/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-10-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Oct 28 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <jgraham> Hmm, so why is the index argumetn of HTMLTableElement.insertRow(index) optional?
  4. # [00:00] <GPHemsley> annevk: Would <code> also be appropriate for the "Bytes in ASCII" values?
  5. # [00:01] <jgraham> Does it match IE?
  6. # [00:01] * jgraham doesn't have IE
  7. # [00:01] <jgraham> Apparently it doesn't match anything else
  8. # [00:01] <jgraham> Oh, maybe it matches WebKit
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  12. # [00:07] <GPHemsley> annevk: Why <code title> rather than <code>?
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  19. # [00:16] <stevefaulkner> JonathanNeal: yes, but when it will be implemented across browsers and platforms is anybodies guess > http://html5accessibility.com
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  21. # [00:21] <JonathanNeal> stevefaulkner: that's true, and Firefox only forwards the role right now, but what accessibility software is using ARIA roles like nav?
  22. # [00:22] <JonathanNeal> That's not a remark meant to be contrary, I'm really curious.
  23. # [00:25] <GPHemsley> annevk: So, are you saying it's not necessary to explicitly state that byte-reading should begin with byte 0?
  24. # [00:25] <stevefaulkner> JonathanNeal: all main screen readers support navigation via ARIA landmark roles, here is some data from a almost a year ago http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/landmarks.html support has improved further since then
  25. # [00:26] <annevk> GPHemsley: I'm saying that, and byte 0 is poor wording as one might take it to mean byte 0x00
  26. # [00:26] <annevk> GPHemsley: <code title> to avoid accidental linking
  27. # [00:26] <GPHemsley> annevk: How do I ensure that reading does not begin at some arbitrary point within the resource?
  28. # [00:27] <GPHemsley> annevk: I have not seen <code> be linked or otherwise marked up differently anywhere (unlike, e.g., <span>). In what situation does that happen?
  29. # [00:27] <annevk> GPHemsley: Read from resource into /buffer/, starting at the first byte, and run these steps:, maybe?
  30. # [00:27] <annevk> GPHemsley: <dfn>x</dfn> <code>x</code>
  31. # [00:28] <GPHemsley> that's confusing
  32. # [00:28] <GPHemsley> (the latter)
  33. # [00:28] <annevk> GPHemsley: Did you test Content-Type:image/somethingunsupported with an image whose actual type is image/gif?
  34. # [00:28] <annevk> GPHemsley: <code> links just like <span>
  35. # [00:29] <GPHemsley> I haven't tested anything yet
  36. # [00:30] <GPHemsley> I'm just working with the existing wording at this point
  37. # [00:30] <JonathanNeal> stevefaulkner: have experience with JAWS? I can't get it to read Internet Explorer pages to me.
  38. # [00:30] <annevk> GPHemsley: I'm pretty sure that's why the wording is that way
  39. # [00:31] <annevk> GPHemsley: because it's not sniffed in that case
  40. # [00:32] <stevefaulkner> JonathanNeal: yeah, but could be many reasons, try refreshing the page, also try insert+z to turn virtual cursor off and the same to turn back on after pause, that refreshes JAWS virtual buffer may help...
  41. # [00:33] <GPHemsley> annevk: Frankly, I'm somewhat confused as to why images are sniffed at all. Basically, the algorithm is only sniffing around the arbitrary image types that the UA supports.
  42. # [00:33] <GPHemsley> but I'll look into it further later
  43. # [00:33] <annevk> because people put a PNG on the web with an image/gif media type
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  45. # [00:34] <annevk> or a PNG with a image/x-icon media type (I've done that and took me years to notice because it just worked)
  46. # [00:34] <annevk> and don't try to find logic, that's not the way this works
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  48. # [00:42] <annevk> GPHemsley: anyway, have fun :) bedtime here
  49. # [00:42] <GPHemsley> ah, alright
  50. # [00:42] <GPHemsley> g'night
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  52. # [00:49] <JonathanNeal> JAWS 14 reports <nav> in IE8 as "navigation region", without role="navigation".
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  84. # [03:33] <stevefaulkner> JonathanNeal: yeah JAWS sometime interrogates the DOM directly and applies role mappings if not exposed via API
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  86. # [03:34] <JonathanNeal> stevefaulkner: so is it a matter of being redundant for others?
  87. # [03:36] <stevefaulkner> JonathanNeal: if you want to support AT other than later JAWS then yeah
  88. # [03:36] <JonathanNeal> which AT?
  89. # [03:38] <stevefaulkner> NVDA, WE, VoiceOver, supernova
  90. # [03:41] <stevefaulkner> Orca
  91. # [03:41] <JonathanNeal> VoiceOver gives no distinction between <nav> and <nav role="navigation">
  92. # [03:42] <JonathanNeal> In fact, it gives no distinction between <nav> and <div>. Not in the text prompt and not in the voice prompt.
  93. # [03:46] <stevefaulkner> JonathanNeal: your statement is not helpful without some more info = what version of VoiceOver and OS and what Browser /version
  94. # [03:47] <JonathanNeal> Well, it was as descriptive as yours :) VoiceOver 6, Mountain Lion, Chrome 22.
  95. # [03:48] <JonathanNeal> Same in Safari 6.0.1
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  98. # [03:52] <stevefaulkner> then i suggest you are doing something wrong as in Safari 6 etc thereI get a difference
  99. # [03:52] <JonathanNeal> I'll try it again, with and without role="navigation" on the <nav>
  100. # [03:53] <JonathanNeal> Yea, nothing about role="navigation".
  101. # [03:54] <stevefaulkner> JonathanNeal: will check in morning and get back to you
  102. # [03:55] <GPHemsley> Hixie: What did Web Controls evolve into?
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  105. # [04:04] <GPHemsley> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1140242962&count=1
  106. # [04:08] <GPHemsley> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1144794177&order=-1&count=1
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  108. # [04:11] <GPHemsley> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1154950069&order=-1&count=1
  109. # [04:11] <GPHemsley> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect-20060412
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  112. # [04:23] <GPHemsley> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1170104775&order=-1&count=1
  113. # [04:23] <GPHemsley> "Don't fall into the temptation of discussing the meaning of the word "meaning"."
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  115. # [04:23] <GPHemsley> http://www.w3.org/mid/20070129180343.GG1946@ccil.org
  116. # [04:28] <GPHemsley> Hey, remember that time when Acid3 was a thing?
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  127. # [05:17] <jackolant> This is kind of awkward, but I never seem to understand the relationship between Mozilla, W3C and WhatWG.
  128. # [05:17] <jackolant> All three have specifications and examples and documents and proposals and drafts and standards...
  129. # [05:17] <jackolant> It seems as if Mozilla Developer Network is the "bible" somehow.
  130. # [05:17] <jackolant> Yet it's written as articles, often in a non-formal fashion.
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  132. # [05:41] <Hixie> GPHemsley: evolved into rot. :-(
  133. # [05:42] <Hixie> jackolant: mozilla is a browser vendor, any proposals and drafts are "just" proposals (proprietary, in a way, though maybe not with any more or less buy-in than what i'm about to talk about)
  134. # [05:42] <jackolant> :S
  135. # [05:42] <Hixie> jackolant: w3c, ietf, and whatwg are different standards organisations that work on web techs
  136. # [05:43] <jackolant> I have never heard of IETF before now, and I've read a lot...
  137. # [05:43] <Hixie> jackolant: w3c and whatwg work on higher-level stuff like html, ietf on lower-level stuff like TCP/IP and URLs and DNS
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  139. # [05:43] <Hixie> (afk bbiab, if you want more detail)
  140. # [05:45] <jackolant> Hmm.
  141. # [05:45] <jackolant> Well, basically, whenever I need to look something up, I open MDN which I have bookmarked and search for a keyword.
  142. # [05:45] <jackolant> I get a bunch of results which is usually an article which seems to be in wiki format.
  143. # [05:45] <jackolant> This feels very non-formal.
  144. # [05:45] <jackolant> They also link to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#the-canvas-element
  145. # [05:46] <jackolant> This page in itself feels very slow and strange.
  146. # [05:46] <jackolant> I wish they would lock themselves in for a few weeks non-stop and come out with a Bible with a version number.
  147. # [05:47] <jackolant> And then that's THAT.
  148. # [05:47] <jackolant> It's fixed.
  149. # [05:47] <jackolant> Never touched again.
  150. # [05:47] <jackolant> Then they do the same thing a few months later.
  151. # [05:47] <jackolant> And use all the feedback etc.
  152. # [05:47] <jackolant> And then another Bible is done.
  153. # [05:47] <jackolant> Never to be touched again.
  154. # [05:47] <jackolant> This "living standard" stuff is asking for confusion and problems IMO.
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  157. # [05:50] <Hixie> jackolant: you want us to only release things every two months instead of every two hours?
  158. # [05:50] <Hixie> jackolant: so if we find an error we should wait before we fix it?
  159. # [05:53] <jackolant> Well... my main message with that speech was that there needs to be some "milestones".
  160. # [05:53] <jackolant> Like "stable releases".
  161. # [05:53] <jackolant> And not like many FOSS projects where the stable version is ancient and you are expected to use the very latest bleeding edge one.
  162. # [05:54] <jackolant> Even if you do fix some error immediately, that is still just a specification and the implementators will need to implement it.
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  164. # [05:57] <Hixie> what purpose does a milestone spec serve?
  165. # [05:58] <Hixie> all it would do is mean the people following the spec were following something that was wrong
  166. # [05:58] <Hixie> which would mean the browsers would be even more buggy
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  168. # [06:03] <zewt> <jackolant> Never touched again. <- that smells very IETF to me
  169. # [06:11] <jackolant> The point is that a fixed version would be released.
  170. # [06:11] <jackolant> Without changing the old one.
  171. # [06:12] <Hixie> but of what use would that be?
  172. # [06:12] <jackolant> "If you follow this version, you can be sure that this what you work with."
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  174. # [06:12] <jackolant> There's a lot of old software that has bugs that people depend on...
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  176. # [06:12] <Hixie> oh, i see the misunderstanding
  177. # [06:12] <Hixie> browsers don't implement the specs the way you think
  178. # [06:13] <jackolant> :S
  179. # [06:13] <Hixie> it's not like we release a spec in december and all the browsers release an update that exactly matches the spec
  180. # [06:13] <Hixie> nor do the browsers behave differently for pages written in 2010 than pages written in 2011 (or 2001)
  181. # [06:13] <jackolant> By the way, there needs to be a way to directly get/set/manipulate pixels of images... looping through the imageData in JS is extremely slow.
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  183. # [06:14] <Hixie> yeah, there's work on making gpu-based thingies to do image manipulation
  184. # [06:14] * Hixie hands off to zewt to handle the questions about spec development and releases and goes to watch some TV
  185. # [06:14] <Hixie> bbl :-)
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  187. # [06:15] <jackolant> My browser crashed.
  188. # [06:17] <Hixie> (case in point, no spec has ever said that the browser should crash :-) )
  189. # [06:18] <jackolant> Opera seems to be crashy every other version.
  190. # [06:18] <jackolant> And stable every other version.
  191. # [06:18] <jackolant> I mean "stable" ones.
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  812. # [10:17] <annevk> I think I said this before, but figuring out where domain names are actually defined is extremely hard and thus far I've only found non-host-name RFCs mentioning the trailing dot; the few ancient RFCs with actual syntax definitions do not mention it
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  814. # [10:19] <annevk> You'd hope something as essential as that is nailed down in beautiful prose with lots of tests... but you'd be wrong.
  815. # [10:23] <annevk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_Name_System#Domain_name_syntax does not even mention the trailing dot
  816. # [10:23] <annevk> and none of the RFCs it references do either afaict
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  1097. # [11:19] <Stevef_> JonathanNeal: with this test file https://dl.dropbox.com/u/377471/tests/navtest.html voiceOver+safari 6 announces when entering and leaving <nav> <nav role="navigation"> or <div role="navigation"> as expected as <nav> is exposed as role=navigation. in chrome <nav> is not exposed as role=navigation all esle is the same as safari. when llinks are organised as list then number of items and...
  1098. # [11:19] <Stevef_> ...current position in list is announced, this does not occur in <nav> without list
  1099. # [11:24] <Stevef_> JonathanNeal: so my advice is is if you want more robust support for exposing nav semantic use <nav role="navigation">, if links are organized as a list visually mark them up as a list otherwise the semantics implied by visual organization is lost.
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  1103. # [11:39] <annevk> would be nice if they fixed voice over to just list the number of <a>s in a <nav>
  1104. # [11:40] <hober> annevk: file a bug? :)
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  1106. # [11:42] <annevk> nah, I hunt for bugs that warrant module rewrites :p
  1107. # [11:45] <hober> heh
  1108. # [11:47] <Stevef_> annevk: that may work for simple lists, not so for nested link lists
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  1110. # [11:51] <annevk> hmm, browsers don't even agree whether http://example%2eorg/ should work
  1111. # [11:52] <annevk> Stevef_: sure, you need some heuristics
  1112. # [11:52] <annevk> but you do with lists too, they might be weird after all
  1113. # [11:54] <Stevef_> annevk:what heauristics do you need with lists? the item number and nesting are explicit
  1114. # [11:55] <Ms2ger> Ah, CSSWG F2F meetings are always fun
  1115. # [11:55] <Ms2ger> > jet proposes discussing the travelling salesman problem instead
  1116. # [11:56] <annevk> Stevef_: e.g. if <ol> contains a <div> directly or contains another <ol> directly (developer mistakes)
  1117. # [11:57] <smaug____> uh, waking up early enough for tpac will be hard
  1118. # [11:57] <annevk> will you be there smaug____?
  1119. # [11:58] <smaug____> I will
  1120. # [11:58] <hober> Ms2ger: it's even better live
  1121. # [11:58] <annevk> sweet, I think last time was two years ago and we only briefly said hi :)
  1122. # [11:59] <annevk> CSS is meeting today?
  1123. # [11:59] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  1124. # [11:59] <Ms2ger> And they resolved to get transforms to CR in a few weeks
  1125. # [11:59] <annevk> hober: want to have dinner tonight then? I land at 5PM, should be at the hotel around 6/6:30PM I hope
  1126. # [12:00] * Ms2ger had some fun pointing out that was resolved in February too
  1127. # [12:00] <Stevef_> annevk: <ul><div>... does not effect effect properties of list in accessibility tree
  1128. # [12:00] <annevk> Ms2ger: "and we really mean it!11!"
  1129. # [12:00] <hober> annevk: sure! erin and i aren't staying at the official hotel though.
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  1131. # [12:01] <annevk> hober: I'm staying at the Hilton and I've no idea where anything is :)
  1132. # [12:01] <annevk> hober: guess I'll find out
  1133. # [12:01] <hober> annevk: we're at the roosevelt
  1134. # [12:01] <annevk> Stevef_: and <ul><div><li>test</li></div><li>test</ul> and things like that? anyway, you don't really need to test, was just saying
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  1136. # [12:05] <Stevef_> annevk: I would suggest if the nav element implies a list then it should be implemented as such in browser, so accessibility tree exposes in this way
  1137. # [12:06] <annevk> Stevef_: suggest to me? I'm not representing anyone...
  1138. # [12:07] <Stevef_> annevk: didn't say you were, suggest in the general sense and heuristics should be implemented browser side rather than AT side
  1139. # [12:08] <annevk> I would rather leave that up to implementors, might be that some AT developers prefer a simple interface to innovate upon whereas others have easy access to the underlying browser and can innovate there...
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  1143. # [12:16] <Stevef_> from what i gather from AT developers they want semantics exposed via acc APIs so they don't have to go digging through the DOM driectly, also there is a much better chance of interop if stuff is exposed interop by the lmited number of browser engines as against the greater number of AT
  1144. # [12:17] <Stevef_> exposed uniformly that is
  1145. # [12:22] <Stevef_> and applying heuristics browser side (as friefox does for layout tables) does no preclude innovation on the AT side...
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  1149. # [12:29] <annevk> kinda surprising there's more AT than browsers yet they're generally perceived (at least a while back when I still followed this stuff) as crappy
  1150. # [12:34] <Stevef_> part of the crappiness of AT is due to crappiness of browser accessibility support, but people have overlooked or not understood that in the past and now
  1151. # [12:36] <Stevef_> that is evident when you look at how well NVDA works with Firefox for example goood browser acc implementation = good AT = happy users
  1152. # [12:48] <Stevef_> in contrast to Opera, which does not work in any practical sense with any screen reader and works poorly with screen magnifiers
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  1157. # [13:09] <annevk> matjas: if you read the logs, I'll acknowledge you in the next commit for the domain label separator testing stuff
  1158. # [13:09] <annevk> matjas: in the URL Standard, forgot it in this commit
  1159. # [13:10] <AryehGregor> annevk, are you planning on looking at this anytime soon? I'd like to fix either Gecko or my test, as the case may be. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19555
  1160. # [13:11] <annevk> AryehGregor: I'm not sure how to fix it
  1161. # [13:12] <AryehGregor> annevk, meaning you're not sure what we want, or you're not sure how to spec it?
  1162. # [13:12] <annevk> either I suppose
  1163. # [13:12] <AryehGregor> What's the rationale for not matching what all browsers do?
  1164. # [13:13] <AryehGregor> Granted it's awkward and confusing, but so is the whole API, and jQuery might depend on it.
  1165. # [13:13] <AryehGregor> Plus, we'd be making the API strictly less useful than it already is -- there's no other good way to do what it does (if there's any way at all).
  1166. # [13:14] <annevk> I tried to simplify the method with what I thought I could get away with
  1167. # [13:14] <annevk> I also don't like "implementation specific" ever
  1168. # [13:15] <annevk> I don't mind specifying something else though, but I'm not sure what exactly and how to specify it, in particular the bit about disconnected nodes and order
  1169. # [13:15] <AryehGregor> The idea is just that you might want to order a list of nodes in some fashion that will work for .sort().
  1170. # [13:16] <annevk> sure, but what the fuck does "then the order is based upon order between the root container of each node that is in no container" mean?
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  1173. # [13:18] <AryehGregor> It really means "if you compare two nodes that don't have the same root, the order is determined by comparing the pointers to their respective roots, assuming the pointer to a node remains constant across its lifetime". But the spec doesn't want to say that.
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  1175. # [13:19] <annevk> does root here mean the "node document"?
  1176. # [13:19] <annevk> nodes don't have a root
  1177. # [13:19] <AryehGregor> No, it means the furthest ancestor.
  1178. # [13:19] <annevk> a = document.createElement("a"); what's the root here?
  1179. # [13:19] <AryehGregor> Specifically, the algorithm for comparing two nodes that don't have the same root are: 1) Let A and B be the nodes. 2) While A's parent is not null, set A to its parent. 3) While B's parent is not null, set B to its parent. 4) Return the result of comparing A and B according to some sort function that stably and totally orders all nodes.
  1180. # [13:20] <AryehGregor> annevk, function root(node) { while (node.parentNode) node = node.parentNode; return node; }
  1181. # [13:20] <AryehGregor> I don't know what the current DOM spec calls that, offhand.
  1182. # [13:20] <annevk> might call it root actually, hmm
  1183. # [13:20] <annevk> or furthest inclusive ancestor
  1184. # [13:20] <annevk> maybe
  1185. # [13:21] <AryehGregor> http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-tree-root
  1186. # [13:21] <annevk> so anyway, that sort function being undefined does not strike me as a good solution
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  1188. # [13:21] <annevk> that will trip up people (and I believe it already does)
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  1190. # [13:22] <AryehGregor> It can't meaningfully be defined.
  1191. # [13:22] <AryehGregor> How do you propose to define it?
  1192. # [13:22] <AryehGregor> In practice, Gecko uses pointer comparison, and I'm guessing so do IE/Opera.
  1193. # [13:22] <annevk> dunno, latest created node is following?
  1194. # [13:22] <annevk> but that's kinda awkward too
  1195. # [13:22] <AryehGregor> How do browsers keep track of it?
  1196. # [13:23] <AryehGregor> They're not going to add overhead for the sake of this method.
  1197. # [13:23] <AryehGregor> Also, it's not immediately obvious to me that that's well-defined, although it might be.
  1198. # [13:23] <AryehGregor> (e.g., are there any methods that create multiple nodes at once?)
  1199. # [13:24] <annevk> never mind, it was just a thought
  1200. # [13:24] <Ms2ger> (anything to do with innerhtml?)
  1201. # [13:24] <annevk> I have to pack a few more things and go, maybe add a pointer to the bug about this discussion and just go with the DOM3 behavior for now
  1202. # [13:25] <annevk> it's evil, but I can't think of anything better
  1203. # [13:26] <AryehGregor> Same conclusion I reached.
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  1211. # [14:27] <annevk> AryehGregor: coming to TPAC?
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  1219. # [15:16] <annevk> made it into the plane, close call...
  1220. # [15:16] <annevk> that hour extra didn't really help me
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  1238. # [16:17] <tantek> greetings and good morning
  1239. # [16:18] <tantek> I'm thinking of editing the ContactsAPI in the WHATWG github. Is there any particular process to follow, or do I just create a new repository and go?
  1240. # [16:19] <tantek> It's likely that the new W3C SysApps WG will publish snapshots of the ContactsAPI under the W3C license, but I prefer to edit it in a more open CC0+OWFa state.
  1241. # [16:19] <tantek> And lastly, are there any other WebAPI/ContactsAPI implementers here who would like to co-edit?
  1242. # [16:20] <tantek> this is the source material I'll be starting with: https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI/ContactsAPI
  1243. # [16:21] <tantek> I'll likely leave all the feature request evaluation type stuff in that wiki page, but the goal is to move the API pieces to a specification in a shared location.
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  1259. # [17:29] <Ms2ger> var parent = document.createElementNS("http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml", "html:table")
  1260. # [17:29] <Ms2ger> w(parent.tagName)
  1261. # [17:29] <Ms2ger> Anybody want to guess what you get?
  1262. # [17:30] <Philip`> I bet it will be something that's totally natural and logical and well defined and the same across all implementations
  1263. # [17:31] <Ms2ger> How much would you bet on that?
  1264. # [17:31] <Philip`> Something that is of no value to me
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  1266. # [17:32] <Ms2ger> Dammit
  1267. # [17:32] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@smb-rsycl-02.wifihubtelecom.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1268. # [17:32] <Ms2ger> Because I'd totally win that :)
  1269. # [17:33] <Ms2ger> Boo, only three different results in four browsers
  1270. # [17:34] <Philip`> I've got a 1 Swedish krona coin which I got from a supermarket instead of 10 pence - you could have that, if you want to come and pick it up
  1271. # [17:35] <Ms2ger> I'll come over on the pretense of picking up that coin, and instead kidnap you to work on canvas tests
  1272. # [17:35] <Ms2ger> ... Did I say that out loud?
  1273. # [17:38] * linclark is now known as linclark|afk
  1274. # [17:39] <zcorpan> Philip`: i can take your coin if you're at tpac
  1275. # [17:39] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: I guess not many of us have text-to-speech IRC clients … so not out loud
  1276. # [17:40] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: is it HTML:TABLE per spec?
  1277. # [17:40] <Ms2ger> Yes
  1278. # [17:41] <Ms2ger> (Opera: html:TABLE; Chrome: html:table; IE+Gecko: HTML:TABLE)
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  1280. # [17:42] <zcorpan> uh, i get undefined in opera 12.02 ...??
  1281. # [17:43] <Ms2ger> ??
  1282. # [17:43] <Ms2ger> Works fine on 12.50/1538
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  1285. # [17:44] <Ms2ger> Now, a continuing question...
  1286. # [17:44] <zcorpan> oh, parent
  1287. # [17:44] <zcorpan> parent is unforegable
  1288. # [17:44] <Ms2ger> Oh, yay
  1289. # [17:45] <zcorpan> html:TABLE with a variable name that works
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  1291. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> Now add...
  1292. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> var row = parent.insertRow(-1);
  1293. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> w(row.tagName)
  1294. # [17:47] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: are you writing this down in a proper test case?
  1295. # [17:47] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  1296. # [17:48] <zcorpan> excellent
  1297. # [17:48] <Ms2ger> (Gecko: HTML:TR, non-Gecko: TR)
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  1299. # [17:52] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: nice email
  1300. # [17:52] <Ms2ger> Thanks
  1301. # [17:53] * Ms2ger hates those tests
  1302. # [17:53] <jgraham> I support removing all tests that are wrong
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  1309. # [18:02] <zcorpan> speaking of tests, i'm working a bit on http://simon.html5.org/test/css/css-charset/ (i'll put this somewhere better when there's more coverage)
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  1316. # [18:10] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: annevk: ^
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  1318. # [18:14] * zcorpan finds http://html5.org/temp/cssencoding.txt again
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  1322. # [18:33] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: annevk: btw seems browsers don't bother with the step "1. Let encoding be utf-8."
  1323. # [18:33] <zcorpan> (if you load a css file in a top-level browsing context, seems to use the same rules as text/plain basically)
  1324. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> jgraham, agreed with your reorganization if you use dashes like I did :)
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  1327. # [18:41] <jgraham> Ms2ger: heh
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  1332. # [19:06] <GPHemsley> annevk: I only lowercased the words in the sections I've worked on. (I'm in the process of rewriting the whole thing to be clearer and more integrated.)
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  1337. # [19:18] <GPHemsley> annevk: Same goes for their use in notes.
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  1340. # [19:26] <Yuhong> <Hixie> it's not like we release a spec in december and all the browsers release an update that exactly matches the spec
  1341. # [19:26] <Yuhong> Similar reasons are why I even consider "HTML5" a misnomer even as a buzzword.
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  1367. # [21:20] <hsivonen> where should one get dinner in the TPAC area?
  1368. # [21:20] <Ms2ger> I'd tend to look at the w3c-css-wg archives
  1369. # [21:25] <hsivonen> w3c-css-wg didn't help
  1370. # [21:26] <hsivonen> I guess I'll head to the first place with areasonable menu in Cité international
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  1374. # [21:35] <GPHemsley> Gmail marked a list e-mail from the Chrome team as spam ^_^
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  1378. # [21:45] <Ms2ger> It always does
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  1395. # [22:38] <Hixie> jgraham: re directories for testing, one thing to keep in mind is to make sure there's room in the organisation for tests that check interactions and thus don't fit neatly into categories
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  1416. # Session Close: Mon Oct 29 00:00:00 2012

The end :)