/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-10-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 09 00:00:43 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:02] <zewt> can progressive jpegs please be removed from all jpeg compressors already
  6. # [00:03] <zewt> we're not on 300 baud modems and people keep using it by accident and they make my eyes bleed
  7. # [00:03] <Hixie> ew no
  8. # [00:03] <Hixie> more progressive please
  9. # [00:03] <zewt> "progressive jpeg" doesn't mean "progressive decompression"
  10. # [00:03] <Hixie> i wish every pic would start off as one pixel of colour and then 4 and then 16 and then 64 etc
  11. # [00:03] <Hixie> oh
  12. # [00:03] <Hixie> then nevermind
  13. # [00:04] <zewt> it's analogous to "interlaced" pngs
  14. # [00:04] <zewt> where you get a big hideous blurry blob first
  15. # [00:04] <Hixie> isn't that what i just said i wanted?
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  18. # [00:05] <zewt> dunno, progressive decompression is just "don't wait for the whole image to decompress before showing it", which doesn't require that sort of ugliness
  19. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I'd be interested to see if delta-compressing *that* much would be worthwhile.
  20. # [00:05] <Hixie> i don't want the images to decompress like window shades
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  22. # [00:05] <Hixie> TabAtkins: oh i'm sure it'd be negative compression ratio :-)
  23. # [00:05] <zewt> blurry images hurt my eyes
  24. # [00:05] <Hixie> TabAtkins: at least to do it actually as silly as i describe
  25. # [00:05] <Hixie> zewt: just seeing eyes is even worse
  26. # [00:06] <zewt> if it starts at a non-blurry resolution and goes up from there, maybe okay (eg. upgrading from regular resolution to retina, so to speak)
  27. # [00:06] <Hixie> "regular" is blurry
  28. # [00:06] <zewt> but progressive jpegs start as a big artifacty gross mess
  29. # [00:06] <zewt> (usually)
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  38. # [00:13] <jgraham> paul_irish: Repeating what I already said to karlcow and miketaylr, I think at this point the actual content is so confusing that you should add a big "under construction" gif and (more seriously) add links to the "how we want the site structure to end up" pages to the front page
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  40. # [00:14] <jgraham> It's not really possible to figure out how to help yet because all there is is a big mess of stuff an no obvious coherent structure that it is supposed to be tidied into
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  52. # [00:32] <paul_irish> jgraham: haha so i totally lost the argument that we should put http://codepen.io/joshnh/pen/ohbHl on the site 5 days ago :)
  53. # [00:32] <paul_irish> jgraham: agreed about the IA. thanks for the feedback
  54. # [00:33] <paul_irish> ill start some convos on that
  55. # [00:38] <say2joe> @paul_irish … love the animated gif
  56. # [00:39] <say2joe> (rather the animated gif turned css)
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  58. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> paul_irish: Out of curiosity, what was the point of doing the under-construction thing with CSS rather than a GIF?
  59. # [00:47] <paul_irish> "because", i think..
  60. # [00:48] <paul_irish> turns out its smaller.. but only after gzip.
  61. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Sounds legit.
  62. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Likely slower to render, since we don't fast-path solid shadows yet.
  63. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> At least, in Chrome.
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  65. # [00:58] <Hixie> http://codepen.io/joshnh/pen/ohbHl is seriously messed up
  66. # [00:58] <say2joe> @Hixie: too much coffee?
  67. # [01:00] <annevk> Hixie: using box-shadow or radial gradients via background to draw images is a thing now
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  70. # [01:01] <annevk> Hixie: hopefully at some point the drawing primitives from SVG just move over so it gets less clunky
  71. # [01:01] <annevk> and then we can drop SVG :p
  72. # [01:01] <annevk> -> sleep
  73. # [01:02] <Hixie> i hope it'll go the way of using html tables for bitmaps...
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  105. # [01:32] <Hixie> anyone know how many files are in web200904 ?
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  107. # [01:36] <Hixie> about 600,000 apparently
  108. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> I think just count the number of nulls and divide by 3.
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  110. # [01:37] <Hixie> i wonder what they've been up to since 2009
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  116. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> Crawling more internet, presumably.
  117. # [01:40] <Hixie> you'd think they'd have posted an update in the meantime
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  130. # [02:24] <grom358> Test case: http://pastebin.com/pRUqGS9G .. The spec parses the hello string as the end of the script tag.
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  132. # [02:25] <grom358> that does not seem like the wrong behavior to me
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  134. # [02:28] <grom358> because if the javascript is in external file then you don't get that behavior
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  200. # [07:14] <zewt> what the holy hell
  201. # [07:14] <zewt> firefox went from a regular annoying fullscreen "hit button to exit" notification, to an obnoxious intrusive fullscreen dimming (absurd), and apparently that wasn't stupid enough, since now it opens a dialog on top of the fullscreened page that you have to click away
  202. # [07:15] * zewt switches youtube back to flash; screw it
  203. # [07:16] <zewt> people oversealously contriving make-believe security issues that don't actually exist have taken over all UX design in firefox; 9/11fox
  204. # [07:17] <zewt> end disgusted rant
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  240. # [09:07] <zcorpan> Hixie: +00:10.000 --> 00:04.000 looks wrong
  241. # [09:07] <zcorpan> http://html5.org/r/7442
  242. # [09:08] <zcorpan> Hixie: the example rendering also looks wrong since it doesn't minimize delta
  243. # [09:10] * Parts: a-ja (~Instantbi@70.230.166.56)
  244. # [09:11] <zcorpan> http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/ doesn't follow the style rules for CLA -- the w3c logo isn't in the top left corner
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  247. # [09:15] <zcorpan> s/style rules for CLA/CG report requirements/
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  252. # [09:35] * ashemedai chuckles
  253. # [09:35] <ashemedai> The irony of webplatform.org not passing validation
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  255. # [09:39] <AryehGregor> Where's the correct XHR spec these days?
  256. # [09:39] <AryehGregor> This? http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  257. # [09:39] <AryehGregor> Looks right, last updated yesterday and edited by annevk.
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  262. # [09:50] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: it says *previous* editor is annevk
  263. # [09:50] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: if you want the spec annevk edits, it's http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/
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  265. # [09:51] <AryehGregor> Ah, okay.
  266. # [09:51] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
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  279. # [10:29] <annevk> yeah dunno how that is going to work out...
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  298. # [11:07] <feross> hey, anyone here?
  299. # [11:07] * Quits: mamund (mamund@obsidian.recompiled.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  300. # [11:07] <feross> so, I just wrote this blog post about how to attack the javascript fullscreen api: http://feross.org/html5-fullscreen-api-attack/
  301. # [11:07] <feross> and i realized that this isn't the most effective way to get the api fixed
  302. # [11:08] <feross> it's actually not really an api issue as much as a UX/UI design issue
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  304. # [11:08] <feross> i'm curious what you recommend i do
  305. # [11:09] <feross> file a bug on the spec? file a bunch of browser bugs?
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  308. # [11:18] <AryehGregor> feross, you could post to the spec mailing list. IIRC, the API doesn't allow the page to accept more than highly limited user input in fullscreen mode, so attackers can't actually get them to type anything in without abruptly exiting full-screen mode. Also, Flash has such a feature already and it's not widely used for phishing.
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  312. # [11:19] <feross> AryehGregor: thanks for the reply. i was able to use keyboard input while in fullscreen mode in both firefox and chrome, so despite what the spec says i think that browsers are allowing this to happen. safari blocks keyboard input.
  313. # [11:19] <AryehGregor> The spec doesn't seem to give useful guidance. Definitely a spec bug. http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/fullscreen/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#security-and-privacy-considerations
  314. # [11:20] <AryehGregor> I haven't been following discussions.
  315. # [11:20] <AryehGregor> I'd post to the appropriate spec mailing list.
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  317. # [11:21] <feross> okay, will do that. thanks for the help.
  318. # [11:22] <jgraham> SO I recall there being discussion about this before
  319. # [11:22] <AryehGregor> Needless to say, phishing has been discussed very extensively with this feature, so I'm guessing the people involved will have answers, but I'm not one of them, so I don't. :)
  320. # [11:22] <jgraham> The use case for keyboard input is, of course, fullscreen games
  321. # [11:23] <AryehGregor> Yes, lots and lots of discussion. IIRC, security issues delayed the feature for a lot of time.
  322. # [11:23] * Joins: mamund (mamund@69.163.32.100)
  323. # [11:23] <AryehGregor> jgraham, the idea I saw floated was that most games could make use with a very limited set of keys, like arrow keys and so on, that would be useless to phishers.
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  325. # [11:23] <AryehGregor> Arrows, Enter, space, whatever.
  326. # [11:23] <jgraham> Well that clearly isn't true
  327. # [11:23] <AryehGregor> Ones that wanted more would have to get some type of elevated permission.
  328. # [11:23] <AryehGregor> It's true for a lot of games, like simple platformers.
  329. # [11:24] <AryehGregor> You could allow arrows, Enter, space, and modifier keys with no real problems.
  330. # [11:24] <jgraham> I thought the consensus was that having a clickthrough dialog was enough that keyboard input could be allowed
  331. # [11:24] <jgraham> Sure, but people are trying to do more advanced games on the web
  332. # [11:24] <AryehGregor> I don't remember, I only followed part of the discussions.
  333. # [11:25] <jgraham> What keys does bananabread sdepend on?
  334. # [11:25] <AryehGregor> It seems like the current spec doesn't distinguish between allowing keyboard input and not.
  335. # [11:25] <AryehGregor> Some earlier versions did.
  336. # [11:25] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: games need more than the arrows. e.g. i need about half the keyboard for quake
  337. # [11:25] <AryehGregor> Sure, but a lot of games aren't Quake.
  338. # [11:26] <zcorpan> so?
  339. # [11:26] <AryehGregor> More complicated games certainly need the whole keyboard.
  340. # [11:26] <jgraham> Bananabread already uses way more keys
  341. # [11:26] <AryehGregor> So the games that don't need much of the keyboard could get away with less annoying security stuff.
  342. # [11:26] <AryehGregor> The ones that do can opt in to more annoying security stuff.
  343. # [11:26] <AryehGregor> That's what an earlier API version did.
  344. # [11:26] <AryehGregor> Seems the current one doesn't.
  345. # [11:28] <zcorpan> yeah ok. i recall that being proposed
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  347. # [11:28] <jgraham> I'm not sure "make the experience simpler for a subset of use cases" is a winning proposition compared to "make the experience consistent across all use cases"
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  349. # [11:28] <AryehGregor> It seems the conclusion was to agree with you.
  350. # [11:28] <AryehGregor> Doesn't that kind of stink for, e.g., full-screen video?
  351. # [11:29] <AryehGregor> Or is the idea that that gets special-cased somehow, using nonstandard magic?
  352. # [11:29] * vidu is now known as viduthalai1947
  353. # [11:29] <zcorpan> if the user trusts youtube.com, he can always allow youtube.com
  354. # [11:29] <jgraham> (do video players typically use more than just arrow keys for keyboard a11y?)
  355. # [11:29] <jgraham> Plus tab, plus modifiers
  356. # [11:30] <AryehGregor> Dunno.
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  358. # [11:32] <jgraham> Seems like youtube also supports 0-9 to move to various points in the video + home + end
  359. # [11:32] <jgraham> (and space)
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  361. # [11:45] <annevk> AryehGregor: I kinda think keyboard input should work, if it's made clear to the user that he entered fullscreen and that he can exit it, it should all be okay...
  362. # [11:46] <AryehGregor> It's pretty easy to get a substantial fraction of users to not notice that they entered fullscreen.
  363. # [11:46] <AryehGregor> Even if 90% will spot it, that doesn't matter -- phishing is cheap, and you still get the 10%.
  364. # [11:47] <AryehGregor> More generally, Flash already has fullscreen and it doesn't seem to have caused catastrophic security failures. If we match its features, we don't have to worry much. If we're more liberal, like allowing unrestricted keyboard input when Flash doesn't (does it?), that's a lot riskier because it's uncharted territory.
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  366. # [11:51] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  367. # [11:56] <annevk> crippling functionality of the web platform lets proprietary platforms take over; it's not exactly a zero-sum game
  368. # [11:58] <ShaneHudson> Is the WHATWG involved in this new wiki the W3C have created? Looks nice a nice site to destroy w3schools!
  369. # [11:58] <AryehGregor> No, but I don't think "it's made clear to the user" is good enough by itself. A substantial number of users aren't going to even know what "fullscreen" means. The web is used by lots of people who aren't so clever with computers, or just aren't paying attention in the slightest.
  370. # [11:58] <AryehGregor> Anyway, I'll leave that up to the implementers. They have security teams for a reason.
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  372. # [12:05] <jgraham> I like the fact that the TPAC site says "Remember: do not microblog W3C Member confidential matters". Presumably those looking to leak sekrits should write full blog entries.
  373. # [12:14] <darobin> jgraham: it's just based on experience. People don't blog confidential stuff, but they mistakenly livetweet stuff
  374. # [12:14] <darobin> not that there's all that much confidential stuff going on in the first place — finding something to leak is actually hard work :)
  375. # [12:16] <jgraham> s/microblog/publish/ sould make the whole thing less silly
  376. # [12:17] <jgraham> *would
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  379. # [12:18] <darobin> in fairness, I think that not caring about such trivial details would be less silly
  380. # [12:21] <jgraham> Me? Well maybe, but I doubt I am the only one that would find it faintly ridiculous that there is a swpecific admonishment for "microblogging" but not for any other form of communication
  381. # [12:21] <jgraham> Is HTMLImageElement.complete too difficult an example to use for explaining testharness.js? Pros: has obvious list of cases, has sync and async cases. Cons: Slightly obscure, depends on networking, one case is pretty hard to test, only really uses assert_true
  382. # [12:24] <jgraham> low
  383. # [12:24] <jgraham> Ohh, focus doesn't follow brain
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  394. # [12:48] <zcorpan> jgraham: .complete is pretty unique in that it can change value while script is running
  395. # [12:49] <zcorpan> (is that needed for web compat? or did we just blindly copy ie?)
  396. # [12:49] <jgraham> Yeah, that's kind of icky
  397. # [12:49] <jgraham> One reason I don't like
  398. # [12:49] <jgraham> it
  399. # [12:51] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@111-250-121-76.dynamic.hinet.net) (Quit: JohnAlbin)
  400. # [12:51] <jgraham> But I am not doing well thinking of a better alternative that naturally has sync and async parts
  401. # [12:52] <jgraham> Everything to do with <iframe>s is whacked beyond belief
  402. # [12:52] <jgraham> Maybe localStorage?
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  406. # [12:54] <zcorpan> seems chrome doesn't update it while script is running. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1828
  407. # [12:54] * zcorpan files spec bug
  408. # [12:56] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19388
  409. # [12:56] <jgraham> It also didn't update it in the timeout for me…
  410. # [12:56] <zcorpan> does for me
  411. # [12:56] <zcorpan> might be racy?
  412. # [12:57] <jgraham> yeah, seems to be OK if you increase the timeout to 10ms
  413. # [12:58] <zcorpan> maybe it doesn't decode the image until it paints it, i.e. until the second alert is discarded, and then there's a race between the timeout and image decode
  414. # [12:58] <zcorpan> or something, i'm just guessing here
  415. # [12:58] <jgraham> Better to write that test using sync XHR than alert, I think
  416. # [12:58] <jgraham> Or maybe even just a loop
  417. # [13:00] <jgraham> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1829
  418. # [13:00] <jgraham> Huh?
  419. # [13:00] <jgraham> Gecko is giving false everywhere
  420. # [13:01] <jgraham> Turns out that this is a really interesting case :)
  421. # [13:01] <zcorpan> yeah, was just going to say. but it doesn't do that with my version
  422. # [13:02] <jgraham> Right, but alert is special sauce in gecko
  423. # [13:02] <zcorpan> yes
  424. # [13:03] <jgraham> Makes everything taste weird
  425. # [13:03] <zcorpan> it seems interesting to test how things interact with alert
  426. # [13:04] <zcorpan> and sync xhr..
  427. # [13:05] <jgraham> sync XHR gives the same result as alert
  428. # [13:05] <jgraham> In gecko
  429. # [13:05] <zcorpan> jgraham: why do you need a feature with both sync and async? why not use separate features?
  430. # [13:07] <jgraham> zcorpan: Just seems easier to give the presentation an overall arc
  431. # [13:07] <zcorpan> ok
  432. # [13:08] <zcorpan> use <script>!
  433. # [13:08] <jgraham> "Here's a simple case, here's a more complex case (this is the point at which people stop listening) this is a convenience function, these are some general principles to keep in mind"
  434. # [13:08] <jgraham> Haha
  435. # [13:09] * Joins: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@111-250-121-76.dynamic.hinet.net)
  436. # [13:10] <jgraham> Homework: write a testsuite for <script> scheduling. Bonus credit for <script> + XSLT
  437. # [13:11] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@111-250-121-76.dynamic.hinet.net) (Client Quit)
  438. # [13:11] <AryehGregor> darobin, I'm getting an error when trying to run pegjs in webidl.js: Error: require.paths is removed. Use node_modules folders, or the NODE_PATH environment variable instead.
  439. # [13:11] <AryehGregor> Any idea what's up with that?
  440. # [13:12] <darobin> AryehGregor: I haven't touched that code in a while, so sadly no
  441. # [13:12] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait.
  442. # [13:12] <AryehGregor> I think I see.
  443. # [13:12] <AryehGregor> It was looking at an outdated local version.
  444. # [13:12] <darobin> but I know what the error is: something is using require.paths and it really shouldn't
  445. # [13:12] <darobin> ah, good
  446. # [13:12] <zcorpan> jgraham: :-)
  447. # [13:13] <darobin> AryehGregor: I'll be updating webidl.js as soon as the HTML WG gets into full testing crunch, i.e. hopefully pretty soon
  448. # [13:13] <AryehGregor> darobin, good to hear.
  449. # [13:13] * darobin has to jump out, bbiab sorry
  450. # [13:14] * jgraham hopes darobin's parachute opens
  451. # [13:14] * Joins: Yitro (~yitro@124-149-160-245.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  452. # [13:15] <AryehGregor> darobin, I just submitted a one-line pull request for you.
  453. # [13:15] * AryehGregor is reminded how vastly better git is than hg
  454. # [13:16] <zcorpan> jgraham: i'm having a hard time finding an api that isn't totally quirky and complex and has both sync and async parts
  455. # [13:16] <jgraham> Not just me then
  456. # [13:18] <jgraham> But what about localStorage? Or maybe I shoudl go for the simple parts of img.complete and then suggest that there is potential to do the more complex part and turn it into a full testsuite during the hack parts of ttwf
  457. # [13:21] <zcorpan> localStorage seems ok
  458. # [13:21] <zcorpan> can involve subframes if you want to show how that's done
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  462. # [13:36] <paul_irish> hsivonen: there were policy decisions made at moz that disallowed importing MDN.
  463. # [13:37] <zcorpan> zewt: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/xhr/raw-file/tip/Overview.html is also out of date, as it happens :-P
  464. # [13:37] <darobin> AryehGregor: PR merged, thanks!
  465. # [13:37] <AryehGregor> darobin, thanks!
  466. # [13:38] <darobin> no, thanks to you :)
  467. # [13:38] <darobin> hg? I thought only Ms2ger and W3C still used that
  468. # [13:40] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@212.238.236.229)
  469. # [13:41] <AryehGregor> Sadly, I deal with the W3C a lot. :(
  470. # [13:41] <AryehGregor> Also, Mozilla does, and I haven't switched to the git mirrors yet.
  471. # [13:44] <annevk> yeah I don't really get the reverse xhr forking
  472. # [13:44] <annevk> not really sure what their plan is either
  473. # [13:46] <annevk> hmm
  474. # [13:50] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|gump
  475. # [13:51] <darobin> AryehGregor: any group that makes you use hg, don't hesitate to ask that it moves to GH
  476. # [13:51] <AryehGregor> darobin, do you think it would make sense to make things like .members or .inheritance be empty arrays instead of null if they're not present?
  477. # [13:52] <AryehGregor> GH?
  478. # [13:52] <darobin> GitHub
  479. # [13:52] <darobin> AryehGregor: yeah, I think that would make sense, there's not useful distinction between null and empty here and it would help code against the API
  480. # [13:53] <AryehGregor> Sounds great.
  481. # [13:53] * AryehGregor will probably write a patch soon, but is in the middle of something else
  482. # [13:53] <AryehGregor> (namely, documenting idlharness.js)
  483. # [13:53] <darobin> or, you know, if you're the primary committer to something that a WG is doing, you can just move to GH and tell them later...
  484. # [13:53] <darobin> whee, more docs!
  485. # [13:55] * Joins: BennyLava` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
  486. # [13:56] <odinho> 13:42 < AryehGregor> (namely, documenting idlharness.js) <3
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  489. # [14:01] <hsivonen> paul_irish: the policy decision of having used ShareAlike or something else?
  490. # [14:02] <hsivonen> paul_irish: on your blog post, you mentioned MDN, Wikipedia and Stackoverflow. All of those are SA, so deciding not to make WebPlatform.org SA is the policy decision that prevents importing from any of them.
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  494. # [14:19] <divya> hsivonen: why is SA necessary.
  495. # [14:19] <divya> hsivonen: also where is license info for webplatform.org
  496. # [14:20] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, so that things can be imported from other sources that use SA, presumably.
  497. # [14:25] <hsivonen> divya: MDN, Wikipedia and Stackoverflow have SA, so SA is necessary to import content from them
  498. # [14:26] <hsivonen> divya: it seems like a tremendously bad use of contributor time to re-express SA content in order to clean it of copyright and, therefore, copyleft. See half-day tasks: http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:Getting_Started
  499. # [14:28] <divya> hsivonen: it seems right now MDN turns a blind eye to scraped content that is not rendered in CC-BY-SA
  500. # [14:28] <divya> hsivonen: I was not aware they need to re-express SA content
  501. # [14:28] <divya> i assumed they could just scrape it.
  502. # [14:29] <jgraham> That wouldn't be SQ though
  503. # [14:29] <jgraham> *SA
  504. # [14:29] <hsivonen> divya: failure to enforce previously (I’m taking you at your word) doesn’t mean that it’s reasonable for webplatform.org to rely on being able to violate a license
  505. # [14:29] <divya> hsivonen: i didnt know about SA restrictions.
  506. # [14:30] <divya> ideally this content should be free to use by whoever where-ever
  507. # [14:30] <divya> i would love for commercial products to rely on this for their documentation.
  508. # [14:30] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@203.196.177.156)
  509. # [14:30] <hsivonen> CC-BY-SA allows the use in commercial docs
  510. # [14:30] <divya> how so? if it is 'share alike'
  511. # [14:30] <divya> what use is restricted?
  512. # [14:31] <hsivonen> divya: you have to share alike but you can use it for commercial purposes
  513. # [14:31] <hsivonen> divya: NC is the license component that’s non-Free and prohibits commercial use
  514. # [14:31] * divya wikis
  515. # [14:31] <hsivonen> (Opera’s curriculum was CC-BY-SA-NC)
  516. # [14:32] * Quits: gavin__ (~gavin@76.14.87.162) (Remote host closed the connection)
  517. # [14:32] <divya> right so Share Alike means you must use sam licensing
  518. # [14:33] <hsivonen> divya: right. but the license doesn’t prohibit commercial use
  519. # [14:33] <divya> +e
  520. # [14:33] <divya> yeah but i do not think that is worth enforcing, especially given companies have preferences for different licenses.
  521. # [14:33] <divya> either way, well we need to fix this licensing thing.
  522. # [14:34] * Joins: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251)
  523. # [14:34] <divya> i honestly think CC-BY-SA is a model that would make companies baulk at using content from that source.
  524. # [14:35] <divya> have had experiences with it at Adobe.
  525. # [14:35] <hsivonen> divya: plenty of companies seem to be OK with shipping a copyleft kernel on their phones
  526. # [14:35] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  527. # [14:36] <hsivonen> divya: the first copyleft-licensed Adobe thing I can think of is the Source Sans font
  528. # [14:36] <hsivonen> the first I can think of that is
  529. # [14:36] <divya> what is 'copy-left'?
  530. # [14:36] <hsivonen> not necessarily Adobe’s first
  531. # [14:37] <hsivonen> divya: the concept of share alike more generally than the CC ShareAlike in particular
  532. # [14:37] <jgraham> divya: SA
  533. # [14:37] <AryehGregor> So in JavaScript, how can I do something like a derived class calling a base class' constructor? I currently have A and B, where A.prototype and B.prototype both have C.prototype as their prototype. I want new A() and new B() to have the same effect.
  534. # [14:38] <divya> hsivonen: i thought it was apache license. no?
  535. # [14:38] <AryehGregor> I guess I could do function A() { C.call(this); }.
  536. # [14:38] <AryehGregor> Hmm, yeah, let me do that.
  537. # [14:38] <divya> bah its some other license called open font license.
  538. # [14:39] <hsivonen> divya: right
  539. # [14:40] <hsivonen> oh and Adobe seems to be distributing WebKit, parts of which are also copylefted
  540. # [14:40] <divya> hsivonen: yeah seems SA from reading the open font license.
  541. # [14:40] <divya> hsivonen: all i am saying is lawyers @ adobe do not like using licenses that are not the licenses they recommend.
  542. # [14:41] <divya> unless it goes through a long process of review and then figuring out if it is worth the risk
  543. # [14:41] <divya> i am sure companies like mozilla, adobe, apple have $$$s to go through such reviews
  544. # [14:41] <divya> not many companies do.
  545. # [14:41] <divya> so having it a 'share-alike' means some small companies either just risk it or do not bother.
  546. # [14:42] <divya> individuals dont give a damn of course.
  547. # [14:42] <hsivonen> my point is that Mozilla doesn’t own the copyright on all MDN content, StackExchange doesn’t for StackOverflow conten and Wikimedia doesn’t for Wikipedia, so you can’t just get SA waivers from a handful of parties to import content
  548. # [14:42] <divya> yeah it is unfortunate. I do not think SE content can be imported per se anyway.
  549. # [14:43] <divya> licensing suckss
  550. # [14:43] <hsivonen> to me, it would make sense to prefer compatibility with the existing body of potentially importable content than to prefer compatibility with the sensibilities of *potential* contributors
  551. # [14:45] <divya> i understand the cost of existing compatibility is significantly lesser, but we should worry about the cost of this model after a few months and finding how it is working or not.
  552. # [14:46] <zcorpan> why is a new header not better for <http://www.w3.org/mid/op.wlwusmc2a3v5gv@hr-desk> ?
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  555. # [14:52] <AryehGregor> darobin, would you be okay with me breaking up some of the long lines in grammar.peg as I make other changes? It's hard to read diffs with lines that long.
  556. # [14:55] <darobin> AryehGregor: I'm okay with you changing whatever you need for this to be easier for you man
  557. # [14:55] <AryehGregor> darobin, okay, great.
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  564. # [15:08] <zcorpan> zewt: isn't it up to browsers' decoders to decide at which level of blurriness they want to start showing the image?
  565. # [15:11] * attiks|away is now known as attiks
  566. # [15:14] * abstractj|gump is now known as abstractj
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  570. # [15:25] <shepazu> hsivonen: I made the call on WebPlatform using CC-BY, rather than CC-BY-SA, and I still believe it is the right one. Yes, it will take more time and effort to build the content up to a great state, but once we get there, the content will be much more reusable, without the confusion of SA
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  573. # [15:31] <zcorpan> why was Array.isArray introduced? isn't it nonsensical to introduce sugar for *one* kind of object while not solving the problem for all other kinds?
  574. # [15:32] * Joins: danzik17 (~danzik17@164.55.254.106)
  575. # [15:32] <annevk> zcorpan: I think the problem was only with arrays
  576. # [15:33] * Joins: thisgeek (~chris@ool-45757d25.dyn.optonline.net)
  577. # [15:33] <zcorpan> really? then what was the problem?
  578. # [15:33] <annevk> javascript:typeof []
  579. # [15:33] <annevk> I think
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  581. # [15:34] <zcorpan> Object.prototype.toString.call([]) === '[object Array]'
  582. # [15:36] <zcorpan> http://www.adobe.com/devnet/html5/articles/categorizing-values-in-javascript.html says isArray was introduced because of the different global objects problem, but that still applies for all other objects
  583. # [15:37] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@24-212-206-174.cable.teksavvy.com)
  584. # [15:37] <annevk> http://web.mit.edu/jwalden/www/isArray.html explains
  585. # [15:38] <annevk> ' One test in this style is Object.prototype.toString.call(o) === "[object Array]", but that relies on Object.prototype.toString and Function.prototype.call not being changed (probably a good assumption but still fragile). It's also a bit more of an obvious hack than any of the other ideas.'
  586. # [15:41] <zcorpan> ah. that's true. but doesn't explain why it was only solved for arrays
  587. # [15:42] <hsivonen> shepazu: thanks
  588. # [15:42] <hsivonen> shepazu: for saying it was you—not for the call to choose CC-BY
  589. # [15:43] <annevk> zcorpan: typeof works for the other cases?
  590. # [15:43] <zcorpan> annevk: no? typeof is not useful for differentiating different objects
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  593. # [15:45] <shepazu> hsivonen: uh… you're welcome?
  594. # [15:46] <shepazu> not sure what you meant by that :)
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  597. # [15:48] <shepazu> to be honest, I found it disconcerting to see complaints in this channel, taking a position against the more open option, for a more restrictive content license
  598. # [15:49] <annevk> lets not generalise shepazu
  599. # [15:49] <hsivonen> shepazu: I just meant avoiding the confusion of looking like I was thanking for the license choice
  600. # [15:49] <annevk> shepazu: e.g. http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20121008#l-10
  601. # [15:50] <hsivonen> shepazu: I just think it’s a terrible waste of time to rewrite stuff to work around a license instead of going with what’s established out there
  602. # [15:50] <shepazu> like HTML5? :D
  603. # [15:51] <darobin> ouch, burn!
  604. # [15:51] <hsivonen> shepazu: from my point of view, this is another bad licensing call by the W3C
  605. # [15:51] <zcorpan> html5 wasn't rewritten to work around a license. it was rewritten because html4 was like w3schools
  606. # [15:51] <shepazu> annevk: I didn't mean to generalize… I meant "some complaints" not "all complaints"
  607. # [15:51] <darobin> <annevk> lets not generalise shepazu # yeah, having one of those is enough
  608. # [15:52] * shepazu SHEPAZU ALL THE THINGS!
  609. # [15:52] <annevk> I think only hsivonen and I complained, and argued opposite sides
  610. # [15:52] <annevk> ;)
  611. # [15:53] <hsivonen> I don’t mind webplatform.org using CC-BY or CC0 even for new content
  612. # [15:53] <annevk> and I'm just calling it out because everytime someone says something here, someone broadcasts it to the outside as "the WHATWG has spoken..."
  613. # [15:53] <shepazu> annevk: that seems quite consistent with your general philosophy on licensing :)
  614. # [15:53] <hsivonen> I just think it’s terribly wasteful not to be able to import from MDN, Wikipedia or StackOverflow
  615. # [15:53] <shepazu> annevk: fair enough, but I know better
  616. # [15:54] <shepazu> hsivonen: and with all due respect to those fine sites, which I admire, I think the mistake was on their part in choosing restrictive licenses
  617. # [15:54] <shepazu> I think we made the right call for the future use of the content
  618. # [15:55] <annevk> could we not have gone for new content in the public domain? and try to move there over time reusing the existing content under their more restrictive licensing?
  619. # [15:55] <annevk> I guess time will tell how it goes
  620. # [15:55] <shepazu> annevk: yes, but that would dramatically complicate and confuse things
  621. # [15:55] <hsivonen> shepazu: CC0 avoids the confusion
  622. # [15:56] <shepazu> CC0 provides less incentive to contribute for many people who like a little recognition
  623. # [15:56] <shepazu> but yes, we considered that
  624. # [15:56] <shepazu> code is all CC0, btw
  625. # [15:57] <hsivonen> shepazu: you really want attribution to individual authors and not just to webplatform.org?
  626. # [15:57] <hsivonen> shepazu: yay for CC0 code
  627. # [15:57] <shepazu> hsivonen: for commercial uses, yes, lists of authors, not just wpd
  628. # [15:57] <shepazu> it's only fair
  629. # [15:57] <hsivonen> also terribly impractical in the long run
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  631. # [15:58] <shepazu> we've already got a ton of interest in improving this site, so I think in 6-12 months the site will not suffer for a lack of imported content
  632. # [15:58] * Joins: thisgeek (~chris@ool-45757d25.dyn.optonline.net)
  633. # [15:58] <shepazu> hsivonen: depends how it's managed
  634. # [15:58] <annevk> well, I still acknowledge contribution to specs even though they're licensed under CC0, fwiw
  635. # [15:59] <annevk> don't really need to cater to that through licensing
  636. # [15:59] <shepazu> annevk: that's because you're trying to be a good player, not eveyone would be
  637. # [15:59] <shepazu> license are not there for good players, they are there for the exceptions
  638. # [16:00] <shepazu> anyway, thanks for the interesting discussion! I have some work to do
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  640. # [16:03] <AryehGregor> darobin, it looks like WebIDL doesn't support multiple inheritance, but the parser does -- is there a reason for that? Did WebIDL used to support multiple inheritance? Can I remove parser support, or do we have to worry that that will break things?
  641. # [16:03] <jgraham> I think WebIDL did used to support it
  642. # [16:03] <jgraham> But I might be wrong
  643. # [16:04] <divya> zcorpan: !!!! you never reply https://github.com/h5bp/html5please/issues/194
  644. # [16:04] <zcorpan> divya: indeed
  645. # [16:04] * BennyLava` is now known as BennyLava
  646. # [16:05] <divya> just gimme the words and i will replace zcorpan i do not know enough about it to work on it!
  647. # [16:06] <zcorpan> i'm looking at it now
  648. # [16:06] <divya> thanks zcorpan !!
  649. # [16:06] <darobin> AryehGregor: WebIDL used to support it, I think there's still some IDL out there that uses it
  650. # [16:06] <AryehGregor> darobin, okay, I'll leave support in the parser.
  651. # [16:07] <darobin> part of the problem is whether these old things should be removed, or if we still want to parse old IDLs
  652. # [16:07] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@203.196.177.156) (Remote host closed the connection)
  653. # [16:07] <AryehGregor> Inheritance
  654. # [16:07] <AryehGregor> = herit:InheritanceInner?
  655. # [16:07] <AryehGregor> { return herit ? herit : []; }
  656. # [16:08] <AryehGregor> darobin, do you know of a better way in general to do that?
  657. # [16:08] <darobin> AryehGregor: mmmm, not that I can think of off the top of my head
  658. # [16:08] <AryehGregor> It seems like if I try this, I get an error because "herit" is undefined: Inheritance = (":" w herit:ScopedNameList)? { return herit ? herit : []; }
  659. # [16:08] <AryehGregor> Okay.
  660. # [16:08] <darobin> but then again I'm not a PEG expert, I just picked it up because I needed a Q&D WebIDL parser in a hurry for a project
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  662. # [16:09] <darobin> hmpf, I'd expect PEG to pass herit = null there...
  663. # [16:09] <darobin> oh, no, I remember now
  664. # [16:09] <darobin> when you have a Foo?, if it doesn't match then the variable is undefined
  665. # [16:09] <darobin> which really sucks
  666. # [16:10] <darobin> you need to test that herit is defined
  667. # [16:10] <darobin> I think that when I get around to this I'll rewrite without PEG — it'll make for something faster, too
  668. # [16:12] <AryehGregor> typeof herit == "undefined" seems to break things in weird ways.
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  670. # [16:17] <zcorpan> divya: replied
  671. # [16:18] <divya> thanks zcorpan !!
  672. # [16:19] <darobin> AryehGregor: I'm doing something else at this second, but the way I've tracked these things down before has been to look at the generated code to see why it's weird
  673. # [16:19] <AryehGregor> I looked, and didn't see any mention of the label.
  674. # [16:19] <AryehGregor> In the code.
  675. # [16:19] <AryehGregor> But this way works, so good enough for me.
  676. # [16:19] <darobin> if it works, then great
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  682. # [16:31] <annevk> Is it time to admit defeat on initCustomEvent?
  683. # [16:31] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15259
  684. # [16:39] <annevk> so I want to add new Document()
  685. # [16:39] <annevk> but the age-old what argument is it going to take thing pops up
  686. # [16:40] <annevk> I guess I'll just add it without argument and then let people debate that bit :)
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  689. # [16:43] <zcorpan> divya: i forgot to mention that web developers of course can opt to not rely on flash or java for any functionality
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  700. # [16:54] <annevk> jQuery also calls it timeStamp
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  707. # [17:08] <jgraham> I hate mercurial
  708. # [17:08] * jgraham again trys to work out how do squash a few changesets together
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  716. # [17:21] <jgraham> Oh Sweet Jesus
  717. # [17:21] <jgraham> So I just tried to use hg histedit to do this
  718. # [17:21] <jgraham> and it deleted all the files
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  733. # [17:58] <marcosc_> Question: with the img@srcset attribute, it's not clear to me how commas are handled in a candidate image string's path, fragment, and query. Like, for example: <img srcset="generate.php?x=1,w,x23&title=hello, generate.php?y=3,32,23&title=hello x2">
  734. # [18:03] <annevk> Ms2ger: http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-document
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  737. # [18:07] <zewt> marcosc_: at least one descriptor always exists; the space between the url and the descriptor ends the url
  738. # [18:08] <zewt> see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#processing-the-image-candidates for particulars
  739. # [18:09] <tantek> jgraham does hg have a "-undo" option?
  740. # [18:09] <marcosc_> zewt: thanks
  741. # [18:09] <jgraham> tantek: It turned out that the files were still in history
  742. # [18:09] <jgraham> But it had made a commit that deleted them
  743. # [18:09] <zewt> heh, when I'm using git I make wholesale cp -a backups a lot
  744. # [18:10] <jgraham> and then refused to do anything else, possibly because I was in a path that no longer existed
  745. # [18:10] <jgraham> In the end I managed to invoke some mq magic to do what I needed
  746. # [18:11] <jgraham> But it realy does seem like everything slightly advanced is a minefield in mercurial
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  768. # [18:34] <marcosc_> annevk, are you still maintaining: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html ?
  769. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> marcosc_, no, we edit dom.spec.whatwg.org now
  770. # [18:34] <marcosc_> Ms2ger: ok, cool. Maybe add a note to the W3C one :)
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  772. # [18:38] <annevk> marcosc_: https://twitter.com/annevk/status/250503261138849792
  773. # [18:39] <annevk> (took me longer to find that tweet to not repeat myself than it would be to just answer...)
  774. # [18:39] <annevk> marcosc_: yeah, Ms2ger, if you can add that note; I guess you're still allowed
  775. # [18:40] <annevk> marcosc_: fwiw, https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/url/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  776. # [18:40] <annevk> marcosc_: has happened before
  777. # [18:40] <marcosc_> exactly like that would be awesome
  778. # [18:40] <annevk> it's not gonna be me
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  780. # [18:40] <Ms2ger> <title class="now3c">Moved</title>
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  807. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> annevk, how do you test what the name of an encoding should be? I get "UTF-8" for document.characterSet in Gecko/WebKit, and seemingly "utf-8" in Opera (except in a different test it returns the empty string), and "unicode" in IE.
  808. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> Spec seems to suggest "utf-8"; "UTF-8" seems like it makes more sense.
  809. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> (if that's the data source you're using)
  810. # [19:09] <annevk> AryehGregor: the spec does indeed suggest all lowercase
  811. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> Any reason for that, given existing browsers' behavior?
  812. # [19:09] <annevk> AryehGregor: hope we could make that work?
  813. # [19:10] <AryehGregor> Why is it worth it? Just go with uppercase.
  814. # [19:10] <annevk> AryehGregor: string identifiers are always lowercase
  815. # [19:10] <AryehGregor> Well, it's an acronym.
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  818. # [19:10] <AryehGregor> Also: tagName.
  819. # [19:10] <annevk> AryehGregor: well not all is uppercase I think; e.g. windows-1252 would be Windows-1252 or some such
  820. # [19:10] <AryehGregor> Probably.
  821. # [19:10] <annevk> AryehGregor: tagName is obsoleted with localName
  822. # [19:10] <annevk> anyway, I don't feel that strongly and am taking patches or suggested renaming if you think that'll be better
  823. # [19:11] <annevk> could you please file a bug?
  824. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> I just don't want to write tests for a spec that needlessly doesn't match browsers. I'm not testing the whole spec, but I want some test or other for .characterSet in some DOM tests I'm writing right now.
  825. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> Sure.
  826. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> Where? I don't see an Encoding component in the W3C Bugzilla.
  827. # [19:12] <annevk> is it not under WHATWG?
  828. # [19:12] <AryehGregor> Oh, I see.
  829. # [19:12] <annevk> it's linked from the spec too I think
  830. # [19:12] <annevk> you're reading http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/ right?
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  832. # [19:12] <annevk> gotta go
  833. # [19:12] <AryehGregor> Yeah.
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  849. # [19:22] <annevk> AryehGregor: ah, so you're not gonna test all of them?
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  851. # [19:24] <annevk> TabAtkins: your twitter handle makes me laugh every time
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  856. # [19:35] <arv> annevk: I'm implementing MutationObservers based on the spec and generally everything works and matches Gecko and WebKit. However, there is one issue. When appending a record to the queue both Gecko and WebKit replaces the last record if it represents the same mutation and the new record has an oldValue.
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  858. # [19:35] <annevk> how does that happen?
  859. # [19:35] <annevk> also, a bug + changes requested would be a big help, not gonna be able to do much more today
  860. # [19:35] <arv> annevk: OK. I'll file a bug with a test case
  861. # [19:36] <annevk> thanks arv!
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  863. # [19:39] <AryehGregor> annevk, I'd be happy to test all of them. I can write a little harness that uses a simple data structure for all the encoding maps that you can keep updated along with the spec.
  864. # [19:39] <AryehGregor> It's just not what I was testing just now.
  865. # [19:40] <AryehGregor> (I was doing simple tests on properties of Node and its various derived interfaces.)
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  868. # [19:41] <annevk> that sounds sweet
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  870. # [19:41] <annevk> I saw hsivonen might do some work on encodings too for Gecko
  871. # [19:43] <annevk> I'm happy to help out too btw, getting browsers aligned on byte -> code point mapping would be a great improvement
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  879. # [19:50] * Ms2ger tries to remember what he was trying to fix about NoInterfaceObject
  880. # Session Close: Tue Oct 09 19:53:19 2012
  881. #
  882. # Session Start: Tue Oct 09 19:53:19 2012
  883. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  884. # [19:53] * Disconnected
  885. # [19:54] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  886. # [19:54] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  887. # [19:54] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  888. # [19:54] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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  894. # [20:07] <Ms2ger> Huh
  895. # [20:07] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, yt?
  896. # [20:07] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, yep.
  897. # [20:07] <AryehGregor> (probably not for too much longer, though)
  898. # [20:08] <Ms2ger> I'm looking at IdlInterface.prototype.test_self
  899. # [20:08] <AryehGregor> Okay.
  900. # [20:09] <Ms2ger> Oh
  901. # [20:09] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: http://mhausenblas.info/#i says TTYL)
  902. # [20:09] <Ms2ger> I thought you were testing Object.getOwnPropertyDescriptor(window, this.name) twice
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  904. # [20:09] <Ms2ger> But the other one was for Object.getOwnPropertyDescriptor(window[this.name], "prototype")
  905. # [20:11] <Ms2ger> Might be nice if we could make those asserts a little less verbose
  906. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> Like a wrapper of some type, yeah.
  907. # [20:12] * jonlee_ is now known as jonlee
  908. # [20:14] <AryehGregor> It could also do more rigorous tests, like actually trying to write and seeing if it succeeds.
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  910. # [20:18] <Ms2ger> Yeah, but that'll need more code to (try to) revert the changes
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  1017. # [23:43] <annevk> karlcow: I would have expected you to describe http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2012Oct/0063 as beautiful, not ironic, since you like crazy stuff
  1018. # [23:45] <karlcow> what is amazing in that email is the misguided labeling and rudeness. Like the person being ballistic on me on really the wrong person.
  1019. # [23:45] <karlcow> I don't get it
  1020. # [23:45] <annevk> going ballistic on people is generally best avoided
  1021. # [23:46] <annevk> karlcow: I also love how he transforms <i> to <em> and apparently considers himself an expert :-)
  1022. # [23:47] <karlcow> double irony when I have managed my own entire Web site for a few years with XHTML 1.0 + XSLT
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  1026. # [23:48] <Hixie> wow, why did i follow that link
  1027. # [23:48] <annevk> Hixie: dude www-tag should give you a hint
  1028. # [23:48] <Hixie> i could have gone my day happily ignorant that www-tag is still discussing stuff that we resolved ten years ago
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  1030. # [23:50] <karlcow> "working at w3c I was an XML evil lover, now working at Opera I'm an XML hater". Some humans make me sad. Boxes, labels, and stuff. Ah yes I should add my RDF label for some others too.
  1031. # [23:51] <annevk> @opera.com -> must be a WHATWG XML-hating fanboy is indeed kinda nonsense, but you do hang out here ;-)
  1032. # [23:52] <Hixie> yeah i love the assumption that whatwg = xml-hating
  1033. # [23:52] <Hixie> seems to rather miss the point
  1034. # [23:52] <annevk> the other thing with that kind of stuff is that often the people here know much more about XML and how it works for web sites / browsers than any of those complaining
  1035. # [23:52] <karlcow> annevk: I hang out on #swig too, aka Semantic Web Interest Group
  1036. # [23:53] <Hixie> i take it this latest spat started because of the url spec work?
  1037. # [23:53] <karlcow> I'm the evil evil evil, all sins in one cow ;)
  1038. # [23:53] <annevk> Hixie: maybe, I saw a few tweets, but www-tag thinks URL spec work is inside the HTML spec...
  1039. # [23:53] <Hixie> o_O
  1040. # [23:53] <Hixie> if they wanted to do the url work, they had plenty of time
  1041. # [23:54] <Hixie> it's not like either you or me actually wants to do it
  1042. # [23:54] <annevk> in fact they can still do it if they want to :-)
  1043. # [23:54] <annevk> I don't really care, I just wanna fix problems
  1044. # [23:54] <Hixie> hear hear
  1045. # [23:54] <zewt> i hate xml, but i do have my reasons :)
  1046. # [23:55] <zewt> does this mean i can get a job at opera?
  1047. # [23:55] <karlcow> ahaha
  1048. # [23:55] <zewt> i guess the association is one-way :(
  1049. # [23:55] <annevk> zewt: if you're serious I think you'd have a good chance of getting a job, but they might ask you to move
  1050. # [23:56] <karlcow> zewt: I do not think it is a requirement, my cover letter/resume was xhtml 1.1 served as application/xhtml+xml ;)
  1051. # [23:56] <zewt> heh, i moved for my current job, i'll give it a chance first :P
  1052. # [23:56] <karlcow> zewt: http://www.opera.com/company/jobs/
  1053. # [23:56] <annevk> zewt: anyone with above average standards knowledge is a serious candidate for sure
  1054. # [23:56] <zewt> "above average" sure sounds like "any whatsoever"
  1055. # [23:57] <annevk> after I hit enter I realised that was kinda vague
  1056. # [23:57] <annevk> but I'm pretty sure you fit the criteria
  1057. # [23:57] <zewt> which after years of most specs being IETF-style walls of descriptive text, is a bit understandable
  1058. # [23:59] <zewt> man, google docs spreadsheets is nearly unusable in FF
  1059. # Session Close: Wed Oct 10 00:00:00 2012

The end :)