/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-11-08 / end

Options:

1. # Session Start: Thu Nov 08 00:00:00 2012
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] <annevk> makes it clear what's actually going on
4. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> I'm with annevk, fwiw. getContext() doesn't normally return something that you can further call getContext() on.
5. # [00:01] <annevk> could even do new WorkerCanvas(HTMLCanvasElement)
6. # [00:01] <Hixie> TabAtkins: getContext() returns one of two objects, that have basically nothing in common with each other. I'm not sure one can draw conclusions from that.
7. # [00:01] <Hixie> annevk: constructors with side-effects on the arguments are weird.
8. # [00:02] <Hixie> also, it's not just a worker canvas.
9. # [00:02] <Hixie> you can use this in the main thread too.
10. # [00:02] <Hixie> it's just a disconnected context.
11. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> Hixie: They have plenty in common! They're both objects that represent how you can push pixels onto the canvas.
12. # [00:02] <Hixie> (for some definition of "disconnected")
13. # [00:03] <Hixie> TabAtkins: gl's doesn't really push pixels, it pushes scenes that then turn into pixels. :-)
14. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> Same difference.
15. # [00:04] <Hixie> it's not that far from this new object, either
16. # [00:05] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
17. # [00:06] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.19.229.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
18. # [00:07] * Joins: reinaldob (~reinaldob@201.74.207.100)
19. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> The new object exists solely to link up the canvas with the eventual context that will be created from it. It's like a deferred context or something.
20. # [00:09] <Hixie> a proxy of sorts
21. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Yup.
22. # [00:09] <Hixie> except it's not even that
23. # [00:09] <Hixie> it's a representation of the canvas
24. # [00:09] * Quits: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:e8db:6a9a:630:8a2d) (Quit: jonlee)
25. # [00:10] * Joins: chriseppstein (~chrisepps@99-6-85-4.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
26. # [00:10] <Hixie> a context factory proxy context
27. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> It's like "var proxy = canvas.getContext.bind(canvas);" or something - just yanking the getContext method out of the canvas, so that you'll still get the right link-up when it's eventually called.
28. # [00:10] <Hixie> yeah, more or less
29. # [00:10] * Quits: Somatt_wrk_ (~somattwrk@darkstar2.fullsix.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
30. # [00:10] <Hixie> creating it also makes height and width no longer work on the canvas
31. # [00:11] * Joins: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:ec2a:6cdc:a416:683c)
32. # [00:11] <Hixie> and prevents getContext() from working again
33. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the various fiddly necessary details.
34. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> Anyway, I emailed Greg so I wouldn't have to wait for him to come in.
35. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> He only gets into the office once or twice a week.
36. # [00:14] <Hixie> another question:
37. # [00:14] * Quits: reinaldob (~reinaldob@201.74.207.100) (Remote host closed the connection)
38. # [00:15] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
39. # [00:15] <Hixie> if i do: var img = new Image(); img.src = 'a'; var bitmap = createImageBitmap(img, cb); img.src='b';
40. # [00:15] <Hixie> should cb be invoked with null, an ImageBitmap for 'a', or an ImageBitmap for 'b'?
41. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> Why you gotta bug me with race conditions.
42. # [00:15] <Hixie> what if the setting of src to 'b' happens in a 0ms setTimeout?
43. # [00:16] <Hixie> this isn't really a race condition, the timing is all defined
44. # [00:16] <Hixie> i just need to know what we want to have happen
45. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Ideally, with 'a'. Setting src is synchronous already. It would be confusing if you could ask it to create an imageBitmap and then set what image for it to use *afterwards*.
46. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> Also, it would be pretty cool if createImageBitmap took a string, and acted as if an <img> was loaded with that as its src.
47. # [00:17] <Hixie> right now if you do var img = new Image(); img.src = 'a'; img.src='b';, per spec, only one HTTP request is made, and it's for 'a'.
48. # [00:17] <Hixie> er
49. # [00:17] <Hixie> for 'b', not 'a'
50. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Because you dont' start the load until the next microtask or whatever?
51. # [00:18] <Hixie> and if you do a timeout to set 'b', and getting 'a' required a DNS lookup, then you'll probably still only get one request, for 'b'
52. # [00:18] <Hixie> every time you set src or srcset it resets the img element and starts the fetch afresh, and the fetch itself isn't started until the event loop spins.
53. # [00:18] <Hixie> (stable state)
54. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Hmm. Personally, I still stick with my answer - I think it should snapshot the image that you pass to it at that moment.
55. # [00:20] <Hixie> i'm thinking maybe the way to go is to just get the URL out of the <img> and fetch that independent of the <img>
56. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
57. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Though if the bitmap is already loaded, you can of course skip the fetch itself.
58. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> But that can be an impl detail.
59. # [00:21] <Hixie> yeah
60. # [00:21] <Hixie> well, it's a detectable detail
61. # [00:21] <Hixie> but yeah
62. # [00:21] <Hixie> that's a lot of functionality to duplicate in the spec, but it does mean we can support createImageBitmap(url)
63. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Only insofar as caches are detectable, right?
64. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> Well, if the same url would result in different images at different times, it would be different.
65. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> But again, caching.
66. # [00:22] <Hixie> similar to caching, yes
67. # [00:22] * Quits: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:ec2a:6cdc:a416:683c) (Quit: jonlee)
68. # [00:22] <Hixie> <img> elements have their own special cache though
69. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> Ah, weird.
70. # [00:23] <Hixie> yeah
71. # [00:23] <Hixie> hmmmm
72. # [00:23] <Hixie> also, some UAs don't fetch images immediately
73. # [00:23] <Hixie> so we'd have to decide, in those UAs, whether calling createImageBitmap(img) would fire img.onload
74. # [00:24] <Hixie> or if the img would remain not loaded
75. # [00:24] * Joins: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:406c:3dbb:9f77:fe5e)
76. # [00:24] <Hixie> with the fetch being done independently
77. # [00:24] <Hixie> hmmmmmmmm.
78. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Interesting question! I lean toward loading it.
79. # [00:24] * Joins: reinaldob (~reinaldob@201.74.207.100)
80. # [00:24] <Hixie> another problem is crossorigin=""
81. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Ah, yeah.
82. # [00:24] <Hixie> if we did createImageBitmap(url) we'd have to provide a separate argument for that
83. # [00:25] <Hixie> and then duplicate all that work
84. # [00:25] <Hixie> or factor it out
85. # [00:25] <Hixie> anne's suggestion earlier is sounding better and better
86. # [00:25] <Hixie> (just bail if the img isn't loaded yet)
87. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> Hah.
88. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> Would be nice to be able to load an image directly in the worker.
89. # [00:26] <Hixie> well you can do that with XHR
90. # [00:26] <Hixie> XHR the image as a blob, then createImageBitmap(blob)
91. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> Ah, indeed.
92. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> That would be why you were asking Anne earlier about adding 'image' as an XHR type.
93. # [00:27] <Hixie> you know, if we send <img> packing and require that the data be fetched, we wouldn't really need to do anything asynchronously
94. # [00:27] <Hixie> and we could make slightlyoff happy and have a constructor instead
95. # [00:27] * Quits: reinaldob (~reinaldob@201.74.207.100) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
96. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> The blob case still needs asynchrony, no?
97. # [00:27] * Joins: reinaldob (~reinaldob@201.74.207.100)
98. # [00:27] <Hixie> can you get a blob before you have its data?
99. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> I dunno. Haven't worked with blobs yet.
100. # [00:28] <Hixie> what's the maximum latency on getting Blob's data? wider web? NFS? disk i/o? ram?
101. # [00:28] <Hixie> if it's disk i/o or worse, that's a problem, indeed
102. # [00:29] <Hixie> based on FileReader, i guess it's disk i/o or worse
103. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> Yeha, I think it's disk i/o.
104. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> The blob is like imagebitmap - it represents, abstractly, a bunch of data that might be expensive to fetch/transfer eagerly.
105. # [00:31] * Joins: dgorbik (~dgorbik@2620:149:4:304:5402:7be5:7073:badd)
106. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> No reason why its latency couldn't be wider web, either.
107. # [00:31] <Hixie> yeah but imagebitmap is intended to have max latency O(GPU)
108. # [00:31] <Hixie> Blobs know their length with latency O(RAM)
109. # [00:32] <Hixie> but presumably not their data, yeah
110. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Actually, blob.size was a mistake in the API that we can't take back now.
111. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> It should have been asynchronous too.
112. # [00:32] <Hixie> indeed
113. # [00:32] <dgorbik> Hello everybody! Which pseudo-elements use property whitelists? I would like to see examples of the implementation in the code for those.
114. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> ::first-line and ::first-letter.
115. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Implementations are... varied and tricky.
116. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> dgorbik: The rule of thumb is that, if the pseudo-element is a normal, independent box, it can take all properties. If it wraps existing content (particularly, in ways that might violate the tree structure of HTML), it has a whitelist.
117. # [00:34] <Hixie> blob is easier than img because once created, it can't change identity
118. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Right.
119. # [00:35] <Hixie> i think sanity is going o require that <img> has to be loaded before it can be used here
120. # [00:35] <Hixie> anne wins again
121. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> That's fine with me.
122. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> Waiting for img.onload to send the data to the worker seems okay.
123. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> You'll have to wait for that at some point anyway.
124. # [00:36] <Hixie> yeah, it's not that i have a problem with
125. # [00:36] <Hixie> it's anne being right!
126. # [00:36] <Hixie> :-P
127. # [00:36] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
128. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> This is a major problem.
129. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> We can't be seen agreeing with a terrorist.
130. # [00:36] <Hixie> true dat
131. # [00:36] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
132. # [00:37] <dgorbik> TabAtkins: thanks. Is features.usesFirstLineRules related to those?
133. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> dgorbik: No clue! If you're talking about Firefox, I'm a WebKit hacker.
134. # [00:37] <dgorbik> that's in webkit
135. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> Then still, dunno. Our ::first-line implementation is crazy, and I'm never ever touching it.
136. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> (Granted, I'm not sure how sane any implementation of ::first-line can be.)
137. # [00:39] <dgorbik> Thanks, I will look closer at this
138. # [00:41] <Hixie> ok the object you get from canvas is no called TransferableCanvasRenderingContextFactory, which is obviously not a name I can seriously keep in the spec
139. # [00:41] <Hixie> so painters, your input is more than ever welcome now
140. # [00:42] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
141. # [00:42] <Hixie> if you don't help me get this thing down, people will start saying i hang out with java programmers
142. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> Hahaha
143. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> CanvasDelayedContext
144. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> CanvasNullContext
145. # [00:43] <dglazkov> annevk: yo
146. # [00:43] <Hixie> if we're not returning it from getContext(), it probably shouldn't be called *Context
147. # [00:43] <Hixie> though if we are, those are good names
148. # [00:44] <Hixie> CanvasDelayedContext in particular
149. # [00:46] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
150. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> If it's delivered from a different method, CanvasProxy.
151. # [00:47] <Hixie> yeah, that could work
152. # [00:48] <hober> dglazkov: he went to bed
153. # [00:48] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@frbg-5f732618.pool.mediaWays.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
154. # [00:48] <dglazkov> hober: wat
155. # [00:49] <dglazkov> okay
156. # [00:49] <dglazkov> timezones suck
157. # [00:50] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
158. # [00:51] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
159. # [00:55] * Quits: jsoncorwin (~textual@c-67-170-235-108.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
160. # [00:56] * Quits: divya (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
161. # [00:58] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
162. # [01:11] * Joins: nimbu_ (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
163. # [01:12] * nimbu_ is now known as divya
164. # [01:16] * Joins: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-arbrtgaglrldkrqo)
165. # [01:16] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@204.153.192.4)
166. # [01:17] * Joins: RobbertAtWork (~robbertat@212.238.236.229)
167. # [01:17] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@2001:df8:0:32:f056:d418:f7fc:43e1) (Remote host closed the connection)
168. # [01:17] <GPHemsley> Argh, Apache/DreamHost. When I say "unset Content-Header, I do NOT mean "send Content-Type: text/plain"
169. # [01:18] <GPHemsley> +"
170. # [01:18] * Quits: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-arbrtgaglrldkrqo) (Client Quit)
171. # [01:18] * Joins: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-ijxynfahwhmhggrc)
172. # [01:21] * Quits: RobbertAtWork (~robbertat@212.238.236.229) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
173. # [01:23] <GPHemsley> Firefox, Chrome, and Opera sniff PDFs; Safari doesn't
174. # [01:23] <GPHemsley> at least, not with just '%PDF-'
175. # [01:24] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@2001:df8:0:16:b95d:b536:d255:ddb9)
176. # [01:26] * Quits: reinaldob (~reinaldob@201.74.207.100) (Remote host closed the connection)
177. # [01:28] <GPHemsley> ARGH.
178. # [01:28] <GPHemsley> This testing is going to be impossible if the server insists on ignoring my directives.
179. # [01:30] * Quits: j_wright (~jwright@ip70-173-176-222.lv.lv.cox.net) (Quit: [A] that love means death I realized too soon ...)
180. # [01:31] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@ppp-110-168-212-16.revip5.asianet.co.th)
181. # [01:32] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@75-144-246-6-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
182. # [01:32] <zewt> sure would be great if firefox's options ui wasn't in the dark ages
183. # [01:32] <zewt> spending more than a minute looking through every screen searching for the cookie display heh
184. # [01:34] <zewt> what the hell? they changed the cookie button to something that's not a button at all, which makes it unfindable since i was looking at the buttons, not things that look like links
185. # [01:34] <zewt> and serious question: how is it 2012, and popunders are still possible
186. # [01:35] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-86.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
187. # [01:35] <zewt> they're easily the single most user-hostile abusive things that websites do, and i'm pretty sure there are literally 0 legitimate non-abusive uses for doing it
188. # [01:37] <zewt> wow, seriously: firefox's UI for opening the cookies display is totally different depending on an unrelated option
189. # [01:37] <zewt> (which is why I couldn't find it--I was in a clean profile, with that unrelated option set to something else)
190. # [01:38] * GPHemsley mumbles something about stupid .htaccess rules.
191. # [01:39] * Quits: thisgeek (~chris@cpe-204-210-135-55.hvc.res.rr.com) (Quit: thisgeek)
192. # [01:40] <GPHemsley> ah, 500 error, even better
193. # [01:46] * Quits: tomasf (~tom@c-44dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: tomasf)
194. # [01:47] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
195. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> Anyone know Hg well enough to help me unwedge my repo, before I just nuke it from orbit?
196. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> I didn't pull before I started editting, and the commits hanging in the ether conflicted with the local changes I just made to a file. Merge conflict, obviously.
197. # [01:49] * Joins: thisgeek (~chris@cpe-204-210-135-55.hvc.res.rr.com)
198. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> I try to hg merge, then hg resolve -am. Now, if I try to hg merge, it tells me I can't because I have uncommited changes. If I try to hg commit, it tells me I can't partially commit a merge.
199. # [01:49] * Quits: jonlee|afk (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:406c:3dbb:9f77:fe5e) (Quit: jonlee|afk)
200. # [01:50] <TabAtkins> Ah, got myself unwedged.
201. # [01:50] <zewt> that's what i like about plain old svn: i just never hit stupid weird things like that
202. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> I never hit stupid things like that in Git, either. Hg is just slightly worse at everything.
203. # [01:57] * Joins: lilmonkey` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
204. # [01:58] <roc> it is possible to get confused in git
205. # [01:59] <TabAtkins> Yo, roc, am I being dumb in the thread with Dirk, or is he just confused?
206. # [01:59] <roc> of course git advocates will say "oh, you just do <MAGIC> to get out of that"
207. # [01:59] <roc> TabAtkins: you're perfectly clear to me
208. # [02:00] * Joins: yuuki (~kobayashi@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
209. # [02:00] <roc> I think he's confused but it could just be monumental miscommunication
210. # [02:00] * Quits: lilmonkey (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
211. # [02:02] <TabAtkins> Usually with Dirk it's the latter, sprinkled with a little bit of confusion.
212. # [02:02] <TabAtkins> But I feel better now.
213. # [02:04] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@204.153.192.4) (Quit: sicking)
214. # [02:06] * Quits: divya (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
215. # [02:08] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@204.153.192.4)
216. # [02:10] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
217. # [02:13] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
218. # [02:13] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
219. # [02:15] * Quits: carlos_antonio (~benway@unaffiliated/disusered) (Remote host closed the connection)
220. # [02:16] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
221. # [02:17] * Joins: carlos_antonio (~benway@unaffiliated/disusered)
222. # [02:19] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@2001:df8:0:16:b95d:b536:d255:ddb9) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
223. # [02:27] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi)
224. # [02:33] * Joins: smaug_ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi)
225. # [02:35] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
226. # [02:35] * smaug_ is now known as smaug____
227. # [02:39] * Joins: necolas_ (~necolas@50.0.205.154)
228. # [02:45] * Quits: thisgeek (~chris@cpe-204-210-135-55.hvc.res.rr.com) (Quit: thisgeek)
229. # [02:46] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Quit: Reconnecting…)
230. # [02:47] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi)
231. # [02:47] * Joins: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@c-98-243-88-119.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
232. # [02:49] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
233. # [02:49] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@107.42.68.235)
234. # [02:52] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
235. # [02:57] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
236. # [02:57] * Joins: sicking_ (~sicking@204.153.192.4)
237. # [02:58] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@107.42.68.235) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
238. # [03:00] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Got some initial feedback from Gregg.
239. # [03:00] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@204.153.192.4) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
240. # [03:00] * sicking_ is now known as sicking
241. # [03:00] <TabAtkins> He says that WebGL people are moving to prefer contexts being separable from canvases, so that you can render to multiple canvases without having to duplicate all the state.
242. # [03:00] <Hixie> yeah, i saw them talking about that on the gl list
243. # [03:01] <TabAtkins> "var x = new WebGLRenderingContext(...); canvas.bindDrawingBuff(x); canvas2.bindDrawingBuff(x);"
244. # [03:01] <Hixie> i think that if they do that the way it sounds like they are going to do that, it'll work fine with this too
245. # [03:02] <Hixie> (they just need to get the CanvasProxy objects into th worker with the WebGLRenderingContext() object)
246. # [03:02] <TabAtkins> Yeah, then the context can be constructed, either on the worker or in the document and sent to the worker, and then bound to the canvas by the document.
247. # [03:02] <Hixie> the way i'm currently going you'd send the proxy to the worker and the context would be created in the worker
248. # [03:02] <Hixie> since you can't transfer contexts
249. # [03:02] <TabAtkins> Unfortunately, he didn't directly respond about context transfer across process boundaries. I'll press him on that.
250. # [03:07] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Were you thinking that you'd always have to call commit(), or that the browser would normally automatically shuttle things back and forth, and commit() would be a helpful reminder for "I'm done for this frame, go ahead and take it".
251. # [03:07] <Hixie> that you'd need commit(), i think
252. # [03:07] <Hixie> we could imply commit if you spin the event loop in the worker
253. # [03:07] <TabAtkins> Yeah, Greg was talking about putting rAF in a worker.
254. # [03:08] <TabAtkins> Which would accomplish the event-loop spin *and* let you safely modulate your frame rate.
255. # [03:08] <Hixie> definitely need to do that, yes
256. # [03:08] <TabAtkins> Cool.
257. # [03:09] * Joins: nimbu_ (~nimbu@c-67-169-39-98.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
258. # [03:10] * nimbu_ is now known as divya
259. # [03:11] * Joins: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@2001:200:1c0:3602:54e4:ff76:7b1:b8f5)
260. # [03:14] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Did you mean for the CanvasProxy, once neutered, to throw when you read width/height?
261. # [03:15] <Hixie> pretty much everything on the proxy will need to throw once neutered, yeah
262. # [03:18] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@63.245.219.150) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
263. # [03:18] * Quits: say2joe (~say2joe@204.56.108.2) (Quit: Leaving.)
264. # [03:18] <TabAtkins> That's annoying, since it neuters as soon as you generate a context from it. That means you can no longer use the CanvasProxy to get at the width/height of your drawing surface.
265. # [03:19] <TabAtkins> I don't see why the CanvasProxy should throw on reads of width/height.
266. # [03:20] <Hixie> oh i'm planning on changing that
267. # [03:20] <Hixie> creating a context shouldn't neuter it
268. # [03:20] <Hixie> sorry that sketch is out of date
269. # [03:21] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
270. # [03:22] * Joins: xiinotulp (~plutoniix@ppp-61-90-50-115.revip.asianet.co.th)
271. # [03:26] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@ppp-110-168-212-16.revip5.asianet.co.th) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
272. # [03:26] * xiinotulp is now known as plutoniix
273. # [03:27] <Hixie> TabAtkins: (in particular, i'm using the Proxy now as a way to get the image from the canvas in the worker)
274. # [03:28] <TabAtkins> Hm, kk. I'm interested to see what you end up with when you're finished.
275. # [03:28] * Quits: pablof (~pablof@144.189.150.129) (Quit: ^z)
276. # [03:29] <Hixie> you and me both :-)
277. # [03:33] * Quits: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@2001:200:1c0:3602:54e4:ff76:7b1:b8f5) (Remote host closed the connection)
278. # [03:34] * Joins: yoshiaki_ (~yoshiaki@netDHCP-183.keio.w3.org)
279. # [03:34] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@204.153.192.4) (Quit: sicking)
280. # [03:34] * Quits: yoshiaki_ (~yoshiaki@netDHCP-183.keio.w3.org) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
281. # [03:35] * Joins: yoshiak__ (~yoshiaki@netDHCP-183.keio.w3.org)
282. # [03:38] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:3c51:fc9b:e953:af6f) (Quit: ap)
283. # [03:41] * Quits: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@c-98-243-88-119.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) (Quit: snowfox_ben)
284. # [03:42] * Joins: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:802e:97be:c30b:b55b)
285. # [03:43] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
286. # [03:58] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
287. # [03:59] * Quits: blooberry (~blooberry@134.134.139.76) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
288. # [04:12] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@75-144-246-6-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
289. # [04:16] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@c-98-237-137-173.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
290. # [04:21] * Joins: thisgeek (~chris@cpe-204-210-135-55.hvc.res.rr.com)
291. # [04:21] * Quits: thisgeek (~chris@cpe-204-210-135-55.hvc.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
292. # [04:25] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@209.49.153.2)
293. # [04:31] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com)
294. # [04:31] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net) (Quit: tantek)
295. # [04:37] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
296. # [04:38] * Quits: jonlee|afk (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:802e:97be:c30b:b55b) (Quit: jonlee|afk)
297. # [04:39] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@c-98-237-137-173.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
298. # [04:48] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@c-98-237-137-173.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
299. # [04:49] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Remote host closed the connection)
300. # [04:54] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
301. # [04:59] * Joins: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@c-98-243-88-119.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
302. # [04:59] * Quits: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@c-98-243-88-119.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
303. # [05:01] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
304. # [05:05] * Quits: yoshiak__ (~yoshiaki@netDHCP-183.keio.w3.org) (Remote host closed the connection)
305. # [05:05] * Joins: 18VAAC6BF (~yoshiaki@2001:200:1c0:3602:986d:bd10:4b8c:7df5)
306. # [05:10] * Quits: chriseppstein (~chrisepps@99-6-85-4.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: chriseppstein)
307. # [05:10] * Quits: 18VAAC6BF (~yoshiaki@2001:200:1c0:3602:986d:bd10:4b8c:7df5) (Read error: Operation timed out)
308. # [05:17] * Joins: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:9132:aa06:21ce:39b)
309. # [05:21] * Joins: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@c-98-243-88-119.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
310. # [05:29] * lilmonkey` is now known as lilmonkey
311. # [05:38] * Quits: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:9132:aa06:21ce:39b) (Quit: jonlee)
312. # [05:39] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@ppp-61-90-50-115.revip.asianet.co.th) (Read error: No route to host)
313. # [05:39] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@ppp-61-90-50-115.revip.asianet.co.th)
314. # [05:50] * Quits: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@c-98-243-88-119.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) (Quit: snowfox_ben)
315. # [05:51] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@p15181-obmd01.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
316. # [05:51] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@203.196.177.156)
317. # [05:54] * Joins: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@c-98-243-88-119.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
318. # [06:00] * Quits: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@c-98-243-88-119.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) (Quit: snowfox_ben)
319. # [06:08] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@209.49.153.2) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
320. # [06:10] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@24-212-206-174.cable.teksavvy.com)
321. # [06:13] * Joins: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@2001:200:1c0:3602:cd3e:9af3:45e:ece2)
322. # [06:20] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
323. # [06:21] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@c-98-237-137-173.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
324. # [06:22] * Joins: dydx (~dydz@76-220-18-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
325. # [06:25] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
326. # [06:25] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com)
327. # [06:25] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
328. # [06:35] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
329. # [06:37] * Quits: necolas_ (~necolas@50.0.205.154) (Remote host closed the connection)
330. # [06:42] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
331. # [06:52] * Quits: divya (~nimbu@c-67-169-39-98.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
332. # [06:58] * Joins: izhak (~izhak@213.87.241.26)
333. # [07:18] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
334. # [07:19] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
335. # [07:23] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-222.net-80-236-80.issy.rev.numericable.fr)
336. # [07:23] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
337. # [07:30] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
338. # [07:36] * Quits: danzik17 (~danzik17@ool-45787007.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
339. # [07:45] * Joins: Ducki (~Ducki@pD9E39893.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
340. # [07:45] * Joins: baku (~baku@204.153.192.4)
341. # [07:50] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@76-220-18-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: dydx)
342. # [07:51] * Joins: zjhxmjl (~zjhxmjl@58.221.132.2)
343. # [07:54] * Quits: baku (~baku@204.153.192.4) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
344. # [08:00] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
345. # [08:04] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
346. # [08:05] * Quits: zjhxmjl (~zjhxmjl@58.221.132.2) (Quit: Leaving)
347. # [08:09] * Joins: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@i118-21-136-4.s30.a048.ap.plala.or.jp)
348. # [08:11] * Quits: dgorbik (~dgorbik@2620:149:4:304:5402:7be5:7073:badd) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
349. # [08:11] * Joins: dgorbik (~dgorbik@2620:149:4:304:5402:7be5:7073:badd)
350. # [08:15] * Quits: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@2001:200:1c0:3602:cd3e:9af3:45e:ece2) (Remote host closed the connection)
351. # [08:15] * Joins: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@2001:200:1c0:3602:cd3e:9af3:45e:ece2)
352. # [08:19] * Quits: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@2001:200:1c0:3602:cd3e:9af3:45e:ece2) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
353. # [08:19] * Joins: isherman-book1 (Adium@nat/google/x-fgowlpbhcyymcmph)
354. # [08:19] * Quits: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-ijxynfahwhmhggrc) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
355. # [08:20] * Joins: rniwa_ (~rniwa@17.245.106.87)
356. # [08:22] * Joins: yoshiaki_ (~yoshiaki@2001:200:1c0:3602:b9ff:3d3b:8371:f426)
357. # [08:27] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@i118-21-136-4.s30.a048.ap.plala.or.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
358. # [08:27] * Joins: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@i118-21-136-4.s30.a048.ap.plala.or.jp)
359. # [08:33] * Quits: yoshiaki_ (~yoshiaki@2001:200:1c0:3602:b9ff:3d3b:8371:f426) (Remote host closed the connection)
360. # [08:33] * Joins: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@netDHCP-189.keio.w3.org)
361. # [08:37] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
362. # [08:37] * Quits: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@netDHCP-189.keio.w3.org) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
363. # [08:39] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Remote host closed the connection)
364. # [08:39] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
365. # [08:42] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.174)
366. # [08:44] * Quits: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
367. # [08:47] * Quits: skcin7 (~skcin7@c-68-38-156-213.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
368. # [08:50] * Joins: zjhxmjl (~zjhxmjl@58.221.132.2)
369. # [08:57] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
370. # [08:59] * Joins: yoshiaki_ (~yoshiaki@netDHCP-190.keio.w3.org)
371. # [09:04] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.19.229.getinternet.no)
372. # [09:08] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@109.133.12.158)
373. # [09:14] * Joins: RobbertAtWork (~robbertat@212.238.236.229)
374. # [09:15] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@89.143.12.238)
375. # [09:19] * Quits: isherman-book1 (Adium@nat/google/x-fgowlpbhcyymcmph) (Quit: Leaving.)
376. # [09:20] <annevk> terrorists win? :p
377. # [09:21] * Joins: divya (~nimbu@c-67-169-39-98.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
378. # [09:24] <Ms2ger> You win?
379. # [09:26] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-222.net-80-236-80.issy.rev.numericable.fr) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
380. # [09:32] * Quits: zjhxmjl (~zjhxmjl@58.221.132.2) (Quit: Leaving)
381. # [09:34] * Joins: Kolombiken (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
382. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> after re-listening to that conversation I think now that Roy was referring to browser-engine projects collectively when he said that
383. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> not to the whatwg
384. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> but hey it works great either way
385. # [09:38] * Quits: rniwa_ (~rniwa@17.245.106.87) (Quit: rniwa_)
386. # [09:39] * rniwa is now known as rniwa|away
387. # [09:39] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@p15181-obmd01.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith)
388. # [09:43] * Quits: RobbertAtWork (~robbertat@212.238.236.229) (Remote host closed the connection)
389. # [09:44] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
390. # [09:44] * Joins: gavin (~gavin@people1.scl3.mozilla.com)
391. # [09:44] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@people1.scl3.mozilla.com) (Changing host)
392. # [09:44] * Joins: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
393. # [09:45] * Joins: henrikkok (~henrikkok@81.27.221.193)
394. # [09:48] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@i118-21-136-4.s30.a048.ap.plala.or.jp) (Quit: JohnAlbin)
395. # [09:50] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net)
396. # [09:54] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
397. # [09:57] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-90-157-128-80.dynamic.amis.net)
398. # [09:57] * Joins: didymos (~didymos@5.57.48.69)
399. # [09:58] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@u-210162011111.u07.hotspot.ne.jp)
400. # [09:58] * Quits: espadrine (~thaddee_t@85-218-2-62.dclient.lsne.ch) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
401. # [09:59] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
402. # [10:00] <hsivonen> how healthy to see the producers of products that are complementary to your own products as “terrorists”
403. # [10:00] <hsivonen> not even optionally complementary but necessary complements for your product to have demand
404. # [10:01] <hsivonen> browser people aren’t particularly happy about how Apache has handled a couple of config issues, but at least we’ve managed to avoid terrorist comparisons
405. # [10:03] <Ms2ger> ... in public
406. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> if it was the ruler of the nginx project and he called me a terrorist, that would hurt a lot more
407. # [10:08] * Joins: Somatt_wrk (~somattwrk@darkstar2.fullsix.com)
408. # [10:08] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@vev69-1-82-232-219-95.fbx.proxad.net)
409. # [10:13] <hsivonen> looks like my Rust efforts broke frameset-ok.
410. # [10:13] <hsivonen> oops.
411. # [10:13] <hsivonen> good thing I didn’t land this stuff yet
412. # [10:13] <hsivonen> refactoring is hard.
413. # [10:15] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.19.229.getinternet.no) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
414. # [10:15] * Joins: jsoncorwin (~textual@50-0-204-47.dsl.static.sonic.net)
415. # [10:15] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@p5098a42b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
416. # [10:19] * attiks is now known as attiks|away
417. # [10:21] <annevk> TabAtkins: is there an online tool for those railroad diagrams?
418. # [10:21] <annevk> TabAtkins: URL wants to use
419. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> annevk: which railroad diagrams*
420. # [10:24] <annevk> MikeSmith: if you heard something the URL Standard can address please let me know
421. # [10:24] <annevk> MikeSmith: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-syntax/#token-diagrams
422. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> didn't hear anything
423. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> oh nice
424. # [10:24] <hsivonen> good luck using diagrams like that in an RFC
425. # [10:25] <annevk> I listened to it once and I missed a few words, but I did not get the impression there was anything actionable there
426. # [10:25] <annevk> hsivonen: heh
427. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> annevk: wait sorry I think I still made a mistake
428. # [10:30] <hsivonen> the way they think about naming vs. versioning at the IETF is fascinating
429. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> annevk: I listened to it again really carefully and now I'm pretty sure what he really said is, "Anne's a rhyme terrorist at the microphone, Hixie drops the beats like a predator drone."
430. # [10:33] <hsivonen> It takes a correct observation that if you have an old API entry points and you want and you incompatible new API entry point, the solution is to give the new one a different name. But then it confuses this with non-operational naming and definitional incompatibility (as opposed to actual operational incompatibility).
431. # [10:34] <hsivonen> s/and you and you/and you want to have/
432. # [10:35] <hsivonen> also ignores that the operational names that take the thing annevk is speccing are already called “url()” and the like
433. # [10:36] * Joins: RobbertAtWork (~robbertat@212.238.236.229)
434. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> annevk: https://github.com/tabatkins/railroad-diagrams
435. # [10:37] * Joins: reinaldob (~reinaldob@201.74.207.100)
436. # [10:38] <annevk> ah cool
437. # [10:42] <hsivonen> I feel like a blog post coming up, but must avoid 386.
438. # [10:42] * Quits: jsoncorwin (~textual@50-0-204-47.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
439. # [10:42] <annevk> hsivonen: I wrote http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2012Nov/0015.html but that's mostly technical
440. # [10:43] <annevk> hsivonen: I'd be interested in a blog post on the manner though if it doesn't take up too much of your time
441. # [10:45] <annevk> (posted a short TPAC note on text/css btw; might do another one later on CORS)
442. # [10:45] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@office.oslo.opera.com)
443. # [10:48] <hsivonen> annevk: cool. I’ll update my Gecko patch.
444. # [10:49] <zcorpan> GPHemsley: if you're tying to test invalid http responses with apache, you're gonna have a bad time
445. # [10:49] <zcorpan> GPHemsley: don't use apache
446. # [10:49] <zcorpan> GPHemsley: use a custom server where you can control the bytes
447. # [10:51] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi)
448. # [10:51] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, https://bitbucket.org/annevk/simpleserver perhaps
449. # [10:51] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@c-67-180-8-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: sicking)
450. # [10:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is your CSS BOM test suite available under a permissive license?
451. # [10:52] * Joins: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.250.124)
452. # [10:53] * Parts: JonathanNeal (u5831@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wrjyfisdxerbztqq)
453. # [10:53] * Joins: JonathanNeal (u5831@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wrjyfisdxerbztqq)
454. # [10:53] <zcorpan> hmm, wonder if a license is applied when submitting to csswg
455. # [10:54] <jgraham> I think that all of W3C uses testsuite license + BSD
456. # [10:54] <hsivonen> ok.
457. # [10:54] * Parts: JonathanNeal (u5831@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wrjyfisdxerbztqq)
458. # [10:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan: did you submit it already? where do I find the submission?
459. # [10:55] <zcorpan> https://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/opera/submitted/css3-syntax/charset/
460. # [10:55] <zcorpan> i was told that's the proper home for css tests
461. # [10:56] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
462. # [10:57] <zcorpan> "The tests are intended to be released under both the W3C Document License and the BSD 3-clause license, so unless you represent a W3C Member, you must give your explicit permission for us to use your contributions under these licenses." http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/contribute
463. # [10:57] * Joins: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@cpe-142-11-82-156.socal.rr.com)
464. # [10:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: what’s the expected header config for .bogus.css files?
465. # [10:58] <jgraham> I thought it was 2 clause
466. # [10:58] <jgraham> Oh, I was wrong
467. # [10:58] <zcorpan> hsivonen: clone http://hg.csswg.org/test
468. # [10:59] * Joins: Stevef_ (~chatzilla@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
469. # [10:59] * Quits: JonathanNeal_ (~JonathanN@cpe-142-11-82-156.socal.rr.com) (Client Quit)
470. # [11:00] <zcorpan> or http://hg.csswg.org/test/file/7feb6727108c/contributors/opera/submitted/css3-syntax/charset/.htaccess
471. # [11:00] * Joins: JonathanNeal_ (~anonymous@cpe-142-11-82-156.socal.rr.com)
472. # [11:01] <zcorpan> confusing that it shows a completely unrelated commit message
473. # [11:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
474. # [11:01] * Joins: nonge (~nonge@p50829CAC.dip.t-dialin.net)
475. # [11:03] * JonathanNeal_ is now known as JonathanNeal
476. # [11:05] * Parts: JonathanNeal (~anonymous@cpe-142-11-82-156.socal.rr.com)
477. # [11:05] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~anonymous@cpe-142-11-82-156.socal.rr.com)
478. # [11:06] * Quits: nonge_ (~nonge@p5082A966.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
479. # [11:12] * Quits: Somatt_wrk (~somattwrk@darkstar2.fullsix.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
480. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: is there any reason for not adding ITS validation support to the default preset at this point?
481. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> if there is none, I'll go ahead and add it
482. # [11:21] * Quits: beverloo (peter@nat/google/x-dwkykpovvuubgccy) (Quit: beverloo)
483. # [11:22] * Quits: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.250.124) (Quit: Leaving...)
484. # [11:24] * Joins: Peter` (peter@nat/google/x-ypmurcpqhlduxegr)
485. # [11:24] * Peter` is now known as beverloo
486. # [11:25] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~anonymous@cpe-142-11-82-156.socal.rr.com) (Quit: JonathanNeal)
487. # [11:26] * Quits: Adawerk (~ada@169.241.49.57) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
488. # [11:27] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@ppp-61-90-50-115.revip.asianet.co.th) (Quit: จรลี จรลา)
489. # [11:28] * Joins: Adawerk (~ada@169.241.49.57)
490. # [11:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: IIRC, Jirka had a reason to wait for a bit.
491. # [11:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: as for making it default, I think ITS would be mostly harmless functionally as part of the default but making a non-browser-targeted extension part of the default is a bit of a slippery slope as far as setting a precedent goes
492. # [11:34] * Quits: yoshiaki_ (~yoshiaki@netDHCP-190.keio.w3.org) (Remote host closed the connection)
493. # [11:34] * Joins: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@2001:200:1c0:3602:7991:fe1e:185a:d40f)
494. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> I see
495. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> i'll go back and re-read the thread with Jirka
496. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> making it not part of the default has the downside of further complicating the list of presets
497. # [11:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah, the list of presets is not great
498. # [11:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: identifying presets by URLs rather than some persistent symbols is not great in practice
499. # [11:36] <hsivonen> but hey, the URL thing is right in principle!
500. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> hah
501. # [11:37] * Joins: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.250.124)
502. # [11:37] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-90-157-128-80.dynamic.amis.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
503. # [11:37] <hsivonen> I heard ITS described as an enterprise feature at TPAC.
504. # [11:38] * Quits: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@2001:200:1c0:3602:7991:fe1e:185a:d40f) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
505. # [11:41] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@faun.canonical.com)
506. # [11:41] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@faun.canonical.com) (Changing host)
507. # [11:41] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
508. # [11:43] * Joins: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@netDHCP-190.keio.w3.org)
509. # [11:45] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.174) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
510. # [11:46] * Quits: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@netDHCP-190.keio.w3.org) (Remote host closed the connection)
511. # [11:46] * Joins: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@2001:200:1c0:3602:a5ee:97ca:e162:a53a)
512. # [11:49] * Quits: Adawerk (~ada@169.241.49.57) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
513. # [11:49] * Joins: Adawerk (~ada@169.241.49.57)
514. # [11:51] * Quits: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@2001:200:1c0:3602:a5ee:97ca:e162:a53a) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
515. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: hmm that's the kiss of death
516. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> I hope the ITS advocates don't use that term themselves if they want to have people view ITS positively
517. # [11:52] * Joins: Somatt_wrk (~somattwrk@darkstar2.fullsix.com)
518. # [11:54] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it wasn’t ITS advocacy :-)
519. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> ok
520. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> "enterprise" is like "terrosist"
521. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> except spelled correctly
522. # [11:56] * Quits: fishd (darin@nat/google/x-jqyfvzbyjmcfsjsl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
523. # [11:56] * Joins: fishd (darin@nat/google/x-ydorrbopkidhqlls)
524. # [12:00] * Quits: hsivonen (~hsivonen@srv-e205.esp.mediateam.fi) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
525. # [12:00] * Joins: hsivonen (~hsivonen@srv-e205.esp.mediateam.fi)
526. # [12:02] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@u-210162011111.u07.hotspot.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith)
527. # [12:06] <annevk> hsivonen: only URIs are correct in principle
528. # [12:10] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@203.196.177.156) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
529. # [12:11] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Remote host closed the connection)
530. # [12:14] * Joins: niloy (~niloy@203.196.177.156)
531. # [12:15] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@109.133.12.158) (Quit: bbl)
532. # [12:15] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@p15181-obmd01.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
533. # [12:18] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.174)
534. # [12:19] * Joins: yorick (~quassel@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl)
535. # [12:19] * Quits: yorick (~quassel@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl) (Changing host)
536. # [12:19] * Joins: yorick (~quassel@unaffiliated/yorick)
537. # [12:19] * Joins: auchenbe_ (~auchenber@176.222.239.226)
538. # [12:23] * Quits: auchenberg (~auchenber@176.222.239.226) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
539. # [12:26] * Quits: izhak (~izhak@213.87.241.26) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
540. # [12:29] * Joins: [[zzz]] (~q@node-84x.pool-125-25.dynamic.totbb.net)
541. # [12:32] * Quits: [[zz]] (~q@node-1awq.pool-101-109.dynamic.totbb.net) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
542. # [12:33] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
543. # [12:37] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@89.143.12.238) (Quit: sedovsek)
544. # [12:39] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
545. # [12:44] * Quits: auchenbe_ (~auchenber@176.222.239.226) (Remote host closed the connection)
546. # [12:45] * Quits: jarib (~jarib@unaffiliated/jarib) (Excess Flood)
547. # [12:45] * Joins: auchenberg (~auchenber@176.222.239.226)
548. # [12:46] * Joins: jarib (~jarib@unaffiliated/jarib)
549. # [12:55] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: rniwa)
550. # [13:06] * Quits: Stevef_ (~chatzilla@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
551. # [13:06] <annevk> slightlyoff: meant to talk to you about the URL API last week, but for some reason it didn't happen
552. # [13:06] <annevk> but twitter works
553. # [13:06] <jgraham> API design via twitter? What could possibly go wrong?
554. # [13:06] <annevk> @__proto__, right? :)
555. # [13:11] <smaug____> s/API design//
556. # [13:12] <annevk> but don't worry, it's going to a list ;)
557. # [13:13] * Quits: Somatt_wrk (~somattwrk@darkstar2.fullsix.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
558. # [13:15] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@89.143.12.238)
559. # [13:15] * Joins: auchenbe_ (~auchenber@176.222.239.226)
560. # [13:16] * Quits: auchenberg (~auchenber@176.222.239.226) (Read error: Operation timed out)
561. # [13:17] * Joins: Somatt_wrk (~somattwrk@darkstar2.fullsix.com)
562. # [13:19] <zcorpan> jgraham: at least we don't have to worry about overly long names
563. # [13:21] <jgraham> Heh. But I don't think that Hixie is so influential that we need to worry about annevk making a DeferredURLProxyFactoryFactory yet
564. # [13:24] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@203.196.177.156) (Remote host closed the connection)
565. # [13:24] * odinho h8 .stopPropagation .cancelDefault .stopImmediatePropagation and whatstheirnames
566. # [13:24] <odinho> preventDefault it was I think, omg, always have to look that up
567. # [13:27] <annevk> defaultPrevented?
568. # [13:27] <annevk> oh the method
569. # [13:28] * Joins: vargadanis (~vargadani@catv-89-135-86-99.catv.broadband.hu)
570. # [13:29] <smaug____> naming is inconsistent. events can be cancelable, in which case preventDefault() isn't no-op
571. # [13:29] <smaug____> but too late to change that all
572. # [13:29] <odinho> Sugar Spec, -- just sayin'.
573. # [13:30] * Joins: scor (~scor@c-98-216-39-127.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
574. # [13:30] * Quits: scor (~scor@c-98-216-39-127.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Changing host)
575. # [13:30] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
576. # [13:35] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@89.143.12.238) (Quit: sedovsek)
577. # [13:36] * Quits: ^esc (~esc_ape@77.116.247.95.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
578. # [13:36] <vargadanis> is a PHP version os the lib lagging so much behind the pythong version? 3 years?
579. # [13:36] * Quits: Druide__ (~Druid@p5B05C4DD.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
580. # [13:37] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@89.143.12.238)
581. # [13:37] <annevk> vargadanis: the person working on PHP html5lib stopped working on it
582. # [13:38] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@p5098a42b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
583. # [13:40] * Joins: Druide_ (~Druid@p5B05C4DD.dip.t-dialin.net)
584. # [13:41] * Quits: auchenbe_ (~auchenber@176.222.239.226) (Remote host closed the connection)
585. # [13:42] * Joins: auchenberg (~auchenber@176.222.239.226)
586. # [13:43] * Parts: Kolombiken (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
587. # [13:43] * Joins: ^esc (~esc_ape@178.115.250.69.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
588. # [13:50] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-90-157-128-80.dynamic.amis.net)
589. # [13:51] * Joins: mpt_ (~mpt@faun.canonical.com)
590. # [13:51] * Quits: mpt_ (~mpt@faun.canonical.com) (Changing host)
591. # [13:51] * Joins: mpt_ (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
592. # [13:53] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
593. # [13:57] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@p5098a42b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
594. # [13:57] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
595. # [14:10] * Quits: richt (~richt@pat-tazdevil.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
596. # [14:11] * Joins: scor (~scor@c-98-216-39-127.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
597. # [14:11] * Quits: scor (~scor@c-98-216-39-127.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Changing host)
598. # [14:11] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
599. # [14:13] * [[zzz]] is now known as [[zz]]
600. # [14:13] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@8.25.197.24) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
601. # [14:13] * Joins: yoshiaki_ (~yoshiaki@p2028-ipngn3201marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
602. # [14:18] * Quits: auchenberg (~auchenber@176.222.239.226) (Remote host closed the connection)
603. # [14:20] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
604. # [14:24] * Joins: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251)
605. # [14:28] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
606. # [14:29] * Joins: richt (~richt@pat-tazdevil.opera.com)
607. # [14:29] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@124.155.23.209)
608. # [14:31] <annevk> http://www.sitepoint.com/have-you-considered-polyglot-markup/
609. # [14:31] <annevk> "You want better quality. This goes along with the first item. Also, “application/xhtml+xml” can signify quality."
610. # [14:32] <annevk> :/
611. # [14:33] * Joins: Ralt (~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net)
612. # [14:33] <Ralt> hello people
613. # [14:33] <Ralt> should I trust WHATWG living DOM standard or W3C DOM3 standard?
614. # [14:34] <MikeSmith> annevk: I think Sitepoint meant to publish that article in their Onion section
615. # [14:34] <annevk> Ralt: DOM3 is obsolete
616. # [14:35] <annevk> Ralt: apart from DOM3 Events I suppose, that lingers on
617. # [14:35] <Ralt> can't find DOM4 :(
618. # [14:35] <annevk> Ralt: it's somewhere, but also not as up to date as the DOM Standard (and it's a fork of that anyway)
619. # [14:35] <Ralt> hm, got it
620. # [14:35] <Ralt> there are some differences though
621. # [14:36] <annevk> ?
622. # [14:36] <Ralt> ah no
623. # [14:36] <Ralt> it's ok, my bad
624. # [14:37] <Ralt> hm, there isn't supposed to be any live NodeList anymore then, right?
625. # [14:37] <Ralt> since the only method returning NodeList is QSA
626. # [14:39] * Joins: Stevef (~chatzilla@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
627. # [14:39] <zcorpan> readonly attribute NodeList childNodes;
628. # [14:39] * Quits: dcheng (dcheng@nat/google/x-fmvojlnobesyuhur) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
629. # [14:39] * Quits: ukai_ (ukai@nat/google/x-fdrjtfkprelrczdc) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
630. # [14:40] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@8.25.197.24)
631. # [14:40] <annevk> Ralt: there's some dispute over getElementsByClassName as to whether or not they should return HTMLCollection, though maybe that's settled by now
632. # [14:41] * Joins: dcheng (dcheng@nat/google/x-cccjjigvgmlejdfy)
633. # [14:42] <Ralt> annevk: in both specs, they return HTMLCollections (living & DOM4), so I guess it's settled?
634. # [14:42] <annevk> Ralt: W3C DOM is just a copy; settled refers to potential ongoing debate
635. # [14:42] <annevk> Ralt: I haven't looked into that particular issue in a while
636. # [14:42] * annevk is fixing mutation observers
637. # [14:43] <annevk> (out of date copy*)
638. # [14:43] <Ralt> so W3C DOM4 just merges DOM living standard from time to time?
639. # [14:43] <annevk> afaik that's the plan
640. # [14:44] <Ralt> alright, thanks :)
641. # [14:44] <Ralt> zcorpan: ah! thanks
642. # [14:45] * Quits: richt (~richt@pat-tazdevil.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
643. # [14:46] <hsivonen> annevk: Polyglot will supply 386 for the next decade.
644. # [14:46] <annevk> Ralt: if you're an implementor I suggest using the WHATWG copy, even Microsoft does so
645. # [14:46] <annevk> Ralt: if you're a lawyer I suggest using the W3C copy
646. # [14:47] <Ralt> haha ok
647. # [14:47] <annevk> hsivonen: hahaha
648. # [14:47] <annevk> hsivonen: also tragedy
649. # [14:50] * Quits: RobbertAtWork (~robbertat@212.238.236.229) (Remote host closed the connection)
650. # [14:53] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
651. # [14:56] <hsivonen> unsurprisingly, implementing the new CSS charset stuff fails a test called test-charset-utf-16-le-no-bom.html
652. # [14:56] <hsivonen> also be
653. # [14:56] * Quits: Somatt_wrk (~somattwrk@darkstar2.fullsix.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
654. # [14:57] <hsivonen> uh oh. looks like those are part of an official test suite
655. # [14:58] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com)
656. # [14:58] * Joins: richt (~richt@pat-tazdevil.opera.com)
657. # [14:59] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@s1106216.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
658. # [14:59] <hsivonen> when I seach for “test-charset-utf-16-le-no-bom.html” on DDG, I get a Microsoft ad saying that IE is better now.
659. # [15:00] <zcorpan> is ie better at bomless utf-16 now?
660. # [15:00] <jgraham> That's a super targetted ad ;)
661. # [15:00] * Joins: auchenberg (~auchenber@176.222.239.226)
662. # [15:01] * Joins: zjhxmjl (~zjhxmjl@183.209.79.16)
663. # [15:01] <zcorpan> microsoft went "gotta convince hsivonen that ie doesn't suck these days. what do we do?"
664. # [15:02] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@p15181-obmd01.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
665. # [15:02] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
666. # [15:02] <hsivonen> how does the CSS WG deal with Level 3 invalidating a test in the CSS 2.1 test suite?
667. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> take 2.1 back to CR!
668. # [15:03] <jgraham> You might hope that there was one testsuite to rule them all
669. # [15:03] * Quits: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.250.124) (Quit: Leaving...)
670. # [15:03] <zcorpan> http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/31865121758/the-joker-shares-his-approach-on-css2-1-issues
671. # [15:04] * Joins: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.250.124)
672. # [15:05] * Joins: Plashtop (~Plashtop@c-76-122-27-92.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
673. # [15:06] * Joins: ukai_ (ukai@nat/google/x-zzecdoceqimypbqs)
674. # [15:06] <hsivonen> sigh. I don’t like test cases that I have to look in a hex editor to see what they are doing.
675. # [15:06] <zcorpan> hsivonen: maybe reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0870.html ? (or an earlier email in the thread)
676. # [15:07] <zcorpan> hsivonen: are my tests like that?
677. # [15:07] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I trust your tests do what they say on the tin.
678. # [15:08] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i got little-endian and big-endian wrong at first, FYI :-)
679. # [15:09] <hsivonen> now I’m unhappy about web-sniffer.net
680. # [15:09] <hsivonen> the test case I’m looking at tests what it says but web-sniffer.net drops 0x00
681. # [15:12] <hsivonen> aaargh. someone at Microsoft though about evil test cases for CSS 2.1 syndata but instead of concluding that the spec didn’t make sense, the WG put the tests in the test suite
682. # [15:12] * Joins: Somatt_wrk (~somattwrk@darkstar2.fullsix.com)
683. # [15:12] <hsivonen> once you have a test case like http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20110111/html4/at-charset-045.htm in hand, aren’t you supposed to conclude the spec is crazy?
684. # [15:13] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net) (Quit: tomasf)
685. # [15:13] * Joins: RobbertAtWork (~robbertat@212.238.236.229)
686. # [15:14] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
687. # [15:15] * Joins: gavin (~gavin@people1.scl3.mozilla.com)
688. # [15:15] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@people1.scl3.mozilla.com) (Changing host)
689. # [15:15] * Joins: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
690. # [15:17] <Lachy> hsivonen, does the spec say that @charset takes precedence over the BOM?
691. # [15:17] <hsivonen> interesting https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=462458#c0
692. # [15:18] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes! http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#charset
693. # [15:18] <hsivonen> Lachy: Level 3 fixes this.
694. # [15:18] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-86.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
695. # [15:22] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@124.155.23.209) (Quit: jdaggett)
696. # [15:23] <Lachy> wow, that's crazy.
697. # [15:25] * Joins: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
698. # [15:25] * Quits: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
699. # [15:25] * Joins: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
700. # [15:26] * Quits: yoshiaki_ (~yoshiaki@p2028-ipngn3201marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
701. # [15:26] * Joins: yoshiaki_ (~yoshiaki@p2028-ipngn3201marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
702. # [15:29] * GPHemsley wonders if Google has any Hey GURL memes lying around.
703. # [15:31] * Quits: yoshiaki_ (~yoshiaki@p2028-ipngn3201marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
704. # [15:34] <GPHemsley> Interestingly, Chrome and Opera seem to also store the appropriate file extension when doing sniffing.
705. # [15:34] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
706. # [15:34] <GPHemsley> If you load a resource with a file type that they don't support, they will offer to download it—with a file extension appended.
707. # [15:35] <GPHemsley> (My tests don't use file extensions.)
708. # [15:35] <GPHemsley> I wonder if that should be specced?
709. # [15:37] <annevk> whereis smaug?
710. # [15:39] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.105.178.getinternet.no)
711. # [15:39] * Parts: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.250.124) ("Linkinus - http://linkinus.com")
712. # [15:39] * Quits: zjhxmjl (~zjhxmjl@183.209.79.16) (Quit: Leaving)
713. # [15:39] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@office.oslo.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
714. # [15:40] <zcorpan> GPHemsley: that seems like a platform-specific thing and also something that doesn't get exposed to web content directly so we don't need interop
715. # [15:40] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se)
716. # [15:40] <GPHemsley> zcorpan: Ah, OK.
717. # [15:40] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@pat-tazdevil.opera.com)
718. # [15:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan: can you explain https://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/opera/submitted/css3-syntax/charset/page-windows-1251-css-utf8-bom.html ?
719. # [15:44] <hsivonen> the id is the REPLACEMENT CHARACTER but the selector is not bogus UTF-8
720. # [15:48] <zcorpan> hsivonen: it was intended to be bogus utf-8. seems i forgot to remove the 80 byte when switching from 80 to c8 as the "interesting byte"
721. # [15:48] <zcorpan> will fix
722. # [15:48] <hsivonen> also, https://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/opera/submitted/css3-syntax/charset/page-windows-1251-charset-attribute-bogus.html seems to be off
723. # [15:49] <hsivonen> it has a C8 byte but the test is written for E8 byte
724. # [15:50] * Joins: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
725. # [15:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: https://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/opera/submitted/css3-syntax/charset/page-windows-1251-css-at-charset-bogus.html fails because the .css file is 404
726. # [15:51] <zcorpan> fixed the first thing
727. # [15:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: https://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/opera/submitted/css3-syntax/charset/page-windows-1251-css-http-bogus.html also has the C8 vs. E8 thing
728. # [15:52] <hsivonen> \o/ the UTF-8 one passes now
729. # [15:54] <zcorpan> man, case folding :-(
730. # [15:56] <hsivonen> https://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/opera/submitted/css3-syntax/charset/page-utf16-css-bomless-utf16be.html fails, but that’s because the decoder sniffs endianness when the BOM is missing and the test assumes that not to happen, right?
731. # [15:59] <GPHemsley> Is there a convention for naming tests?
732. # [16:00] <zcorpan> hsivonen: fixed c8 vs e8
733. # [16:00] * Joins: baku (~baku@204.153.192.4)
734. # [16:01] * Quits: divya (~nimbu@c-67-169-39-98.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
735. # [16:02] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@140.203.154.5)
736. # [16:02] <zcorpan> note to self: use data:text/html;charset=windows-1251,%c8 and javascript:alert(document.body.textContent.charCodeAt(0).toString(16)) instead of looking up the character with a google search
737. # [16:05] <zcorpan> hsivonen: fixed the 404
738. # [16:05] <zcorpan> hsivonen: thanks
739. # [16:05] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
740. # [16:05] <hsivonen> can you explain https://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/opera/submitted/css3-syntax/charset/page-windows-1251-css-at-charset-windows-1250-in-utf16.html ?
741. # [16:06] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
742. # [16:06] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@c-24-99-164-150.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
743. # [16:06] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@c-24-99-164-150.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) (Changing host)
744. # [16:06] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
745. # [16:06] <hsivonen> AFAICT, the windows-1251 interpretation of the style rule is the one that should match
746. # [16:07] * Joins: scor (~scor@c-66-31-18-122.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
747. # [16:07] <hsivonen> but the test does not want it to match
748. # [16:07] * Quits: scor (~scor@c-66-31-18-122.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Changing host)
749. # [16:07] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
750. # [16:07] * Joins: izhak (~izhak@188.244.183.42)
751. # [16:07] <annevk> no smaug today?
752. # [16:08] <hsivonen> https://twitter.com/ronsman/status/266538463262801921
753. # [16:08] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you're right
754. # [16:09] <annevk> http://html5.org/temp/mo-queue.html was hard to write :(
755. # [16:10] * Joins: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@36-224-105-141.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
756. # [16:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: fixed. (also utf16be)
757. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the guy wants you tell him in 500 to 1000 words how to acquire clue?
758. # [16:14] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ask in #css-test on irc.w3.org if you want push access
759. # [16:15] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i have to leave now
760. # [16:15] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Quit: Leaving)
761. # [16:15] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.174) (Remote host closed the connection)
762. # [16:16] * Quits: didymos (~didymos@5.57.48.69) (Quit: Woop)
763. # [16:16] * Joins: danzik17 (~danzik17@ool-45787007.dyn.optonline.net)
764. # [16:17] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@89.143.12.238) (Quit: sedovsek)
765. # [16:18] <annevk> so the queue thing
766. # [16:18] <annevk> each time you modify a DOM node
767. # [16:18] <annevk> that runs
768. # [16:19] <annevk> well, if you have some listeners set up
769. # [16:19] <annevk> shit's expensive
770. # [16:20] <miketaylr> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webevents/raw-file/default/gamepad.html :|
771. # [16:20] <miketaylr> "error: gamepad.html@cde6c06f4579: not found in manifest"
772. # [16:21] * hsivonen reviews test cases by implementing the spec and then running the tests
773. # [16:22] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi)
774. # [16:28] <annevk> IDNA disallows http://💩.la too
775. # [16:28] <annevk> IDNA2008
776. # [16:29] <hsivonen> huh. no Ms2ger
777. # [16:34] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@24-212-206-174.cable.teksavvy.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
778. # [16:37] * Joins: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@p2028-ipngn3201marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
779. # [16:39] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-86.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
780. # [16:39] * Joins: divya (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
781. # [16:43] * Quits: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@p2028-ipngn3201marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
782. # [16:44] * Parts: teleject (~christoph@cpe-70-112-219-104.austin.res.rr.com)
783. # [16:45] <GPHemsley> annevk: Whoever's in charge of that site is bad for the Web.
784. # [16:45] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
785. # [16:46] <annevk> yeah, better invalidate his domain name
786. # [16:46] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
787. # [16:46] <annevk> o_O
788. # [16:46] <GPHemsley> Independent of his domain name.
789. # [16:46] <GPHemsley> He uses webkit-only CSS
790. # [16:46] <annevk> they don't really seem to see it as a problem either, invalidating domain names
791. # [16:46] <annevk> so sad
792. # [16:46] <gavinp> GPHemsley: may I have wiki user rights?
793. # [16:47] <gavinp> Yesterday annevk had to create an entry for me, which is fine, but it would be nice to do that myself.
794. # [16:47] <GPHemsley> gavinp: What kind? I already added you to the autoconfirmed list.
795. # [16:47] <gavinp> ok, great.
796. # [16:47] <GPHemsley> gavinp: You should be able to create pages and all that good stuff. :)
797. # [16:47] * Quits: richt (~richt@pat-tazdevil.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
798. # [16:47] <gavinp> Right now I cannot create pages
799. # [16:47] <gavinp> should i log out and back in or something?
800. # [16:47] <GPHemsley> hmm
801. # [16:47] <GPHemsley> couldn't hurt
802. # [16:48] <gavinp> and that did it.
803. # [16:48] <gavinp> thanks.
804. # [16:48] <GPHemsley> Ah, good.
805. # [16:48] <gavinp> next step was to reboot my windows machine.
806. # [16:48] <GPHemsley> heh
807. # [16:48] <gavinp> 'k. You're awesome. Thank you.
808. # [16:48] <GPHemsley> :)
809. # [16:48] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@66.109.106.47)
810. # [16:48] <gavinp> I am going to assume the ~18hrs of silence that my prerender events proposal has received is widespread unanimous consent from all implementers and developers.
811. # [16:49] <gavinp> and proceed on that basis.
812. # [16:49] <GPHemsley> gavinp: Thank you, too. Your request for rights uncovered a bug with permissions to give those rights. :)
813. # [16:50] <annevk> gavinp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warnock's_dilemma (though I suspect most of the other browsers are just not doing prerendering at all yet)
814. # [16:51] <gavinp> afaik we are the only one, and partly for architectural reasons.
815. # [16:51] * Joins: tetsuo_808 (~chatzilla@unsworth-adsl.demon.co.uk)
816. # [16:51] <gavinp> And I think the first rev of the API wasn't as useful for sites as it could be. So hopefully this kind of incremental change is working.
817. # [16:51] <gavinp> I was very happy to just use element removal as an API signal to kill prerenders; that feels very natural and doesn't increase the scripting language surface area at all.
818. # [16:54] * Quits: vargadanis (~vargadani@catv-89-135-86-99.catv.broadband.hu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
819. # [16:56] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com)
820. # [16:56] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com) (Excess Flood)
821. # [16:56] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com)
822. # [16:56] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com) (Excess Flood)
823. # [16:57] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com)
824. # [16:57] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@pat-tazdevil.opera.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
825. # [16:59] <SimonSapin> Is it necessary or useful to escape > in HTML text?
826. # [16:59] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
827. # [17:00] * Joins: dydx (~dydz@76-220-18-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
828. # [17:02] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
829. # [17:02] * Quits: auchenberg (~auchenber@176.222.239.226) (Remote host closed the connection)
830. # [17:07] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|lunch
831. # [17:08] * Quits: henrikkok (~henrikkok@81.27.221.193) (Quit: Leaving.)
832. # [17:09] * Joins: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.250.124)
833. # [17:09] * Quits: odinho (~odinho@office.oslo.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
834. # [17:12] * Joins: odinho (~odinho@office.oslo.opera.com)
835. # [17:16] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@76-220-18-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: dydx)
836. # [17:19] * Joins: netflatron (bd458864@gateway/web/freenode/ip.189.69.136.100)
837. # [17:21] * Joins: scor (~scor@w0052335.mgh.harvard.edu)
838. # [17:21] * Quits: scor (~scor@w0052335.mgh.harvard.edu) (Changing host)
839. # [17:21] * Joins: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view)
840. # [17:24] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@66.109.106.47) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
841. # [17:24] * Quits: heycam|away (~cam@wok.mcc.id.au) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
842. # [17:24] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@c-24-99-164-150.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
843. # [17:24] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@c-24-99-164-150.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) (Changing host)
844. # [17:24] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
845. # [17:24] * Quits: netflatron (bd458864@gateway/web/freenode/ip.189.69.136.100) (Quit: Page closed)
846. # [17:25] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
847. # [17:26] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@89.143.12.238)
848. # [17:27] * Quits: baku (~baku@204.153.192.4) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
849. # [17:28] * Joins: heycam|away (~cam@wok.mcc.id.au)
850. # [17:30] * Quits: Ducki (~Ducki@pD9E39893.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
851. # [17:31] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@89.23.239.149) (*.net *.split)
852. # [17:33] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~anonymous@cpe-142-11-82-156.socal.rr.com)
853. # [17:36] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~anonymous@cpe-142-11-82-156.socal.rr.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
854. # [17:37] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~anonymous@cpe-142-11-82-156.socal.rr.com)
855. # [17:39] * Parts: tetsuo_808 (~chatzilla@unsworth-adsl.demon.co.uk)
856. # [17:41] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@89.23.239.149)
857. # [17:41] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@192.150.22.55)
858. # [17:44] * Quits: izhak (~izhak@188.244.183.42) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
859. # [17:49] * Quits: JohnAlbin (~JohnAlbin@36-224-105-141.dynamic-ip.hinet.net) (Quit: HTTP/1.1 404 JohnAlbin Not Found)
860. # [17:49] * Joins: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@190.244.76.14)
861. # [17:49] * Quits: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@190.244.76.14) (Remote host closed the connection)
862. # [17:49] * Joins: dgrogan_cloud (u7844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ykpymatxjivpsmne)
863. # [17:49] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
864. # [17:49] * Joins: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@190.244.76.14)
865. # [17:51] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@173-228-64-81.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
866. # [17:52] * Joins: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@p2028-ipngn3201marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
867. # [17:54] * Joins: baku (~baku@204.153.192.4)
868. # [17:54] * Quits: tomasf (~tomasf@static-88.131.62.36.addr.tdcsong.se) (Quit: tomasf)
869. # [17:58] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@109.133.12.158)
870. # [18:01] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
871. # [18:03] * abstractj|lunch is now known as abstractj
872. # [18:03] <Ms2ger> Good night
873. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> annevk: I should definitely make an online tool for them, but as MikeSmith already pointed to the repo, you can probably do it yourself. ^_^
874. # [18:12] * Joins: jsbell (jsbell@nat/google/x-zcsfxwivevhkdvab)
875. # [18:13] * Parts: jsbell (jsbell@nat/google/x-zcsfxwivevhkdvab)
876. # [18:13] * Joins: blooberry (~blooberry@134.134.139.76)
877. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: If level 3 changes 2.1 behavior in a way that would invalidate a 2.1 test, that's fine. You can just claim conformance with the higher spec. If it bothers you, you can submit a revised version of the 2.1 test; if that's not possible, you can ask for it to be undefined in 2.1 with a pointer to level 3. But I wouldnt' care about it.
878. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: As long as there's no BOM, if you're using sublime text you can just go File->Reopen with Encoding and choose Hexadecimal.
879. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: For a hex editor, that is.
880. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: No need to escape > in raw text or in a quoted attribute. Escape it otherwise.
881. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> (Of course, you shouldn't have > in an element or attribute name in the first place, and if your attribute value is outside alphanumeric range, you should be quoting it.)
882. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> So in practice, no, never escape >. The only things you need to escape are < (always), & (most of the time, might as well do it for safety), and your quoting character inside an attribute value.
883. # [18:19] <jgraham> M-x hexl-mode
884. # [18:19] <jgraham> But it's still annoying
885. # [18:20] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: great, thanks
886. # [18:20] * Joins: chriseppstein (~chrisepps@209.119.65.162)
887. # [18:21] * Joins: newz2000 (~newz2000@unaffiliated/newz2000)
888. # [18:21] * Parts: newz2000 (~newz2000@unaffiliated/newz2000)
889. # [18:24] * Joins: bLh (wat@89-212-66-204.dynamic.t-2.net)
890. # [18:25] * Quits: RobbertAtWork (~robbertat@212.238.236.229) (Remote host closed the connection)
891. # [18:25] * Quits: danzik17 (~danzik17@ool-45787007.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
892. # [18:26] <bLh> Ello fellas, i`ve few questions about wc3 web sql database. I`ve created mobile app with PhoneGap, which uses Web sql database, since it`s not in active maintance anymore, i`m worried what will happen with newer versions of browsers(webkit)
893. # [18:26] <bLh> did i made a big mistake ;|
894. # [18:29] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
895. # [18:30] <smaug____> bLh: don't use Websql
896. # [18:30] <Ms2ger> Yeah, you don't want to use websql
897. # [18:30] <smaug____> use IndexedDB
898. # [18:30] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
899. # [18:30] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
900. # [18:31] * Quits: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@p2028-ipngn3201marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
901. # [18:31] * Parts: eric_carlson (~eric@17.212.152.104)
902. # [18:31] * Joins: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@p2028-ipngn3201marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
903. # [18:31] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106216.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith)
904. # [18:31] * Joins: eric_carlson (~ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
905. # [18:31] <bLh> Phonegap only supports websql ;[
906. # [18:32] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@c-44dbe555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
907. # [18:32] <bLh> the only alternative i had was key/value storage, which didnt really satisfied me at the point i was developing it
908. # [18:33] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13)
909. # [18:33] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@204.153.192.4)
910. # [18:33] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
911. # [18:33] * Joins: lilmonkey` (~colin@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
912. # [18:33] * Quits: lilmonkey` (~colin@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Changing host)
913. # [18:33] * Joins: lilmonkey` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
914. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> I kinda doubt that webkit will be able to remove websql (for reasons like yours), but nobody else is going to add it, so your "mobile app" won't work on other mobile browsers.
915. # [18:36] * Quits: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@p2028-ipngn3201marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
916. # [18:36] <bLh> yeah, i guess was a big mistake i`ve done, didnt research it enough at that point
917. # [18:36] <bLh> i guess i made myself some extra work ;[
918. # [18:36] * Quits: lilmonkey (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
919. # [18:36] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@70.102.199.158)
920. # [18:37] * lilmonkey` is now known as lilmonkey
921. # [18:40] * GPHemsley wonders why he's the only one who ever has to merge branches with xref
922. # [18:41] <GPHemsley> blame would be cooler if the lines were color-coded by age
923. # [18:41] * Quits: astearns (~astearns@192.150.22.5) (Quit: astearns)
924. # [18:42] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@204.153.192.4) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
925. # [18:42] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106216.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp)
926. # [18:42] * Joins: rdworth (~rworth@209-255-211-4.ip.mcleodusa.net)
927. # [18:43] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@89.143.12.238) (Quit: sedovsek)
928. # [18:43] * Quits: rdworth (~rworth@209-255-211-4.ip.mcleodusa.net) (Client Quit)
929. # [18:44] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@114.160.9.253)
930. # [18:45] * Quits: baku (~baku@204.153.192.4) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
931. # [18:47] * Joins: astearns (~astearns@192.150.22.5)
932. # [18:47] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@s1106216.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 253 seconds)
933. # [18:47] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
934. # [18:48] * Joins: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-fqupjdcrkgeqcikz)
935. # [18:51] <GPHemsley> annevk: When you move the web-apps-tracker to github, did you set the site up to automatically pick up changes?
936. # [18:51] <GPHemsley> +d
937. # [18:53] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, doesn't look like it, afaict
938. # [18:54] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: So committing to that repo will do nothing? :P
939. # [18:54] * Joins: danzik17 (~danzik17@164.55.254.106)
940. # [18:54] * Joins: zdobersek1 (~zan@cpe-90-157-128-80.dynamic.amis.net)
941. # [18:55] * Parts: JonathanNeal (~anonymous@cpe-142-11-82-156.socal.rr.com)
942. # [18:55] <Ms2ger> GPHemsley, maybe the password is in the private repo ;)
943. # [18:57] <GPHemsley> Ms2ger: If it is, then I don't know what I'm looking for.
944. # [18:57] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:149:4:1b01:60b1:a044:dc5f:6b28)
945. # [18:57] <GPHemsley> ow, my eyes! http://html5.org/tools/
946. # [18:58] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-90-157-128-80.dynamic.amis.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
947. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> Hah
948. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> Looks like an anneism
949. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> Argh dammit
950. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> jeezus
951. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> whoever decided that 'lime' should be a named color should be shot.
952. # [19:00] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
953. # [19:00] <Ms2ger> lime is nice for tests
954. # [19:00] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
955. # [19:00] * Joins: danzik171 (~danzik17@164.55.254.106)
956. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> True. You should need to set a debug flag in order to use lime. ^_^
957. # [19:01] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
958. # [19:02] * Quits: zdobersek1 (~zan@cpe-90-157-128-80.dynamic.amis.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
959. # [19:02] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-62-84-226-3.dynamic.amis.net)
960. # [19:03] * Joins: auchenberg (~auchenber@176.222.239.226)
961. # [19:03] * Quits: danzik17 (~danzik17@164.55.254.106) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
962. # [19:05] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
963. # [19:05] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
964. # [19:05] * Joins: pablof (~pablof@144.189.150.129)
965. # [19:07] * Quits: danzik171 (~danzik17@164.55.254.106) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
966. # [19:07] * Quits: auchenberg (~auchenber@176.222.239.226) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
967. # [19:08] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@173-228-64-81.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
968. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> GPHemsley: hahaha
969. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> maybe the purpose is to get you to never visit that URL again but instead bookmark the stuff it links to
970. # [19:11] * Joins: danzik17 (~danzik17@ool-45787007.dyn.optonline.net)
971. # [19:11] * Quits: Stevef (~chatzilla@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
972. # [19:12] * Joins: say2joe (~say2joe@204.56.108.2)
973. # [19:15] <paul_irish> <h1 style="text-transform:uppercase">Title Case</h1> <== If I select and copy/paste that, what case should it be in?
974. # [19:15] * Joins: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:e521:bbae:16cd:33ce)
975. # [19:16] * GPHemsley guess Title Case
976. # [19:16] <GPHemsley> +es
977. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> Pretty sure it's DOM-based.
978. # [19:16] * Quits: shwetank (~shwetank@122.173.250.124) (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
979. # [19:17] <paul_irish> Right now WebKit's behavior is uppercase though Title Case seems much more reasonable to me
980. # [19:17] <paul_irish> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43202#c5
981. # [19:17] <paul_irish> Let me confirm, but iirc Mozilla/IE do Title Case
982. # [19:20] * Parts: say2joe (~say2joe@204.56.108.2)
983. # [19:21] <paul_irish> Confirmed. Opera/IE/FF behavior is to copy the DOM text. WebKit behavior is to copy the transformed text.
984. # [19:22] <paul_irish> What's the best way to resolve this? Does this belong in a spec?
985. # [19:22] <smaug____> yes, but which spec :)
986. # [19:22] <smaug____> someone started a spec for selection handling
987. # [19:23] <smaug____> Ms2ger: maybe you
988. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> Eh?
989. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> Maybe AryehGregor
990. # [19:23] <smaug____> ah, yeah, perhaps Aryeh
991. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> Or, hmm, copy/paste may be hallvors
992. # [19:24] <divya> yeah thats hallvors1
993. # [19:26] * Joins: Stevef (~chatzilla@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
994. # [19:28] <paul_irish> pinging hallvord. thanks
995. # [19:28] * karlcow votes for Title Case too.
996. # [19:28] * Joins: baku (~baku@204.153.192.4)
997. # [19:29] <karlcow> or at least having the option in the browser as a "Copy" (default), "Copy with style", "Copy Markup"
998. # [19:30] * Joins: jsoncorwin (~textual@50-0-204-47.dsl.static.sonic.net)
999. # [19:30] * Joins: espadrine (~thaddee_t@85-218-2-62.dclient.lsne.ch)
1000. # [19:31] * Joins: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron)
1001. # [19:31] * Joins: baku_ (~baku@204.153.192.4)
1002. # [19:32] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@204.153.192.4)
1003. # [19:32] <karlcow> Though I have seen users who loves to have the style and the links copied from a Web page into an html email. So It might depends on the users
1004. # [19:32] * Joins: baku__ (~baku@204.153.192.4)
1005. # [19:33] <Ms2ger> karlcow, style or markup? :)
1006. # [19:33] * Quits: baku (~baku@204.153.192.4) (Client Quit)
1007. # [19:33] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13)
1008. # [19:34] * Quits: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:e521:bbae:16cd:33ce) (Quit: jonlee)
1009. # [19:35] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@vev69-1-82-232-219-95.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
1010. # [19:35] * Joins: SimonSapin1 (~simon@vev69-1-82-232-219-95.fbx.proxad.net)
1011. # [19:36] <karlcow> Ms2ger: I have the impression it is a combination of both.
1012. # [19:36] * Quits: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-fqupjdcrkgeqcikz) (Quit: Leaving.)
1013. # [19:36] * karlcow is trying something
1014. # [19:36] * Quits: SimonSapin1 (~simon@vev69-1-82-232-219-95.fbx.proxad.net) (Read error: No route to host)
1015. # [19:36] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Remote host closed the connection)
1016. # [19:36] * Quits: baku_ (~baku@204.153.192.4) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1017. # [19:36] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@vev69-1-82-232-219-95.fbx.proxad.net)
1018. # [19:41] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@109.133.12.158) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1019. # [19:41] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@vev69-1-82-232-219-95.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1020. # [19:43] <karlcow> Ms2ger: http://www.la-grange.net/2012/11/08/copy-paste
1021. # [19:43] <karlcow> copy on the Web page in Safari
1022. # [19:44] <karlcow> Paste in Adium top left
1023. # [19:44] <karlcow> Paste in Text Mail top right
1024. # [19:44] <karlcow> Paste in Rich Text Mail in bottom right
1025. # [19:45] <karlcow> it depends on the paste context, but at least the rich text information is in the clipboard.
1026. # [19:46] * Joins: skcin7 (~skcin7@c-68-38-156-213.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
1027. # [19:50] * Quits: Somatt_wrk (~somattwrk@darkstar2.fullsix.com) (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com ))
1028. # [19:50] * Joins: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com)
1029. # [19:51] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
1030. # [19:51] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98) (Remote host closed the connection)
1031. # [19:51] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@bcf94.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
1032. # [19:51] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@bcf94.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) (Changing host)
1033. # [19:51] * Joins: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek)
1034. # [19:52] * Quits: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1035. # [19:52] * mhausenblas waves to paul_irish
1036. # [19:53] <mhausenblas> thanks again a million for connecting me with Monsur - we're making good progress, see https://github.com/mhausenblas/enable-cors.org/issues?state=open
1037. # [19:53] * Joins: dbaron_ (~dbaron@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
1038. # [19:53] <paul_irish> :D awesome
1039. # [19:54] <mhausenblas> yeah. you are, indeed! ;)
1040. # [19:54] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.212.152.13)
1041. # [19:55] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1042. # [19:57] * Joins: Druide__ (~Druid@p5B05CF48.dip.t-dialin.net)
1043. # [19:58] * Quits: Druide_ (~Druid@p5B05C4DD.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1044. # [19:59] * Quits: drublic (~drublic@p5098a42b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
1045. # [19:59] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
1046. # [20:00] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-62-84-226-3.dynamic.amis.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
1047. # [20:02] * dbaron_ is now known as dbaron
1048. # [20:02] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
1049. # [20:03] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
1050. # [20:04] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@63.245.219.150)
1051. # [20:06] * Quits: divya (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
1052. # [20:06] * Joins: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-cdebtuvsnvczxhyf)
1053. # [20:06] * Joins: gavin__ (~gavin@people1.scl3.mozilla.com)
1054. # [20:07] * Quits: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-cdebtuvsnvczxhyf) (Client Quit)
1055. # [20:07] * Quits: jarek (~jarek@unaffiliated/jarek) (Quit: Leaving)
1056. # [20:08] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1057. # [20:08] * Joins: jacobolu_ (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net)
1058. # [20:10] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@63.245.219.150) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
1059. # [20:10] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@50-0-133-210.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1060. # [20:10] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: :tiuQ tiuq sah woclrak)
1061. # [20:11] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.107.126)
1062. # [20:11] * Quits: jsoncorwin (~textual@50-0-204-47.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1063. # [20:11] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p50829CAC.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Verlassend)
1064. # [20:12] * Joins: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-222.net-80-236-80.issy.rev.numericable.fr)
1065. # [20:17] * Quits: reinaldob (~reinaldob@201.74.207.100) (Remote host closed the connection)
1066. # [20:23] * Joins: divya (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
1067. # [20:23] * Joins: jsoncorwin (~textual@50-0-204-47.dsl.static.sonic.net)
1068. # [20:23] * Joins: RobbertAtWork (~robbertat@212.238.236.229)
1069. # [20:24] * Joins: say2joe (~say2joe@204.56.108.2)
1070. # [20:25] * ojan_away is now known as ojan
1071. # [20:25] * Quits: astearns (~astearns@192.150.22.5) (Quit: astearns)
1072. # [20:25] * Joins: astearns (~astearns@192.150.22.5)
1073. # [20:28] * Quits: jsoncorwin (~textual@50-0-204-47.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1074. # [20:29] * Quits: divya (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
1075. # [20:30] * Joins: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-adjvtxcctultsyqj)
1076. # [20:34] * jacobolu_ is now known as jacobolus
1077. # [20:35] * Quits: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-adjvtxcctultsyqj) (Quit: Leaving.)
1078. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> eleven sparql specifications published today
1079. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> woooo
1080. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> making it up for it in volume
1081. # [20:37] * Joins: drublic (~drublic@frbg-4d02816e.pool.mediaWays.net)
1082. # [20:44] * Quits: Stevef (~chatzilla@cpc20-nmal18-2-0-cust76.19-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1083. # [20:46] * Quits: gavin__ (~gavin@people1.scl3.mozilla.com) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1084. # [20:46] * Joins: gavin (~gavin@people1.scl3.mozilla.com)
1085. # [20:46] * Quits: gavin (~gavin@people1.scl3.mozilla.com) (Changing host)
1086. # [20:46] * Joins: gavin (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
1087. # [20:47] * Joins: jsoncorwin (~textual@c-67-170-235-108.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
1088. # [20:48] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@204.153.192.4) (Quit: sicking)
1089. # [20:51] * GPHemsley hates it when he forgets to resolve a bug when he makes a comment about resolving it.
1090. # [20:51] <GPHemsley> IOW: Yay bugspam!
1091. # [20:56] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaaae-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
1092. # [20:59] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@v-1045.fw1.sfo1.mozilla.net)
1093. # [21:05] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaaae-74736162.cust.telenor.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
1094. # [21:14] * Joins: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:7c02:feda:9432:d53)
1095. # [21:17] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@204.153.192.4)
1096. # [21:19] * Quits: jarib (~jarib@unaffiliated/jarib) (Excess Flood)
1097. # [21:19] * Joins: jarib (~jarib@unaffiliated/jarib)
1098. # [21:19] * Quits: jarib (~jarib@unaffiliated/jarib) (Excess Flood)
1099. # [21:20] * Joins: jarib (~jarib@unaffiliated/jarib)
1100. # [21:20] * Joins: reinaldob (~reinaldob@201.74.207.100)
1101. # [21:23] * Joins: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra)
1102. # [21:28] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@114.160.9.253) (Quit: MikeSmith)
1103. # [21:36] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
1104. # [21:37] * Quits: reinaldob (~reinaldob@201.74.207.100) (Remote host closed the connection)
1105. # [21:39] * Quits: jonlee|afk (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:7c02:feda:9432:d53) (Quit: jonlee|afk)
1106. # [21:40] <Hixie> what's the snapshot state for, in the File API?
1107. # [21:41] * Joins: jonlee (~jonlee@2620:149:4:1b01:458d:fbff:4d1b:bf22)
1108. # [21:45] <Hixie> i gotta say, the File API spec has reached a point where it's pretty well written
1109. # [21:46] <Hixie> nice work
1110. # [21:46] <Hixie> (sicking: ^)
1111. # [21:46] <sicking> Hixie: all credit should go to Arun
1112. # [21:47] <sicking> Hixie: now the only problem is that I think FileReader uses the wrong model :)
1113. # [21:47] <sicking> Hixie: we should have had blob.readAsX methods instead, which return promise-like objects
1114. # [21:48] * Joins: lilmonkey` (~colin@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
1115. # [21:48] * Quits: lilmonkey` (~colin@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Changing host)
1116. # [21:48] * Joins: lilmonkey` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
1117. # [21:50] <Hixie> sicking: oh i wasn't talking about the design, just the actual spec writing :-)
1118. # [21:50] <sicking> Hixie: yeah, i know
1119. # [21:50] * Quits: yodasw16 (~yodasw16@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com) (Quit: yodasw16)
1120. # [21:50] <Hixie> sicking: as the editor of the html spec, i understand only too well the difficulty of designing these things :-P
1121. # [21:51] <Hixie> (i don't really know of anything in the html spec that i wouldn't change in some way or other if we could start over)
1122. # [21:51] * Quits: lilmonkey (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1123. # [21:58] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@140.203.154.5) (Quit: http://mhausenblas.info/#i says TTYL)
1124. # [21:59] * Joins: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-uxfbicjwjgguvchy)
1125. # [21:59] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
1126. # [22:00] * Joins: divya (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
1127. # [22:01] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
1128. # [22:03] * Quits: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
1129. # [22:04] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@8.25.197.24) (Remote host closed the connection)
1130. # [22:04] * Quits: SimonSapin (~simon@ip-222.net-80-236-80.issy.rev.numericable.fr) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1131. # [22:04] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@8.25.197.24)
1132. # [22:06] * Quits: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-uxfbicjwjgguvchy) (Quit: Leaving.)
1133. # [22:07] * rniwa|away is now known as rniwa
1134. # [22:12] * Quits: alrra (~alrra@unaffiliated/alrra) (Remote host closed the connection)
1135. # [22:13] * Quits: Plashtop (~Plashtop@c-76-122-27-92.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1136. # [22:14] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
1137. # [22:17] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.105.178.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
1138. # [22:18] * Quits: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251) (Remote host closed the connection)
1139. # [22:18] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
1140. # [22:20] * Joins: vikash (~vikash@1.186.11.39)
1141. # [22:20] * Quits: vikash (~vikash@1.186.11.39) (Changing host)
1142. # [22:20] * Joins: vikash (~vikash@unaffiliated/vikash)
1143. # [22:31] * Joins: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-mgkybbvisjbnmwpe)
1144. # [22:32] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1145. # [22:34] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.19.229.getinternet.no)
1146. # [22:37] * Quits: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-mgkybbvisjbnmwpe) (Quit: Leaving.)
1147. # [22:40] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1148. # [22:46] * Quits: divya (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
1149. # [22:47] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
1150. # [22:48] * Joins: divya (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
1151. # [22:49] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.107.126) (Quit: othermaciej)
1152. # [22:49] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
1153. # [22:50] * Quits: divya (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com) (Client Quit)
1154. # [22:53] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181151161.pp.htv.fi)
1155. # [22:53] * Joins: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-jkhxrvabrvfkqiol)
1156. # [22:54] * Quits: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-jkhxrvabrvfkqiol) (Client Quit)
1157. # [22:56] <gsnedders> HTML6?
1158. # [22:56] <gsnedders> Oh, wait, that was already done!
1159. # [22:57] * Joins: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@p2028-ipngn3201marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
1160. # [23:02] * Quits: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@p2028-ipngn3201marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1161. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> Fun times: Fixing a parsing quirk to be strict, like FF and IE are, and finding that it causes a test to fail. The test has a note saying that it's making sure we're loose, because FF and IE are.
1162. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> Races to the bottom are great.
1163. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> (Even better when we can arrest them and go back up.)
1164. # [23:06] * Joins: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-fduthhdowzagzwan)
1165. # [23:07] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: :tiuQ tiuq sah woclrak)
1166. # [23:07] <smaug____> TabAtkins: how old is the test?
1167. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> smaug____: Haven't checked, but clearly old.
1168. # [23:08] <smaug____> since hsivonen's parser is quite different from the old Gecko parser
1169. # [23:08] * Joins: snowfox (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
1170. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> This is a CSS parser thing.
1171. # [23:08] <smaug____> ah
1172. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> How to parse @charset.
1173. # [23:09] * Quits: necolas (~necolas@8.25.197.24) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1174. # [23:09] * Quits: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
1175. # [23:09] * snowfox is now known as snowfox_ben
1176. # [23:09] * Quits: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Client Quit)
1177. # [23:11] * Joins: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
1178. # [23:11] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
1179. # [23:12] * Quits: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Max SendQ exceeded)
1180. # [23:12] * Joins: necolas (~necolas@8.25.197.24)
1181. # [23:14] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
1182. # [23:14] * Quits: isherman-book (Adium@nat/google/x-fduthhdowzagzwan) (Quit: Leaving.)
1183. # [23:25] * Quits: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron) (Quit: Leaving.)
1184. # [23:29] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
1185. # [23:30] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@109.133.12.158)
1186. # [23:30] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
1187. # [23:38] * Joins: divya (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
1188. # [23:41] * Quits: griswold (~quassel@blackhole.space150.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
1189. # [23:45] * Quits: skcin7 (~skcin7@c-68-38-156-213.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
1190. # [23:45] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@204.153.192.4) (Quit: sicking)
1191. # [23:53] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
1192. # [23:53] * Joins: griswold (~quassel@san.space150.com)
1193. # [23:55] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.97.187)
1194. # [23:56] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@204.153.192.4)
1195. # Session Close: Fri Nov 09 00:00:00 2012

The end :)