/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-11-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 07 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <MikeSmith> pretty much all of the people in this discussion are respectful at least. except for one
  4. # [00:00] * Joins: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@airbears-136-152-148-18.AirBears.Berkeley.EDU)
  5. # [00:00] <MikeSmith> if not productive
  6. # [00:00] <Hixie> given that you've quoted multiple people already...
  7. # [00:01] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@119.161.158.96) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  8. # [00:01] <MikeSmith> Hixie: they have an empty chair in the room that they're referring to as "the WHATWG ghost"
  9. # [00:01] <MikeSmith> can't make this stuff up
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  11. # [00:01] <Hixie> MikeSmith: and you say they're all being respectful? :-)
  12. # [00:02] <MikeSmith> heh
  13. # [00:02] <MikeSmith> at least that's what I think they are referring to
  14. # [00:02] * Hixie ponders roc's thing about how to transfer images across postMessage()
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  17. # [00:03] <Hixie> having HTMLImageElement transfer into an Image, and transfer back into an HTMLImageElement, is one option
  18. # [00:03] <MikeSmith> it's possible that they have collectively ascended to some other level of abstraction with the "the WHATWG ghost" metaphor that's of too great refinement for me to appreciate
  19. # [00:03] <hober> MikeSmith: that's probably it
  20. # [00:04] <Hixie> if i have this object in the worker that's like an HTMLImageElement except for not being a DOM node, should I just call it HTMLImageElement? Or Image? or something else and we'll eventually put it on the main thread even though it's redundant?
  21. # [00:08] <MikeSmith> Hixie: would seem odd to call it HTMLImageElement
  22. # [00:08] <MikeSmith> or misleading
  23. # [00:08] <Hixie> yeah
  24. # [00:09] <Hixie> but if we ever put the DOM into workers, would be weird to not have it called that...
  25. # [00:10] <MikeSmith> oh
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  27. # [00:12] <MikeSmith> yay finally Pete Resnick talking now
  28. # [00:12] <MikeSmith> Hixie: mentioning that he talked along with others with you and Anne
  29. # [00:14] <MikeSmith> I like Pete
  30. # [00:14] <annevk> so sorry for not attending the IRI thing
  31. # [00:14] <annevk> I was busy drinking wine
  32. # [00:14] <MikeSmith> heh
  33. # [00:14] <annevk> back tomorrow
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  36. # [00:18] <MikeSmith> "I'm looking for some reason not to close down this working group."
  37. # [00:19] <MikeSmith> "Does anyone want to explain to me why the working group should not be shut down?"
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  51. # [00:46] <Hixie> heycam: yt?
  52. # [00:46] <heycam> hi Hixie
  53. # [00:46] <Hixie> hey hey
  54. # [00:46] <Hixie> hope you had a good vacation
  55. # [00:46] <heycam> yes thanks :)
  56. # [00:47] <Hixie> question about "implements", what happens if you have an interface that has an "attribute DOMString foo", and it implements another interface with "readonly attribute DOMString foo"?
  57. # [00:47] <Hixie> is that just non-conforming?
  58. # [00:47] <heycam> yeah I think the spec either says that's non-conforming, or that which one "wins" is undefined
  59. # [00:47] <Hixie> k
  60. # [00:47] <heycam> what do you want to do?
  61. # [00:48] <Hixie> dunno. my general problem is that i want to represent images in both the main thread and workers
  62. # [00:48] <Hixie> and ideally want to make the objects postMessage()able from one to the other
  63. # [00:49] <Hixie> i'm scared of making an HTMLImageElement (or just Image) object in the worker that is a subset of HTMLImageElement in the main thread because people might rely on it not being a Node and then if we ever add the DOM to workers we'll be in a world of hurt
  64. # [00:49] <Hixie> but then i don't want to introduce a separate object that isn't HTMLImageElement because it's bound to get into the main thread and then it's Yet Another Way to represent images there
  65. # [00:49] <heycam> ok so you don't want some properties not being on the worker-version of the object, in case they pop up later
  66. # [00:50] <Hixie> well my question above was about making HTMLImageElement implement Image, and having just Image in the worker
  67. # [00:50] <Hixie> and having Image have a readonly "src"
  68. # [00:50] <heycam> oh, what's Image
  69. # [00:50] <heycam> that used to be just a named constructor
  70. # [00:50] <Hixie> some theoretical new object for workers that is a subset (non-Node) of HTMLImageElement, named to coincide with the constructor Image() that creates an HTMLImageElement
  71. # [00:50] <Hixie> the naming being intentional to indicate that they're hte "same object" in principle
  72. # [00:50] <Hixie> and to make it so we can never bring Image to the main thread
  73. # [00:51] <Hixie> maybe i should just bite the bullet and introduce the Yet Another Way To Represent Bitmap Images
  74. # [00:51] <heycam> ok so Image would now be an interface, its contructor would return an HTMLImageElement in non-workers
  75. # [00:51] <Hixie> yeah
  76. # [00:52] <Hixie> (well, it'd be an interface in workers, and not in main thread)
  77. # [00:52] <Hixie> not present
  78. # [00:52] <heycam> do you think it would really be an issue if the worker version of the object some time in the future gained the reaminder of the HTMLImageElement properites?
  79. # [00:52] <Hixie> i don't know, but it sure seems plausible
  80. # [00:53] <heycam> btw what do you get from passing images to workers?
  81. # [00:53] <heycam> that isn't just what you get from passing a CanvasPixelArray of the image?
  82. # [00:53] <Hixie> well this is in the context of http://junkyard.damowmow.com/514 - adding canvas to workers
  83. # [00:54] <Hixie> and canvas needs images, really
  84. # [00:54] <Hixie> now i imagine we'll get images in a number of ways, e.g. from Blobs fetched from IndexDB (assuming we add a toImage() method to Blob), from XHR (responseType='image')
  85. # [00:54] <Hixie> but it makes sense that we'd also get images from the main thread
  86. # [00:54] <heycam> I see
  87. # [00:54] <heycam> I guess it is kind of weird to have the DOM element be the canonical representation of images
  88. # [00:55] <Hixie> welcome to the web, but yeah
  89. # [00:55] <heycam> :)
  90. # [00:57] <Hixie> current ways to represent binary (bitmap) image data in the main thread that I can think of: HTMLCanvasElement, HTMLImageElement, ImageData, Blob, a data: URL
  91. # [00:57] <Hixie> I suppose I could add a new object that can be constructed from any of those
  92. # [00:57] <Hixie> and just be done with it
  93. # [00:57] <heycam> well what about ImageData
  94. # [00:58] <heycam> or does that not include some information that the others have
  95. # [00:58] <Hixie> ImageData's problem is that it exposes every pixel and so it is trivial for the author to monkey with the data, which immediately breaks every optimisation you can think of
  96. # [00:58] <Hixie> if you don't allow that, you can do everything async or even off the main thread
  97. # [00:58] <Hixie> so we really don't want the primary representation to be ImageData
  98. # [00:59] <Hixie> or at least, it seems like a bad idea to me
  99. # [01:01] <Hixie> yeah ok i think i should just bite the bullet and make a new object for everywhere
  100. # [01:01] <Hixie> with a factory method that can take any of the above and asynchronously returns an object that has the data loaded
  101. # [01:02] <Hixie> BitmapImage maybe?
  102. # [01:02] <zewt> in principle you should be able to fast path until someone changes bits, but it probably does make sense to have an "async-optimized" container for images, in the same way Blob is that for generic data (vs. ArrayBuffer)
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  104. # [01:03] <Hixie> zewt: yeah, and i expect people will do that (lazy ImageData), but the problem is that it's really easy to run into the slow path by mistake
  105. # [01:03] <Hixie> zewt: e.g. you dump the ImageData to the console, and boom, now you need to synchronously fetch the data across both the GPU and process boundaries
  106. # [01:03] <zewt> also, ImageData is really bad at certain types of optimizations
  107. # [01:04] <zewt> for example, in principle an ImageData might be backed by a PNG until it's read--but that means you have a huge synchronous (and possibly UI thread) hitch on the first access, since you have to decompress it
  108. # [01:04] <Hixie> right
  109. # [01:04] <zewt> which you can give workarounds for, but they're just that
  110. # [01:04] <Hixie> which is bad enough, but that access might be in debug code
  111. # [01:04] <Hixie> which makes it even worse
  112. # [01:06] <zewt> i wonder if there's overlap between ImageWhatever and Blob
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  115. # [01:08] <MikeSmith> Hixie: hey wasn't the sortable-tables idea part of the datagrid spec?
  116. # [01:08] <MikeSmith> essentially
  117. # [01:08] <Hixie> yes, datagrid had that too
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  119. # [01:13] <MikeSmith> I think the sortable-table part of datagrid is what was most appealing thing to web developers
  120. # [01:13] <Hixie> possibly
  121. # [01:13] <Hixie> the only reason for datagrid was the lack of a DOM backing
  122. # [01:13] <MikeSmith> OK
  123. # [01:13] <Hixie> the just-in-time API
  124. # [01:13] <Hixie> dunno what it's formally called
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  126. # [01:20] <MikeSmith> good feedback from nessy on that thread
  127. # [01:22] <MikeSmith> Hixie: btw thanks again for the heads-up the day before yesterday about the validator-related message on the whatwg help list
  128. # [01:23] <MikeSmith> it help me find and fix a bug
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  131. # [01:23] <MikeSmith> also made me take time to read Henri's file-upload handling code
  132. # [01:24] <MikeSmith> anyway I wasn't subscribed the the help list before but I am now
  133. # [01:28] <Hixie> MikeSmith: cool
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  135. # [01:31] <wirepair_> might be interesting to some people here: http://www.veracode.com/blog/2012/11/security-headers-report/
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  139. # [01:36] <zewt> heh searching pdfs in chrome is still seriously annoying
  140. # [01:36] <zewt> type one letter, wait several seconds while it counts the letter in the whole document before being able to type anything else
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  142. # [01:41] <Hixie> searching the spec in chrome is even worse
  143. # [01:42] <Hixie> you type something not in the document and it just stops working for a few minutes
  144. # [01:42] <zewt> searching the spec works for me in chrome, except whenever i do, it jumps back to the top of the page
  145. # [01:42] <zewt> which is maddening
  146. # [01:42] <zewt> to search from the current position, i have to type it somewhere else, and copy and paste it into the search box
  147. # [01:43] <Hixie> try clicking on the text where you want to search from
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  149. # [01:43] <Hixie> like you're putting the caret down
  150. # [01:43] <zewt> i've tried that, doesn't help
  151. # [01:43] <zewt> mostly i just load in FF to search
  152. # [01:44] <zewt> ff is also better at navigating anchors, eg. i can go to the address bar and hit enter and it'll jump back to the current #hash
  153. # [01:45] <zewt> if i do that in chrome it reloads
  154. # [01:45] <zewt> maybe that's just a weird usage pattern that only i do, using the hash as a short-term bookmark then doing the above to jump back to it
  155. # [01:46] <Hixie> i do that all the time. in chrome i worked around it by just changing the url to end in an x and then deleting the x :-)
  156. # [01:46] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/515 <- new strawman for canvas in workers
  157. # [01:46] <zewt> the "weird browser dance"
  158. # [01:48] <zewt> Hixie: i wonder how things like this (canvas in workers) would actually work for shared workers, where afaik (unlike dedicated workers) you may not be in the same process
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  160. # [01:48] <zewt> (unlike dedicated workers created by the UI thread, i mean)
  161. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> wirepair_: interesting
  162. # [01:48] <zewt> maybe just a really slow path? dunno
  163. # [01:49] <wirepair_> MikeSmith: hence why i was asking those questions yesterday :)
  164. # [01:49] <wirepair_> got the answer from mozilla folks
  165. # [01:49] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  166. # [01:49] <MikeSmith> about Strict Transport Security
  167. # [01:50] <Hixie> zewt: i don't understand
  168. # [01:50] <Hixie> zewt: how would that matter?
  169. # [01:50] <Hixie> zewt: dedicated worekrs aren't likely in the same process either
  170. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> wirepair_: incidentally speaking of browsers taking a long time to do things, that page seems to take a long long time to load for me
  171. # [01:50] <zewt> an implementation can guarantee that dedicated workers created by a browsing context are in the same process, but it's impossible to guarantee otherwise
  172. # [01:51] <zewt> (that is, they can guarantee it if they want to)
  173. # [01:51] <zewt> i guess it's a case of "this is hard, deal with it"
  174. # [01:51] <zewt> such is the web
  175. # [01:51] <zewt> (hard as in, harder than "just" rendering from another thread in the same process--you have to support an IPC path too)
  176. # [01:51] <wirepair_> hmm odd seems to load fine for me ;)
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  178. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> anyway, retweeted
  179. # [01:53] <Hixie> zewt: same process as what? The graphics are happening on the GPU...
  180. # [01:54] <zewt> same process as the process that's displaying the results, which owns the OS window where the results are going, etc
  181. # [01:54] <wirepair_> MikeSmith: what's your twitter handle?
  182. # [01:54] <MikeSmith> sideshowbarker
  183. # [01:55] <wirepair_> cheers
  184. # [01:55] <zewt> i guess it all gets more complex depending on how the browser's compositing system works anyway
  185. # [01:55] <zewt> (which I have no idea about)
  186. # [01:56] <zewt> anyway, you probably want implementor feedback on that, not mine
  187. # [01:57] <Hixie> zewt: all feedback is welcome :-)
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  189. # [02:01] <zewt> Hixie: is there no analog to toDataURL and toBlob from within the thread? (since CanvasTransferableRenderingContext doesn't have those, and since it neuters, they wouldn't work anyway)
  190. # [02:03] <zewt> and a way to createImageBitmap in the thread from another canvas in that thread (since you don't have the HTMLCanvasElement)
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  193. # [02:08] <Hixie> zewt: .canvas on the 2d context
  194. # [02:08] <Hixie> zewt: returns an ImageBitmap object
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  267. # [05:30] <msangel> hi
  268. # [05:32] <msangel> all is sleaping
  269. # [05:32] <msangel> ok
  270. # [05:34] <Hixie> all is watching US election :-)
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  282. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> the gonna fly the flag at half staff at all NASCAR races for a while I guess
  283. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> poor crackers
  284. # [06:21] <MikeSmith> but wait I see from the map that Mexico and Canada have not voted yet!
  285. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> in other news I wonder why I didn't realize Hubbub was as far along as it is
  286. # [06:28] <MikeSmith> http://www.netsurf-browser.org/projects/hubbub/
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  297. # [07:10] <annevk> oh lol, Roy called me a terrorist?
  298. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> annevk: not by name
  299. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> sorta just by association
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  302. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> anyway, wear it with pride man
  303. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> considering the source
  304. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> the part where is he spoke about "anti-social behavior within the WHATWG" was fun too
  305. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> considering, you know, how social and civil he is
  306. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> and his lovable, charming way with words that just endears everybody to him so much
  307. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> we should be more like him
  308. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> follow his example
  309. # [07:18] <annevk> the irc-logs from (for me) last night crack me up
  310. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> the funniest part was where you said you're going to run for the TAG
  311. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> next thing you'll be telling us your going to run for the Supreme Court of the IETF
  312. # [07:23] <annevk> yeah man, IAB, IESG, all the acronyms
  313. # [07:24] <annevk> Hixie: I wonder if we should merge XHR and Workers a bit more, or maybe Workers in general with the rest of the platform
  314. # [07:24] <annevk> Hixie: that instead of Workers saying how APIs behave, APIs define how they work in Workers
  315. # [07:25] <annevk> Hixie: e.g. I just noticed you can set responseType to "document" in a Worker per the XHR spec, which makes little sense
  316. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> annevk: it almost sounds like you're discussing architecture right now
  317. # [07:27] <annevk> MikeSmith: don't tell anyone, they might get the wrong impression
  318. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> hehheh
  319. # [07:29] <annevk> https://twitter.com/sideshowbarker/status/265980959848022020 he was surprised?
  320. # [07:29] <annevk> sounds more like Film at 11 to me
  321. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> wirepair_: annevk is saying "You must be new here"
  322. # [07:33] <annevk> that people get CORS wrong is kinda funny, because if you don't get it right, stuff won't work...
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  324. # [07:33] <annevk> afaict the other headers are about additional protection
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  329. # [07:40] <annevk> twitter is basically useless now
  330. # [07:40] <annevk> will it take another day for the election thing to go away?
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  332. # [07:42] <MikeSmith> don't think it'll take that long
  333. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> Turn out the lights the party's over
  334. # [07:44] <Hixie> annevk: i'm all for making xhr know about workers, sure
  335. # [07:45] <annevk> Hixie: it would be nice if we had simple language like "in Window context" and "in Worker context" to hook into
  336. # [07:45] <annevk> Hixie: currently I'm using some hack based on whether or not XHR has an associated Document, but that's not very clear
  337. # [07:46] <annevk> Hixie: so I guess you'd need to provide those hooks, and then I can take some probable future work and maintenance away from you
  338. # [07:51] <annevk> Hixie: oops, you already do
  339. # [07:51] <annevk> Hixie: document and worker environment, great
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  341. # [07:53] <Hixie> yeah, added those recently cos i needed them for the same reason :_)
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  343. # [07:58] <annevk> Hixie: so I guess I'll make those changes when we do the Image thing
  344. # [07:58] <Hixie> i think i may end up not needing the Image thing
  345. # [07:59] <Hixie> i'm just gonna have a way to go from Blob to ImageBitmap
  346. # [08:00] <annevk> that works too, we can always add it later as convenience (we have "json" too)
  347. # [08:00] <Hixie> yeah
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  353. # [08:12] <annevk> so yesterday was copyright, today capital-p Process http://annevankesteren.nl/2012/11/process
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  376. # [09:04] <hsivonen> must. resist. making. technical. arguments. about. polyglot. on. public-html.
  377. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> snort
  378. # [09:06] <hsivonen> (people in that thread seem to have forgotten query strings)
  379. # [09:06] <hsivonen> I must look away. otherwise, it would be 386 time.
  380. # [09:08] <kennyluck> must. resist. opening. public-html. archive
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  388. # [09:15] <annevk> Hixie: http://junkyard.damowmow.com/515 Alex Russell is going to nuke you
  389. # [09:15] <annevk> Hixie: "ImageBitmapFactory"...
  390. # [09:15] <annevk> Hixie: need to use constructors man
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  392. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> annevk: the punctuation in the last paragraph of your blog posting shows that you've reached the next level of the game and are now ready to start writing Lisp
  393. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> annevk: the next thing you need to do is start growing a neckbeard
  394. # [09:17] <annevk> heh, on it :)
  395. # [09:17] <annevk> the parenthesis nicely illustrate the complexity
  396. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> indeed
  397. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> clever
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  402. # [09:19] <yuhong> /msg NickServ identify asdasd
  403. # [09:20] <annevk> Hixie: I see, you want ImageBitmap to be created asynchronously, but I'm not sure why that's necessary if the object itself is async...
  404. # [09:20] <hsivonen> not that strong a password to begin with
  405. # [09:20] <yuhong> On the TAG, I hope this work can be finished:
  406. # [09:20] <yuhong> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/12/evolution/
  407. # [09:20] <yuhong> hsivonen: I know.
  408. # [09:22] <yuhong> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Evolution
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  410. # [09:22] <yuhong> It will be useful in proving that the W3C process and versioning HTML is flawed.
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  421. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> hey guys we need somebody to write a rebuttal blog posting explaining all the positive aspects if the current publication Process
  422. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> oops
  423. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> wrong channel
  424. # [09:42] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, I'll do that
  425. # [09:42] <Ms2ger> "None"
  426. # [09:42] <Ms2ger> Want to publish it? I don't have a blog
  427. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> we pay by the word
  428. # [09:43] <annevk> Stevef_: don't worry, technical stuff is next
  429. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> or alternatively by the depth of parenthesis
  430. # [09:43] <Ms2ger> (((((((((None)))))))))))))
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  432. # [09:43] <Ms2ger> http://xkcd.com/1131/ < Hah
  433. # [09:44] <Stevef_> annevk: not worried, just thinking aloud about the general tone of your posts, which I understand, but don't necessarily agree with
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  435. # [09:45] <Stevef_> annevk: I have experienced the BS, but also the opportunity
  436. # [09:45] <annevk> copyright is dialed down a bunch from what I had initially, but sure
  437. # [09:46] <yuhong> Ms2ger: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/120oif/we_are_mozilla_aua/c6r65h3
  438. # [09:46] <Stevef_> annevk: and "I have experienced the BS, but also the opportunity" this goes for both w3C and whatwg
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  455. # [10:13] <annevk> Stevef_: happy to reword things on request btw
  456. # [10:14] <annevk> Stevef_: I wouldn't write a critique if I didn't care and if I can improve it all the bette
  457. # [10:14] <annevk> r*
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  467. # [10:38] <annevk> Hixie: aah, I guess the main problem with "data is valid" is Blob
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  471. # [10:40] <annevk> Hixie: but if it's just for Blob, something like ImageBitmap.create(Blob, callback) might be nicer
  472. # [10:41] <annevk> Hixie: more like URL.createFromObject() or whatever we ended up calling that
  473. # [10:41] <jgraham> annevk: Iy might be worth mentioning the unicode exception on your blog
  474. # [10:42] <jgraham> Also the last paragraph reads like lisp
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  476. # [10:43] <annevk> Unicode is not quite an exception always I think. See IDNA2003 and XML
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  479. # [10:45] <annevk> Unicode is also decidedly less modular. It affects e.g. what whitespace and identifiers can consist of in JavaScript
  480. # [10:45] <Stevef_> annevk: no requests, you have to telll it as you see it
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  483. # [10:46] <SimonSapin> what’s the unicode exception?
  484. # [10:47] <jgraham> Unicode is unstable, but people tend not to object when you reference it
  485. # [10:47] <jgraham> (without specifying a particular version)
  486. # [10:48] <jgraham> For some reason, in that case, people accept that the dependency will be a single reusable library
  487. # [10:50] <annevk> https://twitter.com/dirkschulze/status/263591602960879617 hehe
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  490. # [10:52] <SimonSapin> I think that stability is not binary: there is a whole scale from something widely implemented and in a "set in stone" rec, to the crazy idea in a CSS editor’s draft that no-one heard about or intends to implement
  491. # [10:52] * padenot is now known as padenot|away
  492. # [10:53] <jgraham> Well yes, I think that everyone agrees on that in principle
  493. # [10:53] <annevk> "set in stone" is exactly right, typical RECs are bogus if you look at details, and most if you just glance over them
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  495. # [10:54] <annevk> (I meant including the quotation marks is exactly right.)
  496. # [10:54] <jgraham> The Process is a lot further toward the binary end of the scale though
  497. # [10:54] <annevk> SimonSapin: the "crazy idea in a CSS editor's draft" is a distraction I think
  498. # [10:54] <SimonSapin> how so?
  499. # [10:55] <annevk> SimonSapin: it's the exception
  500. # [10:55] <SimonSapin> do you mean it shouldn’t be there at all?
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  503. # [10:55] <jgraham> FWIW,if I were editing, I think I would work like this:
  504. # [10:55] <jgraham> Bugfixes - straight into the main spec
  505. # [10:56] <jgraham> New ideas without any review - onto a work branch to get review
  506. # [10:56] <annevk> no I mean that a) that argument carries way less weight and b) everyone agrees a stability annotation system would be useful
  507. # [10:56] <jgraham> Then I would annotate sections for actual stability
  508. # [10:57] <annevk> SimonSapin: the "crazy idea" argument is often used, but in practice it's rarely a problem, whereas a REC not describing what you actually need to implement whereas there's an "editor's draft" that does is common
  509. # [10:57] <annevk> and is a problem
  510. # [10:57] <SimonSapin> my point is that the crazy idea might gradually get more and more attention, discussion and acceptance : the stability scale is not discrete, there are all the intermediate states
  511. # [10:57] <jgraham> Yeah
  512. # [10:57] <jgraham> Of course
  513. # [10:58] <annevk> if it gets acceptance it might not be so crazy :)
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  515. # [10:58] <annevk> anyway, I'm gonna miss yet another train this way
  516. # [10:58] <jgraham> But if it is "fantasai's personal scratchpad for collaboration with TabAtkins_" (a use case that came up at TPAC), that sounds like "shared branch" to me
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  518. # [10:59] <SimonSapin> agreed
  519. # [10:59] <jgraham> If it is something that is a new idea, that the editor thinks is good and that shows some interest, that should be main spec + a label indicating high instability
  520. # [11:00] <SimonSapin> another data point: I just made a clarification change to Selectors4. It applies equally to level 3 but I didn’t bother because of the Process
  521. # [11:00] <jgraham> If it is something that has two implementations that don't yet fully interoperate, that is main spec + a label that says high stability
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  524. # [11:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: maybe v.nu should validate http headers
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  526. # [11:04] <zcorpan> " Of the 217 invalid values, most were attempting to mix SAMEORIGIN with Allow-From, which ends up causing Chrome and IE9 to simply fail open and allow any site to frame the resource." seems scary
  527. # [11:04] <zcorpan> (http://www.veracode.com/blog/2012/11/security-headers-report/ )
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  531. # [11:11] <zcorpan> for STS, maybe we should ignore the specified value and always treat it as "long max-age"
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  537. # [11:14] <odinho> zcorpan: That's a good idea.
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  539. # [11:16] <zcorpan> these results need pondering
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  549. # [11:30] <annevk> jgraham: yeah, I don't scratch in the spec, like Hixie I use some text file on a server or mailing list discussion
  550. # [11:36] <zcorpan> annevk: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2012Nov/0013.html
  551. # [11:36] <annevk> sweet
  552. # [11:37] <annevk> zcorpan: I think what he should maybe do first is produce a grid of results
  553. # [11:38] <annevk> zcorpan: then we can re-evaluate the specs
  554. # [11:38] <zcorpan> so keep webkit as the expected result for now?
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  556. # [11:41] <annevk> we could make them match the URL Standard
  557. # [11:41] <annevk> just noticed fragment behavior is even weirder than I thought :/
  558. # [11:43] <annevk> back in a bit
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  579. # [12:18] <jgraham> SteveF: You might find http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1897 illuminating
  580. # [12:18] * jgraham assumes he will read the logs
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  589. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: about v.nu providing validation for headers, in a follow-up comment to that security-headers posting somewhere, I remember seeing a mention of the idea of a linter for headers
  590. # [12:41] <MikeSmith> would be good to have at least for whatever higher-priority problem cases we might be able to identify
  591. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> like the same-origin with Allow-From case you cited there
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  594. # [12:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: which reminds me that I should drive the HttpClient update into the repo
  595. # [12:45] <hsivonen> as a side effect of updating HttpClient, I ended up validating the headers that the validator uses as part of its own operation
  596. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> oh
  597. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> nice
  598. # [12:46] <hsivonen> i.e. Content-Length and the like
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  600. # [12:47] <jgraham> hsivonen: BTW <main><p></main><p> seems like particularly nasty behaviour
  601. # [12:48] * hsivonen expects IE10 to surpass IE6 for Christmas in usage
  602. # [12:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: ouch. yeah. :-(
  603. # [12:49] <hsivonen> <p> still sucks
  604. # [12:49] <hsivonen> (though Hixie considers it a feature)
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  606. # [12:50] <hsivonen> I may have to revise my opinion of not changing the parser if <main> is introduced to the platform
  607. # [12:52] * abstractj|brb is now known as abstractj
  608. # [12:59] <annevk> I like <p> too
  609. # [13:01] <odinho> <p> and not doing </p> is a feature. I use it a lot :P[6~[D[D[D[C[C[D
  610. # [13:01] <Stevef_> jgraham:thanks
  611. # [13:03] <Stevef_> so i guess that I add advice about adding main as per zcorpans email and let implementers fight it out...
  612. # [13:04] <karlcow> hsivonen: nice for HTTP validation. I often wished that http://redbot.org/ was into the markup validator
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  617. # [13:05] <jgraham> Stevef_: Yes, I think I would monkey-patch the parsing algorithm for now and look for pushback
  618. # [13:05] <Stevef_> jgraham: OK thanks again!
  619. # [13:06] <jgraham> (it is easier to put the change in and back out later than the opposite)
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  633. # [13:26] <annevk> zcorpan: my tentative plan is to require http://unicode.org/reports/tr46/ btw for IDNA
  634. # [13:26] <annevk> zcorpan: prolly with "Transitional" set
  635. # [13:26] <MikeSmith> ah that
  636. # [13:26] <MikeSmith> yeah
  637. # [13:27] <annevk> zcorpan: trying to work out with Mark Davis if we can improve the language around the hooks somehow
  638. # [13:27] <MikeSmith> I remember now that Mark Davis brought that to everybody's attention when we had he TPAC in Santa Clara
  639. # [13:27] <MikeSmith> there was even a dinner meeting to talk about it
  640. # [13:27] <annevk> I wish I started this a year earlier :/
  641. # [13:28] <annevk> He emailed me a bunch of times too, but I wasn't involved in any way with any of this
  642. # [13:28] <MikeSmith> yeah you lazy sluggard
  643. # [13:28] <MikeSmith> you just sat around daydreaming all this time
  644. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> annevk: do any UAs actually implement that yet?
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  647. # [13:40] <annevk> MikeSmith: I'm not sure what UAs do
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  652. # [13:50] <SimonSapin> http://beta.ohmytoast.com/toast/view/3f4b8a72-dda2-6834-bdbe-d0203c46bade
  653. # [13:50] <zcorpan> annevk: that's close but not exactly what opera does, right?
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  656. # [13:51] <zcorpan> the emails about conversion of opera's tests annoy me
  657. # [13:51] <zcorpan> people should be thankful that we released tests at all
  658. # [13:52] <zcorpan> not complain that them not being in the right format yet blocks the Process
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  660. # [13:53] <zcorpan> W3C, if you don't give us a pleasant work environment for testsuites, well, you know the drill
  661. # [13:55] <karlcow> is /007 a leading zero a license to kill http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss/current/msg07727.html
  662. # [13:55] <karlcow> * double zero
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  664. # [13:56] <annevk> zcorpan: I'm not sure what Opera does
  665. # [13:56] <zcorpan> annevk: ok. same here :-(
  666. # [13:57] <annevk> zcorpan: Opera e.g. applies Punycode to ™ whereas that's invalid per IDNA2008 and should be mapped per IDNA2003 / #46
  667. # [13:57] <zcorpan> though i haven't looked at this closely either
  668. # [13:57] <annevk> zcorpan: I would strongly encourage to revert the IDNA2008 patch for now
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  672. # [14:00] <annevk> zcorpan: I need to fix some bugs in the DOM and XHR, I guess then I'll work on that
  673. # [14:01] <annevk> I read the relevant RFCs now so I do at least know what the ideas are behind the 3 strategies, need to look into the details a bit more
  674. # [14:02] <annevk> and maybe make a post comparing the models
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  689. # [14:51] <annevk> http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en/us/offers/html5.aspx (via #fronteers)
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  691. # [14:52] <zewt> first impression of this stuart guy: he doesn't have much experience with list discussions (as I skip over his mail)
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  700. # [15:01] <annevk> which list?
  701. # [15:02] <zewt> whatwg, just a four-page wall of text
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  704. # [15:04] <annevk> oh, he's been around for a long time
  705. # [15:04] <hsivonen> are the minutes from last night’s URL meeting still available somewhere? or the audio?
  706. # [15:05] <hsivonen> note to self: don’t install OpenJDK security patches when Eclipse is running
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  708. # [15:06] <zewt> easy solution: don't run eclipse
  709. # [15:06] <zewt> (results may vary)
  710. # [15:06] <annevk> seems actually like he gives extremely useful feedback
  711. # [15:07] <zewt> not saying it's not useful, just that it's a wall of text, heh
  712. # [15:08] <annevk> hsivonen: all I can find is http://tools.ietf.org/wg/iri/minutes which is not yet filled in
  713. # [15:09] <hsivonen> annevk: ok. :-(
  714. # [15:09] <annevk> hsivonen: there's some humorous minuting in #whatwg irc-logs
  715. # [15:09] <hsivonen> did they record audio?
  716. # [15:09] <hsivonen> annevk: I saw those and wanted to see more
  717. # [15:09] <hsivonen> podcast idea: audio from URL meetings
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  721. # [15:13] <annevk> hsivonen: it looks like there should be, but it's not clear there is
  722. # [15:13] <annevk> in particular http://www.meetecho.com/ietf85/recordings is 404
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  724. # [15:17] <annevk> hsivonen: http://www.ietf.org/audio/ietf85/ietf85-209-20121106-1700-pm3.mp3
  725. # [15:17] <annevk> hsivonen: starts at 1:43
  726. # [15:17] <annevk> hsivonen: I guess I'm gonna listen now too
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  729. # [15:20] <annevk> hsivonen: really starts 4:30 or so
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  732. # [15:29] <zcorpan> "this is a working group that is not doing very much work"
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  740. # [15:36] <annevk> so this is news to me
  741. # [15:37] <annevk> I thought Larry was planning to tackle this, but he's actually trying to find someone else to do it
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  743. # [15:41] <odinho> annevk: Are you doing the MS HTML5 course? :D
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  745. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> he's teaching it
  746. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> without access to IE
  747. # [15:45] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks. is that file still being appended to? or is just a case of the IETF serving a file without Content-Length?
  748. # [15:45] <karlcow> brainwaves
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  750. # [15:45] <hsivonen> apparently just the latter
  751. # [15:45] <annevk> hsivonen: it has been buffering here for a while and now seems complete, I should have downloaded it instead I guess
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  753. # [15:46] <annevk> hsivonen: but these are supposed to be static resources
  754. # [15:46] <annevk> hsivonen: static resources are hosted elsewhere
  755. # [15:46] <annevk> hsivonen: euh, streaming resources
  756. # [15:46] <hsivonen> yeah, it’s a static resource without Content-Length
  757. # [15:46] <annevk> HTTP is hard
  758. # [15:46] <annevk> even for the IETF
  759. # [15:47] <annevk> stuff gets good at 28
  760. # [15:48] <annevk> it has the terrorists bit
  761. # [15:49] <hsivonen> only has left audio channel?
  762. # [15:49] <hsivonen> MP3 is hard, too?
  763. # [15:50] <annevk> even text/plain is hard :)
  764. # [15:50] <annevk> or moving away from it is, maybe :p
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  771. # [15:59] <annevk> I wish the IETF was on IRC
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  773. # [16:03] <jgraham> NIH
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  775. # [16:04] <annevk> 44 minutes in it is explained that only browsers want "fixup" and web spiders don't
  776. # [16:05] <annevk> it's like all the arguments and explanation I gave on the mailing list went to waste
  777. # [16:05] <karlcow> annevk: which web spiders?
  778. # [16:06] <karlcow> because if I remember at least for Google, there was an intent to behave like a headless browser.
  779. # [16:06] <annevk> karlcow: curl/wget? Bing/Google
  780. # [16:06] <annevk> anything really
  781. # [16:07] <danbri> is there a transcript?
  782. # [16:08] <karlcow> It is strange to think that (search engine) web spiders will not want to behave like browsers as they are made to index what a human could access.
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  784. # [16:09] <danbri> so a headless old-style browser was something that showed you a document; a headless shiny-futuristic browser, is an all singing, all dancing pseudo-OS
  785. # [16:09] <karlcow> I can imagine a client which do not want fixup for testing an API, but that could be implemented with a switch in the client.
  786. # [16:09] <danbri> wanting to behave like the former sounds easier
  787. # [16:10] <hsivonen> the observation that there’s Stop Energy against URL work everywhere except the WHATWG was pretty apt
  788. # [16:10] <karlcow> The Web is not an easy ride. :)
  789. # [16:11] <hsivonen> the naming because there’s no versioning thing is so theoretical. sad.
  790. # [16:11] <annevk> danbri: couldn't find a transcript
  791. # [16:12] * danbri nods
  792. # [16:12] <annevk> danbri: I would appreciate one because I can't easily scan this MP3 file in Chrome and I think I'm missing points people are making
  793. # [16:12] <danbri> tried Opera?
  794. # [16:13] * karlcow loves scribes \o/
  795. # [16:13] <annevk> so far though I'm not really convinced this is a good use of my time, especially since they appear to not have read my emails closely which would take them only a couple of minutes
  796. # [16:13] <annevk> whereas this is taking me an hour
  797. # [16:16] <annevk> Larry is channelling the WHATWG now
  798. # [16:17] <annevk> 51 in
  799. # [16:17] <annevk> it's pretty good
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  803. # [16:21] <annevk> lol
  804. # [16:21] <annevk> hober gave actual feedback, they skipped over it, prolly didn't know he represented a browser
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  806. # [16:24] <annevk> oh, they get to it now
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  808. # [16:25] <sedovsek> Is position: sticky already implemented in any of the browsers?
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  811. # [16:29] <annevk> "The W3C is at a lower level in the standards food chain than the IETF"
  812. # [16:32] <odinho> Don't like the sticky.
  813. # [16:33] <broquaint> sedovsek: http://updates.html5rocks.com/2012/08/Stick-your-landings-position-sticky-lands-in-WebKit
  814. # [16:33] <sedovsek> Support right now is Chrome 23.0.1247.0+ (current Canary) and WebKit nightly.
  815. # [16:33] <sedovsek> Thanks.
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  817. # [16:35] <odinho> Seems like a feature designed in a very restrictive way to do a popular thing right now.
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  819. # [16:37] <hsivonen> "The error handling in a health information system is different from error handling on a porn site."
  820. # [16:37] <odinho> And help, anyone know how to get to the real page of player.vimeo.com/video/52914691 ? I don't have flash, so I always push the "download" button on vimeo to see videos, -- but I can't get to the non-flash site from that url. vimeo.com/52914691 doesn't work.
  821. # [16:38] <hsivonen> I guess whoever said that hasn’t looked at the screens in a hospital and seen that there are browser-based interfaces to heald information systems
  822. # [16:38] <hsivonen> *health
  823. # [16:39] <annevk> sometimes I wonder if you hear like decade old arguments that were never updated
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  827. # [16:43] <hsivonen> I wonder if anyone told the IETF about xsd:anyURI
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  830. # [16:45] <annevk> I like how the IESG had a similar range of reactions to doing the URL Standard at the IETF (from optimistic to snickering)
  831. # [16:45] <annevk> 1:07 in
  832. # [16:46] * divya1 is now known as divya-
  833. # [16:47] <annevk> iPad Mini commercial 12:30 in, mnot got one!
  834. # [16:47] <annevk> 1:12:30*
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  838. # [16:48] * karlcow heads to hsivonen http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/01/17/city-council-to-vote-on-mandatory-condom-use-for-adult-film-stars/
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  844. # [17:00] <jgraham> karlcow: If real life is like Grey's Anatomy, I think porn stars and hospital staff need exactly the same kind of error protection in that regard
  845. # [17:00] <jgraham> (note: I have never seen Grey's Anatomy)
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  847. # [17:02] <annevk> I wonder if beyond 1:20 there's anything useful or if it's just about chartering
  848. # [17:03] <karlcow> I don't know what is Grey Anatomy, but yes for the rest.
  849. # [17:03] <jgraham> It seems to be a hospital drama in which there is very little hospital and lots of drama
  850. # [17:04] <karlcow> ah ! ok ☺ like Web standards then… little technology and lots of drama ;)
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  852. # [17:08] <annevk> so earlier in (forgot the time) mnot asked about normatively referencing WHATWG
  853. # [17:09] <annevk> could be done, but you'd had to copy the relevant bit in
  854. # [17:09] <annevk> so it wouldn't change
  855. # [17:09] <annevk> brilliant
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  858. # [17:12] <annevk> at 1:28:-- there's a bit about URI scheme registration
  859. # [17:12] <annevk> someone from Microsoft bulk registered the schemes mentioned on Wikipedia
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  871. # [17:39] <GPHemsley> FTR: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/WHATWG_Wiki:How_to_create_a_user_account
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  901. # [18:39] <gavinp> Is an autoconfirmed user here able to help me, gavinp@chromium.org get a whatwg wiki account?
  902. # [18:40] <gavinp> Hixie: pingity
  903. # [18:41] <smaug____> annevk: ^
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  905. # [18:41] <annevk> yeah I can
  906. # [18:42] <gavinp> actually, I already had an account.
  907. # [18:42] <gavinp> Gavinp
  908. # [18:42] <annevk> ah okay
  909. # [18:42] <gavinp> my apologies for taking your time. Thanks all the same for your time!
  910. # [18:43] * annevk goes back to refactoring XHR
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  932. # [19:02] <annevk> Hixie: XHR now uses JavaScript global environment as a concept
  933. # [19:02] <annevk> Hixie: it became much easier to follow I think as a result :)
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  950. # [19:17] <annevk> relevant bug: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19892
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  960. # [19:39] <hober> anything i should bring up in the unicode meeting?
  961. # [19:39] * Joins: Dantman (~dantman@mediawiki/dantman)
  962. # [19:41] <TabAtkins_> FINISH THE UTR-50 REPORT
  963. # [19:41] * Joins: jsoncorwin (~textual@c-67-170-235-108.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  964. # [19:41] <TabAtkins_> IT'S BEEN MONTHS SINCE THEY DECIDED ON WHAT TO DO
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  969. # [19:44] <hober> yeah, that's why i'm in the room :)
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  987. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> where's the details on the unicode meeting?
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  989. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> hober: ↑
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  992. # [20:07] <hober> MikeSmith: i don't know offhand where the meeting info is posted
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  994. # [20:08] <MikeSmith> ok
  995. # [20:08] * TabAtkins_ is now known as TabAtkins
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  997. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> oh
  998. # [20:09] <Adept> Hello
  999. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> yall are hosting it
  1000. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> http://www.unicode.org/timesens/logistics-utc133.html
  1001. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> hey Adept
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  1003. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> hmm
  1004. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> not much details there
  1005. # [20:09] <hober> yeah, i biked over for the utr50 discussion
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  1009. # [20:10] <MikeSmith> I bet the meeting next week in Hanoi would be more fun
  1010. # [20:10] <MikeSmith> you should have picked that one instead man
  1011. # [20:11] <MikeSmith> the beer costs like 20 cents
  1012. # [20:11] <MikeSmith> though it's unpasteurized
  1013. # [20:11] <Adept> sentatic beer ? :)
  1014. # [20:11] <MikeSmith> and the guy that serves it to you has to suck out of hose from a bucket
  1015. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> Do shared workers outlive the last page that opened them?
  1016. # [20:11] <MikeSmith> bia hoi
  1017. # [20:12] <gavinp> I'm confused. What does it mean for a beer to be unpasteurized?
  1018. # [20:12] <gavinp> Most beer is not a sterile product; there's live yeast in it, or at least yeast cysts.
  1019. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> gavinp: It means... they don't pasteurize it?
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  1021. # [20:12] <gavinp> And you can't make beer without boiling it first, that's how you catalyze the breakdown of the malt so it will ferment.
  1022. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> gavinp: I'm not good with words
  1023. # [20:12] <gavinp> OK. I guess I don't understand beer production.
  1024. # [20:12] <Adept> only English language , or some russian ?
  1025. # [20:13] <MikeSmith> it doesn't keep like other beer
  1026. # [20:13] <MikeSmith> or something
  1027. # [20:13] <MikeSmith> bia hoi man
  1028. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> Adept: If you're asking what languages you can speak in this room, mostly English, though we have some Dutch lying around.
  1029. # [20:13] <karlcow> wooot next week in Hanoi… damn.
  1030. # [20:13] <karlcow> too late I'm already heading to Fujisawa next week.
  1031. # [20:13] <Adept> TabAtkins , thk :)
  1032. # [20:14] <gavinp> Ah, I just don't know 'bout beer production. In the USA, foreign draught beer and canned & bottled beer is normally pasteurized, but domestic draught beer is not.
  1033. # [20:14] * gavinp idles again.
  1034. # [20:14] <TabAtkins> So anyway, hey, about those Shared Workers.
  1035. # [20:14] * TabAtkins doesn't want to try and decipher lifetime semantics from the spec right now.
  1036. # [20:15] * MikeSmith was going to ask HIxie's boilerplate question, "Does the spec not make that clear?"
  1037. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> Lifetime semantics are nearly never clear.
  1038. # [20:15] <Adept> red wine like some ?
  1039. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> even Hixie doesn't always know that "that" is when he asks it
  1040. # [20:16] <Hixie> tis true
  1041. # [20:16] <Adept> gavinp , now beer is powder
  1042. # [20:16] * Joins: thisgeek (~chris@cpe-204-210-135-55.hvc.res.rr.com)
  1043. # [20:17] <MikeSmith> btw some of the band names from the band names list at the bottom of http://www.unicode.org/timesens/calendar.html should be added to our band-names list
  1044. # [20:17] <MikeSmith> e.g., Ideographic Rapporteur Group
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  1046. # [20:17] <Adept> But I do my natural red wine :)
  1047. # [20:18] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f732618.pool.mediaWays.net)
  1048. # [20:20] <Adept> You can find out? who tried Native Client SDK ?
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  1056. # [20:35] <MikeSmith> wow dhyatt over on #webkit asking for review
  1057. # [20:35] <MikeSmith> oh he's asking SImon Fraser
  1058. # [20:35] <MikeSmith> but still
  1059. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> there should be a "Hyatt's waiting on me for code review" beer mug awarded for that
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  1061. # [20:37] * nimbu_ is now known as divya
  1062. # [20:42] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: Hixie is ignoring your question about persistent workers
  1063. # [20:42] <Hixie> what's the question?
  1064. # [20:43] <MikeSmith> Hixie: "Do shared workers outlive the last page that opened them?"
  1065. # [20:43] * Joins: nrth (~nrth@91.72.112.11)
  1066. # [20:43] <Hixie> shared workers last as long as people have references to them
  1067. # [20:43] <Hixie> doesn't have to be documents
  1068. # [20:43] <Hixie> could e.g. be other workers
  1069. # [20:43] <Hixie> so long as they're themselves opened (indirectly) by a document
  1070. # [20:44] <Hixie> the ownership is decided via the MessagePort objects
  1071. # [20:44] <Hixie> iirc
  1072. # [20:44] <Hixie> so short answer no, long answer yes.
  1073. # [20:45] <MikeSmith> that sounds like a good message for a fortune cookie, man
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  1075. # [20:45] <divya> ahaha
  1076. # [20:45] <karlcow> :D
  1077. # [20:45] * divya thinks of posting it to w3cmemes and have a yoda meme around it
  1078. # [20:45] <divya> MikeSmith: your gin joke never made it :(
  1079. # [20:47] * Quits: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@190.244.76.14) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1080. # [20:47] <MikeSmith> divya: I tried to pushed the w3cmemes button at the time but I was too ginned up and pushed another button and send it somewhere else
  1081. # [20:47] <MikeSmith> divya:btw I hope you over your cold
  1082. # [20:47] <MikeSmith> and high five on your book getting published soon
  1083. # [20:48] <MikeSmith> I will shoplift some copies of it for sure once I can get my hands on some
  1084. # [20:48] <divya> MikeSmith: i am miraculously over it. i am shocked myself.
  1085. # [20:48] <divya> MikeSmith: LOLOLOLOL thanks
  1086. # [20:48] <MikeSmith> thank Jesus for you cold recovery
  1087. # [20:48] <divya> ahahahah
  1088. # [20:48] <divya> or should I thank TPAC
  1089. # [20:49] <divya> everyone who was at TPAC is sick @ office.
  1090. # [20:49] <MikeSmith> oh
  1091. # [20:49] <MikeSmith> well that sucks
  1092. # [20:49] <MikeSmith> but at least you're better so too bad for the rest of em!
  1093. # [20:49] <divya> inorite. i think I am the only one left standing.
  1094. # [20:49] <divya> ahahaha
  1095. # [20:49] <divya> EXACTLY
  1096. # [20:49] <MikeSmith> anyway I think God was focusing on helping you get over your cold instead of listening to prayers from Mitt
  1097. # [20:50] <divya> HAHAHAHHAA
  1098. # [20:50] <divya> this might make me a believer again.
  1099. # [20:50] * divya makes note to visit temples next time in India
  1100. # [20:51] <MikeSmith> I can take you to some good temples when you visit here
  1101. # [20:51] <MikeSmith> get you some of the voodoo trinkets they sell at temples here
  1102. # [20:52] <MikeSmith> problem is those are almost all for traffic safety or getting good grades at school
  1103. # [20:52] <divya> MikeSmith: naiceee
  1104. # [20:52] <divya> all the more reason to find excuses to visit japan
  1105. # [20:52] <divya> traffic safety trinklets would be good.
  1106. # [20:53] <divya> i assume all mechanical means of transportation must give way to pedestrians.
  1107. # [20:53] <MikeSmith> heh
  1108. # [20:53] <divya> which is not a good assumption when the traffic signal is red for pedestrians
  1109. # [20:57] <MikeSmith> divya: mostly here the taxi drivers pretend they can't see you
  1110. # [20:57] <MikeSmith> so you have to kick their mirrors off with you boots
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  1112. # [20:57] <MikeSmith> to teach them a lesson
  1113. # [20:57] <MikeSmith> because they roll their windows up when they see you coming
  1114. # [20:58] <MikeSmith> all right friends we have a Disposition of Comments
  1115. # [20:58] <MikeSmith> of sorts
  1116. # [20:58] <MikeSmith> http://w3c.github.com/html/CR/doc/
  1117. # [20:59] <MikeSmith> FWIW
  1118. # [20:59] <divya> ahahah MikeSmith
  1119. # [20:59] <divya> what the what is a DOC
  1120. # [21:00] <MikeSmith> shows how many comments we responded to during Last Call
  1121. # [21:00] <MikeSmith> and how we responded
  1122. # [21:00] <MikeSmith> where "we" equals Hixie
  1123. # [21:00] <divya> ahaha
  1124. # [21:00] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@94.234.170.174)
  1125. # [21:01] <MikeSmith> in this case it shows that Hixie is agreeable 38.75% of the time and disagreeable 61.25% of the time
  1126. # [21:01] <MikeSmith> which pretty much matches my anecdotal experience closly
  1127. # [21:01] <divya> AHAHAH
  1128. # [21:02] <karlcow> divya: Disposition Of Comments. :)
  1129. # [21:02] <divya> ya ya i know that karlcow which is why i was asking. coz i didnt know what that meant
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  1131. # [21:02] <karlcow> the nightmare of working groups
  1132. # [21:03] <divya> ahaha
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  1135. # [21:09] <Hixie> ok i have a shed here, i figure we'll put bikes in it
  1136. # [21:09] <Hixie> anyone got an opinion on the colour?
  1137. # [21:09] <Hixie> specifically:
  1138. # [21:09] <Hixie> what should this ImageBitmap interface be called
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  1140. # [21:10] <Hixie> it's an interface with initially no properties, though i expect we'll eventually add stuff like height, width, maybe some methods
  1141. # [21:10] <Hixie> it represents bitmap data, i.e. image, that can be used for drawing with minimal delay
  1142. # [21:10] <Hixie> and it can be copied around over postMessage()
  1143. # [21:10] <Hixie> it's the replacement for HTMLImageElement in workers
  1144. # [21:11] * Joins: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251)
  1145. # [21:11] <Hixie> candidate colours so far are "Bitmap", "BitmapImage", and "ImageBitmap". I think I prefer the second of these; the former kind of implies you can edit the pixels.
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  1148. # [21:11] <annevk> hober: I want them to fix UTS #46
  1149. # [21:12] <annevk> hober: In particular I want the algorithm there to be clearer
  1150. # [21:13] <annevk> hober: I need something which you pass the domain string, which allows ASCII characters such as "_" and prolly ";", and then returns a list of ASCII labels, with either the last label being empty for a trailing dot, or an explicit trailing dot flag
  1151. # [21:13] <annevk> hober: (or of course an error of some kind)
  1152. # [21:13] <Hixie> annevk: you can only get a Blob out of XHR once the download is complete, right?
  1153. # [21:13] <annevk> hober: Mark Davis has probably seen this in his inbox
  1154. # [21:13] <annevk> Hixie: that is currently the case
  1155. # [21:13] <Hixie> k
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  1157. # [21:14] <MikeSmith> Hixie: in your party-rocking survey I vote for "BitMap"
  1158. # [21:15] <Ms2ger> That sounds like something else to me
  1159. # [21:15] <MikeSmith> what else would it be?
  1160. # [21:15] <Hixie> slightlyoff: i have an object which needs to represent something that can only be created once the data for it is available (don't want the object to be constructed while it's pending network I/O, so that the object can be used synchronously)
  1161. # [21:15] <Ms2ger> A map of bits
  1162. # [21:15] <Ms2ger> /flags
  1163. # [21:15] <annevk> Hixie: for HTMLImageElement you know the data is available, same for HTMLCanvasElement and such
  1164. # [21:16] <annevk> Hixie: so those can be done sync and via a constructor
  1165. # [21:16] <Hixie> slightlyoff: this means that when the data for this object is coming from the network, its construction has to be done async, so for some of the ways it is created, it needs a factory method
  1166. # [21:16] <annevk> Hixie: I think for Blob we should have ImageBitmap.create(blob) (static method)
  1167. # [21:16] <Hixie> slightlyoff: my question is, which do you think is more important: providing a consistent way of building this object for all mechanisms, or providing a real constructor for the ones where it's not necessary to be async?
  1168. # [21:16] <Hixie> annevk: HTMLImageElement can be delayed on network I/O.
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  1170. # [21:17] <annevk> Hixie: you'd throw or something if load has not dispatched yet
  1171. # [21:17] <Hixie> i'm leaning towards consistent mechanism, otherwise the error handling has to be drastically different
  1172. # [21:17] <Hixie> annevk: that's lame.
  1173. # [21:17] <annevk> Hixie: that's how drawImage() already works
  1174. # [21:18] <Hixie> annevk: the way it works in practice is that you want for the image's onload.
  1175. # [21:18] <Hixie> annevk: which means you have this object hanging around that you could use to paint, but which you're avoiding using because if you do it'll fail.
  1176. # [21:20] <annevk> hmm mkay; I still prefer ImageBitmap.create(..., callback) over the factory thing though
  1177. # [21:20] <Hixie> that would be inconsistent with, like, the entire rest of the platform
  1178. # [21:21] <annevk> putting factory methods on the global object is not necessarily consistent either, and static methods are used on e.g. URL
  1179. # [21:21] <Hixie> URL is new and wildly inconsistent with the platform :-)
  1180. # [21:22] <annevk> not much platform without them :p
  1181. # [21:22] <Hixie> ?
  1182. # [21:22] <Hixie> i mean the object
  1183. # [21:22] * annevk was using a smiley
  1184. # [21:23] <Hixie> k :-P
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  1186. # [21:23] <Hixie> anyway really my question is "consistency for life" or "constructors where possible"
  1187. # [21:24] <Hixie> i guess the other option is toImageBitmap(callback) on all these objects
  1188. # [21:24] <annevk> (I'll also note Element.create() has been floating around)
  1189. # [21:24] <Hixie> yeah but that seems DOA
  1190. # [21:25] <annevk> I'd be interested what slightlyoff has to say about this
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  1192. # [21:25] <annevk> It's kinda annoying to wait for load I suppose, but otherwise you have to wait for the callback...
  1193. # [21:27] <Hixie> you'll have to most of hte time anyway
  1194. # [21:27] <Hixie> since most of the time you'll be using either HTMLImageElement or Blob
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  1197. # [21:29] <Hixie> annevk: btw instead of Element.create I now use http://junkyard.damowmow.com/516
  1198. # [21:29] <Hixie> annevk: which i find works rather nicely
  1199. # [21:30] <Hixie> E('element', { title: "attributes" }) returns an element with an attribute
  1200. # [21:30] <Hixie> attribute dict is optional
  1201. # [21:30] <TabAtkins> Hixie: The context of the question about SharedWorkers was if that would help us with the more complex use-cases around the "kill onbeforeunload" jihad.
  1202. # [21:31] <Hixie> annevk: E('element', E('anotherElement')); returns an element with a child
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  1204. # [21:31] <Hixie> annevk: E('element', 'text') returns an element with a child text node "text"
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  1208. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yes, I use that too. What proved useful was to make the thing fully n-ary, with complete array flattening.
  1209. # [21:32] <Hixie> so e.g. E('p', 'Hello ', E('a', { href: "/" }, 'World'), '!'); is like <p>Hello <a href="/">World</a>!</p>
  1210. # [21:32] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah
  1211. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> So you can pass as many arguments as you want, *and* group them arbitrarily into arrays.
  1212. # [21:32] <Hixie> yup
  1213. # [21:32] <Hixie> i don't recall if i support multiple arrays, but i agree that'd be a good thing too
  1214. # [21:33] <Hixie> (and F(...) is like E() but returns a fragment instead of an element)
  1215. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> Though I ended up with El.div(...)
  1216. # [21:33] <annevk> Hixie: looks simple enough to script too... It would be nice to add something like that, but we can't just take up window.E I think :)
  1217. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> HTML.div would be fine too.
  1218. # [21:33] <Hixie> ah, yes, i do support multiple arrays. neat.
  1219. # [21:33] <arv> What methods may throw TYPE_MISMATCH_ERR? Should it be deprecated in favor of TypeError?
  1220. # [21:34] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah, doing that would be interesting, and would mean you could easily do SVG. and MathML.
  1221. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  1222. # [21:34] <annevk> arv: yeah maybe, if you think it's worth it
  1223. # [21:34] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric@17.212.152.104) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  1224. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> And we already have a CSS global sitting around for this purpose, too.
  1225. # [21:34] <annevk> arv: file a bug on DOM?
  1226. # [21:35] <annevk> arv: I can do a query
  1227. # [21:35] <arv> annevk: thanks
  1228. # [21:35] <arv> annevk: It is used in a whole lot of places in WebKit but they all look like TypeErrors
  1229. # [21:35] <Hixie> ok well back to ImageBitmap, I'm gonna stick all these factories on the global object and see how many people complain
  1230. # [21:36] <annevk> arv: I bet HTML uses it a lot
  1231. # [21:36] <annevk> anyway, gotta run
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  1233. # [21:36] <Ms2ger> Hixie, hmm, I don't seem to find email about your canvas changes in March
  1234. # [21:37] <Ms2ger> I don't have to go look into public-html archives, do I? :)
  1235. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Do you just discriminate the second argument based on being an Object, for determining whether it's an attr bag or a child?
  1236. # [21:37] <Hixie> Ms2ger: you mean v3?
  1237. # [21:38] <Ms2ger> ... maybe?
  1238. # [21:38] <Ms2ger> I would've guessed v5
  1239. # [21:38] <Hixie> TabAtkins: (typeof attributes != 'string') && (!(attributes instanceof Node))
  1240. # [21:38] <Hixie> Ms2ger: uh yeah. v5.
  1241. # [21:38] <Hixie> whatever
  1242. # [21:38] <Hixie> v some number.
  1243. # [21:38] <Ms2ger> Unless you just happen to remember if lineDashOffset is the thing we implement as mozDashOffset
  1244. # [21:39] <Hixie> Ms2ger: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2012Mar/0269.html
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  1246. # [21:39] <Hixie> Ms2ger: it's similar, but not identical, iirc.
  1247. # [21:39] <Hixie> Ms2ger: (based on feedback from mozilla that we shouldn't do what mozDashOffset did, also iirc)
  1248. # [21:40] <Hixie> TabAtkins: so just checking it's not a valid child, basically
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  1254. # [21:47] <zcorpan_> Hixie: instanceof Node fails cross-window
  1255. # [21:47] <Hixie> close enough for my purposes
  1256. # [21:48] * Ms2ger goes back to marking <main> emails as read
  1257. # [21:53] <Ms2ger> Hixie, this is one for you: http://i.minus.com/ibx7mxJlLVaXp5.gif
  1258. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> Hixie: And not an array either, presumably?
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  1267. # [22:14] <gavinp> Dumb question: how do I create a page in the wiki?
  1268. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> Make a link to a non-existent page. Follow that link.
  1269. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> Then edit the page you end up at.
  1270. # [22:14] <gavinp> OK. I just navigated to a non existent page
  1271. # [22:14] <annevk> or just URL hack it
  1272. # [22:15] <gavinp> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Link_prerender_events
  1273. # [22:15] <gavinp> As annevk suggested
  1274. # [22:15] <gavinp> and there was no edit option presented to me.
  1275. # [22:15] * Quits: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1276. # [22:15] <gavinp> Does Gavinp lack the mojo?
  1277. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> Don't url-hack it, because then there's no guarantee that you'll remember to actually link the page from somewhere. ^_^
  1278. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> Free-floating pages are the death of wikis.
  1279. # [22:15] <gavinp> OK. I will stop URL hacking, since I love TabAtkins.
  1280. # [22:15] <annevk> gavinp: left from search there should be "create"
  1281. # [22:15] <annevk> gavinp: as long as you add a category URL hacking is fine
  1282. # [22:16] <gavinp> Here's the complete text: "Link prerender events
  1283. # [22:16] <gavinp> There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs."
  1284. # [22:16] <annevk> also, pretty sure GPHemsley and I track stuff that's being added and make sense out of it
  1285. # [22:17] <divya> annevk: ahahaha glad to know your views are being expanded (w.r.t chat conversation)
  1286. # [22:18] <annevk> gavinp: http://html5.org/temp/whatwg-wiki-create.png
  1287. # [22:19] <annevk> gavinp: if you don't see that, I can create it for you I guess
  1288. # [22:21] <gavinp> I do not see that. That's what I have been trying to say.
  1289. # [22:22] <gavinp> Please create it for me, or, I'd prefer to have the mojo so that I don't come beg each time.
  1290. # [22:22] <gavinp> But, I doubt I do this often.
  1291. # [22:22] <gavinp> I am "Gavinp"
  1292. # [22:23] <annevk> gavinp: sorry about that
  1293. # [22:23] <annevk> there's a page now, hopefully GPHemsley upgrades your account
  1294. # [22:23] <annevk> I have no idea how to do that and couldn't find it either
  1295. # [22:23] <gavinp> Outstanding, thanks!
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  1304. # [22:39] <GPHemsley> gavinp: Ah, one of the requires to become an autoconfirmed user is to have a minimum number of edits. (Only autoconfirmed users can create new pages.)
  1305. # [22:39] <GPHemsley> gavinp: I forget whether the minimum is 1 or 5.
  1306. # [22:39] <GPHemsley> gavinp: If it's 1, then just creating the dead link should be enough.
  1307. # [22:39] <GPHemsley> gavinp: But there is also a time aspect to being autoconfirmed.
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  1311. # [22:42] <GPHemsley> gavinp: You may also be at a disadvantage because your account is older. (Counter-intuitive, I know.)
  1312. # [22:43] <annevk> GPHemsley: because we vet who's registered I think we should allow those registered to do most things
  1313. # [22:44] <annevk> GPHemsley: or is there some hole in that reasoning?
  1314. # [22:44] <GPHemsley> annevk: It's a bit of a cushion in case we turn registration back on.
  1315. # [22:44] <GPHemsley> annevk: But I don't necessarily disagree with you.
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  1318. # [22:46] <GPHemsley> As soon as I remember how, I'll make gavinp a permanent autoconfirmed user.
  1319. # [22:50] * GPHemsley wonders if he made a permission change that made the option disappear.
  1320. # [22:51] <GPHemsley> Apparently I did.
  1321. # [22:51] <GPHemsley> >_<
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  1326. # [22:52] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i don't check if it's an array, but that's just a bug.
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  1329. # [22:56] <GPHemsley> annevk: OK, administrator will now see the "User rights management" link restored to the Special pages page.
  1330. # [22:56] <GPHemsley> +s
  1331. # [22:57] <annevk> IRI WG may have given up on the WHATWG, but I thought I'd give it one last shot: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2012Nov/0015.html
  1332. # [22:57] <annevk> GPHemsley: cool
  1333. # [22:59] <Hixie> annevk: not saying you should do this, but if you want to get them on board, what might help is documenting what software you have tested, what software you intend to test but haven't, and what software you haven't tested and are unlikely to test
  1334. # [23:00] <Hixie> annevk: not sure exactly how to test a lot of this, e.g. URLs are used all over the place in the SIP stack, but I dunno how you'd test a SIP client's or server's URL handling exactly
  1335. # [23:00] <annevk> I mainly want to stop misrepresenting my position
  1336. # [23:00] <Hixie> good luck with that
  1337. # [23:00] <annevk> want them*
  1338. # [23:00] <annevk> yeah, too much 386 I guess
  1339. # [23:00] <Hixie> people still fight strawmen over what i do with html :-)
  1340. # [23:01] <GPHemsley> gavinp: You are now a permanent autoconfirmed user. Enjoy!
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  1342. # [23:01] <annevk> And I should test more than wget/curl and browsers I suppose, but then there's enough difference there to converge first
  1343. # [23:03] <Hixie> i suspect they're all basically sharing the same relatively small set of URL parsing libraries, and that it's therefore possible to converge somewhat reasonably
  1344. # [23:03] <Hixie> but it's always possible that e.g. the SIP world's handling of URLs is so far from the browser's world, that WebRTC browsers are going to have to end up with two different URL parsers.
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  1346. # [23:03] <Hixie> that would be worth discovering and speccing, maybe by calling them different things
  1347. # [23:03] <Hixie> no idea how to test the SIP side of that, really, though
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  1382. # [23:34] <Hixie> bikeshed painters, if any of you have a better idea for the name of the object that you get using getContext('foo') that represents a transferable <canvas> proxy, let me know
  1383. # [23:34] <Hixie> also if you can think of a better term than "worker" for the argument to getContext()
  1384. # [23:34] <Hixie> right now i'm using "CanvasTransferableRenderingContext" which isn't ideal
  1385. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> How do you know what kind of context it'll be if you start out with getContext('worker')?
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  1387. # [23:35] <Hixie> the object you get back itself has a getContext() method
  1388. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> Oh, weird.
  1389. # [23:35] <Hixie> see http://junkyard.damowmow.com/515
  1390. # [23:35] <Hixie> and yeah, if you have any better ideas for this i'm definitely all ears
  1391. # [23:35] <Hixie> i'm not sure how else to do it
  1392. # [23:35] <Hixie> the idea is to be able to have a worker paint to a canvas
  1393. # [23:35] <Hixie> but you can't send the canvas to the worker
  1394. # [23:36] <Hixie> so you have to send a kind of proxy object
  1395. # [23:36] <TabAtkins> I think someone already shot down the idea of just making Canvas transferable, and turn into the neutered thing when passed to a worker?
  1396. # [23:36] <Hixie> the main problem with doing that is that i'm scared of whehter it'll block up from ever adding the DOM to workers
  1397. # [23:37] <Hixie> because transfering another element would presumably take it out of its home DOM
  1398. # [23:37] <Hixie> but we'd be stuck with transfering a canvas not doing that
  1399. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> Ah, true.
  1400. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> Why can't you make the context object transferable?
  1401. # [23:37] <Hixie> too much state
  1402. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> Hm, that makes sense. You'd have to copy over the entire stack of context data.
  1403. # [23:38] <Hixie> e.g. i don't even want to consider how much pain it'd be to transfer a live 3D GL context around between processes
  1404. # [23:38] <Hixie> bad enough that we're requiring implementations have a way to push instructions across process boundaries
  1405. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> Actually, from my conversations with Greg (one fo the webgl people, and my cubemate), that's not problematic to him.
  1406. # [23:38] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.19.229.getinternet.no)
  1407. # [23:39] <Hixie> good, maybe he can convince some of the others ;-)
  1408. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> He just wants a way to hook up a canvas on the DOM end to a context on the Worker end, so that you can blit across.
  1409. # [23:39] <Hixie> my plan is to have a commit() method on the CanvasTransferableRenderingContext that tells the UA "ok, now apply all of that to the context"
  1410. # [23:40] <Hixie> the on-screen context, that is
  1411. # [23:40] <Hixie> s/context/surface/
  1412. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Actually, though, I think your idea is what he's asking for. You get a canvas hooked up to a dummy bitmap, which can only be manipulated in teh worker.
  1413. # [23:40] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Quit: Leaving)
  1414. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Right?
  1415. # [23:40] <Hixie> well
  1416. # [23:41] <Hixie> you can describe it in various ways depending on how you look at it
  1417. # [23:41] <Hixie> but basically yes, except there's also a link to a <canvas> in the Document that you can push to
  1418. # [23:41] <Hixie> if you want to
  1419. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's what I meant.
  1420. # [23:41] <Hixie> (push to without using postMessage())
  1421. # [23:41] <Hixie> i may also provide a way to get a context that is just entirely in the worker
  1422. # [23:41] <Hixie> on which commit() does nothing
  1423. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> You have a canvas on the document side which is solely a dumb bitmap, can't be manipulated directly. It's just a rectangle into the Worker world, which is doing the actual drawing on the context.
  1424. # [23:42] <Hixie> yeah
  1425. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> Yeah, both of those are good.
  1426. # [23:42] <Hixie> you'll probably be able to grab a frame of the canvas bitmap from the main thread
  1427. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> Yeah, you can always draw that canvas onto another canvas.
  1428. # [23:42] <Hixie> which grabs a frame at some arbitrary call to commit()
  1429. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> What's the purpose of ImageBitmap here? I'm not sure I understand it from these notes.
  1430. # [23:45] <Hixie> something you can pass drawImage() in a worker
  1431. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> Can't you just pass an ImageData?
  1432. # [23:47] <TabAtkins> I presume you mean for the Document to send something to the worker, that it can use for drawing?
  1433. # [23:47] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@192.150.22.55) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1434. # [23:47] <Hixie> well whatever solution we use, has to be something you can populate lazily. ImageData can be implemented lazily, but only so long as the author doesn't accidentally poke at the actual pixel data.
  1435. # [23:47] <Hixie> and it's really easy to accidentally do that.
  1436. # [23:47] <Hixie> e.g. dumping state to the console
  1437. # [23:48] <Hixie> so you really want an ImageData that specifically doesn't expose any pixels
  1438. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> Oh, interesting. You want it to be lazy so that it's cheaper to send to the Worker?
  1439. # [23:48] <Hixie> yeah
  1440. # [23:49] <annevk> Hixie: ImageBlob maybe?
  1441. # [23:49] <annevk> but I guess it wouldn't implement the same stuff so that's not really good
  1442. # [23:49] <Hixie> TabAtkins: and back again; one common use case will be for the worker to do the drawing, then grab a frame to send back to the document so that it can be drawn at the same time as something on the DOM is moved
  1443. # [23:49] <Hixie> annevk: it's not a Blob, yeah. Also that sounds like it'd include SVG.
  1444. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> Okay, I see. And if it's lazy, you can just late-compute the actual data in the Document, drawing directly from the Worker's information (or reverse), without exposing transfer details in a detectable way.
  1445. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> s/detectable/unsafe/
  1446. # [23:50] <Hixie> yeah
  1447. # [23:50] <Hixie> you can in fact just do it all on the GPU
  1448. # [23:50] <Hixie> at least, i assume so :-)
  1449. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> Yeah, okay.
  1450. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> (I think so, yeah.)
  1451. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> I'd like to run this through Greg next time he shows up in the office.
  1452. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> And I'll think on the names I guess. ^_^
  1453. # [23:51] <Hixie> i'm speccing the strawman so hopefully it'll be something concrete people can comment on
  1454. # [23:53] * Quits: kanzure (~kanzure@131.252.130.248) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1455. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> Okay, I think I'm okay with this, and I'll give you concrete feedback from the dude who pesters me about this exact subject every month or so soon. ^_^
  1456. # [23:56] <Hixie> :-)
  1457. # [23:56] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
  1458. # [23:57] <annevk> getContext returning a <canvas>-like object seems a bit weird
  1459. # [23:57] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:3c51:fc9b:e953:af6f)
  1460. # [23:57] <Hixie> this whole thing is weird
  1461. # [23:57] <annevk> doing getWorkerCanvas() or some such seems cleaner
  1462. # [23:58] <Hixie> what's the difference?
  1463. # [23:58] <Hixie> it's just another method that's mutually exclusive
  1464. # [23:58] <Hixie> it's semantically identical
  1465. # Session Close: Thu Nov 08 00:00:00 2012

The end :)