/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-10-22 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Oct 22 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [05:57] <Hixie> ;
# [05:57] <Hixie> oops
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# [09:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19582
# [09:32] <MikeSmith> have you ever heard of those?
# [09:32] <MikeSmith> I wonder how widely used they are
# [09:32] <MikeSmith> coap and coaps
# [09:32] <MikeSmith> schemes
# [09:33] <MikeSmith> I assume the criteria for whitelisting schemes is that they are actually used
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# [09:35] <MikeSmith> or actually that there are Web sites that handle them, than can process them
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# [10:05] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I'm gonna forward a couple more comments I got back from IANA for other media-type registration requests
# [10:05] <MikeSmith> do with them what you will
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# [10:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you know what the deal is with http://idpf.org/epub/30/spec/epub30-ocf.html#app-media-type purporting to contain a registration but the type is not in the registry?
# [10:11] * MikeSmith looks now
# [10:12] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I can only surmise that they have not actually submitted the registration request to IANA yet
# [10:12] <hsivonen> ok
# [10:12] <MikeSmith> despite the statement "This appendix registers"
# [10:12] <MikeSmith> there unfortunately is no way to tell if anybody has submitted a particular media-type request to IANA
# [10:13] <hsivonen> It surprises me a bit considering that Murata Makoto seems to have experience with navigating the registration procedure.
# [10:13] <MikeSmith> because you have to submit requests to a non-archived address, and then they respond privately
# [10:14] <MikeSmith> I guess the procedure has changed since the last time Murata-san got something registered
# [10:14] <MikeSmith> I can ask him about that one if you want
# [10:15] <hsivonen> no need.
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# [10:16] <MikeSmith> ok
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# [10:30] <hsivonen> sigh. reloading document.written docs. can’t we just do what WebKit does...
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# [11:12] <jgraham> hsivonen: What does WebKit do?
# [11:12] <jgraham> And "yes, probably, if you implement it in Gecko"
# [11:13] <jgraham> (I sort of recall that WebKit does something dumb though)
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# [11:53] <hsivonen> jgraham: WebKit loads the URL that the location object represents
# [11:54] <jgraham> That sounds familiar
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# [11:54] <jgraham> It seems simple and user-hostile
# [11:54] <hsivonen> yes
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# [11:55] <hsivonen> whoa. looks like glazou implemented EPUB2 after all
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# [12:03] <Stevef> FYI requested <main> element spec to be published as FPWD and listed recent changes http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Oct/0133.html
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# [12:12] <Stevef> a question to any of the WHATWG regulars: am unclear whether its OK for me to continue to ask for feedback on <main> on the WHATWG list, any thoughts?
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# [12:16] <annevk> FYI: I'll be at TPAC
# [12:16] <jgraham> Yay
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# [12:19] <annevk> Thanks to hsivonen and Mozilla
# [12:19] <jgraham> You are being smuggled in his suitecase?
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# [12:23] <annevk> Yes
# [12:24] * hsivonen is planning to travel with a backpack
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# [12:34] <annevk> :-)
# [12:34] <annevk> Stevef: yes
# [12:34] <annevk> Stevef: HTML is definitely on topic
# [12:37] <Stevef> annevk: ok thanks
# [12:43] <Stevef> annevk: i want to ensure that all people who may be interested in it are aware that its being developed and have the opportunity to provide input
# [12:43] <annevk> Yeah, makes sense to me
# [12:48] <hsivonen> @charset handling in Gecko is interesting
# [12:49] <hsivonen> if the @charset rule itself in encoded in BOMless UTF-16, Gecko will carefully decode @charset as UTF-16 and then decode the whole stylesheet according to whatever encoding was declared
# [12:49] <hsivonen> even though a non-UTF-16 encoding must be bogus
# [12:49] <hsivonen> since in the case of non-UTF-16, @charset itself wouldn’t be UTF-16
# [12:50] <annevk> that's kinda messed up
# [12:50] <hsivonen> so much brokenness because of UTF-16
# [12:50] <annevk> that should just fail or something
# [12:50] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: isn’t that what is specified in http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#charset ?
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# [12:51] <annevk> SimonSapin: where does it say there that a utf-16 encoded @charset but with @charset not listing a utf-16 encoding, it should decode it per the listed encoding?
# [12:52] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: apparently yes! the spec is messed up, too!
# [12:52] <hsivonen> annevk: see the table
# [12:52] <annevk> hmm really?! the fuck
# [12:52] <annevk> I wonder if Hixie is to blame for that table
# [12:53] <hsivonen> also, the spec supports UTF-32
# [12:53] <SimonSapin> I think this is to be rewritten in css3-syntax. Input on this subject is greatly appreciated: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-syntax/#the-input-byte-stream
# [12:54] <annevk> I think utf-16 should only be supported out-of-band-or-BOM
# [12:54] <annevk> so you just check for ASCII "@charset" at the start and go with that
# [12:55] <annevk> then you drop utf-32
# [12:55] <annevk> and only support what the Encoding Standard says
# [12:55] <hsivonen> also, CSS3 Syntax makes the default UTF-8
# [12:55] <annevk> including the BOM handling of the Encoding Standard (by reference)
# [12:55] <hsivonen> not that it matters, unless you support loading CSS without a referring Document
# [12:55] <hsivonen> wait
# [12:56] <SimonSapin> annevk: feel free to send this to www-style :)
# [12:56] <hsivonen> CSS3 syntax doesn’t inherit from Document
# [12:56] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: what do you mean?
# [12:57] <annevk> is inheritance from Document also cross-origin?
# [12:57] <hsivonen> annevk: good question
# [12:57] <annevk> SimonSapin: if your HTML is windows-1252 and your CSS does not say, it's windows-1252 too
# [12:57] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: what annevk said
# [12:57] <SimonSapin> oh, inheriting the encoding
# [12:58] <annevk> and I think inheritance should not work for utf-16 (that means utf-8 again or some such)
# [12:58] <SimonSapin> css 2.1 does that. The new syntax draft should too, but I guess that part just hasn’t been written yet
# [12:58] <hsivonen> annevk: good point
# [12:59] <hsivonen> All this would be so much simpler if UTF-16 had never been used for interchange
# [13:00] <SimonSapin> why does utf16 require special treatment?
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# [13:01] <annevk> SimonSapin: because it's the only non-ASCII-compatible encoding
# [13:01] <hsivonen> http://memegenerator.net/instance/28773378
# [13:02] <annevk> SimonSapin: and generally people have no idea what they're doing
# [13:02] <SimonSapin> even the various CJK encodings are ascii-compatible?
# [13:02] <annevk> SimonSapin: yes, see the Encoding Standard
# [13:02] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: yes.
# [13:02] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: UTF-16 is the only encoding that doesn’t conform to the pattern
# [13:03] <hsivonen> well, UTF-16 and UTF-16BE really
# [13:03] <SimonSapin> ignoring utf32
# [13:03] <annevk> utf-32 is not supported in most browsers
# [13:03] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: UTF-32 is defined not to exist on the Web
# [13:03] <SimonSapin> oh, ok
# [13:03] <annevk> EBCDIC is also not ASCII-compatible, but does not exist either
# [13:04] <annevk> "exist" :)
# [13:04] <annevk> hsivonen: you know how to get that on w3cmemes?
# [13:04] <hsivonen> annevk: I don’t
# [13:04] <SimonSapin> the table in css2.1 has entries for EBCDIC, IBM1026 and GSM 03.38. whatever these are
# [13:06] <annevk> CSS 2.1 was written when we had not looked at encodings in detail I think
# [13:06] <annevk> or when the feeling was we should support all of them or something because IANA lists them in a document somewhere? I'm not entirely sure what the thinking was at the time, but we can now say it was wrong
# [13:08] <SimonSapin> annevk: if you feel like writing up the details of how css3-syntax should get unicode from bytes, that would greatly help
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# [13:16] <annevk> SimonSapin: As I'm still trying to postpone working on URL conformance I guess I can do that
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# [13:19] <annevk> SimonSapin: are you co-editor or something?
# [13:20] <SimonSapin> annevk: no. I’m implementer and recently joined the wg, but not editing anything
# [13:21] <SimonSapin> but I’m interested in seeing this progress, and maybe I can push it a little in the group
# [13:22] <annevk> kk, I'll take a look
# [13:25] <MikeSmith> anybody know what plans if any there are for the Streams API draft
# [13:26] <MikeSmith> the one from Microsoft
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# [13:28] <annevk> well they implement it
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# [13:28] <annevk> and sicking was finally convinced it's better than chunked
# [13:29] <annevk> so I put it in XHR
# [13:29] <annevk> haven't heard much since
# [13:29] <annevk> but maybe that's because it's WHATWG XHR and Microsoft does not care about that?
# [13:30] <MikeSmith> dunno
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# [13:31] <MikeSmith> but I thought part of the job of the three editors of the W3C XHR draft was to track your upstream changes and evaluate them and pull them to the W3C version as needed
# [13:32] <MikeSmith> and the Crypto WG seems to be interested in the Streams spec as well
# [13:32] <MikeSmith> and other people have asked me about it lately
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# [13:39] <annevk> SimonSapin: http://html5.org/temp/cssencoding.txt
# [13:40] <annevk> SimonSapin: I think that can replace all that CSS 2.1 has
# [13:40] <annevk> SimonSapin: note that the Encoding Standard deals with all the BOM stuff already so that does not need to be listed
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# [13:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: is it? I've heard surprisingly little about their plans
# [13:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: though hallvors came in here the other day suggesting something like that
# [13:50] <annevk> MikeSmith: and he'd maybe even contribute to whatwg/xhr
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# [13:52] <MikeSmith> annevk: I think that's the general plan for all things you're editing that have a W3C equivalent
# [13:54] <annevk> need a lot of editors then :p
# [13:54] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [13:54] <hsivonen> annevk, SimonSapin: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0615.html
# [13:55] <annevk> ah cool
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# [13:55] <annevk> I tweeted my thing cc'ing TabAtkins
# [13:55] <annevk> hopefully he'll sort it out somehow
# [13:55] <hsivonen> annevk: wait, you’t honor the charset declared by @charset even if there is a UTF-8 BOM?
# [13:56] <annevk> hsivonen: no, BOM overrides all
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# [13:56] <annevk> hsivonen: BOM is part of step 7
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# [13:56] <annevk> hsivonen: that's why the input to decode is called "fallback encoding"
# [13:56] <hsivonen> annevk: why bother with EF BB BF in step 3 then?
# [13:56] <annevk> ooh that seems like a bug
# [13:57] <annevk> shit I thought the difference there was quotes or no quotes
# [13:57] <annevk> my bad
# [13:57] <annevk> fixed
# [13:57] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
# [13:58] <matjas> annevk: “the set label” → “then set label”
# [13:58] <matjas> i think
# [13:58] <annevk> matjas: yeah fixed that when I fixed the thing hsivonen just mentioned :)
# [13:59] <annevk> hsivonen: whoa CSS 2.1 was crazy
# [13:59] <annevk> hsivonen: overriding the utf-8 BOM if the @charset that followed it said something else
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# [13:59] <hsivonen> I should check if I accidentally made scripts inherit UTF-16
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# [14:01] <hsivonen> sigh. I did.
# [14:01] <hsivonen> though so did our old script decoding code
# [14:02] * hsivonen files a bug
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# [14:09] <annevk> kind of funny that out of that big table in CSS 2.1 the only relevant line ends up being 40 63 68 61 72 73 65 74 20 22 (XX)* 22 3B
# [14:10] <annevk> to be fair, that's mostly because it catered towards utf-16/utf-32/BOM, but also EBCDIC / IBM1026 / GSM?!
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# [14:19] <hsivonen> whoa! http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0597.html French and Dutch consider 0 positive????!!!‼⁇⁈⁉‽
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# [14:20] <jgraham> Like IEEE 754 then :)
# [14:21] <annevk> hsivonen: nah, that's just Belgian usage
# [14:21] <annevk> hsivonen: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positief_getal
# [14:21] <jgraham> (as opposed to -0 ofc)
# [14:21] <annevk> hsivonen: in Dutch it's neither negative nor positive
# [14:22] <annevk> well, Dutch as practiced in the Netherlands
# [14:23] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: I’m french; just saying "positive" is often ambiguous
# [14:23] <annevk> non-negative is good though
# [14:23] <SimonSapin> when I studied math or physics (in france) we always said "strictly positive" or "positive or zero"
# [14:24] <annevk> but ideally we just define these words somewhere
# [14:24] <annevk> SimonSapin: Belgium does the same "strikt positief" :)
# [14:24] <annevk> (I just read)
# [14:24] <SimonSapin> non-negative is good, but I never heard it in french
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# [14:30] <Ms2ger> Actually, it's more complicated in Belgium
# [14:31] <MikeSmith> wondering how could it be more complicated then discussed above...
# [14:31] <hsivonen> how can it be more complicated than a yes or no question?
# [14:31] <hsivonen> Is 0 positive? Yes or no.
# [14:32] <Ms2ger> "Can be either, depending on the field the person you're talking to works in"
# [14:32] <webben> could one just substitute "more than 0" and "0 or more" ?
# [14:33] <jgraham> Yes, I think that this is the point where karlcow starts saying things like "different cultures, different perspectives"
# [14:33] <annevk> half full half empty?
# [14:33] <jgraham> To explain why not everyone can agree on a single unambiguous definition for the word "positive"
# [14:33] <MikeSmith> jgraham: :-)
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# [14:34] <MikeSmith> so please try to have these kinds of conversations while karl's around
# [14:34] <Ms2ger> Clearly, everyone should just agree on positive for >0 and non-negative for >=0
# [14:35] <SimonSapin> … and on the metric system, and utf-8, and driving on the right side of the road
# [14:35] <SimonSapin> and don’t forget Esperanto :)
# [14:36] <Ms2ger> All of that, except for Esperanto :)
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# [14:40] <jgraham> I thought even the made-up-language folks hated Esperanto
# [14:40] <jgraham> Isn't Lobjan where all the hot geek action is these days?
# [14:41] <MikeSmith> we should make a natural language based on JavaScript
# [14:41] <SimonSapin> I don’t actually know any Esperanto or other made-up language
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# [14:41] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Never bet against javascript
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# [14:42] <AryehGregor> GPHemsley, I should be able to give you SSH access if you give me your public key, but I'm not actually sure I should be doing that, so maybe better to ask Hixie.
# [14:42] <hsivonen> made-up language folks don’t seem too focused on installed base and Support Existing content
# [14:44] <annevk> AryehGregor: yeah you're allowed to do that
# [14:44] <jgraham> In the vein of "there's an xkcd for that": http://www.exocomics.com/101
# [14:44] <AryehGregor> Okay, tnen.
# [14:44] <AryehGregor> then.
# [14:44] <AryehGregor> GPHemsley, then I'll need your public key.
# [14:44] <AryehGregor> I should still have my own login info lying around.
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# [15:22] <annevk> kinda wished we had gone with "idl" in xref rather than "webidl"
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# [15:28] <annevk> so URL terminology
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# [15:28] <annevk> URL is a string
# [15:28] <annevk> there's relative and absolute URLs (also both strings)
# [15:28] <annevk> parsed URL is the object you get from parsing a URL
# [15:29] <annevk> conformance of relative URLs hinges upon the base URL in play
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# [15:29] <annevk> (base URL needs to have an hierarchical scheme)
# [15:30] <annevk> absolute URL consists of "scheme", "data", "fragment"; for hierarchical absolute URLs "data" is "domain", "port", "path", "query"
# [15:30] <annevk> for others it depends
# [15:32] <annevk> relative URLs are either relative authority relative URLs (start with //), query relative URLs (start with ?), fragment relative URLs (start with #), or path relative URLs (anything else)
# [15:33] <annevk> "http:path" weirdness is non-conforming
# [15:33] <annevk> because it depends on the base URL whether it's relative or absolute
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# [15:35] <annevk> and I'm not a 100% sure about URLUtils.valid anymore as it does not say much about whether the input was conforming, just whether parsing did not result in failure
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# [15:47] <scott_gonzalez> Shouldn't dialog.showModal() set focus to the dialog element itself if there is no autofocus element? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/commands.html#dom-dialog-showmodal
# [15:47] <scott_gonzalez> Or is step 9 saying that the dialog shouldn't even open in that case?
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# [15:59] <GPHemsley> AryehGregor: Where do you want me to send/put it?
# [16:00] <annevk> scott_gonzalez: it's saying focus is not changed in that case
# [16:00] <annevk> scott_gonzalez: it's opened the moment the open attribute is added
# [16:01] <scott_gonzalez> annevk: Wouldn't a modal dialog without focus be a problem?
# [16:02] <annevk> scott_gonzalez: why?
# [16:02] <scott_gonzalez> Because you can't interact with anything other than the dialog, but focus is outside of the dialog.
# [16:02] <annevk> (it does seem like there should be some integration of the inertness concept and focusing)
# [16:02] <scott_gonzalez> How would a keyboard user accomplish anything in that case?
# [16:03] <scott_gonzalez> And how would screen readers know to announce the dialog if it doesn't have focus?
# [16:03] <annevk> well the other things are marked inert so cannot be interacted with either
# [16:03] <scott_gonzalez> Should I bring this to WAI PF?
# [16:03] <annevk> presumably that means the focus is on the Window
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# [16:03] <annevk> scott_gonzalez: I'd raise it on the WHATWG list
# [16:03] <scott_gonzalez> ok
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# [16:05] <Stevef> scott_gonzalez: I would suggest focus needs to move to the dialog itself
# [16:05] <scott_gonzalez> Stevef: That is my thought as well, and what we do in jQuery UI.
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# [16:08] <annevk> is <dialog> defined as focusable element though?
# [16:10] <scott_gonzalez> I'm not sure, but presumably it should be if there are no requirements for a focusable close button.
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# [16:10] <scott_gonzalez> I would think that `control` should fallback to the first tab focusable element if no element with autofocus exists.
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# [16:13] <annevk> scott_gonzalez: anyway, email the list explaining the potential problems and I'm sure Hixie will address it
# [16:13] <annevk> bbl
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# [16:20] <MikeSmith> "relative authority relative URLs" don't roll off the tongue so well
# [16:21] <jgraham> heh
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# [16:24] <annevk> MikeSmith: I was just thinking about that some more, I think they're actually scheme-relative URLs
# [16:24] <annevk> authority-relative would be path/fragment/query combined, but I don't think we need a name for that
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# [16:25] <annevk> MikeSmith: oh I see, the double usage of "relative", heh
# [16:27] <MikeSmith> yeah that part
# [16:27] <MikeSmith> I meant
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# [16:27] <MikeSmith> annevk: anyway, fwiw, all you outlined above earlier sounds sane to me
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# [16:28] <annevk> the thing the IETF is not going to like is that this stuff is scheme-dependent
# [16:28] <MikeSmith> right
# [16:28] <annevk> but at least for the hierarchical stuff that's how it's implemented
# [16:28] <MikeSmith> but that is a face
# [16:28] <MikeSmith> *fact
# [16:28] <MikeSmith> yeah, what you said
# [16:28] <MikeSmith> if they don't like reality there's not much we can do about that
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# [16:29] <MikeSmith> and I don't really think it's so widespread a dislike at the IETF
# [16:29] <MikeSmith> I think it's a very vocal minority
# [16:29] <MikeSmith> or a kind of "Moral Majority"
# [16:30] <MikeSmith> I really wonder what causes people to turn from being pragmatic into becoming techno-reactionaries
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# [16:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: you want as "Michael™ Smith" in the acknowledgments or without the ™?
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# [16:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: and apologies for adding you so late, and even more apologies to abarth!
# [16:35] <MikeSmith> annevk: I didn't do much
# [16:35] <MikeSmith> but if you put me, with the tm in some form is great
# [16:35] <GPHemsley> AryehGregor_: Where do you want me to send/put it?
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# [17:05] <[tm]> wow http://labs.ft.com/2012/06/text-re-encoding-for-optimising-storage-capacity-in-the-browser/
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# [17:11] <hsivonen> [tm]: so sad
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# [17:17] <GPHemsley> Hixie: I can't find any external contenteditable standard, and it seems to still be in HTML.
# [17:18] <annevk> GPHemsley: that wiki page is talking about http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/editing/raw-file/tip/editing.html
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# [17:27] <GPHemsley> annevk: Ah, thanks.
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# [17:51] <annevk> GPHemsley: btw, were you planning on maintaining mimesniff?
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# [17:52] <annevk> GPHemsley: if you need help in retrofitting what's there now as input for Anolis, let me know
# [17:53] <GPHemsley> annevk: I hadn't thought about it, but I could give it a shot...
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# [17:54] <GPHemsley> annevk: If you're referring to the error I mentioned a while back, it was just the first one I grabbed.
# [17:54] <GPHemsley> annevk: But if you're looking to lighten your load
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# [17:57] <annevk> GPHemsley: heh, I'm not doing anything with it at the moment and I don't think abarth is either
# [17:57] <GPHemsley> yeah, was just gonna ask
# [17:58] <GPHemsley> (I just assumed it was you, until I looked)
# [17:58] <annevk> GPHemsley: not sure much needs to be done other than font sniffing, but there's a few other MIME related matters that could use looking at
# [17:58] <GPHemsley> Did we ever get an answer as to where the source was?
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# [18:01] <annevk> I suspect either abarth has it or lost it
# [18:01] <annevk> judging by https://github.com/abarth/websec/tree/master/drafts it was never in git
# [18:01] <jgraham> Um, why don't the FT people just use some proper form of compression on the data they want to store?
# [18:03] <[tm]> annevk: GPHemsley : i think before maybe abarth wasusin some
# [18:03] <[tm]> some xml thing
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# [18:04] <[tm]> so that he could generate the ietf version
# [18:05] <[tm]> in whatever asshat format that requires
# [18:06] <annevk> GPHemsley: but it hardly has any cross-references so rewriting it back to normal is trivial
# [18:06] <GPHemsley> annevk: Well, I don't have any experience using anolis, so I'd need guidance either way ;)
# [18:07] <annevk> GPHemsley: I can make the Overview.src.html, was planning on doing that anyway
# [18:07] <GPHemsley> alrighty
# [18:08] <annevk> but yeah, with regards to MIME; MIME type parsing needs to be defined at some point
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# [18:08] <annevk> string -> parsing -> MIME object -> serialize (with options such as without parameters, lowercase)
# [18:09] <annevk> and then everything in the platform that takes a MIME type needs to hook into that somehow
# [18:09] <annevk> (or not)
# [18:09] <annevk> and no longer tying MIME to IANA would also be nice
# [18:13] <GPHemsley> annevk: You'd still want to have a registry though, no?
# [18:14] <annevk> GPHemsley: yeah, wiki thing
# [18:14] <GPHemsley> hmm
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# [18:19] <[tm]> the wiki thing in practice is not proving to be so brilliant
# [18:21] <[tm]> though it's still better than the byzantine iana etc. stuff
# [18:21] <GPHemsley> [tm]: What are the problems?
# [18:22] <[tm]> GPHemsley: with the iana way?
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# [18:22] <GPHemsley> [tm]: No, with the wiki way
# [18:22] <[tm]> ah
# [18:23] <[tm]> there's an open bug about that
# [18:23] <[tm]> remind me later if you care enough
# [18:23] <[tm]> away from my pc now
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# [18:24] <GPHemsley> k
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# [18:25] <[tm]> the rel registry at micriformats.org is particularly FUBAR by design
# [18:25] <GPHemsley> http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values
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# [18:26] <[tm]> was a bad idea to hitch sny wagon to that mess
# [18:27] <GPHemsley> can it be unhitched?
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# [18:27] <[tm]> i sure hope so
# [18:28] <[tm]> if common sense can eventually prevail
# [18:28] <GPHemsley> You know what would be cool? If using a +modifier on a mailing list e-mail address automatically added it in brackets to the subject
# [18:28] <GPHemsley> e.g. whatwg+mimesniff@whatwg.org => [mimesniff] sadfasdfj
# [18:29] <GPHemsley> and likewise, subscribing to such e-mail addresses would only give you the messages prefixed as such
# [18:29] <GPHemsley> then, those who want everything can subscribe to whatwg@whatwg.org
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# [18:30] <GPHemsley> and those who don't can subscribe only to the modifiers they want
# [18:30] <GPHemsley> though I imagine someone will have to talk to the Mailman developers about that
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# [19:17] <GPHemsley> ugh, the structure of an MP3 is annoyingly variable
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# [19:38] <GPHemsley> Where does the code that powers the website live? And who's in charge of that?
# [19:40] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i like the one where the guy says application/xhtml+xml and application/xml are in any way different
# [19:41] <Hixie> MikeSmith: fwiw i'm planning on ignoring those, sometime next year i'll figure out a more practical way of documenting Content-Type values
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# [19:41] <Hixie> annevk: i think that table was by dbaron, but i could be wrong
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# [19:45] <Hixie> GPHemsley: i encourage you not to write text that is less accurate than possible in the interests of political correctness
# [19:46] <Hixie> GPHemsley: e.g. webdatabase is dead, it's not "not being actively maintained"
# [19:46] <Hixie> GPHemsley: politically correct phraseaology tends to mislead people who aren't familiar with the politics
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# [19:53] <GPHemsley> Hixie: IMO, saying it is dead is the language that is less accurate than possible. A spec cannot be "dead" so long as the document is still present and available.
# [19:53] <Hixie> that's like saying a person can't be dead while the corpse isn't ceremated :-)
# [19:53] <GPHemsley> Not really, because a spec can be resurrected at a future date (just like with HTML)
# [19:54] <Hixie> HTML never died
# [19:54] <Hixie> but would "abandoned" be better?
# [19:54] <GPHemsley> I suppose, as long as you keep the date, as well.
# [19:55] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: If it's editorial, feel free to make the edit yourself, and ping me about it. Just be sure to honor the indentation/line-breaking style of the spec you're editting. ^_^
# [19:55] <Hixie> i changed the date to "late 2010" since it's hard to pin down exactly when it was last maintained (it was certainly before the last date on the spec)
# [19:55] <Hixie> (since i stopped working on it months before people asked for the warning to be added on the w3c copy)
# [19:55] <GPHemsley> Very well
# [19:55] <Hixie> (i even stopped working on it months before i deleted it out of the whatwg copy)
# [19:56] <Hixie> (which itself was long before the warning was added)
# [19:56] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: see http://www.w3.org/mid/5083ED64.1090402@kozea.fr
# [19:58] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Are the W3C versions of workers, sockets, storage, and server-side events identical to the language in the WHATWG HTML spec?
# [19:58] <Hixie> the headers are definitely different
# [19:59] <GPHemsley> content-wise
# [19:59] <GPHemsley> normatively
# [19:59] <Hixie> dunno how much the bodies differ, think the gorup froze the non-dev versions for TR/ publication
# [19:59] <Hixie> i don't pay much attention
# [20:00] <GPHemsley> well, these links are to the dev versions
# [20:00] <Hixie> those should be more or less identical, at least in ways that matter
# [20:01] <Hixie> certainly much more so than the w3c html5 spec
# [20:01] <GPHemsley> I'm just wondering if the relationship between HTML5 and HTML is significantly different from the rest to warrant two different sections
# [20:01] <Hixie> ah
# [20:01] <GPHemsley> Because HTML5 is unambiguously a fork; perhaps the others strictly aren't.
# [20:01] <Hixie> i wouldn't worry about it
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# [20:04] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: I'm fine with changing it to "CSS in", but the "dot" is intentionally ambiguous, and should be defined wherever it is used. (I might not be doing this in Images 3 right now.)
# [20:04] <TabAtkins> In MQ, it's device pixels. In Images, it's image pixels.
# [20:05] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Also, if you could double-check the names for the former sections of the spun-off specs, that'd be great. I don't know where to find those, but I think we should make sure they're correct for anyone looking for them by their old names.
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# [20:05] <GPHemsley> Hixie: In many cases, I had to guess, because I didn't know where to look to find that info.
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# [20:08] <Hixie> GPHemsley: the names changed a lot over time
# [20:08] <Hixie> GPHemsley: which names should we list?
# [20:09] <GPHemsley> the most recent one before it was spun off
# [20:09] <GPHemsley> I think
# [20:09] <Hixie> that should almost always be the same as the new spec's name
# [20:09] <GPHemsley> Oh, hmm
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# [20:10] <Hixie> actually /tr/html5 might actually be useful for this purpose :-)
# [20:10] <GPHemsley> ah! :)
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# [20:11] <Hixie> yeah if you go back far enough you should be able to use those to find section names
# [20:11] <Hixie> i expect in many cases it'll be difficult to pick one section name, though
# [20:13] <GPHemsley> alright, I'll take a look
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# [20:15] <scott_gonzalez> Hixie: When I said that dialog's control should fall back to the first tab focusable element, I meant within the dialog, which would exclude the body.
# [20:15] <Hixie> doesn't make any difference, does it?
# [20:15] <scott_gonzalez> Well, it does in terms of what has focus to get exposed to AT.
# [20:16] <scott_gonzalez> You said "This is no different than when the page first loads. If nothing has
# [20:16] <scott_gonzalez> autofocus="", or if no script calls .focus(), then nothing in the page has
# [20:16] <scott_gonzalez> focus."
# [20:16] <scott_gonzalez> But the body gets focus in that case.
# [20:16] <Hixie> not really
# [20:16] <Hixie> the body having focus is one of those weird hacks that's not entirely true but we mostly pretend
# [20:16] <Hixie> anyway, i would expect ATs to implement <dialog> natively and report that a dialog was opened, and act accordingly
# [20:17] <tantek> [t m] why do you say "wiki thing in practice is not proving to be so brilliant" and "particularly FUBAR by design" ? do you have specific problems or suggested improvements?
# [20:17] <tantek> [tm]
# [20:17] <scott_gonzalez> So I guess I should ask browser vendors if they will expose the information when the dialog doesn't have focus?
# [20:18] <Hixie> scott_gonzalez: what information?
# [20:18] <scott_gonzalez> That the dialog has opened.
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# [20:18] <scott_gonzalez> If you do this in JS and use ARIA, I'm fairly certain nothing is announced unless the dialog gets focus.
# [20:19] <Hixie> it'd be pretty inaccessible if you didn't report it
# [20:19] <Hixie> ARIA has nothing to do with this
# [20:19] <scott_gonzalez> I realize ARIA isn't involved here.
# [20:19] <scott_gonzalez> But it's the only thing I can reference in terms of what browsers are exposing right now.
# [20:20] <scott_gonzalez> For example, you can't have an alert() that doesn't get focus.
# [20:20] <tantek> for anything microformats related, e.g. the rel-registry http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values, feel free to also /join #microformats and ask questions / provide feedback there
# [20:20] <tantek> we'll continue to make improvements as people point out specific problems or make specific suggestions. thanks!
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# [20:21] <Hixie> scott_gonzalez: i think there are multiple things here that you are conflating but that are separate.
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# [20:21] <Hixie> scott_gonzalez: 1. reporting to the user that there is a (modal) dialog. 2. the keyboard focus. 3. the AT focus.
# [20:22] <Hixie> scott_gonzalez: on Mac, if a dialog comes up, the app has keyboard focus, but no control in the dialog need have focus. a control will have AT focus, however.
# [20:23] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Wrt the republications, why do you feel that it should be emphasized that the work is originally done in the WHATWG? (The entire page is already referring specifically to the WHATWG standard.)
# [20:24] <Hixie> GPHemsley: because people have accused me of stealing from the w3c html spec and that pisses me off
# [20:24] <GPHemsley> ah, ok :)
# [20:24] <Hixie> :-)
# [20:28] <scott_gonzalez> Hixie: I see what you're saying. So it's impossible to fully emulate the focus with JavaScript, correct?
# [20:29] <scott_gonzalez> Because document.activeElement would continue to be the element that had focus prior to the dialog being shown?
# [20:29] <scott_gonzalez> At least that's the behavior I'm seeing with alert() in Chrome, even while the OK button has focus inside the dialog.
# [20:29] <Hixie> scott_gonzalez: not sure what you mean by "emulate the focus", but when a dialog comes up, if the previously focused element is now inert, it loses focus.
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# [20:31] <scott_gonzalez> If I focus on an element, then run alert() in the console, document.activeElement continues to be the previously focused element.
# [20:31] <scott_gonzalez> But the whole page is inert, correct?
# [20:32] <Hixie> no
# [20:32] <Hixie> alert() is a different OS-level window, it doesn't affect the in-page focus of the previous page
# [20:32] <Hixie> "inert" is a technical term that is used to implement <dialog>
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# [20:40] <scott_gonzalez> I guess I'll just have to wait for an implementation to be available.
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# [20:49] <Hixie> annevk: dude, i'm so not making every non-utf8 doc non-conforming. :-/ https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15332
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# [20:50] <annevk> GPHemsley: for the registrations Hixie had this idea to have a wiki page and move the ones that are proven into the main specification (with reference to another specification if present or otherwise inline)
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# [20:51] <GPHemsley> Interesting...
# [20:51] <annevk> GPHemsley: either something like that or we'd need someone to make a web service of sorts, but the annoying thing with that is that you need to solve a lot of the same problems with respect to identity and such
# [20:51] <GPHemsley> annevk: Identity of what? The person submitting?
# [20:52] <annevk> GPHemsley: yeah, the nice thing about the wiki is that you already have an account and such
# [20:52] <annevk> nice thing about a web service would be that the validator logic would become a bit simpler, because wiki scraping sucks
# [20:53] <annevk> and the wiki already has history and such too
# [20:53] <GPHemsley> why does identity matter? should only the attachment to a particular spec matter?
# [20:53] <GPHemsley> s/should/shouldn't/
# [20:54] <Hixie> i expect to do this registry stuff sometime next year
# [20:54] <annevk> GPHemsley: you need some kind of protection against spammers
# [20:54] <GPHemsley> annevk: Random spammers or malicious registration spammers?
# [20:55] <annevk> GPHemsley: is there a difference?
# [20:55] <Hixie> need to think about it some more, but i'm thinking there's conforming entries with spec text, non-conforming entries that describe actual use, experimental entries that people want to use, and rejected entries that were experimental and didn't work out
# [20:55] <annevk> Hixie: I need something for URLs too
# [20:55] <GPHemsley> annevk: Well, the former is nonsensical and the latter is... not
# [20:55] <Hixie> annevk: oh there's lots of registries here
# [20:56] <Hixie> mime, rel, meta name are the three big ones i have to deal with
# [20:56] <Hixie> but there are many others
# [20:56] <Hixie> meta name has been interesting, there are SO MANY out there
# [20:57] <Hixie> not sure what we should do with that yet
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# [20:57] <annevk> it's pretty successful too
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# [20:59] <annevk> https://twitter.com/masinter/status/260438941751201792 heh
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# [21:01] <Hixie> annevk: it certainly documents more values than iana would
# [21:01] <annevk> URL schemes is pretty interesting, as it has an effect on parsing
# [21:01] <Hixie> annevk: but it has failed at making authors avoid dumb values
# [21:02] <Hixie> anyway, gotta go to work, bbiab
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# [21:04] <annevk> I love http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2012Oct/0011.html
# [21:04] <annevk> The way to achieve KISS is by writing specs like the way Hixie wrote HTML, by spelling out every single thing that needs to be done
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# [21:05] <annevk> Because only then do you realize a) HTML is actually super complex and b) you could probably design something simpler that does just as well
# [21:05] <annevk> The way to achieve KISS is not by writing simpler specs, it's by coming up with simpler constructs, less variance, etc.
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# [21:08] <GPHemsley> Argh, HTML archaelogy is hard.
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# [21:08] <annevk> GPHemsley: following @mattur on twitter yet?
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# [21:09] <GPHemsley> annevk: No, why?
# [21:09] <divya> he is the doyen of html archealogy
# [21:10] <annevk> The problem with some members of the TAG, like Noah, is that they don't like complex specs for some reason, but we're only describing what was already out there. We're not even introducing new complexity in many cases. Far more often reducing it (e.g. the Encoding Standard makes many simplifications over what we have now).
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# [21:11] <GPHemsley> annevk, divya: Well, it's made more difficult by the fact that github is treating the (W3C-converted?) source as a binary file, even though it's all text.
# [21:11] <annevk> Most of the HTML standard is about reducing complexity too. First you had 4+ different complex HTML parser implementations. Now you have 4+ equivalent complex HTML parser implementations (that all got slightly saner too).
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# [21:11] <annevk> GPHemsley: use http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker ?
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# [21:12] <GPHemsley> I need access to the contents of the file itself at a given revision
# [21:12] <GPHemsley> I'm trying to track down when things changed
# [21:12] <GPHemsley> in 2009
# [21:12] <GPHemsley> ;)
# [21:13] <GPHemsley> it's alright, I'm almost there
# [21:13] <annevk> GPHemsley: there's a secret parameter named limit
# [21:13] <annevk> GPHemsley: set it -1 and enjoy
# [21:13] <GPHemsley> can't wait to find out what the commit message is, because it's clearly not going to be especially descriptive
# [21:13] <GPHemsley> annevk: The problem is, I don't know what I'm looking for
# [21:13] <GPHemsley> beyond the contents of the file
# [21:14] <GPHemsley> I've narrowed it down to a few days in June 2009
# [21:14] <AryehGregor_> GPHemsley, just give it to me on IRC, or pastebin or something. Or e-mail, which would probably be best because then I'll see it.
# [21:14] * AryehGregor_ is now known as AryehGregor
# [21:14] <GPHemsley> AryehGregor: .name?
# [21:14] <AryehGregor> Oh, you're around right now. So just give it to me on IRC.
# [21:14] <AryehGregor> ?
# [21:15] <AryehGregor> ayg@aryeh.name will work.
# [21:15] <AryehGregor> May as well just tell me on IRC, though, once we're here.
# [21:15] <GPHemsley> AryehGregor: I already had the draft set up, so I sent it via e-mail. :)
# [21:17] <AryehGregor> GPHemsley, try logging in. whatwikiuser@whatwg.org.
# [21:17] <AryehGregor> (yes, it's a shared login and I just added you to authorized_keys)
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# [21:18] <GPHemsley> works, thanks
# [21:18] * GPHemsley is suddenly doing a hundred things at once
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# [21:30] <GPHemsley> annevk: I don't suppose there's a way to view the HTML page as it was at a particular revision?
# [21:30] <GPHemsley> (the compiled version)
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# [21:45] <annevk> GPHemsley: no
# [21:45] <annevk> GPHemsley: I have thought about doing it, but a) the subresources make that complex and b) it would take up a lot of space (but that's not necessarily a problem)
# [21:46] <annevk> GPHemsley: also, usually you can get pretty far by using the W3C snapshots
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# [21:51] <tantek> Hixie - for a while I considered setting up documentation of existing meta name values on the microformats wiki similar to rel values, but to date it's been rejected due to meta name being an encouragement of the use of invisible metadata which is seen as bad (for data quality etc.) in general.
# [21:51] <tantek> what's the utility of "validating" the use of meta names which are likely going to be used to pollute the web anyway?
# [21:53] <tantek> that being said, it does seem like every new semi-popular social content hosting site wants to make up their own meta names (or pseudo-rdfa-like properties, FB OGP ahem) for purposes of "stuff about the page to include when someone posts a link to the page"
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# [21:53] <TabAtkins> hsivonen, annevk: Syntax spec updated to use Anne's list of steps and point to the Encoding Standard.
# [21:53] <tantek> when multiple vendors independently innovate something like that, usually it's a sign that there's a need for a standard to reduce the burden on publishers.
# [21:55] <tantek> so because of that, we may end up documenting research on existing meta name/property usage anyway :/
# [21:55] <tantek> not sure it will be useful as a "registry"
# [21:55] <tantek> but hey, that's how existing-rel-values started (documenting a few things)
# [21:56] <tantek> and then eventually it turned into the most comprehensive documentation of rel values on the web
# [21:57] <tantek> which I think is due more to it being on a wiki page than having anything to do with microformats in particular, although the culture of the microformats community is a very research/documentation-centric culture so that probably had something to do with it.
# [21:57] <tantek> in contrast to a "just email your proposal to a mailing list and the 'experts' will consider it and get back to you eventually" type "culture"
# [21:58] <annevk> TabAtkins: sweet, will review later!
# [21:58] <annevk> MikeSmith: can we get a MIME component under the WHATWG product?
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# [22:10] <annevk> I updated http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/ to be generated from a source file
# [22:10] <annevk> It can use some work still
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# [22:13] <annevk> tantek: that's in part why I moved the specs to GitHub, so people can hack on the text
# [22:13] <annevk> tantek: two pull requests to date, but I'm hoping it'll go better long term
# [22:14] <tantek> annevk - github does lower the barrier to entry to contributing to specs
# [22:14] <tantek> I tried (unsuccessfully) to get the CSSWG to "skip" using HG/mercurial and just wait with CVS a bit longer until it was obvious everyone was going to switch eventually to git/github
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# [22:15] <tantek> to avoid one unnecessary infrastructure transition
# [22:16] <annevk> I should have done that in retrospect, but this works
# [22:16] <annevk> and porting history was easier starting with hg
# [22:16] <tantek> oh ok, that's good then
# [22:18] <annevk> SimonSapin: TabAtkins just updated css3-syntax ;)
# [22:19] <SimonSapin> annevk: yeah, I just saw that. Thanks for your input ;)
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# [22:35] <zcorpan> krijn: log page isn't updating properly
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# [22:46] <krijn> zcorpan: sorry, fixed
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# [22:49] <zcorpan> someone should make a meme of glenn adams' replies to hsivonen on www-style
# [22:56] <jgraham> Hixie: To an excellent approximation, all documents are already invalid, so making UTF8 required for conformance hardly seems like it would make much difference
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# [22:58] <jgraham> othermaciej: I like your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter
# [22:58] <othermaciej> jgraham: which ideas?
# [22:58] <jgraham> Or, more specifically, would like to attend your "how to use mailing lists more productivly" session at TPAC
# [22:59] <jgraham> (I assume you meant it as a plenary day topic rather than a HTMLWG topic?)
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# [23:02] <othermaciej> I meant it as an HTML WG topic for HTML WG's use of lists specifically, but it sounds like it could also be a good plenary day topic
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# [23:03] <jgraham> Well I guess I am happy with either
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# [23:04] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: "If label is null, set label to the value of charset attribute on the <link> element that caused the style sheet to be included, if any." this could be xml-stylesheet as well (unless i dropped support for charset there? don't recall)
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# [23:05] <zcorpan> anyway, should probably be more generic or just provide a hook for the html spec to use or so
# [23:06] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Tell annevk, I just reused his text with light rephrasing. ^_^
# [23:06] <annevk> TabAtkins: hey, you are responsible now ;)
# [23:07] <TabAtkins> I explicitly disclaim any responsibility for encoding.
# [23:07] <zcorpan> does step 6 match implementations?
# [23:07] <GPHemsley> ALERT: I'm going to be starting the wiki upgrade momentarily. If there are any objections, raise them now. If not, expect the wiki to be a little weird for a while.
# [23:08] <zcorpan> i would have expected that a bogus encoding decl falls back to inheriting the encoding instead of falling back to utf-8
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# [23:08] <zcorpan> or look for the next place that declares a label to see if that's a valid label
# [23:08] <annevk> zcorpan: you mean the "get an encoding from label" thing happens between every step?
# [23:08] <GPHemsley> Hixie, annevk, AryehGregor: Any objections?
# [23:09] <zcorpan> annevk: something like that yeah
# [23:09] <annevk> GPHemsley: did you backup?
# [23:09] <GPHemsley> yup
# [23:09] <annevk> GPHemsley: go ahead
# [23:10] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah so if that's the case I guess we need to make things a bit easier
# [23:10] <annevk> zcorpan: not entirely sure how
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# [23:10] <zcorpan> easier in what way?
# [23:10] <annevk> zcorpan: maybe introduce "known label" as a concept
# [23:11] <annevk> if label is null, set label to the value of the charset attribute on ..., if that is a known label"
# [23:12] <zcorpan> oh easier to spec
# [23:12] * tantek scrolls up, reading about UTF-8 and validity
# [23:12] <zcorpan> i don't see why that's easier than the current "get an encoding", offhand
# [23:13] <annevk> try to rephrase that using get an encoding
# [23:13] <tantek> othermaciej - if you did that as a plenary day topic, I would be very tempted to show up and take notes in order to capture them on the wiki ;)
# [23:13] <annevk> you only want to set label if get an encoding does not return failure basically
# [23:13] <annevk> at least, it seems to be that's what you're saying, this is all untested thus far
# [23:14] <tantek> hmm, I think I would be ok with making UTF-8 required for HTML5 documents.
# [23:14] <tantek> is that the basic idea jgraham?
# [23:14] <annevk> GPHemsley: any chance we can configure the wiki to not have the redundant /wiki/ thing and redirect the old stuff?
# [23:15] <TabAtkins> That would effectively make <meta charset=utf-8> a required part of every document, since documents default to something else.
# [23:15] <GPHemsley> annevk: One thing at a time :)
# [23:15] <annevk> GPHemsley: not sure if it's worth it btw
# [23:15] <zcorpan> annevk: i'd just abort the algorithm once an encoding is found (or jump to the last step)
# [23:15] <annevk> TabAtkins: yeah, that or a BOM or a content-type
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# [23:16] <tantek> annevk - we're actually thinking of making that same change (dropping the need for /wiki/ ) at microformats.org, since the wiki is where the newest content has all ended up, and the other semi-static areas (all in WordPress) are not as interesting.
# [23:16] <annevk> zcorpan: still seems like that would be pretty unwieldy
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# [23:17] <tantek> new community sites are wiki-based but without the /wiki/ , e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/
# [23:17] <tantek> (as used by #indiewebcamp )
# [23:17] <annevk> well we already have wiki.whatwg.org
# [23:17] <annevk> and then another /wiki/ to boot
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# [23:18] <TabAtkins> tantek: I didn't even realize there was a non-wiki portion of Microformats.org
# [23:18] <tantek> Exactly my point Tabatkins
# [23:19] <tantek> in 2005, we used the building blocks for independent community as we best understood them.
# [23:19] <tantek> over time we've learned what works and what doesn't, what becomes a good source of the latest "truth" and what becomes a "support forum" ;)
# [23:20] <annevk> oh god
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# [23:23] <zcorpan> annevk: data:text/html;charset=windows-1251,<!DOCTYPE%20html>%0A<link%20rel%3Dstylesheet%20charset%3D"bogus"%20href%3D"data%3Atext%2Fcss%3Bcharset%3Dbogus%2C%40charset%20%26quot%3Bbogus%26quot%3B%3B%20body%3A%3Abefore%20%7B%20content%3A'%C3%A9'%20%7D">x%20
# [23:23] <annevk> GPHemsley: well now we know you're maintaining we're gonna spam you of course :-)
# [23:23] <GPHemsley> :)
# [23:23] <zcorpan> starting point; haven't figured out what actually happens
# [23:23] <zcorpan> now i need sleep
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# [23:25] <tantek> GPHemsely - thanks for maintaining the wiki - greatly appreciated.
# [23:25] <tantek> GPHemsley even :)
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# [23:26] <GPHemsley> don't thank me yet :P
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# [23:31] <zcorpan> what's up with the whatwg wiki?
# [23:32] <annevk> GPHemsley is updating it
# [23:33] <GPHemsley> OK, the wiki is back up, but I have to figure out why the short URLs are broken
# [23:33] <Hixie> jgraham: that seems a bit harsh
# [23:33] <Hixie> GPHemsley: you know abotu the blame.r* files right?
# [23:33] <zcorpan> ah
# [23:34] <GPHemsley> Hixie: No, where are they?
# [23:34] * Quits: danzik17 (~danzik17@164.55.254.106) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
# [23:34] <zcorpan> Hixie: what bad effects would a utf-8 requirement cause?
# [23:35] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/blame.r* where the values of blame.r* are: (please hold, your call is important to us)
# [23:36] * Quits: danzik171 (~danzik17@164.55.254.106) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
# [23:36] <annevk> tantek: can't find the license of the microformats wiki
# [23:36] <Hixie> blame.r0005 blame.r0050 blame.r0500 blame.r0954 blame.r1000 blame.r1250 blame.r1500 blame.r1838 blame.r1863 blame.r1936 blame.r1976 blame.r1980 blame.r2000 blame.r2200 blame.r2216 blame.r2500 blame.r2800 blame.r2905 blame.r2947 blame.r3000 blame.r3075 blame.r3250 blame.r3500 blame.r4000 blame.r4667 blame.r5000 blame.r5287 blame.r5372 blame.r5600 blame.r6000 blame.r6400 blame.r6666 blame.r7000 blame.r7393
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# [23:36] <tantek> annevk - CC)
# [23:36] <tantek> er
# [23:36] <tantek> CC0
# [23:36] <tantek> it's on every edit that's done
# [23:36] <zcorpan> maybe there would be more stuff being mislabeled as utf-8 when it's not in fact utf-8
# [23:36] <tantek> since the end of 2007
# [23:37] * Joins: Stevef__ (~chatzilla@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
# [23:37] <annevk> tantek: but it's not stated anywhere visibly
# [23:37] <tantek> every edit since then was a required public domain contribution per Creative Commons, forward compatible with CC0
# [23:37] <Hixie> zcorpan: just seems like make-work for people who are happily using win1252 or whatever.
# [23:37] <tantek> it is on the Copyright page
# [23:37] <Hixie> zcorpan: not saying that utf-8 shouldn't be _strongly_ recommended, but still, non-utf-8 still works
# [23:38] <annevk> tantek: link? cannot find that
# [23:38] <zcorpan> Hixie: only if you don't mind being limited to ascii for new features where we require utf-8
# [23:38] <Hixie> zcorpan: like what?
# [23:38] <zcorpan> like workers
# [23:39] <Hixie> can't put html in workers
# [23:39] <tantek> annevk: LMGTFY microformats copyright http://microformats.org/wiki/Microformats_Wiki:Copyrights
# [23:39] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Ah, very nice, thanks!
# [23:39] <tantek> :)
# [23:39] <zcorpan> Hixie: so? you can put text in a worker and send text from an html page to a worker
# [23:40] <annevk> tantek: I guess Google would have been a better choice than using the microformats wiki search
# [23:40] <TabAtkins> "
# [23:40] <TabAtkins> "can't put html in workers" yet.
# [23:40] <tantek> Google > MediaWiki search feature
# [23:40] <tantek> I don't search wikipedia
# [23:40] <tantek> I search Google for wikipedia term-that-i'm-looking-for
# [23:40] <GPHemsley> Yay! Wiki is back
# [23:40] <tantek> Yay!
# [23:41] <Hixie> zcorpan: by that point it's UTF-16, so that seems like a non-issue
# [23:41] * Quits: michaeln (michaeln@nat/google/x-ymsyesfwljfubhtp) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [23:41] <GPHemsley> If anybody finds any problems, let me know.
# [23:42] <zcorpan> Hixie: not when the author writes the worker and the html page in a text editor and saves them both as win1252
# [23:42] <tantek> still, annevk, it's a good point, and more discoverability helps.
# [23:42] * tantek goes to create some redirects
# [23:43] <annevk> GPHemsley: MIT License image seems broken
# [23:43] <GPHemsley> annevk: Link?
# [23:43] <tantek> ok, wiki search for copyright should work again
# [23:43] <tantek> er, should work *now*
# [23:43] <Hixie> zcorpan: well we already require that workers be utf-8, so if they're already ignoring that, surely they'll ignore our requirement for HTML too
# [23:43] <annevk> GPHemsley: oh, it doesn't link anywhere
# [23:43] <GPHemsley> annevk: BTW, MediaWiki docs seems to discourage having the wiki at the top level
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# [23:44] <annevk> GPHemsley: footer could use some cleanup in general
# [23:44] <annevk> GPHemsley: mkay, guess we can keep it this way, but it's rather ugly
# [23:45] <annevk> Hixie: the idea is just to align the requirement so the message becomes a lot simpler
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# [23:45] <zcorpan> Hixie: that's not what i'm trying to say. :-) i mean Joe will be happy with win1252 until he tries to use workers, where non-ascii don't work for him. either he'll switch everything to utf-8 or just use ascii for the worker.
# [23:46] <Hixie> zcorpan: i'm all in favour of us pushing Joe to UTF-8 everywhere. But I think saying you just can't use Win1252 or whatever, when it's working fine, is way more drastic than necessary.
# [23:46] <Hixie> the validator could give a big-ass warning
# [23:46] <zcorpan> ok
# [23:47] <annevk> it's fine until you put a <form> in your page
# [23:47] <annevk> or a link with a query string to another server
# [23:47] <annevk> it's not really fine
# [23:47] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.98.194) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
# [23:47] * zcorpan *poof*
# [23:48] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@81-231-170-159-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
# [23:48] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@81-231-170-159-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
# [23:48] <Hixie> that was an unconvincing disappearance :-P
# [23:49] <Hixie> annevk: what's wrong with having a form in the page?
# [23:49] <annevk> Hixie: user entering non-windows-1252 code points
# [23:50] <annevk> Hixie: could be even worse if the forms contents are submitted through XHR to the server (will use utf-8)
# [23:50] <annevk> there's so many encoding traps
# [23:51] <Hixie> those codepoints just get collapsed into other text, right?
# [23:52] <annevk> for <form> submission the server will get some HTML entity looking like things which it cannot distinguish from actually entered HTML entities
# [23:52] <annevk> for <form> submission through XHR the server will get utf-8 which it might not know how to deal with considering it is outputting windows-1252
# [23:52] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@81-231-170-159-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
# [23:53] <Hixie> yeah, well, like i said. we should encouarge people to use utf-8.
# [23:54] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@192.150.22.55) (Quit: Leaving.)
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# [23:55] <jgraham> All a validator can do for anything is issue "big-ass warnings"
# [23:55] <jgraham> Some of them will be marked "error", but that isn't strongly correlated with them actually producing erroneous behaviour
# [23:56] <jgraham> It does, however, seem very odd not to use the warning marked "error" in a case where erroneous behaviour is quite likely
# [23:59] <tantek> Hixie, how hard is it to get form submissions to use UTF-8?
# [23:59] <Hixie> as an author? not hard at al
# [23:59] <Hixie> l
# [23:59] <tantek> URL?
# [23:59] <tantek> (of explanatory example)
# [23:59] <annevk> tantek: <form accept-charset=utf-8>
# [23:59] <tantek> does anyone do it?
# [23:59] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-form-accept-charset
# Session Close: Tue Oct 23 00:00:00 2012

The end :)