/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-10-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 19 00:40:37 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:40] * Now talking in #whatwg
  4. # [00:40] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  5. # [00:40] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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  37. # [01:46] * Hixie_ deals with some feedback on the spec that makes him think he should require that everyone who comments on the spec should first read the spec and take a test
  38. # [01:47] <Hixie_> (though actually, the number of times people suggest something that hte spec already says is remarkably low, all things considered)
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  48. # [02:01] <SamB_MacG5> Hixie_: that wouldn't be a good plan for clarification suggestions ...
  49. # [02:01] <SamB_MacG5> /requests
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  64. # [02:34] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: <iframe seamless> imports the stylesheets from the surrounding document, but selectors still don't match across the iframe boundaries, right?
  65. # [02:35] <kennyluck> I hope someone can answer some fundamental questions about the flex layout that I still haven't figured out...
  66. # [02:35] <TabAtkins> Yo.
  67. # [02:35] <kennyluck> What's the point of having 'flex-basis'?
  68. # [02:36] <kennyluck> When it usually just means 'width' and 'height'?
  69. # [02:36] <kennyluck> s/and/or/
  70. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> It abstracts width/height into the flex axis, so you don't have to worry about which property to use in the common case.
  71. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> It also lets you cascade width/height and flexibility separately if you wish.
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  73. # [02:39] <kennyluck> TabAtkins, hmm… ok, thanks. What about this, suppose I want to set the flex basis of an element to, say, 100px, am I more encouraged to do 'flex: 1 100px' than 'flex:　1auto; width: 100px'?
  74. # [02:39] <TabAtkins> Either one works. If you don't specifcially need the cascading ability, the former is simpler, so might as well use that.
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  76. # [02:41] <kennyluck> TabAtkins, is there an good use case of casding width and flex-basis separately?
  77. # [02:41] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  78. # [02:41] <TabAtkins> Same as cascading anything separately.
  79. # [02:41] <kennyluck> Not I don't believe in it. Just want to know.
  80. # [02:41] <TabAtkins> It's one of those fundamental abilities that is useful sometimes. Dont' have any specific examples off the top of my head.
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  107. # [03:49] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: nothing will ever match * > :root, right
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  154. # [05:32] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  201. # [08:17] <annevk> So I'm thinking about URL conformance, does it even make sense to have a valid URL concept without caring about the scheme?
  202. # [08:19] <annevk> Otherwise you get this thing where "data:test" is "valid" but actually it is not and should be flagged
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  206. # [08:20] <annevk> And you could even have "data:te st" which is in "error", but comes out of parsing as "data:te%20st" which is "valid" but actually it is not and should be flagged
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  208. # [08:23] <annevk> What seems kind of consistent is that you have a "scheme", a data part, and a "fragment"
  209. # [08:23] <annevk> with the data part being dependent upon the "scheme"
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  214. # [08:43] <annevk> btw, if you type in "data:test" in Opera and hit enter, it hangs a little
  215. # [08:43] <annevk> zcorpan: is there an open bug on removing media from <source>?
  216. # [08:44] <zcorpan> annevk: i thought there was but couldn't find it from a 1-minute search
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  219. # [08:48] <annevk> zcorpan: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19619 (filed a new one)
  220. # [09:13] <annevk> Hixie_: the default styles for <pre><code> yield in too much orange: http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/#api
  221. # [09:13] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  222. # [09:13] <annevk> Hixie_: even for the Dutch
  223. # [09:14] <zcorpan> all: default; seems scary
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  229. # [09:32] <annevk> Chrome's debugger seems to have the ability to modify a script, but how do I run the script after I made the modifications?
  230. # [09:33] <annevk> In particular I'm trying to figure out why dfn.js fails for http://url.spec.whatwg.org/
  231. # [09:33] * jgraham thought annevk had his text editor set up to orange-on-orange anyway
  232. # [09:33] <annevk> maybe the easiest is for me to simply copy dfn.js and do the thing locally
  233. # [09:34] <jgraham> Undefined variable getCookie?
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  235. # [09:35] <jgraham> (which means that the init function is never called afaict)
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  237. # [09:37] <jgraham> Oh still doesn't seem to work if I "fix" that
  238. # [09:38] <annevk> the problem is a reference to "constructor"
  239. # [09:40] <annevk> most other specs I write call that bit "constructors"
  240. # [09:43] <annevk> jgraham: fwiw, the getCookie thing also still fails, but doesn't cause total breakage
  241. # [09:44] <annevk> I'll just name it "Constructors" for now; arguably it's several anyway because of the optional argument
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  248. # [09:54] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: you realize you made yourself look like a dick on twitter over the "authors" thing?
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  251. # [09:59] <hsivonen> so many holes in XML enforcement
  252. # [09:59] <hsivonen> bogus charsets work as in HTML instead of causing the YSoD
  253. # [10:01] <hsivonen> I wonder what kind of breakage would ensue if I made this tough compliant.
  254. # [10:01] <hsivonen> s/tough/stuff/
  255. # [10:01] <annevk> hsivonen: we can also change the respective encodings to emit a FFFD instead of a decoder error
  256. # [10:01] <hsivonen> I mean bogus charset names
  257. # [10:03] <hsivonen> I don't have an opinion on what we should do on either invalid data or bogus names. For now, I try not to fix too many bugs at the same time to get better regression windows.
  258. # [10:03] <hsivonen> This old parser code is annoying to look at. When I look at it to fix one bug, I see three more.
  259. # [10:04] <hsivonen> I should get around to rewriting all this.
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  261. # [10:05] <zcorpan> hsivonen: seems chrome shows YSoD. (not opera) http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1854
  262. # [10:05] <zcorpan> haven't tested http content-type
  263. # [10:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan: nice to see Chrome is compliant
  264. # [10:07] <zcorpan> (chrome also shows ysod for x-user-defined in the xml decl)
  265. # [10:09] <hsivonen> Where did Leif put his XML BOM tests?…
  266. # [10:09] <zcorpan> no ysod for http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1855
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  285. # [11:03] <jgraham> Speaking of people coming across badly, some of the rhetoric in the <maincontent> thread really needs to be toned down
  286. # [11:06] <jgraham> And speaking of twitter, is there an equivalent to the parable about bind men and the elephant to describe the situation where people are hampered in their understanding not by an incomplete set of input data, but by insufficent communication bandwidth?
  287. # [11:07] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.19.229.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  288. # [11:08] <jgraham> *blind
  289. # [11:15] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
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  291. # [11:30] <krijn> Made a backup of all the static logs on http://krijn.html5.org/irc-logs/, in case my server goes down again
  292. # [11:30] <krijn> 2012 isn't there yet
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  294. # [11:35] * Joins: Stevef__ (~chatzilla@93-158-31-188.subs.ibrowse.com)
  295. # [11:36] <Stevef__> jgraham: re <maincontent> if I need to tone down please feel free to point out where
  296. # [11:37] <jgraham> Stevef__: I wasn't really refering to you :)
  297. # [11:38] <jgraham> Stevef__: You might like to fix the title case in your use case document
  298. # [11:38] <annevk> Stevef__: did you ever reply to hsivonen?
  299. # [11:38] <annevk> Stevef__: I agree with him that it needs a one-word name
  300. # [11:39] <Stevef__> jgraham: that makes a change :-) have been trying best to be good, I was afraid my respone to Hixie last night might have been a bit OT as I had been to a wine tasting at a vineyard in carcassonne
  301. # [11:40] <zcorpan> aren't you supposed to spit it out after tasting?
  302. # [11:40] <jgraham> Stevef__: Well if there was something, I might have skipped over it :)
  303. # [11:41] <Stevef__> annevk: re name, right I responded to maciej over on html wg list http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Oct/0112.html and henri also tweeted at me about it
  304. # [11:41] <Stevef__> annevk: have no problem with chnaging it, just leaving it for a bit for more feedback
  305. # [11:42] <annevk> just wondering as you replied to every other email in the WHATWG thread
  306. # [11:42] <annevk> I'm fine with letting people bikeshed on, I employ similar tactics
  307. # [11:43] * Joins: shepazu_ (~shepazu@108-70-132-46.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net)
  308. # [11:43] <Stevef__> annevk: as i had replied to ian yang on list about the name and relied to henri offlist didn't think it needed a repsonse, the more substantive stuff about parsing UA stylesheet i captured in a bug and ccd him
  309. # [11:44] <annevk> sure, as I said, just wondering :)
  310. # [11:44] <annevk> sounds like you're on top of it
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  313. # [11:45] * shepazu_ is now known as shepazu
  314. # [11:46] <Stevef__> am trying to be...
  315. # [11:48] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
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  317. # [11:49] <zcorpan> Stevef__: do you have a dataset of top 10,000 pages with urls now, btw?
  318. # [11:51] <Stevef__> zcorpan: I have a data set generated late last month with each file in a folder that uses the URL as a name, and also each file has a comment in it with the URL
  319. # [11:51] * Quits: shepazu (~shepazu@108-70-132-46.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  320. # [11:51] * shepazu_ is now known as shepazu
  321. # [11:52] <zcorpan> Stevef__: sounds nice. is it available online?
  322. # [11:52] <Stevef__> zcorpan: will make available when i get back home am in France at the moment, will ping you when it available
  323. # [11:53] <zcorpan> cool thanks
  324. # [11:54] <annevk> new datasets?
  325. # [11:54] <annevk> sweet
  326. # [11:54] <Stevef__> same URL list that i did back in march
  327. # [11:56] <Stevef__> gotta travel up to toulouse now to catch a big bird home catch you all later
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  329. # [11:58] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
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  331. # Session Close: Fri Oct 19 12:11:44 2012
  332. #
  333. # Session Start: Fri Oct 19 12:11:44 2012
  334. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  335. # [12:11] * Disconnected
  336. # [12:12] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  337. # [12:13] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  338. # [12:13] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  339. # [12:13] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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  355. # [12:45] <hsivonen> does the W3C test suite support setting the content-type header now?
  356. # [12:48] <jgraham> Well sure, if you make a .htaccess file
  357. # [12:48] <hsivonen> ok
  358. # [12:48] <hsivonen> the mochitest mechanism of having a foo.bar^headers^ file is quite nice
  359. # [12:49] <jgraham> Yeah
  360. # [12:50] <jgraham> One could port that to apache if people thought that it was a significant improvement over .htaccess files I guess
  361. # [12:51] <jgraham> In general lack of standardisation of the server-side component of testing is a big problem
  362. # [12:51] <hsivonen> does anyone have CSS BOM precedence tests yet?
  363. # [12:51] <jgraham> That is Opera + Mozilla + WebKit + IE (presumably) all have different setups
  364. # [12:51] <jgraham> And making one test that can run in all environments can be tricky
  365. # [12:52] * jgraham goes back to removing Opera-specific server names from some tests
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  369. # [13:04] <hsivonen> annevk: FYI, http://idpf.org/epub/30/spec/epub30-publications.html#tbl-core-media-types has some non-IANA font MIME types
  370. # [13:04] <odinho> jgraham: You knight in shining armour ;-)
  371. # [13:06] <jgraham> Saying something about a queen?
  372. # [13:07] <hsivonen> application/epub+zip is unregistered, too
  373. # [13:07] <hsivonen> looks like the IDPF has given up on IANA
  374. # [13:09] <jgraham> Like everyone else then?
  375. # [13:17] * Joins: reinaldob (~reinaldob@201.74.207.100)
  376. # [13:22] <hsivonen> does JS process \u escapes before or after tokenization?
  377. # [13:22] <hsivonen> can \u escapes be used in indentifiers?
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  379. # [13:23] <jgraham> Yes
  380. # [13:23] <hsivonen> thanks
  381. # [13:23] <jgraham> Which is less evil? A 32Mb file in version control or a PHP script to output 32Mb of data?
  382. # [13:24] * Joins: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.246.234)
  383. # [13:24] <odinho> hsivonen: And before you could var v\u0061r = hello; and it would use "var" as a variable name. But not anymore :D
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  385. # [13:25] <odinho> jgraham: Hm, -- if the version control does gzip, or handles sparse files, the 32mb of data could be compressed to almost nothing.
  386. # [13:25] <odinho> jgraham: Although I'd probably go with PHP script. Because we have lots of those already.
  387. # [13:26] <jgraham> odinho: You I guess 32Mb of highly compressible text might not be too bad. I think git at least compresses
  388. # [13:26] <jgraham> I don't want to use PHP if I don't have to if it a problem for WebKit/Mozilla
  389. # [13:27] <odinho> jgraham: But if they want to run CORS/XHR and other tests that need a server component, -- they have to support it anyway.
  390. # [13:27] <hsivonen> hmm. Is U+0E4F banned as the first character of a JS identifier?
  391. # [13:27] <hsivonen> oh. well. I’ll try not to overdo this test
  392. # [13:27] <odinho> So I think/hope/pray (no, not the last one) that they will get it soon.
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  394. # [13:28] <jgraham> odinho: Well they have a server component
  395. # [13:28] <jgraham> It just doesn't support PHP
  396. # [13:28] <odinho> I would guess they're interested to fix that.
  397. # [13:29] <jgraham> hsivonen: http://es5.github.com/#x7.6
  398. # [13:29] <jgraham> odinho: Well no one has said to me "yeah, PHP, that sounds like a good idea, we'll get right on it"
  399. # [13:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/web-ecmascript/file/e0a9564ea062/identifiers/index.html
  400. # [13:30] <jgraham> Dunno what webkit does, but Mozilla have some custom javascript server that they can control from within the test
  401. # [13:30] <odinho> jgraham: They should. They should run my tests.
  402. # [13:30] <jgraham> odinho: Do they show bugs in Mozilla/WebKit?
  403. # [13:30] <odinho> Yeah, some.
  404. # [13:30] <odinho> Ofc.
  405. # [13:31] <odinho> It's the web, man.
  406. # [13:31] <jgraham> You should tell sicking that
  407. # [13:31] <hsivonen> thanks. I’m slightly annoyed about the spec trying to use Unicode classes instead of treating runs of code points as opaque strings
  408. # [13:31] <hsivonen> but not a real problem
  409. # [13:31] <hsivonen> I was just trying to make a variable name that matches the UTF-8 BOM decoded as Windows-874
  410. # [13:33] <smaug____> odinho: FYI, on Mozilla's httpd.js server one can run .sjs scripts. Something like http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/browser/base/content/test/authenticate.sjs
  411. # [13:35] <smaug____> IIRC for websockets we use pywebsocket server
  412. # [13:35] <odinho> smaug____: I've looked a bit at it, but that only works for mozilla, so it won't do putting that on w3c-test.org
  413. # [13:36] <smaug____> right
  414. # [13:36] <jgraham> Yeah, obviously reusing an XPCOM-based server wholesale isn't going to fly
  415. # [13:36] <odinho> Although if we had a common server side format that'd be so much nicer.
  416. # [13:36] <smaug____> does w3c-test.org support only php ?
  417. # [13:36] <odinho> I don't care if it's PHP, Python or server side javascript.
  418. # [13:36] <jgraham> Well I think we have pywebsocket and jetty for web sockets tests
  419. # [13:36] <odinho> (As long as it's not Perl)
  420. # [13:37] <jgraham> But the problem isn't really PHP-vs-foo
  421. # [13:37] <jgraham> It's "how do we get everyone running the tests in their own test infrastructure"
  422. # [13:37] <odinho> Yes. That's the "common" part.
  423. # [13:37] <smaug____> --odinho
  424. # [13:37] <jgraham> Which means that it has to be a system that works for a number of setups
  425. # [13:38] <odinho> smaug____: Waaa :'(
  426. # [13:38] <smaug____> (Perl is way nicer than Python :) )
  427. # [13:38] <jgraham> (smaug____ is obviosuly crqazy)
  428. # [13:38] <jgraham> In particular it has to work for people that want to distribute all tests to each slave
  429. # [13:40] <jgraham> And I guess they might not want to have to get apache + PHP running on each individual salve?
  430. # [13:40] <jgraham> *slave
  431. # [13:40] <jgraham> (I don't really know the rationale for the current Mozilla design, so I can't tell what would work for you guys)
  432. # [13:40] <smaug____> I'd assume python based server side thing might be the easiest to sell to Mozilla
  433. # [13:40] <jgraham> smaug____: Any idea who at Mozilla I should talk to about this?
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  438. # [13:41] <odinho> I like Python too. I'd be willing to rewrite all my server side php things to some python server side resource.
  439. # [13:42] <jgraham> Yeah, there isn't enough stuff on w3c-test.org that migration is a serious problem at the moment
  440. # [13:42] <jgraham> But we need to find a solution that works for everyone asap
  441. # [13:42] <odinho> Agreed! :D
  442. # [13:42] <smaug____> jgraham: probably ted
  443. # [13:43] <jgraham> I don't know if I know who that is :) Is that an email address?
  444. # [13:43] <odinho> https etc will be a bit strange though.
  445. # [13:44] <odinho> And maybe the test system should have some common.js as well where settings like expected domains and ports etc can be set.
  446. # [13:44] * Joins: linclark (~clark@67.186.35.246)
  447. # [13:44] <jgraham> Well if you run your own server you can control things like that
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  449. # [13:46] <jgraham> I mean if there is one common setup that everyone uses, we can go with convention over configuration
  450. # [13:47] <smaug____> jgraham: use bugzilla as phonebook
  451. # [13:47] <smaug____> type :ted to the cc field
  452. # [13:47] <jgraham> Hah
  453. # [13:47] <annevk> hsivonen: at some point I'd like to fix MIME type parsing and registration
  454. # [13:48] <jgraham> Does anyone that works on WebKit still hang out here?
  455. # [13:49] * Parts: Kolombiken (~Adium@c80-216-10-244.bredband.comhem.se)
  456. # [13:49] <annevk> jgraham: there's several, e.g. arv, abarth, othermaciej, beverloo, ...
  457. # [13:50] <jgraham> Yeah, but I never see them :)
  458. # [13:50] <jgraham> I guess WebKit isn't even the right level
  459. # [13:50] <jgraham> Might need someone from Chromium and someone from Safari
  460. # [13:51] <jgraham> (they have seperate test systems, right?)
  461. # [13:52] <smaug____> well, webkit related tests are in webkit's tree
  462. # [13:52] <smaug____> but doesn't Safari and Chromium use separate network layer, so they have different bugs there
  463. # [13:53] <smaug____> s/separate/different/
  464. # [13:53] <smaug____> bah, now my English is getting horrible
  465. # [13:54] <zcorpan> smaug____: must be the Perl
  466. # [14:00] <annevk> smaug____: yeah, Safari uses Mac OS X's network layer
  467. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> smaug____, jgraham : we can add support python on w3c-test.org if there's a real need
  468. # [14:01] <annevk> marcosc: even though <source media> "works" it doesn't actually dynamically adjust or anything
  469. # [14:01] <annevk> marcosc: it's hardly useful for anything
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  474. # [14:04] <marcosc> annevk: yes, it's not "responsive"
  475. # [14:04] <marcosc> Why was it added?
  476. # [14:05] * marcosc was actually quite surprised that it was there.
  477. # [14:06] <odinho> lol, tobie is expressing interest for almost anything on TPAC wiki. I wanted to do the same, but am currently restraining it a bit :P
  478. # [14:07] <marcosc> odinho: if you really want to sign up for the Web Marketing one, no one is stopping you :)
  479. # [14:07] <odinho> images are not supposed to be dynamically adjusted either.
  480. # [14:07] <odinho> marcosc: Too embarrasing. :S
  481. # [14:07] <zcorpan> put in a fake tag entry to see how many are interested
  482. # [14:08] <marcosc> heh
  483. # [14:08] <odinho> zcorpan: == TAG chitchat == People who have expressed interest: ...
  484. # [14:09] <zcorpan> or longdesc! gotta resolve longdesc!
  485. # [14:09] <marcosc> heh :)
  486. # [14:09] <marcosc> how about resolving longdesc with httpRange-14 ?
  487. # [14:09] <annevk> longdesc is back again?
  488. # [14:10] <hsivonen> IE9 is weird. If a JS or CSS file starts with a UTF-8 BOM and HTTP says it’s not UTF-8, IE9 skips the BOM and then decodes the file according to the HTTP-level charset.
  489. # [14:11] <zcorpan> annevk: does it ever leave?
  490. # [14:11] <zcorpan> longdesc stays for long
  491. # [14:11] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@p15181-obmd01.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  492. # [14:12] <jgraham> You are saying it shoudl have been named longdiscuss?
  493. # [14:12] <annevk> hsivonen: o_O
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  495. # [14:12] <jgraham> "a href pointing to a longer discussion of the image's contents"
  496. # [14:12] <annevk> hsivonen: I hope I'm not going to spec that
  497. # [14:12] <marcosc> heh
  498. # [14:14] <annevk> This responsive image thing is kinda similar; people all up in arms about a single attribute
  499. # [14:14] <hsivonen> annevk: I hope you are not
  500. # [14:15] <hsivonen> IE10 (Preview) behaves the same
  501. # [14:18] <hsivonen> also for HTML
  502. # [14:18] <annevk> I'm pretty sure that means they changed behavior
  503. # [14:18] <hsivonen> from 8 you mean?
  504. # [14:19] <annevk> Or maybe we did not check the HTTP override closely enough? Hmm
  505. # [14:20] <hsivonen> from 9 even
  506. # [14:20] <hsivonen> IE9 is different for HTML on one hand and JS and CSS on the other
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  508. # [14:21] <hsivonen> writing well-researched email to www-style is so much slower than just changing the code...
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  524. # [14:56] <hsivonen> finally got the email sent: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0516.html
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  533. # [15:30] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/rev/93b89bd30489 gives 500
  534. # [15:32] <Ms2ger> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/rev/93b89bd30489 doesn't, fwiw
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  536. # [15:34] <zcorpan> oh
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  563. # [16:35] * Ms2ger looks for someone from Opera
  564. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> jgraham?
  565. # [16:35] * jgraham looks like someone from Opera
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  567. # [16:36] <Ms2ger> jgraham, bz wants to add something to your microdata test: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=673223&action=diff#a/dom/imptests/html/tests/submission/Opera/microdata/test_001.html_sec1
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  572. # [16:39] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Sounds good to me
  573. # [16:39] <Ms2ger> Thanks
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  575. # [16:39] <jgraham> I am not quite the right person to really review it, but I don't object to it at least
  576. # [16:39] <jgraham> Is the order well defined?
  577. # [16:40] <Ms2ger> I think I managed to convince myself the spec agrees with that order :)
  578. # [16:41] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Are you going to push that back to the W3C?
  579. # [16:41] <Ms2ger> Yes
  580. # [16:41] <jgraham> Awesome, thanks
  581. # [16:42] <Ms2ger> Np
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  592. # [17:12] <SimonSapin> Is there a way to test the computed value (not used value) of a CSS property?
  593. # [17:13] <Ms2ger> jgraham, fwiw, the Mozilla people most likely to know about test servers hang out on irc.mozilla.org #ateam
  594. # [17:14] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Thanks
  595. # [17:15] <Ms2ger> Np
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  597. # [17:15] <jgraham> I have written a slightly incoherent email, but am waiting to see if I can work out who is responsible for this stuff at Google and Apple
  598. # [17:15] <jgraham> Or however the infrastructure is set up
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  602. # [17:32] <annevk> SimonSapin: getComputedStyle works often
  603. # [17:32] <annevk> SimonSapin: but not all the time
  604. # [17:33] <annevk> omg someone murdered my CSSOM work and replaced it with respec-style shit
  605. # [17:33] <SimonSapin> annevk: I want to test vw estc
  606. # [17:34] <SimonSapin> annevk: I want to test vw etc. in implementations
  607. # [17:34] <SimonSapin> apparently the computed value is supposed to resolve vw and be absolute
  608. # [17:34] <annevk> SimonSapin: see http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#resolved-value for which properties it returns the computed value
  609. # [17:35] <SimonSapin> but in paged media the viewport size is potentially different across pages on the same document
  610. # [17:35] <annevk> (or should return, anyway)
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  612. # Session Close: Fri Oct 19 17:46:17 2012
  613. #
  614. # Session Start: Fri Oct 19 17:46:17 2012
  615. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  618. # [17:47] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  619. # [17:47] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  620. # [17:47] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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  625. # [17:54] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  630. # [18:18] <gsnedders> We have multiple specs defining the URL object? Yay!
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  632. # [18:21] <annevk> gsnedders: we do?
  633. # [18:22] <gsnedders> File API.
  634. # [18:22] <gsnedders> Supplemental interface, but confused me when I was looking for createObjectURL in the URL spec.
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  636. # [18:24] <annevk> oh multiple like that
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  638. # [18:30] <abarth> jgraham: we're around, just in different time zones
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  640. # [18:34] <odinho> abarth: Hmm. If a tree falls in the forest, but noone hears ... etc. :P
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  656. # [19:10] <annevk> ooh, jsbell, didn't realize that's how ArrayBufferView worked
  657. # [19:11] <annevk> I wish the Typed Array spec had a shorthand so could just talk about the bytes from the ArrayBufferView
  658. # [19:12] <jsbell> heh. The reason I got mired in this in the first place was writing an JS library to encode/decode to a binary format. This was before Typed Arrays were supported anywhere so I started off writing a TA shim. So... intimately aware of the details. :)
  659. # [19:13] <annevk> heh, man of many shims
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  677. # [19:42] <JonathanNeal> What are we shimming now? Forcing CSS to recognize unsupported entries like old IE did?
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  679. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> annevk: It's your fault for abandoning us!
  680. # [19:43] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: getComputedStyle should work for all non-2.1 properties, and generally all 2.1 properties not directly involved in layout.
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  683. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Yeah, I know, but I was pissed, shrug. Annoys me when people forget just how large the author community is, and thus take "I think this is easy to misuse" as a personal attack against themselves.
  684. # [19:45] <TabAtkins> And/or forget how many hostile authors there are.
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  720. # [21:24] <Hixie> Glenn Adams doesn't hang out on IRC right?
  721. # [21:24] <TabAtkins> I've seen him on W3C server, under glenn.
  722. # [21:24] <TabAtkins> But he's not there now.
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  724. # [21:26] <Hixie> sigh
  725. # [21:26] <Hixie> why did anne have to give up on CSSOM
  726. # [21:26] <TabAtkins> I know. I'd take it over, but I'm too busy with other things. :/
  727. # [21:26] <Hixie> it's already bit-rotting, losing MUST statements and stuff
  728. # [21:28] <Ms2ger> "glazou", I believe
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  738. # [21:34] <astearns> am I reading correctly that I cannot set up a MutationObserver to observe changes in CSS properties?
  739. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> Correct.
  740. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> MutationObservers observe DOM mutations.
  741. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> Though you can observe changes in 'style' attributes.
  742. # [21:37] <astearns> is there a principle behind this restriction, or is it just future work to define a CSSMutationObserver?
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  744. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> DOM observers are easier, in general, than a generic JS object observer.
  745. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> However, the latter is planned for the future.
  746. # [21:41] <astearns> OK, thanks
  747. # [21:50] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
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  756. # [22:14] * Ms2ger whacks dglazkov
  757. # [22:17] <Hixie> now what
  758. # [22:18] <dglazkov> yay
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  761. # [22:19] <Ms2ger> dglazkov, https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#shadow-root-object
  762. # [22:19] <Ms2ger> You need to add ? for nullable types
  763. # [22:19] <Ms2ger> and get rid of 'in' and 'raises'
  764. # [22:20] <dglazkov> Ms2ger: sure thing, thanks! can you file a bug so I don't forget? there's a nice line at the right top corner
  765. # [22:20] <dglazkov> line->link
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  767. # [22:30] <dglazkov> <3
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  770. # [22:37] <dglazkov> Ms2ger: are you going to be at the TPAC in Lyon?
  771. # [22:37] <Ms2ger> Perhaps
  772. # [22:38] <astearns> we should all dress up as Ms2ger on Halloween
  773. # [22:41] <jgraham> You mean we each dress up as a rack server and then lie on top of each other?
  774. # [22:41] <dglazkov> Ms2ger: well -- I am not going :P
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  776. # [22:41] <Ms2ger> jgraham, kinky
  777. # [22:46] <jgraham> dglazkov: So who will be filling your role as the supernaturally cheery one?
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  787. # [23:09] <dglazkov> jgraham: slightlyoff, of course!
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  793. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> That... seems like a perversion of nature.
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  806. # [23:42] <smaug____> what... Ms2ger said "perhaps"
  807. # [23:43] <smaug____> will we see him/her/it
  808. # [23:44] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  809. # [23:44] <jgraham> I think perhaps is a mysterious-sounding synonym for "no"
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  811. # [23:44] <jgraham> At least in this case
  812. # [23:45] <Hixie> i might be at tpac
  813. # [23:46] <Hixie> if there was a wormhole that suddenly opened below my desk and dropped by there against my will
  814. # [23:46] <Hixie> :-P
  815. # [23:48] * jgraham thinks there are a variety of substantially more likely scenarios that would lead to Hixie being at TPAC
  816. # [23:49] <Philip`> Declare that TPAC will occur wherever Hixie is, so that he will inevitably be attending it
  817. # [23:50] <jgraham> For example
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  821. # [23:57] <Hixie> now you're just scaring me
  822. # [23:57] <Hixie> it's not halloween yet!
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  824. # Session Close: Sat Oct 20 00:00:00 2012

The end :)