/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-10-22 / end

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  52. # [05:57] <Hixie> ;
  53. # [05:57] <Hixie> oops
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  81. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19582
  82. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> have you ever heard of those?
  83. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> I wonder how widely used they are
  84. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> coap and coaps
  85. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> schemes
  86. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> I assume the criteria for whitelisting schemes is that they are actually used
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  88. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> or actually that there are Web sites that handle them, than can process them
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  102. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I'm gonna forward a couple more comments I got back from IANA for other media-type registration requests
  103. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> do with them what you will
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  105. # [10:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you know what the deal is with http://idpf.org/epub/30/spec/epub30-ocf.html#app-media-type purporting to contain a registration but the type is not in the registry?
  106. # [10:11] * MikeSmith looks now
  107. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I can only surmise that they have not actually submitted the registration request to IANA yet
  108. # [10:12] <hsivonen> ok
  109. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> despite the statement "This appendix registers"
  110. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> there unfortunately is no way to tell if anybody has submitted a particular media-type request to IANA
  111. # [10:13] <hsivonen> It surprises me a bit considering that Murata Makoto seems to have experience with navigating the registration procedure.
  112. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> because you have to submit requests to a non-archived address, and then they respond privately
  113. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> I guess the procedure has changed since the last time Murata-san got something registered
  114. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> I can ask him about that one if you want
  115. # [10:15] <hsivonen> no need.
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  117. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> ok
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  125. # [10:30] <hsivonen> sigh. reloading document.written docs. can’t we just do what WebKit does...
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  134. # [11:12] <jgraham> hsivonen: What does WebKit do?
  135. # [11:12] <jgraham> And "yes, probably, if you implement it in Gecko"
  136. # [11:13] <jgraham> (I sort of recall that WebKit does something dumb though)
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  146. # [11:53] <hsivonen> jgraham: WebKit loads the URL that the location object represents
  147. # [11:54] <jgraham> That sounds familiar
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  149. # [11:54] <jgraham> It seems simple and user-hostile
  150. # [11:54] <hsivonen> yes
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  153. # [11:55] <hsivonen> whoa. looks like glazou implemented EPUB2 after all
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  160. # [12:03] <Stevef> FYI requested <main> element spec to be published as FPWD and listed recent changes http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Oct/0133.html
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  162. # [12:12] <Stevef> a question to any of the WHATWG regulars: am unclear whether its OK for me to continue to ask for feedback on <main> on the WHATWG list, any thoughts?
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  167. # [12:16] <annevk> FYI: I'll be at TPAC
  168. # [12:16] <jgraham> Yay
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  170. # [12:19] <annevk> Thanks to hsivonen and Mozilla
  171. # [12:19] <jgraham> You are being smuggled in his suitecase?
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  174. # [12:23] <annevk> Yes
  175. # [12:24] * hsivonen is planning to travel with a backpack
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  179. # [12:34] <annevk> :-)
  180. # [12:34] <annevk> Stevef: yes
  181. # [12:34] <annevk> Stevef: HTML is definitely on topic
  182. # [12:37] <Stevef> annevk: ok thanks
  183. # [12:43] <Stevef> annevk: i want to ensure that all people who may be interested in it are aware that its being developed and have the opportunity to provide input
  184. # [12:43] <annevk> Yeah, makes sense to me
  185. # [12:48] <hsivonen> @charset handling in Gecko is interesting
  186. # [12:49] <hsivonen> if the @charset rule itself in encoded in BOMless UTF-16, Gecko will carefully decode @charset as UTF-16 and then decode the whole stylesheet according to whatever encoding was declared
  187. # [12:49] <hsivonen> even though a non-UTF-16 encoding must be bogus
  188. # [12:49] <hsivonen> since in the case of non-UTF-16, @charset itself wouldn’t be UTF-16
  189. # [12:50] <annevk> that's kinda messed up
  190. # [12:50] <hsivonen> so much brokenness because of UTF-16
  191. # [12:50] <annevk> that should just fail or something
  192. # [12:50] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: isn’t that what is specified in http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#charset ?
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  194. # [12:51] <annevk> SimonSapin: where does it say there that a utf-16 encoded @charset but with @charset not listing a utf-16 encoding, it should decode it per the listed encoding?
  195. # [12:52] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: apparently yes! the spec is messed up, too!
  196. # [12:52] <hsivonen> annevk: see the table
  197. # [12:52] <annevk> hmm really?! the fuck
  198. # [12:52] <annevk> I wonder if Hixie is to blame for that table
  199. # [12:53] <hsivonen> also, the spec supports UTF-32
  200. # [12:53] <SimonSapin> I think this is to be rewritten in css3-syntax. Input on this subject is greatly appreciated: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-syntax/#the-input-byte-stream
  201. # [12:54] <annevk> I think utf-16 should only be supported out-of-band-or-BOM
  202. # [12:54] <annevk> so you just check for ASCII "@charset" at the start and go with that
  203. # [12:55] <annevk> then you drop utf-32
  204. # [12:55] <annevk> and only support what the Encoding Standard says
  205. # [12:55] <hsivonen> also, CSS3 Syntax makes the default UTF-8
  206. # [12:55] <annevk> including the BOM handling of the Encoding Standard (by reference)
  207. # [12:55] <hsivonen> not that it matters, unless you support loading CSS without a referring Document
  208. # [12:55] <hsivonen> wait
  209. # [12:56] <SimonSapin> annevk: feel free to send this to www-style :)
  210. # [12:56] <hsivonen> CSS3 syntax doesn’t inherit from Document
  211. # [12:56] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: what do you mean?
  212. # [12:57] <annevk> is inheritance from Document also cross-origin?
  213. # [12:57] <hsivonen> annevk: good question
  214. # [12:57] <annevk> SimonSapin: if your HTML is windows-1252 and your CSS does not say, it's windows-1252 too
  215. # [12:57] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: what annevk said
  216. # [12:57] <SimonSapin> oh, inheriting the encoding
  217. # [12:58] <annevk> and I think inheritance should not work for utf-16 (that means utf-8 again or some such)
  218. # [12:58] <SimonSapin> css 2.1 does that. The new syntax draft should too, but I guess that part just hasn’t been written yet
  219. # [12:58] <hsivonen> annevk: good point
  220. # [12:59] <hsivonen> All this would be so much simpler if UTF-16 had never been used for interchange
  221. # [13:00] <SimonSapin> why does utf16 require special treatment?
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  223. # [13:01] <annevk> SimonSapin: because it's the only non-ASCII-compatible encoding
  224. # [13:01] <hsivonen> http://memegenerator.net/instance/28773378
  225. # [13:02] <annevk> SimonSapin: and generally people have no idea what they're doing
  226. # [13:02] <SimonSapin> even the various CJK encodings are ascii-compatible?
  227. # [13:02] <annevk> SimonSapin: yes, see the Encoding Standard
  228. # [13:02] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: yes.
  229. # [13:02] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: UTF-16 is the only encoding that doesn’t conform to the pattern
  230. # [13:03] <hsivonen> well, UTF-16 and UTF-16BE really
  231. # [13:03] <SimonSapin> ignoring utf32
  232. # [13:03] <annevk> utf-32 is not supported in most browsers
  233. # [13:03] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: UTF-32 is defined not to exist on the Web
  234. # [13:03] <SimonSapin> oh, ok
  235. # [13:03] <annevk> EBCDIC is also not ASCII-compatible, but does not exist either
  236. # [13:04] <annevk> "exist" :)
  237. # [13:04] <annevk> hsivonen: you know how to get that on w3cmemes?
  238. # [13:04] <hsivonen> annevk: I don’t
  239. # [13:04] <SimonSapin> the table in css2.1 has entries for EBCDIC, IBM1026 and GSM 03.38. whatever these are
  240. # [13:06] <annevk> CSS 2.1 was written when we had not looked at encodings in detail I think
  241. # [13:06] <annevk> or when the feeling was we should support all of them or something because IANA lists them in a document somewhere? I'm not entirely sure what the thinking was at the time, but we can now say it was wrong
  242. # [13:08] <SimonSapin> annevk: if you feel like writing up the details of how css3-syntax should get unicode from bytes, that would greatly help
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  246. # [13:16] <annevk> SimonSapin: As I'm still trying to postpone working on URL conformance I guess I can do that
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  250. # [13:19] <annevk> SimonSapin: are you co-editor or something?
  251. # [13:20] <SimonSapin> annevk: no. I’m implementer and recently joined the wg, but not editing anything
  252. # [13:21] <SimonSapin> but I’m interested in seeing this progress, and maybe I can push it a little in the group
  253. # [13:22] <annevk> kk, I'll take a look
  254. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> anybody know what plans if any there are for the Streams API draft
  255. # [13:26] <MikeSmith> the one from Microsoft
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  257. # [13:28] <annevk> well they implement it
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  259. # [13:28] <annevk> and sicking was finally convinced it's better than chunked
  260. # [13:29] <annevk> so I put it in XHR
  261. # [13:29] <annevk> haven't heard much since
  262. # [13:29] <annevk> but maybe that's because it's WHATWG XHR and Microsoft does not care about that?
  263. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> dunno
  264. # [13:30] * Quits: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.222.90) (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
  265. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> but I thought part of the job of the three editors of the W3C XHR draft was to track your upstream changes and evaluate them and pull them to the W3C version as needed
  266. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> and the Crypto WG seems to be interested in the Streams spec as well
  267. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> and other people have asked me about it lately
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  272. # [13:39] <annevk> SimonSapin: http://html5.org/temp/cssencoding.txt
  273. # [13:40] <annevk> SimonSapin: I think that can replace all that CSS 2.1 has
  274. # [13:40] <annevk> SimonSapin: note that the Encoding Standard deals with all the BOM stuff already so that does not need to be listed
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  283. # [13:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: is it? I've heard surprisingly little about their plans
  284. # [13:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: though hallvors came in here the other day suggesting something like that
  285. # [13:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: and he'd maybe even contribute to whatwg/xhr
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  287. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> annevk: I think that's the general plan for all things you're editing that have a W3C equivalent
  288. # [13:54] <annevk> need a lot of editors then :p
  289. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> yeah
  290. # [13:54] <hsivonen> annevk, SimonSapin: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0615.html
  291. # [13:55] <annevk> ah cool
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  293. # [13:55] <annevk> I tweeted my thing cc'ing TabAtkins
  294. # [13:55] <annevk> hopefully he'll sort it out somehow
  295. # [13:55] <hsivonen> annevk: wait, you’t honor the charset declared by @charset even if there is a UTF-8 BOM?
  296. # [13:56] <annevk> hsivonen: no, BOM overrides all
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  298. # [13:56] <annevk> hsivonen: BOM is part of step 7
  299. # [13:56] * smaug is now known as smaug____
  300. # [13:56] <annevk> hsivonen: that's why the input to decode is called "fallback encoding"
  301. # [13:56] <hsivonen> annevk: why bother with EF BB BF in step 3 then?
  302. # [13:56] <annevk> ooh that seems like a bug
  303. # [13:57] <annevk> shit I thought the difference there was quotes or no quotes
  304. # [13:57] <annevk> my bad
  305. # [13:57] <annevk> fixed
  306. # [13:57] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
  307. # [13:58] <matjas> annevk: “the set label” → “then set label”
  308. # [13:58] <matjas> i think
  309. # [13:58] <annevk> matjas: yeah fixed that when I fixed the thing hsivonen just mentioned :)
  310. # [13:59] <annevk> hsivonen: whoa CSS 2.1 was crazy
  311. # [13:59] <annevk> hsivonen: overriding the utf-8 BOM if the @charset that followed it said something else
  312. # [13:59] * Quits: vikash (~vikash@unaffiliated/vikash) (Quit: Leaving)
  313. # [13:59] <hsivonen> I should check if I accidentally made scripts inherit UTF-16
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  315. # [14:01] <hsivonen> sigh. I did.
  316. # [14:01] <hsivonen> though so did our old script decoding code
  317. # [14:02] * hsivonen files a bug
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  322. # [14:09] <annevk> kind of funny that out of that big table in CSS 2.1 the only relevant line ends up being 40 63 68 61 72 73 65 74 20 22 (XX)* 22 3B
  323. # [14:10] <annevk> to be fair, that's mostly because it catered towards utf-16/utf-32/BOM, but also EBCDIC / IBM1026 / GSM?!
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  327. # [14:19] <hsivonen> whoa! http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0597.html French and Dutch consider 0 positive????!!!‼⁇⁈⁉‽
  328. # [14:20] * Quits: izhak (~izhak@213.87.241.217) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  329. # [14:20] <jgraham> Like IEEE 754 then :)
  330. # [14:21] <annevk> hsivonen: nah, that's just Belgian usage
  331. # [14:21] <annevk> hsivonen: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positief_getal
  332. # [14:21] <jgraham> (as opposed to -0 ofc)
  333. # [14:21] <annevk> hsivonen: in Dutch it's neither negative nor positive
  334. # [14:22] <annevk> well, Dutch as practiced in the Netherlands
  335. # [14:23] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: I’m french; just saying "positive" is often ambiguous
  336. # [14:23] <annevk> non-negative is good though
  337. # [14:23] <SimonSapin> when I studied math or physics (in france) we always said "strictly positive" or "positive or zero"
  338. # [14:24] <annevk> but ideally we just define these words somewhere
  339. # [14:24] <annevk> SimonSapin: Belgium does the same "strikt positief" :)
  340. # [14:24] <annevk> (I just read)
  341. # [14:24] <SimonSapin> non-negative is good, but I never heard it in french
  342. # [14:29] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@vpnh151.ugent.be)
  343. # [14:30] <Ms2ger> Actually, it's more complicated in Belgium
  344. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> wondering how could it be more complicated then discussed above...
  345. # [14:31] <hsivonen> how can it be more complicated than a yes or no question?
  346. # [14:31] <hsivonen> Is 0 positive? Yes or no.
  347. # [14:32] <Ms2ger> "Can be either, depending on the field the person you're talking to works in"
  348. # [14:32] <webben> could one just substitute "more than 0" and "0 or more" ?
  349. # [14:33] <jgraham> Yes, I think that this is the point where karlcow starts saying things like "different cultures, different perspectives"
  350. # [14:33] <annevk> half full half empty?
  351. # [14:33] <jgraham> To explain why not everyone can agree on a single unambiguous definition for the word "positive"
  352. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> jgraham: :-)
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  354. # [14:34] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
  355. # [14:34] <MikeSmith> so please try to have these kinds of conversations while karl's around
  356. # [14:34] <Ms2ger> Clearly, everyone should just agree on positive for >0 and non-negative for >=0
  357. # [14:35] <SimonSapin> … and on the metric system, and utf-8, and driving on the right side of the road
  358. # [14:35] <SimonSapin> and don’t forget Esperanto :)
  359. # [14:36] <Ms2ger> All of that, except for Esperanto :)
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  364. # [14:40] <jgraham> I thought even the made-up-language folks hated Esperanto
  365. # [14:40] <jgraham> Isn't Lobjan where all the hot geek action is these days?
  366. # [14:41] <MikeSmith> we should make a natural language based on JavaScript
  367. # [14:41] <SimonSapin> I don’t actually know any Esperanto or other made-up language
  368. # [14:41] * AryehGregor_ is now known as AryehGregor
  369. # [14:41] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Never bet against javascript
  370. # [14:42] * Quits: baku (~baku@38.124.51.227) (Quit: Leaving)
  371. # [14:42] <AryehGregor> GPHemsley, I should be able to give you SSH access if you give me your public key, but I'm not actually sure I should be doing that, so maybe better to ask Hixie.
  372. # [14:42] <hsivonen> made-up language folks don’t seem too focused on installed base and Support Existing content
  373. # [14:44] <annevk> AryehGregor: yeah you're allowed to do that
  374. # [14:44] <jgraham> In the vein of "there's an xkcd for that": http://www.exocomics.com/101
  375. # [14:44] <AryehGregor> Okay, tnen.
  376. # [14:44] <AryehGregor> then.
  377. # [14:44] <AryehGregor> GPHemsley, then I'll need your public key.
  378. # [14:44] <AryehGregor> I should still have my own login info lying around.
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  394. # [15:22] <annevk> kinda wished we had gone with "idl" in xref rather than "webidl"
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  397. # [15:28] <annevk> so URL terminology
  398. # [15:28] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  399. # [15:28] <annevk> URL is a string
  400. # [15:28] <annevk> there's relative and absolute URLs (also both strings)
  401. # [15:28] <annevk> parsed URL is the object you get from parsing a URL
  402. # [15:29] <annevk> conformance of relative URLs hinges upon the base URL in play
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  404. # [15:29] <annevk> (base URL needs to have an hierarchical scheme)
  405. # [15:30] <annevk> absolute URL consists of "scheme", "data", "fragment"; for hierarchical absolute URLs "data" is "domain", "port", "path", "query"
  406. # [15:30] <annevk> for others it depends
  407. # [15:32] <annevk> relative URLs are either relative authority relative URLs (start with //), query relative URLs (start with ?), fragment relative URLs (start with #), or path relative URLs (anything else)
  408. # [15:33] <annevk> "http:path" weirdness is non-conforming
  409. # [15:33] <annevk> because it depends on the base URL whether it's relative or absolute
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  412. # [15:35] <annevk> and I'm not a 100% sure about URLUtils.valid anymore as it does not say much about whether the input was conforming, just whether parsing did not result in failure
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  419. # [15:47] <scott_gonzalez> Shouldn't dialog.showModal() set focus to the dialog element itself if there is no autofocus element? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/commands.html#dom-dialog-showmodal
  420. # [15:47] <scott_gonzalez> Or is step 9 saying that the dialog shouldn't even open in that case?
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  426. # [15:59] <GPHemsley> AryehGregor: Where do you want me to send/put it?
  427. # [16:00] <annevk> scott_gonzalez: it's saying focus is not changed in that case
  428. # [16:00] <annevk> scott_gonzalez: it's opened the moment the open attribute is added
  429. # [16:01] <scott_gonzalez> annevk: Wouldn't a modal dialog without focus be a problem?
  430. # [16:02] <annevk> scott_gonzalez: why?
  431. # [16:02] <scott_gonzalez> Because you can't interact with anything other than the dialog, but focus is outside of the dialog.
  432. # [16:02] <annevk> (it does seem like there should be some integration of the inertness concept and focusing)
  433. # [16:02] <scott_gonzalez> How would a keyboard user accomplish anything in that case?
  434. # [16:03] <scott_gonzalez> And how would screen readers know to announce the dialog if it doesn't have focus?
  435. # [16:03] <annevk> well the other things are marked inert so cannot be interacted with either
  436. # [16:03] <scott_gonzalez> Should I bring this to WAI PF?
  437. # [16:03] <annevk> presumably that means the focus is on the Window
  438. # [16:03] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
  439. # [16:03] <annevk> scott_gonzalez: I'd raise it on the WHATWG list
  440. # [16:03] <scott_gonzalez> ok
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  445. # [16:05] <Stevef> scott_gonzalez: I would suggest focus needs to move to the dialog itself
  446. # [16:05] <scott_gonzalez> Stevef: That is my thought as well, and what we do in jQuery UI.
  447. # [16:06] * Quits: AryehGregor (~Simetrica@mediawiki/simetrical) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  448. # [16:08] <annevk> is <dialog> defined as focusable element though?
  449. # [16:10] <scott_gonzalez> I'm not sure, but presumably it should be if there are no requirements for a focusable close button.
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  452. # [16:10] <scott_gonzalez> I would think that `control` should fallback to the first tab focusable element if no element with autofocus exists.
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  454. # [16:13] <annevk> scott_gonzalez: anyway, email the list explaining the potential problems and I'm sure Hixie will address it
  455. # [16:13] <annevk> bbl
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  461. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> "relative authority relative URLs" don't roll off the tongue so well
  462. # [16:21] <jgraham> heh
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  466. # [16:24] <annevk> MikeSmith: I was just thinking about that some more, I think they're actually scheme-relative URLs
  467. # [16:24] <annevk> authority-relative would be path/fragment/query combined, but I don't think we need a name for that
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  469. # [16:25] <annevk> MikeSmith: oh I see, the double usage of "relative", heh
  470. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> yeah that part
  471. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> I meant
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  473. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> annevk: anyway, fwiw, all you outlined above earlier sounds sane to me
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  475. # [16:28] <annevk> the thing the IETF is not going to like is that this stuff is scheme-dependent
  476. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> right
  477. # [16:28] <annevk> but at least for the hierarchical stuff that's how it's implemented
  478. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> but that is a face
  479. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> *fact
  480. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> yeah, what you said
  481. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> if they don't like reality there's not much we can do about that
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  484. # [16:29] <MikeSmith> and I don't really think it's so widespread a dislike at the IETF
  485. # [16:29] <MikeSmith> I think it's a very vocal minority
  486. # [16:29] <MikeSmith> or a kind of "Moral Majority"
  487. # [16:30] <MikeSmith> I really wonder what causes people to turn from being pragmatic into becoming techno-reactionaries
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  492. # [16:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: you want as "Michael™ Smith" in the acknowledgments or without the ™?
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  494. # [16:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: and apologies for adding you so late, and even more apologies to abarth!
  495. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> annevk: I didn't do much
  496. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> but if you put me, with the tm in some form is great
  497. # [16:35] <GPHemsley> AryehGregor_: Where do you want me to send/put it?
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  516. # [17:05] <[tm]> wow http://labs.ft.com/2012/06/text-re-encoding-for-optimising-storage-capacity-in-the-browser/
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  522. # [17:11] <hsivonen> [tm]: so sad
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  525. # [17:17] <GPHemsley> Hixie: I can't find any external contenteditable standard, and it seems to still be in HTML.
  526. # [17:18] <annevk> GPHemsley: that wiki page is talking about http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/editing/raw-file/tip/editing.html
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  529. # [17:27] <GPHemsley> annevk: Ah, thanks.
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  541. # [17:51] <annevk> GPHemsley: btw, were you planning on maintaining mimesniff?
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  543. # [17:52] <annevk> GPHemsley: if you need help in retrofitting what's there now as input for Anolis, let me know
  544. # [17:53] <GPHemsley> annevk: I hadn't thought about it, but I could give it a shot...
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  546. # [17:54] <GPHemsley> annevk: If you're referring to the error I mentioned a while back, it was just the first one I grabbed.
  547. # [17:54] <GPHemsley> annevk: But if you're looking to lighten your load
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  549. # [17:57] <annevk> GPHemsley: heh, I'm not doing anything with it at the moment and I don't think abarth is either
  550. # [17:57] <GPHemsley> yeah, was just gonna ask
  551. # [17:58] <GPHemsley> (I just assumed it was you, until I looked)
  552. # [17:58] <annevk> GPHemsley: not sure much needs to be done other than font sniffing, but there's a few other MIME related matters that could use looking at
  553. # [17:58] <GPHemsley> Did we ever get an answer as to where the source was?
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  555. # [18:01] <annevk> I suspect either abarth has it or lost it
  556. # [18:01] <annevk> judging by https://github.com/abarth/websec/tree/master/drafts it was never in git
  557. # [18:01] <jgraham> Um, why don't the FT people just use some proper form of compression on the data they want to store?
  558. # [18:03] <[tm]> annevk: GPHemsley : i think before maybe abarth wasusin some
  559. # [18:03] <[tm]> some xml thing
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  561. # [18:04] <[tm]> so that he could generate the ietf version
  562. # [18:05] <[tm]> in whatever asshat format that requires
  563. # [18:06] <annevk> GPHemsley: but it hardly has any cross-references so rewriting it back to normal is trivial
  564. # [18:06] <GPHemsley> annevk: Well, I don't have any experience using anolis, so I'd need guidance either way ;)
  565. # [18:07] <annevk> GPHemsley: I can make the Overview.src.html, was planning on doing that anyway
  566. # [18:07] <GPHemsley> alrighty
  567. # [18:08] <annevk> but yeah, with regards to MIME; MIME type parsing needs to be defined at some point
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  569. # [18:08] <annevk> string -> parsing -> MIME object -> serialize (with options such as without parameters, lowercase)
  570. # [18:09] <annevk> and then everything in the platform that takes a MIME type needs to hook into that somehow
  571. # [18:09] <annevk> (or not)
  572. # [18:09] <annevk> and no longer tying MIME to IANA would also be nice
  573. # [18:13] <GPHemsley> annevk: You'd still want to have a registry though, no?
  574. # [18:14] <annevk> GPHemsley: yeah, wiki thing
  575. # [18:14] <GPHemsley> hmm
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  578. # [18:19] <[tm]> the wiki thing in practice is not proving to be so brilliant
  579. # [18:21] <[tm]> though it's still better than the byzantine iana etc. stuff
  580. # [18:21] <GPHemsley> [tm]: What are the problems?
  581. # [18:22] <[tm]> GPHemsley: with the iana way?
  582. # [18:22] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  583. # [18:22] <GPHemsley> [tm]: No, with the wiki way
  584. # [18:22] <[tm]> ah
  585. # [18:23] <[tm]> there's an open bug about that
  586. # [18:23] <[tm]> remind me later if you care enough
  587. # [18:23] <[tm]> away from my pc now
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  590. # [18:24] <GPHemsley> k
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  592. # [18:25] <[tm]> the rel registry at micriformats.org is particularly FUBAR by design
  593. # [18:25] <GPHemsley> http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values
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  595. # [18:26] <[tm]> was a bad idea to hitch sny wagon to that mess
  596. # [18:27] <GPHemsley> can it be unhitched?
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  598. # [18:27] <[tm]> i sure hope so
  599. # [18:28] <[tm]> if common sense can eventually prevail
  600. # [18:28] <GPHemsley> You know what would be cool? If using a +modifier on a mailing list e-mail address automatically added it in brackets to the subject
  601. # [18:28] <GPHemsley> e.g. whatwg+mimesniff@whatwg.org => [mimesniff] sadfasdfj
  602. # [18:29] <GPHemsley> and likewise, subscribing to such e-mail addresses would only give you the messages prefixed as such
  603. # [18:29] <GPHemsley> then, those who want everything can subscribe to whatwg@whatwg.org
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  605. # [18:30] <GPHemsley> and those who don't can subscribe only to the modifiers they want
  606. # [18:30] <GPHemsley> though I imagine someone will have to talk to the Mailman developers about that
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  643. # [19:17] <GPHemsley> ugh, the structure of an MP3 is annoyingly variable
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  652. # [19:38] <GPHemsley> Where does the code that powers the website live? And who's in charge of that?
  653. # [19:40] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i like the one where the guy says application/xhtml+xml and application/xml are in any way different
  654. # [19:41] <Hixie> MikeSmith: fwiw i'm planning on ignoring those, sometime next year i'll figure out a more practical way of documenting Content-Type values
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  656. # [19:41] <Hixie> annevk: i think that table was by dbaron, but i could be wrong
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  659. # [19:45] <Hixie> GPHemsley: i encourage you not to write text that is less accurate than possible in the interests of political correctness
  660. # [19:46] <Hixie> GPHemsley: e.g. webdatabase is dead, it's not "not being actively maintained"
  661. # [19:46] <Hixie> GPHemsley: politically correct phraseaology tends to mislead people who aren't familiar with the politics
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  667. # [19:53] <GPHemsley> Hixie: IMO, saying it is dead is the language that is less accurate than possible. A spec cannot be "dead" so long as the document is still present and available.
  668. # [19:53] <Hixie> that's like saying a person can't be dead while the corpse isn't ceremated :-)
  669. # [19:53] <GPHemsley> Not really, because a spec can be resurrected at a future date (just like with HTML)
  670. # [19:54] <Hixie> HTML never died
  671. # [19:54] <Hixie> but would "abandoned" be better?
  672. # [19:54] <GPHemsley> I suppose, as long as you keep the date, as well.
  673. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: If it's editorial, feel free to make the edit yourself, and ping me about it. Just be sure to honor the indentation/line-breaking style of the spec you're editting. ^_^
  674. # [19:55] <Hixie> i changed the date to "late 2010" since it's hard to pin down exactly when it was last maintained (it was certainly before the last date on the spec)
  675. # [19:55] <Hixie> (since i stopped working on it months before people asked for the warning to be added on the w3c copy)
  676. # [19:55] <GPHemsley> Very well
  677. # [19:55] <Hixie> (i even stopped working on it months before i deleted it out of the whatwg copy)
  678. # [19:56] <Hixie> (which itself was long before the warning was added)
  679. # [19:56] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: see http://www.w3.org/mid/5083ED64.1090402@kozea.fr
  680. # [19:58] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Are the W3C versions of workers, sockets, storage, and server-side events identical to the language in the WHATWG HTML spec?
  681. # [19:58] <Hixie> the headers are definitely different
  682. # [19:59] <GPHemsley> content-wise
  683. # [19:59] <GPHemsley> normatively
  684. # [19:59] <Hixie> dunno how much the bodies differ, think the gorup froze the non-dev versions for TR/ publication
  685. # [19:59] <Hixie> i don't pay much attention
  686. # [20:00] <GPHemsley> well, these links are to the dev versions
  687. # [20:00] <Hixie> those should be more or less identical, at least in ways that matter
  688. # [20:01] <Hixie> certainly much more so than the w3c html5 spec
  689. # [20:01] <GPHemsley> I'm just wondering if the relationship between HTML5 and HTML is significantly different from the rest to warrant two different sections
  690. # [20:01] <Hixie> ah
  691. # [20:01] <GPHemsley> Because HTML5 is unambiguously a fork; perhaps the others strictly aren't.
  692. # [20:01] <Hixie> i wouldn't worry about it
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  697. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: I'm fine with changing it to "CSS in", but the "dot" is intentionally ambiguous, and should be defined wherever it is used. (I might not be doing this in Images 3 right now.)
  698. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> In MQ, it's device pixels. In Images, it's image pixels.
  699. # [20:05] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Also, if you could double-check the names for the former sections of the spun-off specs, that'd be great. I don't know where to find those, but I think we should make sure they're correct for anyone looking for them by their old names.
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  701. # [20:05] <GPHemsley> Hixie: In many cases, I had to guess, because I didn't know where to look to find that info.
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  705. # [20:08] <Hixie> GPHemsley: the names changed a lot over time
  706. # [20:08] <Hixie> GPHemsley: which names should we list?
  707. # [20:09] <GPHemsley> the most recent one before it was spun off
  708. # [20:09] <GPHemsley> I think
  709. # [20:09] <Hixie> that should almost always be the same as the new spec's name
  710. # [20:09] <GPHemsley> Oh, hmm
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  712. # [20:10] <Hixie> actually /tr/html5 might actually be useful for this purpose :-)
  713. # [20:10] <GPHemsley> ah! :)
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  715. # [20:11] <Hixie> yeah if you go back far enough you should be able to use those to find section names
  716. # [20:11] <Hixie> i expect in many cases it'll be difficult to pick one section name, though
  717. # [20:13] <GPHemsley> alright, I'll take a look
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  719. # [20:15] <scott_gonzalez> Hixie: When I said that dialog's control should fall back to the first tab focusable element, I meant within the dialog, which would exclude the body.
  720. # [20:15] <Hixie> doesn't make any difference, does it?
  721. # [20:15] <scott_gonzalez> Well, it does in terms of what has focus to get exposed to AT.
  722. # [20:16] <scott_gonzalez> You said "This is no different than when the page first loads. If nothing has
  723. # [20:16] <scott_gonzalez> autofocus="", or if no script calls .focus(), then nothing in the page has
  724. # [20:16] <scott_gonzalez> focus."
  725. # [20:16] <scott_gonzalez> But the body gets focus in that case.
  726. # [20:16] <Hixie> not really
  727. # [20:16] <Hixie> the body having focus is one of those weird hacks that's not entirely true but we mostly pretend
  728. # [20:16] <Hixie> anyway, i would expect ATs to implement <dialog> natively and report that a dialog was opened, and act accordingly
  729. # [20:17] <tantek> [t m] why do you say "wiki thing in practice is not proving to be so brilliant" and "particularly FUBAR by design" ? do you have specific problems or suggested improvements?
  730. # [20:17] <tantek> [tm]
  731. # [20:17] <scott_gonzalez> So I guess I should ask browser vendors if they will expose the information when the dialog doesn't have focus?
  732. # [20:18] <Hixie> scott_gonzalez: what information?
  733. # [20:18] <scott_gonzalez> That the dialog has opened.
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  735. # [20:18] <scott_gonzalez> If you do this in JS and use ARIA, I'm fairly certain nothing is announced unless the dialog gets focus.
  736. # [20:19] <Hixie> it'd be pretty inaccessible if you didn't report it
  737. # [20:19] <Hixie> ARIA has nothing to do with this
  738. # [20:19] <scott_gonzalez> I realize ARIA isn't involved here.
  739. # [20:19] <scott_gonzalez> But it's the only thing I can reference in terms of what browsers are exposing right now.
  740. # [20:20] <scott_gonzalez> For example, you can't have an alert() that doesn't get focus.
  741. # [20:20] <tantek> for anything microformats related, e.g. the rel-registry http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values, feel free to also /join #microformats and ask questions / provide feedback there
  742. # [20:20] <tantek> we'll continue to make improvements as people point out specific problems or make specific suggestions. thanks!
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  744. # [20:21] <Hixie> scott_gonzalez: i think there are multiple things here that you are conflating but that are separate.
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  746. # [20:21] <Hixie> scott_gonzalez: 1. reporting to the user that there is a (modal) dialog. 2. the keyboard focus. 3. the AT focus.
  747. # [20:22] <Hixie> scott_gonzalez: on Mac, if a dialog comes up, the app has keyboard focus, but no control in the dialog need have focus. a control will have AT focus, however.
  748. # [20:23] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Wrt the republications, why do you feel that it should be emphasized that the work is originally done in the WHATWG? (The entire page is already referring specifically to the WHATWG standard.)
  749. # [20:24] <Hixie> GPHemsley: because people have accused me of stealing from the w3c html spec and that pisses me off
  750. # [20:24] <GPHemsley> ah, ok :)
  751. # [20:24] <Hixie> :-)
  752. # [20:28] <scott_gonzalez> Hixie: I see what you're saying. So it's impossible to fully emulate the focus with JavaScript, correct?
  753. # [20:29] <scott_gonzalez> Because document.activeElement would continue to be the element that had focus prior to the dialog being shown?
  754. # [20:29] <scott_gonzalez> At least that's the behavior I'm seeing with alert() in Chrome, even while the OK button has focus inside the dialog.
  755. # [20:29] <Hixie> scott_gonzalez: not sure what you mean by "emulate the focus", but when a dialog comes up, if the previously focused element is now inert, it loses focus.
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  759. # [20:31] <scott_gonzalez> If I focus on an element, then run alert() in the console, document.activeElement continues to be the previously focused element.
  760. # [20:31] <scott_gonzalez> But the whole page is inert, correct?
  761. # [20:32] <Hixie> no
  762. # [20:32] <Hixie> alert() is a different OS-level window, it doesn't affect the in-page focus of the previous page
  763. # [20:32] <Hixie> "inert" is a technical term that is used to implement <dialog>
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  765. # [20:40] <scott_gonzalez> I guess I'll just have to wait for an implementation to be available.
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  770. # [20:49] <Hixie> annevk: dude, i'm so not making every non-utf8 doc non-conforming. :-/ https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15332
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  772. # [20:50] <annevk> GPHemsley: for the registrations Hixie had this idea to have a wiki page and move the ones that are proven into the main specification (with reference to another specification if present or otherwise inline)
  773. # [20:51] * nrth is now known as irfaN
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  776. # [20:51] <GPHemsley> Interesting...
  777. # [20:51] <annevk> GPHemsley: either something like that or we'd need someone to make a web service of sorts, but the annoying thing with that is that you need to solve a lot of the same problems with respect to identity and such
  778. # [20:51] <GPHemsley> annevk: Identity of what? The person submitting?
  779. # [20:52] <annevk> GPHemsley: yeah, the nice thing about the wiki is that you already have an account and such
  780. # [20:52] <annevk> nice thing about a web service would be that the validator logic would become a bit simpler, because wiki scraping sucks
  781. # [20:53] <annevk> and the wiki already has history and such too
  782. # [20:53] <GPHemsley> why does identity matter? should only the attachment to a particular spec matter?
  783. # [20:53] <GPHemsley> s/should/shouldn't/
  784. # [20:54] <Hixie> i expect to do this registry stuff sometime next year
  785. # [20:54] <annevk> GPHemsley: you need some kind of protection against spammers
  786. # [20:54] <GPHemsley> annevk: Random spammers or malicious registration spammers?
  787. # [20:55] <annevk> GPHemsley: is there a difference?
  788. # [20:55] <Hixie> need to think about it some more, but i'm thinking there's conforming entries with spec text, non-conforming entries that describe actual use, experimental entries that people want to use, and rejected entries that were experimental and didn't work out
  789. # [20:55] <annevk> Hixie: I need something for URLs too
  790. # [20:55] <GPHemsley> annevk: Well, the former is nonsensical and the latter is... not
  791. # [20:55] <Hixie> annevk: oh there's lots of registries here
  792. # [20:56] <Hixie> mime, rel, meta name are the three big ones i have to deal with
  793. # [20:56] <Hixie> but there are many others
  794. # [20:56] <Hixie> meta name has been interesting, there are SO MANY out there
  795. # [20:57] <Hixie> not sure what we should do with that yet
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  797. # [20:57] <annevk> it's pretty successful too
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  799. # [20:59] <annevk> https://twitter.com/masinter/status/260438941751201792 heh
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  802. # [21:01] <Hixie> annevk: it certainly documents more values than iana would
  803. # [21:01] <annevk> URL schemes is pretty interesting, as it has an effect on parsing
  804. # [21:01] <Hixie> annevk: but it has failed at making authors avoid dumb values
  805. # [21:02] <Hixie> anyway, gotta go to work, bbiab
  806. # [21:03] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.71.130.getinternet.no)
  807. # [21:04] <annevk> I love http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2012Oct/0011.html
  808. # [21:04] <annevk> The way to achieve KISS is by writing specs like the way Hixie wrote HTML, by spelling out every single thing that needs to be done
  809. # [21:04] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.107.190) (Quit: othermaciej)
  810. # [21:05] <annevk> Because only then do you realize a) HTML is actually super complex and b) you could probably design something simpler that does just as well
  811. # [21:05] <annevk> The way to achieve KISS is not by writing simpler specs, it's by coming up with simpler constructs, less variance, etc.
  812. # [21:08] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.71.130.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  813. # [21:08] <GPHemsley> Argh, HTML archaelogy is hard.
  814. # [21:08] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.107.190)
  815. # [21:08] <annevk> GPHemsley: following @mattur on twitter yet?
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  817. # [21:09] <GPHemsley> annevk: No, why?
  818. # [21:09] <divya> he is the doyen of html archealogy
  819. # [21:10] <annevk> The problem with some members of the TAG, like Noah, is that they don't like complex specs for some reason, but we're only describing what was already out there. We're not even introducing new complexity in many cases. Far more often reducing it (e.g. the Encoding Standard makes many simplifications over what we have now).
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  821. # [21:11] <GPHemsley> annevk, divya: Well, it's made more difficult by the fact that github is treating the (W3C-converted?) source as a binary file, even though it's all text.
  822. # [21:11] <annevk> Most of the HTML standard is about reducing complexity too. First you had 4+ different complex HTML parser implementations. Now you have 4+ equivalent complex HTML parser implementations (that all got slightly saner too).
  823. # [21:11] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.98.194) (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
  824. # [21:11] <annevk> GPHemsley: use http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker ?
  825. # [21:12] * JohnAlbin is now known as JohnAlbin_zzzzzz
  826. # [21:12] <GPHemsley> I need access to the contents of the file itself at a given revision
  827. # [21:12] <GPHemsley> I'm trying to track down when things changed
  828. # [21:12] <GPHemsley> in 2009
  829. # [21:12] <GPHemsley> ;)
  830. # [21:13] <GPHemsley> it's alright, I'm almost there
  831. # [21:13] <annevk> GPHemsley: there's a secret parameter named limit
  832. # [21:13] <annevk> GPHemsley: set it -1 and enjoy
  833. # [21:13] <GPHemsley> can't wait to find out what the commit message is, because it's clearly not going to be especially descriptive
  834. # [21:13] <GPHemsley> annevk: The problem is, I don't know what I'm looking for
  835. # [21:13] <GPHemsley> beyond the contents of the file
  836. # [21:14] <GPHemsley> I've narrowed it down to a few days in June 2009
  837. # [21:14] <AryehGregor_> GPHemsley, just give it to me on IRC, or pastebin or something. Or e-mail, which would probably be best because then I'll see it.
  838. # [21:14] * AryehGregor_ is now known as AryehGregor
  839. # [21:14] <GPHemsley> AryehGregor: .name?
  840. # [21:14] <AryehGregor> Oh, you're around right now. So just give it to me on IRC.
  841. # [21:14] <AryehGregor> ?
  842. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> ayg@aryeh.name will work.
  843. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> May as well just tell me on IRC, though, once we're here.
  844. # [21:15] <GPHemsley> AryehGregor: I already had the draft set up, so I sent it via e-mail. :)
  845. # [21:17] <AryehGregor> GPHemsley, try logging in. whatwikiuser@whatwg.org.
  846. # [21:17] <AryehGregor> (yes, it's a shared login and I just added you to authorized_keys)
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  848. # [21:18] <GPHemsley> works, thanks
  849. # [21:18] * GPHemsley is suddenly doing a hundred things at once
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  854. # [21:30] <GPHemsley> annevk: I don't suppose there's a way to view the HTML page as it was at a particular revision?
  855. # [21:30] <GPHemsley> (the compiled version)
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  860. # [21:45] <annevk> GPHemsley: no
  861. # [21:45] <annevk> GPHemsley: I have thought about doing it, but a) the subresources make that complex and b) it would take up a lot of space (but that's not necessarily a problem)
  862. # [21:46] <annevk> GPHemsley: also, usually you can get pretty far by using the W3C snapshots
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  866. # [21:51] <tantek> Hixie - for a while I considered setting up documentation of existing meta name values on the microformats wiki similar to rel values, but to date it's been rejected due to meta name being an encouragement of the use of invisible metadata which is seen as bad (for data quality etc.) in general.
  867. # [21:51] <tantek> what's the utility of "validating" the use of meta names which are likely going to be used to pollute the web anyway?
  868. # [21:53] <tantek> that being said, it does seem like every new semi-popular social content hosting site wants to make up their own meta names (or pseudo-rdfa-like properties, FB OGP ahem) for purposes of "stuff about the page to include when someone posts a link to the page"
  869. # [21:53] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.98.194)
  870. # [21:53] <TabAtkins> hsivonen, annevk: Syntax spec updated to use Anne's list of steps and point to the Encoding Standard.
  871. # [21:53] <tantek> when multiple vendors independently innovate something like that, usually it's a sign that there's a need for a standard to reduce the burden on publishers.
  872. # [21:55] <tantek> so because of that, we may end up documenting research on existing meta name/property usage anyway :/
  873. # [21:55] <tantek> not sure it will be useful as a "registry"
  874. # [21:55] <tantek> but hey, that's how existing-rel-values started (documenting a few things)
  875. # [21:56] <tantek> and then eventually it turned into the most comprehensive documentation of rel values on the web
  876. # [21:57] <tantek> which I think is due more to it being on a wiki page than having anything to do with microformats in particular, although the culture of the microformats community is a very research/documentation-centric culture so that probably had something to do with it.
  877. # [21:57] <tantek> in contrast to a "just email your proposal to a mailing list and the 'experts' will consider it and get back to you eventually" type "culture"
  878. # [21:58] <annevk> TabAtkins: sweet, will review later!
  879. # [21:58] <annevk> MikeSmith: can we get a MIME component under the WHATWG product?
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  884. # [22:10] <annevk> I updated http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/ to be generated from a source file
  885. # [22:10] <annevk> It can use some work still
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  887. # [22:13] <annevk> tantek: that's in part why I moved the specs to GitHub, so people can hack on the text
  888. # [22:13] <annevk> tantek: two pull requests to date, but I'm hoping it'll go better long term
  889. # [22:14] <tantek> annevk - github does lower the barrier to entry to contributing to specs
  890. # [22:14] <tantek> I tried (unsuccessfully) to get the CSSWG to "skip" using HG/mercurial and just wait with CVS a bit longer until it was obvious everyone was going to switch eventually to git/github
  891. # [22:14] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.107.190)
  892. # [22:15] <tantek> to avoid one unnecessary infrastructure transition
  893. # [22:16] <annevk> I should have done that in retrospect, but this works
  894. # [22:16] <annevk> and porting history was easier starting with hg
  895. # [22:16] <tantek> oh ok, that's good then
  896. # [22:18] <annevk> SimonSapin: TabAtkins just updated css3-syntax ;)
  897. # [22:19] <SimonSapin> annevk: yeah, I just saw that. Thanks for your input ;)
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  903. # [22:35] <zcorpan> krijn: log page isn't updating properly
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  905. # [22:46] <krijn> zcorpan: sorry, fixed
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  907. # [22:49] <zcorpan> someone should make a meme of glenn adams' replies to hsivonen on www-style
  908. # [22:56] <jgraham> Hixie: To an excellent approximation, all documents are already invalid, so making UTF8 required for conformance hardly seems like it would make much difference
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  910. # [22:58] <jgraham> othermaciej: I like your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter
  911. # [22:58] <othermaciej> jgraham: which ideas?
  912. # [22:58] <jgraham> Or, more specifically, would like to attend your "how to use mailing lists more productivly" session at TPAC
  913. # [22:59] <jgraham> (I assume you meant it as a plenary day topic rather than a HTMLWG topic?)
  914. # [23:01] * Quits: thisgeek (~chris@ool-45757782.dyn.optonline.net) (Quit: thisgeek)
  915. # [23:02] <othermaciej> I meant it as an HTML WG topic for HTML WG's use of lists specifically, but it sounds like it could also be a good plenary day topic
  916. # [23:03] * Joins: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
  917. # [23:03] <jgraham> Well I guess I am happy with either
  918. # [23:03] * Quits: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: snowfox_ben)
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  921. # [23:04] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: "If label is null, set label to the value of charset attribute on the <link> element that caused the style sheet to be included, if any." this could be xml-stylesheet as well (unless i dropped support for charset there? don't recall)
  922. # [23:05] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.107.190) (Quit: othermaciej)
  923. # [23:05] <zcorpan> anyway, should probably be more generic or just provide a hook for the html spec to use or so
  924. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Tell annevk, I just reused his text with light rephrasing. ^_^
  925. # [23:06] <annevk> TabAtkins: hey, you are responsible now ;)
  926. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> I explicitly disclaim any responsibility for encoding.
  927. # [23:07] <zcorpan> does step 6 match implementations?
  928. # [23:07] <GPHemsley> ALERT: I'm going to be starting the wiki upgrade momentarily. If there are any objections, raise them now. If not, expect the wiki to be a little weird for a while.
  929. # [23:08] <zcorpan> i would have expected that a bogus encoding decl falls back to inheriting the encoding instead of falling back to utf-8
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  931. # [23:08] * Quits: reinaldob (~reinaldob@201.74.207.100) (Remote host closed the connection)
  932. # [23:08] <zcorpan> or look for the next place that declares a label to see if that's a valid label
  933. # [23:08] <annevk> zcorpan: you mean the "get an encoding from label" thing happens between every step?
  934. # [23:08] <GPHemsley> Hixie, annevk, AryehGregor: Any objections?
  935. # [23:09] <zcorpan> annevk: something like that yeah
  936. # [23:09] <annevk> GPHemsley: did you backup?
  937. # [23:09] <GPHemsley> yup
  938. # [23:09] <annevk> GPHemsley: go ahead
  939. # [23:10] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah so if that's the case I guess we need to make things a bit easier
  940. # [23:10] <annevk> zcorpan: not entirely sure how
  941. # [23:10] * Parts: zpmorgan (~zpmorgan@cpe-065-188-162-110.triad.res.rr.com) ("Leaving")
  942. # [23:10] <zcorpan> easier in what way?
  943. # [23:10] <annevk> zcorpan: maybe introduce "known label" as a concept
  944. # [23:11] <annevk> if label is null, set label to the value of the charset attribute on ..., if that is a known label"
  945. # [23:12] <zcorpan> oh easier to spec
  946. # [23:12] * tantek scrolls up, reading about UTF-8 and validity
  947. # [23:12] <zcorpan> i don't see why that's easier than the current "get an encoding", offhand
  948. # [23:13] <annevk> try to rephrase that using get an encoding
  949. # [23:13] <tantek> othermaciej - if you did that as a plenary day topic, I would be very tempted to show up and take notes in order to capture them on the wiki ;)
  950. # [23:13] <annevk> you only want to set label if get an encoding does not return failure basically
  951. # [23:13] <annevk> at least, it seems to be that's what you're saying, this is all untested thus far
  952. # [23:14] <tantek> hmm, I think I would be ok with making UTF-8 required for HTML5 documents.
  953. # [23:14] <tantek> is that the basic idea jgraham?
  954. # [23:14] <annevk> GPHemsley: any chance we can configure the wiki to not have the redundant /wiki/ thing and redirect the old stuff?
  955. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> That would effectively make <meta charset=utf-8> a required part of every document, since documents default to something else.
  956. # [23:15] <GPHemsley> annevk: One thing at a time :)
  957. # [23:15] <annevk> GPHemsley: not sure if it's worth it btw
  958. # [23:15] <zcorpan> annevk: i'd just abort the algorithm once an encoding is found (or jump to the last step)
  959. # [23:15] <annevk> TabAtkins: yeah, that or a BOM or a content-type
  960. # [23:16] * Joins: miketaylrrrr (~miketaylr@206.217.98.194)
  961. # [23:16] <tantek> annevk - we're actually thinking of making that same change (dropping the need for /wiki/ ) at microformats.org, since the wiki is where the newest content has all ended up, and the other semi-static areas (all in WordPress) are not as interesting.
  962. # [23:16] <annevk> zcorpan: still seems like that would be pretty unwieldy
  963. # [23:16] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.98.194) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  964. # [23:17] <tantek> new community sites are wiki-based but without the /wiki/ , e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/
  965. # [23:17] <tantek> (as used by #indiewebcamp )
  966. # [23:17] <annevk> well we already have wiki.whatwg.org
  967. # [23:17] <annevk> and then another /wiki/ to boot
  968. # [23:18] * Joins: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-ucrjfxxxxyxdeawh)
  969. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> tantek: I didn't even realize there was a non-wiki portion of Microformats.org
  970. # [23:18] <tantek> Exactly my point Tabatkins
  971. # [23:19] <tantek> in 2005, we used the building blocks for independent community as we best understood them.
  972. # [23:19] <tantek> over time we've learned what works and what doesn't, what becomes a good source of the latest "truth" and what becomes a "support forum" ;)
  973. # [23:20] <annevk> oh god
  974. # [23:21] * miketaylrrrr is now known as miketaylr
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  976. # [23:23] * Joins: jsoncorwin (~textual@c-67-170-235-108.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  977. # [23:23] <zcorpan> annevk: data:text/html;charset=windows-1251,<!DOCTYPE%20html>%0A<link%20rel%3Dstylesheet%20charset%3D"bogus"%20href%3D"data%3Atext%2Fcss%3Bcharset%3Dbogus%2C%40charset%20%26quot%3Bbogus%26quot%3B%3B%20body%3A%3Abefore%20%7B%20content%3A'%C3%A9'%20%7D">x%20
  978. # [23:23] <annevk> GPHemsley: well now we know you're maintaining we're gonna spam you of course :-)
  979. # [23:23] <GPHemsley> :)
  980. # [23:23] <zcorpan> starting point; haven't figured out what actually happens
  981. # [23:23] <zcorpan> now i need sleep
  982. # [23:25] * Quits: dgathright (~dgathrigh@nat/yahoo/x-ucksbdvhrbzokjrk) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  983. # [23:25] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.19.229.getinternet.no)
  984. # [23:25] <tantek> GPHemsely - thanks for maintaining the wiki - greatly appreciated.
  985. # [23:25] <tantek> GPHemsley even :)
  986. # [23:25] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
  987. # [23:25] * Quits: jamesr (jamesr@nat/google/x-qgbqebcoryzvkvdv) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  988. # [23:26] <GPHemsley> don't thank me yet :P
  989. # [23:29] * Quits: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com) (Quit: yodasw16)
  990. # [23:30] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.19.229.getinternet.no) (Client Quit)
  991. # [23:30] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.186.164)
  992. # [23:31] * Joins: danzik171 (~danzik17@164.55.254.106)
  993. # [23:31] <zcorpan> what's up with the whatwg wiki?
  994. # [23:32] <annevk> GPHemsley is updating it
  995. # [23:33] <GPHemsley> OK, the wiki is back up, but I have to figure out why the short URLs are broken
  996. # [23:33] <Hixie> jgraham: that seems a bit harsh
  997. # [23:33] <Hixie> GPHemsley: you know abotu the blame.r* files right?
  998. # [23:33] <zcorpan> ah
  999. # [23:34] <GPHemsley> Hixie: No, where are they?
  1000. # [23:34] * Quits: danzik17 (~danzik17@164.55.254.106) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  1001. # [23:34] <zcorpan> Hixie: what bad effects would a utf-8 requirement cause?
  1002. # [23:35] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/blame.r* where the values of blame.r* are: (please hold, your call is important to us)
  1003. # [23:36] * Quits: danzik171 (~danzik17@164.55.254.106) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  1004. # [23:36] <annevk> tantek: can't find the license of the microformats wiki
  1005. # [23:36] <Hixie> blame.r0005 blame.r0050 blame.r0500 blame.r0954 blame.r1000 blame.r1250 blame.r1500 blame.r1838 blame.r1863 blame.r1936 blame.r1976 blame.r1980 blame.r2000 blame.r2200 blame.r2216 blame.r2500 blame.r2800 blame.r2905 blame.r2947 blame.r3000 blame.r3075 blame.r3250 blame.r3500 blame.r4000 blame.r4667 blame.r5000 blame.r5287 blame.r5372 blame.r5600 blame.r6000 blame.r6400 blame.r6666 blame.r7000 blame.r7393
  1006. # [23:36] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@nat/mozilla/x-ioahpgnafbsipgqu)
  1007. # [23:36] <tantek> annevk - CC)
  1008. # [23:36] <tantek> er
  1009. # [23:36] <tantek> CC0
  1010. # [23:36] <tantek> it's on every edit that's done
  1011. # [23:36] <zcorpan> maybe there would be more stuff being mislabeled as utf-8 when it's not in fact utf-8
  1012. # [23:36] <tantek> since the end of 2007
  1013. # [23:37] * Joins: Stevef__ (~chatzilla@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  1014. # [23:37] <annevk> tantek: but it's not stated anywhere visibly
  1015. # [23:37] <tantek> every edit since then was a required public domain contribution per Creative Commons, forward compatible with CC0
  1016. # [23:37] <Hixie> zcorpan: just seems like make-work for people who are happily using win1252 or whatever.
  1017. # [23:37] <tantek> it is on the Copyright page
  1018. # [23:37] <Hixie> zcorpan: not saying that utf-8 shouldn't be _strongly_ recommended, but still, non-utf-8 still works
  1019. # [23:38] <annevk> tantek: link? cannot find that
  1020. # [23:38] <zcorpan> Hixie: only if you don't mind being limited to ascii for new features where we require utf-8
  1021. # [23:38] <Hixie> zcorpan: like what?
  1022. # [23:38] <zcorpan> like workers
  1023. # [23:39] <Hixie> can't put html in workers
  1024. # [23:39] <tantek> annevk: LMGTFY microformats copyright http://microformats.org/wiki/Microformats_Wiki:Copyrights
  1025. # [23:39] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Ah, very nice, thanks!
  1026. # [23:39] <tantek> :)
  1027. # [23:39] <zcorpan> Hixie: so? you can put text in a worker and send text from an html page to a worker
  1028. # [23:40] <annevk> tantek: I guess Google would have been a better choice than using the microformats wiki search
  1029. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> "
  1030. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> "can't put html in workers" yet.
  1031. # [23:40] <tantek> Google > MediaWiki search feature
  1032. # [23:40] <tantek> I don't search wikipedia
  1033. # [23:40] <tantek> I search Google for wikipedia term-that-i'm-looking-for
  1034. # [23:40] <GPHemsley> Yay! Wiki is back
  1035. # [23:40] <tantek> Yay!
  1036. # [23:41] <Hixie> zcorpan: by that point it's UTF-16, so that seems like a non-issue
  1037. # [23:41] * Quits: michaeln (michaeln@nat/google/x-ymsyesfwljfubhtp) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1038. # [23:41] <GPHemsley> If anybody finds any problems, let me know.
  1039. # [23:42] <zcorpan> Hixie: not when the author writes the worker and the html page in a text editor and saves them both as win1252
  1040. # [23:42] <tantek> still, annevk, it's a good point, and more discoverability helps.
  1041. # [23:42] * tantek goes to create some redirects
  1042. # [23:43] <annevk> GPHemsley: MIT License image seems broken
  1043. # [23:43] <GPHemsley> annevk: Link?
  1044. # [23:43] <tantek> ok, wiki search for copyright should work again
  1045. # [23:43] <tantek> er, should work *now*
  1046. # [23:43] <Hixie> zcorpan: well we already require that workers be utf-8, so if they're already ignoring that, surely they'll ignore our requirement for HTML too
  1047. # [23:43] <annevk> GPHemsley: oh, it doesn't link anywhere
  1048. # [23:43] <GPHemsley> annevk: BTW, MediaWiki docs seems to discourage having the wiki at the top level
  1049. # [23:44] * Joins: michaeln (michaeln@nat/google/x-sydlwjbwpjwqpdph)
  1050. # [23:44] <annevk> GPHemsley: footer could use some cleanup in general
  1051. # [23:44] <annevk> GPHemsley: mkay, guess we can keep it this way, but it's rather ugly
  1052. # [23:45] <annevk> Hixie: the idea is just to align the requirement so the message becomes a lot simpler
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  1055. # [23:45] <zcorpan> Hixie: that's not what i'm trying to say. :-) i mean Joe will be happy with win1252 until he tries to use workers, where non-ascii don't work for him. either he'll switch everything to utf-8 or just use ascii for the worker.
  1056. # [23:46] <Hixie> zcorpan: i'm all in favour of us pushing Joe to UTF-8 everywhere. But I think saying you just can't use Win1252 or whatever, when it's working fine, is way more drastic than necessary.
  1057. # [23:46] <Hixie> the validator could give a big-ass warning
  1058. # [23:46] <zcorpan> ok
  1059. # [23:47] <annevk> it's fine until you put a <form> in your page
  1060. # [23:47] <annevk> or a link with a query string to another server
  1061. # [23:47] <annevk> it's not really fine
  1062. # [23:47] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.98.194) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  1063. # [23:47] * zcorpan *poof*
  1064. # [23:48] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@81-231-170-159-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1065. # [23:48] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@81-231-170-159-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  1066. # [23:48] <Hixie> that was an unconvincing disappearance :-P
  1067. # [23:49] <Hixie> annevk: what's wrong with having a form in the page?
  1068. # [23:49] <annevk> Hixie: user entering non-windows-1252 code points
  1069. # [23:50] <annevk> Hixie: could be even worse if the forms contents are submitted through XHR to the server (will use utf-8)
  1070. # [23:50] <annevk> there's so many encoding traps
  1071. # [23:51] <Hixie> those codepoints just get collapsed into other text, right?
  1072. # [23:52] <annevk> for <form> submission the server will get some HTML entity looking like things which it cannot distinguish from actually entered HTML entities
  1073. # [23:52] <annevk> for <form> submission through XHR the server will get utf-8 which it might not know how to deal with considering it is outputting windows-1252
  1074. # [23:52] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@81-231-170-159-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  1075. # [23:53] <Hixie> yeah, well, like i said. we should encouarge people to use utf-8.
  1076. # [23:54] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@192.150.22.55) (Quit: Leaving.)
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  1078. # [23:55] <jgraham> All a validator can do for anything is issue "big-ass warnings"
  1079. # [23:55] <jgraham> Some of them will be marked "error", but that isn't strongly correlated with them actually producing erroneous behaviour
  1080. # [23:56] <jgraham> It does, however, seem very odd not to use the warning marked "error" in a case where erroneous behaviour is quite likely
  1081. # [23:59] <tantek> Hixie, how hard is it to get form submissions to use UTF-8?
  1082. # [23:59] <Hixie> as an author? not hard at al
  1083. # [23:59] <Hixie> l
  1084. # [23:59] <tantek> URL?
  1085. # [23:59] <tantek> (of explanatory example)
  1086. # [23:59] <annevk> tantek: <form accept-charset=utf-8>
  1087. # [23:59] <tantek> does anyone do it?
  1088. # [23:59] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-form-accept-charset
  1089. # Session Close: Tue Oct 23 00:00:00 2012

The end :)