/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-10-25 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Oct 25 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:01] <annevk> "You have been banned from r/pyongyang." haha
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# [00:33] <Hixie> annevk: dunno (i saw there was a serialise argument in the api section already)
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# [01:02] <zewt> dreaming of the day sites don't have file download "links" as form submit buttons with onclick handlers that call window.open
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# [01:24] <GPHemsley> annevk: I found this, but it seems like it might be identical to the WHATWG one: http://dev.w3.org/html5/web-forms-2/
# [01:26] <GPHemsley> annevk: Ah, I think there may have only been one before it was superseded: http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-web-forms-2-20060821/
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# [01:30] * GPHemsley would just like to say that he thinks the separation between W3C HTML5 and WHATWG HTML is a good one. The latter should be implemented unprefixed and on by default; the latter should be prefixed and/or preffed off by default.
# [01:30] <GPHemsley> (In terms of features.)
# [01:31] <GPHemsley> I don't know if that's a controversial opinion or not...
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# [01:56] <zewt> ... where they disagree, nobody's ever going to implement both, heh
# [02:01] <Hixie> why would things in the WHATWG spec be prefixed? Prefixing is to avoid conflicts with specs, and I guarantee that I won't spec something that conflicts.
# [02:02] <Hixie> (unless doing so is considered ok, e.g. because the code never shipped or was never used or whatever)
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# [02:07] <GPHemsley> Nevermind, I don't feel like having a detailed discussion right now :P
# [02:08] <GPHemsley> Though it's possible the ideal W3C that I have in my head is too far from reality.
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# [04:02] <Yuhong> GPHemsley: Yep, I have considered "HTML5" a misnomer even as a buzzword for a while now.
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# [04:04] <Yuhong> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4422122
# [04:05] <Yuhong> On Mosaic IMG tag.
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# [04:42] <Hixie> there's a CLOCK on this wiki
# [04:42] <Hixie> o_O
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# [04:57] <MikeSmith> Hixie: that's a timer so that I can time how quickly I can delete edits that other people make
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# [05:11] <Hixie> hah
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# [06:18] <cgcardona> http://jsfiddle.net/E9DSH/ shows the networkState as 1 (NETWORK_IDLE) when the Audio Object's progress event fires when the spec says it should be 2 (NETWORK_LOADING). Am I missing something?
# [06:18] <cgcardona> Also sometimes the suspend event fires with a NETWORK_LOADING instead of a NETWORK_IDLE
# [06:18] <cgcardona> in chrome ^^
# [06:18] <cgcardona> Also in Safari - so I'm guessing webkit.
# [06:19] <cgcardona> I'm wondering if it's just some subtlety in the resource selection algorithm
# [06:19] <cgcardona> I'm looking here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-video-element.html#event-media-progress
# [06:22] <cgcardona> Also it's interesting that it fires more than one time
# [06:23] <MikeSmith> cgcardona: it seems to be showing 2 for me
# [06:23] <MikeSmith> in that jsfiddle
# [06:23] <cgcardona> MikeSmith: on each page refresh?
# [06:23] <cgcardona> it does perhaps once out of every 15 or so for me
# [06:23] <cgcardona> put all the other times it's a 1
# [06:23] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Yup, it's a UTC clock. And if you click it, you purge the page cache (if that's a problem).
# [06:24] * GPHemsley is not sure what Yuhong was referring to.
# [06:24] <GPHemsley> annevk: I notice the URL spec doesn't cite WebIDL.
# [06:24] <MikeSmith> cgcardona: it's same for me after a page refresh
# [06:25] <MikeSmith> consistently 2
# [06:25] <cgcardona> how strange. in chrome? what version?
# [06:26] <MikeSmith> latest canary and dev on OS X
# [06:26] <MikeSmith> 24.0.1302
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# [06:27] <cgcardona> ok cool MikeSmith thanks. I'm only getting 2 maybe 15% of the time. strange.
# [06:28] <MikeSmith> also I guess you know that test doesn't seem to work in Firefox or Opera
# [06:28] <cgcardona> right its got an mp3 extension
# [06:28] <cgcardona> my actual audio library accounts for that and detects the codec
# [06:28] <cgcardona> and adds the correct file type
# [06:29] <Hixie> GPHemsley: funky
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# [06:33] <GPHemsley> Incidentally, if you don't like the clock, you can turn it off in My preferences > Gadgets
# [06:33] <GPHemsley> (You'll find a list of a bunch of other gadgets that are installed, as well.)
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# [06:57] <GPHemsley> <3 http://ian.hixie.ch/bible/policies
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# [06:57] <Hixie> http://ian.hixie.ch/bible/handling-people is the more useful one
# [06:58] <Hixie> knowing those makes it so much easier to tell when people are manipulating you
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# [07:00] <Hixie> (for standards work, spotting the ones in the last section of that file is especially useful)
# [07:01] <cgcardona> epic
# [07:04] <cgcardona> 'Not sure if Hixie really thinks my work is shit—or if he's trying to tell if I'm manipulating him' http://memegenerator.net/instance/28964300
# [07:08] * GPHemsley notes Hixie's rules for pluralizing words that end in 'us' is (almost) completely non-interoperable: http://ian.hixie.ch/bible/english
# [07:11] <GPHemsley> (The exception is 'radii'.)
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# [07:12] <GPHemsley> Also, "similar" is undefined in "Any word whose singular ends with a *sound* like "us" or similar,"
# [07:12] <Hixie> details
# [07:12] <a-ja> no "All Y'all" in en-US-hixie ?
# [07:12] <GPHemsley> as there are at least 3 different sounds represented in that list of words
# [07:13] <Hixie> not if you pronounce them correctly! :-P
# [07:13] <GPHemsley> bus/cactus/octopus
# [07:13] <GPHemsley> all have different vowels in their last syllable
# [07:14] <Hixie> no no no, all the same
# [07:14] <Hixie> LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU
# [07:14] <GPHemsley> ^_^
# [07:14] <GPHemsley> if you can't hear me, how do you know what the sounds are?
# [07:15] <GPHemsley> a-ja: If he listed all the 2nd person plurals in en-US, he'd have to create a completely different spec
# [07:16] <a-ja> point taken
# [07:16] * GPHemsley wonders if he could ever find evidence of Hixie using singular 'they'...
# [07:17] <Hixie> not hard, especially when i'm trying to be feminist
# [07:17] <GPHemsley> Another violation, then.
# [07:17] <Hixie> indeed :-)
# [07:17] <GPHemsley> tsk tsk
# [07:21] <GPHemsley> There has been surprisingly little use of 'thru' in this channel.
# [07:23] <GPHemsley> Alright, that's enough Hixie stalking for one night.
# [07:23] <GPHemsley> Time for me to go to bed.
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# [07:49] <hsivonen> context for http://memegenerator.net/instance/28964300 ?
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# [08:00] <cgcardona> heh
# [08:00] <cgcardona> hixie's comment like two lines above it
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# [08:00] <cgcardona> Hixie: knowing those makes it so much easier to tell when people are manipulating you
# [08:00] <cgcardona> hsivonen: ^
# [08:01] <cgcardona> just a joke
# [08:03] <hsivonen> cgcardona: oh I see
# [08:05] <hsivonen> pattern matching the uri mailing list discussion to handling-people would be an amusing exercise
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# [08:12] <hsivonen> Is http://css-live.ru/ a legitimate site?
# [08:12] <hsivonen> i.e. not a SEO scheme?
# [08:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: never came across it before
# [08:14] <MikeSmith> but link:css-live.ru shows only 32 links to it
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# [08:16] <MikeSmith> hmm mostly from the site itself and from "wordpressadmin.ru"
# [08:18] <hsivonen> they ask for permission to translate articles
# [08:18] <MikeSmith> oh
# [08:18] <hsivonen> so far, my experience with offers to translate my stuff into Eastern European languages have been SEO schemes
# [08:19] <hsivonen> hmm. the start and end of that sentence don’t match
# [08:19] <MikeSmith> yeah same here
# [08:19] <hsivonen> I guess I forgot what I was saying in mid-sentence
# [08:19] <MikeSmith> heh
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# [08:20] <MikeSmith> from what I have seen, in many cases where W3C gets offers to translate something, it's from somebody doing it just for SEO reasons
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# [08:22] <cgcardona> MikeSmith: this shows what's happening with the audio object in greater detail. http://jsfiddle.net/CPrtb/ You'll need to have your console open so you can see the logs.
# [08:22] <cgcardona> of course i don't have a button for the volume on there but those events fire as well.
# [08:24] <cgcardona> admittedly verbose :p
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# [08:28] <MikeSmith> cgcardona: that music is nice until the dude starts single
# [08:28] <cgcardona> Lp
# [08:28] <cgcardona> :p
# [08:28] <MikeSmith> did Taylor Swift write this song?
# [08:28] <MikeSmith> :)
# [08:29] <MikeSmith> a
# [08:29] <cgcardona> :)
# [08:29] <MikeSmith> anyway, I see only NETWORK_LOADING in the console
# [08:29] <cgcardona> never a NETWORK_IDLE?
# [08:30] <cgcardona> wonder what the heck is going on over here?
# [08:30] <MikeSmith> ah weird
# [08:30] <cgcardona> i get NETWORK_IDLE for suspend, pause, timeupdate
# [08:30] <cgcardona> canplay, canplaythrough
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# [08:30] <cgcardona> anyway - it's no biggie. I'm just trying to understand the Audio Object greater
# [08:30] <MikeSmith> after a page reload yeah now I'm seeing _IDLE for play
# [08:31] <MikeSmith> I see _LOADING for pause
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# [08:31] <cgcardona> i'm guessing it has to do with the media element load algorithm in a way I'm not understanding.
# [08:31] <cgcardona> i've not read through the media element load algorithm too deeply so I'm gonna check it out now.
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# [08:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: fyi I finally just now pushed the datetime change to the repo, and re-deployed for all the W3C validator hosts
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# [08:48] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. I wonder if I should redeploy now or after TPAC.
# [08:48] <MikeSmith> no rush I guess
# [08:48] <hsivonen> hmm. Robin is listed as unaffiliated as a TAG member
# [08:49] <MikeSmith> I thought Robin had stepped down from the TAG
# [08:49] <hsivonen> oh
# [08:49] <hsivonen> I was just checking if getting hired by the W3C triggered some rule that prohibited continued participation on the TAG
# [08:50] <hsivonen> so the answer is “yes”? and the TAG page is just out of date?
# [08:51] <MikeSmith> I think there's no prohibition but it was probably more just about him making a choice about his time
# [08:51] <hsivonen> I see
# [08:51] <MikeSmith> but yeah I think it's probably out of date
# [08:52] <hsivonen> so being on both the TAG and on the HTML WG was too much even for Robin. :-)
# [08:53] <hsivonen> groups to try next: public-tracking
# [08:54] <MikeSmith> that's a fun list
# [08:54] <annevk> GPHemsley: I can only make big changes?
# [08:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: Robin stepped down as co-chair of the DAP WG as well, btw
# [08:54] <annevk> GPHemsley: and yeah, yeah, I'll add a reference; I'll do that Oprah thing at one point, references for everyone
# [08:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. I hadn’t noticed.
# [08:55] <hsivonen> I was wondering why there was a different chair listed on the TPAC schedule
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# [09:13] <annevk> Hixie: btw, I found the bug with dfn.js; you cannot use ID names such as "constructor"
# [09:14] <annevk> Hixie: I ended up renaming the section to "Constructors"
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# [09:43] <hsivonen> annevk: in your formulation for text/css encoding determination, you forgot the case where an ASCII-encoded @charset rule claims the encoding is UTF-16 (or BE)
# [09:43] <hsivonen> annevk: also, the formulation checks the validity of the label only at the end
# [09:44] <hsivonen> instead upon seeing each label candidate
# [09:44] <annevk> hsivonen: yeah, Simon pointed out the second bug
# [09:44] <annevk> my bad
# [09:44] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: ^
# [09:45] <annevk> I can rewrite it I suppose, I believe TabAtkins likes to just copy & paste...
# [09:45] <hsivonen> ok
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# [09:46] <hsivonen> I noticed the bug about checking the label only at the end after I had already written code to check the label immediately in each case
# [09:46] <hsivonen> shows that I think I know what the spec is supposed to say instead of really following the spec. :-/
# [09:48] <annevk> I wonder if I should introduce "known label" or just use "get an encoding" in each step
# [09:48] <annevk> I guess I'll try the latter first since Simon preferred that
# [09:49] <hsivonen> annevk: it would be nice if the resulting text made it obvious that the BOM takes precedence without spec lawyering
# [09:49] <hsivonen> can a non-ASCII byte sequence be valid in two of the three legacy Japanese encodings?
# [09:50] <hsivonen> or in both of the legacy Korean encodings?
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# [09:56] <annevk> hsivonen: how about now: http://html5.org/temp/cssencoding.txt
# [09:56] <annevk> oh shit
# [09:56] <annevk> forgot about utf-16 again :/
# [09:58] <annevk> fixed that too
# [09:58] * annevk curses utf-16
# [10:00] <annevk> hsivonen: btw, I also added <?xml-stylesheet?>, Simon suggested it could have a charset attribute too
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# [10:00] <annevk> hsivonen: if that's bogus I'll remove it again; I really think step 4/5 ought to move elsewhere, they should be an argument to determining the encoding
# [10:02] <hsivonen> annevk: I wonder if step 2 should change UTF-16 to UTF-8 like <meta>
# [10:02] <hsivonen> no idea what’s more Web compatible
# [10:02] <hsivonen> Gecko already supported xml-stylesheet charset
# [10:03] <hsivonen> so looks OK except I’m not sure if step 2 should do the thing that <meta> does with UTF-16
# [10:04] <annevk> hsivonen: normally we just ignore utf-16 labels right?
# [10:04] <hsivonen> do we? where?
# [10:04] <annevk> hsivonen: cross-document
# [10:04] <hsivonen> but this is not cross-document
# [10:04] <annevk> hsivonen: should we ignore it for <link charset>?
# [10:04] <annevk> hsivonen: yeah okay, I'm happy to align with <meta>
# [10:05] <annevk> if you make the call I'll update my text file
# [10:05] <hsivonen> annevk: I wouldn’t ignore it for <link charset> without data showing that ignoring is more Web-compatible
# [10:05] <annevk> writing some minor text/css history here :p
# [10:05] <hsivonen> annevk: the sheet operates in the origin of the including document, so the security scenario is not like iframe
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# [10:05] <hsivonen> annevk: let’s align with <meta>
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# [10:09] <annevk> hsivonen: reload
# [10:09] <hsivonen> how does the process work at the CSS WG? Will this text go through an epic debate in a telecon next?
# [10:09] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks. looks good
# [10:09] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: http://html5.org/temp/cssencoding.txt
# [10:11] <annevk> hsivonen: last time TabAtkins just put it in css3-syntax
# [10:12] <annevk> hsivonen: I understand that Bert does not like css3-syntax, but that's a minor hurdle
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# [10:13] <hsivonen> meanwhile on www-tag: “Wrong on several counts. First, this isn’t what ‘meaning’ means.”
# [10:14] <annevk> I was loving that tweet
# [10:15] <annevk> subject too "Working without being ambushed by Ambiguity"
# [10:17] <annevk> whoa, timbl started that thread
# [10:17] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2012Oct/0086.html
# [10:17] <annevk> pretty lengthy
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# [10:25] <hsivonen> From the W3C: “The Open Web Platform, which includes core W3C technologies such as HTML, CSS, SVG, XML, XSLT, XSL-FO, PNG, RDF, and many more, are already extensively in eBooks and eBook production.”
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# [10:31] <annevk> Open technologies for your walled gardens! We'll even promote them too!
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# [11:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen_: left out TTML from that list
# [11:03] * MikeSmith makes a note to add it later
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# [11:07] <hsivonen> sigh. what’s wrong with me. I’ve started hg pulling without hg qpopping first
# [11:07] <MikeSmith> didn't know you were using queues
# [11:07] <MikeSmith> I've doned that too
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# [11:14] <jgraham> hsivonen: What's wrong with you is that you're still using hg ;)
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# [11:48] <hsivonen> I just took a look at our Character Encoding menu code
# [11:48] <hsivonen> complex code is complex
# [11:48] <hsivonen> RDF and all
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# [11:49] <Ms2ger> Yay RDF
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# [11:51] <hsivonen> uh oh. our plug-in host has code for translating Gecko charset names to Java charset names
# [11:51] <hsivonen> I wonder what that is about
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# [11:58] <annevk> hsivonen: try to make your menu more like Chrome/Safari
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# [11:59] <hsivonen> annevk: what data is the non-inclusion of e.g. MacGreek in the Encoding Standard based on?
# [11:59] <hsivonen> that is, Mac encodings other than roman and cyrillic
# [12:00] <hsivonen> what about EUC-TW? based on not having a common name among browsers?
# [12:00] <annevk> for single-byte encodings the data I used for my decisions is here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Apr/att-0058/spectable.html
# [12:00] <annevk> (there's several variants of that table floating around, I think that's the latest)
# [12:00] <annevk> for multi-byte encodings I looked on those common among browsers, indeed
# [12:01] <annevk> basically the same way of decision making, just less data on the latter because there's not that many
# [12:01] <hsivonen> annevk: that page doesn’t explain the non-inclusion of non-Roman, non-Cyrillic Mac
# [12:04] <annevk> hsivonen: sorry
# [12:05] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2011Dec/att-0021/encoding-labels.html is somewhat better at addressing that question I suppose
# [12:05] <annevk> non-support by Chrome/Opera was the reason for removal of most of them it seems, sometimes non-support by Firefox/IE/Safari
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# [12:06] <annevk> (that table is hard to read though :/)
# [12:07] <hsivonen> I see. I hope it’s the right call for MacGreek, etc.
# [12:07] <hsivonen> most likely is
# [12:07] <annevk> hsivonen: I think the reason is that Chrome has no support for x-mac-ce, x-mac-greek, x-mac-turkish
# [12:08] <hsivonen> I just want to know the basis in case someone blames me if we remove those and some site breaks
# [12:08] <annevk> hsivonen: and Opera on non-Mac platforms has no support for those either
# [12:08] <hsivonen> annevk: interesting
# [12:08] <annevk> (weird decision by Opera's encoding guy imo)
# [12:08] <hsivonen> I’d be surprised if there were Mac*Roman* Web sites
# [12:08] <annevk> (there's a bug that may or may not be fixed already)
# [12:09] <annevk> hsivonen: they also did not turn up in the content studies, but macintosh and I think ukrainian did
# [12:09] <annevk> but it's now almost a year since I did the research so memory is fussy
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# [12:10] <hsivonen> in Mac Opera pulling additional encodings from a platform API or something?
# [12:11] <annevk> I guess I can say it's an ifdef, I hope they won't sue :)
# [12:11] <odinho> annevk: oh my oh my oh my ;-)
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# [12:40] <annevk> hsivonen: should I subscribe to apps-discuss?
# [12:41] <hsivonen> annevk: probably better not to
# [12:41] <hsivonen> annevk: do you want to argue about how reality-aligned text/* registrations will be?
# [12:42] <hsivonen> 386 opportunity
# [12:42] <annevk> heh
# [12:42] <annevk> I'm hoping GPHemsley will squash that argument in MIME Sniffing at some point
# [12:43] <hsivonen> is GPHemsley editing MIME Sniffing?
# [12:48] <annevk> he's considering it
# [12:49] <MikeSmith> hmm isn't foo&;bar a document-conformance error?
# [12:50] <MikeSmith> and parse error
# [12:51] <MikeSmith> spec says an ambiguous ampersand is and ampersand followed by one or more alphanumeric chars followed by semicolon
# [12:51] <MikeSmith> I think I assumed it was zero or more alphanumeric
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# [13:06] <MikeSmith> hmm yeah foo&;bar is not a parse error and not a document-conformance error either
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# [13:15] <zcorpan> annevk: looks good. now i'll check how well browsers match it
# [13:19] <annevk> hsivonen: so I guess at some point I should write a xmlencoding.txt too?
# [13:20] <hsivonen> possibly. that code in Gecko is semi-bogus
# [13:20] <hsivonen> and hard to fix nicely
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# [13:41] <annevk> fair enough and actually, if we're gonna touch XML at all, we might as well improve it a whole lot
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# [13:54] <MikeSmith> argh is "&hyphen" still meant to be a parse error?
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# [13:56] <MikeSmith> &hypen; (with semi-colon) is listed in the named-character references tables but &hyphen is not
# [13:57] <MikeSmith> for cases like &acute which is listed both with and without semicolon in the table, my workspace validator code is still correctly reporting a parse error
# [13:57] <MikeSmith> but for ones like &hyphen which aren't listed without a semicolon I'm not reporting an error
# [13:58] <MikeSmith> any more
# [13:58] <MikeSmith> I wonder if I should be
# [13:59] <annevk> you want me to try read the spec for that case?
# [14:01] <MikeSmith> nah
# [14:01] <MikeSmith> I just need to re-read it
# [14:01] <MikeSmith> but I'm hungry
# [14:01] <MikeSmith> so I'll eat and then re-read
# [14:02] <zcorpan> don't forget to consume the hyphen at the end
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# [14:02] <zcorpan> i mean semicolon
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# [14:02] <zcorpan> if your meal does not end with a semicolon, it may or may not be a parse error
# [14:03] <MikeSmith> hah
# [14:03] <MikeSmith> clever
# [14:03] <zcorpan> (possibly you need to unconsume all of it and then eat it again, but let's not worry about that)
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# [14:12] <jgraham> Please don't eat your meal again if you have to unconsume it because it didn't reach a semicolon
# [14:12] <jgraham> That's not healthy
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# [15:03] <zcorpan> hsivonen: why wouldn't <p> precede <main> in conforming content?
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# [15:59] <GPHemsley> annevk: You tend to be a little overzealous in what you consider "minor" ;)
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# [16:07] <GPHemsley> annevk: In order to edit mimesniff, I'd have to be a member of the whatwg organization on github, right?
# [16:07] <annevk> GPHemsley: yeah
# [16:08] <annevk> GPHemsley: I can add you if that's what you're asking for
# [16:08] <annevk> GPHemsley: I'm non-intrusive man, just look at uri@w3.org
# [16:09] <GPHemsley> annevk: Sure, then, I suppose I'll give it a shot.
# [16:09] <annevk> GPHemsley: username is GPHemsley?
# [16:09] <GPHemsley> yup
# [16:09] <GPHemsley> I still do wish we had more than one mailing list, though
# [16:10] <GPHemsley> I really don't want to subscribe to a list where I won't read 95% of the content :/
# [16:10] <annevk> GPHemsley: just ask people to file bugs rather than email
# [16:11] <annevk> GPHemsley: and archive stuff that does not have you in cc or to or something like that
# [16:11] <annevk> GPHemsley: but whatwg is not super high traffic
# [16:11] <GPHemsley> It used to be...
# [16:11] <GPHemsley> (I was subscribed a few years ago)
# [16:12] <GPHemsley> but OK
# [16:12] <annevk> GPHemsley: you're part of the GitHub team now
# [16:12] <GPHemsley> I'll give it another shot
# [16:12] <GPHemsley> annevk: Thanks!
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# [16:16] <GPHemsley> If anyone was worried, I've restored the favicon to the wiki.
# [16:18] * GPHemsley wonders what lxml is, since it has a lot of install warnings.
# [16:19] <annevk> I kinda want to define scheme as including the ":"
# [16:21] * GPHemsley finds it curious that the new wiki search is case-sensitive
# [16:22] <annevk> I guess nobody can stop me doing that, but I if anyone thinks of any issues, let me know!
# [16:22] <MikeSmith> oh boy
# [16:23] <annevk> MikeSmith: was uri@w3.org the mailing list we discussed the other day btw?
# [16:23] <MikeSmith> annevk: I can't imagine that anybody's going to object to you re-defining what a scheme is
# [16:23] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah
# [16:23] <MikeSmith> you posted to it didn't you?
# [16:23] <annevk> MikeSmith: so I guess I sort of covered posting on there
# [16:23] <annevk> MikeSmith: well someone else started, my name is in the thread's subject...
# [16:24] <GPHemsley> anolis, html5lib, and mimesniff all have to have the same parent directory, right?
# [16:24] <MikeSmith> annevk: hey I was thinking we should post to whatever mailing list there is for curl developers
# [16:24] <MikeSmith> or curl developers and users
# [16:24] <MikeSmith> and wget, etc.
# [16:24] <annevk> GPHemsley: no, just xref and mimesniff
# [16:24] <annevk> GPHemsley: anolis/html5lib you need to install using system Python
# [16:25] <MikeSmith> as in post a heads-up saying Hey here's the new URL spec that it would be great to have some review and feedback on
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# [16:25] <annevk> MikeSmith: maybe I should write the thing first where you can terminate the parser if input does not match the URL syntax
# [16:26] <annevk> MikeSmith: as far as I can tell that should be relatively straightforward
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# [16:28] <GPHemsley> annevk: I'm getting a "/bin/sh: anolis: command not found" error
# [16:29] <annevk> GPHemsley: did you install Anolis?
# [16:29] <GPHemsley> oh, hang on, I think it's just a PATH issue
# [16:31] <GPHemsley> hmm, it says I need cssselect installed
# [16:32] <MikeSmith> annevk: that sounds good to me
# [16:33] <MikeSmith> (about the terminating the parser stuff)
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# [16:37] <GPHemsley> hmm... apparently if you run make without having changed anything, the compiled file disappears
# [16:37] <GPHemsley> (that seems weird)
# [16:39] <annevk> run
# [16:39] <annevk> touch Overview.src.html
# [16:39] <annevk> make
# [16:39] <annevk> if it's still gone, something else is amiss
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# [16:40] <GPHemsley> annevk: Well, I made actual changes and ran make again, and it came back
# [16:41] <GPHemsley> (recall that the file was already present before I ran make on an unchanged source)
# [16:41] <annevk> sure, doesn't seem like a huge deal then
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# [16:48] <dsadinoff> To whom can we turn to solve the "I'd like to see frozen headers while scrolling a table" problem? There seem to be many half-baked solutions, but none that work reliably. Seems like a job for CSS, no?
# [16:48] <annevk> dsadinoff: yeah, www-style@w3.org
# [16:48] <annevk> dsadinoff: WHATWG isn't doing any CSS for now
# [16:49] <dsadinoff> okay, sorry to bother you.
# [16:49] <MikeSmith> dsadinoff: it's still OK to talk about CSS here :)
# [16:49] <annevk> right, this channel is pretty open-ended
# [16:52] <dsadinoff> Mostly, I'm looking for evidence that it's on someone's to-do list. It's kind of an HTML issue, in that I see it as the unfulfilled promise of HTML4's THEAD
# [16:53] <GPHemsley> abarth, Hixie: Do you relinquish editorship of mimesniff?
# [16:53] <annevk> dsadinoff: it's not HTML
# [16:53] <annevk> dsadinoff: HTML has no control over UI or look & feel, CSS does to some extent
# [16:54] <dsadinoff> THEAD seems like HTML to me.
# [16:55] <SimonSapin> dsadinoff: feel free to ask on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/ (the CSS mailing list)
# [16:55] <annevk> MikeSmith: so I did redefined query/fragment to include the leading ?/#
# [16:55] <annevk> -d
# [16:55] * GPHemsley mumbles something about anolis not letting him use @
# [16:56] <annevk> GPHemsley: not gonna protect you
# [16:56] <GPHemsley> from the stupid ones... >_>
# [16:56] <dsadinoff> Thanks everybody. there seems to be an interesting and germane discussion at www-style on "sticky positioning" .
# [16:56] <dsadinoff> cheers!
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# [16:57] <MikeSmith> annevk: redefine all the things!
# [16:57] <annevk> MikeSmith: it's not exactly on purpose, it was just the easiest
# [16:58] <annevk> MikeSmith: and "redefining" scheme makes it easier too, and we do often talk about data: URLs and javascript: URLs
# [16:58] <annevk> it fits usage too
# [16:58] <MikeSmith> true
# [16:58] <annevk> but I can see arguments either way, e.g. that syntax constructs should not be part of the value
# [16:58] <annevk> but that's mostly a purity argument, not a pragmatic one
# [16:58] <annevk> man, I think about this too much, better take a break
# [17:00] <GPHemsley> :)
# [17:00] <GPHemsley> annevk: So, are you doing away with the // or what?
# [17:01] <annevk> GPHemsley: can't; http:example.org on http://foo/ results in http://foo/example.org
# [17:01] <GPHemsley> it does? o_0
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# [17:02] <annevk> but now this
# [17:03] <annevk> http:example.org on https://foo/ results in http://example.org/
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# [17:03] <annevk> you know why? because topic
# [17:03] <GPHemsley> -_-
# [17:03] <Hixie> GPHemsley: i haven't edited it since it came out of the html spec
# [17:04] * GPHemsley takes that as a yes
# [17:04] <annevk> GPHemsley: generally you should feel free to submit patches to any of the specs in the whatwg repo
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# [17:04] <annevk> GPHemsley: Ms2ger, I, and others review the changes and will let you know if something goes amiss
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# [17:05] <GPHemsley> annevk: For mimesniff, though, I can commit directly, right? Or no?
# [17:06] <annevk> commit-then-review is what we usually practice
# [17:06] * GPHemsley needs to clarify what you mean by "submit patches", as he hasn't seen anyone do that.
# [17:06] <GPHemsley> ah, ok
# [17:06] <GPHemsley> I come from Mozillaland, where patches are submitted to bug reports to be reviewed.
# [17:07] <Hixie> the whatwg attitude is "trust and verify", we just assume that if someone goes crazy we'll revoke their rights and restore from backup
# [17:07] <GPHemsley> k
# [17:07] <Hixie> so far you seem pretty sensible, to me :-P
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# [17:07] <annevk> maybe we should do that at some point, but thus far for every 1000 commits there's only a couple that are wrong
# [17:07] <GPHemsley> :)
# [17:07] <annevk> so it's not really worth the hassle
# [17:07] <GPHemsley> ok, just wanted to clarify
# [17:09] <annevk> GPHemsley: you already forgot you have to ask for forgiveness? :p
# [17:10] * GPHemsley is not used to having so much power.
# [17:12] <GPHemsley> In that case, I hope abarth forgives me if his answer is no. :)
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# [17:16] <GPHemsley> it sure is easy to break anolis...
# [17:16] <GPHemsley> have one undefined reference, and the whole thing explodes ;)
# [17:17] <GPHemsley> How do I add a new reference? Do I have to edit xref?
# [17:17] <annevk> Hixie: I think I asked this before, why is it "space characters" and not "ASCII whitespace"?
# [17:18] <annevk> GPHemsley: yes
# [17:18] <MikeSmith> annevk: so you think it would be useful to send a heads-up about the URL spec to the curl mailing list? "review is welcome" etc.?
# [17:18] <MikeSmith> if so I can send one
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# [17:18] <annevk> MikeSmith: ah yeah, why not, maybe indicate the plan is to give the parser a strict option
# [17:19] <MikeSmith> OK
# [17:19] <annevk> MikeSmith: most of the groundwork for such an option is now in place, might add it tomorrow
# [17:19] <MikeSmith> hai
# [17:19] <GPHemsley> annevk: references.json?
# [17:19] <annevk> MikeSmith: oh and maybe cc me and say they have to cc me if they want replies
# [17:19] <MikeSmith> k
# [17:19] <annevk> GPHemsley: yes, for a data-anolis-ref
# [17:19] <Hixie> annevk: same reason it's not "characters that are spaces" or "spaces" or "whitespace characters" or "the bimbams" or any other equivalently defined opaque phrase :-)
# [17:19] <GPHemsley> annevk: Are there other kinds?
# [17:20] <annevk> Hixie: I might start using ASCII whitespace in my specs
# [17:20] <annevk> Hixie: aligns better with a bunch of other terms I need for URL
# [17:20] <GPHemsley> annevk: This one is unusual in that it's an academic reference, rather than a spec or other webpage
# [17:20] <annevk> Hixie: and I have this wish of at some point having unified terminology...
# [17:21] <annevk> GPHemsley: yeah, cross-spec references
# [17:21] <annevk> GPHemsley: no that's fine, it can go in references.json
# [17:21] <GPHemsley> it may have the record for longest ref abbreviation
# [17:21] <Hixie> annevk: if you really care, file a bug, but it's a lot of work to change and unless you have a really compelling reason (cross-spec consistency isn't strong enough imho) i'll likely wontfix or later it...
# [17:22] <GPHemsley> ...or maybe not
# [17:22] <GPHemsley> annevk: Are their best practices for naming a ref?
# [17:22] <annevk> Hixie: I was mostly wondering if you had a compelling reason for me not to pursue "ASCII whitespace" in my specs and maybe at some point once we're all bored fix specs to use that everywhere :)
# [17:22] <GPHemsley> s/their/there/
# [17:22] <annevk> Hixie: so thanks :)
# [17:23] <annevk> GPHemsley: uppercase, not too long, not really?
# [17:23] <GPHemsley> annevk: Should there be?
# [17:23] <GPHemsley> we have a lovely wiki...
# [17:23] <GPHemsley> ;)
# [17:24] <annevk> GPHemsley: heh, if you feel like finding the pattern and encouraging people to follow it, be my guest
# [17:25] <Hixie> annevk: sounds fine to me. i could come up with an argument like "phrases with acronyms don't read as well" but it'd be a post-hoc rationalisation.
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# [17:26] <annevk> GPHemsley: as a warning of sorts, in general additional rules make it more complicated for people to contribute
# [17:26] <GPHemsley> they're *guidelines* ;)
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# [17:26] <annevk> GPHemsley: I'm not opposed :)
# [17:27] <GPHemsley> is there a way to specify a year/date in the references?
# [17:27] <annevk> GPHemsley: don't think so
# [17:27] <annevk> GPHemsley: put it in the title
# [17:27] * GPHemsley wonders if that's a problem.
# [17:29] <GPHemsley> I'll leave it out for now.
# [17:29] <annevk> MikeSmith: GPHemsley: good luck, gotta go train/cycle around
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# [17:29] <GPHemsley> k
# [17:29] <GPHemsley> thanks
# [17:29] <Hixie> as editor, you don't want the date in the refs, trust me
# [17:29] <MikeSmith> enjoy annevk
# [17:30] <Hixie> you'll just spend your whole time updating refs
# [17:31] <GPHemsley> well, article dates tend not to change, but OK
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# [17:32] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Incidentally, what is RFCs.json for? Because apparently it's not used to cite as RFCs as references...
# [17:35] <MikeSmith> it is used I think
# [17:35] <MikeSmith> somehow
# [17:35] <MikeSmith> or maybe not
# [17:36] <MikeSmith> ms2ger would know
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# [17:38] <Hixie> hm, today will probably end up being a feature day
# [17:38] <Hixie> the next few bugs are all feature requests
# [17:39] <Hixie> allow-pointerlock for sandbox, and a bunch of appcache things
# [17:40] <GPHemsley> Is it standard practice to list acknowledgements alphabetically by first name, or am I free to do whatever I want? :)
# [17:41] <GPHemsley> Oh, and where does en-x-hixie stand on the spelling of acknowledgements?
# [17:41] <Hixie> free to do whatever you want
# [17:41] <Hixie> on pretty much anything
# [17:42] <Hixie> and if your judgement is poor, you'll hear about it :-P
# [17:42] <GPHemsley> well, the fact that you are not worried about my judgment makes me happy
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# [18:33] <MikeSmith> I pushed ampersand changes from my workspace to http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/
# [18:33] <MikeSmith> behavior now should match the spec
# [18:33] <MikeSmith> if anybody has time to test
# [18:34] * MikeSmith Memoserv help
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# [18:34] <MikeSmith> oops
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# Session Close: Thu Oct 25 18:41:10 2012
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# Session Start: Thu Oct 25 18:41:10 2012
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [18:47] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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# [19:08] <GPHemsley> Oh, right, we're using W3C for bug tracking, aren't we?
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# [19:09] <GPHemsley> How do I get myself set as the default assignee/QA contact?
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# [19:33] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, ask MikeSmith
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# [19:33] * GPHemsley has asked so many questions today.
# [19:33] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Which one are you referring to?
# [19:34] <Ms2ger> The most recent
# [19:34] <Ms2ger> <GPHemsley> How do I get myself set as the default assignee/QA contact?
# [19:34] <GPHemsley> ah, thanks
# [19:38] <pablof> i hear this Anne chick is hot, http://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2012-October/022583.html
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# [20:06] * GPHemsley recalls making the same mistake.
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# [20:16] <MikeSmith> GPHemsley: for what component? MIME?
# [20:17] <GPHemsley> yeah
# [20:19] <MikeSmith> ok done
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# [20:22] <GPHemsley> thanks
# [20:23] * GPHemsley finds it interesting that whitespace between <p> and text is stripped but whitespace between <dt> and text is not.
# [20:24] <Hixie> stripped by what?
# [20:27] <GPHemsley> the browser
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# [20:29] <tantek> which browser?
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# [20:29] <Ms2ger> Not in the DOM, I presume
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# [20:32] <Hixie> not sure what you mean
# [20:32] <Hixie> neither should be stripped
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# [20:36] <GPHemsley> if I have <p>\n\tFoo, the browser shows |Foo (where | is the edge of the box
# [20:36] <GPHemsley> if I have <dt>\n\tFoo, the browser shows | Foo (where | is the edge of the box)
# [20:37] <Ms2ger> Well, yes
# [20:37] <Ms2ger> That's the margin on the dt
# [20:37] <Ms2ger> No
# [20:37] <Ms2ger> I'm stupid
# [20:37] <Ms2ger> And I can't tell the difference between d ant t
# [20:38] <GPHemsley> and this is in Gecko
# [20:38] <Ms2ger> Not here
# [20:39] <GPHemsley> really?
# [20:40] <GPHemsley> hmm
# [20:41] <GPHemsley> I wonder if it has anything to do with dt:before { content: 'asdf'; }
# [20:42] <GPHemsley> oh, or maybe it's the inline-block
# [20:47] <Ms2ger> Oh, and RFCs.json is just a list you can copy from if you need a reference to an RFC and you're too lazy to write it up yourself
# [20:47] <Ms2ger> (I made it while working on the HTML References section)
# [20:49] <Hixie> GPHemsley: in the absence of other styles, that's a bug
# [20:50] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Alright, I'll investigate it later.
# [20:50] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Ah, OK. That's what I used it for. :)
# [20:50] <Hixie> GPHemsley: :before acts like a text node that was inserted at the start of the element, so if that doesn't end with a space, and it's in-flow, then that will do it
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# [21:05] <Hixie> anyone know what referer browsers use when fetching things listed in appcache manifests?
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# [21:11] <ap> Hixie: I think that Safari doesn't send any
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# [21:13] <annevk> pablof: pics or it didn't happen
# [21:14] <Hixie> ap: interesting.
# [21:14] <annevk> GPHemsley: Acknowledgments without e is per W3C style guide iirc
# [21:14] <GPHemsley> does that matter? :)
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# [21:14] <annevk> GPHemsley: lexicographical by first name is because of nick names and complex sort order for last names in e.g. the Netherlands
# [21:15] <Hixie> ap: any opinion on whether we should change that? turns out the spec is bogus on this (it essentially has a null deref), so i need to define something. The three options I can see are nothing, the manifest, and the Document that triggered the update. The manifest probably makes the most sense.
# [21:15] <GPHemsley> annevk: Yeah, that one I decided to leave.
# [21:15] <annevk> GPHemsley: I don't think an "e" matters a whole lot, just nice to be consistent
# [21:15] <Hixie> i sort by first name because that's what emacs's "sort-lines" does
# [21:15] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Ah, so that's why you leave the 'and' tacked on to the end of a line
# [21:16] <Hixie> yeah :-)
# [21:16] <GPHemsley> annevk: I'm of the opinion that 'dg' doesn't make the right sound without the 'e' after it, so...
# [21:17] <ap> Hixie: agreed. that should be a relatively easy (albeit low priority) fix to use manifest for Referer for us, and I don't think that it could break anything
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# [21:18] <Hixie> ap: cool, i'll do that then, assuming my testing finds nothing substantial in other browsers. thanks.
# [21:18] <annevk> GPHemsley: you're not an American?
# [21:18] <GPHemsley> oh, I am
# [21:18] <GPHemsley> but I'm also a linguist
# [21:18] <GPHemsley> and a standards enthusiast
# [21:18] <Hixie> woah, woah
# [21:18] <GPHemsley> when you put the last two together, the third goes out the window ;)
# [21:19] <annevk> from Wikipedia's manual of style "acknowledgement vs acknowledgment: acknowledgement is preferred in British English,[9] acknowledgment in American English."
# [21:19] <Hixie> standards enthusiast?
# [21:19] <Hixie> i'm not sure that's allowed
# [21:19] <GPHemsley> uh oh
# [21:19] * GPHemsley runs
# [21:19] <annevk> Hixie: what are you gonna do? :p
# [21:19] <Hixie> damnit, there's nothing i CAN do!
# [21:19] <Hixie> i will look at him or her sternly!
# [21:20] <Hixie> (not falling into this trap of assuming people are a particular gender again!)
# [21:20] <GPHemsley> now now
# [21:20] <GPHemsley> everyone settle down
# [21:20] <GPHemsley> would it ease your mind if s/standards/specification/ ?
# [21:21] <Hixie> not sure
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# [21:22] <Hixie> what kind of specification?
# [21:22] <GPHemsley> what are my options?
# [21:22] <Hixie> orange specifications and yellow specifications.
# [21:23] <GPHemsley> orange
# [21:23] <Hixie> hmmmmmm ok then
# [21:23] <Hixie> in completely unrelated news, can i just say that debugging appcache is a huge pain in the neck
# [21:24] <Hixie> because you have to reload things like 5 times to make sure you have hte latest files
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# [21:24] <GPHemsley> oh, and FTR, I prefer male pronouns
# [21:25] <Hixie> for use when refering to you, or to others?
# [21:25] <GPHemsley> when referring to me
# [21:25] <Hixie> just checking
# [21:25] <GPHemsley> for everyone else, I just use "them"
# [21:25] <Hixie> seems wise
# [21:26] * Hixie finds out why his file isn't getting cached
# [21:26] <Hixie> forgot to update the manifest to point to it.
# [21:26] <annevk> Hixie: http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#writing should now match IRI except that I allow "iprivate" anywhere rather than just in "iquery"
# [21:26] <Hixie> good times
# [21:26] * GPHemsley will write an English orthography spec one day.
# [21:26] <Hixie> annevk: is a URI just a URL that only contains US-ASCII? (ignoring what escapes expand to?)
# [21:27] <annevk> Hixie: and that definition of URL units should at some point be aligned with the code point ranges of the HTML syntax (for code points above ASCII)
# [21:27] <annevk> Hixie: yeah
# [21:27] <Hixie> cool
# [21:27] <Hixie> hm. i wonder if it would make IETF folk happier or less happy if you actually put that definition of URI in the spec, come to the think of it.
# [21:27] <Hixie> probably not worth it, on the balance.
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# [21:28] <GPHemsley> Do we care about line length?
# [21:28] <annevk> GPHemsley: readable diffs are nice
# [21:29] <GPHemsley> well, I've put each sentence on a separate line
# [21:29] <GPHemsley> I'm just wondering if I should also wrap lines
# [21:29] <Hixie> i wrap to 100 chars these days
# [21:29] <annevk> my line length is pretty short at the moment, 77
# [21:29] <Hixie> used to wrap to 70 but my computers got bigger
# [21:29] <annevk> heh
# [21:30] <GPHemsley> if I wrapped, it'd be at 78, I think
# [21:30] <GPHemsley> so, did I hear two votes for wrapping?
# [21:30] <annevk> oh it's 76
# [21:30] <Ms2ger> Hixie, which does make your diffs a lot less useful :)
# [21:31] <GPHemsley> I'm hearing 3 votes for wrapping
# [21:31] <annevk> Hixie: Progress Events is part of XMLHttpRequest now
# [21:33] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, wrap, but only if you do at 80 :)
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# [21:33] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: What's wrong with 78?
# [21:33] <Ms2ger> It's two characters short of 80
# [21:33] <GPHemsley> that leaves room for line endings, though
# [21:34] <Ms2ger> Why not 79, then? :)
# [21:34] <GPHemsley> I suppose the real question is, what are the usecases for wrapped lines?
# [21:34] <GPHemsley> Just in case Windows gets involved
# [21:39] <Hixie> Ms2ger: for now, yeah.
# [21:39] <Hixie> Ms2ger: transition pain.
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# [21:40] <Ms2ger> Hixie, man, do you know how long your spec is? This is going to take ages ;)
# [21:40] <Hixie> not as long as one might imagine
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# [21:40] <Ms2ger> $ wc -l source
# [21:40] <Ms2ger> 125073 source
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# [21:42] <annevk> GPHemsley: readable diffs
# [21:42] <GPHemsley> annevk: I can't tell if you're objecting or agreeing.
# [21:43] <Hixie> Ms2ger: how many of those are lines less than 80 characters, that start with one or more spaces, and that are not followed by a blank line or a line with a different indent?
# [21:43] <annevk> GPHemsley: that's the use case for wrapped lines and why I want them
# [21:43] <GPHemsley> ohh
# [21:43] <GPHemsley> what makes a diff unreadable?
# [21:43] <Ms2ger> Hixie, I bet you can write an elisp one-liner to tell me that
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# [21:44] <annevk> GPHemsley: long lines, because it's line-based diffing typically
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# [21:44] <Hixie> Ms2ger: perl one-liner maybe. i don't do elisp. :-)
# [21:44] * Ms2ger gasps
# [21:45] <annevk> GPHemsley: given 80 or so characters it's relatively easy to spot a change, if lines go over 9000 not so much
# [21:45] <GPHemsley> annevk: so the problem is that the lines go off the screen? because one could also make the case that long single-lines make it easier to compare the lines
# [21:45] <Hixie> i wrote a 1000-line multithreaded scheme app once (a command-line lambda calculus interpreter) and then i realised if i was going to do any more scheme or lisp i'd run out of parentheses, so i went to perl where they're optional.
# [21:45] <GPHemsley> (assuming the same wrapped-line diff spans multiple lines)
# [21:46] * GPHemsley wonders how you run out of parentheses
# [21:46] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, well, sure, but you have to search for the difference within the line
# [21:46] <Hixie> GPHemsley: you only get assigned a fixed number when you're born
# [21:46] <Ms2ger> And that's easier for shorter lines
# [21:46] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Well, shoot. I might run out, then. I use them all the time!
# [21:47] <Hixie> gotta be careful with them, man!
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# [21:47] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Well, if you also keep one sentence per line, they're already relatively short.
# [21:47] <Ms2ger> True
# [21:47] <Hixie> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/offline/005.html tells me opera and webkit return "" and gecko returns the Document. Wonder what Gecko returns if two docs are refreshing the same appcache at the same time...
# [21:47] <GPHemsley> But this is all hypothetical now, because I've already begun the wrapping process on this spec
# [21:47] <Ms2ger> The issue is mainly if you put entire paragraphs on one line
# [21:48] <GPHemsley> right
# [21:48] <Hixie> (fwiw, my main use case for wrapping is just that it makes editing easier. same reason why i don't do one-sentence-per-line, which is better for diffs: my editor setup makes it easier to wrap paragraphs than sentences, and it's easier to read regularly wrapped paragraphs than irregular-length sentences.)
# [21:48] <GPHemsley> although these sentences do tend to go very long
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# [21:51] <Ms2ger> If your sentences get too long, use a nice <ol> :)
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# [21:52] <Hixie> i guess IE9 doesn't do appcache
# [21:52] <Hixie> does IE10/
# [21:52] <Hixie> ?
# [21:52] <Hixie> anyone got IE10 who can test http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/offline/005.html for me?
# [21:52] * Ms2ger has some version in a vm
# [21:53] <Hixie> i wonder what the referrer for the manifest itself should be
# [21:53] <Hixie> one of the documents at random, i guess, the first time, and then the manifest the second time, maybe
# [21:53] <Hixie> or just the document both times
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# [21:55] <Ms2ger> FAIL
# [21:55] <Ms2ger> And then ...005.html
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# [21:55] <Ms2ger> Hixie, ^
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# [22:00] <Hixie> cool, thanks
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# [22:01] <Hixie> ap: so looks like two browsers do "" and two browsers use the Document's URL (presumably a random one, or the "first" one, if there are multiple at the same time)
# [22:02] <Hixie> ap: which suggests maybe changing it to the manifest isn't a good move
# [22:02] <Hixie> ap: do you mind if we use the (a) document url?
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# [22:06] <Hixie> ap: i've cc'ed you on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17687
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# [22:11] <GPHemsley> hmm...
# [22:11] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: Anolis seems to randomly insert a blank line with a bunch of whitespace in the middle of my table
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# [22:12] <GPHemsley> oh
# [22:12] <GPHemsley> it's just poorly correcting a tag mismatch
# [22:12] * JohnAlbin is now known as JohnAlbin_extrad
# [22:12] <Ms2ger> Blame html5lib :)
# [22:12] <GPHemsley> ah, heh
# [22:13] * JohnAlbin_extrad is now known as JohnAlbin_zzzzzz
# [22:16] <GPHemsley> Well, that diff is messy and mostly useless.
# [22:16] <GPHemsley> But I swear it's mostly whitespace.
# [22:16] <GPHemsley> A few bits of punctuation and tag clean-up, too.
# [22:16] <GPHemsley> But mostly whitespace.
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# [22:19] * GPHemsley wonders if Alfred HÎnes should really be Alfred Hönes.
# [22:20] <GPHemsley> (It wouldn't be Alfred HŒnes, would it?)
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# [22:21] <GPHemsley> yeah, I think I was right the first time
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# [22:23] <annevk> the name in the doc results in a bunch of results on Google
# [22:23] <annevk> so I think it's correct
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# [22:24] <GPHemsley> yeah, but his ASCII signature and search for the umlaut version suggest otherwise
# [22:25] <annevk> I guess you could email him what he prefers, but I reckon abarth paid attention to that
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# [22:28] <GPHemsley> IDK, the whole list came at once
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# [22:28] <GPHemsley> I get the feeling it was copy&pasted from an e-mail with encoding problems.
# [22:29] <GPHemsley> https://github.com/whatwg/mimesniff/commit/886dd7e31f32f37a4d9a6933b867a72b95555db4
# [22:29] <GPHemsley> more specifically https://github.com/whatwg/mimesniff/commit/886dd7e31f32f37a4d9a6933b867a72b95555db4#L0R1136
# [22:30] <annevk> I doubt that's an encoding problem though, it seems very intentional
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# [22:30] <GPHemsley> I mean an encoding problem in the source material.
# [22:31] <annevk> me too
# [22:32] <GPHemsley> encoding problems are rarely intentional ;)
# [22:32] <annevk> I cannot think of anything that turns ö into Î
# [22:32] <GPHemsley> well, see e.g. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dnsop/current/msg09665.html
# [22:32] <GPHemsley> "From: Alfred Hönes"
# [22:33] <GPHemsley> I'm thinking something turned oe -> Œ for some reason
# [22:33] <GPHemsley> then MacRoman got interpreted as ISO 8859-1 or equivalent
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# [22:46] <Velmont> gsnedders: You said mozilla had a html5 parser lib for embedding when html5lib got too slow?
# [22:48] * GPHemsley wonders if the print template shouldn't up the font size.
# [22:48] <GPHemsley> And maybe reduce the margins...
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# [22:54] * GPHemsley wanders off to proofread
# [22:58] <ap> Hixie: I doubt that there is any compatibility impact from any of the choices in this case. If we are trying to remain compatible however, I'd prefer going with WebKit behavior - we have more engine specific content, and would be much more likely to suffer. People use appcache on iOS quite a bit
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# [23:04] <annevk> dglazkov: getElementById should return Element, not HTMLElement, on ShadowRoot
# [23:05] <annevk> dglazkov: same goes for the ShadowRoot constructor I guess
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# [23:06] <annevk> dglazkov: I guess I should give it some more careful review at some point, need more time :/
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# [23:14] <annevk> oh boy
# [23:14] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Oct/0084.html
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# [23:18] <Velmont> Anyone in Paris for TTWF? Hmm. It is kinda late, need to find food. Should potentially have an IRC-channel for testtwf
# [23:18] <annevk> Velmont: going to TPAC?
# [23:18] <Velmont> annevk: Indeed am, mr :]
# [23:19] <annevk> Velmont: I'm prolly at some Hilton hotel in Lyon around 6PM Sunday
# [23:19] <annevk> unless you know, things go wrong
# [23:19] <Velmont> annevk: I have used some precious space in my rucksack for your t-shirt.
# [23:19] <annevk> awesome!
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# [23:24] <Velmont> sicking: So... Can you think of any obvious missing IDB tests?
# [23:25] <Velmont> I have already written all the obvious stuff I could think of, -- but I should really have a list ready for test the web forward authors.
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# [23:29] <sicking> Velmont: hmmm
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# [23:29] <sicking> Velmont: we do have a lot of tests in our testsuite. But our tests heavily depends on 'yield' so i don't think they would be easy to run in other browsers
# [23:29] <sicking> Velmont: …until they support ES6 that is
# [23:31] <sicking> Velmont: did you write tests for all different cursors?
# [23:32] <sicking> Velmont: i.e. backward/forward/nondupe on both indexes and objectStores
# [23:32] <sicking> Velmont: and that nondupe ones skips dupes as appropriate
# [23:32] <sicking> Velmont: our tests are all here: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/indexedDB/test/unit/
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# [23:33] <sicking> Velmont: oh, and doing mutations as you are using all of these cursors
# [23:33] <Velmont> sicking: I did look at them a bit when I did investigation.
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# [23:33] <Velmont> sicking: I **think** I have for back/forward/nodupe, -- quite a few tests on that. -- I have some for doing mutations as I'm doing most of those cursors...
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# [23:34] <Velmont> sicking: The biggest problem I have is information gathering/overload/etc probably.
# [23:34] <sicking> Velmont: "overload"?
# [23:34] <Velmont> sicking: I started marking up my tests with the assertions they test. But that was tedious and boring.
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# [23:36] <Velmont> overload as in I can't keep the overview over what tests I've written and which ones I've yet to do in my head any more.
# [23:36] <sicking> Velmont: ah
# [23:36] <Velmont> And all the lists I've started creating is half-baked :P -- Hmm. Should probably continue tagging the tests...
# [23:37] <Velmont> sicking: I have some hacky javascript that colours the spec green for the assertions it finds in the tests.
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# [23:38] <sicking> Velmont: tests for what happens after a database or transaction is closed is likely going to find you bugs. I.e. checking that calling various functions works or throws as expected
# [23:38] <sicking> Velmont: OOoh, error handling in general would be great
# [23:38] <Velmont> sicking: Yeah, -- I only have an easy test for that I think.
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# [23:39] <Velmont> (not only one easy test for error handling in general, but that specific close case :P)
# [23:39] <Velmont> sicking: Ahh. And ordering of exceptions ...
# [23:39] <Velmont> sicking: If we only had a spec for that :P
# [23:39] <sicking> Velmont: indeed! :)
# [23:39] <Velmont> sicking: Then I could have someone write the test for it :D
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# [23:41] <Velmont> Hmm. 1) find all the cases where exception ordering matter 2) list them 3) make a helper that does that, and reports what exception fired 4) find commonalities / make a nice list over how you think stuff should behave.
# [23:42] <Velmont> Could always actually have them help with researching it, helping to spec it. Guess that would be cool for someone that is interested.
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# Session Close: Fri Oct 26 00:00:00 2012

The end :)