/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-11-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 13 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:02] <zcorpan> annevk: WIP http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1911
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  11. # [00:03] <annevk> genius
  12. # [00:04] <zcorpan> with this in the textarea:
  13. # [00:04] <zcorpan> M17,66C21,63,43,76,37,68
  14. # [00:04] <zcorpan> M33,75a8,8,0,0,16,8
  15. # [00:04] <zcorpan> M50,84C68,49,57,90,63,77,
  16. # [00:04] <zcorpan> 66,58,75,87,71,69,
  17. # [00:04] <zcorpan> 68,62,74,65,78,66
  18. # [00:04] <zcorpan> M65,62C57,64,64,71,67,64
  19. # [00:04] <zcorpan> M47,60L43,69,44,69,51,66
  20. # [00:04] <zcorpan> M50,52C47,60,53,54,52,60,
  21. # [00:04] <zcorpan> 50,68,62,60,57,62,
  22. # [00:04] <zcorpan> 58,54,65,60,59,54,
  23. # [00:04] <zcorpan> 48,42,20,25,29,37
  24. # [00:06] <annevk> neat
  25. # [00:07] <annevk> you're better than I am at this
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  27. # [00:07] <annevk> my skills fall apart when things go round :-)
  28. # [00:07] <annevk> "skills"
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  30. # [00:11] <zcorpan> if you look at where the points go in a bezier curve, you kinda know where to click, and then i just tweak the values a bit
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  32. # [00:12] <annevk> make a short documentary, "Creation of the XMLHttpRequest logo"
  33. # [00:12] * annevk would watch it
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  38. # [00:15] <zcorpan> "instead of using a proper authoring tool i hacked together my own, inefficient, and annoying-to-use "tool" in live dom viewer"
  39. # [00:16] <zcorpan> maybe i should work on an svg authoring tool that sucks less
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  41. # [00:17] <annevk> "use Live DOM Viewer for all the things"
  42. # [00:18] <annevk> I do that too
  43. # [00:18] <gsnedders> x-x-big5 not in HTML in any more?
  44. # [00:18] <annevk> sometimes I need to write some HTML, so I open Live DOM Viewer
  45. # [00:19] <annevk> gsnedders: HTML is going to use http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/
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  57. # [00:21] <gsnedders> Sorry, 386 occuring.
  58. # [00:21] <Hixie> the quirk and encoding logos are still the best ones
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  79. # [00:39] <zcorpan> annevk: quirks.spec doesn't seem to update
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  87. # [00:58] <GPHemsley> annevk: It was my own personal workaround, especially since the PNG was already there. I can certainly file a browser bug on the issue, though.
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  172. # [04:22] <GPHemsley> Hixie: To confirm, I should nix sniffing archives specifically, but keep the rest?
  173. # [04:23] <GPHemsley> Or comment out the rest?
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  182. # [04:54] <GPHemsley> Interesting...
  183. # [04:54] <GPHemsley> apparently tagging a <tr> with class=XXX adds an extra cell to the row
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  185. # [04:56] <GPHemsley> ...which seems to stem from having content :before
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  249. # [06:10] <navin> hi
  250. # [06:12] <navin> hello
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  268. # [06:56] <kennyluck> Was there ever a thread on whatwg talking about changing <img> to a non-void element?
  269. # [06:56] <kennyluck> I am being asked by some folks about this idea. I am pretty sure it's a crazy idea, but it would be nice to share some old discussions of course.
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  277. # [07:06] <Aniruddh> Hi
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  280. # [07:24] <Aniruddh> Welcome to #whatwg dbaron
  281. # [07:24] <kennyluck> orz
  282. # [07:25] <dbaron> Aniruddh, it's better not to welcome individual people (especially when you don't know them); many people have IRC clients configured to join many channels at once, and asking for their attention is unnecessary.
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  284. # [07:26] <Aniruddh> Welcome to #whatwg Somatt_wrk
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  287. # [07:29] <Aniruddh> Welcome to #whatwg ehsan
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  289. # [07:30] <Aniruddh> Welcome to #whatwg tomasf
  290. # [07:30] <gavin> Aniruddh: are you a bot?
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  292. # [07:33] <Aniruddh> Welcome to #whatwg yoshiaki
  293. # [07:33] <yoshiaki> thank you, Aniruddh
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  301. # [07:46] <Aniruddh> Welcome to #whatwg mattgifford
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  303. # [07:48] <Aniruddh> Welcome to #whatwg Transfusion
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  305. # [07:48] <Aniruddh> Welcome to #whatwg maikmerten
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  307. # [07:48] <Aniruddh> Welcome to #whatwg Mr-ex777
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  310. # [07:50] <Aniruddh> Welcome to #whatwg capella
  311. # [07:51] * capella mozillians be there
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  315. # [07:52] <Aniruddh> Welcome to #whatwg jayne
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  318. # [07:53] <Aniruddh> Welcome to #whatwg mattgifford
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  320. # [07:53] <Aniruddh> Welcome to #whatwg yoshiaki
  321. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie: if you have a second can you maybe please kick Aniruddh
  322. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> seems like it must be some bot
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  324. # [07:58] <hsivonen> twisting polyglot enough to lose the endorsement of TAG members? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19925#c7
  325. # [08:00] <Aniruddh> Hi
  326. # [08:00] * Quits: Somatt_wrk (~somattwrk@darkstar2.fullsix.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  327. # [08:00] <Aniruddh> Sorry, I had bot mode activated
  328. # [08:00] <Aniruddh> I was afk
  329. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: clearly the solution here is, we need two specs: one "HTML/XHTML Compatibility Authoring Guide" and one "Robust Profile for Documents which Compensates for Imperfect Parsers" https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19925#c9
  330. # [08:08] <annevk> zcorpan: looks updated to me
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  332. # [08:09] <annevk> zcorpan: I think GitHub had some issues yesterday, might be a hickup on their end
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  335. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> btw I added collection of statistics on POST input type (textarea vs file input vs entity-body) to the validator statistics code
  336. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: looking at the stats for validator.nu vs html5.validator.nu it seems like they're being used quite differently
  337. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> e.g., GET-based input for validator.nu is only 6%
  338. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> also 89% JSON output
  339. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> which would seem to be from some third-party service
  340. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> or services
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  346. # [09:01] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I suspect the main user of validator.nu is Roger Johansson’s Firefox extension, but that’s just a guess
  347. # [09:02] <MikeSmith> OK
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  418. # [11:12] <matjas> ok, http://mathias.html5.org/specs/javascript/ 301s to http://javascript.spec.whatwg.org/
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  567. # [11:27] <annevk> matjas: btw, if you want you can use the new xref repository
  568. # [11:27] <annevk> matjas: https://github.com/whatwg/xref
  569. # [11:27] <annevk> matjas: specification-data is no longer maintained
  570. # [11:28] <annevk> matjas: see the other specs for how to make Anolis use it
  571. # [11:28] <darobin> ah, that's good to know for my integration project too
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  577. # [11:28] <annevk> darobin: ah yeah, was meaning to ping you about that at some point
  578. # [11:28] <annevk> darobin: and maybe figure out if I can patch Anolis to make it all work somehow
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  583. # [11:28] <darobin> annevk: no worries, I'm rather far behind on actually putting that together tbh
  584. # [11:29] <darobin> I'd initially planned to do that during TPAC, but TTWF folks seemed to want a WebIDL.js update more
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  598. # [11:31] <matjas> annevk: thanks, will do
  599. # [11:31] <matjas> annevk: btw how/when does javascript.spec.whatwg.org get updated? are you using GitHub hooks for that, or what?
  600. # [11:32] <annevk> matjas: yes, see the admin panel
  601. # [11:32] <annevk> matjas: a shell script fetches index.html from GitHub
  602. # [11:32] <annevk> matjas: note that using whatwg/xref requires updating Anolis
  603. # [11:33] <matjas> lol @ cgi-script URL
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  630. # [13:16] <zcorpan> http://resources.whatwg.org/logo-xhr.svg
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  632. # [13:19] <beverloo> haha
  633. # [13:19] <beverloo> not everone may get that reference :)
  634. # [13:20] <zcorpan> that's fine
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  636. # [13:21] <zcorpan> wonder why firefox doesn't render all lines
  637. # [13:22] <kennyluck> Is there any presentation in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Presentations that talks about why folks should participate in the Standards community?
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  639. # [13:23] <zcorpan> hmm seems that page hasn't been updated lately :-(
  640. # [13:25] <zcorpan> kennyluck: quick scan suggests no
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  642. # [13:25] <zcorpan> kennyluck: what's the audience?
  643. # [13:25] <kennyluck> zcorpan, hmm OK thanks.
  644. # [13:26] <kennyluck> I am going to do a video presentation on Sunday to kids so I am brainstorming on how to persuade them to join these kids of effort.
  645. # [13:26] <kennyluck> You know, kids like to create apps.
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  648. # [13:27] <kennyluck> Perhaps I would say saying in this line "by contributing to standards, you are for sure not doing any make work (meaning that Standards never fails). "
  649. # [13:27] <kennyluck> s/kids of effort/kinds of effort/
  650. # [13:27] * drublic__ is now known as drublic
  651. # [13:28] <zcorpan> "If you want to be in the Time Wasting Business, choose Standards!"
  652. # [13:28] <kennyluck> *shrug*
  653. # [13:30] <zcorpan> maybe point out that it's easier to contribute than they might think, and that it's not a magic castle
  654. # [13:31] <zcorpan> i mean, it's easier to get involved than they might think. getting what they want done get done might be harder than they think
  655. # [13:32] <kennyluck> Yeah, that makes sense.
  656. # [13:33] <jgraham> It's not a magic castle?
  657. # [13:33] * jgraham cries
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  662. # Session Close: Tue Nov 13 13:44:06 2012
  663. #
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  665. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  669. # [13:45] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  680. # [14:08] <zcorpan> seems i hit https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=629897
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  685. # [14:17] <kennyluck> zcorpan, yeah, I think the rule here is that you can't have a comma before a command.
  686. # [14:17] <zcorpan> opera and webkit ignore the comma
  687. # [14:19] <zcorpan> it seems like a silly restriction. d="" allows you to omit commands, commas, zeros, spaces, and do all sorts of things, but is unforgiving when it comes to an *extra* comma
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  691. # [14:25] <zcorpan> is "const" specified yet?
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  699. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: just replied to that bug
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  701. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> I guess to fix this I get to become the maintainer for the SVG 1.1 schema
  702. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> since the SVG WG refuses to take any responsibility for it
  703. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> ah great
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  705. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> attribute d { PathData.datatype }
  706. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> PathData.datatype = xsd:string
  707. # [14:36] <MikeSmith> gotta love the precision there
  708. # [14:36] <zcorpan> anything goes?
  709. # [14:36] <MikeSmith> yeah
  710. # [14:37] <zcorpan> excellent
  711. # [14:37] <kennyluck> zcorpan, (re. opera and webkit ignore the comma) That's not quite true either, you can't put a comma but a space after a command in WebKit and Opera, so… *shrug*
  712. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> $ grep "datatype =" * | wc -l
  713. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> 52
  714. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> $ grep "datatype =" * | grep "xsd:string" | wc -l
  715. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> 45
  716. # [14:38] <zcorpan> kennyluck: ok
  717. # [14:38] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: so now you have something to work on eh?
  718. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> hah
  719. # [14:39] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  722. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> oh god
  723. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> It's not even clear from the spec what the microsyntax of that d attribute is supposed to be
  724. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/paths.html#DAttribute
  725. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> "The definition of the outline of a shape. See Path data."
  726. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> ok, so let's take a look at the definition of "Path data"
  727. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/paths.html#PathData
  728. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> ah sweet
  729. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/paths.html#PathDataBNF
  730. # [14:48] <zcorpan> also http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/implnote.html#PathElementImplementationNotes
  731. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> yes, let's define the allowed value for a attribute using BNF
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  735. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: so what is it basically? just a comma-separated list of three items?
  736. # [14:55] <zcorpan> it's not necessarily comma-separated, but it's a flat list
  737. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> god almighty
  738. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> and the items in the list can have spaces in them?
  739. # [14:55] <zcorpan> you have a command, then something following it depending on what the command is
  740. # [14:55] <zcorpan> yes
  741. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> wow
  742. # [14:57] <zcorpan> it would be nice to have helpful error messages here, like "hey dude you have a comma here that i didn't expect, remove it" rather than "attribute "d" invalid"
  743. # [14:57] <zcorpan> i'm not sure what that implies in terms of impl
  744. # [14:58] <zcorpan> but i guess more of a parser than a regex
  745. # [14:58] <jgraham> Yeah, I was going to say :)
  746. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> well there's a way to use a regexp with capturing groups that allows further checking of the capturing groups
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  748. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> it's what we're using to check datetime values for the time element
  749. # [15:00] <zcorpan> ok
  750. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> I wonder if anybody has written a regexp for svg path data already
  751. # [15:00] <MikeSmith> if so that'd be a start at least
  752. # [15:00] * jgraham wonders if java has something more like parsec
  753. # [15:01] <hsivonen> about implied </p> being a feature: https://twitter.com/julien_igel/status/268175514261401601
  754. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> jgraham: don't know what parsec is but I doubt java has anything more than the matcher stuff we're using
  755. # [15:02] <jgraham> Haskell parser library
  756. # [15:02] <jgraham> Supposed to be good, but I haven't ever used it :)
  757. # [15:02] <MikeSmith> ok
  758. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> "An inline <div> is spelled <span> ever since HTML 4. "
  759. # [15:03] <MikeSmith> heh
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  774. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> oh boy
  775. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/2002/01/pathdata.re
  776. # [15:45] <hsivonen> “now you have two problems”
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  778. # [15:46] <darobin> hsivonen: it gets a lot more interesting if you use that regex in an XML Schema type :)
  779. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> do we have Dean to thank for that?
  780. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/10650
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  782. # [15:49] <darobin> MikeSmith: yeah, though IIRC there are later versions by me lying around
  783. # [15:50] <MikeSmith> ok
  784. # [15:51] <darobin> honestly though I really don't think that you want a regex here
  785. # [15:51] <zewt> hsivonen: only two?
  786. # [15:51] <darobin> this is substantially more complicated than datetime
  787. # [15:51] <darobin> or rather, it's substantially longer so providing good error reporting on a regex is going to be painful at best
  788. # [15:52] <darobin> it's not impossible that the current SVG RNG is based on the one I made a loooong time ago, if so I can probably help with tweaking
  789. # [15:52] <darobin> (assuming I recall how that stuff works)
  790. # [15:53] <darobin> you'll find that most of the attribute values are indeed strings because there's rarely much useful stuff you can do within the constraints of XSD simple types
  791. # [15:53] <shepazu> darobin: we'd love if you could help us with an RNG for SVG 2
  792. # [15:53] <darobin> (which is what RNG uses, or rather, what's implemented)
  793. # [15:54] <darobin> shepazu: that might be possible at some point :)
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  796. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> what's the current home for anolis?
  797. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: your repo?
  798. # [16:01] <Ms2ger> Yeah
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  800. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> ok
  801. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  808. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I find http://xn--dahlstrm-t4a.net/svg/tools/scour/svg_regex.py from Erik
  809. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> which might be port-able
  810. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> and which seems to do at least some actual error reporting
  811. # [16:18] <zcorpan> yeah
  812. # [16:19] <zcorpan> wonder if it's up to date
  813. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> dunno but if it's not I'd guess Erik might could be convinced to update it
  814. # [16:21] <matjas> ping jgraham
  815. # [16:22] <jgraham> matjas: If this is about escapes, I don't think I know the answer :)
  816. # [16:22] <matjas> jgraham: ah, i was just wondering if you got the message or not
  817. # [16:22] <matjas> jgraham: fair enough. any idea where this requirement originates from?
  818. # [16:22] <jgraham> Yeah, sorry, I have been a bit behind on replying
  819. # [16:22] <matjas> no worries
  820. # [16:23] <jgraham> I have no memory of it at all. Did I actually add it to the original wiki page or was it someone else?
  821. # [16:23] <matjas> it was you :)
  822. # [16:23] <jgraham> Oh
  823. # [16:23] <jgraham> Maybe I had been hyponotized
  824. # [16:24] <matjas> http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Web_ECMAScript&diff=3938&oldid=3798
  825. # [16:24] <TabAtkins> jarek, annevk: The IRI without url() behavior is totally bogus. WebKit has several serialization bugs where the value obviously won't round-trip.
  826. # [16:25] <matjas> jgraham: ok, i’ll remove it then. thanks!
  827. # [16:26] <TabAtkins> darobin: Pathdata sounds like a relatively trivial regex to write, actually. There's nothing optional, and the structure is simple.
  828. # [16:26] <TabAtkins> I could understand error-reporting being annoying, though.
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  830. # [16:27] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: "There's nothing optional" doesn't sound right
  831. # [16:28] <TabAtkins> All of the path commands have a very strict syntax.
  832. # [16:28] <darobin> TabAtkins: I didn't mean that a regex matching it is hard (it isn't) but one that provides good error reporting is less fun
  833. # [16:29] <TabAtkins> I don't even know how you get "good error reporting" out of a regex.
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  835. # [16:30] <darobin> you haven't done enough Perl :)
  836. # [16:30] <TabAtkins> This is true.
  837. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: https://bitbucket.org/validator/syntax/src/default/relaxng/datatype/java/src/org/whattf/datatype/AbstractDatetime.java?at=default#cl-191
  838. # [16:32] <Ms2ger> You've done more than enough perl if you've never done perl
  839. # [16:33] * darobin thought he heard some strange hissing sound. Weird.
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  842. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> That must've been me spitting at the sound of "perl"
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  844. # [16:36] <darobin> Ms2ger: I'd troll you back, but frankly with Python it just seems unfair
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  847. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> hmm Java doesn't have anything like Python "yield"
  848. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> as far as I know
  849. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> (I mention because Erik's pathdata parser uses it)
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  858. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> maybe the pathdata parsing code from Batik might be usable for validation
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  860. # [16:46] <darobin> MikeSmith: googling around brings up some Java implementation of yield
  861. # [16:46] <darobin> (not sure if any of those is any good)
  862. # [16:47] <MikeSmith> ok
  863. # [16:47] <darobin> e.g. http://jimblackler.net/blog/?p=61
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  865. # [16:47] <MikeSmith> thanks
  866. # [16:47] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Surely in java you wouldn't use that, but would use a class to store state
  867. # [16:48] * jgraham doesn't really know how iteration in java typically works
  868. # [16:49] <darobin> jgraham: you cast a subclass of the iterator interface through using a pattern factory
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  871. # [16:54] <jgraham> Can't tell if joking or java
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  874. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> hah
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  879. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> so http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/xmlgraphics/batik/branches/svg11/sources/org/apache/batik/parser/PathParser.java looks like it might actually be useable as a starting point at least
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  881. # [17:05] <darobin> MikeSmith: if you need help pinging heycam is prolly the right thing to do there
  882. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> ok
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  901. # [17:41] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  921. # [18:17] <heycam> MikeSmith, there's some info here on using Batik's parser classes: http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/batik/using/parsers.html
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  926. # [18:26] <[tm]> heycam: thanks
  927. # [18:28] <[tm]> hoping i can repurpose some of that code without needing to depend on a bunch of other batik code
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  929. # [18:29] <[tm]> the stuff in the abstract superclass
  930. # [18:31] <heycam> I can't remember how tightly it is entwined with the rest of it, but hopefully not too much
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  932. # [18:33] <[tm]> anyway in trying to prioritize my choice of what to work on as far as my contributions to the validator code, a simple rule I've tried to follow is, if zcorpan files a bug, i try to fix it
  933. # [18:34] <[tm]> that rule has worked out pretty well so far
  934. # [18:34] <heycam> sounds like a fine strategy
  935. # [18:34] <[tm]> yeah
  936. # [18:35] <jgraham> That is also how Opera's bugtracker assigns priority
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  938. # [18:35] <jgraham> (not really)
  939. # [18:35] <jgraham> (but maybe it should)
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  983. # [19:31] <GPHemsley> annevk: Can you figure out what's going on with the encoding here? http://atlc.sourceforge.net/bmp.html#_toc381201084
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  985. # [19:35] <GPHemsley> (The tagged encoding is clearly not correct.)
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  994. # [19:46] * GPHemsley wonders who it helps to have file format specs use C code instead of describing the bytes.
  995. # [19:46] <jsbell> hackers?
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  1011. # [20:19] <Hixie> GPHemsley: implementors, they can copy the data straight out
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  1049. # [21:29] <Yuhong> Just installed IE10 for Win7 Release Preview released today!
  1050. # [21:29] <Yuhong> Results for http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1905 in IE10 mode: false, true
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  1103. # [23:49] * Quits: skcin7 (~skcin7@c-68-38-156-213.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
  1104. # [23:49] * eric_carlson is now known as ericc|afk
  1105. # [23:51] * Quits: mamund (mamund@obsidian.recompiled.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  1106. # [23:52] * abstractj|brb is now known as abstractj
  1107. # [23:52] * Quits: renanivo (~renanivo@177.126.186.3) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1108. # [23:57] * Joins: yoshu (~josh@150.135.118.9)
  1109. # [23:58] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@64.213.70.194) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1110. # [23:59] * Quits: sedovsek (~robert@BSN-176-168-104.dial-up.dsl.siol.net) (Quit: sedovsek)
  1111. # Session Close: Wed Nov 14 00:00:00 2012

The end :)