/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-11-14 / end

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  59. # [01:53] <Hixie> TabAtkins: does an element htat is display:none ahve a computer 'color' ?
  60. # [01:53] <Hixie> er
  61. # [01:53] <Hixie> typo central
  62. # [01:53] <Hixie> TabAtkins: does an element that is 'display:none' have a computed value for its 'color' property?
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  65. # [01:56] <Hixie> dbaron: you might know the answer too ^
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  83. # [02:37] <Hixie> hm, @font-face in a worker
  84. # [02:37] <Hixie> damn
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  87. # [02:40] <Hixie> well that puts a damper on things, doesn't it
  88. # [02:40] <Hixie> time to go home i think; good luck figuring this one out, future hixie.
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  109. # [03:11] <dbaron> Hixie, I don't see any reason it would have a computed value
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  135. # [04:10] <zewt> i hate working in reference-counted GC environments; idioms that you just expect to work don't
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  143. # [04:30] <annevk> zcorpan: that logo is awesome
  144. # [04:31] <Hixie> which one?
  145. # [04:31] <annevk> http://resources.whatwg.org/logo-xhr.svg
  146. # [04:32] <Hixie> data:text/html,<style>body { font: 35em sans-serif;}</style><center>o_O
  147. # [04:33] <annevk> heh
  148. # [04:33] <annevk> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Ajax for context
  149. # [04:33] <Hixie> lol
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  290. # [10:04] <hsivonen> annevk: Do you know of anyone implementing Encoding Standard-compliant converters that output UTF-8 and that are implemented in C/C++?
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  330. # [10:51] <zcorpan> annevk: thanks
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  341. # [11:21] <zcorpan> i wanted to +1 Hixie's email about [hidden] but didn't
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  362. # [12:44] <smaug____> am I allowed to hate Ranges a bit
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  364. # [12:47] <jgraham> No
  365. # [12:47] <jgraham> Only a lot
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  369. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> I wonder who is was who coined the term "drive-by Web"
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  372. # [13:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what does the term mean?
  373. # [13:00] <hsivonen> annevk: maybe the Encoding Standard should have a security considerations section about stuff like https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=408457#c99
  374. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: as far as I can tell it just means the Web
  375. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> but the people who use it do so in order to contrast the Web with something that's not the Web but that they don't actually have a name for
  376. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> so instead of naming that other thing, they call the Web the "drive-by Web"
  377. # [13:02] * hsivonen wonders how the Web is drive-by
  378. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> this practice seems to be limited just to members of the Google Chrome engineering team
  379. # [13:02] <hsivonen> strange
  380. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I suspect the term originally came from security discussion of "drive by" exploits on the Web
  381. # [13:03] <jgraham> So this means something like "web where SOP is the security model"
  382. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, pretty much
  383. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> as far as I can tell
  384. # [13:04] <jgraham> As opposed to "non-web downloadable stuff that happens to reuse the web stack"
  385. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> yup
  386. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> anyway for the latest seen-in-the-wild usage of the term, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2012OctDec/0470.html
  387. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> from Michael Nordman
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  389. # [13:08] <jgraham> "drive-by web" makes me think of "drive-by shooting", which seems like the wrong image. It's more like the "drive-thru web".
  390. # [13:08] <jgraham> Or, if you don't like long names, "web"
  391. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> I have no idea what it has to do with driving at all.
  392. # [13:09] <hsivonen> should I start speaking about “drive-by UTF-16” instead of just “UTF-16”?
  393. # [13:09] <zcorpan> http://code.google.com/codesearch#search/&q=lang:%5Esgml$&type=cs
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  395. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: heh
  396. # [13:10] * zcorpan notices "HTML" isn't in the drop-down in google code search
  397. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> anyway I think they'd be a lot better off using "off Web" to their other thing
  398. # [13:10] <jgraham> Well it sounds like the metaphor is supposed to be something that is an point on a journey.
  399. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> ok
  400. # [13:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: do we have data about how much utf-16 content there is?
  401. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah I wonder what the rationale is for not providing HTML search
  402. # [13:11] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I don’t
  403. # [13:11] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: lang:html in the search box works, though
  404. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> oh
  405. # [13:12] <zcorpan> but SGML being in the drop-down is pretty surprising
  406. # [13:13] <zcorpan> http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/en-utf16/all/all
  407. # [13:14] <hsivonen> Gives a good impression about a security org to have "confidential" written in the footer of each page of a PDF available by simple HTTP GET from the organization’s site.
  408. # [13:15] <zcorpan> that page gives some URLs we can try to evang if we want to kill utf-16
  409. # [13:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: some of those sites say UTF-16 in <meta> but actually use something ASCII-compatible
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  411. # [13:17] <zcorpan> though the data might be bogus. i checked app.com which uses <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" /> and later has <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-16"?>
  412. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> Orcs.in ?
  413. # [13:18] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I checked six sites none of which actually ended up decoded as UTF-16
  414. # [13:18] <hsivonen> zcorpan: they just have a bogus declaration that doesn’t get honored
  415. # [13:19] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yeah, so not the data we're looking for
  416. # [13:19] <hsivonen> right
  417. # [13:21] <zcorpan> reported the bogusness on twitter
  418. # [13:22] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|brb
  419. # [13:23] <zcorpan> http://trends.builtwith.com/topsites/UTF-16-UCS-2 also appears to have a bogus list of sites
  420. # [13:25] <zcorpan> also reported on twitter
  421. # [13:29] * abstractj|brb is now known as abstractj
  422. # [13:29] <hsivonen> said "confidential" document claims UTF-16 is popular and says “Taiwanese” when meaning “Korean”
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  425. # [13:37] <zcorpan> $ grep -aPic "Content-Type:\s*text/html\s*;\s*charset\s*=\s*[\"']?utf-16(le|be)?" web200904
  426. # [13:37] <zcorpan> 0
  427. # [13:37] <zcorpan> (though maybe they excluded utf-16 content from web200904, intentionally or not)
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  452. # [14:33] <annevk> zcorpan: btw, I'm making the stroke-width 1
  453. # [14:34] <annevk> zcorpan: looks a lot better around the eye
  454. # [14:34] <annevk> GPHemsley: no idea what's wrong with that file
  455. # [14:36] * Quits: reinaldob (~reinaldob@177.114.51.46) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  456. # [14:38] <annevk> insertAdjacentElement / insertAdjacentText are kinda sucky imo given that we just added before/after
  457. # [14:38] <annevk> which are way way nicer
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  474. # [15:09] <annevk> hsivonen: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19961 (security considerations)
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  480. # [15:14] <annevk> hsivonen: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19962 (insertAdjacent... crap)
  481. # [15:15] <zewt> (i thought the "before/after" names were changed to something less confusing)
  482. # [15:17] * Joins: danzik17 (~danzik17@164.55.254.106)
  483. # [15:17] <annevk> (no)
  484. # [15:17] <zewt> (lame)
  485. # [15:17] <annevk> (care)
  486. # [15:17] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  487. # [15:17] <zewt> (i hope you care about good api naming)
  488. # [15:18] <annevk> (of course)
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  490. # [15:20] <hsivonen> crap’s supported by multiple browsers, though, right?
  491. # [15:20] <hsivonen> makes it a feature
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  493. # [15:21] <annevk> dunno, haven't tested Opera
  494. # [15:21] * Joins: yoshiaki_ (~yoshiaki@p2028-ipngn3201marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  495. # [15:22] <annevk> hsivonen: the other weird thing is that Gecko sometimes takes the lead in removing stuff, but maybe this is a case where that cannot be done
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  500. # [15:26] <zcorpan> annevk: i think 2 is closer to the original. i made it thicker to be slightly consistent with the other whatwg logos
  501. # [15:26] <annevk> I tried 2, but it looks ugly
  502. # [15:28] <annevk> hsivonen: so yeah, Opera supports it too
  503. # [15:31] * Quits: izhak (~izhak@213.87.241.218) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  504. # [15:31] <zcorpan> i guess 1.5 is closer to the original
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  509. # [15:35] <annevk> k, I'll change it to that
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  526. # [16:11] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-iri/2012Nov/0021.html maybe if they stopped publishing in ASCII...
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  529. # [16:14] <smaug____> zcorpan: what does grep -aPc "\.insertAdjacent(Text|Element)\s*\(" stevef-all mean?
  530. # [16:14] <zcorpan> smaug____: it's this data set http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2012/04/html5-accessibility-chops-data-for-the-masses/
  531. # [16:14] <smaug____> also, I assume even 85 is very low number
  532. # [16:14] <zcorpan> yeah
  533. # [16:15] <zcorpan> that data set is about 600,000 pages iirc
  534. # [16:16] <smaug____> not too many
  535. # [16:16] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|lunch
  536. # [16:17] <zcorpan> so at most it's 0.014%
  537. # [16:17] <zcorpan> but that data set is pretty old now
  538. # [16:17] <smaug____> 0.0.14 doesn't sound a good reason to add somewhat bad API to web
  539. # [16:21] * Quits: MacTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  540. # [16:22] <zcorpan> i guess there's also not so much incentive for opera/webkit/ie to remove it, since doing so can make some pages to stop working (they might work in firefox due to different code paths)
  541. # [16:22] * Joins: divya (~nimbu@sjfw1-a.adobe.com)
  542. # [16:23] <zcorpan> but we have removed old IEisms and continue to do so. maybe this is something that should be removed as well.
  543. # [16:24] <zcorpan> also these data sets don't have external scripts
  544. # [16:25] * Joins: mattgifford (~mattgiffo@108.161.20.199)
  545. # [16:30] <annevk> zcorpan: any chance the IDNA implementor is going to deny/confirm what I posted?
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  550. # [16:33] <zcorpan> annevk: i can ping him
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  555. # [16:39] <zcorpan> oh, i didn't know brucel came up with "scooby doo". i thought jgraham made it up on the spot at tpac.
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  559. # [16:41] <darobin> zcorpan: no, it's classic brucel :)
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  562. # [16:47] * Ms2ger thought he knew "scooby doo" from elsewhere
  563. # [16:49] <darobin> Ms2ger: I think they also made a TV show out of it
  564. # [16:50] <jgraham> Sorry, I should have made it clear that I'm not a comic genius
  565. # [16:50] <jgraham> Although frankly I thought it was already obvious
  566. # [16:52] * darobin has often found jgraham quite amusing
  567. # [16:52] <jgraham> You've been laughing at me? :(
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  570. # [16:54] <darobin> jgraham: awwwww
  571. # [16:54] <GPHemsley> I was actually wonder what Scooby Doo had to do with that algorithm...
  572. # [16:54] <GPHemsley> +ing
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  575. # [17:06] * abstractj|lunch is now known as abstractj
  576. # [17:10] <odinho> GPHemsley: Because he always does that kind of deducting.
  577. # [17:10] <GPHemsley> hmm...
  578. # [17:10] <odinho> GPHemsley: "It's not a, it's not b, --- it must be c!!!!112"
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  586. # [17:18] <darobin> speaking of data sets with which to figure out compat issues, this just came up: http://www.w3.org/community/webdevdata/
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  592. # [17:21] <annevk> I wonder why the check for ":" in http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/nsprpub/pr/src/misc/prnetdb.c#1575 is not an "else if"
  593. # [17:21] <annevk> I'm gonna treat as an oversight in that code
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  595. # [17:22] * Joins: Ducki (~Ducki@pD9E381C8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  596. # [17:22] <divya> TabAtkins: PING
  597. # [17:22] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@207.194.125.34)
  598. # [17:24] * jgraham falls over
  599. # [17:24] <jgraham> That was a very loud ping
  600. # [17:24] * Quits: Ducki_ (~Ducki@pD9E38FBB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  601. # [17:24] <TabAtkins> divya: pong
  602. # [17:27] <annevk> zcorpan_: thanks
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  605. # [17:31] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  606. # [17:32] <TabAtkins> divya: For serious, I pong you right back, and you ignore me. SO RUDE.
  607. # [17:34] <annevk> TabAtkins: maybe it didn't work because you replied in lowercase
  608. # [17:34] <TabAtkins> That's what I'm thinking.
  609. # [17:34] <TabAtkins> DIVYA: POOOOOOOONG
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  611. # [17:37] * zcorpan_ sees jgraham fly outside his train
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  617. # [17:43] <divya> TabAtkins: omg
  618. # [17:43] <divya> sorry
  619. # [17:43] <divya> TabAtkins: SORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRY
  620. # [17:43] <TabAtkins> Why you hate jgraham's ears so much?
  621. # [17:43] * jgraham no longer has ears
  622. # [17:44] <divya> ahahah
  623. # [17:45] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
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  627. # [17:50] <odinho> Hmm, so, public ping/pong, but private chat? Good to know that we get all the interesting signaling-bits without all the superflous data noise ;P
  628. # [17:51] <TabAtkins> odinho: You're welcome.
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  630. # [17:52] <divya> ahahaha odinho
  631. # [17:52] * divya reminds self to never use ahaha again
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  645. # [18:13] <annevk> oh man
  646. # [18:14] <annevk> even IPv6 syntax is not interoperable
  647. # [18:14] <annevk> http://[0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:129.144.52.38]/ does not parse in Opera
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  649. # [18:14] <annevk> and http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4291#section-2.5.5.1 seems to suggest this is allowed
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  653. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> no zcorpan
  654. # [18:18] <annevk> which contradicts RFC 3986
  655. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> wanted to ask about SVG path error reporting for the validator
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  658. # [18:18] <annevk> MikeSmith: you want to write a parser for that I think
  659. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> I did
  660. # [18:18] <annevk> MikeSmith: I think in general SVG data types have weak checking
  661. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> well not really
  662. # [18:18] <annevk> MikeSmith: cool
  663. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> yeah
  664. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> I didn't write it
  665. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> I just stole some code from Batik
  666. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> real parsing code
  667. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> anyway I wanted to ask what error message Simon expected for the case he reported
  668. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> which is <path stroke="#000" d="M0,0,L5,5"/>
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  670. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> not that I'm offering a choice
  671. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> just wondering if what it does report is what he expected or not
  672. # [18:21] <annevk> M coordinate expected, none found?
  673. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> hmm so I could probably change it to say that
  674. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> but what is says now is
  675. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> Unexpected character "L"
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  677. # [18:22] <annevk> that seems okayish too
  678. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> OK
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  680. # [18:22] <annevk> it's kinda weird path syntax allows both commas and whitespace as separators, but extra commas are problematic
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  685. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> yeah
  686. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> but hey why is something like <path stroke="#000" d="M 0,0,1,2,3,4 L5,5"/> valid?
  687. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> you're allowed to have an unlimited list of coordinate pairs for each command?
  688. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> Unlimited duplicates of the arg list.
  689. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> wtf
  690. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> why?
  691. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> Because the path syntax is heavily optimized for length, so omitting the letter from subsequent commands lets you drop one character.
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  693. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> ah
  694. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> I see
  695. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> I'm not a fan of the path syntax.
  696. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> I think anybody who's ever tried to write a parser for it is not a fan either
  697. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> Nah, parsing's easy.
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  702. # [18:33] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: seen the syntax3 stuff?
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  704. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Yup, I'm in the middle of a patch for one of the issues on my home computer.
  705. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> no hurry
  706. # [18:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: that one doesn't make much sense though
  707. # [18:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: the validator could issue a warning because when you duplicate M or m arguments you could write it more concise
  708. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> annevk: Nope, duplicate M commands can be useful. They define zero-length path segments, which get markers.
  709. # [18:35] <annevk> what's a marker used for?
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  711. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> It's a symbol placed at the vertexes between path segments.
  712. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> Used for, for example, arrowheads (placed on the last vertex), or circles-joints (placed at the internal vertexes).
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  714. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> anyway I guess I could at least have the error be "Expecting a coordinate pair for the M command but instead found unexpected character 'L' ." and "Expecting second coordinate of a coordinate pair for the M command but instead found unexpected character 'L' ."
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  764. # [19:44] <zcorpan> [tm]: i was expecting an error at all and a pointer to the first unexpected character in the value
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  778. # [20:02] <Ms2ger> annevk, heh, thunderbird thinks your ipv6 email is a scam
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  780. # [20:02] <annevk> really? not going to get much replies then :/
  781. # [20:03] <Ms2ger> Well, it still ended up in my inbox
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  783. # [20:05] <svl> Thunderbird's "scam" detection algorithm is rather laughable. Does it contain a link with an ip address => scam
  784. # [20:05] <svl> luckily it's only a warning message, not an actual filter
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  798. # [20:28] <annevk> I guess we'll see what happens with that message
  799. # [20:28] <annevk> I suspect there's not much interest in it from implementors anyway, until it starts biting them
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  801. # [20:34] <zcorpan> annevk: i'd say, just spec something that makes sense
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  821. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> FTR, official IETF 85 minutes: http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/85/minutes/minutes-85-websec (PDF)
  822. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> "Gordon Hemsley (not present) had taken on writing
  823. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> a mime
  824. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> sniffing document at
  825. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> WHAT
  826. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> WG. This has been a charter item in WebSec, but we have not done any
  827. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> work on this for over a year. The W3C has documents referencing the mime
  828. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> sniffing document. Nobody in the group objected to having this move to WHAT
  829. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> WG,
  830. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> and according to Larry Manister, the W3C is also fine with referencing the
  831. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> WHAT
  832. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> WG document, so the work item will be removed from our charter.
  833. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> "
  834. # [21:01] <GPHemsley> (terrible formatting, eh?)
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  852. # [21:35] * Ms2ger has heard Larry say some questionable things before
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  872. # [22:18] * abstractj|away is now known as abstractj
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  881. # [22:29] <Smylers> IETF minutes are published in PDF?
  882. # [22:31] <jwalden> that's...kind of funny
  883. # [22:32] * Joins: rniwa_ (~rniwa@17.245.107.140)
  884. # [22:32] * Ms2ger wonders if they get to use non-ASCII characters
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  889. # [22:39] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: What sort of madness are you talking about?
  890. # [22:40] <gsnedders> What is this non-ASCII of which you speak?
  891. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> Crossing from another IRC channel, what's the first browser you used?
  892. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> Whatever version of Netscape was built into AOL at the time.
  893. # [22:42] <gsnedders> IE4/Mac, I think.
  894. # [22:44] <Ms2ger> Wow, you had a mac at the time?
  895. # [22:44] <gsnedders> My father did. I didn't.
  896. # [22:44] * Ms2ger guesses Rick Waldron is a troll
  897. # [22:45] <gsnedders> What's his response?
  898. # [22:45] <Ms2ger> That people use vendor prefixes because they're in a spec, AFAICT
  899. # [22:46] * Quits: yoshiaki_ (~yoshiaki@p2028-ipngn3201marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  900. # [22:47] <divya> where is this from Ms2ger?
  901. # [22:47] * Joins: yoshiaki_ (~yoshiaki@p2028-ipngn3201marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  902. # [22:47] <Ms2ger> https://github.com/whatwg/javascript/issues/4#issuecomment-10386022
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  907. # [22:53] <jsbell> I think he's implying: developers use prefixed APIs despite them not being in a spec.
  908. # [22:54] <Ms2ger> Isn't that the opposite of the point he's trying to make?
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  910. # [22:55] <divya> rick waldron is saying that implementation requirements actually imply green light to using them
  911. # [22:55] <divya> or that is what i gathered Ms2ger
  912. # [22:56] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  913. # [22:56] <Ms2ger> I just can't square that with his latest comment
  914. # [22:56] <Ms2ger> (besides it being nonsense, of course)
  915. # [22:57] <jsbell> Yeah, I can't come up with a coherent stance for his comments.
  916. # [22:57] <jsbell> And: NCSA Mosaic on a Sun3 (I think).
  917. # [22:57] <Ms2ger> Can't beat that :)
  918. # [22:57] * linclark is now known as linclark|afk
  919. # [22:58] * Ms2ger wanders off
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  922. # [23:01] <miketaylr> funny i was just having this coversation with rwaldron in another chan
  923. # [23:01] * miketaylr gives up too
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  926. # [23:02] <gsnedders> MULTI-TASKING!
  927. # [23:02] <miketaylr> heh
  928. # [23:02] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.108.71)
  929. # [23:03] * GPHemsley used AOL 3.0 and/or Netscape 4.x
  930. # [23:04] <miketaylr> s/coversation/conversation/
  931. # [23:04] <GPHemsley> (depending on your definition)
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  963. # Session Close: Thu Nov 15 00:00:00 2012

The end :)