/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-11-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Nov 04 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:21] <gsnedders> jgraham: It's called "opera critic"? I thought it was just "critic"?
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  44. # [03:09] * GPHemsley grumbles something about fonts that annevk already grumbled a year and a half ago.
  45. # [03:10] <GPHemsley> Does anyone know of any images that do not use an "image/" MIME type?
  46. # [03:10] <GPHemsley> (Perhaps because they are part of an "application/" container, à la "application/ogg"?)
  47. # [03:15] <Hixie> application/xml ?
  48. # [03:15] <GPHemsley> Hixie: What images are in that format?
  49. # [03:15] <Hixie> SVG?
  50. # [03:16] <GPHemsley> I'm under the impression that uses image/svg+xml
  51. # [03:16] <Hixie> it uses many things
  52. # [03:16] <GPHemsley> But it doesn't really matter, because XML MIME types don't get sniffed.
  53. # [03:16] <Hixie> application/pdf?
  54. # [03:16] <Hixie> depends what you mean by "image", i guess
  55. # [03:16] <GPHemsley> yeah, I suppose
  56. # [03:16] <Hixie> ascii art images can be sent as text/plain
  57. # [03:16] <GPHemsley> heh
  58. # [03:16] <GPHemsley> probably not that
  59. # [03:17] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Have a look at mimesniff when you get a chance. I've cleaned most of it up, I think.
  60. # [03:17] <Hixie> remind me monday
  61. # [03:18] <GPHemsley> alright
  62. # [03:18] <GPHemsley> hopefully by then "most" will be closer to "all"
  63. # [03:18] <Hixie> cool :-)
  64. # [03:18] <Hixie> i wish html was easy like that :-P
  65. # [03:18] <GPHemsley> (I still have to deal with sections 7.2 and 7.7.)
  66. # [03:18] <GPHemsley> Yeah, I don't know how you do it
  67. # [03:19] <Hixie> i get paid
  68. # [03:19] <GPHemsley> ah, there's that
  69. # [03:19] * GPHemsley doesn't
  70. # [03:19] <Hixie> :-)
  71. # [03:19] <GPHemsley> (by anybody)
  72. # [03:19] <GPHemsley> (for anything)
  73. # [03:20] <annevk> abarth: http://code.google.com/p/google-url/issues/detail?id=32 not the best report, but there you go
  74. # [03:20] <Hixie> GPHemsley: you at school/university, or just unemployed?
  75. # [03:20] <GPHemsley> just unemployed at the moment
  76. # [03:21] <GPHemsley> I left school at the end of spring semester, and how long unemployment lasts dictates whether I go back to school to do something else.
  77. # [03:21] <GPHemsley> So, you know, if you've got money to throw at me... ;)
  78. # [03:21] <Hixie> i wish
  79. # [03:23] <Hixie> (highly recommend higher education if you do want a job at a company like google, btw)
  80. # [03:24] <GPHemsley> I've got a Bachelor's and a year of grad school. How much does that buy me?
  81. # [03:24] <zewt> heh, when we were hiring, people with more than a CS only made me think "did they stay in school longer because they couldn't find a job?"
  82. # [03:24] <Hixie> GPHemsley: more than i have :-)
  83. # [03:25] <GPHemsley> Well, the offer for an offer is on the table. I'm enjoying this work, but it'd sure be nice to get paid while I do it.
  84. # [03:25] <GPHemsley> Feel free to spread that around. ;)
  85. # [03:26] <GPHemsley> In the meantime, I'm gonna go watch TV.
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  91. # [04:06] <annevk> hmm
  92. # [04:06] <annevk> so Internet Explorer does not include the leading slash in pathname
  93. # [04:08] <annevk> and between Internet Explorer 6 and 7 they swapped \ for / in file: URLs
  94. # [04:08] <annevk> and the Windows drive thing is [a-z][:|
  95. # [04:08] <annevk> ]
  96. # [04:08] <annevk> with | being converted to :
  97. # [04:08] <annevk> oh, also [A-Z] and it's case-sensitive
  98. # [04:08] <annevk> not too bad I guess
  99. # [04:10] <annevk> http://netrenderer.com/ ++
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  103. # [05:09] <MikeSmith> oh wow
  104. # [05:09] <MikeSmith> didn't know about http://netrenderer.com/
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  123. # [08:19] <jgraham> gsnedders: Without checking, I think the internal release email called it "the Opera Critic", and it says "Opera Critic" at the top of the page
  124. # [08:19] <jgraham> But I dunno. jl never calls it that
  125. # [08:20] <asmodai> Cute name that way
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  132. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> was there some point within the last couple years when Hixie added more named character references?
  133. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> e.g., &dollar; and &minus; ?
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  135. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> if now find http://html5.org/r/5557 but that's not what I'm looking for
  136. # [09:55] <annevk> Hixie imports the references from whatever the MathML comes up with
  137. # [09:56] <annevk> Math WG*
  138. # [09:56] <annevk> so if they make changes, those would affect HTML
  139. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> ok yeah I remember that now
  140. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> so I wonder if they made some changes upstream
  141. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> I'm asking because the validator source is missing some
  142. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> I guess it might make sense for the the part of the validator source that handles this to be imported and generated from the Math WG source
  143. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> I am pretty sure Henri already is generating the source
  144. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> but whatever script he's using to do that is not in the repo
  145. # [10:01] <annevk> weird that the related bug is marked NEEDSINFO while it was in fact fixed (for the multi-code point entities)
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  147. # [10:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: I guess I'd ask hsivonen then
  148. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> yeah
  149. # [10:04] * Ms2ger finds http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/entities.json
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  152. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  153. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> which reminds me Hixie must have some other list that he uses along with the upstream Math source
  154. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> but the Match source doesn't know anything about semicolon-less character references
  155. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> but which that entities.json is aware of
  156. # [10:10] <annevk> So masinter mentioned that Dave Thaler from Microsoft registered a whole bunch of URI schemes as provisional
  157. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> looking at the cvs log for http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007/htmlmathml-f.ent I see the only substantive change made to it was in February 2010 when David added NotGreaterFullEqual to it
  158. # [10:10] <annevk> http://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes.html is a whole lot more up to date now
  159. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah he told me that too
  160. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> in fact that was very recent I think
  161. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> I vaguely remember seeing mail about it
  162. # [10:14] <asmodai> morning folks
  163. # [10:15] <Ms2ger> Morning
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  165. # [10:16] <annevk> Ms2ger: http://docs.sqlalchemy.org/en/rel_0_7/core/engines.html#database-urls - the problem here is that browsers only treat certain schemes as having that syntax
  166. # [10:17] <annevk> Ms2ger: I'm not sure if we can reconcile that somehow
  167. # [10:17] <Ms2ger> Dunno if we need to
  168. # [10:17] <annevk> Ms2ger: I guess it would be nice if we could so these things "would just work" in JavaScript
  169. # [10:17] <annevk> Apart from this another uncertain bit seems to be whether <query> needs to be parsed separately or not for non-relative schemes
  170. # [10:18] <asmodai> Did the definition of "talisman" to mean essentially a nop start with the HTML specs or was it already in tech use before? I never saw it before until I encountered it in relation to xmlns.
  171. # [10:18] <annevk> Apparently some UAs treat about:blank?test as about:blank and others do not
  172. # [10:19] <annevk> Chrome/Safari don't; Opera/Gecko do
  173. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> asmodai: Is that used in the current HTML spec?
  174. # [10:20] <asmodai> I encountered in various places, e.g. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/html:xmlns
  175. # [10:20] * asmodai checks standards
  176. # [10:21] <annevk> asmodai: "tech use" dunno, as far as web specs I read goes, I believe Hixie coined it
  177. # [10:21] <asmodai> annevk: Ah, that might account for it.
  178. # [10:21] <annevk> and it's still there in the global attributes section
  179. # [10:21] <asmodai> MikeSmith: Doesn't seem to be in any specs as far as I can quickly see, mostly talks about standards
  180. # [10:21] <asmodai> annevk: I like the term though.
  181. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> annevk: it's just used about xmlns?
  182. # [10:22] * MikeSmith reads the global attributes section
  183. # [10:22] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah
  184. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> ok
  185. # [10:22] <asmodai> annevk: Ah yes, see it now
  186. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> asmodai: it's just a word :) there's other stuff more worthy of hate
  187. # [10:23] <asmodai> MikeSmith: Haha, I am not hating, I like it. :)
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  189. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> ah
  190. # [10:23] <asmodai> MikeSmith: Just hadn't encountered it before and wondered if I missed some tech terminology :)
  191. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> somehow I misread your "like" as "hate"
  192. # [10:24] <annevk> Ms2ger: maybe if it keeps coming up we could make the "relative scheme" list dynamic from a JS perspective
  193. # [10:24] <annevk> Ms2ger: not entirely sure if that's desirable though
  194. # [10:24] <asmodai> MikeSmith: *grin* daijoubu yo! :D
  195. # [10:24] <asmodai> I encountered it because I am currently messing with SVG inline in HTML 5
  196. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> asmodai: I think it was used before in that context, but can't really recall
  197. # [10:25] <annevk> we used to have a funny thing for the / in <img/> too, but that got removed
  198. # [10:25] <asmodai> MikeSmith: For a parsing/tokenizing PoV it's clearer than calling it a nop.
  199. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> yeah
  200. # [10:26] <annevk> "Then, if the element is one of the void elements, then there may be a single U+002F SOLIDUS character. This character has no effect except to appease the markup gods. As this character is therefore just a symbol of faith, atheists should omit it."
  201. # [10:26] <asmodai> rofl
  202. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> annevk: so is it preferable to have about:blank?test treated as about:blank or it as case where it really doesn't matter as long as UAs just treat it the same?
  203. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> hah yeah the "atheists should omit it" bit
  204. # [10:27] <asmodai> annevk: I can see why that got removed, but dang, that's plain brilliant.
  205. # [10:27] <annevk> MikeSmith: Chrome WONTFIXED their bug on it (no compat concerns), Gecko has an about:* page that uses the query string functionality, and I cannot test Internet Explorer
  206. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> ok
  207. # [10:28] <annevk> MikeSmith: It might be nice to support it so about:unicorn can support a color parameter
  208. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> heh
  209. # [10:29] <annevk> but it does not make sense for javascript: and data:
  210. # [10:29] <asmodai> annevk: I'd propose Valve's balloonicorn: http://store.valvesoftware.com/product_images/main_images/balloonicorn_main_01.png
  211. # [10:29] <asmodai> :)
  212. # [10:29] <annevk> but they could be special cased in either the API or elsewhere
  213. # [10:30] <annevk> asmodai: haha; I need to find a public domain unicorn or create one...
  214. # [10:30] <annevk> asmodai: preferably SVG
  215. # [10:30] <asmodai> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Invisible_Pink_Unicorn.svg
  216. # [10:31] <annevk> heh, just found the same :)
  217. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> ACID4 should be unicorn-based
  218. # [10:31] <asmodai> annevk: :D
  219. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> btw I found Henri's named-character-references generator code
  220. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> http://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/file/default/translator-src/nu/validator/htmlparser/generator/GenerateNamedCharacters.java#l40
  221. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> uses a regexp to parse the table in the spec
  222. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> not sure it's worth switching it to do elsewise so I guess I'll just re-run it and see what I get
  223. # [10:34] <annevk> so yeah, with some cleanup I think we could use that SVG file
  224. # [10:35] <annevk> it's about time the platform has native unicorn support
  225. # [10:36] <asmodai> lol
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  228. # [10:48] <asmodai> annevk: I predict bug reports demanding the unicorn be replaced by sharks with lasers
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  235. # [11:09] <annevk> http://html5.org/temp/unicorn.svg
  236. # [11:10] <annevk> I wonder if there's some tool that clean up those coordinates
  237. # [11:10] <annevk> can*
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  241. # [11:20] <asmodai> Hahaha
  242. # [11:20] <asmodai> Awesome Anne
  243. # [11:21] <asmodai> annevk: https://github.com/RazrFalcon/SVGCleaner ?
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  245. # [11:25] <annevk> asmodai: can you maybe run that? I don't have the right OS
  246. # [11:26] <annevk> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6694 is for about it seems
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  248. # [11:27] <annevk> but it does not deal with e.g. about:BL%41NK not working
  249. # [11:27] <annevk> so I guess it's not useful
  250. # [11:27] <asmodai> annevk: Neither do I at the moment >_<
  251. # [11:27] <asmodai> need to reinstall this entire box, only have console access on FreeBSD atm
  252. # [11:27] <asmodai> and no VM around either
  253. # [11:28] <annevk> "The about:blank URI references a blank page." oh my what an idiots
  254. # [11:28] <annevk> they removed everything that was useful about that spec
  255. # [11:28] <annevk> asmodai: no worries, this can wait
  256. # [11:28] <annevk> should probably do host parsing first anyway before adding easter eggs
  257. # [11:28] <asmodai> *grin*
  258. # [11:28] <annevk> (and defining schemes in general)
  259. # [11:29] <asmodai> annevk: When they say blank page, do they mean a blank HTML page?
  260. # [11:29] <annevk> well the first definition was a resource whose MIME type is text/html and encoding is utf-8 and consists of the empty string
  261. # [11:30] <annevk> that's the one you want
  262. # [11:30] <annevk> now all that is undefined
  263. # [11:30] <asmodai> Yea
  264. # [11:30] <asmodai> because blank could also mean simply an initialized panel with no content whatsoever
  265. # [11:30] <asmodai> panel as in UI element
  266. # [11:34] <asmodai> You'd think people would've learnt from the past and just be explicit about stuff like this in specs.
  267. # [11:37] <annevk> it was explicit and then it was removed
  268. # [11:38] <annevk> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-holsten-about-uri-scheme-06#section-5.1.1
  269. # [11:39] <asmodai> annevk: I wonder what people have against explicitly defininf it.
  270. # [11:39] <asmodai> defining
  271. # [11:39] <asmodai> Then again, the IETF also isn't what it used to be since politics entered it
  272. # [11:43] <annevk> dunno either, I'm not really interested in following their mailing lists as I usually end up point-by-point sniping rather than getting somewhere
  273. # [11:44] <annevk> Lachy's older draft had the same problem btw in theoretically working with percent-escaped bytes
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  275. # [11:59] <asmodai> annevk: having done compiler work, I just know how annoying a spec is that leaves stuff hanging and dangling. It's like people don't like clarity at times
  276. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-642-32759-9_26 "Reachability Analysis of the HTML5 Parser Specification and Its Application to Compatibility Testing"
  277. # [12:15] <asmodai> hot dang
  278. # [12:15] <asmodai> http://www.audiotool.com/app
  279. # [12:15] <asmodai> that's some impressive use of HTML5
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  290. # [12:46] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, so did they file bugs? :)
  291. # [12:47] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: one of the authors posted a question to the whatwg list about the adoption-agency algorithm
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  298. # [13:22] <annevk42> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss/current/msg05435.html "in reality no sane software developer should rely on the semantics of any particular “about” token"
  299. # [13:22] <annevk42> Tim flipping bozo bits again
  300. # [13:23] <annevk42> I'm not sure why I
  301. # [13:23] <annevk42> 'm going through the archives, but it seemed potentially interesting to find out why they fucked up so badly
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  305. # [13:30] <annevk42> It seems it was removed somewhere around http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss/current/msg03120.html when it was made a WG item but there's no mention of why
  306. # [13:37] <annevk42> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss/current/msg02863.html does not mention it either
  307. # [13:38] <annevk42> but does seem to indicate why Lachy gave up on them
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  310. # [14:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: Interesting, given nowhere else on github does it call it that!
  311. # [14:02] <gsnedders> My monitor is… clicking.
  312. # [14:08] <Philip`_> MikeSmith: About semicolon-less character references: are you looking for a file like http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/entities-legacy.inc ?
  313. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> Hey Philip`!
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  318. # [14:48] <[tm]> Philip`_: yeah, that (about character references)
  319. # [14:48] <[tm]> thanks
  320. # [14:50] <[tm]> though I've since figured out there's no bug in Henri's code
  321. # [14:50] <[tm]> I was just misunderstanding it
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  324. # [15:34] * GPHemsley wonders whether such a long document was required just to say that "about:blank" is blank.
  325. # [15:35] <GPHemsley> s/whether/why/, if you like
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  327. # [15:36] <Ms2ger> "IETF"
  328. # [15:43] <[tm]> ha I see the author of the about blank rfc is that "sm" dude
  329. # [15:43] <[tm]> no wonder it's DOA
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  337. # [16:21] <Hixie> annevk42: i think the use of "talisman" in the context of /> is actually hsivonen's, i would have called it something far less eloquent
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  342. # [16:42] <[tm]> +1 to hsivonen way with words
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  344. # [16:48] <asmodai> Ah, so hsivonen then?
  345. # [16:49] <asmodai> Still awesome.
  346. # [16:49] <asmodai> And I still have a tab open with that unicorn of anne's, heh
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  358. # [17:23] <jgraham> So anyone at a university want to steal us a copy of the HTML5 testing paper?
  359. # [17:24] <charl> jgraham: will any university do?
  360. # [17:24] <jgraham> charl: Probably
  361. # [17:24] <charl> jgraham: html5 testing paper? what/where's that?
  362. # [17:24] <jgraham> Any one with a subscription to springer publications at least
  363. # [17:24] <charl> ah, ok
  364. # [17:25] <jgraham> http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-642-32759-9_26
  365. # [17:25] <charl> i work at a university but i don't know about a subscription to that
  366. # [17:25] <Ms2ger> No access here either
  367. # [17:25] <jgraham> It's almost liek they don't want people reading their tuff
  368. # [17:25] <jgraham> *stuff
  369. # [17:26] <zewt> seems to me that if you're testing stuff and then not letting anyone see the results, motives come into question, heh
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  371. # [17:26] <charl> the authors appear to be japanese?
  372. # [17:26] <zewt> since "improving the quality of things" plainly isn't the top priority, and if that's not the priority of testing ...
  373. # [17:27] <charl> looks more like somebody did research for their own benefit, not for the benefit of the web community
  374. # [17:31] <jgraham> Well sure, to a certain extent the point of doing research if you are an academic is that other academics will notice and give you a job where you can keep doing research
  375. # [17:32] <jgraham> There is more to it than that of course, but the current - much reviled - publication system is only really good for that purpose
  376. # [17:32] <charl> that is true but if the research doesn't have improvement in some way as a consequence, what's the point?
  377. # [17:33] <Ms2ger> Funding
  378. # [17:33] <charl> lol yeah
  379. # [17:33] <charl> pretty-much
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  402. # [18:57] <Philip`_> jgraham: Apparently I'm still able to steal papers from there
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  405. # [19:10] <SimonSapin> annevk: "All but two single-byte encodings have a unique index." What does that mean?
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  424. # [20:06] <annevk42> SimonSapin: iso-8859-8 and iso-8859-8-i (iirc) have an identical index
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  427. # [20:09] <odinho_> 05:13 < MikeSmith> didn't know about http://netrenderer.com/ < saved my bun for many years :P
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  429. # [20:09] <odinho_> Although in the beginning I never remebered the name, so I always had to re-find it again.
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  433. # [20:33] <asmodai> annevk42: Still have that unicorn open in a tab, remains awesome :)
  434. # [20:34] <annevk42> heh
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  459. # [22:10] <GPHemsley> The mimesniff rewrite is almost unofficially complete.
  460. # [22:11] <GPHemsley> Reviews welcome as I tie up loose ends.
  461. # [22:11] <GPHemsley> (Then we can get to the real bug fixinging.)
  462. # [22:11] <GPHemsley> ing
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  465. # [22:24] <aleray> hi, i'm using html5lib and lxml to tidy some html content. For some reason, when I parse the content into a tree, it escapes the colons from xmlns attributes
  466. # [22:24] <aleray> eg. xmlnsU0003Adct="http://purl.org/dc/terms/"
  467. # [22:25] <aleray> why does it do it and how can I avoid this?
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  470. # [22:29] <annevk> prolly because you parse HTML and use an XML-aware tree
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  472. # [22:29] <aleray> annevk, thanks. what do you advise instead?
  473. # [22:29] <annevk> I guess you should use some tree structure that can deal with xmlns:dct
  474. # [22:29] <annevk> (with xmlns:dct not being in the XMLNS namespace, as is the case for HTML content)
  475. # [22:30] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
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  477. # [22:32] <aleray> annevk, what are the other tree structures possible?
  478. # [22:33] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  479. # [22:33] <annevk> maybe gsnedders can help you out there, it's been ages...
  480. # [22:33] <aleray> ok. Just foudn that http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12253791/html5lib-with-lxml-treebuilder-doesnt-parse-namespaces-correctly
  481. # [22:33] <aleray> reading...
  482. # [22:34] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@89-92-170-10.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr)
  483. # [22:36] <annevk> the main problem though is using xmlns attributes in text/html content, that's just bogus
  484. # [22:37] <aleray> I'm gonna work with real webpages so that might happen unfortunatly
  485. # [22:41] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@89-92-170-10.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr) (Quit: othermaciej)
  486. # [22:41] <aleray> annevk, I basically want to write a rdfa spider. What would you advise regarding malformed html + rdfa pages?
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  497. # [23:06] * nrth is now known as irfaN
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  502. # [23:36] <GPHemsley> Does HTML have a stance on the Accept-Charset header?
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  506. # Session Close: Mon Nov 05 00:00:00 2012

The end :)