kind of the Opera system
  321. # [10:44] <jgraham> It has advantages and disadvantages
  322. # [10:44] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p50829358.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  323. # [10:44] <jgraham> Like most things
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  325. # [10:45] <jgraham> The main disadvantage is that knowing less about the code can make you oblivious of special cases in the implementation that are unusually likely to contain bugs
  326. # [10:47] <jgraham> But overall I think it is a functional system that is rather good at producing tests that can be contributed to the commons
  327. # [10:48] <odinho> Sometimes joaoe tells me "make a test for X" for some special case. Happily more often than once I already had the test :]
  328. # [10:49] <jgraham> Anyway, the communist solution would be for W3C to employ a dedicated platform test team
  329. # [10:50] <jgraham> And encourage them to work with implementors
  330. # [10:50] <jgraham> Not sure how it would add up financially though
  331. # [10:51] <hsivonen> they already hired darobin, so they are already on the slippery slope
  332. # [10:51] <jgraham> Not really to do that job though
  333. # [10:52] <odinho> Guess that's form "test platform platform team"
  334. # [10:52] <jgraham> There is also an advert for a QA manager
  335. # [10:52] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@111-250-121-166.dynamic.hinet.net) (Quit: JohnAlbin)
  336. # [10:53] <jgraham> (so if anyone who is first-langauge Japanese and is reading this wants a job, you might want to consider that)
  337. # [10:53] <jgraham> But that also doesn't mention actually developing *tests* anywhere
  338. # [10:53] <jgraham> It says "testing frameworks"
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  340. # [10:54] <jgraham> (oh sorry, just fluent Japanese, not necessarily first-language)
  341. # [10:54] <jgraham> +in
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  343. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> jgraham: we can hire somebody for that job outside of Japan
  344. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> does it really say fluent japanese is required?
  345. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> if so, it shouldn't
  346. # [10:55] <jgraham> Requirements: [...] Must be fluent in English as the working language of the W3C and Japanese as the first language in Japan where the Keio host is located;
  347. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> stupid
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  349. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> somebody added that from when I reviewed it
  350. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> anyway, ignore that part
  351. # [10:56] <hsivonen> the UTF-8 BOM is like namespace. I still need to look the right hex values up every time.
  352. # [10:57] <SamB_MacG5> does it have to do with japanese typesetting/layout?
  353. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> jgraham: lemme put is this way, we can hire somebody to do the same work outside of that Keio position altogether
  354. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> SamB_MacG5: no, not in any way
  355. # [10:58] * SamB_MacG5 was guessing at an explanation for the "fluent japanese" requirement having snuck in ...
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  357. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> SamB_MacG5: that was almost certainly added just for political reasons
  358. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> to make it difficult for anybody outside of Japan to apply for it
  359. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> anyway, if anybody is interested in leading testing work HTML and related stuff at W3C, feel free to contact me directly if you want
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  361. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> if we have the right person I can deal with jumping through the hoops
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  391. # [12:18] <hsivonen> annevk: do you happen to recall if there are known XSS vulnerabilities with ISO-2022-JP?
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  410. # [12:52] <annevk> hsivonen: only if you don't decode it properly
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  418. # [13:18] <hsivonen> I’m very much not a fan of ISO-2002-*. I’d rather not have to learn about it.
  419. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> 21 people in the new SysApps WG, and 13 of them are from Intel
  420. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=58119&public=1&order=org
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  422. # [13:26] <smaug____> :)
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  425. # [13:28] * hsivonen hadn’t realized the spec now says that encodings that can encode non-markup as US-ASCII markup bytes are ASCII-compatible
  426. # [13:28] <hsivonen> looks like now to be ASCII compatible, the encoding only needs to encode markup as ASCII bytes
  427. # [13:29] <hsivonen> i.e. also encoding something else as the same bytes isn’t banned
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  434. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> hmm I see the spec now says the colon character in time offsets is optional
  435. # [13:40] <annevk> hsivonen: in the Encoding Standard universe only UTF-16 is not ASCII-compatible
  436. # [13:40] <annevk> hsivonen: I filed a bug on HTML to be updated to reflect the terminology of that, since the complete picture becomes more coherent
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  438. # [13:42] <hsivonen> annevk: do you know what x-userdefined is
  439. # [13:42] <hsivonen> ?
  440. # [13:42] <annevk> last I checked that depends on the context :/
  441. # [13:43] <hsivonen> what can it be?
  442. # [13:43] <annevk> I haven't really figured that one out completely yet unfortunately
  443. # [13:43] <hsivonen> is it always ASCII-compatible?
  444. # [13:43] <annevk> e.g. in XHR I think it's iso-8859-1 (not windows-1252), but it depends on the implementation
  445. # [13:43] <annevk> hsivonen: I think in general it might be whatever the user prefers, which could be utf-16 I suppose (though maybe implementations should forbid that)
  446. # [13:44] <hsivonen> sigh. who comes up with this stuff?
  447. # [13:45] <annevk> Brendan's old colleagues?
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  450. # [13:46] <hsivonen> hmm. what’s x-jis0208 and has it been removed from gecko while I wasn’t looking?
  451. # [13:47] <hsivonen> ooh. it’s a font encoding
  452. # [13:48] <annevk> jis0208 is a Japanese index
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  454. # [13:48] <annevk> used by all Japanese encodings
  455. # [13:48] <annevk> dunno about that label though
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  457. # [13:49] <hsivonen> I like it how Gecko omits aliases with a colon in them, because the Java property file format does not allow colons in property keys
  458. # [13:53] * attiks|away is now known as attiks
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  461. # [13:59] <hsivonen> annevk: hmm. maybe we should define x-user-defined as zero-extending the bytes to Unicode (i.e. what ISO thinks ISO-8859-1 is)
  462. # [14:00] <hsivonen> looks like we have XHR tests depending on that
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  465. # [14:02] <hsivonen> oops no. it seems we map the high bytes to the PUA
  466. # [14:03] <hsivonen> anyway, it's ASCII-compatible
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  472. # [14:15] <karlcow> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/DOM/XMLHttpRequest/Using_XMLHttpRequest
  473. # [14:15] <karlcow> >// retrieve data unprocessed as a binary string
  474. # [14:15] <karlcow> >xhr.overrideMimeType("text/plain; charset=x-user-defined");
  475. # [14:17] <karlcow> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6986789/why-are-some-bytes-prefixed-with-0xf7-when-using-charset-x-user-defined-with-xm
  476. # [14:18] <annevk> hsivonen: but does it work that way for HTML documents? or is it treated as not recognised there?
  477. # [14:18] <hsivonen> annevk: it’s blacklisted for <meta> but it should work with HTTP charset
  478. # [14:18] <annevk> dear god
  479. # [14:18] <karlcow> http://www.alanflavell.org.uk/charset/user-defined.html
  480. # [14:19] <karlcow> a page from 1994
  481. # [14:19] <hsivonen> I just wrote a patch to remove the <meta> blacklisting, since it’s not really dangerous
  482. # [14:21] <hsivonen> the bogus <meta> blacklisting is entirely my fault
  483. # [14:21] <annevk> so it works in XML too?
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  485. # [14:21] <hsivonen> annevk: I don’t see why it would not
  486. # [14:21] <annevk> I can add whatever you want to the Encoding Standard
  487. # [14:21] <annevk> that is, next week
  488. # [14:21] <hsivonen> I’m not sure if I want to add it or try to kill it
  489. # [14:21] <hsivonen> oh, except we can’t kill it for XHR, I suppose
  490. # [14:22] <hsivonen> sigh
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  493. # [14:23] <hsivonen> annevk: by code inspection, the ASCII range maps to ASCII and the bytes from 0x80 (inclusive) onwards map to U+F780 (inclusive) and onwards
  494. # [14:26] <annevk> eww
  495. # [14:27] <annevk> I wonder if all browsers do it that way
  496. # [14:27] <hsivonen> annevk: the SO question karlcow linked to suggests WebKit does the same
  497. # [14:29] <karlcow> if we could at least do http://s3.amazonaws.com/files.posterous.com/temp-2012-10-02/hecCsnDHmwksACCpczqbdodzCyJBcyFDsHFoIIgCEsJGlwzFljtHnprDizbH/Submariner53ButtonCrop.jpg.scaled1000.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJFZAE65UYRT34AOQ&Expires=1349266594&Signature=O3Txcgy64Qd5%2FQOdYJyq540PO80%3D
  498. # [14:29] <karlcow> but no
  499. # [14:29] <karlcow> :)
  500. # [14:29] <hsivonen> karlcow: I get AccessDenied in unstyled XML
  501. # [14:29] <karlcow> ah!
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  503. # [14:30] <karlcow> the finger on the button here http://4cp.posterous.com/bill-everett-sub-mariner-53-page-17-1972#
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  505. # [14:31] <hsivonen> still, working on encodings is nicer than working on browsing contexts
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  514. # [14:38] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, fwiw, the no-colon-because-.properties has been a lie for a while, they actually work
  515. # [14:39] <annevk> hsivonen: okay, I have tried to avoid mapping to PUA, but if everyone does it maybe I should stop caring about that and just write it down
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  517. # [14:39] <annevk> Peter Krefting, Opera's encoding guy, does not like PUA at all; Opera almost always uses FFFD instead
  518. # [14:40] <annevk> I sided with that moral high ground for now, but maybe that's not worth it
  519. # [14:42] <hsivonen> In principle, it would be more wrong *not* to map “user-defined” gunk to PUA
  520. # [14:42] <hsivonen> if you are mapping it to *something*
  521. # [14:42] <hsivonen> i.e. using U+0080… would be more wrong
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  524. # [14:48] <annevk> I guess for this particular label you may be correct
  525. # [14:48] <annevk> label/encoding*
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  531. # [14:55] <blade3> Hi Everyone, Ive question about Meta name="title" this is a "good" or "bad" meta name ?
  532. # [14:58] <Ms2ger> Bad, just use <title>
  533. # [14:58] <blade3> ho ok thanks alot!
  534. # [14:58] <Ms2ger> Np
  535. # [14:59] <jgraham> annevk: There goes my plan to hack Opera to replace all instances of the letter U+004F to the PUA and ship a font with a single PUA glyph "OPERA LOGO O"
  536. # [15:00] <blade3> why the *** joomla set automatically meta name="title" ><"
  537. # [15:00] <jgraham> Uh, I think s/replace/map/ is one way to make that sentence make sense
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  540. # [15:03] <zcorpan> annevk: i meant to cc you on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Oct/0032.html
  541. # [15:03] <hsivonen> blade3: content management systems seem to manage more when they emit more metadata
  542. # [15:06] <blade3> ^^
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  567. # [15:39] <blade3> I've another question.. about "rel" attribut..
  568. # [15:40] <blade3> it's not a free attribut ? i've something like rel="albums_201" but w3c doesn't like -_-"
  569. # [15:41] <blade3> on <a> tag : Bad value albums_201 for attribute rel on element a: Keyword albums_201 is not registered
  570. # [15:42] <blade3> i need the rel for my jquery modalbox :-/ how I can fix it?
  571. # [15:42] <Ms2ger> The only allowed values are here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#linkTypes
  572. # [15:43] * Joins: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  573. # [15:43] <Ms2ger> You can use the hidden input, I guess
  574. # [15:45] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|traini
  575. # [15:45] * abstractj|traini is now known as abstractj
  576. # [15:45] <fkm> Or the data-attribute.
  577. # [15:47] <Ms2ger> fkm, oh, does it support that? I didn't immediately see that in the documentation
  578. # [15:48] <blade3> fkm: like : <a data-attribute="bleh"></a> ?
  579. # [15:48] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se)
  580. # [15:50] <fkm> Ms2ger: Well. Javascript does. So you could do $('whatever').get(0).dataset. Or am I confusing something here?
  581. # [15:50] * Joins: danzik17 (~danzik17@164.55.254.106)
  582. # [15:51] <Ms2ger> fkm, he's got a library that looks at the rel attribute, or a hidden input, or something to do with forms
  583. # [15:52] <fkm> Well. He could modify it. That's what I did to the Slimbox2 so it would pass the validator.
  584. # [15:52] <blade3> it's not a form. it's just a list of <a><img ...></a>
  585. # [15:53] <blade3> and i've many a rel="albums" to generate a albums with a[rel="albums"] tag
  586. # [15:54] <fkm> blade3: Have a look at the Slimbox part http://dev.snemelk.ch/gallery/README
  587. # [15:55] <blade3> ok i will look that
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  589. # [15:58] <blade3> hmm nice, I'll modify my jquery and I'll try.. I come back soon to tell you if it's working
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  602. # [16:10] <annevk> zcorpan: hmm yeah, well, browsers are shipping with URL already...
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  604. # [16:10] <annevk> zcorpan: unless someone tells me to rename it, I'm not going to care much I think
  605. # [16:11] <Ms2ger> We broke Yahoo maps because of URL at some point, IIRC
  606. # [16:11] <Ms2ger> But bz told me the interface was fine
  607. # [16:13] * Quits: richt (~richt@office.oslo.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  608. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15765
  609. # [16:15] <zcorpan> hey, past me suggested renaming :-P
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  611. # [16:17] <zewt> yeah, i'm curious as to which discussion led people to decide that the window.URL was OK for web-compat, that's indeed an odd one
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  613. # [16:18] <zcorpan> results for "CSS": web200904: 30, stevef-all: 1
  614. # [16:19] <zewt> (aside, personally I don't care about breaking big things like Yahoo, because big, live users like them should be able to fix things quickly and probably before it even hits production; it's the hoard of tiny, dead, unmaintained pages that are the worry)
  615. # [16:21] <jgraham> zewt: You're not a browser QA, are you :p
  616. # [16:21] <karlcow> heh
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  618. # [16:22] <Ms2ger> Hey, at least it wasn't hotmail
  619. # [16:22] <jgraham> A motto to live by there
  620. # [16:22] <zewt> i think hotmail should be broken as often and as badly as possible
  621. # [16:23] <zewt> ideally with freak bugs that somehow cause the browser to redirect the user to other mail services
  622. # [16:23] <Ms2ger> How about the people with corporate email hosted by hotmail?
  623. # [16:24] <zewt> they should be updating resumes
  624. # [16:24] <Ms2ger> Students whose college email is hosted by hotmail?
  625. # [16:25] <zewt> transfer time
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  627. # [16:25] <zewt> heh, i had a database class in college that turned out to be more like "how to autogenerate SQL using MS Access wizards" :|
  628. # [16:26] <Ms2ger> "Fun"
  629. # [16:26] <zewt> aka "how to learn nothing about databases"
  630. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> help I'm trying to come up with a regexp to express "valid duration string"
  631. # [16:27] <zewt> "duration"?
  632. # [16:27] <jgraham> Oh no! MikeSmith is stuck in a RegExp factory
  633. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> heh
  634. # [16:27] <zewt> sending help
  635. # [16:27] <jgraham> Or, if this is java a RegExpFacrotyFactory
  636. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> help me escape!
  637. # [16:27] <zewt> now you have two problems, etc
  638. # [16:27] * Ms2ger managed to avoid the XHTML + VBA class
  639. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> or send somebody in to kill me now
  640. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> so basic pattern is P[dD][T[hH][mM][s[.s]S]]
  641. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> where all the stuff in brackets it optional
  642. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> BUT it must have at least one of the things in brackets
  643. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> but it doesn't matter which one
  644. # [16:28] <Ms2ger> P[dD()]
  645. # [16:29] <zewt> d_D
  646. # [16:29] <zewt> ___
  647. # [16:29] <zewt> MikeSmith: intuition is "regex is the wrong tool"
  648. # [16:29] <MikeSmith> yeah well
  649. # [16:29] <zewt> maybe there's a non-horrifying way to do it but it isn't occurring to me
  650. # [16:29] <MikeSmith> we're way past that already
  651. # [16:29] <jgraham> Yeah, it sounds like you are way into "now you have two problems" territory
  652. # [16:30] <MikeSmith> I think I just have to OR all the possible combinations
  653. # [16:30] <zewt> (non-horrifying as in not repeating the regex four times, each time with a different item non-optional)
  654. # [16:30] <zewt> afk
  655. # [16:31] <jgraham> OK, two problems was an underestimate
  656. # [16:31] <Ms2ger> N problems
  657. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> private static final Pattern THE_PATTERN =
  658. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> Pattern.compile("^\\p{Zs}*(?:(?:([0-9]{4,})-([0-9]{2})-([0-9]{2})(?:\\p{Zs}*(?:T|\\p{Zs})\\p{Zs}*([0-9]{2}):([0-9]{2})(?::([0-9]{2})(?:\\.[0-9]+)?)?\\p{Zs}*(?:Z|(?:([+-][0-9]{2}):?([0-9]{2})))?)?)|(?:([0-9]{2}):([0-9]{2})(?::([0-9]{2})(?:\\.[0-9]+)?)?\\p{Zs}*(?:Z|(?:([+-][0-9]{2}):?([0-9]{2})))?)|(?:([0-9]{4,})-(W?)([0-9]{2}))|(?:([0-9]{2})-([0-9]{2}))|(?:Z|(?:([+-][0-9]{2}):?([0-9]{2})))|(?:([0-9]+))
  659. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> (?:(P([0-9]+D)?(T(([0-9]+)H)?(([0-9]+)M)?(([0-9]+)(\\.[0-9]{1,3}S)?))?)))\\p{Zs}*$");
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  661. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> is what the full regexp in the code looks like now
  662. # [16:32] <Ms2ger> r-
  663. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> heh
  664. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> for this bad boy: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#datetime-value
  665. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> this stuff is heinous
  666. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> nobody even wants to use the <time> stuff
  667. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> except for weirdos
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  669. # [16:33] <jgraham> Really the people that insist on having this stuff in the spec should code up the validation for it themselves
  670. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> their should be parts of the spec marked with some kind of annotation to say, "This feature for OCD people only."
  671. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> jgraham: they're too busy writing ontologies
  672. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> and troubleshooting XML namespace problems
  673. # [16:34] <Ms2ger> AKA "XML namespaces"
  674. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> and pulling their pants up to their chest
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  696. # [17:34] <Hixie> i would hope UTF-32 and EBCDIC would be non-ASCII compatible...
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  708. # [17:49] <Hixie> MikeSmith: tantek had some reasonably good use cases for <time>
  709. # [17:49] <Hixie> MikeSmith: have him do it :_)
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  713. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I got most of it done now. The first part ended up being not quite as nauseating as I thought'd be
  714. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> now working on the "duration time component" part
  715. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> Hixie: hey btw you saw my question about IANA and application/json+microdata ?
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  741. # [18:38] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  744. # [18:41] <Hixie> MikeSmith: rings a bell, but i don't recall what the question was
  745. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> Hixie: IANA replied to me directly with some questions and comments
  746. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> so I wanted to know if you could respond
  747. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> if I forward the reply to you
  748. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> and Cc some list I guess
  749. # [18:43] <Hixie> sure, though depending on the question i may not give answers they like :-)
  750. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> OK
  751. # [18:44] <Hixie> (e.g. "oh well, it's ok, i don't think we'll be using the iana registry for long" :-P)
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  753. # [18:45] * tantek scrolls up
  754. # [18:45] <tantek> hello MikeSmith and Hixie
  755. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> hey tantek
  756. # [18:47] <tantek> all the features of <time> were based on actual real world publishing examples where things either broke (accessibility problems), or people got them wrong because the alternatives were even more complicated.
  757. # [18:48] <tantek> all the experience came from the microformats community - and we try to avoid ontologies.
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  760. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> OK
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  766. # [18:59] <Hixie> hober: btw if you just right "bug 12345" bugzilla will automatically generate the link
  767. # [18:59] <Hixie> hober: you can also do "bug 12435 comment 6"
  768. # [19:01] <Ms2ger> *write
  769. # [19:02] <Hixie> uh
  770. # [19:02] <Hixie> yeah
  771. # [19:02] <Hixie> -_-
  772. # [19:02] <Ms2ger> And https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/page.cgi?id=linkify.html for previews
  773. # [19:03] <Hixie> huh
  774. # [19:03] <Hixie> when would you want to use that? weird
  775. # [19:05] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i disagree that it would be unwise to inherit parameters
  776. # [19:06] <Ms2ger> Hixie, to test syntax without spamming bugs? :)
  777. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> Hixie: OK
  778. # [19:06] <Hixie> Ms2ger: what is there to test?
  779. # [19:07] <Hixie> MikeSmith: and their comment about the security implications are bogus. If application/json doesn't define them properly, then that should be fixed. There's nothing new in microdata+json re securit.
  780. # [19:07] <Hixie> y
  781. # [19:07] <Hixie> MikeSmith: (in particular, i've no idea what tehy're talking about regarding "active content")
  782. # [19:07] <Ms2ger> To see if "bp-1166c631-aa95-4077-a103-90eed2120413" turns into a link, for example
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  784. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> Hixie: me nt
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  786. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> *me neither :)
  787. # [19:08] <Hixie> MikeSmith: the specification link of course is wrong, it should point to the whatwg spec. :-)
  788. # [19:08] <tantek> Hixie, btw - I've normalized the microformats2 JSON data model to also use the same "items:" array structure as well, type, properties etc. Pretty sure they're now aligned.
  789. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> I had been hoping you'd have some idea
  790. # [19:08] <Hixie> MikeSmith: the "applications" coment makes sense. let me fix that...
  791. # [19:08] <tantek> btw - I have to ask, what's the use-case for a new mimetype for this?
  792. # [19:09] <tantek> that you get above and beyond just sending it as application/json?
  793. # [19:09] <hober> Hixie: thanks
  794. # [19:09] <Hixie> tantek: distinguishing it in drag-and-drop
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  796. # [19:10] <tantek> really? enough people are using drag-and-drop to have run into this?
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  799. # [19:10] * tantek thought web developers had given up on using drag-and-drop
  800. # [19:10] <tantek> due to the unintuitive model etc.
  801. # [19:10] <Hixie> i'm not aware of anyone having even implemented this, so no, but it's hard to see how you could use it if it didn't have its own type.
  802. # [19:10] <Hixie> and having a new type is essentially free
  803. # [19:10] <Hixie> so...
  804. # [19:10] <Hixie> brb
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  806. # [19:11] <tantek> I guess I try to avoid creating new things until someone comes forward with a real world need for it. Even if it does seem theoretically necessary.
  807. # [19:11] * tantek wouldn't be surprised if drag-and-drop was something sufficiently ignored as to eventually be dropped and/or rewritten with a new model.
  808. # [19:12] <tantek> every new thing created has a cost (dialog, review, maintenance, support) - having a new XYZ is never essentially free
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  814. # [19:24] <Hixie> tantek: a new mime type for drag and drop is exceedingly cheap even by web standards
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  816. # [19:24] <Hixie> tantek: i'd be much less surprised to see microdata (and rdfa and so forth) going away than drag and drop :-)
  817. # [19:24] <tantek> FWIW in my experience, nothing to do with IETF/IANA is "cheap".
  818. # [19:25] <Hixie> "nothing to do with IETF/IANA" is exactly right :-)
  819. # [19:28] <Hixie> MikeSmith: ok, i updated the applications line. I disagree with everything else.
  820. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> OK
  821. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> thanks
  822. # [19:28] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i don't intend to worry about it since i think the ietf/iana mime type registration thing is dead
  823. # [19:28] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i expect to do something about it next year sometime
  824. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> hai
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  830. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> OK I finished writing up a validator patch to support datetime value in all its baroqueness
  831. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> and updated the wiki too
  832. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/MicrosyntaxDescriptions#time-datetime
  833. # [19:54] <MikeSmith> will get it into Henri's review queue
  834. # [19:58] <JonathanNeal> At what point would https://github.com/scottjehl/picturefill be more appropriate to polyfill with a <picture> element? Never? Once the spec is at X stage?
  835. # [19:58] <TabAtkins> When at least one browser implements <picture>.
  836. # [19:59] <SamB_MacG5> what the heck is picture?
  837. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> SamB_MacG5: alternative proposal for same use case as srcset
  838. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> responsive images
  839. # [20:00] <JonathanNeal> SamB_MacG5: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-proposals/raw-file/tip/responsive-images/responsive-images.html
  840. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> aka adaptive images
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  842. # [20:03] <JonathanNeal> aka flossy may swanson aka lulu pearl mccloud aka tita chicita juanita
  843. # [20:06] <SamB_MacG5> oh, for retina and such!
  844. # [20:08] <SamB_MacG5> huh, very much under construction I see
  845. # [20:10] <tantek> MikeSmith - yes, dates and times are difficult, welcome to the club. :)
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  847. # [20:10] <SamB_MacG5> also, monolithic regular expressions are unreadable
  848. # [20:11] <MikeSmith> tantek: I'm only a temporary member of the club
  849. # [20:11] <MikeSmith> Killroy was here
  850. # [20:12] <tantek> MikeSmith, glad to have you, even ephemerally :)
  851. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> :-)
  852. # [20:12] <tantek> we are all temporary members of the club, some more or less so.
  853. # [20:12] <SamB_MacG5> Emacs has at *least* three different libraries for building regular expressions in pieces
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  860. # [20:14] <jgraham> SamB_MacG5: Since that was obviously a setup line, I will oblige: emaces has at least 3 different libraries for everything (but no good text editor)
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  862. # [20:14] <jgraham> (actually I use emacs and like it as text editor ;)
  863. # [20:15] <jgraham> (I'm not really an emacs user though; I don't know any elisp at all)
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  865. # [20:15] <jgraham> (note the subtle semantic difference)
  866. # [20:16] <SamB_MacG5> You're supposed to build your own text editor out of it ;-P
  867. # [20:17] <SamB_MacG5> what it really needs is a decent syntax highlighting framework
  868. # [20:17] <say2joe> i have to agree on emacs
  869. # [20:17] <SamB_MacG5> you know, one that actually uses grammars, rather than just highlighting stuff that matches certain regular expressions
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  871. # [20:18] <jgraham> With that in mind hober promised a html-mode based on an actual parser *years* ago
  872. # [20:18] <jgraham> :p
  873. # [20:18] <SamB_MacG5> hey, at least now there's a spec ...
  874. # [20:19] <jgraham> (nxml is famously based on an actual elisp xml parser)
  875. # [20:19] <SamB_MacG5> yes, I know, but that's the *only* such mode I'm positive exists
  876. # [20:19] <SamB_MacG5> er. wait ... yes, js2-mode does parse
  877. # [20:19] <jgraham> Yeah
  878. # [20:19] * SamB_MacG5 was having trouble remembering whether it did or not
  879. # [20:19] <jgraham> (it is also kind of broken, at least versions I used)
  880. # [20:20] <jgraham> (and sometimes decides that you are in the middle of a string)
  881. # [20:20] <SamB_MacG5> hmm, I think maybe it doesn't actually turn off font-lock mode?
  882. # [20:22] <SamB_MacG5> oh, huh, hober seems to have gotten as far as starting on the tokenizer :-(
  883. # [20:22] <SamB_MacG5> two years ago
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  907. # [20:50] <hober> SamB_MacG5: yeah, sorry. it's tough to find time to work on it.
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  909. # [20:50] <SamB_MacG5> hober: that was not intended as a complaint
  910. # [20:51] <SamB_MacG5> I only looked at the repository because of the vague description in el-get's listing
  911. # [20:52] * SamB_MacG5 had been wondering if there was some kind of "look up <foo> in HTML5" tool
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  914. # [20:54] <hober> SamB_MacG5: something like (defun html5-lookup (element) (interactive "sElement: ") (browse-url (format "http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-%s-element" element))) should work
  915. # [20:54] <hober> untested of course
  916. # [20:55] <SamB_MacG5> hober: yeah, I had noticed that there was such a pattern...
  917. # [20:56] <SamB_MacG5> ... too bad there isn't one for the multi-page versions
  918. # [20:56] <Hixie> there's an index :-)
  919. # [20:56] <Hixie> SamB_MacG5: actually for teh multipage version just go to http://whatwg.org/htm/#the-%s-element
  920. # [20:56] <Hixie> er
  921. # [20:56] <Hixie> /html/
  922. # [20:56] <SamB_MacG5> oh really?
  923. # [20:57] <Ms2ger> Yep
  924. # [20:57] <SamB_MacG5> I was thinking that there should be one of those, but I hadn't considered the possibility of it being at the root ;-)
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  926. # [20:58] <Hixie> also http://whatwg.org/c
  927. # [20:58] <Hixie> ("c" for "complete" because for a while /html/ went to a subse)
  928. # [20:58] <Hixie> subset
  929. # [21:00] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.212.155.16)
  930. # [21:00] <SamB_MacG5> I expect the W3C version doesn't have the fancy javascriptery?
  931. # [21:02] * Joins: a-ja (~Instantbi@70.230.166.56)
  932. # [21:04] <Hixie> w3c version is missing a bunch of stuff, see the intro to the whatwg version for a summary
  933. # [21:11] <pablof> are there any examples of overloaded functions in the dom that anyone can think of, besides setRangeText?
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  935. # [21:11] <pablof> overloaded as in different definitions of the same function, which vary in the number of parameters
  936. # [21:12] <Hixie> yeah, there's lots of them
  937. # [21:12] <Hixie> e.g. window.open(), document.open()
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  940. # [21:12] <Hixie> document.open() is especially eggregious
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  945. # [21:16] <pablof> Hixie: indeed, thanks, any others, off the top of your head?
  946. # [21:17] <jgraham> A whole bunch of canvas functions
  947. # [21:17] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure
  948. # [21:18] <jgraham> (document.open would be funny if it wasn't so sad)
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  950. # [21:19] <pablof> canvas indeed, thanks
  951. # [21:19] <jgraham> "what's that? Three parameters? Hmm... I guess you just typoed 'window' to 'document'! Let's do that instead!"
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  953. # [21:22] <Hixie> pablof: yeah, e.g. XMLHttpRequest.send()
  954. # [21:23] <Hixie> pablof: setTimeout() and setInterval()
  955. # [21:23] * jonlee_ is now known as jonlee|afk
  956. # [21:24] <Hixie> HTMLSelectElement.add()
  957. # [21:24] <pablof> found what i needed, thanks everyone!
  958. # [21:24] <Hixie> the Option constructor
  959. # [21:24] <Hixie> there's lots :-)
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  974. # [21:53] * SamB_MacG5 boggles at the mention of Netscape 2 and IE 3 in http://www.quirksmode.org/js/strings.html
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  977. # [21:59] <say2joe> @samb_macg5 not sure that quirksmode.org is updated much these days despite it being a valuable resource… Netscape 2 (I can only remember back to 3)?
  978. # [22:00] <SamB_MacG5> I started out with IE 3.2 and then Netscape 4, I think...
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  983. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> People who started webdev in the last 8 years or so have only had to worry about IE6, I think.
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  985. # [22:17] <Hixie> gotta love how the canonical way of installing "make" on a mac involves downloading a 1.6 gig file
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  990. # [22:28] <ap> Hixie: Just noticed that HTML spec doesn't ever mention respecting Content-Language HTTP header field. Is that intentional? Are browsers allowed to respect it?
  991. # [22:29] <Hixie> it's mentioned somewhere, iirc
  992. # [22:29] <ap> Hixie: I can only find http-equiv
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  994. # [22:29] <Hixie> search for "then language information from a higher-level protocol (such as HTTP)"
  995. # [22:30] <ap> Hixie: thanks
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  997. # [22:31] <ap> Hixie: surprising that pragma wins over HTTP here
  998. # [22:31] * Parts: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.104.99)
  999. # [22:31] <Hixie> *shrug*
  1000. # [22:31] <Hixie> i've long stopped being surprised :-P
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  1002. # [22:33] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  1003. # [22:33] <ap> Hixie: last occurrence of "surprise" on May 8th, 2012, it appears :-P
  1004. # [22:34] <Hixie> :-)
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The end :)