/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-11-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 02 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:13] <GPHemsley> Hixie: If the text/binary algorithm doesn't return text, it treats it as the same as unknown
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  12. # [00:19] <Hixie> that wasn't clear when i was reading it
  13. # [00:19] <Hixie> it didn't seem to return anything
  14. # [00:22] <GPHemsley> Alright, I'll fix that when I edit them all to return values instead
  15. # [00:22] <GPHemsley> Incidentally, I wonder where this data came from, as Gecko doesn't seem to do any of it
  16. # [00:23] <GPHemsley> (which is a very broad statement to make from only 3 simple tests)
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  19. # [00:27] <GPHemsley> e.g. Gecko simply prompts for download when a file is served as unknown/unknown
  20. # [00:28] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Did you put anything at spec.whatwg.org?
  21. # [00:29] <zcorpan> i heared complaints today that the ".spec" part of our urls are useless
  22. # [00:31] <GPHemsley> "PostScript is a registered trademark of Adobe Systems, Inc. Use of
  23. # [00:31] <GPHemsley> the MIME media type "application/postscript" implies recognition of
  24. # [00:31] <GPHemsley> that trademark and all the rights it entails."
  25. # [00:31] * GPHemsley sighs
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  27. # [00:31] <zewt> zcorpan: well, they *are* useless to readers; but that's not who they're for
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  30. # [00:32] <zewt> afaik it's just there to make administration easier
  31. # [00:32] <zcorpan> Hixie: what does it take to kill the ".spec" part?
  32. # [00:33] <zewt> guessing "a reason to" would be the first step :)
  33. # [00:33] <zcorpan> reason being that it's useless and is more annoying to type compared to url.whatwg.org
  34. # [00:34] <zewt> typing out urls? weird :)
  35. # [00:34] <GPHemsley> isn't the better question "how can we make spec.whatwg.org useful?"?
  36. # [00:35] <zcorpan> GPHemsley: i don't mind having spec.whatwg.org be useful but that doesn't change the other thing
  37. # [00:35] <GPHemsley> well, it does well to separate spec-related subdomains from others
  38. # [00:35] <GPHemsley> IMO
  39. # [00:36] <zewt> with w3's URLs being things like "http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/", this seems like a minor complaint, heh
  40. # [00:36] <zcorpan> sure
  41. # [00:36] <zcorpan> what we have now is almost convenient enough to type the whole url
  42. # [00:37] <zcorpan> but can be taken a step further
  43. # [00:37] * GPHemsley is just beginning to realize just how much of a mess the whole MIME type situation is, independent of content sniffing.
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  45. # [00:37] <GPHemsley> it'd be even more convenient to just have url.org
  46. # [00:37] <GPHemsley> but, you know..
  47. # [00:38] <zcorpan> or just url. but let's look at what's reasonable here
  48. # [00:38] <zewt> zcorpan: i don't know if it's worth the time of whoever would have to do it (especially if it's hixie), but i guess whatwg.org/url could just be a redirect to url.spec.whatwg.org
  49. # [00:38] <zcorpan> zewt: that's fair
  50. # [00:38] <zewt> which would make it easier to type, without changing the actual domain organization (which I believe is that way for a reason)
  51. # [00:38] <GPHemsley> zcorpan: Well, that's my point. I think it's perfectly reasonable to have all the specs under spec.whatwg.org
  52. # [00:39] <GPHemsley> It's not like it's url.annevk.spec.whatwg.org or something
  53. # [00:40] <GPHemsley> It's telling you that the WHATWG has a spec that documents URLs
  54. # [00:40] <Hixie> zcorpan: .spec. is needed because there's dozens of other subdomains and i don't want to get confused as to what's a spec and what isn't
  55. # [00:40] <Hixie> zcorpan: anyway, the whole point of these urls is you only ever type them once
  56. # [00:40] <GPHemsley> what if we wanted a spec that was called 'images'?
  57. # [00:40] <GPHemsley> exactly
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  59. # [00:41] <zcorpan> ok
  60. # [00:41] <Hixie> i'm absolutely loving that i type "mi" and my browser autocompletes it to "mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org"
  61. # [00:41] <Hixie> can definitely do the redirects zewt suggests, though
  62. # [00:41] <zewt> heh i gave up on browser autocomplete
  63. # [00:42] <zewt> i type "goog" in FF and it gives me something other than google.com, probably the most common thing i load (at least Chrome gets this one right, though I wonder if that one's a special case)
  64. # [00:42] <Hixie> oh christ, i typoed the directory for spec.whatwg.org _again_
  65. # [00:43] <zcorpan> specs?
  66. # [00:43] * Hixie types "rm -rf whatwg.org" for the second time today, this time even closer to the actualy whatwg directory...
  67. # [00:44] <Hixie> specs?
  68. # [00:44] <zcorpan> spec vs specs appears to be a common mistake with these urls, i think
  69. # [00:44] <Hixie> specs.whatwg.org redirects to spec.whatwg.org; doing the others is possible but more timeconsuming so i haven't done it yet
  70. # [00:45] <zcorpan> ah, nice
  71. # [00:45] <zewt> Hixie: heh, when I have to do something like that, I tend to "mv whatwg.org probably-garbage" first, then double-check that everything is what I think it is, so I never have to type things like "rm -rf important-sounding-directory-name"
  72. # [00:46] <Hixie> i do "ls -alR foo", check the output, them change "ls -alR" to "rm -rf" by editing the command line
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  74. # [00:47] <zewt> does anyone following this HTML template stuff know what "embedding scripts in templates" even means? that seems more like a widget-y feature than a template feature
  75. # [00:48] <zewt> (trying to avoid the noise of asking on the thread when I imagine it's been discussed already)
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  77. # [00:49] <GPHemsley> zewt: Why do you type 'goog' when you can just have whatever you type automatically sent as a search?
  78. # [00:50] <zewt> because firefox is slooow at that
  79. # [00:50] <GPHemsley> ?
  80. # [00:50] <Hixie> fyi http://damowmow.com/temp/whatwg-urls
  81. # [00:50] <zewt> i don't really know why; i suspect it may be trying to DNS my search first, or something silly like that
  82. # [00:50] <GPHemsley> I've been doing it for years without a problem
  83. # [00:50] <GPHemsley> so yeah, perhaps
  84. # [00:50] <zewt> chrome is way faster at that for me
  85. # [00:51] <Hixie> zcorpan: see the url above
  86. # [00:51] <Hixie> zcorpan: hopefully that helps people out
  87. # [00:51] <zcorpan> Hixie: doesn't the first two lines mean that you get redirected twice?
  88. # [00:51] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Shouldn't you have /specs/*, too?
  89. # [00:51] <Hixie> zcorpan: ?
  90. # [00:51] <Hixie> GPHemsley: ?
  91. # [00:51] <GPHemsley> whatwg.org/specs/url
  92. # [00:51] <Hixie> who's typing that when you can type whatwg.org/url
  93. # [00:52] <GPHemsley> people who forget the motto of WHATWG ;)
  94. # [00:52] <zcorpan> Hixie: /principles get redirected to /position-paper which gets redirected to /2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/opera.html
  95. # [00:52] <zcorpan> Hixie: or is apache smart enough to redirect to the final url directly?
  96. # [00:53] <GPHemsley> also, I think that anyone relying on the one-letter URLs has some issue with their autocomplete
  97. # [00:53] <GPHemsley> but whatever
  98. # [00:53] <GPHemsley> I don't mind typing
  99. # [00:53] <Hixie> zcorpan: ah, yeah. whatever. :-)
  100. # [00:54] <GPHemsley> poor fetch
  101. # [00:54] <zcorpan> Hixie: thanks for the redirects
  102. # [00:54] <Hixie> (i added /cors for /fetch as well btw)
  103. # [00:54] <zewt> zcorpan: that's intentional, hixie just wants to stress test the "fetch" algorithm
  104. # [00:54] <Hixie> ok i gotta go. i may or may not do .specs. redirects one day.
  105. # [00:54] <Hixie> probably not soon though.
  106. # [00:54] <GPHemsley> Hixie: is f = fullscreen new or existing?
  107. # [00:54] <Hixie> later
  108. # [00:55] <Hixie> GPHemsley: most of these are new from just now
  109. # [00:55] * GPHemsley recommends fs
  110. # [00:58] <GPHemsley> and f for fetch
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  114. # [01:11] <GPHemsley> hmm
  115. # [01:11] <GPHemsley> it appears that Gecko does not do any sniffing at all—at least, not for GIFs
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  118. # [01:12] <GPHemsley> hmm
  119. # [01:12] <GPHemsley> opera.com just sent me Japanese
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  121. # [01:14] <GPHemsley> ...apparently I had a language cookie set
  122. # [01:14] <GPHemsley> weird
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  125. # [01:18] <GPHemsley> well, this lack of sniffing in no engine but Gecko is gonna make testing/debugging kinda annoying
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  129. # [01:23] <GPHemsley> on the other hand, http://damowmow.com/temp/ is good for testing what happens when the server doesn't send a Content-Type header
  130. # [01:26] <GPHemsley> Hixie: s/write/right/ in your WebVTT comment commit
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  235. # [07:43] <wirepair_> anyone here familiar with firefox's processing of CSP rules?
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  275. # [09:23] <annevk> so people, GitHub is sponsoring WHATWG!
  276. # [09:23] <annevk> we got bronze for life :-)
  277. # [09:24] <annevk> so I guess I'll make a private repo for the info on the twitter accounts in due course
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  279. # [09:24] <annevk> does that make sense?
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  281. # [09:28] <SimonSapin> annevk: I might end up implementing Encoding (or not) in rust rather than python
  282. # [09:28] <annevk> so are we going to use images.whatwg.org?
  283. # [09:28] <SimonSapin> more fun
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  285. # [09:28] <annevk> SimonSapin: fair enough :)
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  288. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> annevk: rockin
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  301. # [09:43] <annevk> MikeSmith: what's the W3C Team archive list?
  302. # [09:43] <annevk> MikeSmith: w3t-archive?
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  306. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah
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  308. # [09:50] <annevk> posted a minor rant there
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  320. # [10:22] <othermaciej> oh man there are some good new memes up
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  328. # [10:33] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2012Nov/0000.html is interesting
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  331. # [10:48] <karlcow> annevk: yup
  332. # [10:49] <smaug____> is hallvord ever here?
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  334. # [10:49] <SimonSapin> annevk: uh, what? Is this ignoring your work while doing the same?
  335. # [10:50] <karlcow> SimonSapin: I don't think so.
  336. # [10:51] <annevk> SimonSapin: if it is, that's fine
  337. # [10:51] <annevk> SimonSapin: curious where we'll end up
  338. # [10:52] <karlcow> yes me too. Same than annevk.
  339. # [10:52] <karlcow> Whatever the outcomes, if in the end there's something which is better, whatever it is.
  340. # [10:52] <karlcow> The communities win.
  341. # [10:56] <SimonSapin> I just spent two hours writing up a 600-words email for www-style …
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  348. # [11:05] <jgraham> smaug____: I think I might have seen hallvord here before
  349. # [11:05] <jgraham> But not often at least
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  357. # [11:16] <konza> Hi all, I have subscribed to the mailing list. Can any one explain how can I contribute to the development. By contributing i mean to write code.. Can any one explain
  358. # [11:17] * Parts: Kolombiken (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
  359. # [11:17] <annevk> konza: what are your interests?
  360. # [11:19] <konza> annevk, I love coding.. :) Could you please explain your question a bit?
  361. # [11:20] <annevk> konza: well WHATWG doesn't do a lot of coding (other than in English), so I was wondering why you joined the mailing list
  362. # [11:20] <annevk> like what you want to contribute to
  363. # [11:21] <konza> annevk, I thought some open source works are also done by this group
  364. # [11:22] <annevk> well yeah, I suppose, some of us work on http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/
  365. # [11:23] <annevk> but I suspect you might be better of contributing to Gecko/WebKit/Chromium if you like to work on code related to what we work on
  366. # [11:24] * Quits: isherman-book (~Adium@173-167-102-230-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  367. # [11:24] <Ms2ger> Let's just make that Gecko :)
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  370. # [11:30] <smaug____> ++Ms2ger
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  372. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> zcorpan, jgraham : so I can add the symlinks for those websocket tests now
  373. # [11:31] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: ok
  374. # [11:31] <zcorpan> thanks
  375. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: including I will clobber the existing echo test that's there with a symlink to the one in the repo
  376. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> which I assume will not break anything
  377. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> for you guys
  378. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> since your tests are relying on the echo service you have there
  379. # [11:33] <zcorpan> the new one presumably works for us. i don't know what the existing one looks like or what uses it currently
  380. # [11:33] <jgraham> I think our echo is probably the default
  381. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  382. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> yeah it's likely the default I guess
  383. # [11:33] <jgraham> I just copied all the files we had in our handler directory that seemd to be referenced
  384. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> hai
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  387. # [11:38] <zcorpan> "can i get two weeks?" "NO."
  388. # [11:39] <konza> annevk, can you please give the full url of gecko
  389. # [11:40] <annevk> konza: http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/contribute/ I suppose
  390. # [11:40] <konza> annevk, thanks
  391. # [11:41] <konza> annevk, pm?
  392. # [11:42] <annevk> sure
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  394. # [11:45] <hsivonen> http://whatcanidoformozilla.org/
  395. # [11:46] <konza> thanks hsivonen
  396. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> zcorpan, jgraham : OK all those handlers should now be reachable at http://w3c-test.org/ws
  397. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> if not lemme know
  398. # [11:54] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: did you mean ws://w3c-test.org/ ?
  399. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> yeah
  400. # [11:54] <zcorpan> ok, excellent
  401. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> well ws: instead of http:
  402. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> you want them at the root? I thought you had changed your tests to look for them under /ws
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  405. # [11:57] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: my error console for http://w3c-test.org/webapps/WebSockets/tests/submissions/Opera/interfaces/WebSocket/send/006.html says "WebSocket handshake failure, invalid response code '404'. "
  406. # [11:57] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: no the tests have /ws/ already, i didn't know that was changed
  407. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> ok will try to take a look at the server logs
  408. # [12:02] <zcorpan> q?
  409. # [12:02] <zcorpan> oops
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  412. # [12:05] <annevk> so I walked in the HTML WG meeting to get some AC power
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  414. # [12:05] <annevk> hsivonen just suggested to put everything "at risk" and undefine all the things when the time comes (kind of)
  415. # [12:08] <hsivonen> I asked what's the procedural reason not to
  416. # [12:08] <hsivonen> I didn't really suggest it
  417. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ietf-w3c/2012Sep/thread.html#msg4
  418. # [12:09] * MikeSmith ah wait that's not it
  419. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18975
  420. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18975 registerContentHanlder and registerProtocolHandler open huge security and privacy holes (bug raised by Larry Masinter)
  421. # [12:10] <smaug____> annevk: sounds like a fun meeting
  422. # [12:10] <smaug____> apparently discussions about the process ?
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  424. # [12:11] <annevk> it's about CR exit criteria
  425. # [12:11] <annevk> since most of HTML is not interoperable if you look at the details, they're in kind of a fit
  426. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> ah wrong channel
  427. # [12:11] <annevk> so they're looking for loopholes
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  429. # [12:11] <annevk> MikeSmith: sorry for the distraction :)
  430. # [12:12] * jgraham thinks it is a bad idea to point out that we will not get interoperability on navigation
  431. # [12:12] <Ms2ger> Why's that?
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  434. # [12:13] <jgraham> Or maybe I should just say that we will never get two complete implementations
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  461. # [13:08] <karlcow> hmmm I had a parse error for Robin's email
  462. # [13:08] <karlcow> "or more precisely for a way of specifying isolates more powerful than <bdi> one possible implementation of which could rely on the dir attribute."
  463. # [13:08] <karlcow> — http://www.w3.org/mid/5093A450.5000107@w3.org
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  482. # [14:09] <karlcow> https://tech.dropbox.com/2012/10/caching-in-theory-and-practice/
  483. # [14:15] <annevk> "it's a waste of time" "any other comments?"
  484. # [14:15] <annevk> this meeting is hilarious
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  508. # [14:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: this xml-stylesheet is x3d all over again
  509. # [15:00] <hsivonen> you notes trigger concern
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  523. # [15:24] <annevk> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=1123
  524. # [15:24] <annevk> wtf
  525. # [15:25] <annevk> all the rejected errata refers to each other for being rejected and nothing then addresses the problems
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  527. # [15:25] <annevk> and how and http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1123 be the latest RFC for host names anyway?
  528. # [15:26] <annevk> and just look at the patchwork that is http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1035
  529. # [15:27] <annevk> you can't just go in and get an understanding of how this works
  530. # [15:27] <annevk> that's no documentation of the web architecture if you ask me
  531. # [15:27] <karlcow> I guess because nobody has been masochistic enough to touch hostnames spec ;)
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  534. # [15:28] <annevk> pussies
  535. # [15:29] <karlcow> macho ;)
  536. # [15:29] <annevk> pew pew
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  538. # [15:32] <hober> Scooby Doo: Special (Process) Victims Unit
  539. # [15:32] <hober> *dun dun*
  540. # [15:33] <darobin> at the end of the day we'll find out that it was just a dishonest land developer dressing up a Hixie to scare the locals
  541. # [15:33] <darobin> into selling their land
  542. # [15:35] <karlcow> :D
  543. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> heh
  544. # [15:36] <GPHemsley> :)
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  565. # [16:16] * karlcow found an oldie http://www.snee.com/xml/a-href.html
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  568. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> karlcow: interesting
  569. # [16:20] <karlcow> It was a link in my today 10 years old blog post. It survived.
  570. # [16:21] <karlcow> It's kind of encouraging some of the things survive
  571. # [16:21] <karlcow> That was also the time where designers were experimenting with small icons http://www.antipixel.com/blog/archives/2002/10/22/steal_these_buttons.html
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  575. # [16:27] <hsivonen> wow. I didn't realize it has been ten years alrady
  576. # [16:28] * abstractj|gump is now known as abstractj|away
  577. # [16:28] <hsivonen> also, when did you last see a mention of amphetadesk?
  578. # [16:28] <karlcow> :)
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  580. # [16:36] <annevk> Hixie: it would be nice if http://dev.w3.org/html5/webvtt/ had Bugzilla links
  581. # [16:36] <annevk> Hixie: one instance of "WebVTT comments" is not linked
  582. # [16:37] <annevk> Hixie: the same for "ASCII digits"
  583. # [16:38] <annevk> Hixie: should also use the Encoding Standard
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  593. # [17:05] * karlcow recommends annevk to check out the source code of Arena beta-3, the file HTParse.h
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  595. # [17:07] <karlcow> "Canonicalization of URIs is a difficult job" — https://gist.github.com/2569ea81038d5e98a7b2
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  598. # [17:07] <karlcow> I put the file on gist
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  616. # [17:34] <annevk> my parser handles those scenarios, not entirely in the same way, but then that browser is old :)
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  619. # [17:36] <annevk> GPHemsley: you might want to look at MIME type usage in http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/ too
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  621. # [17:37] <annevk> GPHemsley: and I guess I might use some of the terminology you introduced, such as XML type
  622. # [17:38] <annevk> gotta go
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  650. # [18:04] <GPHemsley> annevk: I don't see anything related to sniffing, per se, in XHR. But if there's something you want me to add to mimesniff to make your XHR life easier, let me know.
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  661. # [18:12] <smaug____> hsivonen: ping
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  712. # [19:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: what do you mean? (re xml-stylesheet and "you notes trigger concern")
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  715. # [19:49] <GPHemsley> Hixie: There are points in HTML were MIME sniffing is explicitly encouraged/required, correct?
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  717. # [19:50] <GPHemsley> Hixie: And, if so, can you provide me with a list of where that occurs (or point me to one)?
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  730. # [20:32] <Hixie> GPHemsley: encouraged of whom? implementors?
  731. # [20:32] <Hixie> GPHemsley: mentions of MIME Sniff can be found by searching for [MIMESNIFF] then clicking the <dfn> links that those are next to
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  755. # [21:54] <Ms2ger> Anne might be interested in http://docs.sqlalchemy.org/en/rel_0_7/core/engines.html#sqlite
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  758. # [22:01] <Hixie> i'm amused at the meme with the caption "It seems that the people who most enjoy complaining about W3C Process are those who most enjoy Process discussions", but it seems incorrect
  759. # [22:01] <Hixie> since i enjoy complaining about w3c process, and i hate the process discussions so much i don't even turn up to tpac
  760. # [22:05] <say2joe> lol
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  762. # [22:06] <say2joe> wish i lived in France
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  811. # [23:33] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Well, the lists of mentions are quite long. I was hoping for you to narrow it down a little, since you're more familiar with exactly what the spec says. But yes, where implementors are encouraged to proactively sniff.
  812. # [23:34] <Hixie> the lists arne't long, it's like three areas
  813. # [23:35] <Hixie> ignore the <dfn>Content-Type metadata</dfn>, that's just references to Content-Type, not sniffing
  814. # [23:36] <GPHemsley> well, the lists only work on the one-page version, which my computer seems to hate
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  816. # [23:36] <GPHemsley> which makes me afraid to go fishing for information directly
  817. # [23:37] <GPHemsley> oh, OK, I see
  818. # [23:37] <GPHemsley> I was working from memory when I asked
  819. # [23:38] <GPHemsley> and it was indeed only the content-type link that was long
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  824. # [23:51] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Am I right in my understanding that the type SHOULD always be sniffed for resources called by <img> and <object>?
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  826. # [23:55] <GPHemsley> Hixie: And the same for <link> (e.g. for a shortcut icon)?
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  829. # [23:57] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Also, do you define precisely what an "image" is?
  830. # Session Close: Sat Nov 03 00:00:01 2012

The end :)